Kaizen, so you didn't like that reply? The way I saw it was the little girl in her wanted my approval (i.e. to enable her) and the little rebel in her wanted me to disapprove (i.e. disable). So how would you have replied?
Regarding moping, no I'm not - I'm quite busy with jobs around the house and catching up on a reading backlog.
Regarding hope - yes, until I am divorced I choose to remain hopeful.
And can ANYONE answer my questions about Separation: "I asked in an earlier post - is there any resources anyone can point to when drafting up such an arrangement? Also, is there a list of considerations to take into account when agreeing on such an arrangement?"
This weekend I'll download a LS document from the internet, modify it and will have to contact a lawyer next week to check/ratify it. We are at the stage of agreeing to a 6 month separation and already discussing who gets what furniture. Sadly, the chances of saving this marriage seem to be rapidly declining.
I wasn't really looking for legal documentation but pointers as to what to agree upon when discussing a separation. For example access to the home, coming and going arrangements, communication arrangements etc. I would have thought a lot of people here would have dealt with these issues and could point me to a list of things to consider?
My big problem with separation is that for a Marriage to survive there must be connection & communication and separation doesn't seem to offer any of that. Is there any way to build in say periodic scheduled meetings/get-togethers to discuss emotions or progress. I'm trying to maximize my small chances of still saving this marriage.
Sorry Sandi I didn't address your previous question about my definition of 'tough love' - most likely because firstly that's a typically passive thing to do (avoidance) and secondly, I'm not that clear on it and I'm using it as a label for actions that 'feel' harsh to a passive guy like myself. I keep rereading your powerful writing and advice yet I have this natural aversion to this 'strength' you are trying to guide me towards. I'm really discovering how deep my passivity is. For example, last night she went out and said she'd be back just after 10pm but then ended up visiting the boyfriend and coming back at 11:30pm. I was angry but conscious of my anger and ended up expressing my anger by using the words 'that's really not fair' messing me around like that. Pretty passive I'd say. How would a 'strong' guy act in that situation?
It seems I'm constantly behind the 8 ball because now we are going the separation route and it didn't come about through my strength but rather her demands - separation or divorce, and quickly Mister!
I'm really discovering how deep my passivity is. For example, last night she went out and said she'd be back just after 10pm but then ended up visiting the boyfriend and coming back at 11:30pm. I was angry but conscious of my anger and ended up expressing my anger by using the words 'that's really not fair' messing me around like that. Pretty passive I'd say. How would a 'strong' guy act in that situation?
By going to bed and not giving a sh!t... I'm not one to talk, I'm also naturally a conflict avoider/pleaser/fixer, and have had Sandi shaking her head at me many times.
Did her staying out late impact you? If not, just ignore it, get on with your own life. Don't even ask her what time she will be back. If you want to go to bed, go to bed. If you want to do something else, do something else.
A strong guy would not tolerate his W being with OM, and then only grumbling about the time she came home. Do you have to share a bed with her? Do you have children? If yes, can you move her things out of the MBR without causing a riot? If not, move her things out of the MBR, tell her you're not going to sleep with someone who is involved with OM. Don't let her force you to make any decisions with S or D. Just tell her she can drive that particular bus and go whichever route she wants.
I am terrible with boundaries, and the more I analyse myself the more I find it to be rooted in my childhood. I also can't let go, so if she reaches out physically, I respond. If it was a PA rather than an EA, that would be different for me - I already told her that if she met the OP, then I would consider us done. That's the only boundary that I can see she has taken seriously so far. How are you with boundaries?
Now as for that advice - I would probably be terrible at enforcing it. Maybe. I have been married before, when I was 23. I found out my W had an affair while I was away in the US on a business trip. We argued, tried MC, she moved out for a trial sep, and on the first night had OM's car parked outside. I blew, phoned OM's wife, and filed for D. I wasn't messing back then. I was gutted, devastated, angry, but I wasn't messing. So maybe the 46 yr old me needs to get back in touch with the 27 year old me.
Do you have a stronger, younger self that you need to get back in touch with?
-- Me: 47 WW: 35 SS: 17 D: 5 T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016. OEA continues (with occasional breaks) BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Kaizen, so you didn't like that reply? The way I saw it was the little girl in her wanted my approval (i.e. to enable her) and the little rebel in her wanted me to disapprove (i.e. disable). So how would you have replied?
I would have looked at her and said "I think thats incredibly inappropriate" and gone on with what I was doing. No permission. No denying. No wimpy talks about how hurt it left me. Just my opinion on the subject. If she pressed me for more, Id say I wasnt interested in discussing her relationship with another man.
It seems I'm constantly behind the 8 ball because now we are going the separation route and it didn't come about through my strength but rather her demands - separation or divorce, and quickly Mister!
Hello Searchr,
Why are you doing the heavy lifting when it comes to the separation agreement? If she wants it, she needs to jump through the hoops to make it happen. Having said that, it is still a good idea to consult your lawyer so you are aware of your rights and can protect yourself and your assets. Don't tell her that you are speaking with a lawyer. You are just gathering info at this point.
Woke_up is right about the MBR and sharing a bed. I know, easier said than done.
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I wasn't messing back then. I was gutted, devastated, angry, but I wasn't messing.
"Messing".........I think that is a very good word to described what is seen in many stitches of LBH'S who have a wayward wife. Based on the very few posts of WW's who were yanked back to their senses and came here looking for advice.......they, too, had H's who weren't messing........and it quickly changed the dynamics.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for the comments Woke_Up. Yes, we are still using the MBR together. That tactic of moving her belongings out of the room would definitely not work - she would create a lot of drama and just return to the bed. I certainly could have just gone to sleep and then been awoken (if I had fallen asleep) when she returned. I'd still be faced with communicating in a STRONG manner that it was unfair/unreasonable/unacceptable behavior etc.
As far as a stronger, younger self goes I've never been even close to this situation before. I thought that I definitely would be strong and terminate the marriage immediately should such a thing happen but when the real life event occurred I felt totally different. I hear what you say about 'no messing' and perhaps I'll still get to that stage. Right now things are moving so fast it's quite difficult to be in command of anything.
Cristi, the reason I'm doing the 'heavy lifting' in drawing up the separation contract is a matter of control - I feel I have more control if I draw it up. She is in such a rush to begin her new life (the addictive behavior of her constantly wanting to be with OM is astounding) that if I didn't do anything, she would just do it herself in a forceful manner.
Any takers on my other questions about a Separation Agreement? I'm referring to pointers as to what to agree upon when discussing a separation. For example access to the home, coming and going arrangements, communication arrangements etc. Is there any way to build in say periodic scheduled meetings/get-togethers to discuss emotions or progress.
So I've spent the morning looking at sample Separation Agreements and I see they all just stick to the legalities of property transfer, alimony, treatment of children (not applicable in my case because my kids are adults) etc. So the questions I was asking above obviously doesn't apply to the Separation Agreement.
But couples still need some arrangements/boundaries in place during a Separation - access to home to fetch furniture, possessions and other agreements that I'm sure I haven't even thought about yet. Or am I making too big of a deal of these things? Surely there should be at least a word of mouth agreement?
And I guess my idea of periodic scheduled check-ins to discuss emotions and progress is just dreaming on my part? (even though that is my biggest problem with a separation - no ability to connect and remind each other of our shared history).
No she doesn't drink alcohol but this seems even more intoxicating. Here is some history: We've been married for 18 years. The marriage has had it's ups and downs and challenges but I've always loved her and I believe she loved me until fairly recently. We were starting to drift apart and about 2 years ago I made the mistake of starting to sleep in another bedroom because I wasn't sleeping well. She had insisted that our dogs sleep on our bed and we were getting into a power struggle over them. Any chance you were punishing her for the power struggle? Just asking.
In retrospect, I believe moving to another bedroom emotionally upset her but she didn't communicate that to me at the time. What did you think?
Late last year I moved back into the main bedroom but besides some touching and spooning we haven't been intimate.
Did you ever discuss the lack of intimacy? Or the feeling of a power struggle in bed?
Early last year she started having contact with her Massage therapist and I intuitively knew something was building but was in some type of denial and didn't address the situation early on. Around Xmas time I discovered phone records that showed she had been texting him very frequently for many months. I accused her then of her either having an emotional affair or a full sexual affair. At that stage she denied having any type of affair and she maintained they were just friends. I insisted on her terminating contact with him but allowed that she continue a 1 day a week language course she had started with him and 2 other people for the remaining several sessions. She agreed to that but I later found out that there were more lies and deceit occurring. The course has now finished.
Things progressed fast this year and she was soon telling me that this guy is very kind and special. In discussions with her she started rewriting our relationship history saying quite negative things and that I haven't been emotionally there for her for years now. She was meanwhile continuing to see this guy behind my back. Basically she's fallen head over heels for this guy and out of love with me, focusing on all the challenging times we've had and none of the good times. She's now in her mid 40's and this all feels like the crazyness of a mid-life crisis mixed up with very strong brain chemicals. What chemicals? Are you talking about drugs, meds, or that you think she's crazy to want OM? Mentally she has been working towards this split for a while and for her she is certain our marriage is over. I was very regrettably in some type of denial instead of being proactive about our relationship and am now in shock. This^^ is significant. You have used the terms "in denial" at least 3 times.
How do you tend to handle conflict, in general?
On Monday we went to a Marriage Counsellor and my Wife stated clearly that she now wants out of the Marriage. The MC pinpointed her resentment as well as the
fact that I was now pushing her away by giving her no space and continually talking about the intoxication and addiction she was experiencing from the brain chemicals. This ^^ strikes me as you dismissing her feelings (or anything you may have done or not done). Do you get what I mean? And, how has this summary worked for you thus far?
It was a bad day with no clear resolution except for me to back way off as you guys keep recommending in this forum. We both now have one-on-one sessions with the MC scheduled for next week.
I should add another salient point about our marriage. We had always planned to have kids together to add to our blended family (she was a great step-mom to my kids from a previous marriage) but because of life circumstances I kept on delaying that happening. oh yikes
About 8 years ago during a rough patch in our marriage I decided that I no longer wanted more children and told her - fully expecting her to leave the marriage. She chose to stay but I now realize that from that time there was a lot of resentment building and unbenownst to me she was slowly getting angry and hence the falling out of love with me.
Searchr This Is not just a "salient point". It's huge. So, If I understand correctly, you mean she would never carry a child, or give birth, or nurse or raise her own child. B/c you delayed and then refused her this experience. And you denied her this "Fully" expecting a divorce, but you did it anyhow? Ouch...
My heart aches for her.
I'm so Sorry but I think you glossed over this and continue to do so, at your peril.
Another contributing factor to our deteriorating relationship was my Mother-in-law moved in with us 5 years ago and although a nice lady, I think she's also been angry about not having grand-children and they have gossiped endlessly together to make me the 'bad guy' (they are very close to each other).
I've been extensively reading MWD's and other books as well as browsing in these forums. I REALLY want to save this marriage (even though I know my chances are fading daily), I still love her very much, but I'm not clear on my strategy going forward. Start by owning your role in this. It's not easy and it can feel deeply devastating. But it's key.
I know I have to play for time, rely on the statistics and hope that the affair fizzles but I'm not sure what to do next. She is now going out nearly every night to see him and I think she is ready to move in with him once she sorts out the complication of her Mother. Both her and her Mother have very small incomes (I've always paid the bills) but my Wife would receive a reasonable cash amount in a divorce (further providing incentive for her to terminate this marriage). All your viewpoints and advice would be greatly appreciated.
I don't know where you live or what the laws say. Nor do we know what the OM earns and if he's really up for having a girlfriends mother moving in...
Working on yourself (becoming the best Searchr that you can be). And detaching (b/c you won't back off if you keep your focus on her only) is a start. Plus it's all you control right now. Follow the DB rules as outlined by Sandi.
GAL and contrast her negative images of you with NEW DIFFERENT BEHAVIORS...
These are 180's. If you are never on time, become Mr. Punctual. Wear different clothes, cologne, etc.
Do not fuel her negative images of you, with more anger or control or condemning her, or saying she's addicted or crazy, etc.
I don't know of any WAS who has returned to a m and stayed, by being shamed.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
