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Originally Posted By: Thornton
Well, just had a big R talk.

W saw me typing on my phone, I was writing my previous post on this board.

She then quickly left the room and I could tell she was crying. She texted me from her room asking if I was already talking to someone else.

So... I walked into her room and told her no I'm not talking to anyone else and that her leaving was the last thing I wanted. She cried some more and said that I Broke her heart and she looks at me differently now. That the love is gone. I told her that 2 arguments in 10 months was not worth throwing our family away.

You're telling her what to feel^^ and you are trying to argue your way into staying m. I don't think you should be telling her she's wrong to feel as she feels. Plus you raise the 2 arguments and for all you know, they were traumatic to her OR there are dozens of disputes she felt, that you are not aware of.

Bottom line is I don't think you can talk and argue your way out of a spouse leaving.


She replied that she doesn't trust us anymore. I told her I respected her decision to leave but I didn't agree with it. I apologized again for the part I played in this but told her I couldn't change the past.

Not sure how long this^^ took, but after maybe a minute, you need to leave. You owned your part (I assume that's true) and you said you cannot change the past. That's it. Nothing else to say, plus the more you keep talking the more it's clear you do NOT respect her decision b/c you want to keep harping at it. Do what you say.



She told me she didn't trust love anymore and just wanted to be alone with her daughter. This is exactly what she said the last 2 times and I reminded her of it.

She said this time it's different. I said "you said that the last 2 times".


Thornton, why did you tell her it's the same thing she said last time? To me, that comes off as daring her to mean it this time, and I know that's not what you meant to do.

Do you see my point? -- it's like saying "W I've heard THAT before" or "Yeah well, you said it before but you obviously did not really mean it..."

Anyhow, please don't bother trying to correct it now. It'll only highlight the parts of this you need to ignore, b/c you want her threats to be hollow. Don't motivate her to make them true.

What was revealed in ^^THIS R talk, that she does not already know?

To me, you pushed her a bit into cementing, defending and repeating her choices,
rather than letting her have the mental (and physical) space to ponder or examine them.


I probably ruined any chance of repairing our R by having that R talk

Thornton, You think one conversation does all that? Come on, you know better...

but I needed to say something. Now she knows exactly how I feel. That's all I can do.

I hate this.



If you really believe she did not know how you feel before, cry

then I guess she knows now. And you do NOT have to repeat it.

Sometimes more words are not more "Weighty". There is power in the economy of words.


And the remarks that she "said that before" just makes her want to mean it more "this time."

Inadvertently you challenged her to defend the choices she is making. You SAY you "respect her choices, but..."

and then you keep at her about those choices. Back off.

Trust me, she's not indifferent.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Thank you, 25.

Honestly, I wonder if I'm subconsciously pushing her to end it.

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Hi Thornton, just dropping by to offer moral support. I'm sorry you had the R talk. I guess they just aren't very productive when they happen. And it must have been hard hearing stuff you heard previously too. Remember that people say stuff based on how they feel right now. And also know that feelings can (and often do) change. Both hers and yours..

I was really interested in the couple of posts before the one above - from Zues and your response. These are areas to focus on for sure. I have never yet seen someone post - well gosh darn I took the path of growth and I really regret that. If we choose the path of growth, I don't believe we can lose - whatever the outcome of the relationship situation.

In your sitch, I strongly believe it's important to work on you. If we think ahead to some possible outcomes:

You reconcile....but you worry this could happen again because you know you depend on her so much

You don't reconcile....and you dread the one bed apartment and the TV dinner

Or you choose the path of growth...

You reconcile....if you would still consider a R with her...and the new R is on a more sustainable footing with a stronger, more independent you..

You don't reconcile...and you genuinely look forward to what life has to offer as you feel more comfortable in your own skin..

It's a win win I think :-)


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Originally Posted By: Thornton
You hit the nail on the head, Zeus.

This is such an engrained behavior/belief system for me. I do have very short bursts of clarity where I realize I'm strong enough to make it on my own. And that I might even be better off without W and her issues that she's never been willing to address or work on.

Thornton, if you w were never to address those issues within her, and her unusual r with her mom continued- I venture to say there's no way you will be happy and secure in this m. You're not happy now, and it would be more of the same. The only way to predict future behavior is to look at past behavior, for both parties.

Since you have a d16 and are 40+, can you tell me what your life was like before you met your w? And what was your R like with your D before you met W?

I'm just trying to see what is is you are so attached to, compared to your life before. I sense a serious abandonment fear in you, and that's pretty much in your sandbox, not your w's. Do you get what I'm saying?


But those fleeting thoughts are short lived at best. Watching W walk away is like watching a part of me walking away, leaving me a shell of myself.

^^this scares the hell out of me.


Can you say what specifically scares the hell out of you? What is the worst thing or the biggest fear? I mean, like "If w leaves I will....what?"

always be alone? Never have friends? Never have sex again? Die in a ditch, undiscovered for weeks until the wolves find you?

I'm sort of kidding, but mostly want you to realize that the worst possible scenario is

1) survivable and 2) something you can affect.




I've suppose I've never developed the ability to soothe myself. I'd almost always stuff my feelings or run from them. Denial is a coping mechanism for me.




Please share this^^ with your IC. It is valuable info.

Denial is not a coping mechanism; it's the opposite. It is a way to pretend you don't have to cope.

The inability to soothe oneself or affirm oneself means that there is a lot of emotional draining and exhausting of those around you, in order for you to feel okay enough to function, let alone feel good about yourself.

That is precisely because you do not know how to soothe yourself and it's a basic life skill one must gain to function well in healthy relationships.

It's not your w's job or your d's job, to "make" you feel good about yourself.

No one can compensate you for your haunting self doubt or childhood traumas and unresolved issues. Your w has some of her own, to be sure. But Thornton, you know you have a lot of work in your own sandbox, correct?

The inability to soothe or comfort or affirm yourself, to feel a basic Relational confidence is a great insight for you to have.

It's a valuable starting point for you with your IC. Have you discussed it?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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hey 25,

Love your insight as always.

I have discussed this with my C. I'm a codependent. Basically, in order for me to heal, I need to be alone. I realize that I have so many issues to deal with. I should have plenty of time when W leaves. There's no way around it.

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Originally Posted By: Thornton
W saw me typing on my phone, I was writing my previous post on this board.


Is there an app that your use for the board or do you just do it from the browser?

Originally Posted By: Thornton
She cried some more and said that...
I Broke her heart and she looks at me differently now. That the love is gone.
She replied that she doesn't trust us anymore.
She told me she didn't trust love anymore


Man this is exactly, and I mean exactly the same words my WW spoke to me the last time we sat and talked. I know exactly how you feel Thorn but I'm not as attached. I couldn't imagine being in the same house with her. You are stronger then you realize.

One day at a time brother. For me realizing I will be fine without her has helped the most. It is not what I want but I can move forward now.


M 8 yrs
EA 6/16
PA 09/16
Separated 10/16
WW moves out 11/16
D Filed 11/16, Hearing 05/08/17
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Here is what I wrote from 2014 about this. Kind of rambling, I was trying to sort this out.

Quote:
I met with my therapist today and think I uncovered the source of my low self-worth, fear of abandonment, co-dependency, pretty much the whole picture. It is DISSOCIATION!!! Basically, when I was young I went through some scary and intense times in my house. Long story short, I decided I didn’t want to deal with emotions, and instead lived in my head. I told myself I didn’t feel anything. And it worked…to a point.

The problem is that those emotions didn’t go away. It was like the 11 year old child inside of me that needed love, attention, comfort, nourishment, etc, got beat for being a pest and locked away in the closet. This hurt myself, but I didn’t look at it because I stayed too busy.

So low self worth…I never validated my OWN emotions. Fear of abandonment…I abandoned MYSELF! Read through the cycles below and watch how it played out.

Lately I’ve been trying to get more in touch with my emotions. They’re not fun to deal with, but I’m not running from them. I’m going to feel them and be strong enough to deal. I’m going to live in the real world. It’s not fun to be mortal but I can’t live in a fantasy world anymore.

And I’m proud of myself. I hurt but I’ll be OK. I’m not perfect but I’m special. And I’m excited to learn that by facing my emotions I don’t have to live in fear of crashing, fear of rejection, and fear of self loathing. It’s the first time in my life I haven’t been afraid and I feel great! I’m honestly not afraid of my STBX never changing her mind, because I’m learning I can handle life on life’s terms.

To be fair, even writing all this is a bit ‘manic’, but I will now sit with it for a few minutes and be ok with the stillness, the pain, the sorrow. I can handle it. And I am starting to like who I am because I’m taking the steps I need to take. Thank you for sharing my journey.

DESTRUCTIVE PERSONAL CYCLE:
• Lack of my own self-worth. Due to impossibly high standards I feel like I’m not good enough.
• Dissociation. With underdeveloped ability to deal with my own emotions I repress them and then run from them. I do this by using:
• Grandiose ideas. I set tremendous goals for myself, then charge towards them with crazy intensity. The faster I move the more I distract myself from my pain. So I move fast. I tend to be ‘manic’ and can easily stay up half the night with racing thoughts, writing many pages planning my moves, etc. I live in a fantasy world in which I’m going to become a world champion in my sport. Watching porn. Etc.
• Fear. Because I have learned by experience I can run from my emotions but cannot hide I grow terrified of the inevitable crash. This fear drives me even faster.
• Facing fear. Tired of living in fear I try to ‘face my fears’ but putting myself in scary situations. My therapist told me fear controlled me, not because I run from it, but because I run towards it. Even faster still.
• Depression. Eventually the feelings catch up and I can no longer outrun them. No matter how hard I tried I can’t get away. Not only am I down, I feel hopeless and ready to give up.

DESTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP CYCLE:
• Fear of abandonment. I feel something is terribly wrong with me and I’m unworthy of love. I hope there is someone to prove me wrong and love me anyway.
• Co-dependency. I find a woman with equally low self-worth thinking she’ll validate me, fix the pain in my heart, and won’t ever leave because she needs me as much as I need her.
• High expectations. I have impossible expectations of her as she can’t fill the hole in my heart.
• Rejection/depression/anger. I feel soul crushed that she doesn’t meet those expectations because “if she loved me she would”. I get hurt and angry. I withdraw to protect myself from further rejection and to manipulate her with emotional abuse to give me what I think I need.


Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Thornton
She cried some more and said that...
I Broke her heart and she looks at me differently now. That the love is gone.
She replied that she doesn't trust us anymore.
She told me she didn't trust love anymore



Man this is exactly, and I mean exactly the same words my WW spoke to me the last time we sat and talked.


She's on her roller coaster. Don't go with her. Let her sort through her own stuff. And don't stand around waiting for her to figure it out. Nothing good is going to come from this woman anytime in the near future. Time to start moving forward for real.

Did you see Pig Pen's inspirational speech? It's on YouTube, "Making Pain Your Guru". It just came to mind. Lean into the damn pain.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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Zeus - reading what you posted was like holding up big mirror in front of me.

How did you take that first step? I'm giving it everything I can, honestly.

Really admire you, Zeus. And I'm so happy that you have found peace.

I hope to follow in your footsteps.

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"Nothing good is going to come from this woman anytime in the near future. Time to start moving forward for real."

Change the gender and I can remember having this fundamental realisation in my own situation. When I sat back and looked at where XH was at and what choices he was making, I realised he had nothing good to offer me right now and that wasn't going to change any time soon.

I believe the same in your situation. Actually, if your SO had another hughe coffee shop meltdown and your heart melted and you decided to give things another go, my heart would sink as I would feel you were setting yourselves up for round four..

For the relationship dynamic to be different (either in that R or a new one) we need to change and grow. It is early days, but I do think you are getting on to the right path.

As for Zues, I think he is a good role model and it is inspiring to see someone a couple of years on. So, don't just hope to follow in his footsteps - follow in them!

And just a final word on GAL. Believe it or not, I would see myself more as an introvert than an extrovert. Whilst I enjoy company, it's definitely more of the smaller numbers and relaxed environment variety. Being in company for long periods leaves me tired and overstimulated. So, I didn't go for the Meetups variety. However, I would encourage you to think about some GAL where others are involved.

For me, it is more comfortable when it isn't a pure social environment. For example, my yoga class is friendly and amongst others, but you are focused on doing an activity. Same if you chose to learn Spanish, or play in a sports team, or volunteer in some capacity. Joining a divorce workshop was a really good thing for me as I met others and we did some true sharing, which created a bond. I know Caliguy in MLC forum has found this too...

So, maybe have a think about this avenue too?

smile


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Thornton, you can do this. It's actually surprisingly easy because dealing with feelings turns out to be a heck of a lot easier than running from them. It's almost like a six year old that decides they don't want to clean their room so instead they plan on building a robot that will clean their room for them. Years later they are still struggling with the power relay and then they remember the original purpose of everything was to save work, and it turns out cleaning the room was only an hour job, not a decade job. While likewise running from emotions seemed like a good idea to avoid pain, but after it causes years of devastation you look back and it turns out that just sitting with some uncomfortable feelings now and then isn't nearly as bad as sabataging your whole life.

PROMISE ME you'll watch the movie "Inside Out". It is the kids movie that came out about 2 years ago, so it's animated and all of that. But I'm telling you it is the absolute answer to your question.

Before this movie came out my IC worked with me to understand that all of my feelings were like employees in a company, I was the manager, and we were having a big meeting to talk about what we did next. So Anger was an employee, Fear was an employee, etc. Each had a specific job to do. It wouldn't do any good to shut one employee up and not hear what they had to say, because each had a good point to make. But I couldn't let one of my employees take over the entire meeting and singlehandedly dictate the future of the company. As the manager I couldn't simply defer all authority to them. It was MY job to lead.

For example, Anger would tell me that I had been hurt and ask that I evaluate the situation to find out what had caused me pain, and how I could stop that. Some of it's suggestions might make sense, like setting firmer boundaries around a hostile individual. But then when it would go on to suggest things like revenge and payback, whoaaa!, I'd take the reigns, thank Anger for it's suggestion, and then hear what my other emotions had to say, consider what my beliefs are, and try to act the way I believe a man should act.

I guess the rhythm I got into was spending some time trying to understand how I felt. I even started a habit of voice memoing at different times, stating how I felt, and what I think was making me feel that way. It was tough at first. At first I thought I felt 'nothing'. I was numb, detached. After a while I realized I felt 'bad', but it was very vague. Then I started to understand that I felt 'sad', and the reason I felt sad was that I had thought of a new specific way that our divorce would be a loss for me or my children. Once I recognized the emotion I was feeling and why I was feeling it, I could sit with it for a moment. I could honor that feeling, and hear what it had to say. Then ultimately I'd consider what the right response was to the situation. Most of the time it was just letting it be heard. Sometimes it involved me course correcting.

A great thing happened. Those negative feelings were no longer brewing inside of me. They just came out and floated away. And a new feeling started to grow. The feeling of confidence. I became confident in myself, in my ability to be there for myself, to lead forward in a way that made me proud. Looking back I am extremely proud of how I've navigated the last three years, and the more healthy decisions I make the more confident I become. One situation at a time, one feeling at a time, one response at a time, I have used my beliefs to guide me through and done what each situation demanded of me, and I feel stronger than I have ever felt. And the best part is that not only do the decisions you make in the moment make you feel a little better today because you know you handled it like a champion, as time passes those choices reshape your reality. My relationship with my kids is so strong and deep and rewarding. My inner peace when I'm just sitting with myself in the car. I built an emotional home for myself one brick at a time and not only was it satisfying to take control of my emotional life with each brick, but now I have a nice place to live.

Cliff notes- understand your feelings, honor them, then choose the best response based on being the man you want to be, what you want to see when you look back two years from now. Trust me on this. And please see "Inside Out" and let me know what you think.

Hang in T.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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