Abuse Resource 2 (Vanilla and Zelda)

[Woke_Up]

Some great stuff in there. I'll have to research the various links. Thanks, V.

Hmm, Vanilla & Zelda - probably a coincidence, but 2 names I know from my Usenet days

[Vanilla]

Woke up coincidence I think.

V

[Vanilla]

High Conflict Divorce

Only about 2% of divorces end up in trial before a judge. These thoughts are about my own high conflict divorce and the strategies I have used.

What worked, what didn't and the process.

Firstly: V is in the UK.

Secondly: there are no children involved so no custody etc.

Finally: V has been abused and not all high conflict D involves either an abuser or a disordered individual

--------------------------------------

High conflict involves disagreement, and some disagreement is valid in D as each has their own view. A thick skin is needed as feelings can run high. My intention is to be factual and 'reporter' like when filing in paperwork.

Divorce falls into portions

1. The Divorce itself, as in we are no longer M
2. The Final Financial settlement (can be optional)
3. It includes custody arrangements for children and in some cases D isn't granted unless some provisional arrangements are made including temporary fin support

Step 1 involves a judge agreeing that a marriage is over. This can be easy and need not involve mud slinging and vitriol. Usually including the minimum to show that the M is over.

In the UK there are various grounds for D (and ceasing a civil partnership) and these can include adultery and naming the adulterous partner. Doing so often increases costs so in most cases the minimum needed to show the M is over is needed. I took the stance that there was no requirement to be vicious as clearly the Giggalo had left the Marital Home. This of course may be different if there are children involved or abuse. In the US some States still have fault so the grounds can be important.

So how did this portion of The D become high conflict? Well first of all the Giggalo disappeared and refused to give his address, he refused to acknowledge service. At all, under no circumstances.

In the UK the length of the M for fins is largely dependent on the time the couple have cohabited plus the length of the M. In our case this was from April 2011 to October 2013 (for cohabiting) and from Octover 2013 to 26 June 2014 when I left to live in my holiday flat. The Giggalo disputes those dates and claims the end of the M was much later either when he left the FHM on 2 May 2015 or the final date of D 26 May 2016. This is important as the courts have determined that a short M is less than 5 years. And of course 30 April 2011 to 26 May 2016 exceeds 5 years. So how long was this M? The judges decide.

The length has a significant effect on fin settlement so the Giggalo played duck and dive to make the M appear longer than 5 years. Round 1 to the Giggalo.

So what can you do if no service is acknowledged? The first step is a process server, in my case the address given by the Giggalo was his sisters. So the process server turned up, he no longer lived there.

So I obtained a different address (more later) on a rented house. Another fee to a process server, he was no longer there either.

He had gone to Italy to live with the BIT (formerly called RIT), Bratislava Italian Tramp. I did not have the address. Without service I could no longer proceed to D. I therefore recorded posted his paperwork to several addresses, scatter gun approach, plus had an L email. Service achieved. Deemed service can be applied for and confirmed by the court.

In the meanwhile the Court administration in the UK had rationalised and my paperwork went from a local court to a centre based around where the Giggalo said he lived to a centre where the i live because he is abroad. The system has been widely condemned as inefficient and ineffective. It's a shambles in my view. As the administration centres have poor administration, lost paperwork and no courts in them for hearings. It means cross filings aren't tied up and in my experience orders issued on time or at all. A shambles.

My paperwork got lost, twice. I complained formally but didn't get anywhere, my requests for investigation were dismissed and minimised. Those complaints are on record though.

The judge is likely to take this into consideration when determining if this M is short, ie that the court system itself was a source of delay.

So in this first stage there was high conflict, manipulation, disappearance, and refusing to acknowledge service. All of this is designed to increase the length of the M so the Giggalo can have a larger slice of assets. All the while living with BIT in Italy. Untraceable.

I attempted to do the first part of D on my own to cut cost. I think it likely this wasn't too risky in my case. I always prepare the paperwork, no matter how hard this might be or triggering. I also prepare the court packs.

I was aware that what I might write can be triggering in a high conflict D. Although some times that is necessary to get the point across. It also triggered me as the filer.

Disputing that an M is over is unlikely to succeed as clearly the very existance of filing is evidence of M breakdown. The grounds for filing can be vital though in some instances. It is possible to accept the D whilst not accepting the grounds on which the D is filed. For instance if a D is filed on the grounds of adultery and the Respondent has not been adulterous, then it is possible to accept the D but dispute the grounds. The D is filed therefore and can be completed. In those circumstances the D could be defended leading to increased costs. Adultery is hard to prove without the other party admitting it. The Giggalo tried to say that V was living a single life with all that this infers. Clever wording, although it makes little difference where fault is not an issue.

-----------------------------------

So do you need an L for this stage?

You may need L advice, and almost certainly in high conflict D you will want a sage eye looking over any paperwork.

No one knows your M more than you, and I believe you can't abdicate this to an L. Draft the D forms and as an L to review will cut cost. This means learning what is needed in your jurisdiction.

------------------------------------

Is who files first important?

Well yes it can be in my view. In my case vital. If I had left this to the Giggalo then the M might have been very long and the settlement he is after much bigger. This is a very obvious case where filing first makes sense.

It can also be important in high conflict D, as the one who files first often speaks first in court and is known as the Applicant. The other is called the Respondent. It can give evidence an advantage to be the applicant.

In this phase of the D, V was the Applicant.

In Custody cases and fault positions, I understand this may also give an advantage.

When discussing abuse and other aspects involving custody, judges can take the position that by not filing for D when the abuse starts, then an admission of tolerance is admitted so the abuse can't be that bad or the target would have left and filed.

So early filing and filing when examining abuse can make a big difference. I think this can be especially important for fathers or mothers who have left the FHM and whose children are with a wayward or abusive or high conflict spouse.

So not filing first can in some circumstances back foot the Respondent as in my own case.

My D was confirmed on 28 May 2016, almost one year and one month after the Giggalo left the FHM and I moved back in to live.

The good news is that D is given in two phases in the UK, a nisi which is 6 weeks prior to the absolute. In my case nisi was mid April 2016 (just under 5 years, phew!) and absolute was six weeks later.

Absolute is on application, and it can be left years between nisi and absolute. However if application for absolute is made immediately then it's only 6 weeks minimum, I understand if the gap goes beyond 2 years then judges can set aside the nisi D and a redo is required. But it does give 2 years breathing space. Many M repair in this breathing space approximately 15%.

The UK stats are that 20% of those who D remarry, truly they bust their D. Which is the whole purpose of understanding the process. To remove the conflict and keep things calm is in the interests of reconciliation and piecing. I believe that understanding the process means it is less likely to be taken frivolously or used as a casual threat.

So how does this fit with trying to bust a divorce? Some abusive M can't and shouldn't be saved, like my own. Seeking a D can bring relief and respite. Also some of the processes involved such as mediation have been known to lance a wound and lead to a healthy reconciliation.

Some couples also use legal separation as a mechanism instead of divorce, which stabilises and often causes a rethink. I haven't used separation and can't discuss the pros and cons as this wasn't appropriate and the mechanism isn't known to me. I am not an L and this is just V and her views.

This is an open thread so discussion is invited in this. If these posts are inappropriate or unwelcome let me know.
My intention is to document my own high conflict D and observe. Please contribute if you can.

V

[Vanilla]

So a decision made by a judge which prevented a D, is upheld in the Court of Appeal.

In the UK, it is a fault system for D. There are several grounds, adultery, 2 years by mutual consent, 5 years unilateral and unreasonable behaviour.

A WW filed for D on the grounds of her H unreasonable behaviour. He objected (contested) and the judge said that WW hadn't proved that H was unreasonable. WW appealed, she wanted D. Her appeal was turned down, the appeal court said the original judge had made a valid judgement.

Just being miserable and day to day miserable was expected in a long M. The WW is 66 and the H is 78.

Not sure how this decision benefits anyone. Your spouse had better be really truly unreasonable not just every day. This may lead to no fault D in the UK. That is divorce on demand.

I suspect the H just didn't want to split his worldly wealth with his WW for 5 years. Make her wait! He said he had forgiven her the PA and they had several years left as H and W.

Only in England......

V

[Dawgs]

Adverse Childhood Experiences and abuses make us more apt to push people away or ourselves , which perpetrates aloneness

Thanks for posting all of this. I singled this out because of my ex's abusive past. If you've read any of my stuff then you are aware of my ex's horrific childhood. Well, horrific doesn't even begin to touch the tip of the iceberg in her case. I won't go into any more detail than what I've already done as this is a public forum, but this is a topic that I've learned a lot about through many venues and just plain seeing what it did to her and how it shapes her life now.

In my ex's case, your statement can be seen in the fact that she runs at the smallest thing - she had said in MC several times that she was famous for leaving relationships. At the same time, she is drawn/pushed to be with those who in some form are like the abusers of her past...that is something I don't fully get and maybe you can shed some light on it.

I'm not looking for understanding in hopes of getting her back - our relationship is done and buried. I just want to understand better. And, as you are aware, I have a little girl who is at the age of when my ex's abuse was in full-swing. I'm worried, quite honestly. I'm worried because I see shades of the ex's mom in the ex, and that isn't a good thing at all. I have expressed all of this to my lawyer and have detailed records to include her suicidal texts, but as my lawyer said, there really isn't anything I can do until she does something or puts them in a negative situation...and by then, its too late.

Sure, I could have won full custody, but the cost (not monetarily) would have been too high. That option will always be there if I need to exercise it.

What are some of the signs I should be looking for in my children?

[Vanilla]

Your question deserves a considered reply. I am marinading and will reply as I have some great materials that I have kept.

V

[Vanilla]

Sorry for all the posts, it's been a rough day.

Bombarded with s**tty
Emails from W today but deleted them.
Her latest thing was a huge diatribe on FB condemning me where I couldn't even defend myself as I don't use it.
Also, my sister managed to grab one of her pictures she put on Instagram of her and OM before it was taken down 10 mins later. Very chummy, cheek to cheek,looking very much in love.
They're just friends tho....obvs..LMFAO

I'm so glad I wasn't baited by her bs this morning. I'm taking the high road and hopefully the worst of it is over, for now.

Wow, WTF happened to my sweet wife??

From Jan 2 2017 post

V thinks this is level 6 abuse

V

[Vanilla]

Vs response to Morbo post:

Her nastiness WILL NOT pass. If this is systemic it will increase. And possibly add more sinister anti social elements as if there aren't enough already.

A WW is different from a disordered one. Wayward is as wayward does and largely it's behaviourally driven. Awful selfish behaviour full of entitlement. This raging and abuse is very different indeed it stems from personality issues not behavioural ones. Personality issues are systemic and show a cancerous soul. There is no chance of a wake up call. These waywards like doing what they are doing, they enjoy humiliating and demeaning, their lies have a purpose to control and destroy. Destroy, reputation, spirit, resources and wellbeing -because it gives them control.

It is a step beyond wayward.

You may want to read Schermann posts.

One in twenty of the sitches (possibly more as the board may attract a higher than average selection of these) are personality issues. I think yours is one of those. These sitches DO NOT turn round. These waywards take years of therapy to develop into half decent partners. If ever.m

It is dangerous and damaging for you and your girls to be involved in this crazy loco.

Five months without ML? Long enough to determine some sexual diseases but not others. Especially Syphilis and Clamidya. Both of which will do you great damage and can be present for years as dormant. Go get tested is my thinking. The former damages the brain especially the frontal lobe and the later your capacity for sperm production if you ever want a second family. The actual process of testing should be confidential and having the tests will be very sobering.

Those of us who have been through this type of abuse can be spellbreakers, we recognise the signs as we have lived them too.

There is such a thing as bonding with an abuser. It involves the sweet cycle. Being nice, loving then abusing. Each sweet cycle gets sweeter and sourer as the abuser tests your tolerance for abuse. Because there is both sweet and sour then there is cognitive dissonance. CD means trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, how can there be sweet and sour together? Is it that this is your fault? If you had done X or y instead of z would it be different?

Once you know it's a pattern of control then you will never unknow. There is no going back to delusion and being spellbound.

This stuff usually ends in a grande finale event of nastiness, an attempt to resume control by the abuser. You can find yourself accused of unspeakable things. For this you will have to be ready with a full history of abuse, without gaps. To show a pattern. Not just patches here and there. Recent stuff.

Keep a diary, recent files emails. Even if recording is not accepted by the court still do it as the police will often arrest at random. You are the sane one here, stay that way. KEEP SAFE AND KEEP YOUR TWO BEAUTIFUL D SAFE.

On the first abuse thread the lovely Sotto put a reading list, I would add that you can Google High Conflict Institute for tactics like medium chill and BIFF responses. Also consider asking any L you take on about his or her experience in high conflict divorce. Divorcing a high conflict spouse needs very specialist skills.

And cards chest close.

I recently qualified as a Freedom abuse counsellor and although I specialise in women being abused then I have now worked with a couple of L that are great at high conflict D management. This type of D is not easy to resolve for an L and it's much harder if the behaviour of the target (not victim) is working against you or they are not spellbroken.

Abuse is trance inducing, mesmerising, in early phases the target is 'lovebombed' or persuaded they are very loved. Once the abuse starts then it moves in sweet sour cycles, each cycle oscillatinG more and more. The sour being longer and longer. Eventually the target gets weary and withdraws. Then rage starts as the abusers seek more control.

The cycles themselves are conditioning the target to accept abuse. The main hormone involved is oxytocin which is both an alarmer and a sopherite. It's an addictive and induces a hypnotic state, even the normal brain biochemistry can alter and with plasticity the brain can change its structure, brain cells can die. Mast and stem cells wither and the whole body biochemistry and physiology can change. Illness can arise and often does with inflammatory and autoimmune illness especially being the norm.

Abusers can kill in subtle ways as well as the more obvious ones.

Extreme self care, and I mean extreme self care is needed for you and your daughters. For a very long time possibly the rest of your life.

Those are my thoughts

[Vanilla]

What is cheating? Infidelity? Adultery? Waywardness?

All of this is MORE than harming an R it is abusive and invalidating

Your spouse breaks your confidence

They discuss you behind your back with friends, relatives, Co workers. Instead of discussing issues with you they discuss them with others. They break your confidence and subtly others attitudes towards you change.

People you cared about go cold on you. These are neverositive discussions.

In due course these things may be said in front of you as if you aren't there. It's bewildering as much of it is slanted and biased. Confidentiality infidelity destroying trust and open R.

They gamble and spend their funds and joint funds


without permission or discussion. Who knows how much time money and other resources are going on these activities. This is your future, your kids education and wellbeing in retirement. And it is disloyal and it matters. This makes life insecure and of itself is enough to say D. My own personal view is that there is nothing worse for fin destruction than compulsive gambling and in D the remaining assets get split. A compulsive gambler is a poor parent putting their addiction before their children. If they are the provider a great chunk goes to their habit and if they are the carer less goes to the kids.
There is no winning, get out of the M fast. The G gambled 820k in sterling in 4 years, and then was awarded a chunk of my assets because he had no money. Don't fool yourself whatever is left will be split in two despite the other having wasted cash, in fact if you say they are a compulsive gambler then you have agreed they have nothing. You are better saying they hid the money.

They may also spend on things not needed to impress family friends and strangers!

If you wish to R fine but fin risk is enormous and this is weakness of the worst kind. It's not like alcohol drugs or food where you can see the effects, behavioural addictions gambling and porn and OP are often covert and the compulsive will do anything to stay in action. Financial infidelity destroying the foundations of security.

decides for both of you

Such as no children, no holiday, moving house. The G decided he would have a new car, we would sell the big house. We would do this, we would do that......
When I objected then I was not a 'we' person. But unless I agreed with every decision the G made or every opinion he had I was not a 'we' person. I had to agree with every little controlling thought or rule.

Not listening to the other is invalidating them. It is selfish infidelity.

Everything is more important in their life

Oh yes, jobs, events, sports, hobbies, addictions come first. Frankly if that's what someone wants to do that's fine, just stay single. They wish to achieve above all else, above their spouse or children? That's leaving the other feeling cheated, after all the vows do say above all. The spouse who is doing it all will feel really cheated. That's time and focus infidelity.

They don't contribute

When the chips are down, they aren't there. The kids are ill? No concern.
Dealing with a parent with dementia? Gone to golf thank you or deep in another work project. Laziness in dealing with important stuff. That's time infidelity.

Don't keep secrets

Your personal things are no longer confidential. Failed an Exam? Had an emotional event? Gut rot? Embarrassing event? Drunk driving? Ran over a deer? Photograph you want kept quiet?

The G posted some photos of me on FB which I had no idea he had. They were mine from before I even met him. This was after we were S. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

These things are no longer yours to disclose or not. Everything about you is for public consumption and jollity. That's further confidentiality infidelity.

They have secrets

Friends you don't know, they go places you have never heard of. They spend on things you don't know. I am not talking thoughts here which are their business not yours but behaviours. Actual actions. The G had a 'casual' friend he visited, a POW. I blew the gaff on him discovered he had taken days off work and spent the day at her home, smoking gambling, drinking and seducing.

Everyone has some secrets from their spouse of course, but big holes in their lives is completely unacceptable.

This is trust infidelity.

If your spouse is doing any of the above then it's infidelity and waywardness. If you are doing any of these stop! Disloyalty to your spouse is the worst of all. This shows indifference to you and your children and your M.

V

[Vanilla]

Remorse, true sorry and atoning

Quote from Dr Samuel's

There is a big difference between regretting the consequences to oneself of bad behavior (e.g., getting caught, paying fines, receiving other social sanctions) and experiencing genuine empathy-based remorse for the injury caused to others. For a person to experience any degree of genuine “contrition” which could prompt them to change their ways, two things must occur: (1) they not only have to feel genuinely badly about what they have done (i.e. guilty), but (2) they must also be internally unnerved about the kind of person they must have allowed themselves to become (i.e. shameful) to have behaved so irresponsibly. Their shame and guilt must then propel them to make of themselves a better person. True contrition always involves what the ancient Greek philosophers termed “metanoia” or “a change of heart.”

V