Newbie, need help with WAW! (Thread 2)

[180Man]

Previous thread here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2732834&page=1

Quick backstory:

Together 7.5 years, married 5.5 years. No kids. Raised a dog together as our child. Both very busy working professionals. She cheated on me last summer, it happened twice. It's over. I found out in the beginning of December, she sent a no-contact letter shortly thereafter. She was extremely remorseful. We went through 6 weeks of counseling with a crappy counselor who pushed my wife to make a decision about committing to working through marriage therapy or not. Between work, her family, and me, it was too much pressure for her. In counseling I tried to be as understanding as possible, but outside of counseling we emailed quite a bit and I was doing all of the wrong things (see Sandi's rules). She came to our last counseling session (mid-January) and said she wanted a divorce and gave me a letter saying as much. She has said multiple times since then that she would answer any questions I have about it. Her mom's side of the family was furious at her about it. Dad's side of the family has been very passive. Mom's husband couldn't sleep over it, two weeks later he had a stroke. I went to help mom for a week since none of her other children were able to, including my wife. When I came home, my wife had moved all of her things out of the house. I sent her an email the next day telling her she was running away from this, that she was afraid and avoiding it, that a marriage is hard work and we haven't even come close to really working on things. That email was a month ago. Since then I have pretty much gone no-contact. I've been trying to GAL, going to the gym every day, spending time with friends, trying to get back into old hobbies, etc. Two weeks after I emailed her, she replied and asked if I would be willing to meet her for coffee.


Coffee:

Tonight I went to meet my wife for coffee. I wore new clothes that I had bought (she had joked to the counselor that she had bought all of my clothes), got a nice haircut, showed up happy and looking confident. We walked up to the front door at the same time and she reached out to give me a one arm hug. I reciprocated with only one arm. We got our coffees and sat down in the back. She asked me how I had been, I said "Great, you?" She explained how busy work was and I commented about how stressful all the things they're doing must be right now. She asked what I've been up to lately, I said "Work, traveling a little bit, and trying to stay busy. You?" And she responded basically about how she had been working 60 hour weeks and was exhausted.

Then there was an awkward silence for several moments. I decided I wasn't going to say anything since I came here to hear her out. She finally asked if I wanted to talk about the email chain between us. I asked which one, and she clarified the most recent one which I referred to above in my quick backstory. Of course I knew this since it's the only email between us recently. I said I came to hear what she had to say and she said she didn't feel like there was much to discuss and that she didn't want to hash out all of the details again.

I'm going to write the rest of what I can remember...it probably won't be exactly in the correct order, but I'm not sure it matters. I just want to get it down while I still remember it:

Her: I want to talk about going through mediation. I want this to be amicable and not tear each other apart. I don't want to send someone to serve you at the house.
Me: I don't believe divorce is the solutions to our problems, but if that's the path you choose I'll let you go because I love and respect you

Her: I want us to be able to be friends after this
Me: No thank you
Her: (expressed disappointment)

It felt like pulling teeth trying to get her to tell me how she FELT. How can you validate someone if they put a huge wall up in front of their feelings? I was able to prod her a little bit to tell me why she wanted a divorce...

Her: I feel like we've grown apart over the years, that we've been great friends but fell short as lovers.
Me: I'm sorry you felt unloved and disconnected from me, I never stopped loving you and I guess I wasn't able to express myself very well to you. Can you give me an example of when you first started to feel like this?

Her: (At first she started to resist giving an example because she didn't want to get into the weeds, but eventually offered this...) When we first started dating you would bring me lilies all the time but I told you I was allergic to them and you kept bringing them to me anyways because [i]you liked them. You only stopped bringing my lilies when I really came down and told you I was allergic and it was a problem for me.[/i]
Me: (thinking to myself: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? fml....anyways, I don't remember my response exactly to this, but I tried to validate the best I could. I think I said something like I'm sorry that must have been very difficult or something, I don't remember)

Her: You're very successful and good looking and you're not going to have a problem finding someone else.
Me: No, I don't think I will, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

Her: You look like you've been working out, you look very good.
Me: You look very good too
Her: No, I've been working 60 hours a week, I'm a mess (she was still in her work clothes)

Her: I still care about you and still love you, but I just don't feel romantic toward you and that feeling just hasn't changed.
Me: (don't remember what I said)

I don't really remember too much else word for word. It wasn't very long, maybe 20 or 25 minutes. It was really hard to get her to open up and I felt like it was really hard to validate someone who didn't want to talk about the issues. I was not really prepared for that aspect. I felt immediately like she is SET on going through with the divorce, come hell or high water. I felt like there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Toward the ends she asked this:

Her: So what are you going to do?
Me: Well, I'm going to go home, think about things, get up and go to work...you know

I forget what else we said, really. There wasn't too much else.

At the end I told her: I'm going to think about things, I think we had a crappy counselor and that marriage deserves more work than this. I'll see you later.



I feel like I did a mediocre job at validation, that it wouldn't have mattered what the hell I said good or bad, that she's set on divorce. I feel like she is so wrapped up in work that she hasn't even had time to really miss me or question actions/decisions.

I called my best friend right afterwards and relayed to him what had happened, he said it sounded like it had gone to plan, that I had validated as much as I could and that we knew going into this that she wasn't going to be receptive or be open to anything.

It feels hopeless. I can continue the last resort technique, but I don't think she gives a damn. I have DB coaching tomorrow afternoon, that's about it. I really don't know what to do next. Ambien is kicking is, so it's time to post!!

[180Man]

----Just little tidbits I thought I'd add after postign----

I should add that she seemed surprised when i didn't have any questions. But I sort of did have a question....like...how were you feeling? Which she had walled off with zero desire to talk about them,

And the lilies thing was basically just to point out that I don't listen to her.

She also said that there's someone out there who's right for me and someone who's right for her.

[MoveFrwd]

It feels hopeless. I can continue the last resort technique, but I don't think she gives a damn. I have DB coaching tomorrow afternoon, that's about it. I really don't know what to do next.

Heres my thought. Im sorry that youre feeling hopeless. It would be unlikely for her to set a coffee date several days or weeks in the future with a plan to reconcile. Honestly, it seems like shes not really in much of a rush to do anything. I would say to look at this for what it was: an opportunity to be the 180Man and no more. In that sense, it looked like you did well. You went to yesterdays meeting down 7 in the bottom of the ninth with nobody on base. Single, Walk, Home run, it doesnt really matter. The rally just gets going by getting men on base.

As for next? Go back to what you were doing. Continue to work on the things you need to work on. Continue to GAL. Continue being dark.

[180Man]

Heres my thought. Im sorry that youre feeling hopeless. It would be unlikely for her to set a coffee date several days or weeks in the future with a plan to reconcile. Honestly, it seems like shes not really in much of a rush to do anything. I would say to look at this for what it was: an opportunity to be the 180Man and no more. In that sense, it looked like you did well. You went to yesterdays meeting down 7 in the bottom of the ninth with nobody on base. Single, Walk, Home run, it doesnt really matter. The rally just gets going by getting men on base.

As for next? Go back to what you were doing. Continue to work on the things you need to work on. Continue to GAL. Continue being dark.

Okay, thanks for your encouragement. You're right, nothing was going to change over a coffee date and I knew that going into it. But I also got a strong sense that she is determined to follow through with what she has decided.

Consequently, I didn't sleep very well at all (sorry about the typos above). I will continue to GAL and stay dark. I have a meeting with my DB coach this afternoon. She mentioned last time about discussing a last resort apology letter and that we would talk about it today. I haven't seen much on here about that?

Thanks again for your help.

[180Man]

Someone suggested to me that I ask her for 3, or perhaps 5, dates. In other words, give me 3 or 5 dates with an open mind and if at the end you're still in doubt, I'll give you a divorce. While this sounds enticing up front, I'm assuming this is a really dumb idea?

[Gordie]

180Man,

The good:

*She initiated contact with you to have coffee.
*She said you looked good.
*She opened up a little and told you some things you didn't know.
*She says she still loves you and cares about you.
*She says she still wants to be your friend.
*You looked good and were positive.
*You validated as best you could.

The bad:

*She is set on D.
*She doesn't have any romantic feelings towards you.
*When she asked what you have been up to lately, you didn't really open up to her at all (your response was generic and didn't include anything about how you are feeling)...so I'm not surprised she didn't open up to you either.

The ugly:

*The story about the lilies. My W has given me stories like this. Small things from literally 10+ years ago that I have no recollection of that have been bothering her for YEARS. Did your W stuff her feelings? Did she avoid conflict? If so, she has 1000+ stories that she hasn't told you. I know this stuff comes across as petty and why are we getting D if this is all there is, but I think you've got to search your soul to determine if there are any nuggets of truth (not listening or valuing your W's opinions or paying attention to the details of her life or giving her gifts that make YOU feel good) that you can acknowledge about yourself. If there's truth there, then it is best for you and your W and your R for you to acknowledge it and, where appropriate, apologize and be the 180Man who can change his ways. This is hard work but all in your power. Practice on family, friends, neighbors. In my case, I am a prideful man, so I know that I'm slow to acknowledge the errors of my ways (I usually think I'm right) and that it takes time for me to get to a place where I am really remorseful. It's not a situation where she says XYZ and I say I'm sorry and it's over. It's one where she says XYZ...and then it takes me weeks or months for it to really sink in...and when I finally get how much it really hurt her, only then does my remorse/apology mean anything to her. There's been a lot of this for me over the past few months and it's definitely helped to heal some old wounds between us.

[doodler]

Someone suggested to me that I ask her for 3, or perhaps 5, dates. In other words, give me 3 or 5 dates with an open mind and if at the end you're still in doubt, I'll give you a divorce. While this sounds enticing up front, I'm assuming this is a really dumb idea?

180Man,

Yes, I think it's a really bad idea. If she wants to divorce you, 3 or 5 or 15 dates won't change anything. And, that's full-on pursuit. Not good.

Find a really fun GAL activity that you enjoy and get your mind off of your marriage for a while. (I know, that's impossible. But I believe in you 180Man, you can do it.)

[Gordie]

It felt like pulling teeth trying to get her to tell me how she FELT.

One more suggestion for you on this front. I'm passing along advice that someone here gave me and it has been a HUGE help. Remember TED: tell me more...explain how...describe what...it takes you out of the conversation...and opens her up...

W: I've been working 60 hours a week. I'm a mess.
180Man: Tell me why work has been so busy OR tell me what you mean by a mess.

W: I want us to be friends after this.
180Man: Explain to me what you mean by friends.

W: We've fallen short as lovers.
180Man: Describe how we've fallen short.

These answers show that you are listening and you want to know MORE about how she is thinking/feeling. It also gets you off the hook of having to provide a response to everything she is saying. When she wants you to talk, she will ask you a question.

[sandi2]

Here's the thing about the coffee meeting. She was ready to announce her intentions to divorce. I don't think there was anything you could have said to change her mind during the meeting. So, don't worry about how well or poorly you rated. FWIW, I think you handled it well. Now what you may not know, is a lingering image of you was left in her mind.

She was not spewing bitter words, nor was she blaming you like others we've seen. The account of the flowers, IMHO, came from you applying a little pressure to give you some example. (B/C you wanted to validate her feelings?! Come on, you got completely off track by pressing her, and you were opening the gate for a possible emotional land side. Luckily, it didn't get too bad). She cannot give you one particular account that she can point to and say, "That is what caused our M to fail". It is the cumulation of things over time.

A wife explains to her H how his choice of flowers cause an allergy reaction. She loves the fact he wanted to give her flowers. Maybe she loves all types of flowers, but there is one type that makes her sick. After she shares this information with her H........he continues to buy the one type that makes her sick. In frustration, she wonders if he hears what she says, or does he even care that he is giving her the type that makes her sick. Why would that be difficult for a man to get it through his head, and next time order something she can enjoy? Then at some time later, that couple is at a coffee shop and he presses her to give him an example of when she her feelings started to change. So, she offers the example about the flowers. His immediate thought was: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? . No, that is not he reason, 180Man!

[180Man]

180Man,

The good:

*She initiated contact with you to have coffee.
*She said you looked good.
*She opened up a little and told you some things you didn't know.
*She says she still loves you and cares about you.
*She says she still wants to be your friend.
*You looked good and were positive.
*You validated as best you could.

The bad:

*She is set on D.
*She doesn't have any romantic feelings towards you.
*When she asked what you have been up to lately, you didn't really open up to her at all (your response was generic and didn't include anything about how you are feeling)...so I'm not surprised she didn't open up to you either.

The ugly:

*The story about the lilies. My W has given me stories like this. Small things from literally 10+ years ago that I have no recollection of that have been bothering her for YEARS. Did your W stuff her feelings? Did she avoid conflict? If so, she has 1000+ stories that she hasn't told you. I know this stuff comes across as petty and why are we getting D if this is all there is, but I think you've got to search your soul to determine if there are any nuggets of truth (not listening or valuing your W's opinions or paying attention to the details of her life or giving her gifts that make YOU feel good) that you can acknowledge about yourself. If there's truth there, then it is best for you and your W and your R for you to acknowledge it and, where appropriate, apologize and be the 180Man who can change his ways. This is hard work but all in your power. Practice on family, friends, neighbors. In my case, I am a prideful man, so I know that I'm slow to acknowledge the errors of my ways (I usually think I'm right) and that it takes time for me to get to a place where I am really remorseful. It's not a situation where she says XYZ and I say I'm sorry and it's over. It's one where she says XYZ...and then it takes me weeks or months for it to really sink in...and when I finally get how much it really hurt her, only then does my remorse/apology mean anything to her. There's been a lot of this for me over the past few months and it's definitely helped to heal some old wounds between us.

It felt like pulling teeth trying to get her to tell me how she FELT.

One more suggestion for you on this front. I'm passing along advice that someone here gave me and it has been a HUGE help. Remember TED: tell me more...explain how...describe what...it takes you out of the conversation...and opens her up...

W: I've been working 60 hours a week. I'm a mess.
180Man: Tell me why work has been so busy OR tell me what you mean by a mess.

W: I want us to be friends after this.
180Man: Explain to me what you mean by friends.

W: We've fallen short as lovers.
180Man: Describe how we've fallen short.

These answers show that you are listening and you want to know MORE about how she is thinking/feeling. It also gets you off the hook of having to provide a response to everything she is saying. When she wants you to talk, she will ask you a question.

Gordie,

Thanks for your responses and helping me to sort through what happened last night. Listing the Good, Bad, and Ugly like that really helped me. Pointing out the good is helpful because those are things I feel I'm overlooking too easily, so it's a good reminder. On the bad, I'm not sure what to do about her wanting D or absence of romantic feelings. LRT is all I can really come up with. As for not opening up to her, I was advised in my last thread to be vague about what I've been doing and let her wonder what I've been up to. But I completely see your point of opening up a little on my end in order to get her to open up a little. Kind of confused a little on this point for next time, if there ever is one. That TED tip is great! Where were you last week?? hah, I will be sure to remember this one.

Thanks for your help and insight.

180Man,

Yes, I think it's a really bad idea. If she wants to divorce you, 3 or 5 or 15 dates won't change anything. And, that's full-on pursuit. Not good.

Find a really fun GAL activity that you enjoy and get your mind off of your marriage for a while. (I know, that's impossible. But I believe in you 180Man, you can do it.)

Yes, you're right. Terrible idea. You're right about the GAL activity. I need to figure out what, though. Open to ideas?!

Here's the thing about the coffee meeting. She was ready to announce her intentions to divorce. I don't think there was anything you could have said to change her mind during the meeting. So, don't worry about how well or poorly you rated. FWIW, I think you handled it well. Now what you may not know, is a lingering image of you was left in her mind.

What would this lingering image be? Good, bad, neither? What does the lingering image do?

She was not spewing bitter words, nor was she blaming you like others we've seen. The account of the flowers, IMHO, came from you applying a little pressure to give you some example. (B/C you wanted to validate her feelings?! Come on, you got completely off track by pressing her, and you were opening the gate for a possible emotional land side. Luckily, it didn't get too bad). She cannot give you one particular account that she can point to and say, "That is what caused our M to fail". It is the cumulation of things over time.

A wife explains to her H how his choice of flowers cause an allergy reaction. She loves the fact he wanted to give her flowers. Maybe she loves all types of flowers, but there is one type that makes her sick. After she shares this information with her H........he continues to buy the one type that makes her sick. In frustration, she wonders if he hears what she says, or does he even care that he is giving her the type that makes her sick. Why would that be difficult for a man to get it through his head, and next time order something she can enjoy? Then at some time later, that couple is at a coffee shop and he presses her to give him an example of when she her feelings started to change. So, she offers the example about the flowers. His immediate thought was: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? . No, that is not he reason, 180Man!

Yeah, I see this now. I didn't understand it immediately when she said it, but she added that in the past she didn't think I heard her sometimes or that I didn't always care what she wanted, even if my intentions were good. This is something I needed to hear. I always thought of myself as devoted to her, but I can see instances where I did what I wanted and thought I was doing it for her.

I hate that I allowed her to feel distant enough to feel the way she felt for this to happen. I hate that I allowed her to feel distant enough to feel the way she feels now. I wish we could divorce our situation together and start fresh.

[KevinIn]

I hate that I allowed her to feel distant enough to feel the way she felt for this to happen. I hate that I allowed her to feel distant enough to feel the way she feels now. I wish we could divorce our situation together and start fresh.

Many of us are in the same situation. But, we can't hate ourselves - they are the ones who made the decisions to abandon their marriages.

[180Man]

I just spent the last two hours on the phone, first with my DB coach and then my best friend. I'll start with the latter.


I've talked to him every day throughout this process and after listening to me last night immediately after talking to my W, he thinks that perhaps she isn't exaggerating some of our problems. He agrees that I don't listen. This really hit home for me. I mean, I heard the words my wife said last night but I don't think I understood that part of it until later when I got home and wrote this post. And then I heard my DB coach say the same thing: that I missed an opportunity to validate her with the lilies, that she was telling me I don't listen and I wasn't listening! And then it all really came to a head when my friend said it as well.

I see the way my friend talks to his wife sometimes and I think...wow, don't get so frustrated with her man, I would never talk to my wife that way. And then to have the same friend open your eyes to the idea that maybe I did fùck up my marriage. Maybe I did cause the death of a thousand cuts. And to realize he's right, that my wife is right, that she has been trying to tell me things all along and I just haven't been on receive...It's an extremely painful realization.

I thought I was the most devoted and caring husband ever, and now I realize that was only in my own mind. Maybe sometimes it was true on the outside, but often times I was just telling myself that. And I was really hurting my wife.

And he pointed out that even though I tell her the words "I don't believe divorce is the answer to our problems, but if that's the path you choose I'll let you go because I love and respect you," I don't believe them because I'm too selfish to actually let her go.

I love her more than anything. And I respect her tremendously. Is it selfish to want to keep my marriage together, to see my wife come home at night and spend time with her, to cook dinner together, to wake up late on the weekends, play video games, explore our city together, and to experience life together?

But if I haven't been listening to her, maybe I don't respect her...?

My DB coach has recommended that I send her an apology letter owning up to the things that I've screwed up over the years, the things that my wife has been upset about. Owning them, apologizing, and nothing more. No excuses, no reasoning, and certainly no pleading. I asked her if this conflicted with the LRT and she said no, that not everything is so black and white and that you have to maintain some sort of communication. But she also said time is my best ally.

All of this makes me feel like shít on top of already feeling like shít. I don't even want to go to the gym. I want to drop my dog off at my mom's and drive off a cliff. But...I'm going to get up now and feed the dog...and then I'm going to force myself to go to the gym.

You know how they say in prison that all of the inmates claim to be innocent? What if...this is our little prison here and we all believe we're innocent. Except......I'm not.

[Deckard]

180,

This is great that you are realizing that you have some things to work on. Not for her, but to be a better 180.

Still, don't beat yourself up too much. You are responsible for your 50%. It wasn't 100% 180 that caused this situation.

Regardless of the outcome, you will be okay.

[LITB]

180,

I can assure you that it is not all of your fault. Own the parts that ring true and work to improve those areas.

FWIW, a lot of people have poor listening skills. Not only that, men and women communicate differently. Work on your listening skills. You can practice them in your day to day interactions with coworkers, friends and family.

Good job on going to the gym when you didn't feel like it. You must stay active to help get you through this. One step at a time.

[180Man]

Thanks for your replies last night. They were helpful. LITB -- I noticed when I refreshed the page this morning that you changed your signature. When I saw it yesterday I was kind of blown away and it gave me some hope. Regardless of what caused you to change it, I wanted to let you know that it was inspiring. I wonder in my situation if not having kids is going to make it harder for any type of future connection down the road. When I was still in contact with my MIL, she told me to ask my W for alimony for the dog. Seems petty...but on the other hand, she's at day care today since I have a long day. It definitely ain't free!

Gym last night was okay. I wasn't really feeling it and didn't push myself, but I guess it was better than driving off a cliff. W sent me an email just as I was finishing up. She thanked me for coming to coffee and listening to her. She asked if we could keep a line of communication open between us, reiterated that she wanted to keep things amicable, and said she'd like to start looking for a mediator.

I am working on a draft of an apology email right now per my DB coach's advice. Does anyone have any recommended threads or websites I should look at related to apology letters? DB coach also said I should try to write it in my W's love language -- not sure how that works with "acts of service." I haven't finished the book yet, but I'd love some suggestions on how to do this? I think at the end of the letter I will reiterate my desire to let her go if divorce really is what she wants, but also ask her for some space for the time being. I am definitely not ready to sit down and do that right now, it has only been 3 months since I found out.

[LITB]

Hey 180,

Yeah, I just felt it was time to change my signature. Really no reason.

Is the dog causing you a significant financial burden? I wouldn't suggest asking for alimony. It is petty and will not accomplish anything.

As for the apology letter, I don't have any suggestions. My DB coach had me write one too. I owned my part and more, because I felt that it was all of my fault at the time. I was dealing with the LBS fog of fear.

I did hope that the letter would be my magic bullet. It wasn't. As you read in my signature before I changed it, my timeline was 3-1/2 years from first BD to second recon. It takes time, patience and work. Honestly, it took me 13 months to fully detach and let go.

Time is your friend. Make the most of it.

[180Man]

I don't think it will be a magic bullet, but I think there may have been a small change in her attitude after the coffee meeting. I'm not completely sure. I think the apology letter may help slightly, but I have no doubts that she is completely set on what she is doing and why. It makes me very sad, but I am doing what I can do.

[LITB]

I understand completely. I was reading back through BluWave's threads. She documents her journey well. I suggest you read through it. Perhaps you will come away with a different perspective. At the very least, you might find it helpful.

[sandi2]

Have no expectations.

[25yearsmlc]

Here's the thing about the coffee meeting. She was ready to announce her intentions to divorce. I don't think there was anything you could have said to change her mind during the meeting. So, don't worry about how well or poorly you rated. FWIW, I think you handled it well. Now what you may not know, is a lingering image of you was left in her mind.

She was not spewing bitter words, nor was she blaming you like others we've seen. The account of the flowers, IMHO, came from you applying a little pressure to give you some example. (B/C you wanted to validate her feelings?! Come on, you got completely off track by pressing her, and you were opening the gate for a possible emotional land side. Luckily, it didn't get too bad). She cannot give you one particular account that she can point to and say, "That is what caused our M to fail". It is the cumulation of things over time.

A wife explains to her H how his choice of flowers cause an allergy reaction. She loves the fact he wanted to give her flowers. Maybe she loves all types of flowers, but there is one type that makes her sick. After she shares this information with her H........he continues to buy the one type that makes her sick. In frustration, she wonders if he hears what she says, or does he even care that he is giving her the type that makes her sick. Why would that be difficult for a man to get it through his head, and next time order something she can enjoy? Then at some time later, that couple is at a coffee shop and he presses her to give him an example of when she her feelings started to change. So, she offers the example about the flowers. His immediate thought was: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? . No, that is not he reason, 180Man!

What she said^^^...

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for your replies last night. They were helpful. - I wonder in my situation if not having kids is going to make it harder for any type of future connection down the road.

No answers there, but I can say that it's a cheeseless tunnel to second guess now (unless it was your choice not to have any kids).

When I was still in contact with my MIL, she told me to ask my W for alimony for the dog. Seems petty...but on the other hand, she's at day care today since I have a long day. It definitely ain't free!

This^^ will NOT be an attractive request. It will be forever & badly remembered, and it's right after you made some 180s in the coffee time.

If the dog is important to both of you, then let her know if it gets sick. Not b/c you want her to pay the bill, but b/c she'll care.

Don't undermine the images you gave her that did contrast with the prior you.

Gym last night was okay. I wasn't really feeling it and didn't push myself, but I guess it was better than driving off a cliff. W sent me an email just as I was finishing up. She thanked me for coming to coffee and listening to her. She asked if we could keep a line of communication open between us, reiterated that she wanted to keep things amicable, and said she'd like to start looking for a mediator.
[color:#3366FF]
this^^ is not all bad. Keep some mystery going but make sure you allude to any GAL that is new or different for you. While GAL, you allow it to help you towards Detachment,

not attaching your behavior to recon with your wife, but to being the best YOU that you can be. [/color]

I am working on a draft of an apology email right now per my DB coach's advice. Does anyone have any recommended threads or websites I should look at related to apology letters?

IF you are going to do this, keep it short. I personally love the sentence "If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." But you must address some specific issues she has raised ('I'd never get you lilies again", as a small example).

Also, her comment about you two not really making it as lovers is significant to me. It's okay if you don't want to share about that here, but it's obviously very important to her. Whatever you think bothered her about your sex life (not enough, etc), needs to be touched on.

DB coach also said I should try to write it in my W's love language -- not sure how that works with "acts of service." I haven't finished the book yet, but I'd love some suggestions on how to do this?

If you cannot DO an act of service now, Mention an act of service you think would matter to her. A trip somewhere or fixing her car or building a bookcase you know she wants or painting the room she always wanted painted, etc.

ALSO the 5 LL book mentions that there are more than one for most of us. For example she may value acts of service AND words of affirmation...(my guess is that she has a hard time taking compliments with the "I'm a mess" retort to your comment about her looking good. But that's just my take about one brief interchange).

I think at the end of the letter I will reiterate my desire to let her go if divorce really is what she wants, but also ask her for some space for the time being.

2 thoughts come to mind when I read this^^ paragraph. First, the divorce is not yours to give, since it's granted by the state these days. So the letting go isn't relevant to a divorce. So I'd rephrase that.

And your very next sentence is the opposite of letting go...

I am definitely not ready to sit down and do that right now, it has only been 3 months since I found out.

3 months is a very short time. Of course you are still reeling. I'm so sorry.

So Maybe you can discreetly drag things out, and not be available to speed things up, rather than asking her to reflect on it. Ask your L about how to slow it down without making it obvious.

[180Man]

I understand completely. I was reading back through BluWave's threads. She documents her journey well. I suggest you read through it. Perhaps you will come away with a different perspective. At the very least, you might find it helpful.

Anyone reading this, here is the link to BlueWave's first thread. Only had time to get through page three tonight, but I'm tremendously intrigued! I really think I need to hear this and I can already tell BluWave is saying it in a way that clicks for me. Thank you for pointing me toward this, I don't think I would have found it otherwise.

Have no expectations.

Yes, thank you for reminding me Sandi, I need to hear this, I know it is great advice but I also think it is the hardest to follow. My best friend told me he thinks I had a "come to Jesus" moment last night. He thinks that before last night I was really not owning my part in this, I was saying the words but mostly coping by placing blame on her. He seems to think that he sees a difference in my understanding of the situation now that will significantly help me hear her. I hesitate to agree with his Jesus statement, though I do feel like I really have a better understanding of what she was trying to tell me about not listening to her through the years. I feel much less anxiety about the thought of sitting down with her again for coffee. I feel I could listen to her much better without worrying about scripting my validating responses beforehand.

3 months is a very short time. Of course you are still reeling. I'm so sorry.

So Maybe you can discreetly drag things out, and not be available to speed things up, rather than asking her to reflect on it. Ask your L about how to slow it down without making it obvious. [/color]

Yeah, I have a sentence toward the end of my draft apology letter telling her I need time and space to think and process. And I do, it's definitely not a bullshít ploy, I definitely do need some time. I think she is feeling some pressure in her timeline because she has to deploy in the summer and I presume wants to wrap this all up before then. I could care less what her timeline is, but I do understand it.

[180Man]

Just looking for some quick feedback. Went over my apology letter with my DB coach last night. She thought it was really good and heartfelt. She gave me a couple of minor changes but overall not too much. She was really on the fence about the very last line but left it to me to decide. She didn't know if pulling on a heartstring in this manner would be a good idea or not, I got the feeling she was leaning against it.

I need to become whole again for myself, but you will always have my heart.

Thoughts?

[MoveFrwd]

I need to become whole again for myself, but you will always have my heart.

Thoughts?

I hate using those absolutes like always and never. I would imagine there are things that she or you could do that would change this sentiment.

[25yearsmlc]

I need to become whole again for myself, but you will always have my heart.

Thoughts?

I hate using those absolutes like always and never. I would imagine there are things that she or you could do that would change this sentiment.

Here are a few ideas...

"I am becoming the man I was meant to be, and you will always have a place in my heart."

"I want to be my best self, and you've helped me realize that. Thank you."

"you've helped me realize what I need to work on to become the man I want to become. I'm grateful for that."

I'll ponder it more. I have to go read your overall purpose in this again.

Avoid redundancies as there is a need for brevity. Economy of words is powerful.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

What is your goal in writing this? Can you spell it out?

[Sotto]

I like 25's suggestions better. You will always have my heart reads as - I'll be sitting right here waiting for you - not what you want to convey.

You will always have a place in my heart honours the good times - but doesn't convey you'll be sitting there as plan B.

This is important I think

[180Man]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, that helped. I sent the letter/email Friday. In it I told her toward the end:

I am very sad to hear you speak about mediation. I’m sorry that you feel so hopeless about our relationship. I have told you that I love and respect you, but I have not shown you, and will let you go if that’s what you wish. I will. Everything has happened so fast, though. I need some space and time to think and process.

No reply from her two days later, which is fine. I'm doing my best to have no expectations, I suspect she is trying to respect my space right now based on the above statement. So I continue to GAL...Helping my friend build a shop on his property this weekend, going to an open mic night Tuesday... I'm working on it.

But what's next after an apology letter like this? Do I ask her to coffee in a month? Do I stay dark indefinitely? I wrote a very good letter and I suspect it will make her think a bit, but I know it's no silver bullet. It was necessary for both myself and her for me to acknowledge her feelings, acknowledge that I now understand I didn't listen to her often (despite thinking I was listening), and to acknowledge that by not listening to her I was not respecting her. This is good for both of us regardless of the outcome, but I do have the question of: what next? I am working on myself, I will continue to do so, but what's the path forward from here when it comes to my relationship with her? I know it's not some cookie cutter plan where I just follow steps A through Z, but I would like to hear feedback and ideas. My DB coach didn't really cover what's next beyond saying we should talk about some sort of "4 columns" thing in our next session.

Thanks everyone for your help and support, I still have moments throughout the day where I feel hopeless without my partner in life, but your support here has made a tremendous impact on my life, so I just wanted to say thank you.

[MoveFrwd]

The way I understand it from when I had DB coaching, this apology letter is a kind of "last resort letter". I don't think there is a 'next'. I'd say you GAL and continue to live your life working on your goals. I believe the ball is firmly in her court. Any pursuit from you invalidates your letter.

[180Man]

Yeah, you may be right. My DB coach clearly differentiated this apology letter from a last resort letter, though I feel they would be extremely similar. I guess GAL is enough of a plan for now. I miss her so much, this is so difficult.

[MoveFrwd]

You said this:

I have told you that I love and respect you, but I have not shown you, and will let you go if that’s what you wish.

How is asking her to coffee in a month 'letting her go'?

A month is your timeline...not hers.

In my opinion, for this to be a true 'apology' letter, than there is no next action. An apology is only that. An apology. If it were me, and it was, I would not mention it or try to 'build' on it. It was an apology, and if it was truly done for you, then you shouldnt have any expectations of anything 'coming of it'.

So, I would keep doing what you were doing.

[180Man]

Yeah, I don't disagree with you, I am going to continue doing what I've been doing, but I do feel there is some gray area...

On one end of the spectrum there is complete no-contact and doing my own thing. On the opposite end there is begging, pleading, etc. I'm nowhere near that opposite end and haven't been for a while now, however, my DB coach said last week that I can't be so black and white about it, that there has to be some level of communication. It seems unlikely that if my wife is left in a complete vacuum she would turn around on her own -- she needs to occasionally see me in the flesh and observe my own transformation into the confident man she used to know. Right?

The apology letter I sent her was an olive branch acknowledging what she said during our coffee meeting a week ago -- I finally realized ( which I posted about on pg 2 ) how I haven't listened to her over the years and how my lack of listening has been disrespectful to her. I always thought I was listening and being the devoted husband, but what I was doing was even worse than the average husband who doesn't listen. I was hearing her words and then injecting my own thoughts and preferences and deciding to do what I wanted to do anyways, convincing myself that I was doing what was best for us or for her. I didn't see this until last week.

I need to continue to GAL. I need to continue to ride that no-contact side the spectrum. I don't have the answer as to why she has not written me back after the apology letter but that's okay. I have no idea how she interpreted what I said. Only she knows that and that's fine, that's for her to process and think about. It's entirely possible she's trying to give me the time and space I mentioned in the letter, or perhaps she doesn't know how to respond to the letter. I have no idea. I will know when she decides to let me know. But at some point there needs to be contact again. Whether that's initiated by her on her own timeline or by me...I guess I just feel like I need to be prepared for another coffee meeting at some point. Not to script it, but just to be somewhat prepared. Maybe I am answering my own question. Maybe GAL is the preparation.

Anyone can get a life. I need to master it.

[LITB]

Personally, I think you allow the letter to resonate with her. Like you said, you continue to GAL in the meantime. Make your actions align with the letter.

If you have the discipline to do the work and let her come to you, it will serve you well.

Right now, you gravitate to wanting to temp check. You have mentioned that you know the letter isn't a magic bullet, but you anxiously want to meet her for coffee. That tells me that you placed expectations on the letter. I understand. Been there, done that.

Master GAL for you. The rest will fall into place.

[180Man]

Personally, I think you allow the letter to resonate with her. Like you said, you continue to GAL in the meantime. Make your actions align with the letter.

If you have the discipline to do the work and let her come to you, it will serve you well.

Okay. Yes. You're right. Thank you. I need my ass kicked sometimes.

The question then pops in my head...what if she never comes? Or, in the most likely case, simply continues to want the bare minimum interaction to get the divorce settled and over with? I want to say I will be well on my way to GAL by then and it won't matter, but...it will matter. I don't think I will ever get over her. Not fully. I don't see how I could. I will always wonder how she's doing, what she's up to, if she's happy...shoot, I wondered this afternoon if she was taking care of herself and eating healthy. Uggh. Okay, time to shut up and have some discipline. Back to cleaning out the kitchen!

Right now, you gravitate to wanting to temp check. You have mentioned that you know the letter isn't a magic bullet, but you anxiously want to meet her for coffee. That tells me that you placed expectations on the letter. I understand. Been there, done that.

Well, I guess I didn't think I had placed expectations on it...it didn't feel like I had, but you make a good point.

Master GAL for you. The rest will fall into place.

Thank you for the sage advice. I need to hear this stuff.

[180Man]

To piggy back on my last post...I picked up my truck tonight from a new mechanic. Didn't have time to do it myself today so I took it to a place I found on yelp. Mechanic was a really nice guy who escaped Iraq with his family in 2013. He told me that "they" took his sister and brother-in-law and demanded a ransom (I asked who "they" is, he said it could have been anyone, ISIS, the neighbors...anyone who needed money). The family scraped together money to pay it but have never seen or heard from them since. Terrible, terrible story. I can't even imagine.

Really puts my own shít into perspective.

[Cristy]

But what's next after an apology letter like this? Do I ask her to coffee in a month? Do I stay dark indefinitely? I wrote a very good letter and I suspect it will make her think a bit, but I know it's no silver bullet. It was necessary for both myself and her for me to acknowledge her feelings, acknowledge that I now understand I didn't listen to her often (despite thinking I was listening), and to acknowledge that by not listening to her I was not respecting her. This is good for both of us regardless of the outcome, but I do have the question of: what next? I am working on myself, I will continue to do so, but what's the path forward from here when it comes to my relationship with her? I know it's not some cookie cutter plan where I just follow steps A through Z, but I would like to hear feedback and ideas. My DB coach didn't really cover what's next beyond saying we should talk about some sort of "4 columns" thing in our next session.

Hello 180man,

Good for you for sending the letter! I'm glad you feel good about what you wrote.

It sounds like your DB Coach has a plan for your next session. It would also be a good opportunity to go over the questions you have raised here recently.

Please call me at 303-444-7004 and we can look at scheduling options.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[180Man]

Hi Cristy, I tried calling yesterday but I was too late. I'll give you guys a call today.

Still no response from my W. Again, still okay with this. My IC said that the letter would be very difficult for her to dismiss because I wrote about things in a manner that showed a deep understanding and acknowledgement of the hurt I have caused her. IC said that, yes, even though they are just words, it was evident that they were not just words due to what I wrote. Probably not explaining it very well, but whatever. If you are reading this and considering writing an apology letter to your S, I would say take your time and make the words count. It took me several days to write and get it to where I wanted it. Of course, you have to be doing "the work," too, for anything to matter. Spiritual, mental, physical...otherwise what's the point?

[180Man]

Had another DB session last night. I think I'll be okay for a little while, I'm on a good path right now for myself. As far as my W replying to my letter, well...no news is good news, right?

I have been slowly working my way through BluWave's threads this past week or so. I think I'm about halfway through. Lots and lots of good insight in there from many people, but it's a lot to process all at once. Some gems I found along the way and wrote down as I've been reading...

I want intimacy, honesty, partnership, friendship and love, fully and equally. All while understanding the need to avoid codependency, and stay independent but connected.

It's simply a choice to wake up every day and think "I don't need you, but I want you."

Well, again, I am no psychologist, but for me detachment means breaking an unhealthy level of co-dependency. It means not allowing what that other person says, does, and feels, to dictate what I say, do, and feel. It means to love someone but not to sacrifice your own needs and feelings for them. For me it means that I can create healthy boundaries, to be free to say no without fear of them withdrawing their love. It means to accept that when they say no to me, they are not saying that they don't love me. It is letting someone go who is asking to be released. It is valuing myself enough to know what I deserve and to ask for it. It is knowing that I cannot change another person but if I am not comfortable with what they are doing, I can safely take a giant step back.

You have the gift of time now, and the focusing energy of pain. Don't feel all of this pain without getting your money's worth. Surrender to what is really happening. Face it head on.

I don't need her, I want her...that's a profound statement. Yesterday and the day before I was doing well with this sentiment. Almost too well as I started to worry that I was forgetting her too easily. But, alas, today I am having moments of sadness.

I start to wonder how, if at all, my letter has affected her...but I have to remind myself that this thought process is aligned with having expectations. If I have none, I wouldn't worry about what she's thinking. But this is hard to do since just a few short months ago my world revolved around her. I have been reading several different books to help me work on me (if you're a reggae fan, I discovered by chance a good song about exactly this just yesterday: Fixman by Roots of a Rebellion). I think they are helping but it's a lot to take in and absorb. I think I definitely fit aspects of the "Nice Guy" syndrome. Ugh.

One hour at a time, one day at a time.

[LITB]

180man!! Glad to read your update. You are progressing in the right direction. It is a process to get to the other side. Like you said, one day at a time.

BTW, it is alright to feel sad and the other difficult emotions. I suggest to do a search for: Brene Brown: The power of vulnerability. I have listened to it many times. I found it to be very profound.

Keep moving forward bud.

[180Man]

LITB,

Thanks for your reply and encouragement! Every post I have read here has helped a lot, even the ones with tough love. On Brene Brown, are you referring to the book or TED talk or...both? About to pull up the TED talk right now.

[sandi2]

Still no response from my W. Again, still okay with this

No, you aren't okay with it. At least, be honest with yourself. You've counted the days and considered every possible thought and reaction she might have........and you can't think of anything else to talk about b/c you've been totally focused on that darn letter! You wanted it to affect her and help your chances to R. Wasn't that your true motivation? At best, she will say she appreciates it........and that will probably be due to you prompting her. It was another attempt to add more emotional pressure, which is usually not received very well.

If you are reading this and considering writing an apology letter to your S, I would say take your time and make the words count. I

Make it count? Like in making it effective in affecting her emotions? Like the line you used, in spite of the coach's hesitancy? It is an apology! From what I've observed, most WW/WAW will say it's too little too late. I think it comes across as a con job from a man who uses emotional pressure on his W. That's what I see. You thought the letter would serve as a hook, and made it a form of pursuit.

[180Man]

Still no response from my W. Again, still okay with this

No, you aren't okay with it. At least, be honest with yourself. You've counted the days and considered every possible thought and reaction she might have........and you can't think of anything else to talk about b/c you've been totally focused on that darn letter! You wanted it to affect her and help your chances to R. Wasn't that your true motivation? At best, she will say she appreciates it........and that will probably be due to you prompting her. It was another attempt to add more emotional pressure, which is usually not received very well.

If you are reading this and considering writing an apology letter to your S, I would say take your time and make the words count. I

Make it count? Like in making it effective in affecting her emotions? Like the line you used, in spite of the coach's hesitancy? It is an apology! From what I've observed, most WW/WAW will say it's too little too late. I think it comes across as a con job from a man who uses emotional pressure on his W. That's what I see. You thought the letter would serve as a hook, and made it a form of pursuit.

I disagree. Day-to-day my emotions have felt mostly stable and I haven't been losing my mind like I was in the past. I AM okay with no communication right now. My letter was extremely sincere. I really did have an awakening last week to how I had treated her at times through the years. My true motivation was to apologize. If I had zero intent to rekindle my marriage, I probably wouldn't be here. I probably would have filed and went about my life. That path would have sucked, too, but I suspect I could be bar hopping several nights a week having fun. But I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that because I have a deep love for my wife and even though she fùcked up, so have I. I want to see if we can fix it. My letter was not a hook, it was an honest look at how I've hurt her and my apology for those things. It was sincere and from the heart. I asked nothing of her.

But what is any letter? Communication. Communication is a two-way thing, so yes, I do wonder how my communication was received and if it will be responded to. This is natural. Yes I want to communicate with her. Yes I want to fix my marriage. Implying I have some other secret sinister motive is not something I appreciate.

If she never responds, ignores what I've said, and has me served, that's her choice and, ultimately, her response to my apology. I don't think that will be the case, but who knows. But in the mean time, I am fine.

Before I sat down with my wife for coffee last week, Sandi, I read a ton of what you've written on these boards and took it to heart. It is very good advice for certain circumstances. That being said, I realized that in my situation, I am not in a position to take such a hard line toward my wife on everything. I have screwed up, too, and even though you may think an apology letter to my wife is a weak attempt to hook her into something, I think we can both agree that we are seeing things through our own filters. I will not be a push over and I am becoming a stronger man, but that does not preclude owning my own problems and trying to have honest communication with my wife. Not everything is black and white and, honestly, if we have zero communication...what's the point?

[180Man]

I was going to post earlier today to ask the question of what to tell friends. I decided against it. My DB coach said to tell as few people as possible thereby making it easier should she ever want to come home. I had been following this on my own already so it's nothing really new.

However, I went to have dinner with a buddy of mine tonight, he is in town for work for a couple months. He and his W used to lived here until a couple years ago and our wives were great friends. I have hung out with him a couple of times so far since he has been back out here but simply told him my W was swamped with work -- which is true. I never really talk about R stuff with my male friends anyways, so it's not like anything was different. Maybe I'm way off, but I'm certain 95% of men don't normally talk about R stuff. Either way, I figured if my W came up tonight I would just tell him we were having a hard time and leave it at that.

Well, turns out he already knew. Apparently my W has talked to his W at least a couple times, idk to what extent. He didn't say he knew any of the details, but he knew we were having trouble and didn't want to bring it up unless I did. Fair enough, I'd probably have done the same. I'm actually glad that my W has been talking to his W. I feel like she needs some girlfriend support like that from someone down to earth like my buddy's W. She really lost all of her college girlfriends over the years and didn't have much of anyone in town as far as females these last couple of years...I was worried about her in that regard before any of this happened.

So, anyways, I guess that's somewhat of a relief. I'm glad my W has some good support. I didn't get into any real details with my buddy but I'm glad I have him to lean on now if I need to. I think we're going to go hiking later in the week. I didn't tell him my W had an A. I didn't tell him she won't move home. I didn't tell him she wants a D. Just said that we had both fùcked up and that I want to work on it but it takes two. Told him I am trying to figure out what to do with the house. I don't think he knew it has gotten that far.

Today was hard, I have been taking everything out of the kitchen cabinets and cleaning top to bottom. I got bunch of cardboard boxes and started putting her stuff or things of ours that reminded me of her into the boxes. That was very hard. Talked to my mother, she's Ms. Narcissism. Somehow she keeps managing to make this about her. It drives me fùcking nuts. She also decided it was necessary to give me her analysis of my W and how she has always run from trouble, how she doesn't think she can handle this and is just running away, and that it sounds like my W has just made up her mind and is going to go on with the D no matter what.

Gee, thanks mom.

I do have the feeling my W has simply made up her mind and that's that. I think she cares for me and doesn't want to hurt me more which is why she wants to go through mediation instead of lawyers. I think that's really the only reason. I looked up the cost of a local mediator today -- $4k!! What?! Am I wrong to think she should pay for it because this will be her divorce, not mine?

I think I am DBing fairly well, but again I just don't think it's really going to change much on her end. I am doing my best to DB for ME, but at the end of the day I do want her to come home. It's hard to detach so much to the point where I just don't even care if she comes home or not...seems like that would be weird. Idk. Maybe I'm not DBing well, after all...

[180Man]

So...brother-in-law texts me this morning: "Hey can I bother you?"

Then an hour or so later MIL texts: "You might be the only person in the world who can help me with a problem that I have"

For background, BIL is harmless, he's a good kid just starting out in his career, when I last visited he asked if I could still be his brother (since he doesn't have any) even if things fall out with my W. Very nice sentiment but I'm not sure I'm strong enough for that.

MIL has told my wife she needs to grow up and strongly disagrees with my W's actions, to the point that (last I was in contact) they weren't even talking.

I haven't talked to her family for a month.

I'd really prefer not to get wrapped back up in her family's stuff right now, but then again, MIL's husband had a stroke two weeks after my W's BD. Not saying the BD caused the stroke, but it definitely didn't help. He was so upset at my W, he couldn't even sleep. Out of all the out-of-state kids, I was the only one to fly out the same day of the stroke and go help my MIL for a week. My W and SIL didn't fly out there until about a week and a half later due to work and only stayed a few days. I don't know what my MIL's husband's status is right now, I check google for obituaries every once in a while but I'm presuming he's still alive. It was a very bad stroke.

So anyways...do I respond? Ignore them? Some other option?

[Dawgs]

Blood is ALWAYS thicker than water. Remember that.

[LITB]

180,

Personally, this is independent of your M/R with your MIL. There is nothing wrong with checking on your MIL and the status on her husband. It isn't always black and white.

You can help people out without expectations.

[180Man]

Okay, thanks to both of you for the quick feedback, that helps. I'll check in and see what's up but will remind myself that I'm just water.

[180Man]

Well, turns out she just wanted help with her computer. Her internet went down when I was out there helping with her H's stroke and it happened again so she asked if I could help. She sent me some pictures of H's recovery, looks like he's slowly getting better, but I guess I can stop checking the obits.

After church yesterday I thought of reaching out to the pastor to see if he had time to talk one-on-one. I think I will, I think it will be good for me and help me work more on my spiritual side.

[LITB]

After church yesterday I thought of reaching out to the pastor to see if he had time to talk one-on-one. I think I will, I think it will be good for me and help me work more on my spiritual side.

I think that is a great idea. Let us know how it goes after you call this evening or tomorrow.

[180Man]

I emailed him, hopefully will hear back tomorrow. I'll let you guys know how it went.

Got a letter in the mail today from some random company. Their letter said that my W had filed paperwork for divorce two weeks ago (I presume this company is simply trying to solicit me for a lawyer referral by mining public records). To recap: We had coffee two weeks ago Monday, she said she wanted us to plan for mediation, she said she didn't want to serve me. That Tuesday she emails me thanking me for listening to her at coffee but still wants us to find a mediator. Wednesday she filed but didn't tell me. Friday I responded to her email with my apology letter to which I haven't heard anything back.

So...then I find out two weeks later from a third party company that she filed paperwork? I guess I should have expected her to follow through with paperwork, but you think she would have mentioned it at the coffee meeting..."By the way, I'm filing the paperwork this week."

I haven't been served and she's still paying half of the bills, so there's that. When I was a teenager and got into a minor 5mph fender bender the other driver tried to sue me and claimed he served me even though he hadn't. Do I need to somehow check to see if she has claimed to have served me? I doubt that is the case but I also didn't think I would be talking about divorce on the internet three months ago.

This really [censored]. I was going to go to bed early tonight and go to the gym at 5, but this spun me up when I opened the mail tonight. I guess it doesn't really change anything since I haven't been served and, presuming nothing false has been filed to the contrary, that means the clock hasn't started ticking. In our state I have to be served before the court will touch it and I have 30 days to respond once served. Then I guess it's 6 months until it can be finalized.

Does this change my approach of staying dark? Do I continue to wait for her to contact me regarding my apology email? Or do I ask her for another coffee meeting and give her another glimpse at how I'm changing, try to open up during conversation and hope she opens up too? If she was affected at all by my apology letter, a good meeting could fan the coals a little bit, right? If she was unaffected, I assume she would arrive expecting to talk about mediation.

What should I do??? I hate this.

[KevinIn]

That's a tough one. Personally, I'd talk to my DB Coach

I think you are right that she filed if you got that unsolicited mail. She's probably in another place mentally and no amount of coffee dates will change her mind. I'd likely just ignore the piece of mail and stay dark.

Just keep planning with your lawyer to respond once you get served. Sorry you got that mail - i have no doubt it was painful.

[Dawgs]

Or do I ask her for another coffee meeting and give her another glimpse at how I'm changing, try to open up during conversation and hope she opens up too?

No, do not offer - your thoughts are you are trying to show her how you are changing? Not a good idea. Just let it go as it is, and if you don't have a lawyer, get one.

[MoveFrwd]

Wednesday she filed but didn't tell me.

So...then I find out two weeks later from a third party company that she filed paperwork?

Maybe Im misunderstanding. You said she filed. That wouldnt surprise me then that you got mail about it. Im not sure what you are differentiating between "filed" and "filed paperwork".

In our state I have to be served before the court will touch it and I have 30 days to respond once served. Then I guess it's 6 months until it can be finalized.

In my opinion, that timeline doesnt matter. What difference will it make to your life right now if you are 'DIVORCED'? You have the rest of your life to have a chance to rekindle your relationship. I would take your focus off of this timeline.

If she was affected at all by my apology letter, a good meeting could fan the coals a little bit, right? If she was unaffected, I assume she would arrive expecting to talk about mediation.

This is why I dont think that the apology letter was a great idea right now. You continue to say that you 'have no expectations', and you 'did it for you', and so on. But you also are commenting on how it might have 'affected' her. To me, this indicates that you are looking for some action or response from the letter. If the letter was truly for you, then let it go - theres no need to bring it up anymore.

[LITB]

Let go of the expectations of the apology letter. It was too soon for it to have any affect. She has her walls up on any of your changes. It isn't a make or break thing. No big deal. Keep moving.

You have to operate with the information that you know to be fact. She is moving in the direction towards D. You can't trust her right now. She is on the opposite team, so you can't expect her to let you know what she is up to.

I don't recall if you have met with an attorney. If not, I would highly recommend that you have a consultation at the very least. Knowing exactly what you are up against will be very helpful to you. Of course, you don't let her know this.

Now is not the time to have coffee with her. Now is the time to move in the opposite direction. Limit your contact with her and continue to focus on yourself. She knows where you stand and how to get a hold of you.

[180Man]

Ok. Let go of the letter. I got it. To the extent of who contacts who at this point, I feel the ball is in her court though, right?

I will meet with a lawyer for a consultation. I've read a good amount online and have a general idea of what to expect, but it will be smart to meet with a lawyer, you guys are right.

I just have this underlying feeling that if we sat down together I could talk some sense into her. We rarely had big fights, but on the couple of occasions that we did I would let her cool down for a little and then go sit with her and put my arm around her and talk through it with her. It feels like the more and more time she spends at work and the less and less she is seeing me, the dog, the house, etc, the easier it is for her to just forget any of this ever happened. This current job position she is in is like a drug for her. Seriously. She has like 60 people working for her and nobody to tell her she's wrong. They jump when she says jump, they all think she's the life of the party, the really cool boss, she feeds on it. I don't think she will really feel this divorce until she is out of that job. She will be forced to move to another job in about 6 - 12 months which will most likely be much less demanding and have quite a bit of down time.

sigh. I'm going to be super late for work now. Thanks for your help guys.

[leahsue]

180man,
Just a quick thought on your paragraph about how you used to be able to sit down, put your arm around her, etc.
Those days are over. She is not the same person you could talk off a ledge. That power is no longer yours. Whatever happens on her job is also off your plate now. That whole paragraph was about her. What about YOU? GAL, forget about her, at least for now. It's out of your control. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that's just how these things play out.

[MoveFrwd]

I just have this underlying feeling that if we sat down together I could talk some sense into her.

'Talk some sense into her' sounds a lot like 'convince her that she's wrong and Im right'. Doesnt sound particularly validating to me.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do is become a man only a fool would want to leave. Theres nothing you can do if she is truly a fool.

[KevinIn]

Leahsue and kaizen said it better than i could. So, my comment is "what they said". Re-read theirs and take them to heart.

[180Man]

Those days are over. She is not the same person you could talk off a ledge. That power is no longer yours. Whatever happens on her job is also off your plate now.

Okay. I guess you're right. I need to hear this, thank you.

That whole paragraph was about her. What about YOU? GAL, forget about her, at least for now. It's out of your control. I don't mean to sound harsh, but that's just how these things play out.

I know. You're right. I have been trying to GAL very much so. Some days are easier than others. I am trying to figure out what I should do with the house. Half of me says rent it, the other half says sell it. IDK. What I do know is that I can't live there much longer, the memories are too painful.

I have been seriously considering buying an RV and living in that for the next year or so. I know the dog wouldn't necessarily be thrilled about it, but I just don't see myself renting a house right now, especially since I may end up transferring to somewhere else in the next year or two anyways.

'Talk some sense into her' sounds a lot like 'convince her that she's wrong and Im right'. Doesnt sound particularly validating to me.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do is become a man only a fool would want to leave. Theres nothing you can do if she is truly a fool.

I see how it would be interpreted that way. I think leahsue expressed what I was thinking: talking her off the ledge. It's not a wrong/right thing for me. I don't want a divorce, she's my soulmate and I know we can work things out given the opportunity. Especially after reading about some of the insane stuff people here have successfully dealt with, our stuff is certainly nothing that can't be worked through. But it takes two for this, I know.

I don't think she's a fool, but she's definitely acting like one right now. My mention of her job situation was simply to point out that she likely won't stop acting a fool until this current assignment is in the rear view and she has some real quality time with herself. Nothing I can change or am trying to change, just my observation.

I will follow your advice and do my best to become that man. I almost wish there was a physical support group here for all of us to attend together. This is a very sad and lonely path for me.

[180Man]

Instead of going to the gym today I went to yoga with a buddy of mine who had invited me. Wow. I've been sweating pretty good at the gym, but damn! He's leaving town next week so if I keep going I guess I'll have to do it on my own. I think that will be good for me, though -- I'm a pretty good type A at work, but once I get home it takes work for me to want to go out. This is something I know I need to work on. I'm thinking maybe go once a week. Wednesday is normally leg day for me and I know everyone says don't skip leg day, but I think I can safely move it to Tuesday or something.

Pastor emailed me back today. He has the stomach flu so we're going to meet Monday instead of trying for this week. I am looking forward to talking with him. We sent several emails back and forth today just figuring out a date/time but at the end he said "There is hope my friend." Half of me feels optimistic when reading this, the other half of me realizes he has no idea what I'm coming in to talk about other than "marriage issues." I feel like once I explain it all he's going to change his tune. I am going there for me and I really feel like I need some guidance in this side of my life, both with and without respect to my marriage. I needed guidance before any of this happened...I had been reading and reading for several years trying to find something that clicked with me and my W was very supportive of this search even though she already had her own relationship and foundation with God. I regret that my life had to come to this for me to really start to find my way. At times I feel like Lieutenant Dan in Forrest Gump when they're out to sea.

Applied for a tremendous job opportunity today. Finally finished all the requirements for it. Mailed it off. We'll see what happens. I would be moving across the country in six months or so if I got accepted.

Getting closer to finishing cleaning the kitchen out. I've been taking everything out the drawers, putting anything of hers or anything that reminds me of her into boxes, cleaning everything, and putting the rest back. It's very hard. I could only do it for about an hour today. It's extremely depressing. It's even harder when it's just me. Not a lot of people in town here for me to ask for help or to spend time with otherwise.

The dog is on my mind a good amount. I feel I'm not doing enough for her. She needs more walks, more time at the dog park, etc. I think about leaving this house and moving into an RV and I worry about bringing her into that type of living environment. What may feel like a healthy idea for me would be the opposite for her. Right now she has a dog door and a yard to hang out in. If I escape to an RV and simplify my life for a little while I feel it would be good for me, but I worry about her.

It's upsetting to think that my W isn't worrying about her, doesn't miss her, or doesn't care about her anymore. She can rewrite history or even dwell on valid issues in which I wronged her...but that dog never did anything but love on her (and sometimes get sand in our bed ...) I miss my W. There's not much else I need to say about it. I pray that one day we'll be unpacking some of these boxes together, but I know right now this is what I need to do to keep myself sane. But it still hurts and I miss her dearly. I just need to keep trying to focus on me and keep praying, that's all I can do.

Thanks for everyone's support here. Night.

[180Man]

W replied to my apology email finally:

H,

I'm sorry it's taken me a little while to get back to your email. I've done a lot of thinking since you sent it to me. I am extremely grateful that you are still willing to listen and are trying to be considerate of my feelings, even with everything that's happened between us. I appreciate that you've listened to my concerns and have put a lot of thought into your responses.

The sad truth, though, is that I think we're past the point of recovery for our marriage. I DO think that we can continue to grow and become better people for those individuals who will enter our lives from this point on. I do still care about you and want you to be as happy as possible in the future.

I'm writing to let you know that I've filed divorce paperwork. I'm having it mailed to the house for you to review this week. I didn't want you to just get a surprise package in the mail and wonder why I didn't even bother to tell you it was coming. I'm gone a LOT in the next couple of months for work, so this was - unfortunately - the only real option I have. I also can't give the paperwork to you myself, supposedly.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear right now. I know that you were hoping that we could continue to work through things, but I do sincerely believe this is the best way forward for both of us.

I hope you are doing well. At some point, we're going to have to work out how to divide things. I've been continuing to pay the mortgage, even though I haven't lived there for over 4 months. At some point, I'm going to have to stop paying so I can move on to whatever's next for me. We can talk more about a plan for what we want to do with our assets. Again, I wish we didn't have to do this over email, but my time in town is getting pretty limited due to work.

Talk soon. Hope everything is ok.

-W

Well, it has only been 3.5 months since I kicked her out and two months since BD. I had asked her to come home within a week of that but she said it didn't feel like the right time. There are no assets to divide besides the house. She can have everything in it as far as I'm concerned, I don't want anything that reminds me of her or us.

What do I do now?? I have a DB coach session later today but I also want feedback from you guys. I feel like I'm doing all the right DBing stuff and I'm just hitting a brick wall with her.

[LITB]

You are still early on in your sitch. Continue to DB and work on yourself. It didn't take you 3.5 months to get to this point. It took a long time.

It will take you awhile to turn this thing around. Be grateful for the response and don't look at it as a brick wall that is stopping you. Just a brick wall that you need to get over or around. It will take tools and work.

[180Man]

LITB, thanks for the reply. I was actually in the middle of reading your thread when this email came in. I was pretty impressed with how cool and collected you have been with handling it.

The problem is that she will be gone a lot between now and summer for work. And then she will be gone for up to eight months starting in the summer. At the end of that period it is highly likely she doesn't move back to this city but that she moves somewhere else far away.

So I have email contact with her. That's about it. I have not snooped on her phone, but it appears in the last month she pretty much stopped using it. It's extremely likely she has a new number. I'm not sure why that was necessary, I haven't called or texted her since BD two months ago.

Do I respond to her email? How? What do you say to an email like that?

What do I do with the divorce paperwork in the mail? It's very presumptuous of her to assume I would accept being served via mail. In my state that's something I have to agree to.

She's just done, it feels hopeless.

[MoveFrwd]

The problem is that she will be gone a lot between now and summer for work. And then she will be gone for up to eight months starting in the summer. At the end of that period it is highly likely she doesn't move back to this city but that she moves somewhere else far away.

Sounds like your fear talking. Just as many people say that shes too close and wont be able to miss you.

Do I respond to her email? How? What do you say to an email like that?

I dont see a need to.

What do I do with the divorce paperwork in the mail?

Look at it with your lawyer?

[180Man]

Sounds like your fear talking. Just as many people say that shes too close and wont be able to miss you

Do I respond to her email? How? What do you say to an email like that?

I dont see a need to.

I don't fear talking to her, but if I were to ask her to sit down with me she would likely just want to talk about the logistics of splitting things up. My best friend says "okay, probably...but just talk to her, she's your wife, talk to her like you're having coffee with your wife." Yeah...ok...what does that mean?

I'm confused by your response because you ask if I'm fearful of talking with her but responding to her email is the only way I'm going to have any communication with her. She would probably agree to coffee if I asked.

[LITB]

There is really nothing to talk to her about. You can't talk your way out of something you acted your way into. It takes actions.

Don't concern yourself whether she can directly she your changes. She will find out about them one way or another. You just need to get there.

For now, get your hands on the paperwork and take it to your consultation with your attorney. I don't know how deep into my sitch you have read, but it got pretty ugly in the legal arena. The only way to get to the other side of this hell, is through it.

[MoveFrwd]

Sounds like your fear talking. Just as many people say that shes too close and wont be able to miss you.

I don't fear talking to her

I didnt mean to imply that you fear talking to you. I meant that the words you wrote about her being gone are being voiced by your fears. You are afraid that of her busy schedule and potential move being the end of any chance she has to turning back around.

My point is that you cant possibly know that. If you calm your fears, then you can focus on whats really important instead of what she is doing.

I'm confused by your response because you ask if I'm fearful of talking with her but responding to her email is the only way I'm going to have any communication with her. She would probably agree to coffee if I asked.

I dont see any benefit in responding to that email. Nor do I see benefit in asking her to coffee.

[MoveFrwd]

that you fear talking to **her**

[180Man]

This is good advice and I hesitate to say "but"....but....she is quite effectively cut off from me aside from direct emails between us. Any mutual friends we had she is not talking to. I have not been talking to her family as part of my DB, so she won't be hearing/seeing my changes or actions via them, either. I'm sure MIL would be happy to hear from me from time to time, but aside from asking for computer help earlier in the week MIL has been giving me my space.

I think I was on page three when I became distracted by my W's email this morning. From what I have had time to read so far, my W is much like yours when it comes to making decisions and sticking with them.

[180Man]

Kaizen,

You snuck in a reply while I was responding to LITB. Ok, that makes more sense now. Yes, I am fearful that her busy schedule and potential move will eliminate any possible future. She will want to have mediation complete before she leaves for her long work trip this summer. And I feel that once she is done with that and ends up moving, that will really be the end of it.

I can see myself a year from now showing up on her doorstep only to find she has moved on and is over me.

So, yes, there is fear of that. I am also having trouble living in our house alone. I don't think I can do it much longer. We have so many memories there, it's very painful to be there.

I wish I was handling this better or that I was as strong as you guys.

[MoveFrwd]

This is good advice and I hesitate to say "but"....but....she is quite effectively cut off from me aside from direct emails between us. Any mutual friends we had she is not talking to. I have not been talking to her family as part of my DB, so she won't be hearing/seeing my changes or actions via them, either. I'm sure MIL would be happy to hear from me from time to time, but aside from asking for computer help earlier in the week MIL has been giving me my space.

To that, I say 'so'? If she is interested, she will look. But your changes arent going to be what makes her look. Thats up to her. I think about it like this: pretend the two of you are talking a walk, but she is three steps ahead of you. No matter how fast yu go, she will mirror that or speed up. If you stop, there is nothing you can do or say to get her to turn around; she will have to decide that for herself. But, if she DOES turn around, THATS when your change and growth matters and will entice her to come back.

Stop fixating on getting her attention now; you cant. No matter how long she spends walking away from you, if you are still there standing when she turns around, then you have a chance.

Yes, I am fearful that her busy schedule and potential move will eliminate any possible future. She will want to have mediation complete before she leaves for her long work trip this summer. And I feel that once she is done with that and ends up moving, that will really be the end of it.

I can see myself a year from now showing up on her doorstep only to find she has moved on and is over me.

So, yes, there is fear of that. I am also having trouble living in our house alone. I don't think I can do it much longer. We have so many memories there, it's very painful to be there.

Like I said above, she has to be the one to decide to turn around. Chasing after her wont help.

I wish I was handling this better or that I was as strong as you guys.

As information, I went to see the Avengers II in a thetaer by myself shortly after my separation and sobbed. I used to take 15 minutes once or twice a day while at work to go into the bathroom to compose myself.

Nobody is strong at the stage you are in. Its the same as lifting weights; you cant lift XXX pounds until you develop the muscles to be able to do it. Thats what you are doing now.

[180Man]

Kaizen,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I know I haven't always been good at listening to what you've said because it was hard to hear, but I appreciate it.

My changes aren't going to be what makes her look. But if she does look, then that's when my change and growth matters. Okay. It helped me to kind of type what you said again and hear it in my mind. The way you painted that picture helped me a lot when I read it earlier today.

Thanks for sharing your Avengers experience. I guess it's easy to feel like I'm all alone going through this. This helps. Wish we could have a beer sometime.

I finally gave in an told another friend who I have known for maybe 17 years or so. He pointed out to me that Jesus talks about forgiveness and that if you withhold it from someone, God won't be able to forgive you for your own problems. I had never seen that before and it was somewhat striking to think about. I think I should forgive her and need to tell her face to face at some point. Idk when, I haven't even really come to terms with the idea yet. I have wanted to forgive her since very early on, but felt that the road to forgiveness was one we had to go down together, via counseling and talking and whatnot. And when she BD, I guess I figured forgiveness wasn't going to happen until she came back to the table.

So this is something I need to think about now that he brought the idea to my attention.

Had a DB coaching session tonight. Not much to go on, really. She suggested I not reply to my wife's email until after I talk to a lawyer and my pastor. She agreed that my wife is rushing this in order to have it done before she deploys this summer. And she agrees that my wife seems to have her mind set on this right now and there's not much I can do to change that right now. Kind of a depressing call, actually, but I guess you guys have been telling me this already.

[KevinIn]

Kaizen - Great info in your reply. I've saved this as one of my favorites.

I wish I was handling this better or that I was as strong as you guys.

As information, I went to see the Avengers II in a thetaer by myself shortly after my separation and sobbed. I used to take 15 minutes once or twice a day while at work to go into the bathroom to compose myself.

Nobody is strong at the stage you are in. Its the same as lifting weights; you cant lift XXX pounds until you develop the muscles to be able to do it. Thats what you are doing now.

A few weeks after BD#1, I went to see the new Star Wars. It was my first non-kids movie in a movie theater in several years, and I was super pumped about it. Sadly, i sobbed through most of it and didn't really enjoy it.

I still step away from my desk each afternoon for a 20 minute break to refocus. During this time, i do a Headspace session. If you don't have the Headspace app, i highly recommend it.

[doodler]

180Man,

I've written a song for you to sing to you wife. I think it'll make everything good again.

Actually, I'm lying. I totally ripped-off the song from KC and the Sunshine Band. The song is "I'm Your Boogie Man" but I replaced boogie man with 180Man. Every time I see your user name, I think of that song. So now, I'm hoping to plant the song in everyone else's head as well. Apparently I enjoy being evil.

----------------

"I'm Your 180Man"

I'm your 180Man, that's what I am
I'm here to do whatever I can
Be it early morning, late afternoon
Or at midnight. It's never too soon

To want to please you, to want to keep you
To want to do it all, all for you
I want to be your, be your rubber ball
I want to be the boy you love most of all, oh yeah

I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
Turn me on
I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
I'll do what you want

I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
Turn me on
I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
I'll do what you want

I'm your 180Man, that's what I am
I'm here to do whatever I can
Be it early morning, late afternoon
Or at midnight, oh it's never too soon

To want to take you, to want to hold you
I want to give my all, all to you
And I want you to completely understand
Wherever I'm at and wherever I am, oh yeah

I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
Turn me on
I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
I'll do what you want

I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
Turn me on
I'm your 180Man, I'm your 180Man
I'll do what you want

[MoveFrwd]

My changes aren't going to be what makes her look. But if she does look, then that's when my change and growth matters.

Basically yes. But, here's the awesome part. Even if she is foolish enough to never actually turn around, youve already grown and changed anyway and become the 180Man you want to be. So you know your life will be awesome even if she never actually does turn round.

I think I should forgive her and need to tell her face to face at some point.

To me, forgiveness is what matters; telling her doesnt. Telling her only serves to try to manipulate her into doing or feeling something, I think. You forgive for YOU; not for her.

[180Man]

Doodler -- thanks for the song. Made me laugh the other day when I read it. Not sure how well that'd go over with her!

Kaizen -- thanks for the continued support and advice. I hope I can follow through and do the right things.

--------------------

Time for some blogging I guess. I just hung up on my mother. I had been sitting with the dog on the dog's bed crying. I was trying to continue putting my W's stuff in boxes but I just couldn't handle it. I called my mother and asked if she would come down to help me pack up some of this stuff next weekend. She's about three hours north of here. It was a big imposition to her but she begrudgingly agreed to Friday/Saturday. I started updating her on some things that happened today and my mother turned it around to be about HER! This is not the first time she has done this.

Essentially my mother said that if my W and I ever get back together my W owes her an apology for a couple of things. And I'm like...really? My mother feels wronged because in her view my W and I did not come up to help her enough with my sick father for the last year and a half. We were both very busy with work and it's easily six hours of driving with no traffic. Any time we went up there to help my mother always complained that we weren't doing enough. Maybe. But we were doing what we could with the time we had and with us both in the military it's no cake walk. It wasn't enough for her and eventually it wore on us to try to help her and be told it wasn't good enough. So we slowly stopped going. My mother is still upset about it. I understand why, but I've also tried to explain to her how we felt at the time. Almost every time I talk to her on the phone now it comes up and I have to explain again. She can be a very difficult woman. I believe growing up with her always yelling made me avoid any type of fighting with my W. My W and I fought once in a while, but not often. I was usually always the one to calm down first and initiate an apology. I read recently that couples who fight all the time will likely have issues and, likewise, couples who rarely fight will also have issues. Apparently there is some happy medium...

I went to work briefly this morning, then attended church online (as to not run into my W...although I'm wondering if it's time to stop this and just go), then I met my aunt for brunch. My W and I have a little tradition with her...every couple of months we have brunch. Well, my aunt had been worried about us and emailed us both several weeks ago, I told her we were just going through a hard time. I asked her Friday if she had time for brunch and she did. I told her everything that's going on and of course she was supportive. She gave me the very generic advice of...well...you guys need to go work on yourselves and if your paths cross again great, if not, you'll both be okay too. Yeah...I know. She's just trying to be helpful, I know.

I got home and I had a moment of weakness. I called my MIL to ask if her computer issue from last week had been fixed and to ask about her husband's (my W's step-father) stroke. Computer issue still hasn't been fixed and husband's stroke is still pretty bad. I didn't say anything about my W until MIL brought it up. I asked if my W was still not talking to her. I guess they are somewhat talking again. My W got a new phone number, apparently. I had kind of heard this but wasn't 100% sure. Meanwhile I'm still paying for her old number/phone to be on. Would be nice if she told me she wasn't going to be using it anymore. Sounds like my W is trying hard to move to Europe, probably in the summer sometime. It was nothing I didn't really already know. My MIL told me that I should call her (MIL) once in a while even though she knows I have no obligation to do so. She started to tear up right as we got off the phone.

That's when I started trying to pack some more of my W's stuff into boxes. I called my best friend and he tried to talk some sense into me. His analogy is...If someone is feeding you pickles and you hate pickles, you're really not going to like them if someone keeps shoving them in your face. If you hate pickles and you don't eat any for a while...maybe after a while you might be willing to try them again. In other words, I need to work on me. I need to let her work on her and continue not to bug her. And maybe...after she deploys and after she moves to Europe...maybe we can start over. And maybe not. Just re-reading that sentence and thinking about how crazy it sounds makes me think this is a total lost cause. and after she moves to Europe

What the fùck am I thinking?! How am I going to start fresh with her in EUROPE?!#$%@#^

I guess it's nothing you guys haven't already told me. Today is just fùcking shítty. There's another church service in an hour...I'm wondering if maybe I should drive down there and actually attend. Idk...I've already heard the message today, not sure what good it would do me. Meeting with the pastor tomorrow afternoon. But maybe I should go anyways. IDK.

This continues to suck. Today is my one "off" day from the gym and now is when I really need that pickup the most. Thanks for listening.

sigh

[leahsue]

Hi 180,
It all just seems so overwhelming, doesn't it? I personally think you are still trying to look back and see if anyone is watching, which means none of the GAL, changes you are trying to make are about you. That is not going to work. LET IT GO. I am in no position to sound judgemental, bc I feel like all I do is try to let go, but it's so very, very hard.
And I understand about the off days at the gym. I could have gone to OTF today, but I chose to sit out by the pool and drink wine. Hey, it's ok. We'll pick it back up tomorrow.

[180Man]

Leahsue, yeah it is overwhelming. I think you've kind of called me out on some of this and rightfully so. At times I feel I am doing this for me. At other times I feel I am doing it to fix our marriage. I am going to see our pastor tomorrow for me, but deep down I kind of hope he gives me something positive to hang on to with respect to my W and marriage. If I let my mind wander too much, I could start imagining that my W has already met with the pastor and tomorrow he will assure me that there is hope because he has talked to both of us. This is not a healthy thought. I need to remind myself that I'm going for me. FOR ME.

"I don't need her, but I want her."

It's very hard to let go, but I identify with drinking wine and sitting by the pool! I haven't really been drinking during the week lately, but when my "off" day comes (today) it's very easy to go have a few beers with the neighbor! Not sure if this is good or bad. Maybe it doesn't have to be either. Maybe it just is.

I decided I wanted to go to the church service tonight but I decided just a little bit too late to get there in time and find parking. So I took the dog to the beach instead. I called a friend of mine and we talked for over an hour. We talked about God a lot and at the end of the conversation I really felt a lot better. It was strange. I went from crying on the dog's bed to...feeling okay.

I wrote some things down that he said, I'll share them here because I think they are very valuable and may help more than just me:

"Practice God's love for her: Giving and not expecting anything in return. 'Agape' love. I love you because I choose to love you."

"Pray FOR her, not just for your marriage. Because she needs to find her own way and that is a prerequisite to anything that might occur between the two of you."

"As you pray for her, God will nudge you in directions that make you more sensitive to her situation."

Don't know if that will help anyone else in the future, but it helped me. I feel okay again tonight. Today was not a great day, but it could have been worse. I have a roof over my head, I have money in the bank, I have a reliable car, I have neighbors who feed me when I come over and friends who spend their time trying to help me. I have a spouse who still cares for me, despite our troubles otherwise. I have a pastor who will spend time with me. I have an internet forum of strangers willing to lend their thoughts and advice. There is a lot to be thankful for and it's hard to see sometimes.

Thank you.

[LITB]

Hey 180,

How did your meeting go with your Pastor?

Today was not a great day, but it could have been worse. I have a roof over my head, I have money in the bank, I have a reliable car, I have neighbors who feed me when I come over and friends who spend their time trying to help me. I have a spouse who still cares for me, despite our troubles otherwise. I have a pastor who will spend time with me. I have an internet forum of strangers willing to lend their thoughts and advice. There is a lot to be thankful for and it's hard to see sometimes.

I like this. It is important to focus on the positives in our lives. I believe what we focus on is what manifest in our hearts. Good on you for seeing the silver lining.

[180Man]

Hey 180,

How did your meeting go with your Pastor?

I like this. It is important to focus on the positives in our lives. I believe what we focus on is what manifest in our hearts. Good on you for seeing the silver lining.

LITB, thanks for checking in. Meeting with my Pastor was good. Sounds like he's heard stories like ours quite a bit. When we first sat down he asked "So...did you have an affair?" Somewhat telling, I suppose. He kind of roped me into going to a small men's group every other Wednesday which he leads with four other guys. He said it was invite only and not advertised with the other groups the church has and I sort of felt like I needed to say yes. It certainly can't hurt. He essentially had the same sentiment as people here...she is running away, avoiding it, and turning away from God. I brought a backpack full of all the books I've been reading and he was impressing with how I've been working on myself and thinks I'm on the right path. He mentioned that my W is like the woman at the well and even though I am familiar with the story and had actually read it recently, I looked it up again this morning. I'm not sure quite what he meant about that and I'll try to ask him again tomorrow, but I think what he was getting at is that my W has turned away from God, sought out another relationship, and even though the A is over, she continues to turn away from God and her H. Not sure, but I'm thinking that was kind of what he meant. He asked if I had told her that I'm not going to give up on her and I had to think. I haven't.

Saw a lawyer today. With no kids, our case is relatively straightforward. I can choose to respond to her lawyer's attempt to serve me via mail or I can ignore it and make them serve me. According to the lawyer I met with I can make it as easy or as hard as I want. He even suggested that we could drag it out until next year. Conversely, we could have it all wrapped up before she deploys. My best friend said -- and I agree -- that dragging it out is "a bítch move" and will cause her more resentment and make it even less likely to rekindle anything.

I've drafted an email to her again stating that I don't want to divorce but know I can't stop her. Told her I'd like to sign the paperwork and give it to her personally. I offered to set aside a time for us to come to an agreement over our assets, it should be a fairly simple agreement. And then I said that by doing this I'm giving her the ability to end it all whenever she chooses, but asked her to give the paperwork to her lawyer and request that he sit on it for the time being. She has offered several times in the past to answer any questions I have and until now I haven't because I assumed, for the most part, that I had it figured out. But now I realize there is likely more to it than just an affair and my depression last year. So I've asked if she'll go to coffee with me and let me know what I've done to hurt her and push her away so that I can work on myself. And in the mean time while the lawyer sits on the paperwork, give ourselves a chance to relax and ask her to give me a chance to make it work.

I'm debating on that last part of openly asking her to give me a chance to make it work, but I don't need to send this today. It's a well thought-out email, I just gave you the highlights here.

Michelle talks about trying something different if what you're doing isn't working. Well, what I'm doing obviously isn't working and I feel that the situation we're in right now is oddly similar to last summer. Her being at work all the time, me being at home, etc. We obviously communicated much more last summer, but there are a lot of parallels. So, perhaps I have been doing what the books have warned against -- for example, if you were a poor communicator, going no-contact is probably not a good idea. In our case, I have mostly cut her off and we've gone about our daily business as usual. With her leaving so soon, I feel I need to change things up a bit and I believe it would be beneficial for her to see me. I may even bring the dog.

[LITB]

Meeting with my Pastor was good. Sounds like he's heard stories like ours quite a bit. When we first sat down he asked "So...did you have an affair?" Somewhat telling, I suppose. He kind of roped me into going to a small men's group every other Wednesday which he leads with four other guys. He said it was invite only and not advertised with the other groups the church has and I sort of felt like I needed to say yes. It certainly can't hurt.

The two sentences in red strike me as odd. I personally don't think he should have started the visit with that question or even asked that question. That is up to you to share. He should be listening to get a feel for where you are at, so he can be more prepared to help guide you.

And a private group within a church. Raises a red flag to me.

Maybe go to the first meeting to see if it is helpful.

Saw a lawyer today. With no kids, our case is relatively straightforward. I can choose to respond to her lawyer's attempt to serve me via mail or I can ignore it and make them serve me. According to the lawyer I met with I can make it as easy or as hard as I want. He even suggested that we could drag it out until next year. Conversely, we could have it all wrapped up before she deploys. My best friend said -- and I agree -- that dragging it out is "a bítch move" and will cause her more resentment and make it even less likely to rekindle anything.

I wouldn't suggest to drag it out, because it will not get you closer to your goal. Additionally, it will become more costly.

I've drafted an email to her again stating that I don't want to divorce but know I can't stop her. Told her I'd like to sign the paperwork and give it to her personally. I offered to set aside a time for us to come to an agreement over our assets, it should be a fairly simple agreement. And then I said that by doing this I'm giving her the ability to end it all whenever she chooses, but asked her to give the paperwork to her lawyer and request that he sit on it for the time being. She has offered several times in the past to answer any questions I have and until now I haven't because I assumed, for the most part, that I had it figured out. But now I realize there is likely more to it than just an affair and my depression last year. So I've asked if she'll go to coffee with me and let me know what I've done to hurt her and push her away so that I can work on myself. And in the mean time while the lawyer sits on the paperwork, give ourselves a chance to relax and ask her to give me a chance to make it work.

Expectations keep you no the emotional roller coaster. This will not have the outcome that you are hoping for.

I'm debating on that last part of openly asking her to give me a chance to make it work, but I don't need to send this today. It's a well thought-out email, I just gave you the highlights here.

Do not send it. It will not work. You will come away disappointed.

You have been a member here for a little over a month, so you are early in your sitch. Have you set any goals? Small, attainable goals to track your progress though your sitch. You might find it helpful to journal if you are not already doing it.

You need to shift the focus from your W to yourself. This isn't something that happens just because we want it to happen. It happens when you GAL, set goals and improve behavioral patterns over the course of time.

Fill your calendar with things to do.

[MoveFrwd]

You need to shift the focus from your W to yourself. This isn't something that happens just because we want it to happen. It happens when you GAL, set goals and improve behavioral patterns over the course of time.

Agreed.
In fact, Id say this note is more of 'what doesnt work'.

[sandi2]

Kevin, it sounds to me as if you still are thinking of something to do that will get the desired reaction from her. Like, you want to tell her face to face that you forgive her. Has she asked for your forgiveness? If not, then don't assume your announcement of forgiveness will bring forth a positive response from her. In her wayward state, she could see you as trying to be Mr. Self-Righteous. If you can forgive her, then do it for yourself, but don't tell her if she's not made some reference about it..

Then you want to give the signed paperwork to her in person. Why? Is it b/c you want to gage her reaction? Are you hoping this will be the right "thing" that hits her hard enough to make her change her mind?

Then it is you emailing her, and suggesting to meet for coffee so she can tell you all the ways you hurt her.........so that you can better work on yourself. Look, if she has a wayward heart and wanting a divorce before she deploys...........I don't think she will care to discuss all of that stuff, and frankly, I doubt if she cares if you work on yourself or not. She wants out, and does not plan to be around to coach your work. Right now, she is focused on herself and her future.

And now, you want to try asking her to give you a chance to make the MR work. What about her part? You just want her back and you will be responsible for everything? That doesn't usually produce successful results. Unless I have your thread confused with another one, isn't she on OM #2?

I am just saying that these type of moves are not effective, b/c you are desperately trying to say something that gets her to change her mind. She sees through it. You are wanting to make an attempt to push her into giving you a second chance. Maybe you don't see it that way, but from where I sit it seems that all of these efforts are used to apply emotional pressure on her, and if so....... she will likely resent you even more. These are moves that appear unattractive. The more disparate you act, the more distance you add.

IMHO, it would be more effective to not deliver anything in person. No more pursuing R talks......and emails, no more begging, and no more emotional pressure techniques. You have to stop grasping at straws to get the girl back.

[Cadet]

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2737870#Post2737870