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No she doesn't drink alcohol but this seems even more intoxicating.
Here is some history:
We've been married for 18 years. The marriage has had it's ups and downs and challenges but I've always loved her and I believe she loved me until fairly recently. We were starting to drift apart and about 2 years ago I made the mistake of starting to sleep in another bedroom because I wasn't sleeping well. She had insisted that our dogs sleep on our bed and we were getting into a power struggle over them. In retrospect, I believe moving to another bedroom emotionally upset her but she didn't communicate that to me at the time. Late last year I moved back into the main bedroom but besides some touching and spooning we haven't been intimate.

Early last year she started having contact with her Massage therapist and I intuitively knew something was building but was in some type of denial and didn't address the situation early on. Around Xmas time I discovered phone records that showed she had been texting him very frequently for many months. I accused her then of her either having an emotional affair or a full sexual affair. At that stage she denied having any type of affair and she maintained they were just friends. I insisted on her terminating contact with him but allowed that she continue a 1 day a week language course she had started with him and 2 other people for the remaining several sessions. She agreed to that but I later found out that there were more lies and deceit occurring. The course has now finished.

Things progressed fast this year and she was soon telling me that this guy is very kind and special. In discussions with her she started rewriting our relationship history saying quite negative things and that I haven't been emotionally there for her for years now. She was meanwhile continuing to see this guy behind my back. Basically she's fallen head over heels for this guy and out of love with me, focusing on all the challenging times we've had and none of the good times. She's now in her mid 40's and this all feels like the crazyness of a mid-life crisis mixed up with very strong brain chemicals.

Mentally she has been working towards this split for a while and for her she is certain our marriage is over. I was very regrettably in some type of denial instead of being proactive about our relationship and am now in shock.

On Monday we went to a Marriage Counsellor and my Wife stated clearly that she now wants out of the Marriage. The MC pinpointed her resentment as well as the fact that I was now pushing her away by giving her no space and continually talking about the intoxication and addiction she was experiencing from the brain chemicals. It was a bad day with no clear resolution except for me to back way off as you guys keep recommending in this forum. We both now have one-on-one sessions with the MC scheduled for next week.

I should add another salient point about our marriage. We had always planned to have kids together to add to our blended family (she was a great step-mom to my kids from a previous marriage) but because of life circumstances I kept on delaying that happening. About 8 years ago during a rough patch in our marriage I decided that I no longer wanted more children and told her - fully expecting her to leave the marriage. She chose to stay but I now realize that from that time there was a lot of resentment building and unbenownst to me she was slowly getting angry and hence the falling out of love with me.

Another contributing factor to our deteriorating relationship was my Mother-in-law moved in with us 5 years ago and although a nice lady, I think she's also been angry about not having grand-children and they have gossiped endlessly together to make me the 'bad guy' (they are very close to each other).

I've been extensively reading MWD's and other books as well as browsing in these forums. I REALLY want to save this marriage (even though I know my chances are fading daily), I still love her very much, but I'm not clear on my strategy going forward. I know I have to play for time, rely on the statistics and hope that the affair fizzles but I'm not sure what to do next. She is now going out nearly every night to see him and I think she is ready to move in with him once she sorts out the complication of her Mother. Both her and her Mother have very small incomes (I've always paid the bills) but my Wife would receive a reasonable cash amount in a divorce (further providing incentive for her to terminate this marriage).
All your viewpoints and advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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I've been lurking and reading TONS but will keep on reading more and rereading your excellent articles and posts.

As I said things are moving VERY fast. I prefer to have time to mentally process things but this is going way faster than my pace.
She chose to spend last night and tonight at his place. She says that she needs to get a better feeling of what it would be like to live with him and then she can either terminate the relationship or begin separation or divorce proceedings with me. Although there is a sliver of me still optimistic and in denial I am doubtful she is suddenly going to find something negative about him that she wouldn't just justify away mentally.
I've always said that I'd never do a separation and would just go for divorce but now I'm here I think I have to be ready to choose separation.
So my first question here is - Are there some threads or resources here discussing separation agreements/contracts. Not that I want to get lawyers involved but I'd assume we'd need to agree on the arrangements - do I let her come and go freely from here once she moves in with him etc.
She still has the problem/decision of what to do with her Mom but it looks like her Mom will just resign from her jobs and return to her Husband who she has been separated from for 5 years but they have remained amicable. Although my Wife and her Mom are very close (perhaps codependent) she is justifying this by now saying that she has been too responsible for her Mother for too long.
Amazing how the reasoning changes once under the influence of brain chemicals.

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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


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My Wife and I bought both of those books a few years ago, read them and were impressed -maybe it actually helped at the time. They hlave been in my bedside drawer all this time. So I've pulled them both out and reread the DR one again. My Wife is not in 'Remedy' mode so she's not going to read them again at the moment. Her remedy is a new life with Mr. Wonderful (sorry for sarcasm)

I've also just purchased Healing Infidelity and read the chapter on 'Doing it Alone' but the rest of the book doesn't apply right now.

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Why is it so clear that she get to choose to "end the relationship" or start divorce proceedings"? What are your boundaries? Why are you so willing to be her backup plan?

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Thanks Cadet - reading furiously.

Kaizen,
I am no control over her wanting to 'end the relationship' or not although I'd like her to choose that path. The choice between separation and direct divorce is largely mine if she doesn't end the relationship. And so I'm going to choose separation.
I'm still looking for answers as I asked above on how to form an agreement of separation. Any suggestions/links/threads ??

I don't have a clear boundary yet on how long the separation should last but my hunch is 6 months - hopefully enough time for her to tire of New Guy and at this stage about as much time as I could bear.
I'm not ready to risk losing the marriage yet and so by default I guess I'm providing a back-up plan for her.

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Welcome aboard. Have you read the threads about the mindset of the wayward wife? If so, does it sound as if I am describing your W?

How would you describe the sexual passion in your W throughout the MR? Did your W want a lot of mouth to mouth kisses, or just get on with the sex act?

Why did you feel your W was emotionally upset for you moving back into the MBR? Did the move come before, or after, discovering the OM?

Why did you believe it was alright for her to continue taking a class with OM, if you knew about their affair?

Quote:
I know I have to play for time, rely on the statistics and hope that the affair fizzles but I'm not sure what to do next.


Why do you feel you need to play for more time? Is it b/c you fear she is close to divorcing you? As for relying on statistics............which ones?

Sorry for so many questions. It will help to get your answers and have a clearer view of things. In all honesty, I am wondering about the dynamics in this MR. The two personalities and how they meshed, or if there was a pattern of one person imposing over the other one? Would you describe either of you as leaning toward passivity?

Just from reading two posts, I may be way off track..........however, I tend to think your denial came from a place of passivity. If you didn't recognize your W was in an A, then you didn't have to act on it. Would you agree, or not? And please know that I mean no disrespect or judgement. After living many years with a gentle, loving, good natured, passive man who has the Nice-Guy Syndrome ..............I can usually spot another one.

How would you describe the interaction with you & W when she returns from spending the night with OM?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thanks Sandi for your long detailed post and questions.

Yes I have read about the wayward wife mindset but I'm not sure if she is wayward. She fits the Walkaway wife description - she's been mentally out of this R for a while, but are those 2 types mutually exclusive, can she also be a bit wayward?

The sexual passion was strong and frequent especially in the beginning years but not just straight into sex act - lots of mouth to mouth kissing. But it became a lot less frequent in the last few years and not sufficient for me. This is where passivity has hurt me - instead of proactively working together on this problem I spent more time on my own doing my own things and being in denial of the problem.

She told me after the affair was discovered that she had felt totally rejected when I moved out - I had absolutely no idea, I just thought she didn't like the idea because married people aren't supposed to do that. To me it was a practical solution that I didn't enjoy because of the power struggle of her insisting to have the dogs on the bed and me to have them off. I regret that choice now.
I moved back because my D returned for a visit just before xmas and used that bedroom. I found out about the affair just before my D left but waited until she had left to confront my Wife.

Yes, I waivered on the issue of allowing the class to continue and my passivity issues were definitely evident in that situation. I did think at that time it was an EA and not a PA but that's no excuse. I own and admit to my passivity and think it's insightful of you to pinpoint that.
Yes, the 'playing for more time' comment is based on me reading that only 3-6% of affairs lead to marriage, so I'm believing she is in the grips of the brain chemicals right now and once they wear off and she discovers some of his faults I might be able to save the marriage. I think when she returns tomorrow she'll want to start talking about separation (moving in with him) and that would be her first choice over direct divorce. Her Mom's resignation and leaving will take time and complicates matters for her so she may 'play for time'.

We definitely have/had Power Struggle issues in the R - she would describe me as controlling and I would say the same of her. Yet I also think I have serious Family of Origin passivity issues - a strong domineering Mother and a similar older Sister (4 year age gap).

This statement of yours is spot on: "I tend to think your denial came from a place of passivity. If you didn't recognize your W was in an A, then you didn't have to act on it."
However this was unconscious. There were several red flags looking back eg. starting to use a password on her phone, but somehow none of them prompted me to check the phone bill until close to xmas.

When she returns from seeing him she is quiet and perhaps embarrassed. Hugs and kisses are small and awkward but there is still spooning in the bed. I would say she is conflicted but driven by the chemicals. She can get hard and annoyed when I want 'answers' and 'invade her space' but I'm trying to back way off on this.

Thanks so much for your very insightful questions

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Thanks Sandi for your long detailed post and questions.

Yes I have read about the wayward wife mindset but I'm not sure if she is wayward. She fits the Walkaway wife description - she's been mentally out of this R for a while, but are those 2 types mutually exclusive, can she also be a bit wayward?

The sexual passion was strong and frequent especially in the beginning years but not just straight into sex act - lots of mouth to mouth kissing. But it became a lot less frequent in the last few years and not sufficient for me. This is where my Passivity hurt me. I should have been proactive about solving this problem with her instead I just withdrew into spending more time alone doing my own thing and being in denial.
Serious regrets on my part.

She told me after the affair was discovered that she had felt totally rejected when I moved out - I had absolutely no idea, I just thought she didn't like the idea because married people aren't supposed to do that. To me it was a practical solution that I didn't enjoy because of the power struggle of her insisting to have the dogs on the bed and me to have them off. I regret that choice now.
I moved back because my D returned for a visit just before xmas and used that bedroom. I found out about the affair just before my D left but waited until she had left to confront my Wife.

Yes, I waivered on the issue of allowing the class to continue and my passivity issues were definitely evident in that situation. I did think at that time it was an EA and not a PA but that's no excuse. I own and admit to my passivity and think it's insightful of you to pinpoint that.
Yes, the 'playing for more time' comment is based on me reading that only 3-6% of affairs lead to marriage, so I'm believing she is in the grips of the brain chemicals right now and once they wear off and she discovers some of his faults I might be able to save the marriage. I think when she returns tomorrow she'll want to start talking about separation (moving in with him) and that would be her first choice over divorce. Her Mom's resignation and leaving will take time and complicates matters for her so she may 'play for time'.

We definitely have/had Power Struggle issues in the R - she would describe me as controlling and I would say the same of her. Yet I also think I have serious Family of Origin passivity issues - a strong domineering Mother and a similar older Sister (4 year age gap).

This statement of yours is spot on: "I tend to think your denial came from a place of passivity. If you didn't recognize your W was in an A, then you didn't have to act on it."
However this was unconscious. There were several red flags looking back eg. starting to use a password on her phone, but somehow none of them prompted me to check the phone bill until close to xmas.

When she returns from seeing him she is quiet and perhaps embarrassed. Hugs and kisses are small and awkward but there is still spooning in the bed. I would say she is conflicted but driven by the chemicals. She can get hard and annoyed when I want 'answers' and 'invade her space' but I'm trying to back way off on this.

Thanks so much for your very insightful questions





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I've spent the day rereading Sandi's extensive posts on WW's as well as many other posts.
Yes, I have to admit that my Wife presently has most of those characteristics. So I'm clearer on the diagnosis but I still have to come to terms with the recommended cure ..... tough love.
It's the 'more of the same' aspect that's a problem for me. While I was in my denial I was very detached and doing my own stuff which was a complaint voiced by her often.

So I'm not sure how to act when she returns tomorrow after her weekend fling.

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Quote:
It's the 'more of the same' aspect that's a problem for me. While I was in my denial I was very detached and doing my own stuff which was a complaint voiced by her often.


According to the words written in your recent post, you are concerned about your W seeing "more of the same". Do you give more weight to this, than the betrayal of your WW? I don't really believe that is the case, b/c of the thousands of H's predating you that have made the same statements.

Think for a minute about those times you were doing your stuff and she complained. Were you concerned enough to stop doing your stuff? Were you so afraid of losing her that you immediately went into overdrive, or did you just kind of shrug it off? Currently, the easiest thing to do would be correcting all those things she use to complain about, right? Well, there is a catch.

Currently, her attention is on the OM. Her thoughts and concern is all about herself and OM. This is a woman who could leave her mother homeless, in order to live with OM. That is how wayward wives do! Some WW's even leave their children, in order to continue living a wayward lifestyle. It is gut wrenching to read stories of some WW's actions.

Back when your W wanted more of your time and attention.........making a big 180 on her complaints might have been beneficial to your MR. If she felt you were emotionally disconnected, then no doubt, she knew it before you even took notice. Women are intuitive.

Things have changed now. Her integity, standards, morality/spiritual beliefs, desires, priorities, standards, behavior, etc., have entered the Twilight Zone (chemically induced).......and this is not the girl you fell in love with and married. Although you may hear complaints coming out of her mouth........her motive has long changed from the original. Therefore, if you continue to act as if she is her former self, don't expect positive results from the self she has become. You cannot out wait waywardness in a spouse. Even if this affairs ends, the wayward mindset will likely remain in her, if you choose to use a soft approach with her.

As long as your W has OM in her head/bed...........your concern over her thoughts of you not being attentive/involved enough with her..........is a waste of energy & time.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Thanks so much Sandi for your thoughtful wise post. With all your writing I'm really beginning to understand the WW mindset.

I guess my thinking was to at least have a period in which I could show her that I truly care about her and our relationship. I wanted to show her that I was careless and thoughtless during my denial and that I now understand her aloneness and am sincerely regretful that I didn't take proactive action to improve our R a few years ago. After a reasonable period I would then have a stronger basis to go to plan B - perhaps a 'tough love' scenario.

I see now that I'm not going to get that period.
She has now returned after obviously having a bonding, enjoyable weekend with him. As I predicted she is now saying that perhaps the best for us is to have a legal separation. She repeats that HE loves her very much. I'm obviously quite emotional right now (fingers battling to type) but have managed to appear quite cool and calm (but not smiley).
I've just looked up the statistics on Legal Separations and see that 80% end in divorce. This was unsuprising to me - how can 'not connecting' lead to reconciliation? So if the stats are right the most likely outcome is in many months down the line. Her affair will have failed but also we'll be divorced. ....Sad.

The other thing she asked was 'Why would anyone want to be with someone that is doing what she is doing?' She says if she was in my position she would just get a divorce. I replied that I've always felt that a small part of her actually wants to be abandoned (when she was 2 her Father left her Mother and herself and she's definitely had abandonment issues) and I'm trying my best for that not to happen.
I know this is all WW talk but I thought it might be relevant to finding a solution here.

While I integrate this shock (I'm going for a run when I've finished typing this) any guidance for my next move would be greatly appreciated. Is a Legal Separation not regarded as 'tough love'? Also I'm 95% sure that going direct to divorce would also be acceptable to her although a Separation would be preferable. So I don't even know what tough love would look like right now.
It seems all option doors are closing fast.
Thanks so much.

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Quote:
I guess my thinking was to at least have a period in which I could show her that I truly care about her and our relationship. I wanted to show her that I was careless and thoughtless during my denial and that I now understand her aloneness and am sincerely regretful that I didn't take proactive action to improve our R a few years ago. After a reasonable period I would then have a stronger basis to go to plan B - perhaps a 'tough love' scenario.


I believe your desire to express your love and sincere regret to your W, is natural for a loving H. However, this is not the right time for that particular move. Timing is so critical in relationships..........and most everything in life. Once she is out of her waywardness, you will have the opportunity to share this with her.

Proving your love can come through other actions that, perhaps, reflect a stronger message to the wayward wife. To live with integrity and stand by the values and principles that guide your life, is what's currently needed in you, in order to shine a light for her to find the way back. Prove your love by refusing to compromise with what you believe is unacceptable conduct directed at you, carried out under your roof, within your MR, or targeted at your family.

This is the perfect time to make lifelong changes in yourself. Will it get your M back on the right tract? At first, you may fully doubt it is having a positive effect, but if you won't give up, you will come through the fires feeling stronger and more confident.

Once a wife is wayward, there will be only one thing she will respect in her H...........and that is strength! A woman wants her man to be tougher/stronger than she is, b/c he is the leader, provider and protector over her family. To have authenic attraction for a man who is emotionally weaker, is unlikely. It all boils down to her lack of respect. If she sees her H standing tall and enforcing boundaries, her feelings of respect is stirred. She may initially act angry,, but when she sees she cannot show disrespect .....without consequences.......she will begin to feel some respect for him. Not just as the father of her children, but as a man who will not tolerate her b.s. If she has a sense of entitlement and the H has enabled it, then it will be challenging......yet, fully possible for her to lose her crown of Miss Entitlement and take her place by her H's side. The best place a H could start, is to stop enabling his W in her entitled actions.

The H should establish personal boundaries that will protect his feelings. His W will either honor it, or deal with the consequences. He can use his values, principles, moral/spiritual beliefs as the foundation for his boundaries. I hope you read the link on boundaries in Cadets first post to you. Enforcing boundaries is extremely important, especially if you have a WW. Don't be afraid of them. Boundaries are not about her. It is not used to punish or control her. She has a choice to make. She will either respect the boundary, or she won't. If she chooses to disrespect, then the ball is in your hands. The next action comes from you. How will you follow through and protect yourself?

Reading Vanillia's examples of enforcing her boundaries are priceless, IMHO. She is class all the way!


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Originally Posted By: Searchr

I am no control over her wanting to 'end the relationship' or not although I'd like her to choose that path. The choice between separation and direct divorce is largely mine if she doesn't end the relationship. And so I'm going to choose separation.

My question was maybe a little different. When you make your opinions so clear, it removes any incentive for her to consider changing her course. As Sandi said above, a WW is only going to respect strength. And when she is in an affair and youre saying, "Ill be here waiting if you decide to end it. I love you no matter what.", thats kind of the opposite of strength. Giving her that power and making it clear that she has that power removes any kind of consequence to her actions. So, my question is more, why are you making it evident that she is the one with the decision? You each have a decision that you should be constantly evaluating.

Originally Posted By: Searchr

I'm not ready to risk losing the marriage yet and so by default I guess I'm providing a back-up plan for her.

Read this again and again until you see why it makes no sense. Youre not ready to 'risk losing the marriage'. Your W is off in an affair with another man. What marriage do you have, right now to risk losing? Why do you have to settle for being her plan B when she's your only plan?

My advice? Become your OWN plan A. Invest in you. Let the relationship shift to the back burner and get yourself healthy.

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Continuing from earlier post........If there is one common thread that I have observed in M's with a WW, it's their H's with NGS. I have lived it, witnessed it IRL since I was a child, and have read about it for the past ten years right here on the board. I am of the opinion that this is not coincidental, but is in fact, one of the main factors that distinguishes the wayward wife from the WAW.

Quote:
The other thing she asked was 'Why would anyone want to be with someone that is doing what she is doing?' She says if she was in my position she would just get a divorce.


Exactly! That is a key difference I have found in men with NGS and their WW's. When my adult daughter busted me, she made a profound statement. "If this was reversed and it was Dad, you know you would not have put up with it for a minute". I immediately agreed, b/c I know myself.

Your own WW knows she is not treating you right. If the roles were reversed, she knows she would not tolerate you having an affair and treating her the way she is currently treating you. She is trying to tell you, "What self-respecting man would want to be with a woman who treats him like cr@p"? Can you see how it deleats her respect function? A woman's ability to feel in love...is tied to her feelings of respect.

Quote:
how can 'not connecting' lead to reconciliation?


B/c you waited too long to put forth the necessary effort for an emotional connection when she wanted it, and now she is completely resistant to a connection with you. She cannot be in love with two men at the same time. She cannot emotionally connect with a H she doesn't respect, while she's in an affair.

Physical separation is not an automatic death sentence for the M. It's better than going straight for D. I hope you will stop looking at statistics, and take decisive action you need to take.

Quote:
I replied that I've always felt that a small part of her actually wants to be abandoned (when she was 2 her Father left her Mother and herself and she's definitely had abandonment issues) and I'm trying my best for that not to happen.


Please don't think I am trying to be rude, b/c that is not my intentions. Those type of responses to a wayward wife are seen as weak/passive. If I could read her mind, I'd suggest she was thinking, "This has nothing to do with my father"! Perhaps I am projecting, from my own experience. When my H first confronted me about my A, he said, "What if your dad was here and knew what you've done"? (My father is deceased and my H knew how much I respected him). Upon hearing my H say those words, I was furious and threw back to him......."Don't you dare bring my dad into this"! I saw what my H said as a passive, cheap-shot at trying to play on my feelings for my deceased father, to do the work for him.

Another thing to avoid are statements that tend to have a self-righteous ring. When I arrived here in 2007 with my wayward self, there were a few LBH'S who could really grate against my wayward temperament. I thought the whole lot of them sounded self-righteous. smile


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Hello Searchr,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

It sounds like your wife is cake eating. She is keeping you around as plan B while she continues to do as she pleases without consequences.

What were you like when the two of you got together? How have you changed?

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy

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A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
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Thankyou Sandi and Kaizen for pointing out my passivity. I appreciate your input as it's important that I keep reminding myself of my tendency to passivity. I do fully own my passivity and can confirm many instances in life where it has hindered me for example parenting of my (now adult) adolescent strong willed daughter was far from optimal and most probably still affects our relationship today.
Having said that, I can also be quite aggressive (not just passive-aggressive which I've worked to improve for a long time) especially in my career.

The one thing I do notice in this forum is a general split between the strong tough love attitude (which I can see has been programmed into our genes - the cave woman, seeking out the strongest guy to procreate with, is still part of a WW) versus the softer approach (which is natural for 'passives' like me). I just can't see going the tough love route when I am clear I don't want a divorce. It's like setting a boundary without a real consequence.

I've reread Cadet's thread on Boundaries and am listening to the audio book Boundaries by Cloud.

My Wife is sleeping at the OM's place again tonight. She asked me in a round about way about spending a week with him at his place. There seems a bit of a Parent/child relationship with the question, yet she does her own thing. I replied that I neither want to enable or disable her decision making but this behavior really hurts me and makes me feel sick and sad.


It looks like the possibility of a separation is getting very close.
I live in a state that doesn't recognize legal separation but I guess that doesn't stop putting our own agreement together to separate for a period. I asked in an earlier post - is there any resources anyone can point to when drafting up such an arrangement? Also, is there a list of considerations to take into account when agreeing on such an arrangement?

One of my choices will be to allow or not allow her Mother to live here at the outset (longer term I'm sure she'd want to make her own arrangements elsewhere) while my Wife lives with the OM. She does pay a small contribution for Rent. That might sound passive but remember that my goal is to save my marriage and begin our new relationship with as little scars as possible. I don't want to make enemies of family. Also, my Wife has to transport her around to various baby-sitting jobs and perhaps it's not a bad thing for her to keep being reminded about the nice home she is leaving behind to go live in an apartment with her lover.

Cristy thanks for the post, I might be contacting you soon.

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Originally Posted By: Searchr
I replied that I neither want to enable or disable her decision making but this behavior really hurts me and makes me feel sick and sad.

So your plan is to mope and hope she changes her mind?

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Quote:
I just can't see going the tough love route when I am clear I don't want a divorce. It's like setting a boundary without a real consequence


How exactly do you see "the tough love route"?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Kaizen, so you didn't like that reply? The way I saw it was the little girl in her wanted my approval (i.e. to enable her) and the little rebel in her wanted me to disapprove (i.e. disable).
So how would you have replied?

Regarding moping, no I'm not - I'm quite busy with jobs around the house and catching up on a reading backlog.

Regarding hope - yes, until I am divorced I choose to remain hopeful.

And can ANYONE answer my questions about Separation: "I asked in an earlier post - is there any resources anyone can point to when drafting up such an arrangement? Also, is there a list of considerations to take into account when agreeing on such an arrangement?"

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Can't help you with S resources. If she's going for LS, you probably need a lawyer.

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just can't see going the tough love route when I am clear I don't want a divorce. It's like setting a boundary without a real consequence


The above statement makes me ask again.......what is your definition of tough love?


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This weekend I'll download a LS document from the internet, modify it and will have to contact a lawyer next week to check/ratify it. We are at the stage of agreeing to a 6 month separation and already discussing who gets what furniture. Sadly, the chances of saving this marriage seem to be rapidly declining.

I wasn't really looking for legal documentation but pointers as to what to agree upon when discussing a separation. For example access to the home, coming and going arrangements, communication arrangements etc. I would have thought a lot of people here would have dealt with these issues and could point me to a list of things to consider?

My big problem with separation is that for a Marriage to survive there must be connection & communication and separation doesn't seem to offer any of that. Is there any way to build in say periodic scheduled meetings/get-togethers to discuss emotions or progress.
I'm trying to maximize my small chances of still saving this marriage.

Sorry Sandi I didn't address your previous question about my definition of 'tough love' - most likely because firstly that's a typically passive thing to do (avoidance) and secondly, I'm not that clear on it and I'm using it as a label for actions that 'feel' harsh to a passive guy like myself. I keep rereading your powerful writing and advice yet I have this natural aversion to this 'strength' you are trying to guide me towards. I'm really discovering how deep my passivity is.
For example, last night she went out and said she'd be back just after 10pm but then ended up visiting the boyfriend and coming back at 11:30pm. I was angry but conscious of my anger and ended up expressing my anger by using the words 'that's really not fair' messing me around like that. Pretty passive I'd say.
How would a 'strong' guy act in that situation?

It seems I'm constantly behind the 8 ball because now we are going the separation route and it didn't come about through my strength but rather her demands - separation or divorce, and quickly Mister!

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Originally Posted By: Searchr
I'm really discovering how deep my passivity is.
For example, last night she went out and said she'd be back just after 10pm but then ended up visiting the boyfriend and coming back at 11:30pm. I was angry but conscious of my anger and ended up expressing my anger by using the words 'that's really not fair' messing me around like that. Pretty passive I'd say.
How would a 'strong' guy act in that situation?


By going to bed and not giving a sh!t... I'm not one to talk, I'm also naturally a conflict avoider/pleaser/fixer, and have had Sandi shaking her head at me many times.

Did her staying out late impact you? If not, just ignore it, get on with your own life. Don't even ask her what time she will be back. If you want to go to bed, go to bed. If you want to do something else, do something else.

A strong guy would not tolerate his W being with OM, and then only grumbling about the time she came home. Do you have to share a bed with her? Do you have children? If yes, can you move her things out of the MBR without causing a riot? If not, move her things out of the MBR, tell her you're not going to sleep with someone who is involved with OM. Don't let her force you to make any decisions with S or D. Just tell her she can drive that particular bus and go whichever route she wants.

I am terrible with boundaries, and the more I analyse myself the more I find it to be rooted in my childhood. I also can't let go, so if she reaches out physically, I respond. If it was a PA rather than an EA, that would be different for me - I already told her that if she met the OP, then I would consider us done. That's the only boundary that I can see she has taken seriously so far. How are you with boundaries?

Now as for that advice - I would probably be terrible at enforcing it. Maybe. I have been married before, when I was 23. I found out my W had an affair while I was away in the US on a business trip. We argued, tried MC, she moved out for a trial sep, and on the first night had OM's car parked outside. I blew, phoned OM's wife, and filed for D. I wasn't messing back then. I was gutted, devastated, angry, but I wasn't messing. So maybe the 46 yr old me needs to get back in touch with the 27 year old me.

Do you have a stronger, younger self that you need to get back in touch with?


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Originally Posted By: Searchr
Kaizen, so you didn't like that reply? The way I saw it was the little girl in her wanted my approval (i.e. to enable her) and the little rebel in her wanted me to disapprove (i.e. disable).
So how would you have replied?


I would have looked at her and said "I think thats incredibly inappropriate" and gone on with what I was doing. No permission. No denying. No wimpy talks about how hurt it left me. Just my opinion on the subject. If she pressed me for more, Id say I wasnt interested in discussing her relationship with another man.

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Originally Posted By: Searchr

It seems I'm constantly behind the 8 ball because now we are going the separation route and it didn't come about through my strength but rather her demands - separation or divorce, and quickly Mister!


Hello Searchr,

Why are you doing the heavy lifting when it comes to the separation agreement? If she wants it, she needs to jump through the hoops to make it happen. Having said that, it is still a good idea to consult your lawyer so you are aware of your rights and can protect yourself and your assets. Don't tell her that you are speaking with a lawyer. You are just gathering info at this point.

Woke_up is right about the MBR and sharing a bed. I know, easier said than done.

The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004

Cristy
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A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

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Quote:
I wasn't messing back then. I was gutted, devastated, angry, but I wasn't messing.


"Messing".........I think that is a very good word to described what is seen in many stitches of LBH'S who have a wayward wife. Based on the very few posts of WW's who were yanked back to their senses and came here looking for advice.......they, too, had H's who weren't messing........and it quickly changed the dynamics.


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Thanks for the comments Woke_Up. Yes, we are still using the MBR together. That tactic of moving her belongings out of the room would definitely not work - she would create a lot of drama and just return to the bed.
I certainly could have just gone to sleep and then been awoken (if I had fallen asleep) when she returned. I'd still be faced with communicating in a STRONG manner that it was unfair/unreasonable/unacceptable behavior etc.

As far as a stronger, younger self goes I've never been even close to this situation before. I thought that I definitely would be strong and terminate the marriage immediately should such a thing happen but when the real life event occurred I felt totally different.
I hear what you say about 'no messing' and perhaps I'll still get to that stage. Right now things are moving so fast it's quite difficult to be in command of anything.


Cristi, the reason I'm doing the 'heavy lifting' in drawing up the separation contract is a matter of control - I feel I have more control if I draw it up. She is in such a rush to begin her new life (the addictive behavior of her constantly wanting to be with OM is astounding) that if I didn't do anything, she would just do it herself in a forceful manner.


Any takers on my other questions about a Separation Agreement?
I'm referring to pointers as to what to agree upon when discussing a separation. For example access to the home, coming and going arrangements, communication arrangements etc.
Is there any way to build in say periodic scheduled meetings/get-togethers to discuss emotions or progress.

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So I've spent the morning looking at sample Separation Agreements and I see they all just stick to the legalities of property transfer, alimony, treatment of children (not applicable in my case because my kids are adults) etc.
So the questions I was asking above obviously doesn't apply to the Separation Agreement.

But couples still need some arrangements/boundaries in place during a Separation - access to home to fetch furniture, possessions and other agreements that I'm sure I haven't even thought about yet.
Or am I making too big of a deal of these things? Surely there should be at least a word of mouth agreement?

And I guess my idea of periodic scheduled check-ins to discuss emotions and progress is just dreaming on my part? (even though that is my biggest problem with a separation - no ability to connect and remind each other of our shared history).

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Originally Posted By: Searchr
No she doesn't drink alcohol but this seems even more intoxicating.
Here is some history:
We've been married for 18 years. The marriage has had it's ups and downs and challenges but I've always loved her and I believe she loved me until fairly recently. We were starting to drift apart and about 2 years ago I made the mistake of starting to sleep in another bedroom because I wasn't sleeping well. She had insisted that our dogs sleep on our bed and we were getting into a power struggle over them.

Any chance you were punishing her for the power struggle? Just asking.


In retrospect, I believe moving to another bedroom emotionally upset her but she didn't communicate that to me at the time.

What did you think?


Late last year I moved back into the main bedroom but besides some touching and spooning we haven't been intimate.


Did you ever discuss the lack of intimacy? Or the feeling of a power struggle in bed?



Early last year she started having contact with her Massage therapist and I intuitively knew something was building but was in some type of denial and didn't address the situation early on. Around Xmas time I discovered phone records that showed she had been texting him very frequently for many months. I accused her then of her either having an emotional affair or a full sexual affair. At that stage she denied having any type of affair and she maintained they were just friends. I insisted on her terminating contact with him but allowed that she continue a 1 day a week language course she had started with him and 2 other people for the remaining several sessions. She agreed to that but I later found out that there were more lies and deceit occurring. The course has now finished.

Things progressed fast this year and she was soon telling me that this guy is very kind and special. In discussions with her she started rewriting our relationship history saying quite negative things and that I haven't been emotionally there for her for years now. She was meanwhile continuing to see this guy behind my back. Basically she's fallen head over heels for this guy and out of love with me, focusing on all the challenging times we've had and none of the good times. She's now in her mid 40's and this all feels like the crazyness of a mid-life crisis mixed up with very strong brain chemicals.

What chemicals? Are you talking about drugs, meds, or that you think she's crazy to want OM?


Mentally she has been working towards this split for a while and for her she is certain our marriage is over. I was very regrettably in some type of denial instead of being proactive about our relationship and am now in shock.


This^^ is significant. You have used the terms "in denial" at least 3 times.

How do you tend to handle conflict, in general?



On Monday we went to a Marriage Counsellor and my Wife stated clearly that she now wants out of the Marriage. The MC pinpointed her resentment as well as the

fact that I was now pushing her away by giving her no space and continually talking about the intoxication and addiction she was experiencing from the brain chemicals.

This ^^ strikes me as you dismissing her feelings (or anything you may have done or not done). Do you get what I mean? And, how has this summary worked for you thus far?


It was a bad day with no clear resolution except for me to back way off as you guys keep recommending in this forum. We both now have one-on-one sessions with the MC scheduled for next week.

I should add another salient point about our marriage. We had always planned to have kids together to add to our blended family (she was a great step-mom to my kids from a previous marriage) but because of life circumstances I kept on delaying that happening.

oh yikes



About 8 years ago during a rough patch in our marriage I decided that I no longer wanted more children and told her - fully expecting her to leave the marriage. She chose to stay but I now realize that from that time there was a lot of resentment building and unbenownst to me she was slowly getting angry and hence the falling out of love with me.


Searchr
This Is not just a "salient point". It's huge. So, If I understand correctly, you mean she would never carry a child, or give birth, or nurse or raise her own child. B/c you delayed and then refused her this experience. And you denied her this "Fully" expecting a divorce, but you did it anyhow? Ouch...

My heart aches for her.

I'm so Sorry but I think you glossed over this and continue to do so, at your peril.


Another contributing factor to our deteriorating relationship was my Mother-in-law moved in with us 5 years ago and although a nice lady, I think she's also been angry about not having grand-children and they have gossiped endlessly together to make me the 'bad guy' (they are very close to each other).


I've been extensively reading MWD's and other books as well as browsing in these forums. I REALLY want to save this marriage (even though I know my chances are fading daily), I still love her very much, but I'm not clear on my strategy going forward.

Start by owning your role in this. It's not easy and it can feel deeply devastating. But it's key.




I know I have to play for time, rely on the statistics and hope that the affair fizzles but I'm not sure what to do next. She is now going out nearly every night to see him and I think she is ready to move in with him once she sorts out the complication of her Mother. Both her and her Mother have very small incomes (I've always paid the bills) but my Wife would receive a reasonable cash amount in a divorce (further providing incentive for her to terminate this marriage).
All your viewpoints and advice would be greatly appreciated.


I don't know where you live or what the laws say. Nor do we know what the OM earns and if he's really up for having a girlfriends mother moving in...

Working on yourself (becoming the best Searchr that you can be). And detaching (b/c you won't back off if you keep your focus on her only) is a start. Plus it's all you control right now. Follow the DB rules as outlined by Sandi.

GAL and contrast her negative images of you with NEW DIFFERENT BEHAVIORS...

These are 180's. If you are never on time, become Mr. Punctual. Wear different clothes, cologne, etc.

Do not fuel her negative images of you, with more anger or control or condemning her, or saying she's addicted or crazy, etc.

I don't know of any WAS who has returned to a m and stayed, by being shamed.


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Originally Posted By: Searchr

Thanks for the comments Woke_Up. Yes, we are still using the MBR together. That tactic of moving her belongings out of the room would definitely not work - she would create a lot of drama and just return to the bed.
I certainly could have just gone to sleep and then been awoken (if I had fallen asleep) when she returned. I'd still be faced with communicating in a STRONG manner that it was unfair/unreasonable/unacceptable behavior etc.

As far as a stronger, younger self goes I've never been even close to this situation before. I thought that I definitely would be strong and terminate the marriage immediately should such a thing happen but when the real life event occurred I felt totally different.
I hear what you say about 'no messing' and perhaps I'll still get to that stage. Right now things are moving so fast it's quite difficult to be in command of anything.


Cristi, the reason I'm doing the 'heavy lifting' in drawing up the separation contract is a matter of control - I feel I have more control if I draw it up
.

Has she mentioned any control issues with you? The idea of you drawing it up and asking us for help when you don't want the divorce, screams control. TBH, a lot of what you wrote in your first post raised that issue for me. In any event, I don't think it serves you well at all.



She is in such a rush to begin her new life (the addictive behavior of her constantly wanting to be with OM is astounding) that if I didn't do anything, she would just do it herself in a forceful manner.

Well, so what? Then see a L if she does. She cannot make you sign it.




Any takers on my other questions about a Separation Agreement?
I'm referring to pointers as to what to agree upon when discussing a separation. For example access to the home, coming and going arrangements, communication arrangements etc.
Is there any way to build in say periodic scheduled meetings/get-togethers to discuss emotions or progress
.


No

you cannot force her to do or feel or say anything. And she will not "discuss emotions or progress" with you BECAUSE of a document you write.

This^^ feels like it's about you & control, again.

This is a very hard lesson to learn, but Searchr, she is not in your control.

I know that is painful and that you are reeling. But the first thing to do is take a deep breath and CALM down.

You are so busy reacting to what you think she is feeling or doing, that you are not even admitting that you have some things in your own sandbox that only you can work on.

You cannot get in her sandbox now, b/c frankly, it's hers.

Here's a question. If your wife were here what would she say?


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Thanks for your extensive input 25yearsmic. Yes I'm reeling. Yes I have control issues along with my Passivity issues.

The Power Struggle over the dogs wasn't handled well by either of us. Quite childish. I did try to discuss it and the lack of intimacy several times but I regret not insisting on some Counseling for both of us over that issue.

When I refer to chemicals, no she isn't on any meds, drugs or alcohol, I mean the dopamine, PEA, cortisol and other stuff that is changing her behavior. I've stopped using the word intoxication now but I was trying to communicate with her that she wasn't making sensible decisions and wasn't properly in control - yes, a little bit crazy.
You are right that my summary/model of brain chemicals being the problem hasn't helped me in my cause (but I do believe that this largely comes down to such biology).

Regarding the 'salient point' (yes a huge understatement) - my heart also aches for her regarding this. But what was I supposed to do - be SUPER PASSIVE and have a child that I didn't want. Please acknowledge that there were 2 parties in that huge decision.

Mentioning 'denial' 3 times I'm sure IS significant and it definitely indicates unconscious passivity which I own. I think the reason I'm focused on this denial is the thought in my head that keeps replaying - "if only I had opened my eyes to some of these signs only 6 months ago I could have stopped this all in it's tracks. Grrrr". Yes, I know - that inner critic isn't helpful but he's pretty noisy while I'm under stress like this.

No, I don't particularly like conflict but I'm not the type to just button my lips and never assert myself.

I am 'owning my role in this'. It is devastating. I know I've made some huge mistakes. I'm already not the same guy I was just a few months ago.

Yes....deep breath.

Seems like I'm learning stuff by the hour - I get now that my WW will not "discuss emotions or progress" with me BECAUSE of a document I write. My intention was sincere - I guess I'm resisting the 'forced dis-connection' part of Separation.


So I'm still working on the Separation document and integrating this crazy idea of not connecting with her, yet hoping that the marriage might still be saved.
What are peoples suggestions regarding the duration of the contract - pro's and cons of say 6 months vs 12 months separation?

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Originally Posted By: Searchr
Thanks for your extensive input 25yearsmic. Yes I'm reeling. Yes I have control issues along with my Passivity issues.


The Power Struggle over the dogs wasn't handled well by either of us. Quite childish. I did try to discuss it and the lack of intimacy several times but I regret not insisting on some Counseling for both of us over that issue.

Well, you could have gotten counseling yourself...just saying. frown


When I refer to chemicals, no she isn't on any meds, drugs or alcohol, I mean the dopamine, PEA, cortisol and other stuff that is changing her behavior.

do you see how you are not factoring in anything you have done or are doing, with this statement? You are placing the responsibility on her AND OR some odd random chemical event.

What if, JUST hypothetically, her decision makes total sense?

What if you are controlling and critical and there is no intimacy and there are a ton of unresolved issues, including her feeling forced to give up motherhood?

What would that mean? See, I think it's not all bad. I think there is some good news b/c it means you can change some of the realities by changing yourself.

Let's face it, If your summary up there is accurate, there is literally nothing you can do and you are powerless.



I've stopped using the word intoxication now but I was trying to communicate with her that she wasn't making sensible decisions and wasn't properly in control - yes, a little bit crazy.


So, she's "not properly in control"...and she doesn't make any sense. cry


How did you think dismissing her feelings and thoughts would help the situation? Isn't it more of the same?

Can you really imagine a scenario in which that would cause her to she slap her forehead and say "you're right. Forget what I said/felt." ??


You are right that my summary/model of brain chemicals being the problem hasn't helped me in my cause (but I do believe that this largely comes down to such biology).

Okayyyy...so, you are powerless to do anything in your life.

Nothing you can change in you or your sandbox. Doesn't that seem like more passivity on your end? The whole m is now on HER TO CHANGE, not you...


Regarding the 'salient point' (yes a huge understatement) - my heart also aches for her regarding this. But what was I supposed to do - be SUPER PASSIVE and have a child that I didn't want. Please acknowledge that there were 2 parties in that huge decision.

Absolutely There are 2 parties. But the original plan was to have children. You unilaterally changed that "contract". She got no vote. YOU made the choice, not as a couple.

Another option would have been that yes, you give her something very important b/c you love HER, and then you'd man up to raise and love the child.

Admittedly I'm a mother, so I come from that perspective. But our first born was not planned, by a long shot.

It took all of 5 minutes of shock and fear, to convert into delight...


Mentioning 'denial' 3 times I'm sure IS significant and it definitely indicates unconscious passivity which I own. I think the reason I'm focused on this denial is the thought in my head that keeps replaying - "if only I had opened my eyes to some of these signs only 6 months ago I could have stopped this all in it's tracks. Grrrr". Yes, I know - that inner critic isn't helpful but he's pretty noisy while I'm under stress like this.

No, I don't particularly like conflict but I'm not the type to just button my lips and never assert myself.


I think my question was not if you "liked" conflict but how you handled it. I don't know many people who like it. What do the above comments about the dogs and having a child tell you?


I am 'owning my role in this'. It is devastating. I know I've made some huge mistakes. I'm already not the same guy I was just a few months ago.


It's very painful....so, can you elaborate on what changes you sense in you?


Yes....deep breath.

Seems like I'm learning stuff by the hour - I get now that my WW will not "discuss emotions or progress" with me BECAUSE of a document I write.

My intention was sincere - I guess I'm resisting the 'forced dis-connection' part of Separation.


because it feels counter-intuitive. You want to fix this NOW. But you cannot. All you can work on is you.

Take that ^^ last sentence IN...


So I'm still working on the Separation document


Why? Why are you working on it, at all? Think hard about this.


and integrating this crazy idea of not connecting with her, yet hoping that the marriage might still be saved.
What are peoples suggestions regarding the duration of the contract - pro's and cons of say 6 months vs 12 months separation?



I think you are resisting a lot of the advice you are getting here. Nothing you write will fix this.

I don't think you should write this "Code of Conduct" separation agreement at all. For one thing, it reeks of control. Secondly, you are taking the lead in the separation now, which you don't even want.

If you fear she will steal or waste assets, you can protect yourself from that without drafting a document for her to sign.

If she gets one for you to sign, THEN we can help you address your concerns.
She would not be writing anything in stone that you will be forced to sign or follow.
You cannot be forced to sign it...

Did you read the DB books? This would make more sense if you had and if you have, then maybe read some of it again. It's not easy to take it all in the first read through. It's a unique approach.

Hang in there.


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Searchr

here are some tips that might help you for now..

Back off trying to change how she sees things and back off trying to change her mind. The more you challenge her choices, the more she will defend them.

Do not take any moves that move the D along.

And when you are with or near your w:


Listen, listen and listen. Do not react until you have taken some deep breaths and then red-cap anything that you're not sure of.

Like "so w, if I hear you correctly, you're saying that you wanted X and Y, but don't feel as if you can attain those now. Is that what you meant?

(Then let her speak again. Mind you, SHE will be talking more than you - b/c you are on a recon mission, okay?)

So the more she talks, the better.

If she says "So, H, all those flaws of yours prevent us from staying m",

you can say something like "I can see why you'd feel that way. And I'm so sorry that I hurt you then."

It's not about an equal blame or a mutual pain score. Why are you owning the blame now? Because You're the one here trying to save your m, and she's not.

If you ever make it to piecing, then you can address your own unmet needs within the m. We can help with that.

Another comment you might make to wife is "W, if I had to do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

This^^ indicates you recognize that you have work to do, that you get it, but you're not being a doormat. But do not show that you have any expectations

and if you can manage it, do not have any inside you either.

Do DB basics, with an upbeat attitude and dressier clothes and a bit of cologne. As if you are about to go out and do something super fun.

And please GAL...GAL GAL- especially with a new or different activity or study, etc.
Something you always wanted to do...

1) I don't think you can detach without GAL -and detachment reduces your pain AND will help you with other choices.

2) you cannot appear to have changed if all the behaviors are the same.

3) it makes you more interesting as a partner

4) it will help you get through this, no matter what happens.

Finally, Having no expectations is not the same as having no hope.


Hang in there.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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25yearsmic, you are making some excellent points. Also, amongst the truth that you write about (which stings by the way) I can certainly hear your kindness and concern. Thankyou.

Yes, I do have resistance to some of your suggestions even though I can see that it is rooted in my control issues.

Sorry, but I'm going to pass on your advice on not writing the Separation agreement. I know my Wife well enough that if I don't do it she will steam ahead and likely have a lawyer doing it and things could get out of control very quickly. Sorry to all the lawyers on the board but I'm going to make it as simple as possible. Yes, I might still lose control when she takes it to a lawyer and they advise her on changes. But sometimes being in control and leading the process can work out well.
I've realized now that there will be no 'Code of conduct' in the contract - just a straight forward legal contract. Another point - lawyers cost money, lot's of money when things get messier.

As for the rest of your advice I think it's golden and will reread this more than once.
Of course reading isn't enough - active LISTENING, backing off trying to change her mind etc is now going to be my main course of action. The sad thing though is she is already spending a lot of time with OM (often overnight) and we'll soon be separated so I'm not going to get much opportunity to employ your good advice.

I agree with your GAL advice as well (as per DB and yes I have read the books and keep referring back to them). The funny thing is during my period of denial I was starting to do things that I had put on the back-burner for years eg. studying for a Pilot's license, going on a sailing trip with a couple of guy friends. My Wife just took that as more proof of my disconnection from the marriage. So I'm not too sure that it will work now in my favor regarding the Marriage. But I agree I have to GAL anyway.

As per your great last line - I remain hopeful but not expectant of a positive outcome.

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Originally Posted By: Searchr

Sorry, but I'm going to pass on your advice on not writing the Separation agreement. I know my Wife well enough that if I don't do it she will steam ahead and likely have a lawyer doing it and things could get out of control very quickly. Sorry to all the lawyers on the board but I'm going to make it as simple as possible. Yes, I might still lose control when she takes it to a lawyer and they advise her on changes. But sometimes being in control and leading the process can work out well.
I've realized now that there will be no 'Code of conduct' in the contract - just a straight forward legal contract. Another point - lawyers cost money, lot's of money when things get messier.

Im trying to understand your logic here, but Im having a difficult time. What exactly is your intent in writing this separation agreement?

1) To save the lawyer fees?
2) To have control over the language?
3) As a way of showing your support to your W?
4) Something else?

Honestly, none of these make a lot of sense to me. Honestly, Im not sure how much legality it really has if you do agree on something. What happens if she signs it and then breaks one of the things in the agreement? Will you actually have the correct language that you can enforce it? Also, if I were her, theres no way in hell Im signing it before taking it to a lawyer, and they are going to want to rewrite it anyway.

And if it's the third thing, then I just dont see it being anything that moves the needle. In my mind, if I would have wanted the divorce, I would have done something to help move it forward. Since I had no interest in it, I let my ex do the lifting, and then I reviewed it and we compromised where necessary. I dont see how taking it over does anything but show that you want the divorce. If you dont, then I would let her do it.

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I also live in a state that does not recognize legal separation. WH and I did a notarized property settlement agreement outlining distribution of property, support payments, custody arrangements, etc., as part of the filing process, but it is totally unenforceable by the judge until written into the final decree and signed.


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Quote:
Another point - lawyers cost money, lot's of money when things get messier.


Yes, yes they do. But the good ones will work for you and your best interests. As was evident in what I walked away with.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Kaizen,
This is more of a property settlement agreement like annab74 described above. As I understand it, once the property distribution etc. is clearly laid out in this Contract there is no reason for the Divorce Judge to change any terms and the Divorce can proceed smoothly.

Your No. 2 description is about the closest intent but it's more than that. Both my Wife and I have had bad experiences with lawyers and so we are trying to do this amicably with minimal lawyer involvement. To me there is a big difference between the following:
1.She goes to a lawyer who draws up and agreement and then my lawyer picks it apart and it goes back and forward in an advesorial manner.
2.We draw up an agreement (I am using a template downloaded from a law website eg. www.uslegalforms.com) (yes I will do the editing) that we both agree on. Then we go to a lawyer who spells out what each clause means and what we are each giving up in the contract.
Surely, no. 2 will have a better outcome? Yes, when we go to the lawyer he may raise fears in either one of us and we end up reverting to no. 1 anyway. That's a risk but the optmistic outcome is that it goes smoothly, we both sign off on it and it's settled.

In answer to your questions:
"What happens if she signs it and then breaks one of the things in the agreement?"
We'd have to deal with that even if it was drawn up by a lawyer.
"Will you actually have the correct language that you can enforce it?"
When we take it to a lawyer he should confirm this.

I do understand psychologically, perhaps unconsciously it appears that I'm signalling I also want a divorce. All I can do in that regard is keep saying explicitly that I want to save our marriage and I don't think this is the right thing and it particularly concerns me that we will have little contact once the separation begins. Of course I have to say that without 'pleading' and looking weak.

Jeep - You sound very happy with your settlement which leads me to believe the other party wasn't so happy which just bolsters my argument about lawyers.

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Meanwhile.....
As I continue practicing DB principles of GAL and appearing upbeat and positive, I'm finding it quite difficult to not show disapproval regarding her behavior. She is now spending many nights with OM at his apartment and when she returns each time I find it quite awkward (I'm sure she does too). My natural inclination is to show disapproval, but I know I'm meant to appear confident, polite and agreeable and engrossed in my own activities but that all feels quite false and difficult to 'act'.

Does anyone have pointers or example comentary/conversation in this regard?

Another example is at the evening meal (the Wife, the MIL and myself continue on most evenings to eat a meal together at the dinner table). How do you make light polite conversation about nothing important when there is this big elephant in the room?

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Originally Posted By: Searchr
My natural inclination is to show disapproval, but I know I'm meant to appear confident, polite and agreeable and engrossed in my own activities but that all feels quite false and difficult to 'act'.


Searchr,

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's not DB, but if my wife were spending many nights with the OM, I don't think I'd be showing disapproval. I think I'd be booting her out the door. But alas, maybe there's something I don't understand.

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Originally Posted By: doodler


Searchr,

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's not DB, but if my wife were spending many nights with the OM, I don't think I'd be showing disapproval. I think I'd be booting her out the door. But alas, maybe there's something I don't understand.



That is my thought too. Why is WW able to go spend the night with OM and then come home and have dinner with her husband anyway? As LBS, we are often guilty of grasping for any crumbs of time and attention we can get, but all that does is increase the disrespect the WS has for us. You can't control WW's actions, but you can control your response to them. While she is acting out, she should not be getting all the rights of privileges of being your wife when she decides to come home and grace you with her presence.


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Originally Posted By: doodler

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's not DB, but if my wife were spending many nights with the OM, I don't think I'd be showing disapproval. I think I'd be booting her out the door. But alas, maybe there's something I don't understand.

I thought I would act that way too before this all happened. When it happened there was shock and lots of strong emotions but not rage or even anger (at least yet). So now I'm just trying to follow DB principles - to be clear that the affair/OM is unacceptable in our relationship and yet still remain civil, upbeat and positive and GALing.

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Searchr,

Reverse roles with your wife. You're the adulterer and you're staying with your girlfriend several nights week and going home on the nights that you're not with your girlfriend. How would you expect your wife to behave? If she were all happy and smiley about your behavior you might believe you're getting away with it (and you'd probably wonder if she's mentally challenged).

What do you think your wife thinks about you?

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Dang, that line of thought never occurred to me. I wish I had known back then.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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Originally Posted By: Searchr
Originally Posted By: doodler

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's not DB, but if my wife were spending many nights with the OM, I don't think I'd be showing disapproval. I think I'd be booting her out the door. But alas, maybe there's something I don't understand.

I thought I would act that way too before this all happened. When it happened there was shock and lots of strong emotions but not rage or even anger (at least yet). So now I'm just trying to follow DB principles - to be clear that the affair/OM is unacceptable in our relationship and yet still remain civil, upbeat and positive and GALing.


Sounds like you may be in shock. Just because there's no anger now doesn't mean it won't come.

That said, I'd knock it off with the happy family mealtime. Starting GALing at night as well.

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Originally Posted By: Searchr
So now I'm just trying to follow DB principles - to be clear that the affair/OM is unacceptable in our relationship and yet still remain civil, upbeat and positive and GALing.


There is a difference between being civil versus letting WW cake eat. Why should she have any motivation to come home and be yours exclusively if she gets to have the security of home and husband, AND the rush of having an OM? And why should she respect you if you let her get away with it? I would really encourage you to draw some boundaries for your own sanity and well-being. I.e., as long as she is continuing her R with OM, no family dinners, no sleeping in the MBR, etc. etc. You don't have to fight with her or provoke drama--you simply don't engage with her (or the marriage) while she is acting out. By removing your attention from her, you use negative reinforcement to extinguish her undesirable behaviors. By letting her cake eat, you make it easier for her to continue in the affair because she is getting all her needs met between the both of you.


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Quote:
Starting GALing at night as well


This. As in going out.


There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
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I read somewhere that to an extent - by choosing to DB, we sort of have to allow some cake eating.

But the smiles around a w when she's openly in an A which she admits, is odd to me.

The advice about GAL is hammered here for 2 reasons: First & foremost GAL is the only way I know of to detach. Detachment is protective and healthy b/c we cannot control the spouse. So we have to let go of the results, even when we fear or oppose them.

Perhaps the control issue you have identified, is at play here. You fear detachment b/c you assume it means losing control?? Just a thought.

The other reason we urge LBS's to GAL is b/c it makes LBS's happier, more self confident people. And a byproduct of that inner contentment is that we are more attractive to our spouses. Simply put, we bring more to the table as a partner than someone who revolves around us or comes to us with their bucket of needs.

But admittedly there is a paradox. We cannot GAL and Detach with the goal of getting our spouses back. That's just a tactic, and it's manipulative and reveals no real change in us.

Yet by sincerely owning our flaws and GAL (by studying or working or volunteering in a new way,) and conducting ourselves differently, we show change to the outside world.

It's rare for a WAW to turn & go home, if they believe nothing in the LBH has changed. She cannot think returning to you will be the same.


Remember the "math" of this:

Small consistent changes + time = change the WAS can believe.


She will notice your changes if they are consistent and authentic.

In any event, being upbeat with a PMA is much much easier when we are busy meeting new people, going to exciting places and doing new interesting things.

As for being able to kick her out, I don't see being able to do so for legal reasons. And perhaps you think you'd be pushing her into OM's arms, more correct? That may be a fair concern. Plus, I think you are trying to DB in front of her while you can, via interactions with her. Once sep, that will be harder.

Still, my instincts say you can DB more actively. What are your GAL so far?

I'd be so happy to go do your new activity with your new friends, I'd barely have time to chat with her. When you relent and do speak with her, DB big time. Listen, listen and listen and do not argue.

The more you challenge her choices - or dismiss them as "crazy", the more you force her to defend those choices & tune you out.


It'll be a challenge to be busy & upbeat without looking like you are handing her a cake to eat. So it might be really helpful to get a DB coach for specifics on this (I found my DB coach to be a Godsend back in the day).


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X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Originally Posted By: Jeep74
Quote:
Starting GALing at night as well


This. As in going out.


what he said^^^ List some things you always wanted to do, or places you wanted to visit, that you have not done for whatever reason.

Such as a sport you follow or want to do again, a language or cooking course, woodworking, anything creative, including theater auditions, or crew work, singing, studying a musical instrument - joining a church or club or non profit or community club to join.. writers group, meet up groups,

I coached my d's team, I took a cooking class and a language class, I learned to fly, I went skydiving, auditioned for local and then regional theater, volunteered at school and at a battered women's shelter. I worked out & got in shape, saw a therapist, etc.

There are things you would or do enjoy, that now need your time.

Good luck Searchr.



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Thank you all for the feedback and advice.
I think Kaizen nailed it with "Sounds like you may be in shock", not that that's an excuse for my passivity but I'm sure part of my reaction is the 'Deer in headlights' response.

Doodler, you ask "What do you think your wife thinks about you?". I think she is quite suprised and maybe curious about my relative calm response. I don't think she's thinking - how weak and pathetic is this guy? I do however understand that there is likely an unconcious primal reaction that is looking for 'King of the Jungle', gorilla like strength and not seeing any of that in me.

annab74 it's not that I disagree with you at all. I definitely have to improve my boundaries. It's just a fine line between provoking drama and not engaging while remaining civil. I know I'm definitely erring on the side of cake-eating but when you've slept in the same bed and ate at the same table together for 16+ years it seems a bit childish and manipulative to make her sleep and eat elsewhere. I do not want to give her any reason to jump permanently out the door even though she's spending many nights out of doors already.

Thanks so much for your long input 25yearmic. Some really valuable info there. The GALing to be happy is definitely a challenge right now. I have been running every evening which is new for me. My GALing hasn't yet proceeded to evening and away from home stuff like Kaizen and Jeep74 suggested. I am looking for some meetups and will definitely start this soon. Up till now my GALing has been getting busy with jobs around the house.
By the way - very impressive list of GAL activities you cited for yourself - I do find that inspiring.

Meanwhile, she's talking about taking the 2 dogs and staying with OM for a week - sort of testing things out for long term. She keeps asking me if I'd prefer that or just proceed straight to 6 month separation. I keep telling her 'you know my viewpoints on this affair'. Definitely, indecision, confusion perhaps co-dependence wanting me on some level to approve. I'd like a psychologists viewpoint on that one.

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So I'm going hiking tomorrow with a hiking group.
The Wife asked me what I was doing this weekend and I answered that I'm going hiking tomorrow and maybe playing tennis tonight (both new behaviors for me).
Judging from her reaction it feels like this just widens the gap between us. Her reaction was 'good, that's great you are getting out and will meet some new people' (repeated twice). It's as though it just lessens her guilt over what she is doing to me and allows her to move closer to OM.
I do worry that a lot of what gets recommended here (although it works the majority of the time for most people) is formulaic and every WS is different. She seemed very glad that I was doing my own stuff, I assume because it allows her more freedom (emotionally) to do her own stuff i.e. time with OM. I personally think that her guilt can work in my favor so doing anything to reduce that guilt isn't helpful.

Anyway, I will still go on the hike but this might be an area to 'stop doing what doesn't work'.

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Searchr,

Good for you for getting out and doing new things!

Your wife took notice; that's a good thing. Don't screw things up by mind reading. Stay with the plan. It's just one step in a long journey.

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That's an incredible amount of mind reading. If she's asking you questions and taking interest, then it IS working.

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Quote:
Judging from her reaction it feels like this just widens the gap between us. Her reaction was 'good, that's great you are getting out and will meet some new people' (repeated twice). It's as though it just lessens her guilt over what she is doing to me and allows her to move closer to OM.


Lessens her guilt? What are you suggesting to do as an alternative? Even if you could cause her to feel guilty, do you want a MR based on guilt? Her affair has caused the wide gap in the MR.........not you GAL.

Quote:
I do worry that a lot of what gets recommended here (although it works the majority of the time for most people) is formulaic and every WS is different. She seemed very glad that I was doing my own stuff, I assume because it allows her more freedom (emotionally) to do her ow


Here's what I am seeing..........You want her to be the exception. You want to believe your own reasoning about what she feels and thinks. You want her to feel some guilt over this affair, b/c it would mean she may not really be like the other women you've read about here. And, your fear is emotionally paralyzing you.

I would say it is not uncommon to see the same thing going through the minds of most LBH'S when they first join the board. Perhaps it's your way of trying to process it. You might feel better if you set up some sessions with DB coaches. From what I've read, they encourage a softer approach with the cheating spouse...and encourage building a friendship with her. They do not separate the wayward wife from the WAW. So, that may be more to your liking.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: Searchr
So I'm going hiking tomorrow with a hiking group.
The Wife asked me what I was doing this weekend and I answered that I'm going hiking tomorrow and maybe playing tennis tonight (both new behaviors for me).
Judging from her reaction it feels like this just widens the gap between us. Her reaction was 'good, that's great you are getting out and will meet some new people' (repeated twice). It's as though it just lessens her guilt over what she is doing to me and allows her to move closer to OM.

Wow, that is not how I read her reaction at all. To me, she's uttering what "sounds nice" to her. Hence saying it twice. There's no way she's not curious about it. She has probably wanted some changes in you that are now happening. No way is she totally at ease about it. It means leaving behind something she was hoping for, for a long time.

Unless she is actually indifferent, but that would be mind reading and we are not supposed to do that. (AND IF she is indifferent, and you are doing things you actually enjoy, then keep doing it b/c it's too late to save the m anyhow. )

But when you say "it's as though it lessens her guilt..." MIND READING gets you nowhere... AND , I'm not sure she feels guilty so much as justified. Remember that when spouses have affairs, usually they rationalize it b/c of their perceived unmet needs.

As a woman, I'm a tad biased (though not in favor of affairs!)..But the women I know who have had affairs, have almost universally justified the affair, usually for emotional reasons. In your w's case, she has some issues you admit are not insignificant. It's not as if she wants out of a marriage in which she was perfectly happy.

I only say this ^^ to explain why I doubt her guilt is a factor that helps you at the moment. Guilt and regret are more likely if she sees you as bringing something to the table, other than judgement. Like a marriage that values some of the things she values which were not emphasized in the m. You know she wanted children, more intimacy and passion, and what else?

What things were missing in the m, that you actually would also like more of? If it's being outdoors more, for instance, then hiking is perfect.


So I don't think guilting her will work at all, btw. And I sure don't think she's feeling wrong, though I agree she doesn't wish you were not hurt.

You need to understand that her seeing your pain is not going to make you look attractive to her, regardless.

**But seeing a man she thought would never change, suddenly GAL and changing, & presenting new "data" about himself, e.g. means

that he is NOT who she thought he was, AND OR he is no longer the man she found lacking. She believed life could not improve, b/c you would not change. And yet...

..and that undermines the negative images she has created - some of which are probably valid - and it May undermine the fantasy of the smooth life with OM. It certainly does not fuel her negatives...

Life is going to be rougher with OM than expected. It has to be. Life is that way.

So if she faces rough spots she did not expect and can stop looking at the shore with OM, and looks back over her shoulder and sees that life with you can be better, in an improved marriage,

well, it's a thought.

There are those who will keep saying to give her the boot. They could be right.

But I think she left a marriage that was an unhappy place for her for a long time. Maybe not such a happy place for you either?


I feel like she thinks that the m she left had to end b/c it could not improve.

Your new behaviors are challenging that belief.



I do worry that a lot of what gets recommended here (although it works the majority of the time for most people) is formulaic and every WS is different.

Saying to do what works and not do what doesn't work, may sound formulaic but by definition it is not. It's a customized approach , when done correctly.


She seemed very glad that I was doing my own stuff, I assume

stop the mind reading. Gets you nowhere. Plus, the alternative is what? Staying home and pining for her? To acheive what? To prove love?

I think respecting her enough to let her make her own mistakes, is a much better, more attractive choice than coming from a place of need.

To be clear, I assume you have told her that you love her and want to remain married, rather than merely and repeatedly reminding her that you do not approve. She already knows that.


because it allows her more freedom (emotionally) to do her own stuff i.e. time with OM. I personally think that her guilt can work in my favor so doing anything to reduce that guilt isn't helpful.


I so disagree with this^^^.


Anyway, I will still go on the hike but this might be an area to 'stop doing what doesn't work'.



What did you expect her to do when she heard for the first time, that you were hiking?

did you think she'd slap her forehead and say "NO don't! Please, I want you to know how insecure I am when you do literally anything new".

AND I don't think you are reading her accurately. It's as if you believe she's saying "oh, h, You must be FINE with my choices, and so now I'm free to feel great about it all!"??

Geez, give her some time to process the man you are becoming. That takes time.

consistent change + time = change she can believe in.


Trust me on one thing --- a woman who leaves her h (with or without OM,)

is not about to return to the marriage she left and

The more you change authentically (and grow for your own sake!!),

the more she will wonder if you just might becoming the man she always wanted you to become.




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M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Sorry for the delay - not a lot to report.
Firstly, thankyou all for taking the time to read this (and other threads) and provide feedback. I think the crowd input is valuable and some lines/quote are Golden.

They cancelled the hiking, but I did get out to play mixed doubles tennis - I'll likely make that a regular Sunday thing as long as it remains available. There definitely was some curiosity on Wife's part about the Women in the group.

Your points are taken about the mind-reading - I really don't know what the heck is going on in her head. Also Sandi2, I definitely don't want a MR based on guilt - things seem so obvious when they are spelled out like that. I'll put my 'lessens her guilt..' comment down to my emotionality right now but I'm sure I will be indulging in more of that.

Thanks for the clarification 25yearsmic on guilt vs justification and your concise clarity on many points - being an engineer, your formulas are very helpful.
I need to keep answering this question of yours - "What things were missing in the m, that you actually would also like more of?" Getting outside in nature is a big one. Travel is huge but requires considerable resources (money and time). Meeting stimulating groups of people (like the kind people on this forum) is another one.


She's still vacillating between taking the 2 dogs for a week to stay with OM or just proceeding to Separation immediately. She still seems to need me to decide which I've been resisting. Definitely some hesitation and confusion, however she still spends half the nights with OM. Anyone want to comment on that vacillation and the need for me to decide?

There is likely pressure from OM's side building for her to spend full time with him (he moved recently into an apartment more suitable for the 2 of them - being single he's obviously committed) and I think it's getting close for her to make the jump.

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Today my Wife returned quite emotional after spending the night and morning with the OM (she continues to spend about half the nights with him). She cried a little and spoke about how we messed things up and made so many mistakes. She was relating her regrets on how we've arrived at this situation - even talking about decisions we made 20 years ago. Blaming me for being hard (too demanding) on her.
I comforted her and told her that there isn't any point in beating herself up about decisions made in the past.
She also mentioned that if we did get back together we'd need to sell this house and buy a smaller one. But in the next breath asked if I understand that she HAS to be with OM although she doesn't know if it will work in the long term.

She also seems to be subtly delaying completing and signing the Separation agreement (this has happened a couple of times). She keeps saying we have to go over it together - that's what we had already planned to do today when she came back but didn't in the end. I think that's what made her emotional.

After a nap in the afternoon she's now in the bath and will be spending another night with him and tells me that we must go over the document tomorrow. The plan is still to finalize the separation agreement by going to lawyers together (maybe this week).

I did have one session with one of the DB Coaches. She was very nice but unfortunately it took a full half an hour to relate my story and background. In the remaining 20 minutes we basically covered things that have already been advised and spoken about amongst you all in this forum. So I didn't really discover anything new but maybe this is testament to all of your kind and helpful work here.

Meanwhile, I'm playing Tennis tomorrow and very slowly GALing.

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It's all so very confusing.

Today, she lets me know that OM has huge plans for their future. Then in next sentence comments that he has lots of similarities with her Father (her Father left the family when she was young and they have lots of issues) and she knows his faults. Then the next sentence is - what I love about him is he works so hard to spiritually improve himself.

She slept at OM's apartment again last night and plans to spend most of this week there. As usual when she leaves for the night she comes and gives me a quick hug (a bit awkwardly for both of us) and says "see you tomorrow". I remain civil.

We still haven't reviewed Separation Contract together.

One heck of a roller-coaster with more downs than ups if that's possible.

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Why are you continuing to talk to her about her relationship with OM?!

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Kaizen- She was talking to me in the car (we bought some groceries together) so I couldn't walk away. I did change the subject.

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So here's a long overdue update on my situation.

My Wife and I spoke about and negotiated a separation agreement for many weeks - all the time she spent nearly every night with OM.
We finally settled on a signed 6 month separation agreement (without lawyers).
This was signed 3 weeks ago. I agreed to allow her Mom to remain here for up till the end of June at the latest so I still see my Wife most days because she taxis her Mom to her jobs although she's living with OM full time and buying furniture etc.

Meanwhile, I've continued to GAL mainly with some swimming, tennis and hiking - not much socializing (thats more of an effort for me).

It does seem that true to the DB principles the 'intoxication or infatuation' phase is wearing off a bit in that I've gleaned some negative comments from her Mother who she tells nearly everything.
However, our relationship is not improving. She has some anger towards me for various marital reasons and she's cross that I had lost interest in our marriage towards the end and that was a major reason for the affair happening.
I'm also noticing my feelings are changing. I'm not sure if it just has to do with reality setting in or it's the fact that I could justify/forgive her behavior because of brain chemicals and her not being in a normal state of mind but now that the brain chemistry is dying down I'm battling to understand why she is continuing the relationship.
It looks like she is in no-mans land now with being unhappy with both me and her new guy. She also has the additional complication of sending her Mom back overseas (she was living with us for 5 years) or moving her in with the new guy temporarily.

My feelings are also vacillating with a part of me wanting to investigate more of this new lifestyle of mine without her and a part of me upset that she continues to be with him.

A couple of months ago I had an idealized notion that we could both learn from this, forgive and get back together and take our relationship to a higher level. Now, I'm seeing and feeling the emotional messiness of it all and am no longer optimistic.
I'm thinking that this is all part of her mid-life crisis with a lot of psychological issues that have to be processed/healed and it could take years to get to the other side of this mess.

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