To recap: my W unloaded on me with a laundry list of issues she had with me and the MR in December 2016. 2 days later she went on a work trip where an EA with a co-worker turned into a PA. The PA has since ended after OM's W found out and contacted me, plus due to my W realizing the guy was lying and manipulating the whole time and had no intentions of leaving his W. Currently my W has been in more contact with me and is wanting to come by the house more often but is often hot/cold.
For my update, I'm doing well with detaching. Almost too well. I've definitely reached a point where I'd be OK with no R but I'm quickly getting to a point of wondering whether I even want it. So much damage and pain has been caused by her actions and words that it makes me wonder what I'd even be trying to save. She is rewriting history to make herself seem more innocent (talking as if we were basically divorced at the time of the PA) or noble (talking like she ended the affair because it was hurting people).
That she's able to twist things and, I think, genuinely believe them is kind of scary. I really question her mental state with how she talks and what she's done. And I don't know if she has the capability of putting in the hard work a R takes. I'm seeing now how self-centered and selfish she's always been.
No contact is still in place. We haven't spoken since last Monday and I have 0 intention of initiating any further talks. I had a good weekend of dinner with my sister/BIL one night, dinner with my parents the next and hanging out with a friend. I ran some errands and cleaned up around the house. No more moping around on the couch for this guy.
Gardening. I've cleaned up some garden beds but just need to wait for the last cold spell to wrap up then I'll get into it with a vegetable garden and also some flowers for some other flower beds.
She is rewriting history to make herself seem more innocent (talking as if we were basically divorced at the time of the PA) or noble (talking like she ended the affair because it was hurting people).
That she's able to twist things and, I think, genuinely believe them is kind of scary. I really question her mental state with how she talks and what she's done. And I don't know if she has the capability of putting in the hard work a R takes. I'm seeing now how self-centered and selfish she's always been.
I'm sure you probably realize this but people rewrite history in order to protect themselves. No one likes to feel like the bad guy, people in general have a limited willingness to sit around and think about their faults. It's much easier to find a way to make it someone else's fault. It's easier to sleep at night. To some degree its self-preservation.
If you mangle your leg, you walk with a limp. She's mangled her integrity and rewriting history is her limp. Deep down she knows she's doing it. You don't have to worry about her mental state. Working hard to convince herself of her BS is necessary for her to look at herself in the mirror. If she dreams up justifications but doesn't believe in them she's not being very self-serving.
Regarding being self-centered and selfish, that's just insecurity right? That's fear of being inadequate, it's the same type of compensating behavior as the re-writing history, just expressed differently.
Glad to see you're getting out and spending time with friends and family, more of that!
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Yes, I definitely realize this. It's still just astounding the level of revising she's done and that I can tell she genuinely believes it. She was emphatically, even compassionately, explaining things in this way. A way that makes her less guilty.
Sometimes it just feels like she's really taking it to an extreme and it makes me wonder if it's a sign of some deeper issue but it's reassuring to hear that it's most likely a symptom of the situation.
She is in therapy and knows she has lots of issues to work on. Hopefully she does and maybe her path leads her back to me. I'm just not going to sit around waiting or expecting it.
I think I'm just having an angry day. I'm mad that people can not set appropriate boundaries when dealing with members of the opposite sex. Mad that they allow themselves to get sucked into the euphoria of an affair. That they think it's real and will last forever. That they lie, manipulate, deceive and shun all their values in order to continue the affair. It's so ridiculous.
To just turn your life upside down because someone pays attention to you. All of the delusions and anger that come out. Rewriting history on a marriage. Not caring about the pain that is caused for so many because you just care about what you want and nothing else.
Then the LBS has to walk on eggshells and form strategies and plans to try to win back a person who has hurt them so deeply without, at least at the time, any remorse whatsoever. That we have to look for subtle meaning in a text message, or an email, or something said in passing for some kind of sign that our former loving spouses haven't turned into a totally heartless stranger.
form strategies and plans to try to win back a person who has hurt them so deeply without, at least at the time, any remorse whatsoever.
What is perplexing is why someone would want to do that in the first place.
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
Then the LBS has to walk on eggshells and form strategies and plans to try to win back a person who has hurt them so deeply without, at least at the time, any remorse whatsoever. That we have to look for subtle meaning in a text message, or an email, or something said in passing for some kind of sign that our former loving spouses haven't turned into a totally heartless stranger.
The thing is you don't *have* to do any of that. In fact you shouldn't. That's the key.
Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.
You are right that it [censored], and I'm glad you're angry about it, that's part of processing all of this. Allow yourself to feel all of it and don't worry about it for a minute.
Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.
I read somewhere that for people in a relationship to characterize it as "happy", positive interactions need to outweigh negative ones by a ratio of 7:1. For every one time you come away from an exchange annoyed, you have to come away from seven others feeling good. That's a pretty difficult thing to achieve for most people. If you're shy of that, the resentment snowball is growing.
An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.
For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow.
Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.
That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting W back will restore these things, but it won't.
So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Gardening. I've cleaned up some garden beds but just need to wait for the last cold spell to wrap up then I'll get into it with a vegetable garden and also some flowers for some other flower beds.
Now, how can we turn that into GAL?
A club or organisation?
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting W back will restore these things, but it won't.
So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?
I am having a hard time separating the two. I really think I want both. We all desire control over our lives. That's natural. I desire the person, too. But then it's complicated because I desire the person who would never hurt or betray me. I'd have an unstoppable motivation to improve the MR for that person. Right now I really don't have that motivation for the cold-hearted person she's become. And motivation has never been her thing so I can't imagine her putting in the hard work of chipping away at the damage to where I'd really want to put in the work too.
I had a good weekend. Kept my time occupied so I wasn't stuck alone in the house too much. Dinner with my family, hung out with a friend. Did a lot of shopping. I bought a new shower curtain, towels and rugs for the guest bathroom. Made it my own. Spent some time looking for new curtains for the living room but haven't found anything I like yet. Did some work outside getting the garden beds ready for planting.
My W did text me Saturday night about doing the taxes, wanting me to send her my documents. I ignored it. Early Sunday morning she texted asking if I got the text. Guess she's not used to me not being responsive. A few hours later when I got home I texted and asked what she was wanting me to do. She said to send her all my documents. I asked how I was supposed to do that and she said email so I pointed out the obvious that they're hard copies. She asked if I could scan them at work and I told her no. She said she'd login and enter her stuff and then I could login and do mine, which is what she had discussed 2 weeks ago when she was at the house. I didn't respond because I didn't think a response was necessary. 2 hours later she asked if that would work. Couple hours after that I told her she could do whatever she wanted. She asked if that upset me and I ignored it.
I know tax stuff is important but there is still plenty of time and I'm not going to indulge her in any form of cake eating. I almost got the impression she was wanting me to invite her over to work on it together. If she can't even come out and say that then there's really no hope for her to be honest and put in the hard work on a R.
I saw an analogy I like: There's no such thing as a dirty room where only half of it needs to be cleaned.
With her telling me 2 weeks ago that I was a "terrible husband" and she was a "good wife", I find that saying very applicable. I'm sure if I asked her in what ways she was a good wife she'd talk about how she cooked, cleaned, did laundry. That makes her a good housekeeper, not a good wife. The fact I can discuss with her my shortcomings that left the MR vulnerable to HER affair while she offers up nothing aside from "I'm sorry I hurt you, I should have just left" and rewriting history speaks volumes about her.
She really needs to learn to see she's not perfect and can't blame all of her problems on other people if there's to be any hope at all, for us or for herself.
An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.
In a way. Affairs aren't spur of the moment, that is unless she is a ho... They are well-thought out and planned. Maybe it start quick, maybe not. Maybe she sees someone she's attracted to...whatever, its not an overnight decision.
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
Then the LBS has to walk on eggshells and form strategies and plans to try to win back a person who has hurt them so deeply without, at least at the time, any remorse whatsoever. That we have to look for subtle meaning in a text message, or an email, or something said in passing for some kind of sign that our former loving spouses haven't turned into a totally heartless stranger.
The thing is you don't *have* to do any of that. In fact you shouldn't. That's the key.
Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.
You are right that it [censored], and I'm glad you're angry about it, that's part of processing all of this. Allow yourself to feel all of it and don't worry about it for a minute.
Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.
I read somewhere that for people in a relationship to characterize it as "happy", positive interactions need to outweigh negative ones by a ratio of 7:1. For every one time you come away from an exchange annoyed, you have to come away from seven others feeling good. That's a pretty difficult thing to achieve for most people. If you're shy of that, the resentment snowball is growing.
An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.
For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow.
Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.
That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting W back will restore these things, but it won't.
So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?
Acc
^^^Wisdom! Wow, describes my situation exactly.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I desire the person, too. But then it's complicated because I desire the person who would never hurt or betray me.
Often times we love people for who we want them to be versus who they are
Originally Posted By: brizz
I'd have an unstoppable motivation to improve the MR for that person. Right now I really don't have that motivation for the cold-hearted person she's become. And motivation has never been her thing so I can't imagine her putting in the hard work of chipping away at the damage to where I'd really want to put in the work too.
You're right. If you "pursue her back" she won't have any motivation to do anything because she'll be there begrudgingly, or to do you a favor, or because she didn't have a better option, and there is no motivation in that.
Often we think that the wayward spouse returning is the finish line and from there everything gets better.
Realistically if she came back tomorrow it would kick off a cycle of you being suspicious of what she was doing every minute you're not with her, seeking an apology or admission of wrongdoing which you wouldn't get, and then slowly building anger within you about the whole mess you endured -- not a very romantic place to rekindle a romance.
If you get back together, you need to come back together as equals, which means that she wants you at least as much as you want her, and you each see each other as the best option.
How do you do that? You have to be happy and fulfilled on your own first. No one can love you if you don't love yourself first right? Sounds simple but that's what it comes down to. The shortest path back is beeline in the opposite direction.
Originally Posted By: brizz
I almost got the impression she was wanting me to invite her over to work on it together. If she can't even come out and say that then there's really no hope for her to be honest and put in the hard work on a R.
Danger, don't drink the poison water. Don't read into what she secretly wants but isn't telling you, you're just torturing yourself with that. I know it's incredibly difficult to know how to act around her right now.
The best thing you can do is the "friendly coworker standard" -- how would you treat a coworker you are friendly with but who is not a friend of yours? You'd be civil and polite, but you wouldn't go out of your way to do them any favors, and you certainly wouldn't share anything personal or intimate in terms of how you're feeling.
Visualize her as someone from the office who you kind of know but aren't friends with. You wouldn't be rude, but you wouldn't be overly accommodating either, just accommodating enough to be genuinely polite.
Question for you brizz -- how do you think she'll feel if you are polite but indifferent to her?
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I've done very well with detaching and not pursuing. Not texting her, not responding to any texts from her if I don't have to, being short and ambivalent when I do respond, not taking any bait by her to get me to pursue.
I've done OK with being indifferent the times she's been by the house recently. But I need to be better. It's so easy to get sucked in and suddenly find myself talking about how I feel. I think I'll be better the next time. I really just need to keep the "friendly coworker" idea in my head the whole time, pause before I speak, and not let her pull me into any relationship conversation or at the very least just give short, indifferent responses to what she says and not get emotional. It's getting easier because the conversations we have had, she still bashes me, still rewrites history, and still refutes any opinions or feelings I discuss as if they're facts she has disproven. Not hard to remove motivation to have those types of conversations.
If I was polite and completely indifferent to her, which is my goal, she'd probably think I moved on and am in a better place. Maybe that I'm more mysterious. That she doesn't matter as much and I've got other things going on in my life that she isn't part of. And also maybe guilty about how she's treated me.
I've done very well with detaching and not pursuing.
Please be careful as these are two VERY different things. And they are both very important!
Could you elaborate? I see detaching as not letting my thoughts or wants regarding my W impact what I do. That I'll be OK no matter what happens. Just focus on myself, my life, what I want to do, and whatever happens regarding her will sort itself out. I can't control it.
Not pursuing I see as not reaching out. Going dark, basically. Regarding the taxes I could have offered her to come over to the house to do them together like I had mentioned a couple weeks ago, but I didn't. And when she does next come to the house, no talks on R or the MR or anything of the sort. Really just nothing from me at all except friendly courtesy. Our anniversary is next week -- not planning on acknowledging it with her.
You mainly have it right -- detachment is an emotional state where whatever your WAS does evokes no emotional reaction from you any more than a complete stranger would.
Not pursuing is just that -- resisting the urge to engage. Not pursuing is in many ways "fake it until you make it" as you're training yourself to get to the point of detachment and you're trying to give the impression of actually being detached to take pressure and focus off your WAS.
IMO another difference is that you can will yourself not to pursue but you can't really will yourself to detach, that just happens over time.
I look at it this way -- if a person who lived down the street bought an unremarkable used car, you'd be detached -- you don't know them, you don't care about the car and you weren't involved in the transaction.
If, on the other hand you watched the transaction through binoculars, stayed up all night wondering why they chose that specific car and who they bought it from, then spent the next day convincing yourself they bought it to make you feel bad about your own car, but you resisted confronting them about it, that would be "not pursuing" if you see the difference there.
Another key difference is that a WAS typically sees through "not pursuing" and doesn't trust it. When you detach they know and in many cases it freaks them out.
I remember the moment I realized I was detached. If XW rode through town on a horse naked, had sex on my front lawn, or got abducted by aliens it just pretty much wouldn't register. She became "someone I happen to know" versus someone who occupies any of my thoughts unless they're standing right in front of me.
Keep working on non-pursuit, be polite and happy when you interact with her, and live your own life to the fullest. Go out and do and be.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
W texted saying she was thinking about taking the dog for a night and asking if this weekend would work. I don't want this at all. I will not be giving up the dog in a D or even doing shared custody and the sooner she realizes that the better. Don't want any precedent established on this. Plus I resent that while her affair was still going on she couldn't care less about seeing the dog.
I'm thinking of waiting a while before just replying, "I don't think that's a good idea." and ignoring the inevitable "Why not?" response from her as well as anything else she'd say on it. But are there any better ideas?
Well I think you need to examine your motivations -- do you not want her to have the dog because you're trying to punish her? I don't think any type of precedent is going to matter in a divorce proceeding regarding the dog, that's just something that would need to be negotiated along with everything else. Was it your dog prior to getting together, or did you get the dog together?
To your point rather than saying "I don't think that's a good idea" which invites a question, you could say "I'm not comfortable with that right now" which is more definitive and let it go at that. I would do a bit of soul-searching first however.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
No, not to punish her at all. But I've been the one taking care of the dog for 3 months now when she had no interest in even seeing her -- I pretty much consider her MY dog now, not ours. I want my dog to stay in her home and not be taken off to wherever my W is staying. It just isn't worth it. I also want to establish that I'm going to keep the dog and I'm not interested in any shared custody. It wouldn't be healthy for the dog to be shuttled about or for myself to continue having W in my life if we get divorced. We got the dog together. I knew the dog could potentially be the one "big" issue in a divorce but I didn't anticipate it becoming an issue already like this...
Well it can be a real concern -- most states treat pets as "personal property" but more recently some states have awarded joint custody, visitation, and even alimony regarding the custody of pets. I believe only Alaska takes into account the well being of the pet. How it's handled will depend on your state, so if this is a leading concern for you then I highly recommend you do a consultation with a lawyer about what you're trying to achieve and what you should do in the near term.
Generally, people have all kinds of preconceived notions about what they're entitled to going into a divorce, but most of that is based on emotion or what they've heard from other people instead of actual fact. Both my lawyer and my sister's lawyer said that the vast majority of people pretty much land in the same place, the only thing that varies is how much money they burn on the way there with their fighting. You're much better served if you can work something out between the two of you and just have the court rubber stamp it.
No need to fight that battle today however. Talk to a laywer, most will give you a free consultation. Getting educated is always a good thing.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
brizz, I am sorry to hear of your wife's behavior. I don't understand how someone can have an affair and then try to justify it. there isn't and will never be justification. While I am 99% sure my H has not had extra-marital activities going on, there is always that hint of wonder, if he is as unhappy as he says he has been.
I too garden, it's my passion and I have seedlings under the grow light inside. I had bought lumber to start making my raise beds, and then my H drops the bomb on me last week. So, now I don't even know if I should build my beds and put any effort into it, because if he does decide its over, I will not be able to keep the house.
brizz, I am sorry to hear of your wife's behavior. I don't understand how someone can have an affair and then try to justify it. there isn't and will never be justification. While I am 99% sure my H has not had extra-marital activities going on, there is always that hint of wonder, if he is as unhappy as he says he has been.
I too garden, it's my passion and I have seedlings under the grow light inside. I had bought lumber to start making my raise beds, and then my H drops the bomb on me last week. So, now I don't even know if I should build my beds and put any effort into it, because if he does decide its over, I will not be able to keep the house.
I'm not sure what will happen with my house either if my W decides to put up a fight or insist it be sold. But I still went out yesterday and bought flowers and vegetables to plant. Do what you enjoy. Building some flower beds is a great GAL activity and will get your mind off of things.
Some minor updates. Our anniversary came and went with no communication from the W. This past Friday evening she texted saying she wanted to come see "my dog" Saturday. I had plans so I told her as much. She replied she could just take the dog for the day. I ignored the text.
Saturday morning she texted saying I was going to have to let her see the dog. I figured between shooting down the idea the previous weekend of her taking the dog for a night and this recent case where I was busy that she would leap to a conclusion that I was barring her from seeing the dog and I was right. Just how her mind works. I responded saying I had plans and I don't have to cancel them just to accommodate her last minute requests to see "my dog" (figured I'd throw in the word "my" just like she had). She replied and said she wasn't asking me to cancel my plans but she wasn't just my dog. Guess only she's allowed to say the dog is her's.
She then sent a couple of other texts regarding taxes that were unnecessary since he already made a plan for handling that. I ignored them. OM's W contacted me for the first time in a while last night to say that my W had texted him Friday evening "You can keep your apology". Not sure what that's about. They were at a couple's retreat working on their MR so it wasn't a welcome distraction.
For myself, I'm continuing seeing my IC and working on GAL. Been doing projects around the house to keep myself busy. Painting, gardening, getting rid of stuff that's been collecting dust for too long. Going to be picking up my old bicycle from my parent's soon and start bicycling.
