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WshIKnw Offline OP
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I also want to make sure we're clear that I wasn't saying it's bad that women are in the workforce. I was speaking about one big disadvantage of it, that it causes the sexes to intermingle too​ much, which is dangerous for marriage, especially when you consider how long each day people are at work, often longer than they​ are around their own spouses on the weekdays. Women being in the workforce is good because women should have just as many opportunities as men, but it made infidelity more commonplace, I think. It made it harder to keep marriages going.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Originally Posted By: SAL27
Quote:
My wife has acted like I'm the one that cheated and left her for the other person. She's treating me like I'm the bad guy.


This seems like a common theme for them to do so don't beat yourself up about it. I'm also at fault for my EW's A. Don't believe it though cause nothing you did throughout the M makes you deserve such treatment. IMO they blame us so they don't have to carry the guilt anymore.


Not always guilt. In some cases, they justify the A b/c of their unmet needs.

To be clear, NO I don't agree with affairs.

But while all affairs are wrong, they are NOT all alike.


And similarly, the chances of reconciling after one, or rebuilding a better marriage that is far less likely to result in an affair, varies wildly.

In Wsh's situation, he admitted that his wife told him she wanted/needed more social interaction, which he was not comfortable with or did not want to do or found difficult.

And she wanted him to develop other interests outside of his gaming, presumably something she was interested in or that involved others, or that included something physical, all of which Wsh did not do. (But wishes he had, which I know is hard).

Wsh's wife also told him she did not feel comfortable with his porn use (I'm not harping on the porn, Wsh, just another reason for her feeling unfulfilled )

and how his remarks and his lower libido, made her feel less desirable.

These ^^ are some of the hallmarks of affairs women have. While men who cheat MAY not attach much emotion to it, most women who cheat, do.

So it's not really guilt that annoys them, it's the rationalizations and anger and resentment that has built up over time, about their unmet needs.

Those justifications usually happen Before the A.

Wsh has said if he had known she would leave him for not changing any of these things, then he would have done some or more of what she wanted....But imo, most women don't throw out the term "divorce" until their love tanks are empty. (Sometimes I think we ought to leave while we still love the man, in case the guy does change. But it's not very common in my experience).

Please Check out Sandi's WHOLE thread on why (some) women want to have affairs. How lonely she felt at the time, and how unattractive her h had become, to her. Not to justify things but to help you understand it more.

Sandi talks about firm boundaries with wayward wives, IF/WHEN the ww is interested in reconciling, but don't just read that part. I have noticed some men read only that part and it fuels their righteous indignation but it comes off as punitive and gets them nowhere fast. Their anger fuels the W's desire to leave and confirms her negative images of her h.....so, please Read about the mindset that led to her choice in the first place...

It often involves losing respect for their h's, or unaddressed pain from arguments or remarks made, (a lot of women are uncomfortable expressing anger)

and that leads to fewer loving feelings, & makes them more vulnerable, etc.

One other comment...

imo, the BEST NEWS you can glean from this ordeal, or learn in counseling,

is that you were NOT a perfect h. That you do have flaws of some significance.

Because if you were the best man you are capable of being, and have nothing to improve upon, and your w still cheats,

then you are powerless to affect this.


Who wants to be powerless? That is why we hammer the "focus on you" theme so much.

The spouse having the affair is not here trying to save the m.

So our Arguing with them or trying to fix them or blame them, does the person here, no good. And it deflects from our own personal work.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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WshIKnw Offline OP
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I have spent plenty of time blaming myself, 25. I've admitted my faults from day one, and have admitted them several times to my wife. In fact just this morning, I sent her a very long message about how I would jump in a second to redo 2016, if I were miraculously given the chance. It was basically a lot of all the things I did wrong or things that I didn't do enough.

I also want to add that my wife has never had any issue expressing anger. She has a temper. And after bomb drop, I saw levels of anger that dwarfed all previous anger I had seen from her.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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It was basically a list of all the things I did wrong or things that I didn't do enough.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Quote:
But, anyway, she always wanted to be able to have guy friends, and I always complained about it and warned her how feelings could go beyond friendship. For a few years in the middle, she seemed to agree with me. She said when she told guy friends that she wasn't interested in being more than friends, they would leave her alone, indicating that my fears were justified. And so she didn't try to have guy friends pretty much ever, until she got to this new job, where she had to work with this guy


What was her definition of "guy friends"? Was she saying she wanted male friendships that were exclusive, private, with single and/or married?

FWIW, I share pretty much your viewpoint on married women forming friendships with men that restrict the spouses. Even in couples friendships, the man and women from opposite marriages should not carry on a private friendship without their spouses included. The same genders from the couples friendship would be fine doing things without their perspective spouses, but neither would it be considered private or secretive.

There is a difference, IMHO, in having business luncheons/meetings, and having co-workers with which you show a professional friendliness at the workplace............but the problem comes when the man & woman start pairing off and forming a private "friendship". (And this is true for married men making exclusive friendships with women). I know the arguments about how it makes no difference if someone decides to have an affair. I agree it won't necessarily band any affairs from taking place, but why set yourself up to have one? I suggest that most M people don't suddenly wake up one morning and decide to go out and have an affair......and proceed to shop for the nearest partner. People form acquaintances, attractions, friendships, etc. Then it develops into something more.

When some people have emotional needs that have been unmet in their MR, that can place them at risk for an affair...... if things don't change for the better. Would it have prevented your W from having an A if you had went out with her more? IDK how she acts around other men. But you accompanying her in social outings, would not have hurt, and perhaps would have met a need she obviously had expressed to you. That's not to say you are responsible for her affair, if she had one.

There are some people who just crave flirtatious attention.........they will push the boundaries. But that opens the door for more discussion than I have time to get into at the moment. Long story short........we have to affair proof our M as best we can. There is a reason for boundaries.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Women being in the workforce made infidelity more commonplace, I think. It made it harder to keep marriages going.

I know that I dont want to be in a relationship where i fear that my partner is going to cheat on me just because the opportunity presents itself.

To me, it looks like you are trying to find the logic and reason into why your W made these decisions. Trying to find the thing to blame so you can fix that.

In my opinion, those details dont matter. What matters is you. So what of those things that you were trying to do or considering have you actually done now?

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Good grief the backtracking.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Hey 25,

Great post and I do agree with much of what you are saying. Sure, there are many unmet needs in a lot of M's, but I think what I was trying to tell Wsh is that he is not all to blame.

Sure there are things he could have done to fulfill his W's needs, but nothing he done/did deserved to be cheated on. It was a conscience decision his W made so for her to place the blame on him is hurtful and irresponsible.

To betray a spouse by having an A is the most selfish and inconsiderate act someone can do to the person they chose to love. It is all about them at that point. The resentment they have towards their spouse is still no reason to cheat. They should leave before taking such actions.

I know you are just trying to shed some light on why an A can occur and not actually condoning a spouse having one. I will also read Sandi's post in regards to the mindset of a woman and what brought her to the decision of having an A.

With that being said I still will not allow my W to tell me her A is all my fault. Period. It is her fault and I don't think Wsh should believe it is all his fault as well. They can say what they want to justify their actions, but at the end of the day...no one can make you do anything.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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Unless the affair is a revenge one, then it isn't done out of anger. It's done because they don't give a shite anymore.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: SAL27
Hey 25,

Great post and I do agree with much of what you are saying. Sure, there are many unmet needs in a lot of M's, but I think what I was trying to tell Wsh is that he is not all to blame.

Sure there are things he could have done to fulfill his W's needs, but nothing he done/did deserved to be cheated on. It was a conscience decision his W made so for her to place the blame on him is hurtful and irresponsible.
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I did say, in bold print - that Affairs are always wrong, but they are not all alike.

In Wsh's case, while he says he has owned his issues, when he posts here, it ends up more about her bad choices, which none of us can fix or address. She is not here trying to save the m.

I'm trying to shed light on how pointless it is to keep saying that his wife was wrong. No one is arguing that she was right. Explaining how she might have seen her m and made her choices is not making her right and him wrong.

My other point is that it's empowering for us to have things in US to work on, it's not a criticism, it's an observation...which was a painful insight for me to come to.


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To betray a spouse by having an A is the most selfish and inconsiderate act someone can do to the person they chose to love. It is all about them at that point. The resentment they have towards their spouse is still no reason to cheat. They should leave before taking such actions.

Okayyyy

Who is in favor of an affair? How does this^^^ help?

How does this^^ help an LBSer to become who we say we wants to become?




I know you are just trying to shed some light on why an A can occur and not actually condoning a spouse having one.


I'm glad you get this..


I will also read Sandi's post in regards to the mindset of a woman and what brought her to the decision of having an A.


I can't do justice to Sandi's insights or wisdom. She's here posting anyway.


With that being said I still will not allow my W to tell me her A is all my fault. Period.


You can certainly refuse to believe her, but you have no control over her beliefs or actions.

I was here...as an LBSer. For a long time...

When I challenged my h's choices, which I still think were selfish, I got nowhere.

I hope someone can benefit from what I learned b/c there was a whole lot of well reasoned and well articulated arguments I used, to no avail. And we had children to consider too...

The fundamental premise of DBing is to do what works and to work on us.

without taking these^^ fundamentals in, (for real) we will fail at DBing.



It is her fault and I don't think Wsh should believe it is all his fault as well.


Okayyy

who said it was "all his fault"? I was careful with my word choice.
Gosh, I hate to beat a dead horse, but

My point was that by focussing on the affair and blaming her, WSH gives up all his power and doesn't grow. Hence the comment that by finding flaws in ourselves, we are empowered.

I really believe If a MC told me - or if I believed - that I had been a flawless perfect wife, that nothing I had down was wrong or in error, I would have felt temporarily vindicated.
grin

And THEN, I'd have been hit with despair b/c I would know that nothing I could ever do in any marriage would give me peace, or security. I'd be powerless, always a victim.
cry
.
.



They can say what they want to justify their actions, but at the end of the day...no one can make you do anything.


Correct!

So it is up to the LBser to do what the LBSer can to become who they want to become. It is not up to the WAS to "make us" feel or do something.

My goal for someone here (once they are out of shock), is almost always to redirect the LBSer to their own path, which is all they control.

I do this for a reason.

we all have to Do what we need to do to change

for ourselves
...and paradoxically, to increase the recon chances.

This is a site for people who want to save their m's--- and the WAS is not here. .


Look, I spent more than my first year here, blaming and fuming at my h. I was furious and deeply hurt, and spent SO MUCH TIME asking WHY??? There was no OP that I knew of- though you could argue that Alaska was his mistress. To this day I think h was "Wrong" to leave me and our daughters, to pursue a place/job/singledom or whatever. I had to accept things I did not understand, let alone agree with.

it's a year I'll never get back. I gave that year up to my anger and victimhood. I did that.

Some of us decide that we don't want to reconcile, or that we can't, or that it's not going to happen anyhow, and so we want to just survive this and then to move on and maybe even flourish.

After giving this^^ years of thought,

I strongly believe it's Not helpful to the LBSer to worry about the WAS much. I think those who flourish most after this, are those who stay on their paths, without focusing on blaming their spouses OR Themselves, in total.

We have to keep redirecting ourselves away from the negatives of someone who isn't ever here...and onto our own paths. "From this day forward"...not saying we should ignore the past b/c how else will we learn what to do with ourselves AND to pick up on cues from our spouses we may have mishandled or not noticed...

When people are reeling, it may be too early to hear this.

But to repeat for emphasis, Affairs are wrong. But not all affairs are alike.

No one thinks they are fine.


And FTR - No, I did not cheat. So I'm not coming from a place of personal bias.


*But I've noticed a theme here. When people want to change to save their m's b/c they realize they've missed the mark in some important ways...and they begin a brave look within, they begin to dig deep and to really grow...(b/c pain can be the touchstone for growth)

but then BAM! The LBSer finds out about OPs.

Suddenly their own work comes to a halt!
Suddenly, the entirety of their marital problems are ALL due to the horrible selfish completely inexplicable affair....and that's just not productive. And it's rarely accurate.

I think it's counter productive. It think we can get stuck there. I think that is dangerous to our growth and to our marriages and yes, to our happiness and our children's.

Counter productive b/c when we direct our anger (however justified!) at the WAS

they flee faster, not riddled with guilt - but resentful. Sometimes they don't think they'd have had the affair in the first place, if it were not for their flawed spouse.

It's important to understand their perspective without assuming we are being blamed.

Some of this^^^ is just about empathy. While the LBSers say the cheating spouse or WAS totally lack empathy, isn't that exactly what we are showing by rote condemnation and treating all affairs and WAS's exactly alike?

The WAS says they would not have left or cheated if their LBSer had not been wrong

and the LSBer says the WAS is wrong for cheating, no matter what the LBSer did.

Isn't a part of this^^ just plain old scorekeeping - by both?

Life is short. Let's try not to get stuck.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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