Intoxicated Wife with rampant brain chemicals

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for the comments Woke_Up. Yes, we are still using the MBR together. That tactic of moving her belongings out of the room would definitely not work - she would create a lot of drama and just return to the bed.
I certainly could have just gone to sleep and then been awoken (if I had fallen asleep) when she returned. I'd still be faced with communicating in a STRONG manner that it was unfair/unreasonable/unacceptable behavior etc.

As far as a stronger, younger self goes I've never been even close to this situation before. I thought that I definitely would be strong and terminate the marriage immediately should such a thing happen but when the real life event occurred I felt totally different.
I hear what you say about 'no messing' and perhaps I'll still get to that stage. Right now things are moving so fast it's quite difficult to be in command of anything.


Cristi, the reason I'm doing the 'heavy lifting' in drawing up the separation contract is a matter of control - I feel I have more control if I draw it up.

Has she mentioned any control issues with you? The idea of you drawing it up and asking us for help when you don't want the divorce, screams control. TBH, a lot of what you wrote in your first post raised that issue for me. In any event, I don't think it serves you well at all.


She is in such a rush to begin her new life (the addictive behavior of her constantly wanting to be with OM is astounding) that if I didn't do anything, she would just do it herself in a forceful manner.

Well, so what? Then see a L if she does. She cannot make you sign it.




Any takers on my other questions about a Separation Agreement?
I'm referring to pointers as to what to agree upon when discussing a separation. For example access to the home, coming and going arrangements, communication arrangements etc.
Is there any way to build in say periodic scheduled meetings/get-togethers to discuss emotions or progress.

No

you cannot force her to do or feel or say anything. And she will not "discuss emotions or progress" with you BECAUSE of a document you write.

This^^ feels like it's about you & control, again.

This is a very hard lesson to learn, but Searchr, she is not in your control.

I know that is painful and that you are reeling. But the first thing to do is take a deep breath and CALM down.

You are so busy reacting to what you think she is feeling or doing, that you are not even admitting that you have some things in your own sandbox that only you can work on.

You cannot get in her sandbox now, b/c frankly, it's hers.

Here's a question. If your wife were here what would she say?

[Searchr]

Thanks for your extensive input 25yearsmic. Yes I'm reeling. Yes I have control issues along with my Passivity issues.

The Power Struggle over the dogs wasn't handled well by either of us. Quite childish. I did try to discuss it and the lack of intimacy several times but I regret not insisting on some Counseling for both of us over that issue.

When I refer to chemicals, no she isn't on any meds, drugs or alcohol, I mean the dopamine, PEA, cortisol and other stuff that is changing her behavior. I've stopped using the word intoxication now but I was trying to communicate with her that she wasn't making sensible decisions and wasn't properly in control - yes, a little bit crazy.
You are right that my summary/model of brain chemicals being the problem hasn't helped me in my cause (but I do believe that this largely comes down to such biology).

Regarding the 'salient point' (yes a huge understatement) - my heart also aches for her regarding this. But what was I supposed to do - be SUPER PASSIVE and have a child that I didn't want. Please acknowledge that there were 2 parties in that huge decision.

Mentioning 'denial' 3 times I'm sure IS significant and it definitely indicates unconscious passivity which I own. I think the reason I'm focused on this denial is the thought in my head that keeps replaying - "if only I had opened my eyes to some of these signs only 6 months ago I could have stopped this all in it's tracks. Grrrr". Yes, I know - that inner critic isn't helpful but he's pretty noisy while I'm under stress like this.

No, I don't particularly like conflict but I'm not the type to just button my lips and never assert myself.

I am 'owning my role in this'. It is devastating. I know I've made some huge mistakes. I'm already not the same guy I was just a few months ago.

Yes....deep breath.

Seems like I'm learning stuff by the hour - I get now that my WW will not "discuss emotions or progress" with me BECAUSE of a document I write. My intention was sincere - I guess I'm resisting the 'forced dis-connection' part of Separation.


So I'm still working on the Separation document and integrating this crazy idea of not connecting with her, yet hoping that the marriage might still be saved.
What are peoples suggestions regarding the duration of the contract - pro's and cons of say 6 months vs 12 months separation?

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for your extensive input 25yearsmic. Yes I'm reeling. Yes I have control issues along with my Passivity issues.


The Power Struggle over the dogs wasn't handled well by either of us. Quite childish. I did try to discuss it and the lack of intimacy several times but I regret not insisting on some Counseling for both of us over that issue.

Well, you could have gotten counseling yourself...just saying.

When I refer to chemicals, no she isn't on any meds, drugs or alcohol, I mean the dopamine, PEA, cortisol and other stuff that is changing her behavior.

do you see how you are not factoring in anything you have done or are doing, with this statement? You are placing the responsibility on her AND OR some odd random chemical event.

What if, JUST hypothetically, her decision makes total sense?

What if you are controlling and critical and there is no intimacy and there are a ton of unresolved issues, including her feeling forced to give up motherhood?

What would that mean? See, I think it's not all bad. I think there is some good news b/c it means you can change some of the realities by changing yourself.

Let's face it, If your summary up there is accurate, there is literally nothing you can do and you are powerless.


I've stopped using the word intoxication now but I was trying to communicate with her that she wasn't making sensible decisions and wasn't properly in control - yes, a little bit crazy.


So, she's "not properly in control"...and she doesn't make any sense.


How did you think dismissing her feelings and thoughts would help the situation? Isn't it more of the same?

Can you really imagine a scenario in which that would cause her to she slap her forehead and say "you're right. Forget what I said/felt." ??

You are right that my summary/model of brain chemicals being the problem hasn't helped me in my cause (but I do believe that this largely comes down to such biology).

Okayyyy...so, you are powerless to do anything in your life.

Nothing you can change in you or your sandbox. Doesn't that seem like more passivity on your end? The whole m is now on HER TO CHANGE, not you...

Regarding the 'salient point' (yes a huge understatement) - my heart also aches for her regarding this. But what was I supposed to do - be SUPER PASSIVE and have a child that I didn't want. Please acknowledge that there were 2 parties in that huge decision.

Absolutely There are 2 parties. But the original plan was to have children. You unilaterally changed that "contract". She got no vote. YOU made the choice, not as a couple.

Another option would have been that yes, you give her something very important b/c you love HER, and then you'd man up to raise and love the child.

Admittedly I'm a mother, so I come from that perspective. But our first born was not planned, by a long shot.

It took all of 5 minutes of shock and fear, to convert into delight...


Mentioning 'denial' 3 times I'm sure IS significant and it definitely indicates unconscious passivity which I own. I think the reason I'm focused on this denial is the thought in my head that keeps replaying - "if only I had opened my eyes to some of these signs only 6 months ago I could have stopped this all in it's tracks. Grrrr". Yes, I know - that inner critic isn't helpful but he's pretty noisy while I'm under stress like this.

No, I don't particularly like conflict but I'm not the type to just button my lips and never assert myself.

I think my question was not if you "liked" conflict but how you handled it. I don't know many people who like it. What do the above comments about the dogs and having a child tell you?


I am 'owning my role in this'. It is devastating. I know I've made some huge mistakes. I'm already not the same guy I was just a few months ago.


It's very painful....so, can you elaborate on what changes you sense in you?

Yes....deep breath.

Seems like I'm learning stuff by the hour - I get now that my WW will not "discuss emotions or progress" with me BECAUSE of a document I write.

My intention was sincere - I guess I'm resisting the 'forced dis-connection' part of Separation.


because it feels counter-intuitive. You want to fix this NOW. But you cannot. All you can work on is you.

Take that ^^ last sentence IN...

So I'm still working on the Separation document

Why? Why are you working on it, at all? Think hard about this.

and integrating this crazy idea of not connecting with her, yet hoping that the marriage might still be saved.
What are peoples suggestions regarding the duration of the contract - pro's and cons of say 6 months vs 12 months separation?

I think you are resisting a lot of the advice you are getting here. Nothing you write will fix this.

I don't think you should write this "Code of Conduct" separation agreement at all. For one thing, it reeks of control. Secondly, you are taking the lead in the separation now, which you don't even want.

If you fear she will steal or waste assets, you can protect yourself from that without drafting a document for her to sign.

If she gets one for you to sign, THEN we can help you address your concerns.
She would not be writing anything in stone that you will be forced to sign or follow.
You cannot be forced to sign it...

Did you read the DB books? This would make more sense if you had and if you have, then maybe read some of it again. It's not easy to take it all in the first read through. It's a unique approach.

Hang in there.

[25yearsmlc]

Searchr

here are some tips that might help you for now..

Back off trying to change how she sees things and back off trying to change her mind. The more you challenge her choices, the more she will defend them.

Do not take any moves that move the D along.

And when you are with or near your w:

Listen, listen and listen. Do not react until you have taken some deep breaths and then red-cap anything that you're not sure of.

Like "so w, if I hear you correctly, you're saying that you wanted X and Y, but don't feel as if you can attain those now. Is that what you meant?

(Then let her speak again. Mind you, SHE will be talking more than you - b/c you are on a recon mission, okay?)

So the more she talks, the better.

If she says "So, H, all those flaws of yours prevent us from staying m",

you can say something like "I can see why you'd feel that way. And I'm so sorry that I hurt you then."

It's not about an equal blame or a mutual pain score. Why are you owning the blame now? Because You're the one here trying to save your m, and she's not.

If you ever make it to piecing, then you can address your own unmet needs within the m. We can help with that.

Another comment you might make to wife is "W, if I had to do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

This^^ indicates you recognize that you have work to do, that you get it, but you're not being a doormat. But do not show that you have any expectations

and if you can manage it, do not have any inside you either.

Do DB basics, with an upbeat attitude and dressier clothes and a bit of cologne. As if you are about to go out and do something super fun.

And please GAL...GAL GAL- especially with a new or different activity or study, etc.
Something you always wanted to do...

1) I don't think you can detach without GAL -and detachment reduces your pain AND will help you with other choices.

2) you cannot appear to have changed if all the behaviors are the same.

3) it makes you more interesting as a partner

4) it will help you get through this, no matter what happens.

Finally, Having no expectations is not the same as having no hope.

Hang in there.

[Searchr]

25yearsmic, you are making some excellent points. Also, amongst the truth that you write about (which stings by the way) I can certainly hear your kindness and concern. Thankyou.

Yes, I do have resistance to some of your suggestions even though I can see that it is rooted in my control issues.

Sorry, but I'm going to pass on your advice on not writing the Separation agreement. I know my Wife well enough that if I don't do it she will steam ahead and likely have a lawyer doing it and things could get out of control very quickly. Sorry to all the lawyers on the board but I'm going to make it as simple as possible. Yes, I might still lose control when she takes it to a lawyer and they advise her on changes. But sometimes being in control and leading the process can work out well.
I've realized now that there will be no 'Code of conduct' in the contract - just a straight forward legal contract. Another point - lawyers cost money, lot's of money when things get messier.

As for the rest of your advice I think it's golden and will reread this more than once.
Of course reading isn't enough - active LISTENING, backing off trying to change her mind etc is now going to be my main course of action. The sad thing though is she is already spending a lot of time with OM (often overnight) and we'll soon be separated so I'm not going to get much opportunity to employ your good advice.

I agree with your GAL advice as well (as per DB and yes I have read the books and keep referring back to them). The funny thing is during my period of denial I was starting to do things that I had put on the back-burner for years eg. studying for a Pilot's license, going on a sailing trip with a couple of guy friends. My Wife just took that as more proof of my disconnection from the marriage. So I'm not too sure that it will work now in my favor regarding the Marriage. But I agree I have to GAL anyway.

As per your great last line - I remain hopeful but not expectant of a positive outcome.

[MoveFrwd]

Sorry, but I'm going to pass on your advice on not writing the Separation agreement. I know my Wife well enough that if I don't do it she will steam ahead and likely have a lawyer doing it and things could get out of control very quickly. Sorry to all the lawyers on the board but I'm going to make it as simple as possible. Yes, I might still lose control when she takes it to a lawyer and they advise her on changes. But sometimes being in control and leading the process can work out well.
I've realized now that there will be no 'Code of conduct' in the contract - just a straight forward legal contract. Another point - lawyers cost money, lot's of money when things get messier.

Im trying to understand your logic here, but Im having a difficult time. What exactly is your intent in writing this separation agreement?

1) To save the lawyer fees?
2) To have control over the language?
3) As a way of showing your support to your W?
4) Something else?

Honestly, none of these make a lot of sense to me. Honestly, Im not sure how much legality it really has if you do agree on something. What happens if she signs it and then breaks one of the things in the agreement? Will you actually have the correct language that you can enforce it? Also, if I were her, theres no way in hell Im signing it before taking it to a lawyer, and they are going to want to rewrite it anyway.

And if it's the third thing, then I just dont see it being anything that moves the needle. In my mind, if I would have wanted the divorce, I would have done something to help move it forward. Since I had no interest in it, I let my ex do the lifting, and then I reviewed it and we compromised where necessary. I dont see how taking it over does anything but show that you want the divorce. If you dont, then I would let her do it.

[annab74]

I also live in a state that does not recognize legal separation. WH and I did a notarized property settlement agreement outlining distribution of property, support payments, custody arrangements, etc., as part of the filing process, but it is totally unenforceable by the judge until written into the final decree and signed.

[Dawgs]

Another point - lawyers cost money, lot's of money when things get messier.

Yes, yes they do. But the good ones will work for you and your best interests. As was evident in what I walked away with.

[Searchr]

Kaizen,
This is more of a property settlement agreement like annab74 described above. As I understand it, once the property distribution etc. is clearly laid out in this Contract there is no reason for the Divorce Judge to change any terms and the Divorce can proceed smoothly.

Your No. 2 description is about the closest intent but it's more than that. Both my Wife and I have had bad experiences with lawyers and so we are trying to do this amicably with minimal lawyer involvement. To me there is a big difference between the following:
1.She goes to a lawyer who draws up and agreement and then my lawyer picks it apart and it goes back and forward in an advesorial manner.
2.We draw up an agreement (I am using a template downloaded from a law website eg. www.uslegalforms.com) (yes I will do the editing) that we both agree on. Then we go to a lawyer who spells out what each clause means and what we are each giving up in the contract.
Surely, no. 2 will have a better outcome? Yes, when we go to the lawyer he may raise fears in either one of us and we end up reverting to no. 1 anyway. That's a risk but the optmistic outcome is that it goes smoothly, we both sign off on it and it's settled.

In answer to your questions:
"What happens if she signs it and then breaks one of the things in the agreement?"
We'd have to deal with that even if it was drawn up by a lawyer.
"Will you actually have the correct language that you can enforce it?"
When we take it to a lawyer he should confirm this.

I do understand psychologically, perhaps unconsciously it appears that I'm signalling I also want a divorce. All I can do in that regard is keep saying explicitly that I want to save our marriage and I don't think this is the right thing and it particularly concerns me that we will have little contact once the separation begins. Of course I have to say that without 'pleading' and looking weak.

Jeep - You sound very happy with your settlement which leads me to believe the other party wasn't so happy which just bolsters my argument about lawyers.

[Searchr]

Meanwhile.....
As I continue practicing DB principles of GAL and appearing upbeat and positive, I'm finding it quite difficult to not show disapproval regarding her behavior. She is now spending many nights with OM at his apartment and when she returns each time I find it quite awkward (I'm sure she does too). My natural inclination is to show disapproval, but I know I'm meant to appear confident, polite and agreeable and engrossed in my own activities but that all feels quite false and difficult to 'act'.

Does anyone have pointers or example comentary/conversation in this regard?

Another example is at the evening meal (the Wife, the MIL and myself continue on most evenings to eat a meal together at the dinner table). How do you make light polite conversation about nothing important when there is this big elephant in the room?