Flotsam

[FightOn]

My thoughts have been floating around the notion of how much I have learned about myself, psychology, and how my past has impacted my current life. It feels like a Grand Canyon full of knowledge has been poured into my brain.

These thoughts lead me to question whether H is willing or capable of doing the same. As I peruse these threads I see LBS after LBS moving on and away from their MLC/WASs. The MLCers and WAS are left in the proverbial dust. Statistics are not on the side of marriage recovery. Even marriages that seem to have recovered have hit obstacles again. I feel sad about that.

But I think that is something I am starting to more easily accept. It is really hard for a person to look at themselves and own their mess. It's even harder to admit these failings to someone else. When I think about having to humble myself before my H in order to reconcile, I cringe just thinking about it. There is so much resentment and distrust. And really a lot of disbelief that he could do the same. I am reluctant to bare my soul to someone who is capable of inflicting this kind of harm on me. I suppose if I did it, I wouldn't do it all at once. It would be like peeling back the layers of an onion. Maybe I could do that. I have very little faith he could.

[OwnIt]

Fight I know exactly how you feel. I am optimistic about myself and my happiness, but not at all in his ability to be someone I would want to be with.

[25yearsmlc]

this hits home.

I've heard things my kids have told h that are not "supportive" of his new found happiness.

H says he is going to a T, which would be the first time he's ever gone as an Individual (actually for all I know, he's going with OW...)

Anyhow, here are a few random thoughts on "what if?"

at least in my situation,

h would have to have a seismic change within, to see that he has inflicted tremendous damage and pain on the 4 people who loved him the most.

He'd have to see it AND regret it deeply AND communicate that in a way other than a "sincere but really short all is well NOW, right?" way

and humbling himself is not a skill he has. (Humbling himself privately - not to grovel for ME or the kids - but in facing the damage he has caused IS humbling to a normal person)


Then add in the work they'd have to do to earn your desire to work on things

AND to ever trust them again AND to ever really give yourself fully as you once did.

And the odds get smaller...

I wish I had pieced better with h after we recon.
His mom got cancer and we shelved it and never really went back to h's underlying issues

so here we are

[25yearsmlc]

PS

I do think I'll be fine in the relatively near future. Knowing that helps me a lot, now.

here is something another DBer wrote to me that was also helpful (and she knew my h)


Please, 25, - everything he says is just bs at this point.

25 - IDK if your h will ever be able to be truly at peace with what he has done to you and the kids...

Seriously.

Not saying this to console you, or make you feel superior; but I think he will be haunted by his actions - one way or another - for the rest of his life.

If he is a decent human being, regret, shame and guilt will
sooner or later get the best of him.

You simply cannot inflict such pain and damage to those who Love you the most, and emerge unscathed.

And if he is truly devoid of kindness and empathy, then you are better off without him, despite so much pain and destruction.

You WILL rise above all of this and THRIVE.
You just need to have faith (even when sometimes you cannot fathom things getting better) and really fake it till you make it.

You and your kids deserve better after so many years of struggling as a family.


this^^ I believe in my heart.

Like most of us, there is a deeply rooted fear, even if we know it's not true, that NOW the h will "really be happy b/c the problem was ME all along"...

and that is what the WAS (whatever label applies, narcissist, MLCer or just a selfish critical controlling spouse, does to us...BLAME, play the victim and project a ton of crap we sometimes begin to accept at a subconscious level.

I have to examine my stuff, such as my ability to ignore red flags and

why I only saw what validated my choice to stay, (among many other things I need to work on).

When I ponder what his regret might look like (I still have those fantasies, I admit. I just don't know if it's my ego or an actual desire OR that we 've been married so long I cannot really grasp what life will be like without h)

but I envision more realistically now.

So h could apologize on his death bed with a feeble "I guess i could have handled things better"

OR he could just shake his fist, still mad at me for "trying to take away all HIS money"....

equally possible.

h might really never look at his choices and never dig deep to settle some issues that I know he has had, even before this debacle. Never see the pain he caused or never see the connection between his behavior and his lack of good r's with our kids...

Seeing them twice a year (someday) might be enough for him to feel good bout himself as a dad

or blame me for "turning them against" him...who knows?

I think all we can do now is our end of things to "up our joy score" in the equation of life.

No matter what they tell us, or act like OR even if they really are "happier",

that may not have anything to do with us

and so its about us getting ourselves to a good place?

I mean, isn't that all we can really do, now?

The man I married and loved deeply for decades, is for all intents and purposes,

dead to me.

When I think of it that way (not gleefully, just that he's NOT a factor in with my choices)

I do feel a lot lighter and freer.

[25yearsmlc]

Sorry for the hijack

but hope it relates enough for you to find some value.

[FightOn]

25 - no need to apologize. I didn't think for even one second your comments were hijacking. They are highly relevant. I have been following your sitch and have also read many of your comments on other threads. I find what you have to say so insightful and helpful and I don't comment because I think to myself, what can I add? Lol!

The seismic shift you wrote about is exactly how I feel as well. H is not someone I would date I wouldn't even be interested in him as a "hook up." Ick.

There is a vast array of things he would need to work out in his head. So much unpacking. I know how hard it has been for me on my end, and I am not someone who doesn't or can't let myself feel. It is hard to imagine someone learning to finally feel and identify their emotions and evolve into someone who has insight into their behaviors, particularly when they have been this way for 48 years. Almost half a century.

The person in that situation would have to be highly motivated. Motivated to do the work, to try, to fail, and then in the face of failure and frustration,keep trying and working. What could possibly motivate a person under those circumstances to keep at it?

Falling flat on their face. Losing everything?


Like most of us, there is a deeply rooted fear, even if
we know it's not true, that NOW the h will "really be
happy b/c the problem was ME all along"...


This ^^^^ is exactly the root of some of my struggles. I can't shake those thoughts. They pull me in and I have to use every ounce of strength I have to pull myself out. There have been so many moments where I have been overcome with sadness at the thought that H will truly be happier without me. And worse, happier with OW.

I want to believe so badly that it won't happen. I also want so badly to believe the part about him coming out of this unscathed. But there is a part of me that thinks otherwise.

All this returns me back to the notion that none of that is in my control. Not my circus, not my monkeys. So the road leads back to me.

[25yearsmlc]

I love the term "Unpacking".

When I think of my actual flaws and wrongs, things I want to face and own, it's incredibly humbling. Brings me to my knees when I think of the mistakes I made as a mother (a lot of it marital related, but not all).

And it's time consuming and deeply painful...but I have started on my path. I stumble on the path, with anger and regret. So I will try to soothe and forgive myself along the way (or it'll be too much.)

Imagine just for 3 minutes what YOU would feel like, if you were in your h's shoes, (and with the bravery you have shown inwardly).

Imagine how it would feel to own the pain you inflicted on others, the broken agreements and collateral damage,

AND imagine then, that you were to face the work ahead just to be on "decent terms" with those hurting people, suspecting & fearing that down deep, you'll never be very close.

Imagine how much work it would take to repair the r's, and to make them actually good again.

So, what are the options?

Would you run, surround yourself with others who don't know the truth or history of damage, and or anesthetize yourself in some way,

and or just collapse in a heap?

[25yearsmlc]

wow

I just noticed that among the "options" I listed, was not "do the gut wrenching brave and HONEST WORK and put in the TIME to repair your r's..."

b/c I guess I just know it's not really an option for my h.

yikes...that's some brutal reality.

I'm feeling the "missing the h I had" pieces of life, to be shorter and fewer.

Flotsam, when I'm as open to this reality as I can be, knowing what I know now,

no, I would not do more than have an interesting dinner with h. (Assuming he was in a good mood, which got rarer).

He was NOT a good h for me for the past X years, (who knows exactly?)

H was an absentee, controlling, demanding father. The girls felt unloved. That's just so sad but they say it's true.

Hard to know when this^^ happened, what years were real, and or how long I was blind.

UGH

I'm redirecting my "camera" now and trying to make this a transformative experience that is not laden throughout with pain and guilt and self doubt

and instead, is one of hope and optimism and faith. I swear I'll get there.

[FightOn]

Imagine just for 3 minutes what YOU would feel like, if you were in your h's shoes, (and with the bravery you have shown inwardly).

Imagine how it would feel to own the pain you inflicted on others, the broken agreements and collateral damage,

AND imagine then, that you were to face the work ahead just to be on "decent terms" with those hurting people, suspecting & fearing that down deep, you'll never be very close.

Imagine how much work it would take to repair the r's, and to make them actually good again.

So, what are the options?

Would you run, surround yourself with others who don't know the truth or history of damage, and or anesthetize yourself in some way,

and or just collapse in a heap?



It's hard for me to imagine what I would do, but it is easy to see how the choice to run would be natural.

Thanks for putting this in perspective 25. You are such a gift. Your words have helped carry me through some very dark days. And you probably never even knew.

(((((25)))))

H's nephew is getting married next month several states away. It is about a three hour flight. I am much closer to this nephew than H. The nephew asked if I would be attending and I told him no.

H's sister, nephew's mom, texted him over the weekend and asked H. H then texted me and asked me what I thought about attending. I told him I would like to go (which is true, but the thought of a long plane ride with a toddler, renting a car, etc., etc., is more than I can handle on my own.) He said he would like to go as well. So, we're going. It's so strange. He has filed for divorce, hasn't served me, but wants to go to his nephew's wedding. Probably because I will act as cover for him. And for the same reasons I wouldn't want to take S by himself, he wouldn't want to take S by himself. I am willing myself not to read anything into it.

We attended a train show with S over the weekend. There was a company putting on a display that is in my H's exact same line of work. They were displaying their "toys." There were children climbing on the equipment, hanging out with the employees, etc. S had zero interest. H was clearly hurt and even commented that S had zero interest in looking at the equipment. He took it personally and was genuinely hurt. My goodness, S isn't even two years old. He has the attention span of a gnat.

I don't know if this is MLC related or if H is really this sensitive. It's hard for me to imagine what he would have been like in this scenario pre-MLC.

I didn't say anything to H or S about H's comments. I don't think S even heard them. But I did find them bothersome.

After that incident he went on and on about how he has asked other parents about little boys' fascination with trash trucks and S isn't a weirdo because other little boys also like trash trucks. What?!? He thought S was weird because he was fascinated with trash trucks? Really? Again, he isn't even two.

I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. What does one even say to a comment like that? "Thanks for not thinking our S is a weirdo." "Thanks for doing some research and taking a consensus."

Like the other comment, I don't know if this is MLC or just who H is at his core. Regardless, I don't like it and I am bothered by it.

[25yearsmlc]

Imagine just for 3 minutes what YOU would feel like, if you were in your h's shoes, (and with the bravery you have shown inwardly).

Imagine how it would feel to own the pain you inflicted on others, the broken agreements and collateral damage,

AND imagine then, that you were to face the work ahead just to be on "decent terms" with those hurting people, suspecting & fearing that down deep, you'll never be very close.

Imagine how much work it would take to repair the r's, and to make them actually good again.

So, what are the options?

Would you run, surround yourself with others who don't know the truth or history of damage, and or anesthetize yourself in some way,

and or just collapse in a heap?



It's hard for me to imagine what I would do, but it is easy to see how the choice to run would be natural.

Thanks for putting this in perspective 25. You are such a gift. Your words have helped carry me through some very dark days. And you probably never even knew.

(((((25)))))

right back at you.



H's nephew is getting married next month several states away. It is about a three hour flight. I am much closer to this nephew than H. The nephew asked if I would be attending and I told him no.


if you have known them decades AND he asked you, why wouldn't you go? My ex sil (my brother divorced her) is still a big part of my life.

OH SIDE NOTE about inlaws...
maybe this is just me and my family

but when my oldest brother did HIS MLC on his lovely first w,

all 3 of my sisters and I said he was being a fool.

Here is an actual conversation I had with him:

Me: I think you are blowing a good thing.

Oldest Brother: are you going to disown me as your brother?

me: No, I won't 'disown' you . But I think you're making the biggest mistake of your life.

Oldest Brother: thank you.

see what HE heard? That I would not disown him, so his choice OR the consequences of it were fine...


I've done more with my former SIL in terms of vacations and real conversations in the past decade, than with my brother. Literally.

No, my brother is not all happy. He is still melancholic. He remarried a lovely woman years after the Div (a woman his own age, btw). They've managed to have a child. She is my brother's second child, and he was a lazy dad in his first M. So he got a do-over.

And he's still a kind but inattentive lazy dad (he has no temper and he is not critical)

He's still pathologically conflict avoidant and self absorbed. Also a bit gloomy now.

He still the lacks emotional energy to be a dad with a 5 y/o And he's 63...He'll be 75 at her high school graduation. His older d24 is getting married this fall and she TOLD me she sees her dad "more like an uncle".

Ouch


Point is, you never know what the MLC/WAS family really truly feels...just b/c they don't disown their family member does NOT mean they approve and does not mean they don't care about you.

H's sister, nephew's mom, texted him over the weekend and asked H. H then texted me and asked me what I thought about attending. I told him I would like to go (which is true, but the thought of a long plane ride with a toddler, renting a car, etc., etc., is more than I can handle on my own.) He said he would like to go as well. So, we're going. It's so strange. He has filed for divorce, hasn't served me, but wants to go to his nephew's wedding. Probably because I will act as cover for him. And for the same reasons I wouldn't want to take S by himself, he wouldn't want to take S by himself. I am willing myself not to read anything into it.


then don't read anything into it. Just be glad you are welcome by a family that still cares and also, so your son can meet some of the "normals" there.
-S had zero interest. H was clearly hurt and even commented that S had zero interest in looking at the equipment. He took it personally and was genuinely hurt. My goodness, S isn't even two years old. He has the attention span of a gnat.

I don't know if this is MLC related or if H is really this sensitive. It's hard for me to imagine what he would have been like in this scenario pre-MLC.

well, you don't know. No need to deal with it b/c honestly, this is small potatoes.

I'd bet in 5 summers IF IF they see each other much your son will feign or have a real interest and then ditch it, (I would not assume your h will exercise whatever custody he actually gets. )
-

I didn't say anything to H or S about H's comments. I don't think S even heard them. But I did find them bothersome.

Not sure why this^^ struck a chord in you. Interesting.

Perhaps Your h is just PA and so self absorbed and wants his son to mirror him, (but without dirty diapers, or needing a nap or having a cold)

Maybe he only wants his son to be the president of the "daddy fan club", etc.

Remind yourself of what many including me must....it's Not our sandbox, right?


After that incident he went on and on about how he has asked other parents about little boys' fascination with trash trucks and S isn't a weirdo because other little boys also like trash trucks. What?!? He thought S was weird because he was fascinated with trash trucks? Really? Again, he isn't even two.

I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. What does one even say to a comment like that? "Thanks for not thinking our S is a weirdo." "Thanks for doing some research and taking a consensus."

Slow down...don't escalate internally. Lots of mind reading...

IMO he's checking other parents b/c he's a new father

(and maybe b/c he's still without a fan club president in your son). I would read nothing into this.

90% of parents will tell him the same thing we are telling you, it's not a big deal and your son is not a weirdo.

Like the other comment, I don't know if this is MLC or just who H is at his core. Regardless, I don't like it and I am bothered by it.

Letting go of what we cannot control is a huge challenge, isn't it? This^^ fits that category but you probably already know that.

FWIW I don't see your h as the type to use up whatever visitation he gets so that's one worry I would not have in your situation. Seriously, as awkward and confused as he is by your son NOW, I cannot imagine him handling the time (with or without any OW) well and

just document how that all goes if and when it happens.

Maybe you can Shelve the "what if son ends up preferring H or them, to me?" fears, which may be a piece of this??

When is the wedding and how are the arrangements going to be for you? Relatives home or Hotel?

Sitters? Can you get someone to watch your son so you can enjoy the wedding?