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M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Quote:
I'm also trying to create a loss, and consequences for her actions. Sandi says these are good things, that W has no respect or attraction towards me


That does need to change. But you have to get all of your ducks in a row before respect, much less attraction is even considered. You know the rule - respect is earned, not given. And your actions over the marriage haven't given her a reason to respect her. Threats/damage/consequences don't either.

Attraction is a whole different ball game. Attractions change as we grow. Maybe she is no longer attracted to your look, etc. That's entirely possible, and it may never come back. What then?


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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And my answer:

Quote:

I'm also trying to create a loss, and consequences for her actions. Sandi says these are good things, that W has no respect or attraction towards me


That does need to change. But you have to get all of your ducks in a row before respect, much less attraction is even considered. You know the rule - respect is earned, not given. And your actions over the marriage haven't given her a reason to respect her. Threats/damage/consequences don't either.

Attraction is a whole different ball game. Attractions change as we grow. Maybe she is no longer attracted to your look, etc. That's entirely possible, and it may never come back. What then?


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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*you, not her


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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I told the OM in my case that he could have my wife, but if he ever stepped foot near my kids that I'd break his legs. No joking around. Man up or get out.


Love it Jeep! Luckily, for me, OM2 knows who I am so no need to say anything.

Wsh, I would stop focusing so much on W and OM. What would have happened if you had seen her in the car with him at the drive thru? You can't stop her from seeing him so there is no point in driving yourself crazy thinking about them together. Also, IMO, I think the only time anyone needs details in regards to their S's A is when they are willing to work on the M. It is a way of building back some trust. If your W is not willing to work on the M then let it go. You don't want to know the details anymore.

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I gave him their numbers. If they ask me how he got their numbers, then I'll just tell the truth, that he asked for their numbers. My wife really likes him. So she shouldn't be mad if he calls.


She may see it as you trying to have someone convince her to get back with you. Even if she likes the pastor this may backfire so just be prepared if it does.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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wsh

what are you doing to become the man you want to become?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
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LOL. I feel like I keep answering that question, 25. I appreciate you all pushing me, though.

I got an appointment with a counselor today for next Wednesday. I am reading Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. I'm working out. I'm probably the highest weight I've ever been. It's a slow climb, but about 1 to 2 pounds a month, which I've read is realistic to expect. I hang out with the friend that I made as often as he has time for. I read this site. The church is going to have one of those mentor guys contact me. I've gone to church 4 of the 5 last Sundays. Today, I weeded a flower bed in the back yard. It's very painful to be back there because I haven't been back there much. The back yard reminds me of my wife and dog more than the house does because I've spent a lot more time in the house. I felt a lot better after doing the weeding. My wife has left me with a big yard full of flower beds that I've got to take care of without her. It's going to be very sad mowing her vegetable garden, too. I'm also keeping up with my job, keeping everyone happy there. I've gotten a lot of praise at work since my wife left. So, I'm very glad I've been able to keep up with that. I've been extra sad about my wife over the last few days, though. I have been hanging out with and getting a lot of support from my parents, but that probably doesn't count as GAL. I'm going to do more GAL, once I figure out more that I want to do. Thinking about going for that flight school.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Don't think about going to flight school. Just do it.


Me:45 ExW:48
M:04/97
3 Bombs & 2 ReCons
1st BD 11/10
D Finalized 4/20
D-16 S-14
Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
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Originally Posted By: LITB
Don't think about going to flight school. Just do it.


What he^^ said.

AND do something that has other people in it.

Good job at the job. Just wanting you to do something that makes you uncomfortable. I'm not lying when I say it'll help you.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Originally Posted By: LITB
Don't think about going to flight school. Just do it.


^Yep. Did it at one of the duty stations a few years ago. Loved it!


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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How many times have you guys fought the urge to talk to your WAS and whine, complain, reason, and so forth? It's so hard when there are things you want to say to them so badly but DB says you shouldn't. It's that whole trust the head over the heart thing. Why is it our instinct to do what we shouldn't to get our spouses back?


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Wish

We try everything.

Try being the operative word. Nothing works, as No one can talk another into loving them. Begging, pleading etc isn't attractive.

It is what you do not what you say that attracts your spouse. If there is an OM1 OM2 or even OM3..... none of that ids good. A waywards mindset us destructive to you. You can't love the waywardness out of a wayward.

We are encouraging you to develop you. And will keep on doing this until you put you first. Thus is the most important thing that you can do for you.

Mind and actions 100% on you. You are a young man with a great heart and attitude, and I encourage you to focus on you.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Actions not words.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
How many times have you guys fought the urge to talk to your WAS and whine, complain, reason, and so forth? It's so hard when there are things you want to say to them so badly but DB says you shouldn't. It's that whole trust the head over the heart thing. Why is it our instinct to do what we shouldn't to get our spouses back?


Because doing something new and different is by definition Uncomfortable for us. So we go back to what we know.

Cheeseless tunnels. Do you remember that phrase? What once worked OR seemed to work gets repeated even in the face of evidence it no longer works

or even makes things worse.

Whining and complaining are never effective at getting authentic change in them.

Why would it? I think you know this.

Someone might do something to silence us to save themselves the hassle of hearing it

but they won't want to STAY and hear that.

DBing seems counter intuitive to many people and they resist it.

Guess it's about you deciding

whether you are more uncomfortable with your life as it is -

or changing.

Once you are here, zero of your options are comfortable or painless.

THAT^^^ is hard to accept. But when you think about it, it's actually self evident.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Try googling comfort zone.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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My question, though, is why is it our instinct to do the things that will make our spouses not want to come back or stay? Mostly everyone wants to beg and plead, right?


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Wish

Each of our sitches are different.

The way I think of it is we have behavioural habits that become entrenched. Some of these are unattractive and counter productive. Some of them come from childhood (FOO) and others just from automatic responses.

There are many different ways of patterning, often we behave without thinking or our thinking is skewed. Sometimes it's a test for the other, or for finalising the sitch, getting it over with.

They say there are four emergency responses, fight (anger) flight (going silent and escaping) freeze (fear, rabbit in the headlights) or faun (placate, beg etc). And it's obvious which one this is I think.

Which of these we do is in our comfort zone.

And usually none of these responses work. Only working on us to become assists us. Remember, much of our response is automatic, so to change an automatic response we dig deep and shift.

So likely losing your temper or going silent, sulking or falling to pieces wouldn't work either. In essence a healthy strong detached response is best.

Those are my thoughts

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
My question, though, is why is it our instinct to do the things that will make our spouses not want to come back or stay? Mostly everyone wants to beg and plead, right?


I am not sure I understand the question exactly. But no, I did not want to do things I thought would hurt the cause.


I did not ever beg, and I did not plead so much as try to reason with him. (And I still think if I'd been in court arguing, I'd have won!)

But h could not hear me so it did not matter how brilliant and persuasive my points were. My words were totally ineffective. And so was anger, even if it was "right". The more I challenged his choices, the more he defended them. As far as I recall, once I really truly knew what did not work, I stopped doing it.

DBing helped me a great deal with no longer doing what was harming our m. I hired a DB coach too, and probably had 12-15 sessions with her. That was the single best thing I did.

It wasn't the only thing, but it was key.

Good luck


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 355
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
My question, though, is why is it our instinct to do the things that will make our spouses not want to come back or stay? Mostly everyone wants to beg and plead, right?

I just thought of a good point. Just as my instincts as a man to treat my wife like a man wants to be treated, like I want to be treated, rather than how a woman wants to be treated, greatly contributed to my failure as a husband, other instincts like begging, pleading, and convincing could fail me the same, even though they seem so right (well, at least convincing and sweet talking).

25, did your husband have another woman?


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
How many times have you guys fought the urge to talk to your WAS and whine, complain, reason, and so forth? It's so hard when there are things you want to say to them so badly but DB says you shouldn't. It's that whole trust the head over the heart thing. Why is it our instinct to do what we shouldn't to get our spouses back?


Reason, yes. Whine and complain? No. Who wants to hear someone whine and complain?

We've all been there. And we all have crushed that butterfly into dust. Is it right? No, but we do it because we want to hold onto our memories of what we ONCE had. That's what it boils down to...the fact that we are fighting for the memory of the person we had, not the person we have - well not really, because we don't have that person, either. The bigger question is why do we do this? Why do we continually fight for someone that doesn't feel the way we do? Why do we fight for someone who has disrespected us and the marriage so greatly as to sleep with someone else? That's a hard question to answer.

The sun will always rise. Maybe we do it out of fear of the unknown. We always think if we do this or this or this that it will somehow magically make them want to come back, when it does nothing more than drive a wedge into the chasm that is already there. I get it. I truly do. I once did all those things. I thought, maybe if I did this - maybe if I took her out on a date, whatever - that things would change. We've all been there.

Maybe our answer lies in our own selfishness.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: V
So likely losing your temper or going silent, sulking or falling to pieces wouldn't work either. In essence a healthy strong detached response is best.

But going silent is a DB strategy. What makes you classify it here with the other three things? Or are you just saying you don't think it will help me in my situation? My wife is almost completely silent with me. She won't hardly respond to anything I say.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Quote:
She won't hardly respond to anything I say


Why do you think this is?


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Mind reading is hard of course, but what's clear is that she doesn't want to respond. Why is the question. And I wonder that a lot. Maybe interacting with me makes her feel guilty or miss me. Maybe it just makes her mad. Maybe it makes her sad. I don't know.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Mind reading is hard of course, but what's clear is that she doesn't want to respond. Why is the question. And I wonder that a lot. Maybe interacting with me makes her feel guilty or miss me. Maybe it just makes her mad. Maybe it makes her sad. I don't know.


I can totally get that. Been there, done that. How are you interacting with her? I mean, look at it from outside of your box as an impartial observer.


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My guess is that she just wants me to move on. But she told me long ago that if we ever broke up, she'd want to be friends, yet she has been treating me pretty much like I'm dead to her.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
My guess is that she just wants me to move on. But she told me long ago that if we ever broke up, she'd want to be friends, yet she has been treating me pretty much like I'm dead to her.


Oh man I know that feeling all too well. Mine said the same thing about friends, too. I told her that I look forward to an amicable relationship, but not a friendship - friends don't do what they have done to us.


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Quote:
My guess is that she just wants me to move on.


All of ours do that...they want us to be their friends in some form in order to ease their mind. Sure, they have moved on, but it makes them feel better if we are their buddies.


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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Originally Posted By: V
going silent wouldn't work either. In essence a healthy strong detached response is best.

But going silent is a DB strategy. What makes you classify it here with the other three things? Or are you just saying you don't think it will help me in my situation? My wife is almost completely silent with me. She won't hardly respond to anything I say.


I wont presume to speak for V, but I think what she means is that if you are in a discussion with your W and instead of continuing through a disagreement, you 'turn off' and 'shut down'. Its behavior similar to children's and is indicative of sulking.

I dont think she was talking about going dark and not pursuing.

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^ This


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Yeah. Our marriage could have been made to be what she needed it to be, but she would never stay away from other men. Always resisted not being able to have male friends. I always told her that's how romantic feelings for another man can come about. When she first told me how nice this guy at work is (OM). I said, "Great. Another guy that I have to worry about." This was back in the summer, right after she first started the new job. She said, "No, he's old." I said, "How old?" She told me he was 36. I suppose that was her first lie about him, that he was old. We then argued some about it, and she complained that she needs to be able to be friends with her coworkers. I told her that she needs to have friendly professional interactions, but she doesn't need to be friends with the males. The workplace is such a toxic environment for infidelity, because you spend so much time there. That's one of the major disadvantages to women entering the workforce -- too much interaction between the sexes. It's to the point where they see the people at work probably more than their own spouses. We have to really armor up our spouses with the love they need, so that they won't be receptive to it from someone else. Of course, some will cheat anyway. I'm quite certain my wife would not have, if I had been nourishing her properly.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Yeah. Our marriage could have been made to be what she needed it to be, but she would never stay away from other men.


This is a ^^^ new comment of yours. Previously you said she asked you often to get more social and go out so she and you were not the only social interactions she had.

The OM is the first A you know of.

Do you remember the things she asked of you, that you did not do? Many of those things are what we have urged you to DO, not say or think about or consider, but really do...the rumination are not getting you anywhere.

Second, there are no words that are going to get her back. That was the point of my earlier post. I am someone who uses words for a living and yet my words fell on deaf ears with my h.

He could not hear me. He was on his "mission" and the most I could do was GAL to detach, be present for my children (and losing my anger was key to being available to my children, instead of constantly being preoccupied with my pain and blaming h).

To my knowledge there was no OW. (If there had been, then he'd really have been fully crazy to keep demanding i/we join him up there.)

I guess you could say Alaska was his mistress/OW.

There were 2 tasks as I saw it. Nourish & protect my kids, and nourish and protect myself. I did not want my m to end, but I also knew I had little control over that.

I've discussed the GAL before, and just want you to know we hammer it b/c it works. I'm not sure you really believe that.

I don't believe you can outhink something your w feels.



Always resisted not being able to have male friends. I always told her that's how romantic feelings for another man can come about. When she first told me how nice this guy at work is (OM). I said, "Great. Another guy that I have to worry about."


W,
This^^^ type of comment is a huge turn off to a woman. Yes, we want sensitive men who give a crap about how we feel AND who show it. We also want men who know their value (and earn it) and don't whine or blame us for their own insecurities.

My profession was mostly male, and while I was in the military, there were 9 men for every women. I did not cheat.

If my h had told me that he was worried about every man I worked with, ...it would have made him look weak in my eyes. Not attractive, and if I was the only person in his life outside of work, that would have eventually felt burdensome.

When an interesting man joined my office, our tendency was to invite him over, along with some friends. No mystery, no hiding. but it did require effort at times.

I certainly had to attend a million military wife functions (though I was also active duty) and doctor's wife things. It's just what you do.



This was back in the summer, right after she first started the new job. She said, "No, he's old." I said, "How old?" She told me he was 36. I suppose that was her first lie about him, that he was old. We then argued some about it,

what were you arguing about, his age? You wanted her to quit? And have you as her sole social life? Wsh, that is a lot to put on one person.


and she complained that she needs to be able to be friends with her coworkers. I told her that she needs to have friendly professional interactions, but she doesn't need to be friends with the males. The workplace is such a toxic environment for infidelity, because you spend so much time there. That's one of the major disadvantages to women entering the workforce -- too much interaction between the sexes. It's to the point where they see the people at work probably more than their own spouses.

oh for God's sake...

You are giving away all your power. Why is that?

You speak in very vague generalities about being a better more attentive h and nurturing to her but then you revert to blaming her or OMs, and now it's women in the work force. It's as if you think most women cheat. That's not my experience at all.

Btw, Did you make that IC appointment? How did it go?

Also I'm curious, Do you have any siblings?


-.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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It does seem....odd


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She wanted me to go out more with her to be around couple friends more. I wish like hell now that I'd complained less about that. But, anyway, she always wanted to be able to have guy friends, and I always complained about it and warned her how feelings could go beyond friendship. For a few years in the middle, she seemed to agree with me. She said when she told guy friends that she wasn't interested in being more than friends, they would leave her alone, indicating that my fears were justified. And so she didn't try to have guy friends pretty much ever, until she got to this new job, where she had to work with this guy.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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My wife has acted like I'm the one that cheated and left her for the other person. She's treating me like I'm the bad guy.

I'm the one that has tried everything to keep her from ending the marriage.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Did you ever finish reading DR?


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Quote:
My wife has acted like I'm the one that cheated and left her for the other person. She's treating me like I'm the bad guy.


This seems like a common theme for them to do so don't beat yourself up about it. I'm also at fault for my EW's A. Don't believe it though cause nothing you did throughout the M makes you deserve such treatment. IMO they blame us so they don't have to carry the guilt anymore.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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Originally Posted By: SAL27
Quote:
My wife has acted like I'm the one that cheated and left her for the other person. She's treating me like I'm the bad guy.


This seems like a common theme for them to do so don't beat yourself up about it. I'm also at fault for my EW's A. Don't believe it though cause nothing you did throughout the M makes you deserve such treatment. IMO they blame us so they don't have to carry the guilt anymore.


Ditto for me. I could have written the same as Sal27 - my exact thoughts, feelings, and experiences.

Dont think about it. Its their coping mechanism to justify the affair. Hurts, huh?


M:39 W:36 - D1:2 D2:6
11/19/16 BD1: ILYBNILWY, EA/PA
Dec/Jan: MC, pursuing, not DBing
1/11/17 BD2: W wants 1 month break
2/1/17: Divorce Remedy. Start DBing
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There is nothing that can justify an affair. Nothing. Given as much of a piece of shite they are, we still didn't deserve it. However, affairs don't happen if the marriage isn't done - unless the wife, is well, of the unsavory sort. It is what it is.

I've seen so many excuses trying to take the blame to try to justify their dastardly behavior. "If I had only done this or that..." Instead, the blame lies solely on the cheater, period. Just as marriages don't end overnight, affairs don't begin overnight. It is what it is.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: MrBond
Did you ever finish reading DR?

Yeah. I read everything that seemed to be relevant to my situation. If my situation changes, I will read more.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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25, I just noticed that there is a lot more to your previous post than I realized before. When it's in a quote box, it's not clear that there is more text below, in the box, at least when I'm on my phone. There are no arrows or anything like that to show that there is more.

The IC appointment is today. Yesterday, I met with a Christian support person, from the church my wife and I were attending from time to time, and that went well. He has also been separated and now divorced. We are going to be meeting weekly. It's nice to talk to more people. I wear out my parents' ears. And the one friend I made doesn't seem to want a whole lot of contact, but does continue to keep up with me.

By the way, I was a very independent husband, accused of neglecting my wife. I believe you wrote that it was a lot on her for me to be so dependent on her, but that's not accurate. She asked me all the time for more attention. She is very needy. Can hardly stand to be by herself.

I have one sibling, a sister who is 3.5 years older.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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I also want to make sure we're clear that I wasn't saying it's bad that women are in the workforce. I was speaking about one big disadvantage of it, that it causes the sexes to intermingle too​ much, which is dangerous for marriage, especially when you consider how long each day people are at work, often longer than they​ are around their own spouses on the weekdays. Women being in the workforce is good because women should have just as many opportunities as men, but it made infidelity more commonplace, I think. It made it harder to keep marriages going.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: SAL27
Quote:
My wife has acted like I'm the one that cheated and left her for the other person. She's treating me like I'm the bad guy.


This seems like a common theme for them to do so don't beat yourself up about it. I'm also at fault for my EW's A. Don't believe it though cause nothing you did throughout the M makes you deserve such treatment. IMO they blame us so they don't have to carry the guilt anymore.


Not always guilt. In some cases, they justify the A b/c of their unmet needs.

To be clear, NO I don't agree with affairs.

But while all affairs are wrong, they are NOT all alike.


And similarly, the chances of reconciling after one, or rebuilding a better marriage that is far less likely to result in an affair, varies wildly.

In Wsh's situation, he admitted that his wife told him she wanted/needed more social interaction, which he was not comfortable with or did not want to do or found difficult.

And she wanted him to develop other interests outside of his gaming, presumably something she was interested in or that involved others, or that included something physical, all of which Wsh did not do. (But wishes he had, which I know is hard).

Wsh's wife also told him she did not feel comfortable with his porn use (I'm not harping on the porn, Wsh, just another reason for her feeling unfulfilled )

and how his remarks and his lower libido, made her feel less desirable.

These ^^ are some of the hallmarks of affairs women have. While men who cheat MAY not attach much emotion to it, most women who cheat, do.

So it's not really guilt that annoys them, it's the rationalizations and anger and resentment that has built up over time, about their unmet needs.

Those justifications usually happen Before the A.

Wsh has said if he had known she would leave him for not changing any of these things, then he would have done some or more of what she wanted....But imo, most women don't throw out the term "divorce" until their love tanks are empty. (Sometimes I think we ought to leave while we still love the man, in case the guy does change. But it's not very common in my experience).

Please Check out Sandi's WHOLE thread on why (some) women want to have affairs. How lonely she felt at the time, and how unattractive her h had become, to her. Not to justify things but to help you understand it more.

Sandi talks about firm boundaries with wayward wives, IF/WHEN the ww is interested in reconciling, but don't just read that part. I have noticed some men read only that part and it fuels their righteous indignation but it comes off as punitive and gets them nowhere fast. Their anger fuels the W's desire to leave and confirms her negative images of her h.....so, please Read about the mindset that led to her choice in the first place...

It often involves losing respect for their h's, or unaddressed pain from arguments or remarks made, (a lot of women are uncomfortable expressing anger)

and that leads to fewer loving feelings, & makes them more vulnerable, etc.

One other comment...

imo, the BEST NEWS you can glean from this ordeal, or learn in counseling,

is that you were NOT a perfect h. That you do have flaws of some significance.

Because if you were the best man you are capable of being, and have nothing to improve upon, and your w still cheats,

then you are powerless to affect this.


Who wants to be powerless? That is why we hammer the "focus on you" theme so much.

The spouse having the affair is not here trying to save the m.

So our Arguing with them or trying to fix them or blame them, does the person here, no good. And it deflects from our own personal work.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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I have spent plenty of time blaming myself, 25. I've admitted my faults from day one, and have admitted them several times to my wife. In fact just this morning, I sent her a very long message about how I would jump in a second to redo 2016, if I were miraculously given the chance. It was basically a lot of all the things I did wrong or things that I didn't do enough.

I also want to add that my wife has never had any issue expressing anger. She has a temper. And after bomb drop, I saw levels of anger that dwarfed all previous anger I had seen from her.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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It was basically a list of all the things I did wrong or things that I didn't do enough.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Quote:
But, anyway, she always wanted to be able to have guy friends, and I always complained about it and warned her how feelings could go beyond friendship. For a few years in the middle, she seemed to agree with me. She said when she told guy friends that she wasn't interested in being more than friends, they would leave her alone, indicating that my fears were justified. And so she didn't try to have guy friends pretty much ever, until she got to this new job, where she had to work with this guy


What was her definition of "guy friends"? Was she saying she wanted male friendships that were exclusive, private, with single and/or married?

FWIW, I share pretty much your viewpoint on married women forming friendships with men that restrict the spouses. Even in couples friendships, the man and women from opposite marriages should not carry on a private friendship without their spouses included. The same genders from the couples friendship would be fine doing things without their perspective spouses, but neither would it be considered private or secretive.

There is a difference, IMHO, in having business luncheons/meetings, and having co-workers with which you show a professional friendliness at the workplace............but the problem comes when the man & woman start pairing off and forming a private "friendship". (And this is true for married men making exclusive friendships with women). I know the arguments about how it makes no difference if someone decides to have an affair. I agree it won't necessarily band any affairs from taking place, but why set yourself up to have one? I suggest that most M people don't suddenly wake up one morning and decide to go out and have an affair......and proceed to shop for the nearest partner. People form acquaintances, attractions, friendships, etc. Then it develops into something more.

When some people have emotional needs that have been unmet in their MR, that can place them at risk for an affair...... if things don't change for the better. Would it have prevented your W from having an A if you had went out with her more? IDK how she acts around other men. But you accompanying her in social outings, would not have hurt, and perhaps would have met a need she obviously had expressed to you. That's not to say you are responsible for her affair, if she had one.

There are some people who just crave flirtatious attention.........they will push the boundaries. But that opens the door for more discussion than I have time to get into at the moment. Long story short........we have to affair proof our M as best we can. There is a reason for boundaries.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Women being in the workforce made infidelity more commonplace, I think. It made it harder to keep marriages going.

I know that I dont want to be in a relationship where i fear that my partner is going to cheat on me just because the opportunity presents itself.

To me, it looks like you are trying to find the logic and reason into why your W made these decisions. Trying to find the thing to blame so you can fix that.

In my opinion, those details dont matter. What matters is you. So what of those things that you were trying to do or considering have you actually done now?

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Good grief the backtracking.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Hey 25,

Great post and I do agree with much of what you are saying. Sure, there are many unmet needs in a lot of M's, but I think what I was trying to tell Wsh is that he is not all to blame.

Sure there are things he could have done to fulfill his W's needs, but nothing he done/did deserved to be cheated on. It was a conscience decision his W made so for her to place the blame on him is hurtful and irresponsible.

To betray a spouse by having an A is the most selfish and inconsiderate act someone can do to the person they chose to love. It is all about them at that point. The resentment they have towards their spouse is still no reason to cheat. They should leave before taking such actions.

I know you are just trying to shed some light on why an A can occur and not actually condoning a spouse having one. I will also read Sandi's post in regards to the mindset of a woman and what brought her to the decision of having an A.

With that being said I still will not allow my W to tell me her A is all my fault. Period. It is her fault and I don't think Wsh should believe it is all his fault as well. They can say what they want to justify their actions, but at the end of the day...no one can make you do anything.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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Unless the affair is a revenge one, then it isn't done out of anger. It's done because they don't give a shite anymore.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: SAL27
Hey 25,

Great post and I do agree with much of what you are saying. Sure, there are many unmet needs in a lot of M's, but I think what I was trying to tell Wsh is that he is not all to blame.

Sure there are things he could have done to fulfill his W's needs, but nothing he done/did deserved to be cheated on. It was a conscience decision his W made so for her to place the blame on him is hurtful and irresponsible.
[color:#3366FF]
I did say, in bold print - that Affairs are always wrong, but they are not all alike.

In Wsh's case, while he says he has owned his issues, when he posts here, it ends up more about her bad choices, which none of us can fix or address. She is not here trying to save the m.

I'm trying to shed light on how pointless it is to keep saying that his wife was wrong. No one is arguing that she was right. Explaining how she might have seen her m and made her choices is not making her right and him wrong.

My other point is that it's empowering for us to have things in US to work on, it's not a criticism, it's an observation...which was a painful insight for me to come to.


[/color]


To betray a spouse by having an A is the most selfish and inconsiderate act someone can do to the person they chose to love. It is all about them at that point. The resentment they have towards their spouse is still no reason to cheat. They should leave before taking such actions.

Okayyyy

Who is in favor of an affair? How does this^^^ help?

How does this^^ help an LBSer to become who we say we wants to become?




I know you are just trying to shed some light on why an A can occur and not actually condoning a spouse having one.


I'm glad you get this..


I will also read Sandi's post in regards to the mindset of a woman and what brought her to the decision of having an A.


I can't do justice to Sandi's insights or wisdom. She's here posting anyway.


With that being said I still will not allow my W to tell me her A is all my fault. Period.


You can certainly refuse to believe her, but you have no control over her beliefs or actions.

I was here...as an LBSer. For a long time...

When I challenged my h's choices, which I still think were selfish, I got nowhere.

I hope someone can benefit from what I learned b/c there was a whole lot of well reasoned and well articulated arguments I used, to no avail. And we had children to consider too...

The fundamental premise of DBing is to do what works and to work on us.

without taking these^^ fundamentals in, (for real) we will fail at DBing.



It is her fault and I don't think Wsh should believe it is all his fault as well.


Okayyy

who said it was "all his fault"? I was careful with my word choice.
Gosh, I hate to beat a dead horse, but

My point was that by focussing on the affair and blaming her, WSH gives up all his power and doesn't grow. Hence the comment that by finding flaws in ourselves, we are empowered.

I really believe If a MC told me - or if I believed - that I had been a flawless perfect wife, that nothing I had down was wrong or in error, I would have felt temporarily vindicated.
grin

And THEN, I'd have been hit with despair b/c I would know that nothing I could ever do in any marriage would give me peace, or security. I'd be powerless, always a victim.
cry
.
.



They can say what they want to justify their actions, but at the end of the day...no one can make you do anything.


Correct!

So it is up to the LBser to do what the LBSer can to become who they want to become. It is not up to the WAS to "make us" feel or do something.

My goal for someone here (once they are out of shock), is almost always to redirect the LBSer to their own path, which is all they control.

I do this for a reason.

we all have to Do what we need to do to change

for ourselves
...and paradoxically, to increase the recon chances.

This is a site for people who want to save their m's--- and the WAS is not here. .


Look, I spent more than my first year here, blaming and fuming at my h. I was furious and deeply hurt, and spent SO MUCH TIME asking WHY??? There was no OP that I knew of- though you could argue that Alaska was his mistress. To this day I think h was "Wrong" to leave me and our daughters, to pursue a place/job/singledom or whatever. I had to accept things I did not understand, let alone agree with.

it's a year I'll never get back. I gave that year up to my anger and victimhood. I did that.

Some of us decide that we don't want to reconcile, or that we can't, or that it's not going to happen anyhow, and so we want to just survive this and then to move on and maybe even flourish.

After giving this^^ years of thought,

I strongly believe it's Not helpful to the LBSer to worry about the WAS much. I think those who flourish most after this, are those who stay on their paths, without focusing on blaming their spouses OR Themselves, in total.

We have to keep redirecting ourselves away from the negatives of someone who isn't ever here...and onto our own paths. "From this day forward"...not saying we should ignore the past b/c how else will we learn what to do with ourselves AND to pick up on cues from our spouses we may have mishandled or not noticed...

When people are reeling, it may be too early to hear this.

But to repeat for emphasis, Affairs are wrong. But not all affairs are alike.

No one thinks they are fine.


And FTR - No, I did not cheat. So I'm not coming from a place of personal bias.


*But I've noticed a theme here. When people want to change to save their m's b/c they realize they've missed the mark in some important ways...and they begin a brave look within, they begin to dig deep and to really grow...(b/c pain can be the touchstone for growth)

but then BAM! The LBSer finds out about OPs.

Suddenly their own work comes to a halt!
Suddenly, the entirety of their marital problems are ALL due to the horrible selfish completely inexplicable affair....and that's just not productive. And it's rarely accurate.

I think it's counter productive. It think we can get stuck there. I think that is dangerous to our growth and to our marriages and yes, to our happiness and our children's.

Counter productive b/c when we direct our anger (however justified!) at the WAS

they flee faster, not riddled with guilt - but resentful. Sometimes they don't think they'd have had the affair in the first place, if it were not for their flawed spouse.

It's important to understand their perspective without assuming we are being blamed.

Some of this^^^ is just about empathy. While the LBSers say the cheating spouse or WAS totally lack empathy, isn't that exactly what we are showing by rote condemnation and treating all affairs and WAS's exactly alike?

The WAS says they would not have left or cheated if their LBSer had not been wrong

and the LSBer says the WAS is wrong for cheating, no matter what the LBSer did.

Isn't a part of this^^ just plain old scorekeeping - by both?

Life is short. Let's try not to get stuck.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Wsh

how are the GAL going now? I realize you have said you are working out and that's great. But I'm asking you what you are Doing for GAL and how detachment is going - b/c that's all we can ask you - as it is all you control.

It's not a criticism to ask. BTW, I don't think letters to your w (about anything)
are going to help you.

It's more pursuit and it's more arguing with her about why she should take you back,

without you Doing what she needed you to do (and which you also want to do. NOT just b/c she wanted you to do it and now you feel that it's a good tactic)

But things you want to work on for your own happiness.

One question just occurred to me. If your w really needed you to do things that you don't want to do, things that are outside your comfort zone OR to give up something that you don't want to give up

what then?

Do you see value in getting out of your comfort zone or is it something you'd only like to do if it's "required"?

In other words, do you see value in these things, independent of winning her back?


IS a part of you resisting joining/volunteering/traveling, etc, b/c you don't have a guarantee of outcome,

or b/c you just don't want to? I'm sincerely asking. You don't have to answer here. I hope you will give this some thought.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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Hey 25yearsmic,

Love your insight and your quote on forgiveness being our way out of hell.

Yes, I know you are not saying affairs are ok or justifying them in anyway shape or form. I understand that you are just trying to convey to Wsh, what we all are saying, and that is to focus his attention on himself. To get out and GAL and stop focusing all his attention on her.

This is all great advice and is exactly what he needs to do. I personally am very grateful I found this site and was able to use the same advice from everyone's posts to help cope with my own sitch.

Look, if you are here you are hurt. You do not understand what is going on and why your S is doing this to you. IMPO, I have learned early on that the advice given here is NOT to save your M. It is simply to save yourself from your M.

I was not in a good place when my W left. Crying, not eating, not sleeping, having horrible thoughts of suicide. I thought my life was over. I thought my world was crumbling down on top of me and there was nothing I could do about it.

Then, I came here. I started reading and I discovered that almost all of the WAW or WAS's have so much in common and that the LBS's also share so many similarity's in their sitch's that I realized I was not alone. That there have been many before me that were/are in the same sitch as me and the techniques they have discovered here have helped them move past relying on their M's to make them happy. This was my 2x4.

I started using what I learned here, not to save my M, but to save myself. In the past I relied too much on my M for my happiness. That is who I identified as when in social circles. That is all I have known for the past 16 years of my life. I became comfortable with that person and never in a million years thought that would change. So I am grateful that this site has taught me to love myself and become who I want to be as an individual and not someone who is just "her husband". IMO, it has helped me become a much better person/father than I ever was and has also helped me get past my own personal demons.

I also become ok with the fact that my W wants a divorce and I now look forward to the future. I know that I was not perfect in our M, and I will be forever sadden that it didn't work out, but I am stronger now and more confident than I ever was before and that I will be ok. Life goes on. I have my own identity now that I am proud of, thanks to this site and everyone on here.

Since I have seen that a lot of our sitch's are so similar, I reacted to a post that Wsh had said in regards to his experience. He simply put that his W was acting like it was him who cheated on her. This is also the same with me and my current sitch. I still get this on a daily basis. I used to cry when my W would say horrible things like this so I am sure Wsh hurts inside when his W tells him the same things. However, again, the things I learned here has helped me move past that. I just wanted to let him know that this was something common that they do and part of me believes it is to help them move past their guilt of betraying their spouses. The other part agrees with you in that they do this to justify their actions.

However, I am sorry, but I will no longer allow my W to place blame on me for her A. I am not trying to keep score or deflect the blame back on her. I am just simply standing up on my own 2 feet. I most likely never would have if I did not get out and work on myself. I probably would still be sitting here crying over the things she was saying to me.

IMPO, I think this is what Wsh needs to do as well. He can validate her feelings all he wants, understand why she chose to do what she did, but I also think he needs to realize that it is not all his fault. It takes 2 to make a M work and she stopped working on the M long before the A.

I only hope that detaching and GAL helps him as much as it has helped me and so many others on here for that fact.

I also want to thank you personally for all the kind words and insight you have offered me. Being that you are a veteran here I read your posts very carefully and thank you for taking the time to help others where you can.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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Quote:
However, I am sorry, but I will no longer allow my W to place blame on me for her A. I am not trying to keep score or deflect the blame back on her. I am just simply standing up on my own 2 feet. I most likely never would have if I did not get out and work on myself. I probably would still be sitting here crying over the things she was saying to me


I see what you are saying. Blame for an affair can only be placed in one place...And that isn't the cheated on spouse.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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SAL, thank you so much for this. It has brought me great peace today.

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Hang in there OwnIt. Spent the last few hours reading your sitch and I'm sorry that you find yourself here. However, I'm glad that you did. There are so many wonderful people and tools here that will help you grow with or without your H.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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^ This. This place has helped me tremendously.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: SAL27
I started using what I learned here, not to save my M, but to save myself.


The secret is that the steps to do one are exactly the same as the steps to do the other.

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SAL, I suspect the reason you have to deal with your wife's hate daily is because you have kids. My friend's exwife is the same way towards him. My wife has cut off almost all contact with me. We don't have kids, and therefore, she has no need to talk to me. Won't respond to anything I say to her, or answer my phone calls. She will respond to things if they are important and not about the relationship. And her responses are as short as possible. She came over for her mail last weekend. I was happy that she did not appear at all mad at me, and was quite nice. But she was very quick to leave. Left after about 15 minutes.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Hey Wsh,

Quite possibly, but on days she is with him I don't hear from her at all. It is only on her scheduled days with the kids that she decides to contact me in regards to the D situation and everything else. Like she is coming back to reality...

Just out of curiosity, are you calling her often? Are these calls necessary and are you still talking about the R when you do call her?

Next time she comes for the mail leave the house. Go for a walk, go to your friend's house, go for coffee, go to the store, go to your parents house, go anywhere, but just leave. Kindly advise her, via text, that you left her mail in the mailbox and she can go pick it up. Be courteous, but brief and if for some reason she asks about your whereabouts just tell her you are busy. Don't be mean about it, but don't go into a long explanation on what you are doing. Just keep it short and end any convo by telling her to have a good day. Don't be so available for her.

It is wonderful that she was being quite nice, but still seems like you were expecting more. Sounds like you were a little disappointed that she didn't stay long to chit chat? Lower all your expectations with her and refrain from being the one to initiate contact.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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I almost never call her, but I started messaging/texting her almost daily, about a week ago. I've gone back to apologizing and trying to convince her things, stuff like that. I think this site saves people. I'm not sure there is much success here with saving marriages, though. I don't plan to keep contacting my wife, but there are things that I want her to know. And I have gone very long periods of time barely talking to her. Also the DB coach a month or so ago advised me to contact her, even though everyone here seems to think no contact is always the best choice.

When she came for her mail last time, I thought about doing a 180, and leaving her mail outside and leaving the house, and I actually did just that. It tore me up to do it, because I wanted to see my wife so badly. I talked to my mom, and she convinced me to go back. I was kind of glad that I did because my wife had been very mad at me lately, and I was glad to see that she was no longer mad, and was very nice and respectful.

If I refrain from contacting her, then we probably wouldn't talk at all for at least a month.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Also the DB coach a month or so ago advised me to contact her, even though everyone here seems to think no contact is always the best choice.


WshIKnw,

I don't what works best, but I do know that when we're in the midst of this process we tend to evaluate everything we do at a microscopic level. Every word and action of both parties is parsed and scrutinized and we often believe we've done irreparable damage. Having gone through the h3ll that you are currently going through, I think it's just as important to make choices about your life and your marriage that you can live with and do it with confidence and the with the understanding that you may be wrong. The small things can add up, but keep in mind that your marriage may be saved because the OM decided to dump your wife, and not because you sent your wife an apology.

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Maybe but won't until he makes fundamental changes.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Wsh,

doodler is correct. At the end of the day you are ultimately the only one who has to live with your actions so you must do what you feel is right.

There were so many things that I had to say/said to my EW because I didn't want to live the rest of my life knowing that I didn't do everything possible to save the M. After those things were said then it was time for me to move on.

Just got to keep in mind that this time is about you and not her. As hard as it is you need to keep the focus on yourself and continue moving forward with or without her.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Maybe but won't until he makes fundamental changes.

My wife said that the vast majority of the things on her laundry list of complaints would have to be improved, and the vast majority of those things were caused by a lack of understanding for how much she needed changes, and a lack of appreciation for her. Both the understanding and the appreciation has been corrected by her serious threat of leaving, and then actually leaving. So, the vast majority of her complaints I believe would be fixed by that alone. Other things, like my fears, my unwillingness to chase what I want and need in life, rather than wait for it to come to me, and relying on other people to take care of me, rather than taking care of myself, allowing myself to take things and people for granted -- those things are what I'm trying to really work on.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Both the understanding and the appreciation has been corrected by her serious threat of leaving, and then actually leaving.


Simply stated and is the truth many of us know here. Good luck.


Me 42, Wife 39; Married 16; Together 17; Kids: D13, S10
Wife asks for Divorce: 03/19/13
Reconcile: 07/07/13
Round 2 Starts: 02/19/17
Apartment Life: 04/21/17
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I applaud you for getting yourself where you need to be. That way, for the next person that will enter your life.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Depression is setting in. I feel like I'm turning back into the same person I was before my wife met me and saved me. I wish I hadn't forgotten how miserable and lonely that I was before she came along. I feel like I'm withdrawing and giving up, which is what I did before. I would just stay at home, and sleep my life away. I didn't try much to have friends because I didn't think anyone wanted to be friends with me. I didn't try much to get girls because I didn't think that any of the ones I wanted would want me. My wife just came along one day out of the blue and saved me from that life, and now she's tossed me back to it, because I got slack and forgot how important she was to me. I'm the biggest idiot in the world.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Wsh,
You need to stop that negative self talk right now. You have so much potential right there peeking out, just waiting to be tapped. Please don't listen to that defeated voice. It's not coming from a place of light. None of us can afford to build our self-worth on another human. Your wife didn't save you from being anything. She may have motivated you, but you saved yourself because when you got motivated, you wanted more for yourself. You can do that again, without her! I know you can!! Now you get yourself up and get out of the house today, just find one thing to do that involves sunshine and outside. One day at a time, baby. You can do this.
((((wsh)))))


M-60 H-51
M-14 years
BD 12/26/16
S 1/1/17

"First the pain, then the rising."
Glennon Doyle Melton

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Thank you for the encouraging words, leahsue. I need to get out around people more. That's where my GAL is lacking the most.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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I'm in the same boat, Wsh. Trying to fight off the depression and anxiety. And I want to do is lay on the couch under a blanket watching tv.

Hope you feel better soon.

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WshIKnw

Please get out and about, a walk, a meetup perhaps. Some basic ordinary GAL.

Baby steps.

It's ok, part of the Kubler Ross cycle to feel down. It makes sense to me.

I would like to hear you have an IC to talk this through.

Keep posting please.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Yeah. I met with IC a week before last. Cancelled last week's meeting because of a schedule conflict and because I had recently been sick. I am scheduled to see her again this week, and will hopefully see her uninterrupted for weeks to come. I am also seeing a volunteer from my church for an hour each week. He just hangs out with me and talks to me. I see my parents and talk to them a lot. I have made one friend but I think he's very busy, because we don't talk a whole lot. I need to find clubs or support groups to go to. I've looked some but need to look more. I have queried about flight school through a form on their website, and will hopefully receive a response some time tomorrow. If I don't, I will call them.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Depression is setting in. I feel like I'm turning back into the same person I was before my wife met me and saved me. I wish I hadn't forgotten how miserable and lonely that I was before she came along. I feel like I'm withdrawing and giving up, which is what I did before. I would just stay at home, and sleep my life away. I didn't try much to have friends because I didn't think anyone wanted to be friends with me. I didn't try much to get girls because I didn't think that any of the ones I wanted would want me. My wife just came along one day out of the blue and saved me from that life, and now she's tossed me back to it, because I got slack and forgot how important she was to me. I'm the biggest idiot in the world.


Never, ever forget that YOU are the only one with the power to make you the person you want to be. Your family, your friends, and other people can help lift you up, but in the end, you're the one that has to stand.

Please note that I'm not making light of depression or any mental illness, because the truth is they are very real, and they absolutely need to be treated with therapy and/or medication as appropriate. If the world feels like it's too much, seek out some counseling for yourself. It can and will do wonders for you.


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Wish

I am glad you are talking things through. Sometimes friends are there just to do little bits of nothing or scraps of something. Friends who just walk with us, go for coffee, are at a book club. Nothing less than simple.

Every interaction need not be deep and meaningful, it can be wonderfully superficial fluff.

And that is ok.

Its going to hurt a lot, this year it's you, last year another, the year before me. Just be you and breathe.

Let me let you into another secret, there were days on end I sat and stared at the sea in pain and hopelessness. I did not want to be any more, just gone, the pain over. To be invisible.

My business disintegrated around me, then I got up dressed to the shoes and sat and watched the sea from a cafe. Then I walked and walked in the rain, mist and dark. Just walked. I joined a walking group for several days. Just to get out, talking monosyllabically. Gradually shift.

I dislike walking and the fresh air. I am as pale as moonlight and the sun burns me. It was good it was winter.

Then I dedicated myself to GAL, I turned everything to GAL I could. From the gym and coffee with staff to conversation with neighbours. I even created GAL points. Now it's second nature, my world is GAL. 98% is superficial nonsense, and it's still GAL.

Let me tell you about clothes cognition, dressing every day in a costume for the roles you play. Your costume (dressing to the shoes) makes you active to GAL. So whatever you need to get that pilot experience, white shirt, blazer, slacks or ex. So want to feel down. Dress as I did in dirty sleap attire plopped on a sofa. Instead active clothes and trainers for that walk, with warm coat and scarf. Eventually business clothes and shoes for the turn around.

Simple stuff creates a virtuous cycle.

I am very pleased to hear that you have IC and supportive church and family. A smile hasn't hurt me either.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Apologies fat fingers

And a smile hasn't hurt me either, I truly didn't want to smile. I wanted to be miserable,I wanted the world to know I was miserable. There was one flaw, I never went anywhere so that was a waste. Instead, I faked a smile and I watched serious Ted Talks. Read about abuse and studied my pain. Intense and struggling. So even a fake smile helped.

It will change gradually and inevitably. Even if you think that you do everything wrong like me. Because whatever you do is ok and part of healing as it is your path. This is part of your progress and it's ok.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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She left me with just about nothing, V. She was all the friendship and love that I felt like I needed. She left with her replacement man. She made sure she had what she needed. But has shown almost zero concern for how I'm doing. She has made herself hate me so much, I think, that she doesn't care about me. It's crazy, because I had a text message in October of her wondering where I was one night when I forgot to call her, while I was at work, before it was past her bedtime. It's amazing how she could just flip a switch, and go from caring about me so much, to caring absolutely nothing about me, and making no contact with me. I had no idea she was capable of such a fast transformation. If I could redo 2016, I would do so many things differently. I had no idea I was in danger of losing her.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
She was all the friendship and love that I felt like I needed.


Do you see how this is unhealthy for you and for her?

Please. Please. Get out and staqrt DOING something. The only way back is to force yourself to GAL. As MWD wrote in her latest email, Just Do It.

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Hello,

I have only read the past few posts and it really has struck me about how your W came in and saved you and was all you felt you needed.

There is one person that can save us, and that is ourselves. We cannot put that power into someone else's hands.

I agree with Kaizen, you need to try to find a way to get back to yourself. Find yourself. Save yourself. Start small. Find one thing to do for yourself you would enjoy.

Be your own best friend.

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Wsh - I am very familiar with how you are feeling.

I am a codependant and basically let my relationship define me and who I am. When WAW left me, I lost my best friend, confidant, and lover all at the same time.

Finding purpose has been very hard for me.

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Wsh,

I feel for you man. Please, make yourself get out of the house to begin taking steps to heal. The ball is in your court. One step at a time.


Me:45 ExW:48
M:04/97
3 Bombs & 2 ReCons
1st BD 11/10
D Finalized 4/20
D-16 S-14
Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
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Wsh, sorry to hear you aren't doing so good. There is no "light switch" that you can turn off and have these feelings go away. The only thing you can do is learn to deal with them in a positive way. Believe me, I have been there, but it does get better!

Mine left me with nothing, changed her feelings for me in such a short time, and even found herself a new man. These things were terribly hard for me to deal with so I know how hard it is. The best thing for me was to GAL and keep busy. Anytime I started reflecting on my M, and missing my W, I replaced those thoughts and found something to preoccupy my mind.

GAL does not necessarily mean to physically go out all the time. Sometimes, for me, it just meant occupying my mind when feeling depressed. For example, I would find chores around the house that I kept putting off. I would crank some music and finally clean out a closet or something. Anything that would draw my attention away from my feelings for my W.

Believe me Wsh, it s****.... It is really painful to know that the faithful one in a relationship is left picking up the pieces and healing, while the other has already moved onto a new relationship. Just know that you are not alone my friend.


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
D2: 8,3
PA: 2015
WAW: 2016
W Filed: 2017
2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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I was extremely inexperienced. The longest relationship I had before my wife was just a few weeks. Didn't seem to matter one bit to her that I hadn't had prior experiences to teach me about women. It's amazing that I held onto her as long as I did, given how little experience I had. I feel like I'm being punished for not being born knowing how to be a good man to a woman, and the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime at all. But my wife would never tell me just how unhappy she was in the marriage. She told me post-BD that she "was ready to divorce" my "a$$" when we went to a Marriage Encounter Weekend in the spring of 2015. But why didn't she tell me that then? I needed​ to know exactly how unhappy she was. It would have helped me see how much change was needed. Just as "I'm not sure I want to be with you anymore" woke me up, and made me jump to action to try to save our marriage, "I'm considering divorcing you" would have jump-started me just the same, then. But for some reason, at the time, she just told me that she wanted to go to that because it would help our marriage -- help us to communicate better. She made no indication that our marriage was in danger. I asked her why she didn't tell me just how unhappy she was, and she said it was because I would make her feel guilty for being unhappy. Seems like a bit of an unbelievable reason. Maybe she made herself feel guilty because she knew it hurt me to hear that she was unhappy. Who knows? Maybe she had wanted to leave me for years, but loved me too much and knew how much it would hurt me, and so she didn't leave. I'm just pondering.

Thank you all for your support. It means a lot.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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WshIKnw,

Is it possible that she's not being entirely truthful with you?

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Originally Posted By: doodler
WshIKnw,

Is it possible that she's not being entirely truthful with you?

About anything in particular?

Since bomb drop, no doubt. I'm am quite sure she left me for other man, but she has lied left and right about him. Now it's to the point where she won't even deny it. She just won't talk to me at all, unless she wants something. I asked her why she wasn't talking to me at all, and she said that her lawyer advised her not to.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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Wsh....this is in your sig: Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.

Given what you currently know, please take the steps to help you grow. You have history with your W where you can look back to identify areas that can be improved for YOU. You have the resources here to explore other relationship skills and learn from experiences from others.

So where you might have had reasons for not being prepared with coming into your M/R, that no longer is a crutch to lean on. We all have to begin our journey somewhere. Let your pain yield tremendous growth. Be the author of your book. The captain of your ship.

The only way to the other side of this he!!, is through it. There are no shortcuts.


Me:45 ExW:48
M:04/97
3 Bombs & 2 ReCons
1st BD 11/10
D Finalized 4/20
D-16 S-14
Going in one more round when you don't think you can. That's what makes all the difference in life.~Rocky Balboa
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Wsh,

Your W fell in love with you and chose to marry you. You did not force her to, beg her to, or bribe her. She fell in love with you so make her fall in love with you again. IMPO, the best way you can do that is let her go my friend. Become a man of confidence and someone that stands on their own 2 feet.

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She just won't talk to me at all, unless she wants something. I asked her why she wasn't talking to me at all, and she said that her lawyer advised her not to.


Sounds to me that you have said everything that needed to be said so if she doesn't want to talk to you then stop contacting her.

Just out of curiosity, why would you be trying to win her back if she isn't even denying OM at this point?


M: 37 W: 36
T: 16 M: 11
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2/07/2017 W officially dating OM2
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Wsh

Nothing, nothing you did caused her to do anything. She made her own choices.

The sense is in your handle, honey even if you had known it likely would have made no difference at all.

None of this is your fault, your WW chose to go wayward, chose to gaslight and mislead you.

There is nothing wrong with you, nothing at all. There are lots of lovely sensitive shy men on this board who love their W and family.

Men who have learned to love and grow into amazing husbands boyfriends and fathers. I am going to recommend to you that you read about some of them, in Surviving is an amazing father of 5 adopted boys whose mother went truly wayward and still is. J5k, read his story and there is a man who blamed himself for every little thing.

There are special men too like Fogg and Old Dog. Gentle kind and very loving men. I count you as one who is deeply hurt and afraid of being alone. That's ok. You might want to find SH story too.

So I am going to tell you over and over, who you are and how you feel is completely totally and utterly ok.

And you will get through this.

Truly

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


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Originally Posted By: SAL27
Sounds to me that you have said everything that needed to be said so if she doesn't want to talk to you then stop contacting her.

Just out of curiosity, why would you be trying to win her back if she isn't even denying OM at this point?

Because I love the f***ing sh** out of her, and there are things that I just crave saying to her -- things that maybe weren't made clear in the past, things that hadn't been said yet, things that I just crave reiterating. It also doesn't seem to matter what I do. So, at this point, I just am kind of doing what feels good. I do censor myself some. Some things sound whiny to me. So, I don't send them. I started around her birthday, a couple weeks ago, sending her texts about every day. I never get a response, and never expect one. I did plenty of no contact before that. That seemed to be doing more harm than good, helping her forget me. My step mom said that if she dumped a guy and he made no contact, she'd think he didn't care, and she would just keep going. Maybe she doesn't really know what she truly would do. Maybe no contact would pull her back. But when they leave for someone else, it doesn't seem that no contact is going to pull them back. They have no reason to go back, if they have a person out there to grab hold of, most likely. See, my wife complained throughout our relationship, mostly in the later years, about not getting enough of my attention, and not doing enough things with me. So, I don't know; it seems bad to do no contact with someone that craved your attention, and left because they weren't getting enough of it. I just try this and that, looking for results. That's what I've been doing the whole time, since she dropped the bomb. The only results I ever appeared to get were from giving her attention. I never seemed to get good results from no contact. I only seemed to get more distance. It had to be the right attention, though. Attention that made her mad was the worst thing in the world, because she feeds off of anger, to do the very difficult and terrible things she has done.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
Originally Posted By: SAL27
Sounds to me that you have said everything that needed to be said so if she doesn't want to talk to you then stop contacting her.

Just out of curiosity, why would you be trying to win her back if she isn't even denying OM at this point?

Because I love the f***ing sh** out of her, and there are things that I just crave saying to her -- things that maybe weren't made clear in the past, things that hadn't been said yet, things that I just crave reiterating. It also doesn't seem to matter what I do. So, at this point, I just am kind of doing what feels good. I do censor myself some. Some things sound whiny to me. So, I don't send them. I started around her birthday, a couple weeks ago, sending her texts about every day. I never get a response, and never expect one. I did plenty of no contact before that. That seemed to be doing more harm than good, helping her forget me. My step mom said that if she dumped a guy and he made no contact, she'd think he didn't care, and she would just keep going. Maybe she doesn't really know what she truly would do. Maybe no contact would pull her back. But when they leave for someone else, it doesn't seem that no contact is going to pull them back. They have no reason to go back, if they have a person out there to grab hold of, most likely. See, my wife complained throughout our relationship, mostly in the later years, about not getting enough of my attention, and not doing enough things with me. So, I don't know; it seems bad to do no contact with someone that craved your attention, and left because they weren't getting enough of it. I just try this and that, looking for results. That's what I've been doing the whole time, since she dropped the bomb. The only results I ever appeared to get were from giving her attention. I never seemed to get good results from no contact. I only seemed to get more distance. It had to be the right attention, though. Attention that made her mad was the worst thing in the world, because she feeds off of anger, to do the very difficult and terrible things she has done.


So, she is still sleeping with the OM and yet you still keep pushing and pushing and pushing. Why? This "I love the f***ing sh** out of her" reason is, well, ridiculous. Look, she DOES NOT LOVE YOU and SHE DOES NOT CARE FOR YOU. When are you going to let that sink in?

The question is, at what point and price do you pay to soul/self worth/dignity/etc for all of this? Good grief, grow a spine and stop this. It's doing nothing but bringing you further down the rabbit hole of despair, which you reek of.

We have said over and over and over but yet you still keep doing the same thing. Either you are a troll or really need help on yourself, and if its the help, then seek it. But leave your "wife" alone. Period.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
It also doesn't seem to matter what I do.

Read this. Let it sink in. These are your words and they are dead on. Right now, it doesnt matter what you do.

So stop doing things for/to her. As I said to 180Man, if you are sinking in quicksand, whats the best thing to do? It's to stop and relax. Go slowly and deliberately. Too much activity and youll sink. Right now, you are sinking.

Now, more than ever is the time to leave her alone and become NowIKnw.

Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
So, at this point, I just am kind of doing what feels good./

You know what feels good? Eating 17 cookies. That feels good for a few minutes. And then it hurts and I have regret. How about drinking tons of teuila? Feels good for a bit....then, it feels really not good. Stop going by what feels good - it's likely just numbing your pain. Get to the root of the issue and resolve it.

Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
That seemed to be doing more harm than good, helping her forget me.

Do you think texting your W daily is doing harm or good?

Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
My step mom said that if she dumped a guy and he made no contact, she'd think he didn't care, and she would just keep going. Maybe she doesn't really know what she truly would do.

Yeah, I think not. I always said I would drop a SO if I found out they were cheating on me. Then they did, and I realized that it wasnt a dealbreaker for me. Im guessing your step mom has never been in this position...

Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
But when they leave for someone else, it doesn't seem that no contact is going to pull them back. They have no reason to go back, if they have a person out there to grab hold of, most likely.

They. Will. Never. Go. Back. To. The. Same. Relationship.

If she is going to come back, it has to be different.

YOU have to be different.

So far, all I can see is your words say you are 'awakened'. But where are the actions to back that up? If I cant see them, Im sure she wouldnt be able to see them.

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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
The question is, at what point and price do you pay to soul/self worth/dignity/etc for all of this? Good grief, grow a spine and stop this. It's doing nothing but bringing you further down the rabbit hole of despair, which you reek of.

We have said over and over and over but yet you still keep doing the same thing. Either you are a troll or really need help on yourself, and if its the help, then seek it. But leave your "wife" alone. Period.

Am I the only one that finds Jeep's words harsh? I don't feel you are lifting me up, Jeep. I feel like you are putting me down. If you think I'm a troll or just disgustingly pitiful, then maybe it would be best if you gave your guidance to other people, that don't bug you so much.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Not harsh, but needed. There is no need for sunshine and false hope to be spread, but real life...because you certainly don't listen to the advice given.

Or would you rather your hand be held with false hope? Would you rather hear that "oh she may come back IF you do this" or "she is just in some crisis and will come back?" It seems you would rather hear false hope than the real thing. Whatever floats your boat, because what you are currently doing now certainly won't help with another - IF - relationship. Either fix yourself and change, or drive the same road.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Wsh,
I agree, I don't think Jeep is trying to "lift you up"~ I think he's trying very hard to "wake you up". Sometimes Jeep leans a little more toward the reality check than the hand holding, but that's just him calling it like he sees it. I think if you will take a few minutes, and skim back through your threads and all the words and words of the very same advice from so many people on here, you will begin to see a pattern of- everyone saying the same things to you about how to get better, for you, because your wife is gone- but you spend way more time (it seems to me) trying to convince everyone on here that your situation is different and you are handling it a better way. I think you'll also find tons of people, myself included, who faithfully come back to you with encouragement to keep on trying, pull yourself together, etc., but you don't seem to be acting on any of that advice. I'm going to be really honest here- if I were trying to be apart from my spouse right now, and had asked for that loud and clear, and he texted me cheery little things every single day, I would block his number. I truly believe we all have the same goal-to help you grow and be stronger, for your sake, not to save your marriage, and to help you be able to look back one day and know you maintained your dignity and self-worth in the face of a horrible situation. Please, please hear us. I think you are damaging any chance you may have of ever getting her attention again (in a positive way, anyway) by the pushing you keep doing, but more than that, I think you are setting yourself up to stay stuck in a sad place, and you are the only one who can make that decision to stay there, or get up and become the man only a fool would leave. I say all this in sincere love and best wishes for you.


M-60 H-51
M-14 years
BD 12/26/16
S 1/1/17

"First the pain, then the rising."
Glennon Doyle Melton

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I don't know how to change, Jeep. I've been this way my whole life. My mom said she never had to spank me. All she had to do was give me an angry look and I would straighten up. I was voted Most Timid in highschool, along with three other people in my grade. In highschool and college, I didn't venture outside much because I didn't think many people would like me, and none of the girls I was ever interested in ever seemed interested in me. And then all of a sudden, my last year of college, my wife came along and saved me from all that, just like a gift from God. She dated me for two and a half years before marrying me. She had plenty of opportunity to see the man that I was. I always thought she was with me because she was a strong, assertive girl, that wanted to wear the pants in the relationship, and because I was similar to her brother, and I always figured she wanted to do for me what she hoped some girl would someday do for him. She was a real blessing, but as the years went by, I forgot more and more what she had done for me, and I got slacker and slacker. With each passing year, I felt more and more secure in the relationship, which made me less and less motivated to try so hard. I wish I hadn't forgotten all that she did for me. And I wish I hadn't forgotten how important it was for me to ask her how happy she was in the relationship, because she would never tell me when she was unhappy. She would pretend to be happy ("fake it until you make it"). I have never understood why she wouldn't tell me her overall happiness level -- why I had to pull that out of her.

I'm sorry I'm not a tough guy like you, Jeep. I wish I were tough. If it were an easy thing to do, everyone would be doing it. Because who wants to be weak?


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Hey Wsh,

I understand you have some deeply engrained patterns stemming from your childhood. I do too.

It's not about being "tough" but facing the fears that have held you back. Have you considered seeing a therapist to sort some of those things out?

I'm actually gonna start seeing my therapist again tonight after work.

Please take some time to read up on codependancy. You (and I) have basically made our spouses our reason for being.

Your first assignment is to work on your self esteem. Who are you without your wife? If you don't know, thats a good place to start with your recovery.

You gotta be able to stand on your own 2 feet before your wife with respect you. And your wife needs to respect you before she can start loving you again.

I'm with you buddy, we can do this.

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Originally Posted By: WshIKnw
I don't know how to change, Jeep. I've been this way my whole life. My mom said she never had to spank me. All she had to do was give me an angry look and I would straighten up. I was voted Most Timid in highschool, along with three other people in my grade. In highschool and college, I didn't venture outside much because I didn't think many people would like me, and none of the girls I was ever interested in ever seemed interested in me. And then all of a sudden, my last year of college, my wife came along and saved me from all that, just like a gift from God. She dated me for two and a half years before marrying me. She had plenty of opportunity to see the man that I was. I always thought she was with me because she was a strong, assertive girl, that wanted to wear the pants in the relationship, and because I was similar to her brother, and I always figured she wanted to do for me what she hoped some girl would someday do for him. She was a real blessing, but as the years went by, I forgot more and more what she had done for me, and I got slacker and slacker. With each passing year, I felt more and more secure in the relationship, which made me less and less motivated to try so hard. I wish I hadn't forgotten all that she did for me. And I wish I hadn't forgotten how important it was for me to ask her how happy she was in the relationship, because she would never tell me when she was unhappy. She would pretend to be happy ("fake it until you make it"). I have never understood why she wouldn't tell me her overall happiness level -- why I had to pull that out of her.

I'm sorry I'm not a tough guy like you, Jeep. I wish I were tough. If it were an easy thing to do, everyone would be doing it. Because who wants to be weak?


There is no place like the right time. Stop relying on the past to guide your future. The sad thing is, your marriage and wife are no more. There is no going back. And the more that you send to her, the more - as leahsue said - it will piss her off and push her away. There is absolutely nothing you can do that will get her to come back. Some questions don't have answers - and if they do, they are the ones you don't want to hear. Just don't ever contact her again. Period.

So what if you were timid in high school. That was then. If you live in the past, then that defines your future. It's not about being strong or whatever, its about standing up for yourself and your own mental well being. You've said the same over and over and over. Time to stop that.

Change one small thing about you. And then another. And, you'll find that a lot of smalls add up to be a big. However, if you don't, you'll always be a basket case. It is what it is. Life isn't fair...and it damn sure isn't kind. Play the game or get ran over.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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But remember, the first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club.

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Why the reference to Fight Club, doodler?


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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WshIknw,

I think the movie illustrates the metamorphosis from passively reacting to life's events to actively making changes (i.e. getting out of a rut), even if it's not always pretty. I'm not endorsing anarchy, but I think there are some interesting observations that can be made; particularly the scene in "Fight Club" where Durden asks a guy what's preventing him from achieving his goals.

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I have been very guilty of not being active enough in pursuing things in my life. It was one of the things that my wife complained about. She said I just let life happen to me. And my dad also tells me that I do that. But she might have never met me if I had been a more active player, because I might have already had a girl when she came along, or maybe my wife would have just waited for me to be single, before she would have contacted me. That's also possible.


M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

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Dude, quit living in what-ifs. It is what it is. The future is what you make it.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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M: 33, W: 30 @BD
M 7, T 10
BD: Early Dec
W left: Late Dec
W got stuff: Late Jan
W sent S papers: Mid Feb
OM cnfrmd: Late Feb

Pain can yield tremendous growth OR everlasting sadness and bitterness.
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