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#2735928 03/24/17 10:43 AM
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Wow, another thread.

Thank you for your words of wisdom Helies.

In addition to feeling melancholy, I am feeling so paranoid. Ugh. I hate that I am doing all this mindreading. I just need to stop.

Since I know H has filed, but hasn't served me, I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My sister in law is coming to town late next week. When I have texted her to talk about the trip she has been taking an unusually long time to respond. My mind assumes the worse. I assume H is going to have her serve me. I have this awful feeling that this is how he is going to choose to do it.

It is completely irrational on so many levels.

Right now I kinda feel like I am going crazy.

FightOn #2735942 03/24/17 12:16 PM
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I don't know if this will help or not. But I told my H from the beginning, that if you reach the point where you decide you want to file for divorce, have the decency to let me hear that from you and not from a process server who comes to the door that one of your children might answer. Perhaps if you get the service over, the dread can stop. You can call him on his bluff. In most jurisdictions you can agree to waive service (which saves the fee and gives more time to answer). Perhaps you could casually say I am getting the impression that you filed for divorce. While it is not my choice, I understand that is your right. Let me know if you would like me to accept service (talk to your lawyer first of course).

I just don't like the idea of you sitting in dread with some Damoclean sword hanging over your head. When service happens is really irrelevant in a legal proceeding and perhaps you broaching the topic will make it more real to him. As countless have said here, D is not necessarily the end. Dread is often worse than the event it fears.

Remember that a piece of paper, whether the complaint or the final decree, is just that. Feelings, emotions, reality, are quite something else altogether.

OwnIt #2735943 03/24/17 12:28 PM
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You forgot to link your old thread to this one, so I've done it for you.

Previous Thread:

Loosening My Grip

FightOn #2735984 03/25/17 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
Wow, another thread.

Thank you for your words of wisdom Helies.

In addition to feeling melancholy, I am feeling so paranoid. Ugh. I hate that I am doing all this mindreading. I just need to stop.

Since I know H has filed, but hasn't served me, I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My sister in law is coming to town late next week. When I have texted her to talk about the trip she has been taking an unusually long time to respond. My mind assumes the worse. I assume H is going to have her serve me. I have this awful feeling that this is how he is going to choose to do it.

It is completely irrational on so many levels.

Right now I kinda feel like I am going crazy.


I hate that anxious feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's not good for your mental or physical health and a terrible way to live. Roist gave me some great advice to let go of it. You can't control it. If it happens deal with it then. Dreading it won't make it happen or not happen but it will make your life miserable. Write down your fears and process them. You can control that.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Gordie #2735992 03/25/17 04:12 AM
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Gordie,

The advice you gave FightOn was excellent.

You have to live in the present because we sure don't know what the future holds and worrying about it will only give you an ulcer. Worry about the papers when you receive them. For now, enjoy your weekend and leave the MLC stuff in the closet.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2736008 03/25/17 07:57 AM
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Live in the present but be ready for the future. Don't bring the subject, if you bring it it goes against being detached and it might start another huge argument. Are you ready to deal with it? As you said, OW is not into him. So time is on your side.


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2736028 03/25/17 01:34 PM
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I understand the DB side of not bringing it up, but once the petition is filed there is a legal side as well. Most jurisdictions have time periods for which cases must make their way through the docket. What this can mean is that if there is waffling and time wasting at the front end, then events become compressed at the back end. I have been a litigator for 22 years now. What I can tell you is that when deadlines get short and people start reacting quickly, nothing good happens. People going through litigation (and have no doubt this is what divorce is) require time contemplation, processing, etc. If time gets short then it is like a stone rolling down hill.

If you can let go of the dread of waiting, then do. If you can't, remove that dread.

OwnIt #2736396 03/28/17 09:22 AM
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Hello there! Thank you OwnIt, Skyhigh, Job, and Roist for your help with this.

I sat on it over the weekend and gave it a lot of thought. I am going to ignore what I know.

Ownit - the time to respond to his petition doesn't start clicking until I get served. At this point, I am not concerned about having enough time to respond, etc. I have a lawyer lined up and a tentative plan in place. It's tentative only because with most things MLC, it seems we can never be 100% certain where things will go. He wants this, then he'll have to do the work.

I am going to learn to live with the discomfort and do my best to detach from it.

So I thought the passive aggressive nonsense was drawing to a close, but alas, he waited until Saturday morning to drop wheelbarrow full loads on me. The remarks kept coming. It has gotten so much easier for me to ignore it. My therapists have told me that people who do this don't even realize they are doing it. Knowing that does make me feel better about not responding. What good would it do? None. He would just get defensive and that would fuel his justifications. So for the time being, I'll put on my armor.

In the meantime, I am keeping up with the EMDR sessions and doing my best to move forward.

I had a very strange dream last night about my brother-in-law. We were having an affair!?! I remember feeling so alive and happy that someone was so excited to be with me. In the dream, my H found out about it and lost his mind. It all seemed so real. I was very discombobulated when I woke up.

FightOn #2736447 03/28/17 11:48 AM
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Just to clarify, we are talking about two different time periods. Yes your time to answer begins with service, but most courts will not allow an inactive case to sit indefinitely. Where I practice (I am a litigator), I have 120 days to get the case moving and then the consequences begin.

If you are ok with waiting, then by all means take that path. But please let go of the agony of the wait and accept that even if it comes, you can continue on as you have been. Many petitions are dismissed along the way and people do come back together after divorce. My daughter is an opera singer and I dearly hate the expression, but indeed it ain't over until the fat lady sings.

OwnIt #2736653 03/29/17 11:05 AM
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Thank you OwnIt! I didn't know your D is an opera singer! Wow! I have always been so amazed by their beautiful voices.

There has been a different feeling settling over me the last few days. It is difficult for me to describe. Perhaps its acceptance, maybe with some ambivalence thrown in, sprinkled with sadness. I feel like I'm letting go more and more.

Not having the answers to my questions has been a big part of my hang up. Not knowing what is true and what is a lie has also been a big issue. I think I am coming around to accepting that he can't or won't give me answers. Moreover, even if he did, I would need corroboration to believe him. I will just have to live with the uncomfortable feeling of never knowing some things. Laying these things down and just walking away from them is a difficult journey. But that is all I can really do. There is nothing I can do to get the answers.

S was ill on Monday. Fortunately, it was a work holiday for me so we just stayed home. He seemed better and I was going to send him to daycare yesterday, but when my mom found out she insisted on watching him. He is doing better so he went to daycare today.

H had a paper at school due last night so for the last few days he has been diligently working on it. It's been nice because it has limited our interaction.

One of H's older sisters is coming to town tomorrow. This should be interesting. My plan is to sit back and let him take the lead with regard to entertaining her. Afterall, she's HIS sister so it's his responsibility. Normally, I would contact any houseguest and find out what I should have on hand for breakfast, drinks, snacks, etc. to make their stay more comfortable. I would also arrange an itinerary of fun things to do. But I don't think I am going to do this since it his family. Or am I looking at this wrong? And should I tell him I am not going to do this?



Advice?

FightOn #2736669 03/29/17 12:05 PM
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i would treat everyone else as you always have. not everyone will agree with this tho.

xo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
bttrfly #2736671 03/29/17 12:18 PM
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I agree w/bttrfly...treat everyone just as you always have. Do not discuss what is going on w/your spouse w/his family. Blood is always thicker than water. Let them figure things out for themselves.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2736729 03/29/17 04:14 PM
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I agree with them. Don't forget she is your son's aunt too. Be a nice host.


Me 52+ WH 57+
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Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2736829 03/30/17 09:44 AM
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Thank you Job, Bttrfly and Skyhigh for your responses.

I was conflicted about how to handle the visit. On the one hand, it his sister and he has fired me from the job of wife, so I figured I should sit back and drop the reigns. But you all make good points. So I am off to the grocery store and doing some laundry before she arrives.

Our garage door broke. Ugh. I had pulled out of the garage and the remote wouldn't close the door. Normally, I would have called H and asked him what to do. Nope. Not anymore. I found a video on Youtube and figured out how to manually close it.

I felt proud of myself for figuring it out. Fairly simple thing, I know. But I did it. I don't need no stinkin' husband. Lol!

FightOn #2736831 03/30/17 09:48 AM
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Check the batteries in your remote and maybe replace them. Also, check the sensors on your door. You could have a spider/bug or a piece of dirt that is covering one of the sensor eyes.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2736954 03/31/17 09:48 AM
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Thank you for the tip Job. When I checked I realized the cables that pull the door up and down are shot. So new garage door it is. My laptop's motherboard is fried and I need new one of those too. Ugh. When it rains, it pours.

Sister-in-law arrived safely yesterday. We had dinner together, without H as he was working.

H and I had a brief exchange about the sleeping arrangements. I offered sister-in-law my room (the guest room) and I slept on the couch (which I actually don't mind). H was angry because he wanted sister-in-law to sleep in the master bedroom and H would sleep on the couch. I didn't want this because I get up at 4:45 in the morning and me coming and going from the master bath would be disruptive to sister-in-law. H offered me the master bedroom and he would sleep on the couch, but I am not sleeping on that bed.

He hates sleeping on the couch as it hurts his back. He wants to be a martyr and show sister-in-law what a great guy he is for sacrificing himself. No way am I gonna participate in that show.

When he brought it up he was seething and as usual, brought it up as I was walking out of the room. He hasn't moved from his place in the tunnel one bit.

He has also been father of the year. Doting on S and lavishing attention on him. It makes me sick to see this. It's so artificial.

Through it all I am maintaining my equilibrium and not reacting. It's business as usual.

There is a part of me that more and more says, hey OW, you want him? You can have him.

FightOn #2736957 03/31/17 09:51 AM
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Check to see if your cables can be replaced since money is a bit tight for you. There are companies out there that will do repairs on garage doors and sometimes it is far cheaper to go this route rather than purchasing new doors.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2736967 03/31/17 10:25 AM
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It really is funny how when you finally begin to detach the feelings of do I really even want this guy start popping up from time to time. I think I'm most sick of the games (like feigning interest in the kids or posting crap on FB trying to get my attention). The more authentic your own life becomes (no longer covering up a bad marriage for example) the less you tolerate this kind of thing. Congrats to you on the garage door! I have had many of those moments in the last few months and they are empowering. My D13 has been installing things around the house and I see the confidence this has given him too.

OwnIt #2737892 04/06/17 08:20 PM
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I was just wondering how you were doing?


Me 52+ WH 57+
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Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2738163 04/08/17 09:32 PM
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Hi there! S and I took a trip to visit my sister and her family for a week. It was a spontaneous trip. So much fun!

I will catch up Monday. So much to share.

FightOn #2738174 04/09/17 06:07 AM
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Good to hear you are doing well. Activities are the best to stay positive. Have fun with your son, build memories, kids are very sensitive to the mood of their parents. Remember if mom is happy, kids are happy. My kids and their guests are starting to wake up, I better take the path to the kitchen... Have a great Sunday!


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2738468 04/11/17 10:39 AM
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Hi there Everyone!

I have had a pretty eventful week.

I took S on a road trip to visit my sister, her wife, and their son. We stopped along the way and spent the night in a charming beachside town to visit a beautiful aquarium. We had a wonderful time.

The visit with sister in law went well. I was surprised H didn't take any time off of work to spend time with her. Regardless, she didn't serve me with divorce papers (he still hasn't served me). She did have a long talk with him and she relayed it all to me.

None of it is really all that surprising, but there were some things that make me curious and I wanted to ask you all about.

First, he said he wanted to work on the marriage, but decided too much damage had been done. He said I could no longer trust him and because I outed him and what he had done he could no longer trust me. If this is how he feels, it is how he feels (personally, I think it is an excuse not to try - it is an easy way out to avoid the work), but what I don't understand is this: he has written in his emails to OW that when he married me he "settled" and he never wants to do that again. If he "settled" then why would he want to work on the marriage?

Second, he told SIL that he feels he can "help" OW with her life. When SIL asked, "like what a father would do?" He paused for a long time and finally responded no. What is interesting to me about this statement is he told me that he feels like she "needs" him while I don't "need" him. I have heard/read this theme in other people's sitches. What is this at it's core?

Third, he told SIL that maybe some time down the road we might reunited. Oh, boy, do I have some problems with this one. Not the least of which is the arrogance and assumptions behind this. For him to think that I would just wait around pining for him gets my goat. And another thing, he has repeatedly written to OW that he just "knows" they are going to get married and have a family, etc. blah, blah, blah. I don't get why he would write this to OW, but say something different to SIL. What in the world is going on? Is he just telling people what he thinks they want to hear?

Fourth, nearly every single day he would send me a text asking me how S ate and how he slept. That is all he would ask. Never asked how he was doing or what he was doing. I find this odd.

Fifth, he never mentioned to SIL about what about OW that made her so special. It was all about how she made him feel. He said he felt a "connection." Don't they all say that? There was no talk about how nice she is, how smart, how charming, fun, whatever. I found that interesting. It would seem to me a sign that he is looking to outside activities to fix inside problems, no?

Lastly, he told SIL that he thinks OW is in a rebound relationship. (OW and her b.f. have been together about a year now.)

I bring some of this up, partly because I have not dropped the rope completely, and partly because some of what he is saying helps me see the insanity in all this.

My biggest obstacle is my focus on H and OW reuniting. I really don't want that to happen. I don't know how I could handle that. There are a few LBS that have had to deal with this - how on earth do you do it. I could care less if he hooks up with anyone else. For some reason, it is this OW that bothers me so much. And I just can't figure out why.

Nonetheless, I am still moving forward and trying to work on me. Wherever this journey takes me, I feel like I am getting stronger every day.

FightOn #2738489 04/11/17 11:43 AM
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Over all, everything he has told your SIL is MLC lingo.

First, they can't understand how we could forgive them for what they are doing and/or have done. They don't understand unconditional love. He got caught and you outed him. He can't trust you right now because he wanted to keep his little affair w/the ow a secret. To him, you can't be trusted...never mind the fact that he left you and your child and had an affair and continue to do whatever he's doing. So, to them, outing them is a huge deal and the affair part is just something that happened. Again, MLC lingo trying to justify why he's gone.

Second, he wants to be the knight that rides in on the white horse and rescues her. This is a very common theme for them because they want to be needed, adored and recognized for being the "savior" to the op. You don't need him because you aren't a needy, clingy individual...you are someone who can take care of herself and be independent. This is also MLC stinking thinking.

Third, yes, they think that we will be reunited at some point down the road. They think we'll be right where they left us and waiting by the telephone for them to call and say "hey, I want to come home". They are living in a very slow time warp and in our time warp, time doesn't slow down...we continue to move and evolve and yes, we change, our lives change and hopefully for the better. What the MLCer tells one person may differ w/the next one. They tend to switch up "masks" around different people. Yes, they tell people what they think that they want to here. Whether it's true or not, no one will know for sure.

Fourth, texting you is a way to stay connected to you. Maybe he is really interested in your son, but I suspect he's doing it to have that connection w/you or maybe he wants to appear to others as the good father checking up on his son. Again, mind reading isn't the best thing when dealing s/an MLCer.

Have you given any thought as to the fact that what he's telling your SIL is just exactly what he wants to get back to you?

My question to you is this...why is this particular OW bothering you so much? Do you know her personally?

I would suggest that you detach a bit more and allow that rope to drop a bit more. Why? Because he's still speaking the MLC lingo and trust me, we can't "assume" anything w/them when they are talking like this. Actions always speak better than words when it comes to the MLCer.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2738564 04/11/17 10:08 PM
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Fight, I know how you feel. When I thank about skank #1 I get far more upset than any that have come after (and to be fair I only know about a 2 but assume others). We view this as the person who destroyed our marriage, but deep down we know that is not entirely the truth.

Job, how is it that everything you say is so wise and universally applicable?

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OwnIt - Thanks for validating. I wish there was something more I could do to just "get over it." Part of my dread is knowing that she might be step parenting my son. I have a hard time with that.

Job - thank you so much for your insight. This board keeps me sane. A lot of what H said does sound like "excuses" and "justifications" to me. But I wasn't sure if perhaps my perception is skewed because of my emotional involvement.

Your insight about H telling SIL certain things knowing it will get back to me strikes a chord. It sounds like something he would do.

I have been pretty busy since coming back to work - catching up and all. It's a blessing and a curse.

H made another PA comment. He purchased S a camouflage jacket. When he pulled it out of the bag, in front of me and S, he snickered and said "Matthew, your mother probably hates that I got this for you. Hahahaha." I completely ignored the comment.

Yes, I hate the jacket, but not because it's camo. I hate it because of what it represents. H is former military and is encouraging (as much as you can with a 21 month old) to join the military. I do hate the fact that he is trying to push his preferences on S. He uses S to validate himself. S is just more narcissistic fuel for him and I really don't like that. H also projects onto me these types of feelings.

For example, he will comment "S, your mommy would LOVE it if you went to *** (my college) just like mommy did." Actually, I want S to go to the best school that suits him. "S, your mommy would LOVE it if you *** (played the sport I played)." Actually, I want S to do activities that HE enjoys.

It's really sad that he just can't own these feelings about himself. It's sad that he needs S to do the things H wants in order to feel good about himself. Really sad. It is so obvious to me what is happening, this is one area I have no doubts about.

I guess if he did own these feelings, that would mean he is taking a real long hard look at himself. And if I have learned anything, its that self reflection and MLC are like two repelling magnets.

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Good morning Everyone!

H and I have run the numbers regarding our taxes and boy is he mad!!! If we file together we will owe. If we file separately, he will owe, I will not. He needs me to lower what he owes. Guess which option I have chosen? Sorry, Charlie.

I would be willing to compromise in some way, but he hasn't offered and I don't feel compelled to "fix" this issue for him by bringing it up. He is a grown man; he wants to fire me as his wife, then a consequence of that is he will have to figure this stuff out on his own. If he is too proud to ask for help, then that is on him.

We were audited a year ago because of all the IVF related medical expenses we deducted. At the time we were going through the IVF I told him that I knew we would get audited so I asked him to keep meticulous records for tax purposes. Did he? No. Has he learned his lesson? No. When going over things he just kept ball parking numbers. I told him that won't work; he needs to have documentation. How has he not learned his lesson?

I don't know if he is just being lazy, or if he is careless, or if he just plain stupid. I am sure his mind has been on his OW fantasies as well. I am very angry about this. This has been a recurring issue in our marriage - where I see he fails to learn from mistakes. He does nothing to correct or change his behavior. It's incomprehensible to me. I would love to know where this comes from; maybe then I could have more compassion or understanding. When I have talked to him about this he tells me my expectations are too high. The old saying is true, you can't change what you don't acknowledge.

It's stuff like this that makes me think reconciliation would be nearly impossible. There is so much resistance on his end to acknowledge his part or to even change.

FightOn #2738775 04/13/17 09:40 AM
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FightOn,

You've tried to give him advice and he continues to ignore it. So, let the man swing and pay his taxes on his own. I do hope that the option you selected was to file separately and get money back.

You said it best...he fired you, so it's up to him to face the consequences of his actions, i.e., paying taxes. Let's face it, he's most likely relied on you for years and years to take care of things and he thought you would help him out of the tax situation...now he sees and feels (in the wallet) what it's going to be like now and in the future w/o your being there to rescue him and take care of things.

Leave him to stew in his pot of broth. He may or may not learn what to do about finances...right now...that's not your problem to solve for him.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2739168 04/16/17 09:16 PM
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Hello Everyone!

I am feeling a little down this evening because my SIL just send a ton of pictures from her son and soon-to-be daughter-in-law's wedding shower. It looked like so much fun. I was invited, but didn't go. Partly because of the situation, I wasn't sure if I wanted to go. I have fears/concerns/paranoia that eventually, that side of the family will cut ties with me. If H ends up with OW, there is no way they will continue including me. I was thinking maybe it's better to cut ties now and deal with the loss than to wait and deal with it on top of all the other inevitable losses.

Perhaps I am just borrowing worry from tomorrow. I do a lot of that since BD.

Seeing the pictures make me feel sad. I feel the loss of not being apart of the family I have known for nearly 20 years.

I am also sad when I think about all the memories my S will be making with them and I won't be included. There will be an entire ½ of his life I won't know and won't get to experience with him. Thinking of this makes me so sad. And angry.

I probably sound like a broken record to you all because I keep bringing up my S. This is the hardest part of all this. I really do wish H would have gotten that job 400 miles away. Then I wouldn't miss so much of S's life. What gets my goat is H has told me he never wanted S. And he certainly acts like that. How can he do something like this? I want to say that I don't understand , but I do, I just don't like the answer. I wish understanding made it easier and maybe it does, but I don't realize it.

You know, in all 21 months of his life, I have never spent a night away from him. Not one. How on earth will my heart manage?

I want to tell H what he is doing and how I am feeling. But I know it will fall on deaf ears. It's all about him. It would be an exercise in frustration.

FightOn #2739218 04/17/17 09:08 AM
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Yet another update, so quickly after the last one, lol.

I have some things I need to get off my chest.

S woke up this morning with a terrible, deep cough. He has had a few days now, but this morning it sounded worse. I immediately called my parents and ask if they could watch him instead of taking him to daycare. I felt like he needed rest, which he won't get at daycare. At least at home I know he will be more apt to nap and nap longer without other children and activities around to tempt him.

As I was changing his diaper I was on the phone with my parents and H walks in. When I tell him my thoughts and what my plan was he balks. (By the way, my plans to keep him home do not effect him in any way. I am the one who drops S off and pick him up from daycare.) H then asks me, if I plan on keeping him home from school all week because it is unlikely that his cough will suddenly be gone by the end of today. In my head I was taken aback by this attitude.

First, keeping him home does not impact his day one bit. It changes absolutely nothing for him. I don't understand why he wanted to argue with me about this? Why pick a fight about this? I am at a loss for understanding. He was hostile and a little aggressive in his tone. I felt like I was being attacked and severely criticized for my decision.

Second, it saddens be a great deal that this is the type of parent he is being. Rather than allow S to stay home and get some rest, he would rather him go to daycare? I cried on the way to work thinking this is how H will likely parent S when I am not around. S will get sent to daycare or school because it is more convenient for H. This breaks my heart. It absolutely brings me to tears every time I think about this.

I am trying to be strong. I am trying to pray to God for more patient and understanding and compassion. I am trying to understand what exactly is the lesson I am suppose to be learning in all of this? What is it? Should I be detaching from S too? Is this something God would be telling me I need to do or is it something else?

FightOn #2739219 04/17/17 09:12 AM
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Please take your son to the doctor. That cough doesn't sound good at all. Yes, keeping him home is the best way to do things, not only for your S, but also for the other children at daycare.

As for your h, he's not a happy man...so misery loves company and it doesn't matter whether your plans interrupt his or now. Also, what he was asking you about your S and daycare...this may have been the way that his parents took care of him. You have to keep in mind that their long term memory is far better than their short term one these days.

Again, I don't normally suggest that parents take their children to the doctor's office...but that cough doesn't sound good and could escalate into something more serious.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
FightOn #2739224 04/17/17 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
[/color]

First, keeping him home does not impact his day one bit. It changes absolutely nothing for him. I don't understand why he wanted to argue with me about this? Why pick a fight about this? I am at a loss for understanding. He was hostile and a little aggressive in his tone. I felt like I was being attacked and severely criticized for my decision.

Second, it saddens be a great deal that this is the type of parent he is being. Rather than allow S to stay home and get some rest, he would rather him go to daycare? I cried on the way to work thinking this is how H will likely parent S when I am not around. S will get sent to daycare or school because it is more convenient for H. This breaks my heart. It absolutely brings me to tears every time I think about this.

I am trying to be strong. I am trying to pray to God for more patient and understanding and compassion. I am trying to understand what exactly is the lesson I am suppose to be learning in all of this? What is it? Should I be detaching from S too? Is this something God would be telling me I need to do or is it something else?


[color:#993399]FightOn ....slow down. You went from a question posed from your H to a whole imagined future of doom for your child that had you in tears and questioning whether or not you should detach from your own, young son. Whew! That escalated quickly!

So, step back. Take a breath. You have a sick child. You made a decision to keep him home, made arrangements to have him cared for,
and your reasons are not only valid, but keeping him home for those reasons is encouraged by most schools and daycares (and work sites!). Ask yourself this: If it doesn't affect your H, why is his question affecting you, no matter what tone he uses? It is ok to stand by your logical decision and simply answer his question, nicely. Assume nothing about his intent or motives for asking. Many people (adults) believe you s*ck it up and tough it out...and think even small children should. You may have felt he was picking a fight, but that's an assumption. And assumptions are mind reading...and who can do that? Really, even if you know what he's thinking, does it affect your decision? Probably not.

A question is just a question and requires nothing more than an answer. Nothing more, nothing less. Our emotions about what's going on with our H do not need to come into play and effect our reply. Just the facts, ma'am.

As to assumptions about parenting when you're not around...your child will be fine, although maybe uncomfortable at times. If he's sent to school sick, most likely there will be a call or comment from the daycare about the appropriateness of this. It might even be a topic you bring up with XH or even the daycare as to a protcol...in the future. But that future hasn't happened yet, and you've made a decision for today. Be strong and simply stand, calmly, and answer the question...and leave it behind.

Pray to God for strength and patience...but as to what lesson you're supposed to learn from all of this? Maybe its just those two things I just suggested you pray for. It seems to be a recurring theme on these boards; praying for those two things is usually granted by becoming the lesson learned. It will get better.




M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

Kindness, kindness, kindness.
ciluzen #2739377 04/18/17 09:08 AM
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Thank you Ciluzen for the reminder to slow down. I have a bad tendency to escalate things in my head.

Thank you Job for your quick reply as well. I called the doctor's office and went in. All is fine. Just a bad cold. Per usual suggestion, if it worsens, call back.

In the meantime, H told me this morning that I am going to be served. He graciously added that he won't do it to me at work. What a nice guy, huh?

The conversation came up in the context of putting the house up for sale. He said he was going to have some minor repairs completed this week and then contact the listing agent. I told him that I am not agreeable to that.

Of course, he became angry. Per his usual M.O. he put on his work supervisor cap and began talking to me like I was some kind of minion in his employ. He went on and on about how he has no idea what my plans are and that I haven't share them with him. (Yup, totally own that) He also went on and on about how I don't talk. (Yup, totally own that.) I let him vent and he then he said, well, we can take care of that in the divorce. In my mind I thought, damn right. That's when he made the comment about not having me served at work. Lol!

After S woke up, a ton more PA behavior. He asked S to pick up his toys and then told him that it is good training to stay clean and orderly for when he joins the Marines (something he knows I have reservations about). Later on, more comments about sugar content of food and more preaching about the virtues of eating clean. (Insert eye roll here.)

Then when we weren't ready to be out the door by 7:15 a.m., he told me that in the future he would like us to be ready to leave at that time so he can be present when we drop S off at daycare and he can be on time for work. Otherwise, he can't be there for the drop off. My only reply was that I will continue to do the best that I can.

I didn't reply to any of his remarks, comments, rants. I just let it all flow through me. There is no point. And really, at this point, if I take position A, he will take position B. I don't see any point telling him anything just so he can contradict me or argue.

I am trying to focus on my future and the things that I need to get done.

I still find myself ruminating about H and the OW and wanting so badly that they not get back together. Them being together would just be another dagger to my heart. I don't know how much more can I take. I also find myself thinking that I want him to be unhappy. Intellectually and morally, I know it's wrong and selfish. I find myself wanting or thinking I need it to validate the way I see things (i.e., the marriage wasn't as he has rewritten it, I am not a terrible person/horrible partner).

While I know THEIR relationship has nothing to do with me; it feels as if it does. I don't know why.

I don't like that some outside event, completely out of my control, is something I am looking to help make me happy. It's like hoping a certain team loses so your team can advance. I've never liked that line of thinking.

Throughout this journey I have believed that the chances of H changing his mind were slim. And seeing what happens on these boards has confirmed it. Nevertheless, I charged forward with every ounce of my being to make change. In some respects I have succeeded and in that regard I am grateful. I won't be able to save the marriage and that is okay. I think I have slowly come to terms with that. What I still have trouble with is the thought that I am also losing my son. And that I cannot bear.

FightOn #2739403 04/18/17 10:55 AM
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I am so very sorry that he's acting out. He has no control over anything in his life, so he wants to control you and your son right down to what he eats.

Don't believe a thing he says about not serving you at work. Some of them say that and then turn right around and do it. My papers came in the mail several days after Christmas with nothing but one cents stamps all over the envelope. How's that for a lawyer's office?

He really is trying to justify what he's doing, but it's falling on deaf ears because you know that you are doing the best you can dealing w/everything.

Think of the ow this way...right now, it's a fantasy and one that both of them have been dreaming about. The sooner that they are together all of the time, the sooner they will see the flaws and warts of their situation. She's not getting a prize by any means, i.e., he's miserable and he's a "used" model. You had the best of him and now she's getting the shell of the man he use to be.

Take care of yourself and your son. You've done the best you can w/what you've had to work with. Continue moving forward.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2739408 04/18/17 11:37 AM
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Thank you so much Job. I am struggling right now. Your words are so helpful as I am so desperate for validation and support.

You really think he is out of control? He just seems so in control. Like he has everything figured out. I guess I am only seeing what is on the outside and what he is saying.

When I think about it the control thing does seem really important to him. For example, this morning I sent him a text asking him about his schedule for the weekend. He texted back, why do you want to know. I thought that was a hostile response, but responded politely that I am thinking about things I would like to do this weekend. Then he asked me if I had plans to take S on a overnight visit somewhere. (H is purportedly working an overtime shift Saturday evening into Sunday morning.) I sense a control issue. I had no overnight plans and politely responded.

Why do MLCers have such a strong need to control everything around them?

Should I hand over the reigns with regards to some things? Or should I do as suits me? Would it matter if he weren't going forward with D?

Thank you everyone. I am having a hard day and could use the support.

FightOn #2739414 04/18/17 12:23 PM
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MLCers are operating on pure emotions. When a person is very emotional, they can't always think straight and do things that they normally may not do. MLCers are that way. They may appear in control, but really they aren't. They want to control everything. They want to know everything you are doing, and yet, not share anything of their lives.

You have to remember, as children, they were seen, not heard, nor validated. They were "controlled" by authority figures, so w/going back in time, they need to be in control over something, be it you, the divorce, your child etc.

The way I read his response back to you is that he felt like you were trying to find out he is doing for the week. In his mind, he doesn't think he needs to tell you everything he does or what he has planned. Your request was a simple one, so I would suggest that you ignore his response back to you. It's really not about you, but more about him and how he's dealing w/his own life crisis.

I would only hand over the reins on things that you feel comfortable with. No matter what you do, it would still be the same reactions/behaviors w/him even if he weren't going forward w/the divorce. Once the divorce is finalized, you will need to think about having some Plan B's in place for child care and other things. Co-parenting w/an MLCer is difficult on the best of days.

Continue as you have been. Don't allow him to see you sweat! The calmer you remain, the better. If he sees that he is rattling your chain, he may very well continue to do so whenever he wants to control your situation.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2739435 04/18/17 02:02 PM
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Oh FightOn, I'm so sorry about being told you will be served D papers soon. I actually felt sick reading this especially how cold and clinical your H makes it seem. Like there is no emotion in it. Like telling you he won't serve you at work makes it better and you should be grateful. The whole legal system surrounding divorce is ridiculous and antiquated. It does not treat the people involved like living, breathing human beings. Being told you are going to be served is like asking if you can just stand still by that wall over there whilst I aim this gun at your head!

You are very brave to continue as you are. If that was me I would be a heap of nothing, fit for nothing. I'm absolutely dreading it. When my first H served me it was just a big brown envelope sent in the post and I didn't know it was coming. I still remember the sick feeling I had and if I had known then what I know now I wouldn't have been so quick to sort it all out. I thought legally I HAD to do everything straight away.

Thanks also for visiting me. I'm going to over to my thread now and respond to all the lovely messages.

Take care.


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
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Flight on,
I'm sorry your h told you about being served this week. It's not a good feeling, but I can tell you that everything your h is doing is just par for the course. There's nothing you can do about it. My ex also let me know that he went out of his way not to serve me at work. What a guy!

If I asked my ex a question, he hated answering, especially if it was to a question that would garner the slightest bit of control on my end. " hey Ex, should I pick up the dog registration on this date or this date." The response I would get was completely disproportionate to the question. I would get back a scowled face with a "I don't know, I don't know" response. Ahhh the aliens.

As Job said, continue to be the cool calm cucumber.


Me- 30's H- 40's
T-10 M-5
I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15
D filed by H: September 16
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I definitely think Job is right about the control. The beautiful thing here is that he thinks he has control by filing and proceeding with the divorce, but that very act will cause him to lose the control he seeks with you. I know this is hard. I am living it too. Right now you are feeling the fear. On the other side of that is freedom. You just have to go a little further into that uncomfortable place. Lean into that fear. Embrace it. You are going to survive and flourish. He and OW will likely not be happy as Job says. In time that won't matter to you because you really will not care.

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Oh thank you all for your responses!

Getting all this feedback and clear perspective helps steady me. I really do count on it to get me through.

Sorry this post is so long; there is a question at the end so feel free to skip ahead. Lol! I find writing this all out really helps me to see all of his anger, which I find puzzling. He is the one who cheated. He is the one who wants to quit. He is the one who is giving up; yet he has all this anger and hostility directed toward me.

My family and friends think it is because I refused to file and now he "has to be the bad guy" by filing, so here he is the "family" man who had an affair with a younger woman while his wife was pregnant and how he's leaving us. I also exposed his true self by exposing the affair. He is angry at all these things and blames me for all of it.

I realize it's all speculation. I guess I am just trying to understand something that is really completely irrational, emotional, and inexplicable.

When I am around him, I do the cool calm cucumber act. I find it actually really helps to try to remain detached and look at him objectively.

From this vantage point it is easier to see him spinning. It is almost like the calmer I am, the more ramped up he gets.

Last night when he came home, he saw S and I dangling our feet in the pool (we live in Southern California). It was a beautiful day and the water was warm. He walked up and startled me because I didn't know he was home. No introduction. No hi. He immediately launched into "do you think it's a good idea to have him put his feet in the pool since he is sick?" He apparently is of the school of thought that you can get sick from being wet or being cold. Ugh. I have tried in the past to explain to him that this is an old wives tale, but to no avail. Yesterday evening, I just pointed out that he was well enough to go to school and he is energetic and eating well, it's just a nasty sounding cold. He gave me the old geezer "hrmmmp" and then sulked.

He then proceeded to follow me and S around the backyard while we played. He didn't say anything. He didn't do anything, just followed. All the while he was also appearing to "inspect" the exterior of the house. He put on quite a good show. I completely ignored him. Funny thing is, so did S.

During dinner he made a quip about the mashed potatoes I make having too much "stuff" in them. He said next time he will make mashed potatoes with just mashed potatoes. (I put real butter, whipping cream, and some salt in mine.) His obsession with food is just nuts. I just ignored it.

When we put S down, S didn't want H. S kept crying and holding his arms out to me. He pitched a fit about H. H got angry, and said, I know, I know, you don't want me; it's all about momma. But remember S, you're stuck with me. Oh my. I ignored it.

After dinner he retreated to his room and hunkered down.

This morning, more snide remarks about the "sugary" breakfast cereal I was feeding S. Nevermind the vegan sausage, egg, and fruit that went along with the cereal. I ignored it.

I can't help but wonder if S also notice something unpleasant about H because there was more "no daddy, no daddy" from him this morning. He wanted nothing to do with H. H of course noticed and made some more angry/grump remarks. I ignored it.

So here is my question . . . H and I have different priorities and styles of parenting at this point. After we divorce, I know I will have no say in what happens in his home and vice versa. He claims he wants to "co parent" but the reality I expect is more of a "parallel" parenting scenario (he does his thing, I do mine).

I feel like he is trying to shove his style/preferences/ways onto me. Or maybe he is just trying to incite me or control me. Whatever it is, the reality of the situation is there will be two separate set of rules (for example, I don't care of S leaves certain toys out all over the living room overnight - H feels differently).

I may be speculating, or mind reading, and if I am, please feel free to tell me. I get the feeling he thinks/expects that I will follow his rules in my house. I am not sure he realizes that after the divorce, I no longer feel I have to collaborate with him on these types of issues. How he chooses to run his house is entirely up to him and how I run mine is up to me.

This may be a double edge sword of course because there might be something down the line that I would like him to do in his home. But the way I see it, I can ask him to enforce certain rules, but he doesn't have to. Moreover, the likelihood of him doing so, even if he disagrees, is slim. At least that is my expectation.

So, should I even point this out to him in some way? Is it worth it? Part of me does want to show him the reality of what this will be like, but I just don't know if me saying anything would be worth it or would even matter. I would want to tell him something along the lines you can do what you want in your house, and I will do what I want in mine. Since you fired me, there is no need to collaborate on these types of issues.

Now of course, I wouldn't say it exactly like that. It would be more diplomatic/neutral/matter of fact.

Lol, as I write this, I think, ugh, why bother. He has to learn these things on his own. Me telling him won't change anything.

What do you all think?

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I agree FightOn, I wouldn't say anything to him just now. Once he is out of the house the reality of him not having any control over you will hit him. Until then just continue to be the nice, cool as a cucumber FightOn!


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
FightOn #2739592 04/19/17 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
So, should I even point this out to him in some way? Is it worth it? Part of me does want to show him the reality of what this will be like, but I just don't know if me saying anything would be worth it or would even matter. I would want to tell him something along the lines you can do what you want in your house, and I will do what I want in mine. Since you fired me, there is no need to collaborate on these types of issues.


Nope .... there are 2 things that pop into my head as I read this.

1st- Understand there is co-parenting, and co-parenting with a MLCr, these are 2 VASTLY different things and you should have a different approach. You are spot on in the parallel parenting approach/concept, there will be a different set of rules in his place Vs yours. Mine is similar, my place is a safe house and less rigid ... my S feels free to express his thoughts and feelings and with her its chore after chore ... her house her rules. I understood long ago I can not do anything to change this, my S has adapted to this and has done well but there is no question whom he prefers to be with ... again .. not my circus nor my battles. Funny thing is he helps without asking and does more at 'our' place than he does with her ... not right or wrong but we do have different parenting styles.

2nd ... the statement "Part of me does want to show him the reality of what this will be like". Hopefully me just pulling it out will allow you to see this for what it is ... its that expectation filled statement .. if I just show him the error of his ways he might snap out of MLC and start behaving better .... MLCrs do not like to be called out on anything, nothing but a conflict will come of this and I can about bet my check he is not going to see it your way ... its all about him at this point and he has a fantasy built up in his head about how its going to be and you will not be able to tell him differently ... sadly they have to live it for a bit before doubt sets in. So yeah ... nothing you say/do will matter in this so why add stress to the issue?


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2739617 04/19/17 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
... sadly they have to live it for a bit before doubt sets in. So yeah ... nothing you say/do will matter in this so why add stress to the issue?


Cali, I needed to re-hear that today...I'm glad that I saw you posted to FightOn. Sorry for hijacking, but I am agreeing more and more.

They have to complete their own journey, even if it leaves a path of destruction in their wake.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
SBJ #2739619 04/19/17 02:53 PM
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Cali did a very nice job of explaining co-parenting w/a MLCer and also showing them the "error of their ways".

I would continue as you have been and when he moves out, he'll quickly learn that it's not as easy as he thought it would be.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Cali, Coly, SBJ, and Job - thank you! I am going through a lot right now and appreciate all the feedback and support. I don't know where I would be without this place and all of you.

Cali, you are so right about the expectation aspect of my statement. I didn't see it. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I would have expected the statement to have an impact, however small. And I know better. I know I should not no expectations and I know that there is nothing I can do to change his mind. Knowing that, there would be no other point to make that statement. So why make it.

I had a therapy session yesterday and my therapist encouraged me to talk to H about his comments about the foods I choose to feed S (i.e., H's obsession about sugar). The therapist suggested that my reluctance perhaps stemmed from fear that originates from my childhood issues. Unfortunately, I don't see it this way.

The therapist agreed that it will probably go nowhere, but it would be good practice for me AND it would make me feel better for at least trying.

I'm tired of trying.

The way I see it is this is MLC. Anything I say will be twisted around or he will use it to try to provoke an argument or worse, he will agree, but then turn around and still do the same thing which will only compound my frustration. This thought process may be counterproductive and it may involve mind reading on my part, but I really don't see any point in interacting with H anymore that is minimally necessary.

I have been able to step back and watch him. He isn't yelling, screaming, cursing, calling me dirty names, throwing things, or being physically abusive. None of that is happening. It is much more sinister than that. It's the constant passive aggressiveness, the talking through S to get to me, the veiled jibes about this or that, the contrarian viewpoints.

There have been points along this journey where I have sincerely doubted whether something was really amiss with H. Some of the things he was doing did not seem to fit MLC. I believed the cause of all this was solely me and my childhood issues. I don't know if the EMDR therapy is working or perhaps if his recent behavior has just gotten too much or what, but I don't see it that way anymore. How he has behaved this last week has been a clear indication to me he has issues too.

The sad part of this is I feel S is starting to sense something is amiss. He is becoming more clingy; he won't leave my side. This morning when I dropped him off at daycare was one of the worse mornings we have ever have. Normally, he is very happy and doesn't mind being there. Today was a different story. Ugh. Perhaps he senses something in the way H is talking? Perhaps he sense something in me as well?

I am utterly baffled at the hostility and anger he has directed my way. I just can't understand it. He is the one who cheated, who quit and wants out. He is the one who filed. Yet he is so angry at me. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Have any of you reached that point where you just don't want to talk to them anymore because you feel you know exactly where it will go?

Perhaps I am being lazy and taking the easy way out. Maybe. I also think I feel like I am tired of his shenanigans.

Maybe you can stick a fork in me because I am done?

FightOn #2739777 04/20/17 11:48 AM
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I do believe that people do get to a point where it's just easier to detach and leave the MLCers to their own drama. When I was going through this, I got to the point that I actually wished he were dead because he was like a bad penny, i.e., popping up when I least expected it, spewing and angry all of the time.

I know exactly what you are saying and trust me, sometimes it's best not to have anything to deal w/them, much less talk to them. Have you visited HaWho's threads? You might want to go back and read her earlier ones because her h has issues with the food she cooks and still does. You might find some valuable info in her threads that could help you.

Just remember...it's not you...it's him.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
FightOn #2739778 04/20/17 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
I am utterly baffled at the hostility and anger he has directed my way. I just can't understand it. He is the one who cheated, who quit and wants out. He is the one who filed. Yet he is so angry at me. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Have any of you reached that point where you just don't want to talk to them anymore because you feel you know exactly where it will go?

Perhaps I am being lazy and taking the easy way out. Maybe. I also think I feel like I am tired of his shenanigans.

Maybe you can stick a fork in me because I am done?


Hello FightOn,

Maybe he is angry with you because your DB efforts are working? It is easier for him to be passive aggressive with you than to reflect on himself and what he has chosen, right?

Sure, leaving might seem easier, but it isn't. Leaving just creates a different set of issues. Speaking with one of our DB Coaches will help you clarify your goals.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004


A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Cristy #2739920 04/21/17 05:08 AM
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Fight my H is obsessed with food and fitness and it has been a huge strain on our relationship, our family, everything. He is also massively PA. I recently read a book I saw mentioned here about living with passive agreessive men. It was quite enlightening for me. Much of what I have viewed as narcissim and MLC is described in the book. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you a whole lot about how to deal with these peeps. For me, as everyone here says, detaching is everything. I am finally at peace and starting to enjoy my life. His punches will only land if you let them. Next time he is talking to your S to get to you, just remember what a child he is in terms of his emotional development and give him your pity rather than your pain or frustration.

OwnIt #2739940 04/21/17 08:02 AM
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CaliGuy -

Wow, reading your sitch sounds a little similar. My W doesn't want to coordinate on any decisions regarding the kids, and we are still under the same roof.

She lathers on the rules with spew. They come to me so I may enforce the rules with guidance and calm. It makes her angry that they come to me (even though I am technically backing up whatever chore or task she just demanded) and then she searches for something gone wrong in the house so she can also spew at me.

Thank you for your post on co-parenting and trying to reason with the MLCer. On time. Needed to hear that right now.


M: 49, W: 45
T: 22 M: 15
S14, S11, S9
BD: Jan '16
W files: Oct '16
D final: June '18
Brubeck #2739950 04/21/17 09:03 AM
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Job - I like the bad penny analogy. And preferring him to be dead. Lol! Been there, done that!!! Thank you for the suggestion of going over HaWho's threads. I will reread them for further enlightenment. When I see him acting the way he does, it really is easier to accept that it is him, and not me.

OwnIt - "his punches will only land if you let them." Yes!!!! A great line to remember while he spews.

H seems to be cycling. Yesterday evening he was sweet and kind and considerate! He told S in a sweet sincere sounding voice, I am going to take out the trash cans, ask your mommy if you can come outside with me to help. What?!? I wanted to ask "Who ARE you?"

This morning he was as sweet as pie and talkative as ever. He tried to engage me in some conversation about some issues in our line of work. I responded politely, but with fewer words than normal. I didn't offer my thoughts, feelings, or opinions on the matter. S picked up a catalog I received in the mail and H asked him if he was picking out a Mother's Day gift for me. Huh?!?

He mentioned an event a nearby city is having in early May that S might enjoy and said we should go. What on earth?

I have no idea what is going on in that rollercoaster, fog-filled brain of his. I am doing my best to ignore it and not let it have an impact on what I do or say. I know I would drive myself mad trying to figure it out.

This does get easier over time. For me, I have noticed if I take myself completely out of the equation - do not react, limit my words and interaction (go "gray rock" on him), I can see his behavior independent of mine. And I can confidently conclude, it is him, and not me.

In the meantime, I am continuing my therapy and working on trying to figure myself out. I am not where I would like to be, but I think I am on the right road.

FightOn #2740569 04/25/17 10:25 AM
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A little bit of a frustrating weekend. S developed an ear infection from his cold. Poor thing. We took him to Urgent Care Saturday morning. He has been given some antibiotics and is on the mend.

During that time, H was up to his usual nonsense. He came home Friday night and inquired about S. When I told him his day care provider reported that he had an off day - H said "well, he was fine when he dropped him off." I didn't respond.

I have to vent for a moment. Rather than consider the fact that S could have started feeling yucky after we dropped him off, he makes that passive aggressive remark. So either I am lying or the daycare provider is lying?

Then Saturday morning after S woke up, S wanted absolutely nothing to do with H. S kept repeating "no daddy!" to everything H tried to do with him. H became increasingly frustrated. He didn't say anything to me, but at one point while in the kitchen and S was protesting to H, H mumbled, "hmmmm." I ignored it.

When I expressed concern about S's demeanor (lethargic and not eating), H minimized my concerns saying there is nothing the doctors can do for a cold and S just needs time to get over it. I just told H that if S didn't make a turn around by the afternoon, I would be taking him to see a doctor.

Five minutes later S threw up. To the doctor's office we went.

I am so tired of being treated like a piece of garbage. He uses me as a punching bag to avoid his own issues. The passive aggressive remarks, the minimization of my concerns, does wear on me. I am reminding myself that his behavior says more about him than me and that detachment is the key.

I'm getting there. But my goodness, this is a very long, bumpy road.

FightOn #2740570 04/25/17 10:29 AM
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OwnIt - I too have read a couple of books about PA and narcissism. Two of my therapists have said they suspect H falls on the unhealthy side of the narcissism spectrum, but they cautioned me that since they haven't spoken with him themselves, there is no way for certain for them to tell.

I have been secretly hoping a neon sign would appear above H's head declaring him an unhealthy narc. At least then I would have a more concrete picture of what is happening.

I think that would also tell me not to hang onto any hope of change. Maybe that is why I so desperately feel like I need to know.

FightOn #2740587 04/25/17 11:50 AM
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Fight, I know exactly how you feel. I feel like if I knew he were NPD, as opposed to a bad MLCer or PA, or someone with narcissistic traits just spiraling in the wake of this crisis, then I too could just let go and move on. The reality is that we will never know this. I have seen many counselors. Some believe in MLC, some don't. Some believe in NPD, some don't. All the behaviors I see in NPD I see people describing generally of people in MLC or affairs (lying, cheating, entitlement, abandoning children, unexplained anger toward me, gaslighting, silent treatment, addictions, etc.).

But, what if in this circumstance you had just assumed he would not be helpful and/or compassionate about your S, did not bother to fill him in and/or expect a response, and just taken him to the Dr. when you felt he needed to go. In the end, I think you would have been happier and more in control regardless of what he is.

I just try to have zero expectation of mine. At this point I look at him as a sociological experiment. Someone I observe from afar, but don't allow into my circle or to affect my moods.

My guess is that like me you are a little afraid to just plunge in and move on with your life. As everyone here says, that will either make you a better partner when and if he comes back or will help you weather the storm if he doesn't.

OwnIt #2740604 04/25/17 12:54 PM
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The narcissistic tendencies are not uncommon with a MLCr.... infact telling a therapist how your H/W is currently behaiving it would be a very simple and logical label to place on them from the outside looking in. Problem with labeling them a Narc is the fact ... its not really true otherwise you most likely would not have been married to them for 15-20-25 years right? Take my 25+ year relationship ... currently yes she has some very strong Narc tendencies but she was never that way prior to BD, sure there was some selfishness here and there, things she seen differently than I did but I would not have tossed out a Narc label on her 10 years ago. One does not become a Narc at the drop of a hat.

Truth is, your H lacks compassion and empathy at this moment because there is so much going through his brain he is not capable of these emotions right now. Dealing with them day in and day out can be exhausting, so you have to arrive at a detachment level where it no longer drains you. You and your reactions are the only things within your control ... you can not make him feel this or that, say this or that, do this or that. You must get to the point where you allow him to go through his journey without your help .... and as far as parenting goes I am here to tell you that the quicker you become both parents the better off you and your kid(s) will be.


M: 48
W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



CaliGuy #2740815 04/26/17 09:58 AM
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OwnIt - Sociological experiment! I love it!

CaliGuy - yes, I am trying to be both parents. It's exhausting!

I do need to detach even more. I was spinning a little bit yesterday. After talking with a friend I feel much better.

A new friend of mine confided in me that she was the OW in a relationship with a married man. Her friends at the time staged an intervention with another mutual friend who also was an OW. This other mutual friend was an OW for four years.

My new friend told me what they both experienced as being OWs. Hearing it directly from someone who has experienced it has helped the information I already know really sink in. (Why do I have to hear it from the horse's mouth and not just accept what people tell me?) Both OWs described it like being addicted to drugs, they loved the attention, they were living in la la land, everything else in their lives faded into the background, etc. All the things that have been discussed here over and over.

More PA nonsense from H this morning over S's antibiotics. H asked if I was giving S his medication (H isn't around when I do it). When I said yes, H asked rather surprised "before he goes to bed?" Which he KNOWS is not true since H has been around when S goes to bed. I told him, no, when I get home from work. H then commented, oh, he doesn't seem to mind it. I said, he doesn't like it and fusses when I give it to him. H said, well, when I gave it to him on Saturday, he seemed fine. Ugh. I just said, well, maybe it's just me, then.

At what point can I hit him over the head with a frying pan?


On a different note, I found a church nearby that has childcare. My mother is going to go with me for the first couple of visits to help ease any stranger danger/anxiety I may have. I am looking forward to this and am grateful for her support.

FightOn #2740817 04/26/17 10:10 AM
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Hitting him over the head won't help. In fact, he may have you arrested for assault. LOL!

We all have been where you are and you know what???? We all have to figure things out for ourselves and sometimes, we have to hear it from the horse's mouth. Why? Because you can't make this stuff up and sometimes hearing it from someone who has been on the other side helps us to better understand some of what is going on in their minds.

We all put labels on this mess and yes, we even try to determine if they have brain tumors or personalities...why? To try to justify the sudden and odd behavior. They may have had some of the personality disorders, but not enough to notice...but when MLC hits, it all comes out to play, i.e., because they are children all over again. They are self centered, self absorbed, selfish, rude, nasty and throw temper tantrums and yes, they even sulk. It's behavior, I am sure, none of us would have thought appealing had this been evident when we first met them and began relationships w/them.

You have to try to remember that you are dealing with someone in the range of 12-14 at this time and trust me, you can't rationalize w/him at the moment. HaWho has learned and now knows the age of her husband and right now, her sons are more mature and logical than her h.

I'm glad you've located some childcare near you. Check it out and if they are okay, I would seriously think of dropping your S off there a couple of hours at a time until both you and your S are comfortable w/the arrangement.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2740860 04/26/17 01:48 PM
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Quote:
At what point can I hit him over the head with a frying pan?


You have my permission.

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Re: My Foggy Glasses

« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2017, 12:45:17 PM »


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Ok, so I have had a funny suspicion that H and OW are in someway back together or OW has broken up with her boyfriend. I did some snooping (lemmie have it) and I think I have it confirmed.

I am just astounded at the lies H is telling her and the way he has vilified me. I really shouldn't be so surprised, should I? He lies to her telling her he cooks himself dinner (I cook, or we go out together). He clearly has not told OW our son is the product of an egg donor and that we went through four rounds of IVF to conceive him. He has gone on and on about what a great life they are going to have together and how he is going to take care of her when she is sick or not feeling well, blah, blah, blah.

Oh my. Their relationship is exactly like all the books and articles and posts I have read have described. Exactly.

I was really hoping it would work out with OW and her boyfriend.

I am just so afraid of having to share custody of S with them. I don't know how I am going to deal with it.

FightOn #2741226 04/29/17 07:26 AM
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MLCers lie not only to us but to others, they want others to see them as "perfect".

My WH lied to me but he lied to OW too, she confirmed it to me (we had several conversations). He even told her he asked for a divorce and I refused... he never did, I asked him if he wanted one, he said no.

Your husband is crafting that ideal image of himself to OW because he wants to impress her, he is becoming addicted to the ego boost she gives him. Since their relationship is based on la la land, none of his facts can be checked.

Copy his emails if you can, keep them for you, I don't think you can use them in case of divorce since they are coming from a private account, but if in the future you have to confront/have a conversation with OW at least you can bring your side of the story, it doesn't mean she will believe you at first, but the seeds will be planted.

Stay strong, I know PA is tough to handle, it requires so much self control and when you are exhausted, sometimes you just want to blow up.

I don't blame the snooping, I did the same and I gained a better understanding of what was going on, it helped me taking decisions. We need to know what they are up to to better protect ourselves and our kids.


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2741459 05/01/17 09:51 AM
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Hi Skyhigh!

I do keep the emails! Mostly as a reminder of the lies he tells the OW. I keep telling myself that a relationship built on lies cannot last. How could it?

Yesterday I went to church for the first time in a really long time. At the beginning of the service there were several songs that were sung. Two of them involving letting go and letting God. How appropriate, huh? I almost felt like I was being told something.

I have also started listening to a book called the Chimp Paradox. I am learning about how my limbic brain hijacks my logical brain. I am hoping this will help.

S and I went to a PetExpo on Saturday. We saw so many dogs, it was wonderful. I really miss having one.

Nothing much to report on the MLC front. There hasn't been any PA behaviors in a couple of days. But then again, I really haven't been around much.

FightOn #2741810 05/03/17 12:19 PM
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Hello there.

I have been listening to some podcasts on limerance. This whole concept of limerance is interesting since it seems highly relevant to my circumstances.

However, I have my doubts. Not that it applies, but whether it is really a "thing" or whether it is something that is invented to explain wacky behavior by straying spouses. I am worried that I am kidding myself into believing in this concept.

What do you all think?

Last edited by job; 05/04/17 04:50 AM. Reason: removed name of podcasts' orginator
FightOn #2741948 05/04/17 01:22 PM
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My thoughts have been floating around the notion of how much I have learned about myself, psychology, and how my past has impacted my current life. It feels like a Grand Canyon full of knowledge has been poured into my brain.

These thoughts lead me to question whether H is willing or capable of doing the same. As I peruse these threads I see LBS after LBS moving on and away from their MLC/WASs. The MLCers and WAS are left in the proverbial dust. Statistics are not on the side of marriage recovery. Even marriages that seem to have recovered have hit obstacles again. I feel sad about that.

But I think that is something I am starting to more easily accept. It is really hard for a person to look at themselves and own their mess. It's even harder to admit these failings to someone else. When I think about having to humble myself before my H in order to reconcile, I cringe just thinking about it. There is so much resentment and distrust. And really a lot of disbelief that he could do the same. I am reluctant to bare my soul to someone who is capable of inflicting this kind of harm on me. I suppose if I did it, I wouldn't do it all at once. It would be like peeling back the layers of an onion. Maybe I could do that. I have very little faith he could.

FightOn #2741968 05/04/17 05:06 PM
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Fight I know exactly how you feel. I am optimistic about myself and my happiness, but not at all in his ability to be someone I would want to be with.

OwnIt #2741982 05/04/17 08:13 PM
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this hits home.

I've heard things my kids have told h that are not "supportive" of his new found happiness.

H says he is going to a T, which would be the first time he's ever gone as an Individual (actually for all I know, he's going with OW...)

Anyhow, here are a few random thoughts on "what if?"

at least in my situation,

h would have to have a seismic change within, to see that he has inflicted tremendous damage and pain on the 4 people who loved him the most.

He'd have to see it AND regret it deeply AND communicate that in a way other than a "sincere but really short all is well NOW, right?" way

and humbling himself is not a skill he has. (Humbling himself privately - not to grovel for ME or the kids - but in facing the damage he has caused IS humbling to a normal person)


Then add in the work they'd have to do to earn your desire to work on things

AND to ever trust them again AND to ever really give yourself fully as you once did.

And the odds get smaller...

I wish I had pieced better with h after we recon.
His mom got cancer and we shelved it and never really went back to h's underlying issues

so here we are


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2741988 05/04/17 08:58 PM
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PS

I do think I'll be fine in the relatively near future. Knowing that helps me a lot, now.

here is something another DBer wrote to me that was also helpful (and she knew my h)


Please, 25, - everything he says is just bs at this point.

25 - IDK if your h will ever be able to be truly at peace with what he has done to you and the kids...

Seriously.

Not saying this to console you, or make you feel superior; but I think he will be haunted by his actions - one way or another - for the rest of his life.

If he is a decent human being, regret, shame and guilt will
sooner or later get the best of him.

You simply cannot inflict such pain and damage to those who Love you the most, and emerge unscathed.

And if he is truly devoid of kindness and empathy, then you are better off without him, despite so much pain and destruction.

You WILL rise above all of this and THRIVE.
You just need to have faith (even when sometimes you cannot fathom things getting better) and really fake it till you make it.

You and your kids deserve better after so many years of struggling as a family.


this^^ I believe in my heart.

Like most of us, there is a deeply rooted fear, even if we know it's not true, that NOW the h will "really be happy b/c the problem was ME all along"...

and that is what the WAS (whatever label applies, narcissist, MLCer or just a selfish critical controlling spouse, does to us...BLAME, play the victim and project a ton of crap we sometimes begin to accept at a subconscious level.

I have to examine my stuff, such as my ability to ignore red flags and

why I only saw what validated my choice to stay, (among many other things I need to work on).

When I ponder what his regret might look like (I still have those fantasies, I admit. I just don't know if it's my ego or an actual desire OR that we 've been married so long I cannot really grasp what life will be like without h)

but I envision more realistically now.

So h could apologize on his death bed with a feeble "I guess i could have handled things better"

OR he could just shake his fist, still mad at me for "trying to take away all HIS money"....

equally possible.

h might really never look at his choices and never dig deep to settle some issues that I know he has had, even before this debacle. Never see the pain he caused or never see the connection between his behavior and his lack of good r's with our kids...

Seeing them twice a year (someday) might be enough for him to feel good bout himself as a dad

or blame me for "turning them against" him...who knows?

I think all we can do now is our end of things to "up our joy score" in the equation of life.

No matter what they tell us, or act like OR even if they really are "happier",

that may not have anything to do with us

and so its about us getting ourselves to a good place?

I mean, isn't that all we can really do, now?

The man I married and loved deeply for decades, is for all intents and purposes,

dead to me.

When I think of it that way (not gleefully, just that he's NOT a factor in with my choices)

I do feel a lot lighter and freer.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2742023 05/05/17 07:11 AM
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Sorry for the hijack

but hope it relates enough for you to find some value.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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25 - no need to apologize. I didn't think for even one second your comments were hijacking. They are highly relevant. I have been following your sitch and have also read many of your comments on other threads. I find what you have to say so insightful and helpful and I don't comment because I think to myself, what can I add? Lol!

The seismic shift you wrote about is exactly how I feel as well. H is not someone I would date I wouldn't even be interested in him as a "hook up." Ick.

There is a vast array of things he would need to work out in his head. So much unpacking. I know how hard it has been for me on my end, and I am not someone who doesn't or can't let myself feel. It is hard to imagine someone learning to finally feel and identify their emotions and evolve into someone who has insight into their behaviors, particularly when they have been this way for 48 years. Almost half a century.

The person in that situation would have to be highly motivated. Motivated to do the work, to try, to fail, and then in the face of failure and frustration,keep trying and working. What could possibly motivate a person under those circumstances to keep at it?

Falling flat on their face. Losing everything?


Like most of us, there is a deeply rooted fear, even if
we know it's not true, that NOW the h will "really be
happy b/c the problem was ME all along"...


This ^^^^ is exactly the root of some of my struggles. I can't shake those thoughts. They pull me in and I have to use every ounce of strength I have to pull myself out. There have been so many moments where I have been overcome with sadness at the thought that H will truly be happier without me. And worse, happier with OW.

I want to believe so badly that it won't happen. I also want so badly to believe the part about him coming out of this unscathed. But there is a part of me that thinks otherwise.

All this returns me back to the notion that none of that is in my control. Not my circus, not my monkeys. So the road leads back to me.

FightOn #2742176 05/06/17 08:09 AM
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I love the term "Unpacking".

When I think of my actual flaws and wrongs, things I want to face and own, it's incredibly humbling. Brings me to my knees when I think of the mistakes I made as a mother (a lot of it marital related, but not all).

And it's time consuming and deeply painful...but I have started on my path. I stumble on the path, with anger and regret. So I will try to soothe and forgive myself along the way (or it'll be too much.)

Imagine just for 3 minutes what YOU would feel like, if you were in your h's shoes, (and with the bravery you have shown inwardly).

Imagine how it would feel to own the pain you inflicted on others, the broken agreements and collateral damage,

AND imagine then, that you were to face the work ahead just to be on "decent terms" with those hurting people, suspecting & fearing that down deep, you'll never be very close.

Imagine how much work it would take to repair the r's, and to make them actually good again.

So, what are the options?

Would you run, surround yourself with others who don't know the truth or history of damage, and or anesthetize yourself in some way,

and or just collapse in a heap?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2742178 05/06/17 08:19 AM
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wow

I just noticed that among the "options" I listed, was not "do the gut wrenching brave and HONEST WORK and put in the TIME to repair your r's..."

b/c I guess I just know it's not really an option for my h.

yikes...that's some brutal reality.

I'm feeling the "missing the h I had" pieces of life, to be shorter and fewer.

Flotsam, when I'm as open to this reality as I can be, knowing what I know now,

no, I would not do more than have an interesting dinner with h. (Assuming he was in a good mood, which got rarer).

He was NOT a good h for me for the past X years, (who knows exactly?)

H was an absentee, controlling, demanding father. The girls felt unloved. That's just so sad but they say it's true.

Hard to know when this^^ happened, what years were real, and or how long I was blind.

UGH cry

I'm redirecting my "camera" now and trying to make this a transformative experience that is not laden throughout with pain and guilt and self doubt

and instead, is one of hope and optimism and faith. I swear I'll get there.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2742457 05/08/17 01:10 PM
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Imagine just for 3 minutes what YOU would feel like, if you were in your h's shoes, (and with the bravery you have shown inwardly).

Imagine how it would feel to own the pain you inflicted on others, the broken agreements and collateral damage,

AND imagine then, that you were to face the work ahead just to be on "decent terms" with those hurting people, suspecting & fearing that down deep, you'll never be very close.

Imagine how much work it would take to repair the r's, and to make them actually good again.

So, what are the options?

Would you run, surround yourself with others who don't know the truth or history of damage, and or anesthetize yourself in some way,

and or just collapse in a heap?



It's hard for me to imagine what I would do, but it is easy to see how the choice to run would be natural.

Thanks for putting this in perspective 25. You are such a gift. Your words have helped carry me through some very dark days. And you probably never even knew.

(((((25)))))

H's nephew is getting married next month several states away. It is about a three hour flight. I am much closer to this nephew than H. The nephew asked if I would be attending and I told him no.

H's sister, nephew's mom, texted him over the weekend and asked H. H then texted me and asked me what I thought about attending. I told him I would like to go (which is true, but the thought of a long plane ride with a toddler, renting a car, etc., etc., is more than I can handle on my own.) He said he would like to go as well. So, we're going. It's so strange. He has filed for divorce, hasn't served me, but wants to go to his nephew's wedding. Probably because I will act as cover for him. And for the same reasons I wouldn't want to take S by himself, he wouldn't want to take S by himself. I am willing myself not to read anything into it.

We attended a train show with S over the weekend. There was a company putting on a display that is in my H's exact same line of work. They were displaying their "toys." There were children climbing on the equipment, hanging out with the employees, etc. S had zero interest. H was clearly hurt and even commented that S had zero interest in looking at the equipment. He took it personally and was genuinely hurt. My goodness, S isn't even two years old. He has the attention span of a gnat.

I don't know if this is MLC related or if H is really this sensitive. It's hard for me to imagine what he would have been like in this scenario pre-MLC.

I didn't say anything to H or S about H's comments. I don't think S even heard them. But I did find them bothersome.

After that incident he went on and on about how he has asked other parents about little boys' fascination with trash trucks and S isn't a weirdo because other little boys also like trash trucks. What?!? He thought S was weird because he was fascinated with trash trucks? Really? Again, he isn't even two.

I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. What does one even say to a comment like that? "Thanks for not thinking our S is a weirdo." "Thanks for doing some research and taking a consensus."

Like the other comment, I don't know if this is MLC or just who H is at his core. Regardless, I don't like it and I am bothered by it.

FightOn #2742465 05/08/17 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
Imagine just for 3 minutes what YOU would feel like, if you were in your h's shoes, (and with the bravery you have shown inwardly).

Imagine how it would feel to own the pain you inflicted on others, the broken agreements and collateral damage,

AND imagine then, that you were to face the work ahead just to be on "decent terms" with those hurting people, suspecting & fearing that down deep, you'll never be very close.

Imagine how much work it would take to repair the r's, and to make them actually good again.

So, what are the options?

Would you run, surround yourself with others who don't know the truth or history of damage, and or anesthetize yourself in some way,

and or just collapse in a heap?



It's hard for me to imagine what I would do, but it is easy to see how the choice to run would be natural.

Thanks for putting this in perspective 25. You are such a gift. Your words have helped carry me through some very dark days. And you probably never even knew.

(((((25)))))


right back at you.




H's nephew is getting married next month several states away. It is about a three hour flight. I am much closer to this nephew than H. The nephew asked if I would be attending and I told him no.


if you have known them decades AND he asked you, why wouldn't you go? My ex sil (my brother divorced her) is still a big part of my life.

OH SIDE NOTE about inlaws...
maybe this is just me and my family

but when my oldest brother did HIS MLC on his lovely first w,

all 3 of my sisters and I said he was being a fool.

Here is an actual conversation I had with him:

Me: I think you are blowing a good thing.

Oldest Brother: are you going to disown me as your brother?

me: No, I won't 'disown' you . But I think you're making the biggest mistake of your life.

Oldest Brother: thank you.

see what HE heard? That I would not disown him, so his choice OR the consequences of it were fine...


I've done more with my former SIL in terms of vacations and real conversations in the past decade, than with my brother. Literally.

No, my brother is not all happy. He is still melancholic. He remarried a lovely woman years after the Div (a woman his own age, btw). They've managed to have a child. She is my brother's second child, and he was a lazy dad in his first M. So he got a do-over.

And he's still a kind but inattentive lazy dad (he has no temper and he is not critical)

He's still pathologically conflict avoidant and self absorbed. Also a bit gloomy now.

He still the lacks emotional energy to be a dad with a 5 y/o And he's 63...He'll be 75 at her high school graduation. His older d24 is getting married this fall and she TOLD me she sees her dad "more like an uncle".

Ouch


Point is, you never know what the MLC/WAS family really truly feels
...just b/c they don't disown their family member does NOT mean they approve and does not mean they don't care about you.

H's sister, nephew's mom, texted him over the weekend and asked H. H then texted me and asked me what I thought about attending. I told him I would like to go (which is true, but the thought of a long plane ride with a toddler, renting a car, etc., etc., is more than I can handle on my own.) He said he would like to go as well. So, we're going. It's so strange. He has filed for divorce, hasn't served me, but wants to go to his nephew's wedding. Probably because I will act as cover for him. And for the same reasons I wouldn't want to take S by himself, he wouldn't want to take S by himself. I am willing myself not to read anything into it.


then don't read anything into it. Just be glad you are welcome by a family that still cares and also, so your son can meet some of the "normals" there.

-S had zero interest. H was clearly hurt and even commented that S had zero interest in looking at the equipment. He took it personally and was genuinely hurt. My goodness, S isn't even two years old. He has the attention span of a gnat.

I don't know if this is MLC related or if H is really this sensitive. It's hard for me to imagine what he would have been like in this scenario pre-MLC.

well, you don't know. No need to deal with it b/c honestly, this is small potatoes.

I'd bet in 5 summers IF IF they see each other much your son will feign or have a real interest and then ditch it, (I would not assume your h will exercise whatever custody he actually gets. )
-

I didn't say anything to H or S about H's comments. I don't think S even heard them. But I did find them bothersome.


Not sure why this^^ struck a chord in you. Interesting.

Perhaps Your h is just PA and so self absorbed and wants his son to mirror him, (but without dirty diapers, or needing a nap or having a cold)

Maybe he only wants his son to be the president of the "daddy fan club", etc.

Remind yourself of what many including me must....it's Not our sandbox, right?


After that incident he went on and on about how he has asked other parents about little boys' fascination with trash trucks and S isn't a weirdo because other little boys also like trash trucks. What?!? He thought S was weird because he was fascinated with trash trucks? Really? Again, he isn't even two.

I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. What does one even say to a comment like that? "Thanks for not thinking our S is a weirdo." "Thanks for doing some research and taking a consensus."


Slow down...don't escalate internally. Lots of mind reading...

IMO he's checking other parents b/c he's a new father

(and maybe b/c he's still without a fan club president in your son). I would read nothing into this.

90% of parents will tell him the same thing we are telling you, it's not a big deal and your son is not a weirdo.


Like the other comment, I don't know if this is MLC or just who H is at his core. Regardless, I don't like it and I am bothered by it.




Letting go of what we cannot control is a huge challenge, isn't it? This^^ fits that category but you probably already know that.

FWIW I don't see your h as the type to use up whatever visitation he gets so that's one worry I would not have in your situation. Seriously, as awkward and confused as he is by your son NOW, I cannot imagine him handling the time (with or without any OW) well and

just document how that all goes if and when it happens.

Maybe you can Shelve the "what if son ends up preferring H or them, to me?" fears, which may be a piece of this??

When is the wedding and how are the arrangements going to be for you? Relatives home or Hotel?

Sitters? Can you get someone to watch your son so you can enjoy the wedding?



M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2742495 05/08/17 06:33 PM
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Fight, I feel like you are buying into what he says about you and you are believing it at times and at others trying to prove him wrong. What he says is irrelevant. It is word salad. The guy he is right now is no good for you and your son period. Nothing else matters. You work on you. A divorce is a piece of paper. If he comes back as someone you can deal with great, if not, just not being around that negativity and posturing day in and day out will be a blessing. 25 is right, narcissists like little kids. They don't like kids who talk back and have opinions. He is not going to be playing super dad forever. I have to deal with mine very little and usually only when I worry about the kids and try to get him to see them. Note to self--stop doing that. You can do this Fight. You are stronger than you think you are.

OwnIt #2742765 05/10/17 09:01 AM
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25 - thank you for the reassurance regarding H's visitation rights. Others in real life had told me the same. I hope you are right.

OwnIt - you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes I do buy into what he says about me. Maybe more during the marriage as opposed to now, but I am sure some of those uncertainties still linger. I am desperately trying to resolve in my mind what issues are mind and what are his. H has done a lot of projection and blaming so I am sorting through what I really need to own.

For example, my son's electric toothbrush has stopped working. H has been to the store on a number of occasions since it has stopped working, but hasn't bought a new one. He has bought sundries for himself and OW. In the past, before MLC, I would have expected H to be thoughtful and helpful and to have enough forsight to buy a new one. (Of course, now, I expect the current behavior he is displaying.)

In a normal, non-MLC relationship, would that really be too much to expect? Under normal, non-MLC circumstances, would that be unreasonable of me?

When I stand back and think about it, I certainly don't think so.

It is these kind of things that I question. What do I need to own? What is him and what is me? If it is me, then I want to add whatever the issue is to the list of things I want to work on.

We are working on the arrangements for attending the wedding; it's in mid June. We will be staying at a hotel together in the same room. Ugh. Part of me wants my own room, but another part of me thinks this might just be me wanting to punish H, so I won't push the issue. If he becomes too annoying, I can leave.

I don't mind watching S during the wedding. Plus, he will be a convenient excuse to leave early. Oftentimes, I can only take so much of his family.

FightOn #2742778 05/10/17 09:38 AM
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I think you have to leave the universe of normal. People in MLC (and narcissists and PAs) have no empathy. He is not going to think about you and S. The "empathy" for the OW is nothing more than love bombing. It isn't real.

Next time, you go out and buy the toothbrush and stop waiting for him to do it or take notice. You cannot have expectations of this man. If he does something nice or thoughtful, thank him for it (even if it is something a decent person would have done).

OwnIt #2742784 05/10/17 10:20 AM
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Thank you for the input OwnIt. I don't expect him to buy it. Not at all.

You are so right about the NPD/PA lacking empathy. Thank you for reminding me about the love bombing nonsense. It is really crazy. And frankly, I am surprised it has been going on as long as it has. I would have thought it would have fizzled out by now. I am sure it is draining for him to put forth so much effort it's hard to believe he can keep it up for this long. Lol! Of course, this, causes me to wonder, is it because of me? He could put in all this tremendous effort for someone else, but not me? It must mean there is something wrong with me.

Am I jealous, yea, kinda. How I would have loved for H to put this much attention and focus on me and our relationship.

But I digress.

I was wondering if I were in a normal relationship with a normal human being, if I were to expect my significant other to think of and buy the toothbrush is that too much to ask? Would my expectation under those circumstances be too high?

I am asking because I am sincerely concerned that my expectations of others might be too high. I don't know if this is a real issue or something H is using as an excuse/justification/projection/etc., etc. I want to know for ME to work on ME. Lol! If my expectations of my significant others is too high, then that is something I will need to investigate to be a better person.

FightOn #2742827 05/10/17 01:07 PM
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No, that is completely rationale and normal. One of the ways I can tell whether mine is "checked in" to me is whether he is doing things for me. I figured out his LL is acts of service. On his last touch and go in March he figured out that our cats were chewing through all of our power cords and went out and bought some for us. This time he is cleaning out the garage. When he lived at home, if he was giving me my vitamins every day then I knew he was in. As soon as he stopped, I knew he was out.

From what I've read NPD usually has a 3-6 month period they can wear the mask. My guy is definitely a three monther. After that, it is too tiring for them. It literally takes all their energy. Keep in mind also that it generally takes something like 7 tries to leave an NPD relationship. Therefore, they could be bickering, fighting, and making up for all you know. Again, that is what mine does.

OwnIt #2742834 05/10/17 01:51 PM
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Hi OwnIt - quick question. What happens when they have to take the mask off after the 3-6 month time period?



Also, when you say it takes 7 tries to leave a NPD, and they could be bickering - are you referring to H's relationship with OW?

Thanks!

FightOn #2742858 05/10/17 07:26 PM
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Fight:

They grow weary of the time and attention they have to put into the relationship. Also the lovebombing, the feigning interest in another, not being the one who is catered to. They begin the silent treatments, the hot and cold behaviors, lying, cheating, etc.

Mine quickly starting fighting with the OW (I saw the phone records). Within 2 months of him moving into her house, they were broken up again. They got back together for another month or so and then I think she ended it for good (she is borderline--they paint people black and tend not to go back).

The 7 tries could be the OW or even your own. Narcissists dont leave permanently. They always reserve the right to come back if low on supply. Some have even come back 20 years later. They do lots of temp checks along the way.

As with MLC, the relationship is over when you say so. Do you reaaly want to deal with this the rest of your life?

OwnIt #2742925 05/11/17 10:12 AM
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I've been reading and following along on the conversation about the NPD and personality issues. Just as we put a label for odd behavior and the irrational behavior here as MLC, let's be careful in attempting to diagnosis personality disorders of our wayward spouses.

You may already be aware that as children and young adults, they do exhibit some of the selfish, self-absorbed behavior, as well as wanting everything to be about them while singing the song entitled "Me, Me, Me". They become infatuated w/someone and they pull out every little trick to get that person's attention, etc. and once the euphoria has worn off or that person can't serve their needs, they tend to break it off. As well as fighting and getting back together w/some people. Children tend not to like to share their toys w/others and do not like it when others get more attention than they do. They can become a bit mean to others when they see that the attention is being put elsewhere and not on them. In many cases, the behaviors that carry thru life as "learned" behaviors, i.e., just as Passive Aggressive behavior is a "learned" behavior. To them at a young age, it is for survival.

At midlife, those that can't cope and haven't learned to navigate the stressors of life during their quarter lifes' crises, they can and most of them will exhibit various symptoms of some personality disorders. The real question is this...think back... did your spouse always have these symptoms and you just overlooked them or did they come out to play during his crisis? If you say that they are more pronounced or came out to play during the crisis, then I would venture to say he/she may not have the true blue NPD or Borderline. Only a trained professional can tell you this.

Try to remember that your spouse has gone back to a time when he/she was emotionally stunted, most likely as a child or young adult. He/she has to figure out to face those issues and begin to navigate the process of growing up. Many of the behaviors and comments you hear are from his/her past. They really are trying to find themselves, the inner child is busting out and needs to grow up. So, yes, we do see a lot of personality issues and it's human nature to try to pinpoint which behaviors they are exhibiting.

BTW, it's only natural that you are searching for answers for their behavior. I did it too a long time ago. I read every book and article that I could find and at the end of the day, I realized that my xh had to figure things out for himself and that I would never find all of the pieces of the puzzle to figure him or his childhood out. I came to realize that I only had one life and I was going to live it to the fullest. If he ever work up, I would then cross that bridge...but he's still out there searching for that illusive happiness, while I am putting my focus on me and my life.

You and only you, can decide when you've had enough. There is no guarantee that if and when your spouse wakes up that he/she will be the same. Some will wake up and bring along some of the behaviors that they had during the crisis and others will be completely different and, there are those that never wake up and remain lost people. Both you and your spouse will have changed because of the experiences that you've had along the way...but we can't predict the future and again, you are the only one that can determine how long you wish to keep the door open and the candle burning in the window.

There are some books on the Recommended Reading Materials thread that may be of interest to you. Here's the link go the Recommended Reading Material:

Recommended Reading Material


Last edited by job; 05/11/17 10:23 AM. Reason: Added a link to another thread

Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2742936 05/11/17 10:58 AM
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Great points Job and ones I struggle with greatly with mine. There were some indicators of selfishness before the "crisis" but they were nothing in compared to the behavior now. I have been told by several counselors that stress, crisis, divorce, etc. magnify the behaviors and they can calm down again. I hope this is true for Fight if she wants to stick it out.

OwnIt #2742938 05/11/17 11:02 AM
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The counselors are correct. When the stressors are removed, they should calm down...but it takes time for this to happen, i.e., people need to remember that the crisis didn't happen over night, it has taken years for it to come to the point of bubbling up to the surface and spewing. It will take a while before a person in crisis finally settles down. Some settle down quickly and others...well, it takes them a long time. Unfortunately, it's not something that we can predict.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2743338 05/15/17 09:29 AM
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Hi OwnIt and Job - thank you both so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences with this.

Job - I see the point in not trying to diagnosis the MLCer. Because we are not psychs, we are emotionally involved, and we lack the depth of experience, how do we know what we are seeing/reporting is really NPD. I get it. At least logically.

It is still very tempting! Lol! Partially because from my understanding of NPD it is very difficult to treat. And that gives me very little reason to hope for change. This is why I am so concerned about whether he really is on the unhealthy end of the narcissist spectrum.

There are times when I think I can't take any more. And others when I can manage just one more day.

When it comes right down to it, I often ponder the question I have seen asked around here and that is along the lines of what would I be doing if H were dead. I wouldn't be doing anything differently, right now at least. If H were dead, I would give myself some time to mourn and heal and then I would probably start dating.

Mother's Day went barely acknowledged. He left me a card in S's room from S. But other than that, he didn't utter a word about it. Not surprising.

More PA behavior. At least I think it's PA. At dinner yesterday evening, S was chewing on a piece of food that was too large for his mouth. S started gagging. I was closest to S and I was watching him closely to see if he started choking. H snottily said aren't you going to do anything, hit him on the back. (I wanted to hit H. Lol!) I calmly turned to H and told him that hitting someone if they are choking/gagging can make the situation worse. If S was really choking, then I would act. He responded, "oh."

I get really tired of him trying to paint me as a bad mom. He really believes I am going to just sit by and let my S choke to death? I honestly don't get it. It doesn't occur to him that the old wives tales that he buys into aren't real solutions. He just cannot stop for one second to think that maybe there is a really good reason why I do what I do. He immediately goes to guns and assumes the worse. I am getting very frustrated at this behavior. I am doing my best to respond calmly. I suppose it is all I can do. To point out what he is doing would just fall on deaf ears.

I feel like no matter what I say or how it's said, it won't make the tiniest of difference. In fact, I feel like anything I say, even if done nicely, will only get twisted around and used as ammunition against me. I really don't like this feeling.

I would love to be able to talk to him about this. But I don't feel that right now, it would do anything productive.

So I continue to do what I do, and that is stay calm, and do nothing.

FightOn #2743515 05/16/17 01:33 PM
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Hi Fighton! I'm sorry your H didn't do anything much for Mother's Day. Maybe you can take the high road for Father's and show him you aren't PA like him!

I think you really have so much patience when he is clearly pushing your buttons. I'm not sure I could act calmly and with grace like you have been doing. Hopefully soon he will realise that he can't get a reaction out of you anymore and will cease!

(((Fighton)))


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
Coly23 #2743517 05/16/17 01:55 PM
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Fight, I don't know how you deal with him in the household and with a little one. You amaze me!

OwnIt #2743553 05/16/17 07:22 PM
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My h also has shown tremendous PA behaviors throughout his MLC. Hard as it is, I found not reacting (verbally or by body language) diminished the behaviors drastically. As Job says, this is learned behavior and I think they try to recreate a dynamic that, though dysfunctional, feels good because it is familiar to them from earlier days. Sadly, I do think it was a sort of "method" by which they learned to communicate in childhood.

When the PA is in your face, like when he makes snide comments, I would calmly but directly look him in the eye and ask: "what do you mean by that?" Then I would not say a word; just listen. You may be surprised by his reaction. When confronted many of them back peddle and stammer for words.

In general, I have found that I have had to teach my h that PA behaviors do not get him the reaction he wants. If you can get him to answer "what he means by his comments," then validate and say "thanks for explaining" even if you don't agree with what he says.

Like a child: try to ignore the bad, elicit the good and then praise.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2743612 05/17/17 09:34 AM
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Thank you Ladies for your feedback.

HaWho - I love your advice. I am going to give that a try. Ignoring the comments hasn't deterred him. Perhaps he isn't even aware of the PA nature of the comments; I have read people who use this coping mechanism lack self awareness. By asking him what he means, this may give him pause. AND it's something different since what I am doing doesn't seem to be working for me. Doing nothing is starting to cause me to feel like a door mat.

My SIL, H's youngest sister, and her H are divorcing. Her H has moved into an apartment with his OW, but continues to deny the ongoing relationship to SIL and all their family and friends. SIL's H has turned into a man I barely recognize. Like my H, he looks the same appearance-wise, but the actual man we all knew, is gone. SIL texted me today that they put their house on the market. She is devastated.

SIL H's has repeated the same script. Not happy for years, never should have gotten married, etc. etc. It's all pure script.

It's all just so sad that people can blow up their lives like this. My heart aches for all the pain and suffering she is enduring. If anyone knows, all of us here do.

I think I need to work on detaching some more.

FightOn #2743646 05/17/17 01:25 PM
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Hey FightOn,

Had to SMH and giggle a little at your H's PA stuff. It'll be funny to see if he tries new things.

You're right, don't waste your time trying to re-write the movie that's playing in their head. They have a skill to try and turn things around no matter what you say. They are very busy working their new story of being the victim that's turning their life around for the first time ever. You, meanwhile, suddenly look like Darth Vader, Nurse Ratched and Hannibal Lecter all rolled into one.

I've learned to get on with my day and ignore my W and pretty much function without her. She tries new PA ways to project anger or annoyance with me, such as...

1. If she clean dishes and recognizes a pan or bowl I used to prepare a meal, she won't clean it. She will clean all dishes except those. When she puts clean dishes away, she will put away all dishes except that pan or bowl that I used. She strategically places in the middle of the kitchen counter for me to put away.

2. W just built a cubby near the front door to keep shoes - except mine, of course! If I put any shoes in the cubby, she throws them across the bedroom towards the foot of my closet door.

3. If I go out for the evening, she always makes a point to order take out food. I don't get it. They're teenagers, after all. I wonder if she's saying "Look how much fun I had while you were out with this yummy food!"

Staying calm and doing nothing - while really difficult - is the best thing to do. It's hard for me, too. I hear you there!

My W I barely recognize as well. They are all on an island by themselves.

Keep expecting your H to "go to guns and expect the worst". They want to escalate, because they want you to be mad, and they want you to be as miserable as them.

I've only been living with an MLCer for about 1½ years. I think we all need to keep working on detaching. It's an evolution, it's a constant work in progress. I learn new detachment moves, then I backslide one day. I think I get the hang of it, then something new happens with my W.


M: 49, W: 45
T: 22 M: 15
S14, S11, S9
BD: Jan '16
W files: Oct '16
D final: June '18
Brubeck #2743747 05/18/17 10:18 AM
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Hi there Brubeck! Thanks for stopping by.

Your W's PA behavior also got a chuckle out of me. If you don't laugh at it all, what's left to do? Cry? Beat the wall?

S had picture day today at daycare. The flyers were posted all around the facility for about three weeks. While H hasn't been there at the drop off for the past week, he has been there for the drop offs while the flyers were up.

This morning as I was getting S dressed, I mentioned it. H looked astonished. "I didn't know. I haven't been going to drop off for a week because you aren't ready by 7:15. I've been meaning to ask you what I can to do help." I politely responded that the flyers have been up for weeks.

Part of me does want to give him a list of things he can to help in the morning, but another part of me thinks, no, you need to figure that out. You don't want to be married anymore, so why should I behave like a wife. He needs to wake up and pay attention to the things that need to get done in the morning and just do them. Maybe I am being too harsh and I should hold his hand a little. I dunno.

Part of me thinks I should have reminded him about the photos this morning. But another part of me thinks, he needs to wake up and pay attention. It's no longer my job to remind him of these things.

I have suspected all along he did not pay attention to the flyers and did not realize this morning was picture day. I could have brought it up earlier in the week.

I still carry resentment for the lack of attention he paid to these types of things before BD and my having to constantly remind him. So I do wrangle with the notion that I didn't bring it up both out of resentment, but also because I don't feel it's my responsibility to be his secretary anymore. Perhaps it is one of those instances where it is a little bit of both?

Some of this is not knowing my boundaries. For instance, there are some "wifely" things I continue to do, like cook dinner most nights and plan everything for S. But there are other things I no longer do, like his laundry, remind him of upcoming events or bills. So I imagine, from his perspective, things are a bit confusing. I don't know how to lay down the law in a way that he will understand and not push him away even more. And I am not sure that is even possible.

This distress comes from guilt at not reminding him this morning because that is what I have always done coupled with a desire do something different, because I feel like things are stagnate. Maybe things need to be stagnate for a little while longer while he sorts himself out? Maybe this is what happens in MLC land? Sometimes I wonder if I am being impatient and think that I can actually do something to shake things up because I know I can't.

I do think I need to fade into the background so he can take his focus off of me and focus on himself. But things like this morning don't do that. If I would have reminded him, then it would be status quo, but I think I would have just been more resentful for taking on a wifely responsibility. Maybe status quo for now really is the best and I should just suck it up a little more.

FightOn #2745118 05/30/17 08:50 AM
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Hello Everyone!

There has been some strange movement in MLC land and I wanted to get the community's thoughts. I have read that sometimes the MLCer will move toward the LBS and then suddenly retract.

Why do they do this?

Over the long holiday weekend, H appeared to move, ever so incrementally, toward me. Very small things. For instance, I ran out of coffee cream on Saturday morning. H offered to run to the local coffee joint to pick some up for me. I declined his offer.

H went to the grocery store on Saturday and picked up some steaks to grill yesterday. He even made my favorite rub and marinade.

Then almost suddenly, yesterday afternoon, while he was grilling he was on his phone a lot and then seemed to distance himself from me and S. Almost like a light switch. I didn't mention it nor did I react to it. I am doing my best to ignore it and detach.

I am just noticing the tiny steps toward and now back. I don't understand this.

FightOn #2745129 05/30/17 10:28 AM
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He is attracted to you and still has feelings for you and then realizes that he shouldn't be warming up to you, so he backs off. He needs to justify why he left or feels the way he does, so he can't have those warm and fuzzy feelings for you and that's why he distances himself once again. Also, it could be part of the distance/pursuer game too. They come close, we start to think that they are waking up and begin to have hope, etc. The best thing to do is stay the course and allow him to flit around and see if he continues to come close.

They remind me of a moth who is attracted to a candle. They come close and slit around the candle and when the flame is put out, they flit away once again.

Stay the course and continue as you have been.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2745192 05/30/17 07:27 PM
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Fight, mine does this stuff. It comes in cycles. He spirals in toward the kids, the house, and even me, and then it feels icky and he runs off again. In his case the cycles seem to be getting closer together. It has been going on since the first of the year. I'm curious how he will behave after my S's upcoming birthday on Father's Day. My D will leave shortly thereafter for a month. I predict he'll disappear for quite a bit after. We'll see. Doesn't really change anything I am doing.

FightOn #2745195 05/30/17 08:11 PM
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Fighton,

So many of us experience this. It is exhausting at time so as others have said, just try to be steady and at peace whether he us distancing or pursuing. My w basically ignored me all weekend and then wanted to be all cuddly yesterday.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
OwnIt #2745215 05/31/17 05:54 AM
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Don't put too much hope into those tiny "warm ups", Job described it so well, I will add also, since you have been distancing/detaching yourself so well lately this could be just a tentative to be nice just to see how you can react to some positive attention from his part, another weird way to his influence/power on you, and since it didn't work, it left him "puzzled". Your actual way to relate to him is so different from what it used to be, you are not playing into his PA game anymore and you are not trying to "seduce" him either. He must me wondering what's going on with you. You became "indifferent" (detach) to him, you are not flattering his ego or neither pursuing him.

Also keep in mind, an affair is based on fantasy (la la land) so the the longer it's going on, the least it's possible to sustain it without having to face some reality at one point, usually the OW plays it very "cool, loving, not demanding at the beginning" then she starts to make demands.

Demands mean you HAVE to make a CHOICE based on reality, until now the choices made were "justified" in a very twisted manner based on the behavior/reactions of the LBS but when you are not "reacting" anymore, choice is left to them only without anybody to blame, it's much more difficult... So the least "demanding or reactive you are" AKA being detached, it starts to show off as a positive side in regard of the nagging OW. You become the "easy going" and she is now the "annoying".

I know it's kind of a long twisted explanation, but MLC is a twisted journey.


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2745241 05/31/17 09:42 AM
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Thank you everyone for your insight.

Gordie, you are so right. It is exhausting. I have to constantly remind myself that he is in MLC and this is just a hit and run. As Skyhigh said, I can't get my hopes up. It is so easy to do. It's hard not to attach something more meaningful to the change in behavior. But that is me projecting. And I do know better.

I feel like a fool because I let him draw me in a little this morning and it didn't end well for me. I brought up an issue about S that I (and his caregiver at daycare) have noticed recently regarding an undesirable behavior. S has been starting to tattle on other children when he seems them breaking minor rules (running in areas they should be walking, taking toys from each other, using toys inappropriately). When I spoke with his caregiver she said she has noticed it and has tried not to make a big deal out of it, but wants to curtail the behavior. So do I.

This morning I mentioned it to H. I did so in a joking manner referring to S as a "snitch." I described the behavior and mentioned that the caregiver at school also noticed the behavior. I also said I would like to notice when he does it and discourage it as I don't see this as a positive behavior. H became combative. He wasn't raising his voice, but was very argumentative. He said things like "well, what does tattle tale even mean," "when does he do this," "why is this an issue," "how do we know if this isn't just normal 2 year old behavior." He also said, why are you (meaning me) making a big deal out of it. Ugh.

I am so frustrated with H and did start to feel defensive. I felt criticized and attacked. I did my best to keep a lid on my frustration and tried to let him know that I am not making a federal case out of this issue, but merely want to keep an eye on it to keep it from getting worse. However, I don't think I did as good of a job as I could have b/c I felt defensive. I also allowed him to turn the focus of the conversation onto me, rather than S and how we should handle this.

I am a little perplexed as to why he turned this around onto me. I don't understand that behavior and the reasoning for it.

I am disappointed in myself for not recognizing what he was doing as it was happening. I allowed myself to become defensive and fell into his "trap."

[As an aside, what I really wanted to tell him was I am sorry you don't spend enough time with S to see how he behaves with other children. It's unfortunate that you don't have any interest in really getting to know S and you feel the need to turn things around on other people.]

Now that I just wrote that I am wondering if he turned it around on me because he felt defensive because he hasn't noticed this behavior?

I am also frustrated over this because all it does it make me not want to talk to H about anything. What is the point? He seems to just want to be combative and a contrarian. Since he is in this state, it all just seems pointless as it goes absolutely nowhere. He lacks insight and hasn't changed one bit. I am saying in my head "why bother?"

Thoughts? Suggestions?

FightOn #2745246 05/31/17 10:19 AM
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Fight, my H cannot handle it when I say anything about the children not doing well, having a problem, etc. because I believe he thinks I am accusing him and his leaving of being the source of these issues. I only tell him things that are huge and that I think could come out in a custody battle. For what you are talking about, I would not mention that stuff to him. He felt attacked in some way and since he isn't when S when this stuff happens he really doesn't need to be there to reinforce the behavior. If you do have to tell him something "big" do so in a factual and straight-forward manner. Also, had you broached this as the caregiver is concerned about this behavior and wants us to do something about it, you are not making yourself the accuser and the source of the fingerpointing to him. Remember, in this state they cannot handle criticism, blame, or accountability of any kind.

OwnIt #2745344 06/01/17 08:52 AM
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Hi OwnIt.

I wouldn't be surprised if my H had the same thoughts your H did re the belief that a comment about the children not doing well equates to an accusation. I also think he sees it, whether consciously or unconsciously, as an opportunity to provoke me. It was odd as he kept asking "what does that mean . . . what do you mean by 'tattling' . . . how is this a problem." He also turned it around on me and kept saying, "well, I would have asked this that and the other thing . . ."

It would be nice to be able to have a normal conversation. It would be nice to be able to parent with someone who sees the value is talking about issues in a reasonable manner without criticizing and demeaning the other parent.

What he doesn't see, know, understand, or get is that all this does is cause me to lock up. I don't want to talk to him about anything anymore. But that is not the stance I want to take.

I think this is all about my expectations. I expected to have a normal civil discussion. Now. after some reflection, I realize this is a ridiculous expectation!!!! Perhaps the better approach from here on out is to state what the issue is without any expectation of a discussion or resolution with him and then just walk away.

What is becoming clearer and clearer by the day is H's inability or lack of motivation to do any work. I keep looking at him and seeing a "normal" person. But he's not. He doesn't have a scarlet A on his shirt, he doesn't have a brand across his forehead proclaiming his scrambled eggs, Swiss cheese MLC brain so I have moments where I think he's normal.

I am really getting tired of this nonsense. I am tired of putting in all this effort and work toward trying to relate to him better. It's good practice, and while I certainly need it, it is becoming an exercise in futility and the harm to my emotional health is exceeding any potential gains. It is hard for me to believe that one person in a relationship can really make a difference because I don't think I am seeing any.

Aside from him not serving me with the Petition for Divorce, yet, there have no long term or consistent gains; perhaps that is a gain and I should look at it that way. It just doesn't feel like one. The bottom line is I think I need to see some progress in order to have any motivation to continue with him. At some point I have to excise the gangrenous relationships that weigh me down.

And I need to seriously think about this. Part of me wants to go ahead and file an Answer to the Petition without being served and get this party started and give him what he thinks he wants. Another part of me, perhaps the childish side, says, no, if he wants it, he will have to put in the work. The more I think about this the more I realize that if I take option B, I will have to come up with a better plan to deal with him in order to maintain my sanity. The only plan I can think of is further detachment. An "I'm done, whatever" attitude.

FightOn #2747450 06/19/17 07:10 AM
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Hi All!

Still not much to report. Same old, same old.

Yesterday, we returned from H's nephew's wedding. The ceremony was nice (but long) and the reception was fun. Well, as much fun as it could be with a toddler.

The trip was uneventful save for several remarks about how old H is getting. More remarks about how S will have to push him around in a wheelchair. The remarks had seemingly died down for a while, but they have resumed lately.

H was nice to me during the trip, but not talkative. In typical fashion, he appeared like father of the year in front of his family. Volunteering to change dirty diapers, feeding S, swimming with him in the hotel pool. It was actually a nice little break for me, but nauseating to see how over the top he was being. This past four days H spent more time with S than he has in an entire month. How sad for S.

On the 9th we had an argument over the phone. He called me to announce he was leaving for the other coast for two weeks in August for some training. At least that is what he is telling me. No way to know the truth with him anymore. I couldn't resist baiting him a little bit by asking whether he was "telling me" or "asking me" if the dates would work for me. He stammered and didn't know what to say. Then, in typical fashion, turned it around on me and claims that I just go off and do whatever and don't tell him in advance.

He is such a master at turning things around. I fell down the rabbit hole a little bit and said I was just following his lead.

I need to detach even more. I roll along and mostly ignore most of his antics, but then the little things do start to add up and it ends up in a confrontation of some kind that ends up going nowhere.

All along the way, I will journal my complaints and sometimes air them to my close friends. They still find a way to build and get to me. My therapist has tried to encourage me to talk to H. Lol! He tells me I should be the person I want to be with H.

I'm not certain my therapist understands. Maybe I don't understand? It seems to me that trying to have a logical discussion with an MLC'er in full blown limerence is nearly impossible. To expect a resolution of the issue is an exercise in futility. It is such a recurring theme with H, I cannot help but wonder if it is me?

FightOn #2747460 06/19/17 08:22 AM
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Fight,

Sadly most therapists don't believe in MLC. I think you know where the discussion is likely to lead were you to have it. All you can do at this point is wait it out, work on yourself, and try to keep things calm for your S. Limerence does come to an end and you can see what you have at that point.

Journaling is helpful. Mine has been in a lot more contact while with OW2 and has been much nicer. Not sure why.

OwnIt #2748041 06/22/17 03:55 PM
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So I have been served.

What is my next DB move?

FightOn #2748054 06/22/17 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
So I have been served.

What is my next DB move?


DB says to protect yourself so the first thing to do, is see a L.

Not to speed up the divorce or make things ugly, but to see if you can drag your feet or what your options are

and protect yourself.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2748063 06/22/17 11:50 PM
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Interview a few lawyers to find the right one to you, ask around you for references.
Don't give your WH any potential information about your next moves also he might try to be "nice" (let's be friends...), just to appeal to your emotions to get something that he knows is not in your best interest. Don't be fooled! When they file it means they are ready and organize already and thought about all their moves.

Document everything, stay polite but distant!
Separate your phone account if it's to your advantage so he doesn't know who you are calling.
Change your passwords put a password on your computer/iPad... check if he put any software in it.
Call the bank and make the necessary changes if you gave him any power of attorney or administrative rights.
Take pictures of everything you have, he may or not remove items from the home when he will move with or without your approval.

Ask for a temporary alimony and a child custody orders if you need them. Show him that you are ready to stand up for your rights and not going to accept whatever bones he will give you to chew on it. He might think he still can manipulate you by appealing to your feelings (be ready for some surprising affectionate moves...).

Copy any legal documents (retirements, accounts, investment funds...) you can have, follow the money trails, sadly from my experience (a few friends), before filing the H hid money somewhere.
Remember also a marriage is a financial partnership so if he spends money on the OW, you are entitled to be reimbursed 50% of it (that's what my lawyer told me...).

Doing all of that doesn't mean you want a divorce it means only that you are protecting yourself. Knowledge is power. The more knowledge you have the better you will be have to navigate the months ahead of you.

Limerence and its fantasy land don't do very well with obstacles, so slowing down the process in a very clever manner can be an advantage for you.

Tell him that you are not going to share his version why you are separating with others, since he filed you are now free of expressing your side. MLCer don't like to be seen as the bad guy, they have a high opinion of themselves.

You might want to expose him and his affair partner if he has one... but only if you have proof, don't do a full exposure but a targeted one, just to show him that he is not fooling you anymore, that you are way smarter than he thinks. I did that... they hated it. It disrupted their la la land, being seen as a home wrecker or a cheating husband is never good for your own image in regard of others. It's up to you, each situation is different but I noticed that exposure is a way to shake the situation, it brings the secret relationship to light and it removes some of its "excitement", by forcing them to deal with actual facts and making decisions.

Something not to do, begging, crying, trying to negotiate.
Stay detached, keep your eyes open, trust your guts and avoid any confrontation or to send him anything he can use against you to try to picture you as unstable.


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
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Except for exposing to 3rd parties, which I think can backfire and make you look like the scorned wife, (& makes recon harder b/c pushing the affair into the "public" arena often pushes the APs into each other's arms more, in an "us against them" view)

I agree with everything skyhigh wrote. Skyhigh my apologies if I misunderstood the exposure comment.

Yes to all else, and get copies of finances and you CAN get half of any money out of a joint account and if I had not been hospitalized when my h planned his exit, I absolutely would have.

It's been a HUGE hassle $$$ having to get subpoenas to banks we both banked at but which h was able to block me from when I wasn't looking. You will need MONEY/CASH.

My h is an MD and I'm borrowing money to get through this crap which is mortifying after 35 years and 3 kids.

I'm not saying to escalate, I'm saying to protect yourself. He has now filed for D

so the cards will fall where they fall. Don't let them fall on you.

He can wake up later to the wreckage and try to repair it.

You don't want to be in the wreckage


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
25yearsmlc #2748091 06/23/17 01:48 AM
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by exposure I meant a targeted one, not a nuclear one. I always picked my targets in a very careful manners. I first exposed it to him and her, to let them know I knew and I had proofs, because somehow I had the feeling he was making her believed that I knew nothing and their secret was well preserved, it disrupted that belief, also it made him and her aware that if he could lie to me he could lie to her too... my second step was to exposed her to a very few people whom she valued their opinions dearly... the same for him. I was a way to bring reality into their fantasy, it worked extremely well. Silence is never our friend, that's our enemy. Why do we need to be the victim of their manipulation? Standing with dignity (no fool or nasty words or behavior) is just showing that we have self respect for ourselves. Silence breeds more lies and resentment, it destroys us. Also, when you have kids somehow we need to show them that we don't accept bullying and being lied, we are role models.


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh #2748112 06/23/17 03:44 AM
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Thank you Skyhigh and 25.

From a financial and legal standpoint, I'm covered and have already been doing what I need to do to protect myself.

But I do have a couple of questions about your responses.

About the exposure - they have already been exposed. It has been over a year since I found out and the OW has been with a new guy for that same amount of time. The OW continues to maintain a "friendly" relationship with my H. They text/email and talk to each on the phone all day while at work. H sends writes her love letters, gives her small gifts (mostly food items). Should I let OW's b.f. know?

Also, about my interactions with H from this point out. Polite but distant. I totally get. Does that mean I tell him about my future plans, even if they include S? Or do I continue to just do what I want, when I want? (Right now, I make plans, but don't tell him until last minute.)

He sometimes texts me questions about S and I respond w/in a reasonable amount of time (2 hours or less). Should I ignore those now? Should I wait even longer to text back?

He pays for groceries and I cook the food. Should I do anything differently here? This arrangement is fine with me, so my gut says leave it alone if I am okay with it.

I feel like now since he has filed, I need to do something very different than what I have.

FightOn #2748117 06/23/17 04:07 AM
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Hmmmmm..... why do you think anything should be different now that filed? Do your goals remain the same? Why would you change turnover time on text messages regarding your S just because he filed?

Why were you telling him about future plans before he filed? Why is that changing now? What kind of plans are you talking about? The only thing I would change is parenting time. You have yours, he has his, and you do what you choose with your time.

Ask yourself these questions.

And the way I have been living for these many years divorced. When it comes to stuff regarding our D, I don't mess around, and neither does he. If there is a text regarding our kid and only our kid, we address it ASAP.

Ginger1 #2748121 06/23/17 04:48 AM
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You've been served, the next step is to interview lawyers and some do have free consultations. Do not allow the lawyer to talk you into things that you don't necessarily need. Google your state and see what your rights are as well. Knowledge is power.

Now about exposing affairs, etc., you need to have proof and I suggest holding on to that proof if you need to start negotiating something that you really need. Your h isn't going to want the affair exposed and especially his little tart exposed. So, keep the info close and do not share until you need to negotiate something.

Just remember, if your h were in your shoes, he would fight for what is his and not second guess himself on his actions. This is now a financial deal that has gone sour and you need to protect yourself and your children and ask for what is fair and right in order to live. Leave your heart at the door and use your mind for this negotiation.

New Thread:

Flotsam, part II

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