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OwnIt #2755961 08/10/17 03:55 PM
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Well, I am also terrified. Like, yes, it's all nice and my October/November self would have loved to have known these kinds of interactions were possible in the near future... but

1) WHAT IS GOING ON? Like, he is still sleeping downstairs with EX/OM and hugging me sometimes. I set up a system with him where I only ask for a hug when I'm feeling great and happy and he offers whenever but I won't accept if I'm not feeling well. He told me how smart that was because it allows him to really figure out if he wants to hug me without the pressure of "rescueing" me from emotional turmoil. So, we're behaving like roommates and coparents but I swear the subtext is changing... and I want to hope but I don't want to get my nose smacked and I dare not ask. Moment to moment. No clarification. No referencing the future. No asking, "BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN YOUR HEAD!!!!"

2) He is actually reading MLC stuff on his own. I am terrified he will find my posts, actually. I know because he is using lingo that I did not teach him. The word monster, for instance. And, he referenced his concern that his parents won't be around forever and I asked him if he worries about that and he said, "Well, that's part of the MLC thing, right." Then, he made fun of people who go out and buy convertibles and said, "well, what does that fix. It's just a deflection from the real issues" and I didn't say a word and kept eating my food. He said, "I guess I shouldn't talk, eh?" to which I did say, "I think you developed your own deflection skills." and we both laughed.

Him: Do you think I'm in a midlife crisis?
Me: (thinks: OMG YES)
Me: It doesn't matter what I think. What do you think?
Him: It all fits.
Me: Hmm. Great. The literature says that when you can say that's part of what's happening to you, maybe you're almost done cooking. Like a pie.

And we both laughed.

3) He complained to me about EX/OM's passive boundaries and lack of clarity. POT KETTLE BLACK! but, lately, he's been really great about being clear in his boundaries, putting forth his intentions without asking permission, etc. etc. etc. Hearing him say about EX/OM that they had a lot of growing in this area almost made me want to laugh out loud, but I bit my tongue. But, when I referenced a few times that EX/OM went ballistic on me for ASKING for something that I thought was reasonable, he nodded and said, "Yeah, they're really far back on that one."

So, I'm scared, basically. Because I want to hope. But it's not even been a year since BD. He says that he thinks it started a year or two before then, but even so... there is more rollercoaster ahead, right? I am scared I'm reading too much into this, but my gut says we've turned a corner. And, I don't want to get hurt again.

Good news: I have a crush on this woman. She's pretty dreamy in lots of ways and also poly. She leads mindfulness sessions, super self aware and emotionally aware, well boundaried, emotionally present, super brilliant, lovely politics, red curly hair, curvacious... *swoon* I met her husband a while ago and I also like him (see, as I said in the newcomer thread, I'd have to know and like a potential metamour). She's been travelling for 8 months. Just before she left, in December, I talked about how I was trying to figure out if I could date casually through this mess and I wasn't sure I was ready and she told me she was also thinking about dating but was about to take off for 8 FREAGIN' MONTHS.
So didn't think it would be fair. "But, we'll still be friends when I get back," she said. Code for we can start dating? I keep a really small filtered list where I journal more regularly to close friends (many of them were pretty heavy on the just leave already bandwagon... it's hard to convince feminists that you're emotionally abusive H is worth staying for and fair enough, I would have said the same). Anyway, she knows all the drama and would know what she's getting into and I think an really casual low-key intimate friendship could actually be a wonderful thing right now. BECAUSE I MISS TOUCH. AND OTHER STUFF.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Surv1ve #2755963 08/10/17 04:12 PM
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So Survive, maybe the friendly co-parent/roommate thing can work for you, or maybe it can morph into something later on. I tell you, it beats the alternative. Mine is nasty and cruel and sneaky and hurting my kids. At least yours is involved and working on kindness, etc.

I'm not going to pretend to get your lifestyle because I'm probably as monogamous and hetero as someone can get, but if you like the woman and she likes you and you are in the bounds of what is acceptable in your relationship and she is in hers, then it seems to me like you give it a shot and maybe that takes some of the pressure off the relationship with H for both of you. Who knows what the future holds?

OwnIt #2755968 08/10/17 04:46 PM
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Yes, you're right, OwnIt. I can see your point for sure. I am just worried about dropping my guard and having him monster up.

I meant to add that she's back and I'm seeing her next Thursday. H certainly encourages me to date, but I think he's hoping to take the pressure off. I suspect he's actually not going to like it... and wondering whether or not I was trying to trigger his distress about losing me kept me out of dating for quite a while. But, heck, I can't live my life for him.

I also wanted to think about whether or not I could get involved with someone and continue my growth, but I think I can. And, I also didn't want to bring anyone into this weird island, but she knows and seems to accept it as a piece of growth and transformation. And, she seems so stable and so grounded while super articulate in boundaries, and that's pretty appealing.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Surv1ve #2756249 08/12/17 05:14 PM
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So, today, D11 had an activity she was supposed to go to at 6 and EX/OM was driving her there. A few minutes before the activity started, H asked, "Who is driving D11 to the [thing]". EX/OM said, "Whoever..." and H rushed D11 into the car and stomped off. But, then he came back and said that where EX/OM said to go was the wrong place and that the possible place was swarming with people so was there any more specific instructions. I pulled up the email and said, "No, and did you need me to bring her?" because I know how he feels about crowds.

I'm still having this enormous fear response to him, which is highly inconvenient for DB'ing AND Acting as If, so when he came back home, I was trying not to visibly cower while he stiffly organized his dinner.

Perhaps 10 minutes later, he said, "So, it seems like a pretty big miscommunication. How can we prevent it from happening again."

I was so relieved and I learned a lot from the conversation. I also learned that EX/OM isn't much kinder to H than EX/Om is to me. EX/OM acknowledged that EX/OM was supposed to drive D11 but said that H was having such an anxious fit, EX/OM was just going to let him solve his anxiety.

H: If I had known you intended to drive her, I would have been asking you at least 15 minutes earlier if you were leaving. It's not fair to drop the ball on the kids
EX/OM: There was no problem and H was making a problem deal of nothing.
Me: ((watching tennis or something...)

I chimed in at points trying to take ownership of things that were mine.

EX/OM: Is this really such a big deal that it required a 30 minute debrief?
H: I was FURIOUS when I got in the car. It's just another example of me being expected to pick up all the dropped balls.
Me: I really appreciated the debrief. I learned a lot. And, maybe this isn't the biggest deal ever, but we learn how we miscommunicate in the micro moments. That said, if someone drops the ball with D11 on a Saturday night when you two are going out, I will expect whoever dropped the ball to deal with D11's meltdown.
EX/OM: H didn't have to drive her. There are two other adults in the house. He could have refused.
H: I seriously cannot have this conversation anymore. I need to go.

Me: (sit there sort of stunned).

I thanked him later for the debrief, which I thought was such a better way to manage his anger than passive aggressive stomping or lashing out at someone.

H is going on an 8 hour scuba charter with me next Sunday. It's like a 12 hour day together. He's visibly excited about this wreck (one of our favorites) and said, "I know I said I wasn't going to go diving with you again in the daytime because we had some tense conversations, but I have realized how many opportunities I had to change the direction. I'm not going to give up diving with you when I can just use active rather than passive boundary setting. I really messed up there. I'm going to do better."

Ownit, it really is BEYOND confusing. I think I'm as confused n now as I was shortly after bomb drop. Like, I just don't know what to expect. Some of the stuff he says (like the paragraph about diving with me), he would have never been able to articulate before BD and definitely not after BD.

If this is the guy that comes out of it and if that guy comes back to this M, I will actually think this has been worth it.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
OwnIt #2756268 08/13/17 02:01 AM
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You asked a question about how will you know when he's coming out of crisis. Here's a thread that I created many years ago about reconnection...you might want to read it. Now, don't be fooled...he needs to be consistent in the reconnecting process. It will take a while before they fully reconnect and stay reconnected.

TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection (New)


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2756297 08/13/17 10:08 AM
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Hi Job,

Thanks for the thread. I think I actually found it the day before or yesterday as I started digging specifically for info re: how to tell if they're coming out or not. That said, I'm going to read it again. And again. Somewhere, I found the idea that when they enter the tunnel and when they exit the tunnel can be the most anxiety provoking for the LBS.

BD was not yet a year ago. So, it is definitely too early. Yet, there are glimmers of a guy that emotionally aware in the way that former H never was.

H has been spending a WHOLE Lot of time with his parents and he offered recently that he understands how they both contributed to his present day struggles while recognizing they're doing the best they can. He talked about wanting to find community in rock climbing and seems to be looking forward to reconnecting to our scuba boat.

I may have alleviated his worries about "pressure" if he's too nice to me. He talked about the worry that I'll read too much into his expressions of care about me and will just expect to go right back to normal. I told him that I thought it was pretty insulting if he thought I would just let him come back without doing the work we both need to do. I don't want to make that road seem too hard, but I also don't want him to think that I'm just waiting here, hoping and praying. God, as if. I love him, and I hope... but there is a lot of trust earning to do. He actually got mad at me, but I just shrugged and didn't offer anything further. It's the truth.

Do MLC people peek out of the tunnel which SUCH clarity?

But my job is probably to make myself a list of "what it looks like to not have expectations" and read it every day. Or else.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Surv1ve #2756316 08/13/17 12:16 PM
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Can you share that list with me? Seriously. I need something like that.

Surv1ve #2756317 08/13/17 12:25 PM
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Surv1ve,

Your h still sounds like he is in replay. They tend to spend quite a bit of time w/parents/siblings during this time. Your h may be one of the very few that may be having a "mild" MLC and could come out the side sooner rather than later. Some go off the rails, but not so far off that they can't right themselves in a short period of time. But, time will tell as to whether he's having a few moments of clarity and will continue on down the road in a good frame of mind or not.

I think you are very wise not to allow him back home w/o doing the necessary work on himself and also to earn your trust once again. Sometimes, if they return home too early and haven't dealt w/their issues, they can go back out and complete their journey at a later time and I can assure you, the second time that they pick up where they left off from the first journey will be far more intense.

I would suggest that you listen to what he has to say. If he talks like a duck and acts like a duck, then he'll be a duck, i.e., in other words, if his words do not match up w/his actions, then he's not baked fully and ready to return home.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Surv1ve #2756318 08/13/17 12:26 PM
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9 months post BD my h peeked out with what *seemed* like clarity. I also have a live-in and he moved back into the master bedroom. And yet . . . things were quite off. He wanted to get back together but did not seem to get what he had done. And when I began to discuss the damage he'd done to our kids, he shut down. That was a huge red flag. He wasn't owning anything.

He wanted me to write out what he needed to do, like a shopping list! In fact in hindsight, I think he wanted me to help him "function" through his days.

The second I confronted him on something, poof! He moved back into his dorm room like a jilted teenage girl.

Then, just as is written, he got much, much worse. They get much, much worse before they can get better (if they do happen to do the work to get better).


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
HaWho #2756323 08/13/17 03:02 PM
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Mine is also a live-in job. Which I'm glad for and not glad for. He is living in the basement -- much like HaWho, I think. I wouldn't let him move back into the master bedroom without some serious work and re-earning of my trust pretty consistently.

HaWho -- god, basically asked you to be his mother. Yikes!

Replay, eh? Fair enough and thank you for the feedback.

I told him tonight at climbing about my plans to see my crush next Thursday. It was super weird. He told me that he isn't sure he would have agreed to an open relationship 10 years ago if he'd felt like his wants and need mattered, but that the current H would agree to an open relationship now. Then he told me he has no right to tell me to date or not (yes, absolutely true) because he doesn't believe that anyone has that right but that he commits to letting me know if something is bothering him in an open and honest way. Since he hasn't referenced our romantic/committed relationship in forever, being given "permission" to date (I was not asking for permission, merely expressing my intentions) but receiving his commitment to monitor his own feelings for jealousy/envy/needs (an acknowledgement that he fears losing me?) and would let me know.

I didn't know what to make of it.

Ownit, I'm not sure I have a list exactly. I had some quiet time at work on Friday and I read all the things on all the sites (I'm a counselor, it's work related? kind of?). I'm not sure I can make a list easily, but if I go back for my own research (and I might!), I'll make it a little easier for me to follow my own trail and share. How's that?


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
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