My Story

[job]

You made several references to a "relationship" and even though you were indicating as a friend, he's not ready to go that route yet. You are still expecting him to behave a certain way...drop your expectations.

"ME: You always say you want to be my best friend. So, act like it. Here's your chance to do something. Show up for me."

This particular comment is "relationship talk":

"ME: Somewhere in there is the H that loves me."

To your h, you are still trying to reach him. Even though you may not consider these comments are relationship talk, they are. You have to keep your expectations at zero and accept him for who he is today. Right now, he's incapable of being the man you want him to be. He's depressed and w/depression comes that feeling of being incapable of loving anyone, anything and most of all himself.

The rest of your conversation was good at validating. Try to stay away from any type of relationship talk, that includes being a friend to you and loving you. You are putting too much pressure on him and he's going to hem and haw about his feelings and even may clam up and not talk to you at all.

I'm sorry to read that you had an accident rock climbing. I hope you are okay. Hopefully you will be up and about very soon and get back to rock climbing.

[Surv1ve]

I "only" have a ligament tendon injury. I am glad it's not broken, but part of my GAL has been intense physical activity almost every day and I know it's been a huge part of maintaining my sanity. It will only be a couple of weeks, but yikes.

Thank you for the feedback, and yes that makes sense.

Last night, as we were driving, I was talking about how much I'm looking forward to scuba diving this summer and all of the Wednesdays I plan to take off to hang out on the community boat. H and I used to be on this boat every Wednesday and most Saturdays before we had our D10. I said, "And, maybe you'll come with me sometimes."

H: Yeah, maybe. There's such a shift in the way that you're thinking about diving. You used to be completely unwilling to go without me and now you're going with or without me. That must have been in something you read somewhere about detaching. (I guess he listens, and maybe I should talk less.)
Me: Hmm. I am not sure if I read it or not. I just know that I love diving and it's super grounding for me and I can't let that rest on whether or not you want to go.
H: That makes sense.

So, I came home from the hospital alone today. H works from home and I know he gets into anxiety fits when I'm home because he wonders if I'm going to pounce him for R talks (which I would do sometimes before BD#2 in late March). So, I walked in the door and said, "I have no intention of seeking your time and attention, so you don't need to go spinning. If there are other boundaries you need, it's your responsibility to let me know but I will respect them." Then, I put on my headphones and watched Survivor on the computer next to his while playing some computer games. It seems to have gone ok.

Would it be better if I just did the headphones/tv without saying so? I'm trying to clearly indicate that I intend to give him emotional space so he can calm the [censored] down, but it also feels like something I can give or take when I announce it like that and it makes me feel like I'm still in the control position.

[job]

Me, personally, I would have just put the headphones on and gone about my business. The less you say, the better when it comes to them.

A ligament tendon injury can take just as long, and sometimes, longer than a break to heal.

I'm going to suggest that you slow down, less talking to him about stuff and just listen. Allow him to come to you if he wants to talk. Sometimes less is far better.

Take a deep breath and know that tomorrow is a new day.

Take care of that injury!

[Surv1ve]

I live in a town home. Mortgage paid. There has been on and off again discussion of buying a duplex, but I am unwilling bc it's a huge financial risk to take on a new mortgage, especially as housing prices are much higher than they were 15+ years ago when we bought this house for 135k.

The town home immediately next door is going for sale and there has already been a "joke" by H about buying it and then having a duplex. I laughed with him bc it was a "joke.". But, I am waiting for someone to pit.it forward as a real suggestion. If h is going to move out eventually, the house next door sounds good to me. More contact while I wait for the alien that has abducted him to go elsewhere. But, I also know they can't afford it (would now be 320) and we have about 1k per month that doesn't go to bills. The two of them would need my income and there is no way on this planet I am contributing to them financially. I imagine H hasn't looked into how divorce works in terms of credit (spousal support, child support as debt), no mortgage company will mortgage until there's a separation agreement in writing, and has an unrealistic concept of what our incomes are capable of.

If/when this is broached, I guess I shrug and tell him to by all means explore it and refrain from sharing all the stuff I've learned about property division and let him figure it out himself. Heck, maybe him figuring out the numbers will knock some sense into him.

Other thoughts?

Also, fell into a funk without my exercise. Brutal. Silly injury.

[OwnIt]

Don't know if this helps, but my H keeps suggesting that I sell our home and move 15 minutes away from him because it would be more convenient (when I first learned about OW1 he said he was moving out of state to be with her and I should move there with the kids because it would be more convenient for him). My counselor told me to respond that I was thinking about it or taking it under consideration. Which is what I did. He sends me listings now from time to time and I don't respond to him. Seems to be working. I think you could try the same thing. I definitely would not enlighten them in any way.

[Surv1ve]

Everything is helpful, OwnIt, thank you. It hasn't been brought up again.

So, it's been a month since H said he's definitely moving out. We just planned my daughter's birthday party for June 3 at the cottage owned by H's parents based on the assumption that all three grownups will sleep there. I imagine I saw steam coming out of EX/OM's ears.

There are moments when I think H is softening and I a DYING to ask but I have managed to bite my tongue on that one. So hard, because my tongue goes.

My D10's guide troop is going rock climbing next week. I am the parent who organizes all of D10's guide activities, fills out the forms, etc. so, a few weeks ago when H informed me that he would be taking D10 to this week's rock climbing activity and acting as a volunteer belayer (and assuming that I would stay home with S8), I was confused. I sat with it for a couple of days and then told him that I would also like to go. This is an activity my daughter organized; she suggested it as a badge, designed the badge, and then set the requirements for achieving the badge. I want to see how she navigates this. So, after a few days of sitting with the expectation that I look after S8, I told him I would organize babysitting. He then told me, "But, your elbow..." which I recently injured. I told him my elbow would be fine. Then and only then, he said, "Well, okay, but you should probably know that EX/OM is also planning to be there."

Which made me feel so awful. EX/OM has standing plans on Mondays and it became obvious that H was trying to avoid this conversation. H then said, "I have been asking EX/OM to tell you, but they haven't brought it up yet and every time i get in the middle, it goes south."

I just told him that my expectation is that we can all go to family events and that I'm happy to share space and be polite and even warm, but that I am unwilling to not be present in the important events in my kids' lives.

When the three of us finally touched base, EX/OM said, "I just don't want to go and pretend to be one big happy family anymore. It feels like a lie."

I did mess up in directly asking H if my elbow had been an attempt to avoid the conversation. He outright denied it (which I do not believe at all) and got flustered about it. I could have left the accusation out, for sure, even if it's true. It didn't help me in filling the positivity bucket.

I said, "We'll be doing this for the rest of our lives, no matter what happens from here. I'm happy to talk about safety and to negotiate things we might need from each other. But, my choice is to go and that is my choice to make. I hope you also choose to go, but that is your choice to make." And, then I left the house for my massage and I had purposely timed the conversation for right before I had to leave.

There have been a few times in the last few days that EX/OM's refusal to make amends with me has meant that we can't spend family time together and H seems really sad about it. I have been actively thanking EX/OM for things EX/OM does well and showing appreciation and warmth towards EX/OM. And, I feel like H sees it.

On Wednesday, he came upstairs to say goodnight to me as I'd gone to make a phone call and when I came home after the massage, he'd waited up with me to close the conversation. He's actively said that my choosing to be present for my kids is understandable and reasonable without me asking.

I am trying so hard not to rock the boat or cause any tension, but I draw the line at retreating from my childrens' activities, things I would go to in any situation.

There are moments when EX/OM seems to be softening, too. I have provided a lot of empathy lately to EX/OM in places where career hopes haven't panned out -- denied a job EX/OM thought was guaranteed, being closed off another one. My strategy lately seems to be kill both of them with kindness and warmth.

I think I need a written plan of my future intentions. Does anyone have a template they've used. I need to write it down and look at it all the time.

One day at a time.

[Surv1ve]

So, I took today off as a sick day. While I was home, H asked me if I would be willing to Talk. Last week, I invited him to share his anger with me and told him I really wanted to know why he is so enraged with me and to own the parts that I can. So, he said he wanted to tell me.

He primarily talked about my unwillingness to directly discuss separation without a lawyer. I validated and reflected and didn't even discuss my choice. I just echoed that he feels trapped by it and he doesn't feel like he has a choice at all. He talked about the house next door, more seriously, and I asked, "Where do you see the money coming from?" and then he started doing math in his head and realized he can't afford it and won't be able to afford it anytime soon. And, then I asked him to talk about his older anger from before this and he did share some things with me that I'd done from January to September when the fear of abandonment was eating me alive. I listened, empathized, validated, and apologized and told him that I hope he can forgive me.

He says that he thinks it will take 3 to 6 months for us to hash out all the details of separation. He talked about how fearful and afraid and anxious he is all the time. When I said, "And, you think that will all stop when you've moved out?" he said, "No. No, I don't think it will. But I need to do SOMETHING
It is so hard not to scream in those moments how much worse I think he will feel when he has devastated his kids and is also poor but I kept my big trap shut and just said, "It feels like there's no way out, eh?"

I asked to speak to the part of him that wants to stay married to me and he fidgeted a bunch and then nodded his head. I kept it to less than 5 minutes and just asked what that guy needs to see and H said for EX/OM to get along and for him to trust me. I owned a bunch of things that belong to me without begging or grovelling or beating myself up and then I shut the conversation down.

So, after 6 weeks of me trying REALLY hard not to initiate R talks, he finally initiated one and I think I handled it pretty well overall.

[Surv1ve]

I would really love some feedback.

Yesterday afternoon, EX/OM took the 20 minutes before kids came home to announce that they had "some difficult things to say" and that they had contacted a lawyer to initiate separation who would be sending along a request for financial disclosure, the first step.

I think I handled it fairly well in that I was super calm, reiterated that all communication would remain between the lawyers, and said, "I see a way through this, but I know that you don't." I then asked to speak to H alone and spent that time asking him how he was doing. He told me that he knew that EX/OM went to see a lawyer but that he was unaware they were taking imminent action. He said things like, "not ready to throw in the towel" and then also stated a bunch of things about the changes he has seen in me in the last few months that EX/OM doesn't see. I said, "Must be really stressful for you. And, change takes time to see. It will take EX/OM longer." H actually spent some time strategizing with me how to regain EX/OM's trust while also lamenting the fact that he now needs to find his own lawyer.

I plan to drag my feet as much as I possibly can. I know I have 30 business days once I receive the notice to comply. I also kept right on going in the same direction and then spent some time laughing and goofing off with EX/OM who seemed more open to me than EX/OM has been in a long time. In some ways, this changes nothing. I'm still grounding, upbeat, GAL'ing, happy and trying to show that I am doing things differently and that I'm the better option if we need to choose.

What do I need to remember? How do I interact with EX/OM ? It is so frustrating that the person occupying the role of the OW actually has power to initiate any kind of legal proceedings, which forces H's hand before he would move it on his own. It is going to stress H out to no end, and I am trying to brace myself for that fallout if it should head my way. Breathe, breathe, breathe.

[Coly23]

Hey Surv1ve, sorry you were pounced on to have that conversation with EX/OM. I sometimes feel they like the power of making it an us and you type scenario. Two against one. It's very unfair.

I think the vets like Job will have a better idea of what to do however in mho I would sit back and let it unfold. From what you say here EX/OM is bulldozing H in to moving faster when he is not ready. Their desperation is showing and it will ultimately be there downfall. Just keep doing what you doing. Zero relationship talks and be the calm (the lighthouse) in the storm that is brewing around you.

Take care.

[Surv1ve]

Thanks Coly.

I will say that the silver lining for me was definitely hearing my H make statements of not being ready and reconsidering. They were subtle and I barely acknowledged hearing them to him (so proud of myself), but they were definitely there. "I just don't think you're the emotional, unstable manipulative person they think you are. You might have been before, but you're not now. You're taking so much accountability."

Like, wow. And, just nodding and saying, "I am working hard on myself, but it takes a long time to rebuild trust."

I am sure I would not have heard those things if he hadn't been so taken off guard by EX/OM's statement, and I also can't quite believe EX/OM didn't tell him first. Whoah.

I guess my 180 was, after being told this stressful news, I went right back to my life, did the dishes, did my kid work, etc. Before, I would have sobbed and cried uncle and said that there was no way I could do those grown up things, but I was pretty much unphased and just went right back to life as we know it. It wasn't even an act or an "as if". I really was incredibly calm.

The other day, H came down from trying to console my D10 and he explained to me why it was irrational for her to have a meltdown when she did. I said, "You didn't say that to her, did you?" He said, "No," and walked off. When I went to check in on D10, she told me that H didn't believe her and then explained why, which was basically that he tried to logic her out of her feelings with the same data he had told me about. So, he lied to me. After everything was taken care of with D10, I went and apologized to H because, as much as it drives be bonkers that he tries to logic her (and historically me) out of my feelings and then lied to her, I also asked that question, "You didn't say that to her, did you?" in a super judgemental, value driven voice which communicated that only an idiot would do that. So, he said no to avoid a conflict.

Me: Hey, I realize you lied to me because my statement must have come across as an accusation. There are so many better ways I could have asked you about your interactions with D10. I will do a better job.
H: Yeah, I mean, I could have done better there.
Me: I'm not here to tell you what you could have done better. That's up to you. I'm here to tell you that I realize that my question felt more like an accusation and I created an environment that was unsafe for you to tell me the truth. My goal is to support you in your parenting style with D10, and that's not how I can accomplish that.
H: You're apologizing to me?
Me: Yup. My job is to figure out what I own and how I can do better, and that's what I came up with.

Then I walked away in the middle of his stunned and confused look. I am learning so much about myself and what I contribute, and I have to say that those stunned confused looks are fun and tell me I'm 180ing like a boss.

But, I don't know how to 180 with EX/OM to create the rethink. Maybe you're right, Coly. Maybe the H will resent the pressure and that works in my favor. I keep trying to tell myself that I can't control and predict those dynamics and I just have to keep myself steady on my course.