Newbie, need help with WAW!

[Dawgs]

Ok ok, one more quick update. I found our copy of "The 5 Love Languages" from a few years ago. My wife wrote notes in the book! Little breadcrumbs for me to find during this time of hell.

As others have said, those notes are from a different time and place. Not useful now. While thinking of them may bring you temporary excitement, if you aren't careful it'll bring you nothing but pain...I say this because if you think that by trying them it will work, then you may be in for a painful lesson. Just be careful. Work on yourself and forget the notes.

[MoveFrwd]

Ok ok, one more quick update. I found our copy of "The 5 Love Languages" from a few years ago. My wife wrote notes in the book! Little breadcrumbs for me to find during this time of hell.

As others have said, those notes are from a different time and place. Not useful now. While thinking of them may bring you temporary excitement, if you aren't careful it'll bring you nothing but pain...I say this because if you think that by trying them it will work, then you may be in for a painful lesson. Just be careful. Work on yourself and forget the notes.

Frankly - I disagree and think that they are quite useful as I think she has some good thoughts.

-Communicated better
So, what does this mean? To me, it doesnt mean it's time to run over and spill your guts. It means to communicate better...smarter. I think you should focus on more than just your words. This involves your listening skills, it involves your actions matching your words and mirroring her words. What can you do to communicate "BETTER"?

-Accepted their spouse's personality, looks, needs, and (some) behaviors & didn't try to change them
So....is there something you arent telling us about your interactions? How controlling would you say that you were in your M?

-Were happy people as being individuals as they are being a couple
In your first post, you said this: A little over a year ago I started to slide into depression. How have you fixed this?

-Could learn to give each other space
So do it. Now is a great time to give her space.

[180Man]

There's no point in walking in and telling her anything. Strong words without strong actions are meaningless. Strong actions don't need words.

What good will telling her this do? I think it's good that you found her notes. Think on those.

Strong actions are difficult. I struggle with this. But you can carry on giving her space. Let her work through this. I think the bit that we, as the LBS, item struggle with is 'believe nothing of what they say'.

I agree, but since I haven't seen her in a month...if I refuse to meet with her as she has asked, then I think that's a weak action instead of a strong action. So if the strong action is to show up, then I need to decide how I'm going to show up. Am I going to sit and hold space for her, validate, and be empathetic like I tried to do in counseling? When she came into our last counseling session about a month ago and asked for a D, the counselor told me afterward that I handled it very well. I told her I understand, that I disagree very much with this decision but that I love her and want her to be happy.

Or do I show up like Sandi suggests?

Yesterday, my W's messages would indicate she wanted it over and was now ready to sell the house.

When I got home I pretty much left her alone and the subject never came up.
It's hard when you feel you're dying inside, but you just have to keep doing what's best for you.

At least you're still living with her, she can see your actions every day. Or maybe that makes it harder?

As Cadet says, they are following the script. It's hard when you know this not to tell them, not to want to scream in their faces "you're in the fog, you're doing exactly what all women in your position do, why can't you see?" What good would it do? They won't believe us. Each believes their sitch is unique. I think we need to work on us not following the LBS script.

Agreed!

[Dawgs]

Frankly - I disagree and think that they are quite useful as I think she has some good thoughts.

Yes, they are good thoughts. The info is old and from a different mindset. Should he make those changes in himself and become better at those things? Of course. But to do it in hopes of winning her back - just for that reason alone - is wrong, instead he should be doing it for himself...which would be better in future relationships with whoever.

Now, if he brought those up to her he may very well get a "too little, too late" response...or better...or worse. Who knows.

[180Man]

Im having some trouble reconciling what you are trying to say/do. You say theres two different approaches, but, to me, they arent really mutually exclusive.

I think YES you should be validating and empathetic. This does not mean you have to agree with everything she says. This does not mean you need to solve her problems. This means you should listen to her, understand her, accept that her feelings are valid, and communicate that.

I also think that YES, you should be strong and confident. You dont need to be the man she fell in love with, you should be better than that. Youre armed with so much more knowledge now!

What was your DB coach's recommendation?

DB recommended validation/empathy and acting as her friend. Perhaps I can pull some quotes from Sandi's thread and try to show you what I am perceiving she is suggesting that would be contrary to validation/empathy...

Sandi would likely classify me as a "nice guy type," which is fair.

The nice-guy tells himself he's "taking the high road", but really, he is being passive and avoiding confrontation, or the issues. He won't call his W out, stand up to her, hold her accountable, or let her deal with the consequences of her behavior.

So about a week after discovery of her A, I had been reading a lot of eastern philosophy and looking for answers in the bible and was trying to find some enlightenment on anger. I didn't want to be angry in counseling, I felt it would derail any sort of productivity. I sat down and tried to explain to her how I was feeling about anger and why I was refraining from showing it in counseling. I read her a couple of quotes, such as...

"If we repay wrongs with kindness we put an end to revenge. If we repay wrongs with wrongs, revenge never ends" -Ta'ao Tao-Ch'ung

I am saddened at how many men continue to think everything will be okay if only he can persuade her to change her mind.

I guess I thought that in those six weeks of counseling we went through, if I listened and tried to understand her feelings and thoughts...and tried to explain and clarify when necessary, that it would bring us back to happiness. Apparently not.

Meanwhile....

Super Husband is stirring around like a busy little bee and smiling.........watching her to see if she is noticing all that he's doing for her and how happy he is to get to do it. What he doesn't know is if she gives him a thought at all .... This woman's heart is closed to her H. He could work himself down into the ground and it would have no affect on her feelings.

And it didn't/hasn't.

Everything is about her. She will step on whoever gets in her way of whatever she wants at the moment. She is a master of manipulation and will use every trick in the book to accomplish what she wants. Her desires are at the top of her priority list, and she believes it should be on everyone else's, too.

So what does a man do when his wife's heart is hardened and closed off to him? When all his nice-guy ways fail miserably, what is the next step? Well, from what I have seen in the majority of the nice-guys, their nature is to want to wait it out. WAIT IT OUT?? What exactly do they think will happen? Let me say this to all the nice-guys out there.......this is part of your problem in the MR. You are passive and you want to just wait it out about everything! You think things will eventually work itself out.

And this is where I come to the problem of giving her space. Yes, I do believe she needs time and space. She hasn't seen me in a month. We have had limited communication in that time. But she has asked if I'm willing to sit down with her and talk, I think refusing to go would be a mistake.

Which leads to this...

He is not
going to persuade her to give him another chance to prove how great he
can be. She is done, over, and out of the MR. She will not hear a
single word he says, as long as she has no respect for him. I don't
think LBH's truly get it, b/c they have this idea that they need to
show the WW more love. WHAT?? Read my lips........she does not want
you showing her how much you love her! At this point, that's the last
thing she wants.

These guys buy into some kind of fantasy
that if they become her BFF, she'll eventually fall back in love with
him. I know that is what the DB coaches recommend, and I try to be
respectful to them.

My DB coach has recommended treating her as a friend right now. When I sit down with her my DB coach has suggested I listen/validate/empathize. I think I agree with Sandi...

How does he get her respect? Well, it's not by being a softie.

And herein lies my problem. I feel like validation is going to be more of the softie approach.

Am I incorrect? Tell me how I can apply both methods? It would bring me great relief to figure out a way to blend both sides.

[180Man]

As others have said, those notes are from a different time and place. Not useful now. While thinking of them may bring you temporary excitement, if you aren't careful it'll bring you nothing but pain...I say this because if you think that by trying them it will work, then you may be in for a painful lesson. Just be careful. Work on yourself and forget the notes.

Frankly - I disagree and think that they are quite useful as I think she has some good thoughts.

-Communicated better
So, what does this mean? To me, it doesnt mean it's time to run over and spill your guts. It means to communicate better...smarter. I think you should focus on more than just your words. This involves your listening skills, it involves your actions matching your words and mirroring her words. What can you do to communicate "BETTER"?

-Accepted their spouse's personality, looks, needs, and (some) behaviors & didn't try to change them
So....is there something you arent telling us about your interactions? How controlling would you say that you were in your M?

-Were happy people as being individuals as they are being a couple
In your first post, you said this: A little over a year ago I started to slide into depression. How have you fixed this?

-Could learn to give each other space
So do it. Now is a great time to give her space.

Yes, they are good thoughts. The info is old and from a different mindset. Should he make those changes in himself and become better at those things? Of course. But to do it in hopes of winning her back - just for that reason alone - is wrong, instead he should be doing it for himself...which would be better in future relationships with whoever.

Now, if he brought those up to her he may very well get a "too little, too late" response...or better...or worse. Who knows.

Well, I think you're both correct. Yes the information is old and from a different mindset, but I don't believe she would disagree with these ideas were she sitting here with us now. I don't think that they are necessarily something to "try out" on her like an experiment or that one of them may lead to reconciliation.

But I do think I should reflect on them, try to see how I might apply them to working on myself, and try to use them as guidelines, to some degree, when I am communicating with her.

As for the question on being controlling, I don't believe I was a controlling husband. There were aspects of our life where I guess I was controlling, for example, I didn't want her to get any more tattoos for many years. Only this last fall did I realize it wasn't fair for me to hold her back from that and I told her as much. I even went to the tattoo parlor with her and sat with her while she got a new one. Generally speaking though, we were very autonomous. I never demanded she be home at a specific time, I never questioned her whereabouts, I didn't tell her who she could or could not be friends with...nothing like that.

Sexually, we had some really amazing experiences over the years. But some of my OCD hangups caused her to feel, at times, that I wasn't attracted to her or thought she was gross. Maybe this is a reg flag, I don't know. We've talked about it since then and I've owned it. It's my problem, not hers. But there's not much I can do to change the past.

As far as depression, yes. I mean, the current situation isn't really helping, but I think all things considered I'm doing pretty well. I've been trying to GAL. Gym every day. Focusing on work more and trying to actually care about the stupid job I've been given. I've been spending more time with friends. I'm trying to find a good open-mic night around here so I can play some music in public again -- I used to have a band in college where we played the local bars, but I haven't played on a stage in nine or ten years. It would be a good thing for me.

So I'm probably not where I need to be when it comes to GAL yet, but I know I'm on the road there.

[MoveFrwd]

There is a HUGE difference between reading this:

"If we repay wrongs with kindness we put an end to revenge. If we repay wrongs with wrongs, revenge never ends"

to your wife, and just embodying it. From what you say, it sounds like you were trying to convince HER to change. That doesnt sound very validating to me.

In my opinion, your goal should be to BE the change. You arent going to convince her to do anything with your words. It's your actions.

So you show up. You act confidently. You engage in listening. You validate her feelings (not AGREE with them. VALIDATE them). That is anything but 'softie'.\

You say this:

And this is where I come to the problem of giving her space. Yes, I do believe she needs time and space. She hasn't seen me in a month. We have had limited communication in that time. But she has asked if I'm willing to sit down with her and talk, I think refusing to go would be a mistake.

Im not seeing your 'problem'. She asked for time, but you want to impose YOUR limit on what 'time' means. I think THATS your problem.



Through all of what you write, I notice a large focus on her. Im not seeing where you are regrowing into the 'man she fell in love with'. How can you focus more on THAT?

[180Man]

There is a HUGE difference between reading this:
to your wife, and just embodying it. From what you say, it sounds like you were trying to convince HER to change. That doesnt sound very validating to me.

I was in counseling working very hard to listen to what she had to say, what she thought our problems were leading up to this. Of course I can learn and improve my ability to validate, but I was anything but brow beating her with change.

In my opinion, your goal should be to BE the change. You arent going to convince her to do anything with your words. It's your actions.

Agreed. And only I can figure out what that looks like. Though I'm open to thoughts and suggestions, too.

So you show up. You act confidently. You engage in listening. You validate her feelings (not AGREE with them. VALIDATE them). That is anything but 'softie'.

Okay. I'm hearing you. I'm still confused, but I'm hearing what you're saying and I think I need to go think about it.

Im not seeing your 'problem'. She asked for time, but you want to impose YOUR limit on what 'time' means. I think THATS your problem.

Well, I think we're misunderstanding here. She did not ask for time. She asked for a divorce but offered multiple times to answer any questions I have (via email). I waited a couple of weeks and instead of emailing her with questions I emailed and called her out for avoiding the situation and our issues, for living in an echo chamber, for running away, for not being willing to talk to me face-to-face about our feelings. She replied two weeks later (this past Monday) and said she agreed that we should sit down and talk in person and asked if I would be willing to.

She asked me if I would be willing to talk to her. I didn't push this on her, I just told her she was avoiding our problems and running away. For all I knew she would never reply to that email and I would get served with papers.


Through all of what you write, I notice a large focus on her. Im not seeing where you are regrowing into the 'man she fell in love with'. How can you focus more on THAT?[/quote]

That's a good point and one I have been working on. I do need to focus more on me. And I need to remind myself of that as I go along. In fact, there's likely a fun part-time job I can get if I do some paperwork, some studying, and take an exam. It would be great for my resume and would be great for me personally. It would get me back to doing what I love, even if it's just on the side. So...yes...I need to do that.

[Deckard]

Hi 180,

I think Sandi's advice on the nice guy is most applicable to the LBS who is having an affair rubbed in their noses and thinking that becoming super H is the answer. Taking care of the cooking, cleaning, yardwork, kids etc. while the WW does whatever she pleases. The LBS thinks “Hey, look over here! See how much I love you?” and that’ll win the WW. The nice guy needs to set boundaries so the WW can start to respect them again. A woman can’t love a man she doesn’t respect.

Unless I missed something in your posts, I don’t see that. Are there boundaries you need to set? Are you doing any Super H things?

In your first post, you wrote “I felt like being nice and giving her space was just not doing anything. I felt like she was walking all over me and didn’t respect me for trying to make things work.”

How was she walking all over you? How did she show you disrespect? How long do you think this will take to turn around?

Have no expectations with the meeting with her. You called her out on talking face to face and then she asks to talk face to face. At least she’s listening. And I think Kaizen nailed it; being strong and empathetic are not mutually exclusive. You show strength by listening and understanding her point of view. You should use a lot of “I see your point of view”, “I understand that you feel that way”.

There is no reason to tell her you guys should work on things or let her know you want this to work out. She knows. Listen, validate and let her do all the talking.

You can do this.

[180Man]

Hi 180,

I think Sandi's advice on the nice guy is most applicable to the LBS who is having an affair rubbed in their noses and thinking that becoming super H is the answer. Taking care of the cooking, cleaning, yardwork, kids etc. while the WW does whatever she pleases. The LBS thinks “Hey, look over here! See how much I love you?” and that’ll win the WW. The nice guy needs to set boundaries so the WW can start to respect them again. A woman can’t love a man she doesn’t respect.

Unless I missed something in your posts, I don’t see that. Are there boundaries you need to set? Are you doing any Super H things?

In your first post, you wrote “I felt like being nice and giving her space was just not doing anything. I felt like she was walking all over me and didn’t respect me for trying to make things work.”

How was she walking all over you? How did she show you disrespect? How long do you think this will take to turn around?

I was starting to think that exact thing a couple hours ago -- that perhaps Sandi's posts were directed more at someone who's wife was currently having an affair. This affair, by all accounts, is over and has been for some time. So I feel like I'm in some inbetween phase between a WW and a WAW.

I don't know how long it will take to turn around. Could be never. Conceptually I understand this, but emotionally I still need to come to terms with it.

It felt like the more space I gave her, the more emotional distance she placed between us. She was slowly walling herself off. In counseling I would show up ready to listen and validate and she was often not completely open. She's very intelligent and could wordsmith her way around the counselor's questions. The counselor called her on it once or twice, but I felt like I was putting myself out there, trying to work on our marriage despite her affair, and she wasn't putting in the real effort. She would say "I know it doesn't seem like I'm trying, but I am, and the fact that I'm here should show that." And, yes, I agree, but showing up is only the first step. And she couldn't even do that for more than six weeks. I felt I was digging deep and trying to own my problems in the marriage and all she was doing was trying to find all of our faults.

Have no expectations with the meeting with her. You called her out on talking face to face and then she asks to talk face to face. At least she’s listening. And I think Kaizen nailed it; being strong and empathetic are not mutually exclusive. You show strength by listening and understanding her point of view. You should use a lot of “I see your point of view”, “I understand that you feel that way”.

There is no reason to tell her you guys should work on things or let her know you want this to work out. She knows. Listen, validate and let her do all the talking.

You can do this.

I hear what you guys are all saying. I met with my individual counselor today -- the same woman who saw both of us for the first week before suggesting we might be better served by the infidelity expert on staff -- that second counselor was garbage and didn't care about us as I think I detailed in my first post. Anyways, so she knows my wife to a point, obviously she hasn't seen her in a couple months, but it's at least a better foundation than a counselor who hasn't met your spouse. I explained to her this morning how I felt like I had these two paths I could choose with this coffee meeting and she agreed that I had, indeed, tried to validate and listen in marriage counseling. She said she didn't want to coach me and felt that from listening to me I already knew what path to take -- the strong/confident/tell her what's up path. She does believe that validation is a good idea but thinks it would be bad for both of us if I were to just show up and let her say whatever and basically get steam rolled.

So, when I listen to her or my close friends, it makes sense. But when I read what you guys are writing here, that also makes sense. Perhaps I do have more of a WAS at this point, I'm not sure. It seems Sandi has a different take on dealing with the WAS mentality, so perhaps I should go read that some and see how I feel about it all.

Thanks for your input, I just need to keep thinking I guess.