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Ok 25, I know you and Vanilla and some others don't like labels, but this guy is screaming from the high hilltops that he is NPD. He quit his dream job to screw you over in your divorce? He wants you to be evaluated? He is telling you what you need to do and where you need to move? This is textbook stuff. This is precisely why I have not filed for D. There is no wrath like the wrath of a narcissist pissed that someone is daring to move on from them. If I'm right and he is a befuddled as you say, this relationship will not last long (mine kept an on/off for 3 years when hidden, in the light of day it lasted less than 2 months).

As a lawyer you know that his un/under employment is a croc that you can challenge it. He is giving you lots of reasons to let go. You have the support of your kids, your intelligence, your compassion, and your drive. You will rise above this and flourish.

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NOTE: i read: " he owned my life "..

GET YOUR LIFE BACK... This is the love
You deserve.. it is your self- love!!!!

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Originally Posted By: 180Man
If my mother said...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

...and that's all you need to know"...

...it would piss me off. Even if it wasn't this subject matter and was none of my business. The nature of asking a question generally implies that the asker feels -- right or wrong -- they have a right to know, otherwise they wouldn't have asked in the first place (I know, I'm making a sweeping statement). I don't have a better answer for you, but some more neutral language may be better for the time being.

Is it possible H has had a small stroke or multiple silent-strokes? My F had a lot of micro/silent-strokes that went undetected for a long time. I'm actually not sure how long, to be honest. But his behavior changed and even though he was generally the same person, he did a lot of weird stuff. He had a small electronics company that was on the verge of closing some really big deals. I think some of them even closed and money had come in. Rather than...you know...work on the business, he decided he was going to buy some large short wave radio antennas in French Guiana and partner with a religious radio station and start some sort of short wave radio network. This had nothing to do with his business. I only talked to my F once about religion and he said he figured Jesus was a real guy who did a lot of great stuff but was probably not God in the flesh. I say this not to start a religious debate, but just to point out how completely strange and bizarre his activity was.

Anyways, just a stab in the dark based on your writings about H. As for being the WAS, don't even go there! Besides, if you are...then it doesn't sound like he's DBing very well!



Oh, to be clear, I DO think there's something wrong with h. His own L has told mine, the very same thing. That h is "so disorganized in thought, and won't focus except to complain about 25..."

Either he always had symptoms of whatever this ^^ is, and it's worsened or it's a new weird mental problem. H's mom was mentally ill and so was her mom and grandmother. (I swear I worried when I had a daughter, in case, you know?)

But h has always functioned well at work and been eccentric by some standards,

so maybe it's not the case. Of course he has supposedly officially quit his job in paradise Alaska. I simply don't know what his functioning is like now. His "MLC" 10 years ago was out of character in some respects. He stopped paying the bills on time and didn't tell me, and some bills he just dumped on me AGAIN without telling me. That was new behavior after 25 years of paying on time or early and it was part of why I thought MLC term might fit...so maybe every ten years he'll be an a$$.

You know, this is presently about survival for me. I have no control over h.

I did read about NPD and if I never looked at our past, during which I think he was a good h and father, I'd say there are parts of this that are very narcissistic.

If I only looked at his behavior the past decade - it has a lot of strange forms of manipulation and control, and subtle criticisms. And the fb post about how happy he is NOW strikes me as asinine, and or narcissistic. So over the top that I actually only had a gut punch for a few days. Then I stepped back and said "hey 25, this is weird as $hit. It's not about you and it's not about how 'happy' h is. It's over compensating or flaunting to hurt or whatever, but those behaviors are not a reflection on you."

And after awhile, those^^ words (mostly) sank in.

180---I hear you about the way to respond to the kids and not saying "that's all you need to know".

It's not the form of my answer I guess, so much as keeping them shut out. But it's not easy in terms of when they ask questions and the answer depends to an extent on what their dad does. My middle child is so pained by this that she does not speak of h at all, nor does she speak of the D, at all. she frequently calls to check on me and ask how I am and what I'm up to and is a little cheerleader for me grin

but she does not want to be in the middle of this. Our son asks direct questions and is very protective. Our youngest d is furious at h. She won't call him "dad" anymore, but calls him by his name...that is some anger.

When I look at h's history vis a vis d19, she has every right to be hurt and angry. But that's not my responsibility. They have clearly asked me not to defend him, to them. So I won't.

My guess is that he's blasted me to them, or whined or whatever & they don't want me to feel inappropriate loyalty. Maybe that's why they don't want me to defend him

OR maybe they see his behavior more clearly than I have in the past...


ugh! cry


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: OwnIt
Ok 25, I know you and Vanilla and some others don't like labels, but this guy is screaming from the high hilltops that he is NPD. He quit his dream job to screw you over in your divorce? He wants you to be evaluated? He is telling you what you need to do and where you need to move? This is textbook stuff.

Good (gross) points. H also hired L's up in Alaska which I assume means he wants the venue up there. Which would not be financially good for me (though A is grounds for divorce there) but which is unlikely to prevail. It's stupid, actually. Expensive. At the start of this D process h asked me if he needed a L...

God, I wish I'd said something selfish and unethical like "oh, no you don't need another L. Let's just use mine..." Instead I said we should both have representation but that I would hope he'd spend OUR money on this lawyer (me) b/c I had his children. And unless he wants to make new "25's H" law, there is a formula...

I guess he does want to make new "25's H" law. I think h expected me to write up a 2 page divorce decree and split what H felt was fair, and go our separate ways painlessly...but since I filed in California, that's state's laws apply (as we lived there 16 years)

which h disliked, evidently.




This is precisely why I have not filed for D. There is no wrath like the wrath of a narcissist pissed that someone is daring to move on from them. If I'm right and he is a befuddled as you say, this relationship will not last long (mine kept an on/off for 3 years when hidden, in the light of day it lasted less than 2 months).

Own,

you can be right about his underlying mental issues, but I think he's cornered himself into marrying OW. How can he publicly declare news about OW (and imply that THIS IS THE ONE!!) (after a 35 year marriage and 3 kids) unless he marries her?

Wouldn't that make him "wrong"???

Of course I don't know what her expectations are but if they are that she's marrying a rich MD, who is now unemployed, well, like I said, I don't know her expectations

Oh I do know that h will inherit millions and she's seen the property that he'll get half of. SO maybe that's their plan.

I have no control over that.

I also think the anger h feels at me is stunning and weird and nutty and unfair and rich with irony.

This is the man who was AWOL when I was hospitalized. Just inexcusable and appalling. He obviously doesn't see it that way (or doesn't look at it at all)

but I do not expect any approach from him. Sure, the ego wants him to at least probe so I can hear that all is not well in paradise.

But other times I just pretend he's passed away (not in a punitive way) so that he's simply not a factor in my life. IT's weird and surreal, b/c of the length of the m.

H must be blaming me for every single problem in HIS life. So, he'll show me!




As a lawyer you know that his un/under employment is a croc that you can challenge it.

It is being challenged this Monday morning (prayers welcome). H now claims he "just wants to retire", and h is 60. There is case law that would help him IF his retirement were done in good faith.

But his whole reason for going there, other than its paradise, was to make a gazillion dollars and he showed me the contract he was signing to work up there. The plan was to become a partner and then sell it in a "few years" and make millions.

So, that's not a "retirement" plan. That is an income ability and an investment I equipped him to make, while moving 9 times in 17 years for his career...not mine.

But I don't know what his legal strategy is. I can only guess and it makes my head hurt.

Hence - cry tired



He is giving you lots of reasons to let go. You have the support of your kids, your intelligence, your compassion, and your drive. You will rise above this and flourish.


I agree.

I THINK once the finances are "worked out fairly" and I can actually know what my budget is, I'll totally let go, whatever that looks like.

H has been and would continue to be a lousy h for me, going forward.

If he is ill AND IF he gets help, and wants back in and is doing all the work needed for me to trust him again


Oh wow, I'm laughing & SMH as I write this^^ all out now. Um, it's Not gonna happen.

I just want this legal financial quagmire over, but with a good result. A fair result. (And if ALL of those recon conditions occurred, trust me, I'd be back on these boards with a whole new thread, and asking for some 2 x 4's).

I don't think I'll cave in either.

I mean, it's one thing to lose in court, which could happen & would be terrible for me. And which would force me onto a new path.

It's another thing to give up, which I won't do. I deserve better.

I so appreciate the feedback.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

OR maybe they see his behavior more clearly than I have in the past...[/color]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That sums it all up. They can see the contrast between their parents and what's going on between them without you having to say much. Complaining about their father is one thing. Being straight up with them and telling them facts is something else. If you pursue the latter, to whatever extent you feel comfortable, the kids can make their own conclusions -- clearly they already have. I understand you don't want them to turn against one parent or another, but it's not like this stuff won't come out eventually. So, tell them what you must, spare them what you can, and let the chips fall where they may.

I was looking through some of my Chinese literature and came across two different quotes by Te-Ch'ing (1546-1623) that made me think of you...and, honestly, all of us.

"When opponents are evenly matched and neither is superior, the winner is hard to determine. But whichever one is remorseful and compasionate will win. For the Way of Heaven is to love life and to help those who are compassionate to overcome their enemies."

"The ancients said that the word
understanding was the door to all mysteries as well as the door to all misfortune. If you realize that you don't understand, you eliminate false understanding. This is the door to all mysteries. If you cling to understanding while trying to discover what you don't understand, you increase the obstacles to understanding. This is the door to all misfortune."


This second quote is his commentary on what Lao-Tzu wrote a millennia before him:

"To understand yet not understand
is transcendence
not to understand yet understand
is affliction
the reason sages aren't afflicted is because they treat affliction as affliction
hence they aren't afflicted"


Haha, okay I'll stop now. I'm probably waaaay overthinking this.


M-32 W-32 (both military)
T-8 M-6
PA Oct/Nov 16 (happened twice)
Discovered PA 11/30/16
S 12/1/16
MC 12/1/16 - 1/18/17
BD 1/18/17
A continues? 1/24/17 texts resume with W & OM
W Filed 3/8/17
W Deploys 7/17
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25,
Reading your last few posts, a swirl of memories has come flooding back to me from my first marriage and horrible, awful divorce. I hesitate to post anything back to you that smacks of my having any answers, because you are so great with words and your advice to so many hurting people on here is so straight on point, that I am a little intimidated to try to reach out to you. But I can't keep silent right now. So here's my $.2.
My EX-H (who I was married to for 22 years, and have been divorced from for more than 15 years), is and was a raging, textbook narcissist. Your H doesn't sound like a straight up, always been one, but does show many of the characteristics. When we went through our divorce, our children were 17 and 20. Son had moved out to college, daughter still at home in HS. They had their own struggles with H through the years-son was more like me, non-confrontative, people-pleaser, just get through the day and keep H from being upset, so he dealt with his emotions and bottled up anger through drug abuse, and has now been to rehab twice. I'm not blaming H for it, but dulling the pain was certainly something we all became experts in. My daughter was much more like her dad, and would welcome a heated debate with him, but could never hone the skills to beat him at his own game, so she dealt with her frustration by bulimia. When she confided in me, I immediately took her straight to a counselor, who over the years, I think, saved us all. In one of the first counseling meetings with H, D and me, H said, and I quote, "YOU WILL NOT THROW UP IN MY HOUSE. I WILL LOCK EVERY BATHROOM DOOR AND SHOW YOU WHO CONTROLS WHETHER YOU THROW UP OR NOT." Yes, he truly saw himself in a position to control bathroom privileges by locks, I guess forgetting that throwing up does not require a toilet. D, counselor and me just stared at him incredulously. He never got it. So, his plan "kind of" worked. She did eventually quit throwing up. She also quit eating. When she was down to 75 lbs. and near hospitalization, I began to re-think the wisdom in staying with this man who I did not even recognize anymore. Through 2 more years of counseling, sometimes 3 times a week, as she became stronger and wiser, so did I. As she turned a corner in therapy, so did I, right along with her. When she was finally stable enough and strong enough, I attempted to leave him. God forbid, no one had ever stood up to him. He fought me with everything he had, every dollar, every threat, everything. Not because he loved me, but because he would not give up control. Police were involved and even had to arrest him twice. Tires were cut, HVAC units in my rental were destroyed, a private inves was hired to follow me, H followed me, sat outside my apt at night, tried to set me up for a DUI-it goes on and on. And it didn't stop when divorce was final either. To this day, I have to block him on every available source- social media, phone, email, everything- and we have both been married to other people for over TEN YEARS NOW. The whole reason I tell you all this sordid tale (besides the fact that once I started I couldn't stop so evidently I needed to vent ONE MORE TIME) is the way my children have reacted to the saga over the years. They are now 31 and 34, and both doing wonderfully, both in long term relationships, both working in professional jobs, and as far as I can tell, dealing with their own demons/addictions keeping them in check. I shielded them from the things I could, and although they witnessed way too much, I realize now in conversations the 3 of us have, there are many, many things they were never aware of, and for that I am thankful. They both have come to a place where they tolerate a relationship with their dad, but can only stand it in very small doses, maybe an hour at a time, before he blows and tries to draw them into something, oftentimes still bringing up me. He will always be angry that I was able to leave him. I believe he would kill me if given the chance, even now. They stop him in his tracks, and don't allow the conversations to continue, and they freely tell me all this. The 3 of us have a bond that will never be broken, because in many ways, we withstood the storm together and we all survived. It took years for them to, over time, ask me about specifics of things that he had told them (lies, absurd lies) about facts that could have easily been proven or not, and I've been able to clear up some of those things, but honestly, after they began to see the pattern of his craziness, it started to matter less and less to them. The truth of people's inside light WILL come out, over time, without any help from us. Your children sound very healthy, and grounded, and they have a wise, steady, calm role model in you. They will see all they need and make their own evaluations of both you and their dad, especially as they grow and mature. As far as what to tell them, I'd say as little as is necessary, and maybe just be honest and say exactly why- he will always be your dad, and the relationship you have with him is exactly that- yours. You're not going to trash the man to them, of course, but I don't think you have to do anything but let them love him as best they can, b/c God know, he's going to need someone to love him in the years to come-it sounds like he's busy burning bridges now and with that personality, will probably continue that path. Not your problem, though. The kids will know, and their respect and admiration for you will only become stronger as they face trials of their own, and they look back and remember how you withstood yours as a brave, strong, confident woman. Trust me on that.
Sorry for the hijack about me- it didn't start out that way, but as you point out, just saying it out loud is so healing sometimes. Breathe in, breathe out.
Thanks again for your commitment to this forum and all the time you take to help hurting people. It's a real gift you have, and you're using it so well.


M-60 H-51
M-14 years
BD 12/26/16
S 1/1/17

"First the pain, then the rising."
Glennon Doyle Melton

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180

I'm going to read these carefully and ponder them. I like them.

And I'm comfortable with the "mystery of faith" and trying to be fine with uncertainty. I don't have to have all the answers, (though I thought I did 10 years ago.)

I think we learn to accept what is, even while never knowing exactly why another person does something.

Maybe we just have to know why WE do something.

Thanks


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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Leahsue

I will re-read your post, I'm sure. I can say "WTF?" for your experience with your ex. I mean, damn. Especially with the thought that you fear for your life.


Reminds me of a murder case I was familiar with. A divorce and custody issues were involved. And the stbxh murdered his 3 children while his w was out jogging. He also took his own life.

He knew his xw would be the one to find the slain children, and he did not want her to die. He wanted her to suffer. Then, to avoid facing the consequences of his own actions, he took his own life. That's some serious cowardly evil.

So be careful, Leahsue, geez.

I'm glad h is not living near me & I don't have to worry about running into him. OR worse...

OH one upside to all the recent crap, is seeing h more clearly.

H totally not having my back when I was sick is the worst thing he's ever done in our m, that I know of--. So no, I don't think affairs are the "Worst thing possible".

See, to me affairs are lousy but I can at least understand the temptation.

But abandoning me when I was sick - and he's an MD - is indefensible. Oddly selfish.
And It is truly something I do not think I will ever understand.

When he finally retrieved me to fly back west, as I was not able to travel alone, we were at my sisters house for the night before the flight.

He stared out a window and turned to her and said "isn't life beautiful??" to my sister, with a weird strange smile on his face. I hoped it was b/c I was recovering but she said "no, 25, that's not how it came out at all."

This "isn't life beautiful??" was said the day after I got out of the neurological ward, from which 40% of the patients never depart...This sister had been terrified for me, as were all my siblings and our children. So even if he was in La La land about the OW or the tundra paradise, or the millions of $$ he'd make all on his own

to say it to my sister, with a smile on his face is simply...NOT NORMAL...incredible lack of social context and no self awareness. I see this small statement as more significant now. Oh, btw, my sister is a calm loving rational woman. She told me it's the first time in her life she "wanted to smash someone in the face."

Oh and the - quitting his GREAT job to avoid paying support, to arguing I should leave my family & friends here behind, to hang a shingle out in Texas b/c, you know, that's where I'm licensed (licensed there, to fit h's future needs but I digress) and I guess starting a law practice is free...

and all the other maneuvers and FB weirdness in my face, and wanting our kids to hear all about how great OW is--(you know, the one he met the day after I filed...yeah, okay...well)

I am not missing this ^^ man very much. My mourning period is shortening rapidly.

Legal/money worries aside, I'm getting comfortable thinking

"Good riddance to lunacy". This man cannot possibly be the man to whom I'm supposed to be married.


I'd rather be alone than with this^^ guy, and yes, I mean that.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 561
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Yes, I totally agree. Saying an affair is the worst that can happen, to me is like saying, "Thank the Lord, I'm getting married. Now I'll never be lonely again." HA. The loneliest times in my life have not been when I was alone, but laying right next to someone in the marital bed. But you can't know that until you've been there. I think a better way of phrasing it would be, "So far, in my personal experience, an affair has been the worst thing that has ever happened to me." As we both know, in any relationship, an affair can be the worst, until the next worst thing happens. Betrayal by a loved one can come in so many forms. And it's a personal decision which betrayals can be forgiven and worked through, and all decisions should be respected as just that, personal decisions. Just my 2 cents.
Recently, as I was describing the philosophy of DB to my married D31, she was very thoughtful for a minute, then said, "If Daddy had known about DB and had implemented some of those practices, do you think things would have turned out differently for the two of you?" After carefully thinking about it, I think possibly I may have returned to the marriage, but I truly believe he only wanted us to reconcile so that he could be the one to leave me, instead of his being left. So ultimately, I believe it would have ended. If not then, certainly when our son came out of the closet, we'd not have been able to work through that together, because we still don't agree about loving our son unconditionally. I guess you can imagine which side of that we each fall on. LOL. ExH would still enroll him in a facility to "change him back" if son were not a strong, capable, nurse practitioner who knows and is proud of who he is today, and will tell his dad in a NY minute where he can take his "facility". Just thinking out loud again.
I need to go for a run or a swim, or work in my garden, before I totally take over your thread. I truly don't know why this venting today, but it sure has lifted a burden off me that I didn't realize was there until I felt the lightness. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, safe in the knowledge that your H is a fool of the biggest variety, and you deserve the cream of the crop, so much more than he will ever be able to offer you without some serious metamorphosis. smile


M-60 H-51
M-14 years
BD 12/26/16
S 1/1/17

"First the pain, then the rising."
Glennon Doyle Melton

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Thanks for the input.

Lots of ponder. Don't know how to feel about this next comment yet,

but when I somehow circumvent the worries about money, (or if I assume the best for me in court),

my sadness and anxiety about being on my own, plummet & My hope & optimism rise.

Hmmm...


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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