I bet I have a story that this site has never heard before.
Last night I had a good opportunity where the kids were in bed early. I decided it was time to let her know that I know about her online affair. She denied it at first but when I pressed her a bit she admitted that it had been going on all year. Then she tried to dodge responsibility for it but I pointed out that it was an affair and that it was wrong. I pointed out that no matter what I did, it could never justify it. I made it clear that I will not live this way and that if she wanted to leave me then she was free to go. She then accepted responsibility and agreed that it was wrong. She said that if it was ok, she wanted to finish the final picture that she was working on of him because she had a lot of hours in and when finished it was going to be a good promotion for her art because it was linked to a movie and going to be on the movie site. She said if she could finish that then she would stop all contact and stop making art for him. I agreed to this.
Then she said to me, "now that this is in the open do you have anything to tell me?" I said that I did not and that I was faithful for this whole year and all the time. she said, "you don't have anything to tell me about what's been going on?" I asked for her to just come out with it. I did not know what has been going on. After quite a bit of coaxing, she said that people had been communicating with daily her via her twitter feed and that they knew everything that she was doing. She said that she thought I was behind it. She said that she thought it was like a Truman show situation where someone was watching her, perhaps for entertainment. I was caught totally off guard but I managed to keep my composure. I assured her that not only was I not behind this but that she knew from our 19 years together that I do not like reality shows and that I would never participate in one. after some more reassurance, she said that she believed me. I validated all her concerns and asked her to show me some examples of the picture communication. she showed me one picture that was a bit specific to her situation but could easily be a coincidence. I asked to see more but she said she did not save any more pictures. she told me about how she would be doing things in the house and then art of the same things would appear in the twitter feed. she said that she had also heard voices once telling her to go to bed when she was up late painting but that no one was there. She said that once the twitter feed was trying to compel her to paint a witch doctor and when she painted something else she thought that someone might be using laughing gas on her and that she had to resist very hard in order not to paint the witch doctor painting. she wanted me to check the space beside our house for signs of tampering. She also said that once S4's blocks had been arranged to spell her artist name. I validated her some more and then asked her to show me in the future when these things happen. However, after some more talking where she said she suspected maybe the CIA was behind it, she agreed that the best move was not to participate. we ended up talking about this for over an hour. She agreed to take a break from twitter for a while. we talked some more about our past and had a good rest of the night. she came to bed with me for the first time in two months. she rubbed on me and we ended up spooning and falling asleep. Then when I got to work this morning she called me and we talked about pleasant things. she never calls me at work unless she needs something.
WTF! She was not kidding me. she has always been very poor at lying. her commitment to this was total. if she was lying then it was a masterpiece of lying.
So I am sitting at work now with my mind a bit blown. I have zero expectations but I do feel pretty good this morning. I won't be surprised at all if she falls back into hating me.
How do I proceed from here? was I right to validate her? I'm pretty much planning to go with the flow for now and see what happens next.
Lex, I am very concerned about her. All M advice aside, what you are describing are severe paranoia and delusions. Does she have any history of mental health problems or family history?
It sounds as if she believes her delusions to be real--was there any part of her that had insight into herself and how abnormal these stories sound? Or does she simply accept her "reality?" Do you think she would be open to a psychiatrist evaluation?
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
There is no way that I can suggest any kind of therapist without starting a fight so I will not do that. She does not have any mental illness in her family that I know of. She slept in the bed with me again last night and is loving on me. She has been very positive and said two significant things. She was glad that I finally noticed that she was having an online EA and seems to be serious about stopping all contact with him after she finishes her current picture. She was glad that I believed her about the spying stuff. She was apparently really worried that I would not believe her so she does at least realize that it's a crazy story. she slept through the night the last two nights, she had been staying up a lot.
I have no idea what will happen next. I think I'm going to have to just let things happen for a bit and see where it goes. Putting all my energy into staying cool and accepting. I'm kind of afraid of her getting close to me for a while and then suddenly pulling back again. So I keep reminding myself to have zero expectations.
When you first came onto this board, I drew some strong parallels between your situation and mine, and if memory serves, I pointed out the significance of your wife's delusional affair, and how it indicates possibly poor mental health.
That thread mentions erotomania (there is a Wikipedia page on it), in which a person constructs a whole world of delusions that support his/her erotic obsession. Your wife may be suffering from it or something related to it.
I have been cautioned by others that I may be too quick to diagnose mental disorders in this forum, and I fully accept that admonition. But in this case I strongly advise that you seek professional opinion/help. You don't have to be the one suffering from a mental health problem to see a professional. They will see family, and it should be covered by insurance. I strongly suggest you shop around a bit -- ask people you know for recommendations. Ask your primary care physician. Find a mental health professional who has experience with this type of a problem. Don't just pick a random therapist. My guess is that you will want to see a psychiatrist (an MD, as opposed to counselors, like those w/ MSW, LCSW titles).
Until/unless you obtain professional input, I would just continue to validate and communicate support and warmth.
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
Thanks for the input forgump. I had actually read that thread a few times already. It does seem to have some parallels to my situation. I found out that my insurance will pay for a psychologist. I am going to look for an appropriate one today. It will be for me though. The W will not go.
W initiated R talk with me again last night. She actually took some responsibility for our situation. She has almost never taken responsibility for anything the entire time we have been together so this was huge IMO. She also admitted that she was very sad and she said that it was ok for me to be sad too. This was big as well because she had never liked seeing me display too much emotion and she has always hated seeing any sadness/weakness in me. She seemed drained for the rest of the evening after that so I let her be. Every day is an adventure, I can't wait to see where it takes us next. Hoping for the best.
Lex, glad you're taking steps to get professional help on this. And yes, even if your W is not ready/willing to go, getting their advice is a good first step. Also, don't underestimate the emotional stress on yourself, and your own psychological health. You may not be having delusions, but you could benefit from counseling as well. Lots of provider/fix-it types like you and me have co-dependency issues.
Your W most likely won't seek professional help until/unless she hits rock bottom. It's nearly impossible for that to happen as long as provider/fix-it partners are there to make sure they are clothed, fed, and housed, and help them deal with all their problems. It feels like a catch-22 to me.
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
It's a good thing I had no expectations. The reconciling only lasted a few days. She started posting art for celeb again and when I pointed it out she went into such a rage that she broke a plate and threw a glass at me. Luckily, I moved fast and dodged the glass. She says that she hates me and I took over her body when I got her pregnant. She says that we will never have sex again because it makes her sad. Once she calmed down I told her I accepted everything and we should talk about how we are going to separate. Total silence. I asked her what her plan was to prepare to be independent and she has no plan. Over a year has passed and she did not even have a single thought about how she would accomplish this. She expects me to take care of her until she is ready which she admits could take years.
After that she switched back to being kind again. I asked for nothing but she offered to "pull it way back" emotionally with celeb and sleep in bed with me again as long as I understand that we would not have sex. She still wants to go on a previously planned date with me tomorrow.
Taking it one hour at a time because one day at a time is to much to handle.
So far W is sticking to her promise to stop her online affair. However, she is also sticking to the fact that she wants to divorce "eventually". We are back to being nice to each other but she only wants to be friends. She strongly feels entitled to full support from me however long it takes for her to become financially independent. She feels is so strongly that I can tell that she assumes that it is going to happen. She doesn't even try to hide the fact that it might take years to get set up enough to walk out of our marriage. One other good thing that happened is that W admitted that the last few months were she felt spied on might have been in her head. It seems that once she talked about it out loud it helped her realize that it might not be real.
So, it looks like my challenge now is to figure out how I want to handle this long term "friend" relationship. It's a really tough situation because I want us to both be there for the kids.
What do you think I should be doing at this point? My current plan is to just let things go for a few more months and remain friendly and see if anything new develops. Is this a bad idea? It this a nuclear grade case of cake eating? I know I can do this for a while longer but I don't see myself supporting her for years knowing the whole time that she will walk out at the end. It's all pretty exasperating.
What do you think I should be doing at this point? My current plan is to just let things go for a few more months and remain friendly and see if anything new develops. Is this a bad idea? It this a nuclear grade case of cake eating? I know I can do this for a while longer but I don't see myself supporting her for years knowing the whole time that she will walk out at the end. It's all pretty exasperating.
Have you read DR?
What kinds of 'positive change buttons' can you push?
What are the reasons she's given you for not wanting to be married to you any more?
And, regardless of what reasons she's given, what is your best understanding of why she doesn't want to be married to you any more?
Do you believe that her decision process for leaving is generally a rational decision process?
She is very clear about why she is leaving. She says that she cannot have sex with me anymore because it makes her sad. she says that when I got her pregnant it really tapped into her old hurt and abortions and that I did it on purpose. she says her feelings will never come back and that she is young enough that she doesn't want to live a sexless life. she has a tendency to mis-remember our past as worse than it was but I believe that this is just excuses that she is telling herself to make leaving me easier.
From what I can see on my side, she was having feelings of leaving me 7 months before I got her pregnant because this is when her EA started with the celebrity. I just made it worse when I hurt her but that is not the whole story. she is dreaming of a whole new life where she is an artist and lives a party/artist life with a new man. she wants to prove that she can be completely financially independent as an artist.
I'm not sure how to judge the rationality of her decisions. I wish she would forgive me and we could be together. She hasn't faced the problem of what will happen with the kids so she is pretty irrational in that department.
Can you work w/ her to plan the divorce? Work on the timeline, kids, housing, finances, etc. Going through that process may help her get a clearer view of reality.
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
Can you work w/ her to plan the divorce? Work on the timeline, kids, housing, finances, etc. Going through that process may help her get a clearer view of reality.
I'm planning on having an initial consultation with a divorce lawyer. Not because I want to get divorced but I need to understand how the process works and the best way to handle it. After that I am thinking I will have to demand a decision that involves a specific plan. It's pretty clear at this point that she is willing to leave us in limbo for as long as necessary with no real plan. It's to hard to live this way.
A few good things that have happened. W has kept her promise not to email celeb for 3 weeks so far. W seems a bit to embarrassed to talk much about it but based on some things she has said I think she realizes, at least partially, that no one is spying on her.
Still hanging in there. W had one minor slip but seems to be sticking to her promise not to go beyond penpal friendship with her celeb crush. I have heard very little talk about her being spied on. Life has been surprisingly good this past few months. we are getting along and have had some great times. She has had some new successes with her painting business and this has definitely lightened her mood as well.
She still will not wear our ring or acknowledge that we are married and we still do not have sex. I do not like this situation but I am closer to real acceptance than I have been anytime before now. I'm feeling like there is really nothing I can do at this point but keep waiting and hope that she will want to be married to me again.
Tired but hanging in there. Is there anything helpful that someone in my position can do? Is there any way to encourage this to move forward without pressuring her?
Long time, bro! Sorry to hear about the non progress. How are you doing? Maybe move over to MLC. I have gotten good advice over there if you want advice on the long term live in situation. You say you still want to save your m. Good for you. Advice on how to help your w wake up without pressuring her? I don't think that's possible. Remember, you can only control you. What do you want for you? Give her time and space if you are willing, but know this may take years with no guarantee of a turnaround. Again, what do you want that is in your control? Self improvement? GAL?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I'm doing great with GAL. I pretty much already take care of all my own needs so if W left I would just have to hire a nanny for my youngest. Not much else would change.
I work out judo with my son 2 times a week and we are going to another tournament soon. I also added weightlifting 2 times a week back in November and my strength has improved. I got a big raise at work and I drive for Uber occasionally. My life is what I want it to be, with or without W in it.
Life has been surprisingly good this past few months. we are getting along and have had some great times. She has had some new successes with her painting business and this has definitely lightened her mood as well.
That actually sounds like outstanding progress! People expect recon to happen like a bolt of lightening but it rarely does. It's usually a slow, gradual process. That's why DB'ing talks about looking for baby steps instead of big moves.
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I'm feeling like there is really nothing I can do at this point but keep waiting and hope that she will want to be married to me again.
DB'ing emphasizes getting out, GAL'ing, improving yourself, being the best you that you can be. Work out, try a new hairstyle, start wearing cologne if you don't, buy some new clothes. Don't sit around and wait, get out there and be amazing! Be someone your W can't help but be attracted to.
Quote:
Is there any way to encourage this to move forward without pressuring her?
Reading your above comments it sounds to me like it IS moving forward. Probably not as fast as you want it to, but you're on her timeline, not yours.
"Reading your above comments it sounds to me like it IS moving forward. Probably not as fast as you want it to, but you're on her timeline, not yours."
Man AnotherStander you rock! You almost always sum the situation up and several of these stories I recognize myself in. But it is always easier to recognize and point these things out when you aren't emotionally involved. I know these things are true (and clearly all of these hundreds of posts seem to fit a similar pattern) but then actually doing it.
Lex23: if you mean this "My life is what I want it to be, with or without W in it." I think you are doing amazing and will be fine.
No R talk of any kind. W said she had a dream of us getting married and there was a dragonfly which was somehow important. I looked up the symbology of the dragon fly and the primary meaning is self knowledge, power and flexibility. I pointed that out to W and she got kinda squirrely on me and so I let it drop.
We had a good month. spent almost all our time together. Four nights ago W put our engagement ring on but not our wedding ring. there was no talk about this. so weird, makes me wonder if she sees us as engaged now LOL!
S11 and I went to a judo tournament and S won one of his matches. I lost my matches but we left feeling great about it.
we are planning a vacation at the end of September and W speaks of future things as much as 2 years out. she has not spoken of leaving this month.
I feel pretty good when I am keeping busy and I have been pretty busy. I feel sad sometimes when I have some quiet time but I let it come and it usually passes after a while.
W remains mysterious and distant in the bedroom. I am sometimes tempted to R talk but I do not actually start one.
Great update. Be patient. What do you mean by mysterious in the bedroom?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Great update. Be patient. What do you mean by mysterious in the bedroom?
sometimes I can put my arm around her but usually we just go to bed without touching. Not much sign that anything is happening. If I try to kiss her she turns away.
It has been a while. I thought that I would stop by and update. I have encouraging developments to report. I can say that the advice on this forum is true. My wife didn't turn the corner until I truly detached myself and stopped caring about the outcome. Once I did detach it was almost like she detected it with a sixth sense. It is starting to look like W really did turn a corner in herself back in July. She has slowly and consistently been moving closer to me. She went to California in September to visit her sister and when she returned she made a more obvious move closer back to me. We started making love again and she would occasionally bring up things that indicated that she was being introspective. She also started to bring up topics that would come close to her admitting that she might have made some wrong choices over the last few years. She admitted to me that her crush on Celebrity was a mistake and that they are just friends. She is showing me gratitude for things that I do and she is showing thankfulness for her life in general. She has also, mostly, resumed her share of household duties. These things came back very gradually and sometimes it seemed like nothing was happening until about a month ago when I looked at things and realized all at once that things had changed.
For my part, I am very proud of my discipline over the last six months. I have slipped up only a few times. I train judo 2 times a week and lift weights 2 times a week. I have added several pounds of muscle and kept my weight right. I have been very positive with my family and my life outlook. When I have negative feelings I let them come and go without reacting to them. I have not initiated relationship talks in any form, either covert or overt.
A few issues that I bring to the forum for your wise advice:
-I never did put my wedding ring back on and neither did she. She has been wearing a different ring on that finger though. I really did stop caring about rings along the way and currently I feel like she should ask me to wear them again. Is this foolish of me? Or is it a good idea? Sometimes I feel like it would be good for her to show me she was ready. Other times I feel like she is waiting for me to be "manly" and ask her to wear them again. I'm not sure which is true.
-Is it healthy to go long term without talking about our R and what had happened? She is in no hurry to have a conversation. She might even prefer to bury things so she does not have to account. I realize that I don't care if she accounts at this point. Is that unwise of me?
-Wife has confirmed that she is only friends with Celeb now. She only emails him about twice a month now and it is 90% business about art that she is making for him and 10% friendly chat. I have been feeling like this is ok because she is getting a business benefit from her relationship with him. It seems excessive to force her to give that up. Is that foolish of me? I see many people here say the spouse must stop all contact. I do not feel threatened by this level of communication but I want to be sure that I am not fooling myself.
Thank you all for your help. I wish everyone here the best. The advice I received here really did help me get this far and is also instructing me in how to keep improving myself going forward.
-Wife has confirmed that she is only friends with Celeb now. She only emails him about twice a month now and it is 90% business about art that she is making for him and 10% friendly chat. I have been feeling like this is ok because she is getting a business benefit from her relationship with him. It seems excessive to force her to give that up. Is that foolish of me? I see many people here say the spouse must stop all contact. I do not feel threatened by this level of communication but I want to be sure that I am not fooling myself.
Lex23,
I don't know anything about reconciliation, but the friend/business relationship with the celeb seems a bit much. It feels like she's hedging her bets.
I don't know anything about reconciliation, but the friend/business relationship with the celeb seems a bit much. It feels like she's hedging her bets.
I wonder exactly this. It seems like trying to keep a foot in the door.
Here are some facts that I know about the situation though: -he does not want a relationship with her. He does not even really want friendship. He wants free promotional art for his facebook page. -they are both benefiting professionally from this. -she has kept emails professional for almost 5 months now. zero romance content. -even if she is still fantasizing about him I cannot control this and would not even be foolish enough to try at this point. That is in her and not my responsibility.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I'm a bit jaded. My XW always seemed to have reasonable explanations for the intensity of her "friendship" with the OM.
You know how you always hear the metaphor of the frog that calmly floats in the warm water until the water begins boiling and the frog dies because it never noticed the rising temperature? I was the frog. I kept accepting the little things as being okay until they weren't, and then it was too late.
Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I'm a bit jaded. My XW always seemed to have reasonable explanations for the intensity of her "friendship" with the OM.
You know how you always hear the metaphor of the frog that calmly floats in the warm water until the water begins boiling and the frog dies because it never noticed the rising temperature? I was the frog. I kept accepting the little things as being okay until they weren't, and then it was too late.
That is what I am looking for in myself.
she is not escalating though. She will write about a paragraph and he will answer with a sentence or two, sometimes not answering at all. This happens approximately every 2 weeks. It's fairly minimal. I don't see how anything inappropriate can happen at this level. If this was their communication pattern before our troubles then I would never have had any problem with it.
He wants nothing to do with her, however, she is holding onto some sort of fantasy with him. You can say it is no harm, but that might inhibit her to not get back in the M mentally and emotionally and make the changes necessary to have a long fulfilling M.
You want her to be all-in emotionally with you, right?
Just something to think about.
And how much money is the exposure on his facebook page really making her? Enough to keep her having a string attached to her fantasy?
He wants nothing to do with her, however, she is holding onto some sort of fantasy with him. You can say it is no harm, but that might inhibit her to not get back in the M mentally and emotionally and make the changes necessary to have a long fulfilling M.
You want her to be all-in emotionally with you, right?
Just something to think about.
And how much money is the exposure on his facebook page really making her? Enough to keep her having a string attached to her fantasy?
I agree. As long as maintains some contact it stays in her head and creates a barrier between her and you. My W had an infatuation with OM, which wasn't returned because he had a GF. She would try to create opportunities to see him regardless. After carrying on like that for awhile, I realized her pursuit of him remained a barrier to our reconciliation. She tried to arrange her job to see him more, which became a big fight between us. I also declared that he's not invited to our house for an social events we host even though he is in our social circle.
I think it is better to stop all the communications.
