Newbie, need help with WAW! (Thread 2)

[180Man]

Previous thread here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2732834&page=1

Quick backstory:

Together 7.5 years, married 5.5 years. No kids. Raised a dog together as our child. Both very busy working professionals. She cheated on me last summer, it happened twice. It's over. I found out in the beginning of December, she sent a no-contact letter shortly thereafter. She was extremely remorseful. We went through 6 weeks of counseling with a crappy counselor who pushed my wife to make a decision about committing to working through marriage therapy or not. Between work, her family, and me, it was too much pressure for her. In counseling I tried to be as understanding as possible, but outside of counseling we emailed quite a bit and I was doing all of the wrong things (see Sandi's rules). She came to our last counseling session (mid-January) and said she wanted a divorce and gave me a letter saying as much. She has said multiple times since then that she would answer any questions I have about it. Her mom's side of the family was furious at her about it. Dad's side of the family has been very passive. Mom's husband couldn't sleep over it, two weeks later he had a stroke. I went to help mom for a week since none of her other children were able to, including my wife. When I came home, my wife had moved all of her things out of the house. I sent her an email the next day telling her she was running away from this, that she was afraid and avoiding it, that a marriage is hard work and we haven't even come close to really working on things. That email was a month ago. Since then I have pretty much gone no-contact. I've been trying to GAL, going to the gym every day, spending time with friends, trying to get back into old hobbies, etc. Two weeks after I emailed her, she replied and asked if I would be willing to meet her for coffee.


Coffee:

Tonight I went to meet my wife for coffee. I wore new clothes that I had bought (she had joked to the counselor that she had bought all of my clothes), got a nice haircut, showed up happy and looking confident. We walked up to the front door at the same time and she reached out to give me a one arm hug. I reciprocated with only one arm. We got our coffees and sat down in the back. She asked me how I had been, I said "Great, you?" She explained how busy work was and I commented about how stressful all the things they're doing must be right now. She asked what I've been up to lately, I said "Work, traveling a little bit, and trying to stay busy. You?" And she responded basically about how she had been working 60 hour weeks and was exhausted.

Then there was an awkward silence for several moments. I decided I wasn't going to say anything since I came here to hear her out. She finally asked if I wanted to talk about the email chain between us. I asked which one, and she clarified the most recent one which I referred to above in my quick backstory. Of course I knew this since it's the only email between us recently. I said I came to hear what she had to say and she said she didn't feel like there was much to discuss and that she didn't want to hash out all of the details again.

I'm going to write the rest of what I can remember...it probably won't be exactly in the correct order, but I'm not sure it matters. I just want to get it down while I still remember it:

Her: I want to talk about going through mediation. I want this to be amicable and not tear each other apart. I don't want to send someone to serve you at the house.
Me: I don't believe divorce is the solutions to our problems, but if that's the path you choose I'll let you go because I love and respect you

Her: I want us to be able to be friends after this
Me: No thank you
Her: (expressed disappointment)

It felt like pulling teeth trying to get her to tell me how she FELT. How can you validate someone if they put a huge wall up in front of their feelings? I was able to prod her a little bit to tell me why she wanted a divorce...

Her: I feel like we've grown apart over the years, that we've been great friends but fell short as lovers.
Me: I'm sorry you felt unloved and disconnected from me, I never stopped loving you and I guess I wasn't able to express myself very well to you. Can you give me an example of when you first started to feel like this?

Her: (At first she started to resist giving an example because she didn't want to get into the weeds, but eventually offered this...) When we first started dating you would bring me lilies all the time but I told you I was allergic to them and you kept bringing them to me anyways because [i]you liked them. You only stopped bringing my lilies when I really came down and told you I was allergic and it was a problem for me.[/i]
Me: (thinking to myself: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? fml....anyways, I don't remember my response exactly to this, but I tried to validate the best I could. I think I said something like I'm sorry that must have been very difficult or something, I don't remember)

Her: You're very successful and good looking and you're not going to have a problem finding someone else.
Me: No, I don't think I will, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

Her: You look like you've been working out, you look very good.
Me: You look very good too
Her: No, I've been working 60 hours a week, I'm a mess (she was still in her work clothes)

Her: I still care about you and still love you, but I just don't feel romantic toward you and that feeling just hasn't changed.
Me: (don't remember what I said)

I don't really remember too much else word for word. It wasn't very long, maybe 20 or 25 minutes. It was really hard to get her to open up and I felt like it was really hard to validate someone who didn't want to talk about the issues. I was not really prepared for that aspect. I felt immediately like she is SET on going through with the divorce, come hell or high water. I felt like there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Toward the ends she asked this:

Her: So what are you going to do?
Me: Well, I'm going to go home, think about things, get up and go to work...you know

I forget what else we said, really. There wasn't too much else.

At the end I told her: I'm going to think about things, I think we had a crappy counselor and that marriage deserves more work than this. I'll see you later.



I feel like I did a mediocre job at validation, that it wouldn't have mattered what the hell I said good or bad, that she's set on divorce. I feel like she is so wrapped up in work that she hasn't even had time to really miss me or question actions/decisions.

I called my best friend right afterwards and relayed to him what had happened, he said it sounded like it had gone to plan, that I had validated as much as I could and that we knew going into this that she wasn't going to be receptive or be open to anything.

It feels hopeless. I can continue the last resort technique, but I don't think she gives a damn. I have DB coaching tomorrow afternoon, that's about it. I really don't know what to do next. Ambien is kicking is, so it's time to post!!

[180Man]

----Just little tidbits I thought I'd add after postign----

I should add that she seemed surprised when i didn't have any questions. But I sort of did have a question....like...how were you feeling? Which she had walled off with zero desire to talk about them,

And the lilies thing was basically just to point out that I don't listen to her.

She also said that there's someone out there who's right for me and someone who's right for her.

[MoveFrwd]

It feels hopeless. I can continue the last resort technique, but I don't think she gives a damn. I have DB coaching tomorrow afternoon, that's about it. I really don't know what to do next.

Heres my thought. Im sorry that youre feeling hopeless. It would be unlikely for her to set a coffee date several days or weeks in the future with a plan to reconcile. Honestly, it seems like shes not really in much of a rush to do anything. I would say to look at this for what it was: an opportunity to be the 180Man and no more. In that sense, it looked like you did well. You went to yesterdays meeting down 7 in the bottom of the ninth with nobody on base. Single, Walk, Home run, it doesnt really matter. The rally just gets going by getting men on base.

As for next? Go back to what you were doing. Continue to work on the things you need to work on. Continue to GAL. Continue being dark.

[180Man]

Heres my thought. Im sorry that youre feeling hopeless. It would be unlikely for her to set a coffee date several days or weeks in the future with a plan to reconcile. Honestly, it seems like shes not really in much of a rush to do anything. I would say to look at this for what it was: an opportunity to be the 180Man and no more. In that sense, it looked like you did well. You went to yesterdays meeting down 7 in the bottom of the ninth with nobody on base. Single, Walk, Home run, it doesnt really matter. The rally just gets going by getting men on base.

As for next? Go back to what you were doing. Continue to work on the things you need to work on. Continue to GAL. Continue being dark.

Okay, thanks for your encouragement. You're right, nothing was going to change over a coffee date and I knew that going into it. But I also got a strong sense that she is determined to follow through with what she has decided.

Consequently, I didn't sleep very well at all (sorry about the typos above). I will continue to GAL and stay dark. I have a meeting with my DB coach this afternoon. She mentioned last time about discussing a last resort apology letter and that we would talk about it today. I haven't seen much on here about that?

Thanks again for your help.

[180Man]

Someone suggested to me that I ask her for 3, or perhaps 5, dates. In other words, give me 3 or 5 dates with an open mind and if at the end you're still in doubt, I'll give you a divorce. While this sounds enticing up front, I'm assuming this is a really dumb idea?

[Gordie]

180Man,

The good:

*She initiated contact with you to have coffee.
*She said you looked good.
*She opened up a little and told you some things you didn't know.
*She says she still loves you and cares about you.
*She says she still wants to be your friend.
*You looked good and were positive.
*You validated as best you could.

The bad:

*She is set on D.
*She doesn't have any romantic feelings towards you.
*When she asked what you have been up to lately, you didn't really open up to her at all (your response was generic and didn't include anything about how you are feeling)...so I'm not surprised she didn't open up to you either.

The ugly:

*The story about the lilies. My W has given me stories like this. Small things from literally 10+ years ago that I have no recollection of that have been bothering her for YEARS. Did your W stuff her feelings? Did she avoid conflict? If so, she has 1000+ stories that she hasn't told you. I know this stuff comes across as petty and why are we getting D if this is all there is, but I think you've got to search your soul to determine if there are any nuggets of truth (not listening or valuing your W's opinions or paying attention to the details of her life or giving her gifts that make YOU feel good) that you can acknowledge about yourself. If there's truth there, then it is best for you and your W and your R for you to acknowledge it and, where appropriate, apologize and be the 180Man who can change his ways. This is hard work but all in your power. Practice on family, friends, neighbors. In my case, I am a prideful man, so I know that I'm slow to acknowledge the errors of my ways (I usually think I'm right) and that it takes time for me to get to a place where I am really remorseful. It's not a situation where she says XYZ and I say I'm sorry and it's over. It's one where she says XYZ...and then it takes me weeks or months for it to really sink in...and when I finally get how much it really hurt her, only then does my remorse/apology mean anything to her. There's been a lot of this for me over the past few months and it's definitely helped to heal some old wounds between us.

[doodler]

Someone suggested to me that I ask her for 3, or perhaps 5, dates. In other words, give me 3 or 5 dates with an open mind and if at the end you're still in doubt, I'll give you a divorce. While this sounds enticing up front, I'm assuming this is a really dumb idea?

180Man,

Yes, I think it's a really bad idea. If she wants to divorce you, 3 or 5 or 15 dates won't change anything. And, that's full-on pursuit. Not good.

Find a really fun GAL activity that you enjoy and get your mind off of your marriage for a while. (I know, that's impossible. But I believe in you 180Man, you can do it.)

[Gordie]

It felt like pulling teeth trying to get her to tell me how she FELT.

One more suggestion for you on this front. I'm passing along advice that someone here gave me and it has been a HUGE help. Remember TED: tell me more...explain how...describe what...it takes you out of the conversation...and opens her up...

W: I've been working 60 hours a week. I'm a mess.
180Man: Tell me why work has been so busy OR tell me what you mean by a mess.

W: I want us to be friends after this.
180Man: Explain to me what you mean by friends.

W: We've fallen short as lovers.
180Man: Describe how we've fallen short.

These answers show that you are listening and you want to know MORE about how she is thinking/feeling. It also gets you off the hook of having to provide a response to everything she is saying. When she wants you to talk, she will ask you a question.

[sandi2]

Here's the thing about the coffee meeting. She was ready to announce her intentions to divorce. I don't think there was anything you could have said to change her mind during the meeting. So, don't worry about how well or poorly you rated. FWIW, I think you handled it well. Now what you may not know, is a lingering image of you was left in her mind.

She was not spewing bitter words, nor was she blaming you like others we've seen. The account of the flowers, IMHO, came from you applying a little pressure to give you some example. (B/C you wanted to validate her feelings?! Come on, you got completely off track by pressing her, and you were opening the gate for a possible emotional land side. Luckily, it didn't get too bad). She cannot give you one particular account that she can point to and say, "That is what caused our M to fail". It is the cumulation of things over time.

A wife explains to her H how his choice of flowers cause an allergy reaction. She loves the fact he wanted to give her flowers. Maybe she loves all types of flowers, but there is one type that makes her sick. After she shares this information with her H........he continues to buy the one type that makes her sick. In frustration, she wonders if he hears what she says, or does he even care that he is giving her the type that makes her sick. Why would that be difficult for a man to get it through his head, and next time order something she can enjoy? Then at some time later, that couple is at a coffee shop and he presses her to give him an example of when she her feelings started to change. So, she offers the example about the flowers. His immediate thought was: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? . No, that is not he reason, 180Man!

[180Man]

180Man,

The good:

*She initiated contact with you to have coffee.
*She said you looked good.
*She opened up a little and told you some things you didn't know.
*She says she still loves you and cares about you.
*She says she still wants to be your friend.
*You looked good and were positive.
*You validated as best you could.

The bad:

*She is set on D.
*She doesn't have any romantic feelings towards you.
*When she asked what you have been up to lately, you didn't really open up to her at all (your response was generic and didn't include anything about how you are feeling)...so I'm not surprised she didn't open up to you either.

The ugly:

*The story about the lilies. My W has given me stories like this. Small things from literally 10+ years ago that I have no recollection of that have been bothering her for YEARS. Did your W stuff her feelings? Did she avoid conflict? If so, she has 1000+ stories that she hasn't told you. I know this stuff comes across as petty and why are we getting D if this is all there is, but I think you've got to search your soul to determine if there are any nuggets of truth (not listening or valuing your W's opinions or paying attention to the details of her life or giving her gifts that make YOU feel good) that you can acknowledge about yourself. If there's truth there, then it is best for you and your W and your R for you to acknowledge it and, where appropriate, apologize and be the 180Man who can change his ways. This is hard work but all in your power. Practice on family, friends, neighbors. In my case, I am a prideful man, so I know that I'm slow to acknowledge the errors of my ways (I usually think I'm right) and that it takes time for me to get to a place where I am really remorseful. It's not a situation where she says XYZ and I say I'm sorry and it's over. It's one where she says XYZ...and then it takes me weeks or months for it to really sink in...and when I finally get how much it really hurt her, only then does my remorse/apology mean anything to her. There's been a lot of this for me over the past few months and it's definitely helped to heal some old wounds between us.

It felt like pulling teeth trying to get her to tell me how she FELT.

One more suggestion for you on this front. I'm passing along advice that someone here gave me and it has been a HUGE help. Remember TED: tell me more...explain how...describe what...it takes you out of the conversation...and opens her up...

W: I've been working 60 hours a week. I'm a mess.
180Man: Tell me why work has been so busy OR tell me what you mean by a mess.

W: I want us to be friends after this.
180Man: Explain to me what you mean by friends.

W: We've fallen short as lovers.
180Man: Describe how we've fallen short.

These answers show that you are listening and you want to know MORE about how she is thinking/feeling. It also gets you off the hook of having to provide a response to everything she is saying. When she wants you to talk, she will ask you a question.

Gordie,

Thanks for your responses and helping me to sort through what happened last night. Listing the Good, Bad, and Ugly like that really helped me. Pointing out the good is helpful because those are things I feel I'm overlooking too easily, so it's a good reminder. On the bad, I'm not sure what to do about her wanting D or absence of romantic feelings. LRT is all I can really come up with. As for not opening up to her, I was advised in my last thread to be vague about what I've been doing and let her wonder what I've been up to. But I completely see your point of opening up a little on my end in order to get her to open up a little. Kind of confused a little on this point for next time, if there ever is one. That TED tip is great! Where were you last week?? hah, I will be sure to remember this one.

Thanks for your help and insight.

180Man,

Yes, I think it's a really bad idea. If she wants to divorce you, 3 or 5 or 15 dates won't change anything. And, that's full-on pursuit. Not good.

Find a really fun GAL activity that you enjoy and get your mind off of your marriage for a while. (I know, that's impossible. But I believe in you 180Man, you can do it.)

Yes, you're right. Terrible idea. You're right about the GAL activity. I need to figure out what, though. Open to ideas?!

Here's the thing about the coffee meeting. She was ready to announce her intentions to divorce. I don't think there was anything you could have said to change her mind during the meeting. So, don't worry about how well or poorly you rated. FWIW, I think you handled it well. Now what you may not know, is a lingering image of you was left in her mind.

What would this lingering image be? Good, bad, neither? What does the lingering image do?

She was not spewing bitter words, nor was she blaming you like others we've seen. The account of the flowers, IMHO, came from you applying a little pressure to give you some example. (B/C you wanted to validate her feelings?! Come on, you got completely off track by pressing her, and you were opening the gate for a possible emotional land side. Luckily, it didn't get too bad). She cannot give you one particular account that she can point to and say, "That is what caused our M to fail". It is the cumulation of things over time.

A wife explains to her H how his choice of flowers cause an allergy reaction. She loves the fact he wanted to give her flowers. Maybe she loves all types of flowers, but there is one type that makes her sick. After she shares this information with her H........he continues to buy the one type that makes her sick. In frustration, she wonders if he hears what she says, or does he even care that he is giving her the type that makes her sick. Why would that be difficult for a man to get it through his head, and next time order something she can enjoy? Then at some time later, that couple is at a coffee shop and he presses her to give him an example of when she her feelings started to change. So, she offers the example about the flowers. His immediate thought was: really? this is why we're getting divorced? because I brought you the wrong type of flowers? . No, that is not he reason, 180Man!

Yeah, I see this now. I didn't understand it immediately when she said it, but she added that in the past she didn't think I heard her sometimes or that I didn't always care what she wanted, even if my intentions were good. This is something I needed to hear. I always thought of myself as devoted to her, but I can see instances where I did what I wanted and thought I was doing it for her.

I hate that I allowed her to feel distant enough to feel the way she felt for this to happen. I hate that I allowed her to feel distant enough to feel the way she feels now. I wish we could divorce our situation together and start fresh.