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Originally Posted By: miky152
I guess what I meant, though, is that taking a softer approach does run the risk of making you appear weak (emphasis on the word appear, because I realize it is anything but) and doesn't leave you with much leverage if she does decide to come back because she knows she has the upper hand.

The "upper hand" idea is something that I've been struggling with for a long time, and I've come to the conclusion that it's really an ego problem for me. I could make arguments as to why I have the upper hand. I could also make arguments that my W will ALWAYS have the upper hand because she's a woman and brings home about 25% of the income I bring home.

But this just continues to promote the "me vs. her" mentality, which really doesn't work for me. I spent a lot of energy between Nov and Jan trying to get the upper hand and all it did was stress me out and make me more resentful.

The loss of all physical and emotional intimacy with my W after 12 years of being together still gets to me sometimes and I go through periods of sadness. But being loving, kind, and helpful towards her no matter what actually helps ME feel better.

Originally Posted By: miky152
At least that's my fear...of course, what I hope happens is she wakes up and is herself again, and her remorse/empathy for what she put her family through overrides any of the more selfish tendencies. Probably unrealistic, but a guy can dream.

I'm certainly dreaming of the same outcome, but a reconciliation for me means starting over completely. I don't think my W and I could ever go back to the way things used to be. Trust has been broken on both sides and we will need to re-establish our relationship based on interdependence instead of codependence.

My W clearly has a secret life. It's evident in her actions. It might be as harmless as hanging out with new friends just to rediscover what makes her happy. Or she could be in a relationship with another man. Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.

Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now. But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.

When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.

It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.

Originally Posted By: miky152
And, just a small update and maybe some encouragement. Last night, as she was leaving she gave me a hug and told me she loved me. Was the first non-accidental and unprompted I love you in roughly 6 months.

This is my favorite part of your post miky!

*high five*

I can only hope that I can post this same news one day!


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BD: 2016/05/27
In-home separation: 2016/11/23
Nesting: 2017/06/11
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Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: miky152
I guess what I meant, though, is that taking a softer approach does run the risk of making you appear weak (emphasis on the word appear, because I realize it is anything but) and doesn't leave you with much leverage if she does decide to come back because she knows she has the upper hand.

The "upper hand" idea is something that I've been struggling with for a long time, and I've come to the conclusion that it's really an ego problem for me. I could make arguments as to why I have the upper hand. I could also make arguments that my W will ALWAYS have the upper hand because she's a woman and brings home about 25% of the income I bring home.

But this just continues to promote the "me vs. her" mentality, which really doesn't work for me. I spent a lot of energy between Nov and Jan trying to get the upper hand and all it did was stress me out and make me more resentful.

The loss of all physical and emotional intimacy with my W after 12 years of being together still gets to me sometimes and I go through periods of sadness. But being loving, kind, and helpful towards her no matter what actually helps ME feel better.

Originally Posted By: miky152
At least that's my fear...of course, what I hope happens is she wakes up and is herself again, and her remorse/empathy for what she put her family through overrides any of the more selfish tendencies. Probably unrealistic, but a guy can dream.

I'm certainly dreaming of the same outcome, but a reconciliation for me means starting over completely. I don't think my W and I could ever go back to the way things used to be. Trust has been broken on both sides and we will need to re-establish our relationship based on interdependence instead of codependence.

My W clearly has a secret life. It's evident in her actions. It might be as harmless as hanging out with new friends just to rediscover what makes her happy. Or she could be in a relationship with another man. Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.

Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now. But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.

When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.

It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.

Originally Posted By: miky152
And, just a small update and maybe some encouragement. Last night, as she was leaving she gave me a hug and told me she loved me. Was the first non-accidental and unprompted I love you in roughly 6 months.

This is my favorite part of your post miky!

*high five*

I can only hope that I can post this same news one day!


I quite liked this post, and it echoes a lot of the same thoughts I have on the matter...which is why I have chosen to walk a similar path.

I could easily issue ultimatums, cut off contact, maybe even start convincing myself that the marriage was toxic (like she clearly had) in hopes of easing my detachment...but in the end all of these things seem more like tactics or defense mechanisms instead of real DBing. I will admit, when I am at my weakest, these seems like attractive options, but the just don't feel right.

I totally get where you are coming from about being true to yourself...where I seem to get stuck (and perhaps overthink it too much) is there seems to be a fine line between being caring and being an enabler. I am terrible with boundaries, especially with respect to her, so I'm sure I cross that line several times daily. It used to bother me a lot, and it still does from time to time...but I am getting better at cutting myself some slack. At least I am aware, and in the grand spectrum of character flaws I suppose enabler is definitely on the milder side.

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Originally Posted By: Chris73
Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.

Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now.


Originally Posted By: Chris73
But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.

I will say that I dont think this makes you 'less of a man'. I think this is correct. All that imposing rules or timelines will do is force her to choose that lifestyle again and again.

Originally Posted By: Chris73
When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.

It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.

Heres my concern. What exactly are your boundaries. What kinds of behaviors are you willing to accept before it becomes 'too much' and you need to protect yourself. Im not trying to advocate divorce, but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?

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Originally Posted By: Kaizen
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.

Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now.


Originally Posted By: Chris73
But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.

I will say that I dont think this makes you 'less of a man'. I think this is correct. All that imposing rules or timelines will do is force her to choose that lifestyle again and again.

Originally Posted By: Chris73
When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.

It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.

Heres my concern. What exactly are your boundaries. What kinds of behaviors are you willing to accept before it becomes 'too much' and you need to protect yourself. Im not trying to advocate divorce, but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?


I have thought about this a lot, too...and the truth is I think you will know when you know. I feel like this approach is a transitional phase for those who aren't quite ready to completely detach or move to true LRT. If it works, great! If it doesn't, you can slowly detach and feel good about how you stayed true to yourself.

I think for me, the aha moment came when I realized that I needed to walk this path for me...to help ME deal with the situation. This should not be an effort or tactic to win your spouse back.

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As for what I am willing and not willing to accept...I don't know that I really place conditions on it. All those seem to do is get me in trouble.

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Great stuff to think about you guys. Thanks!

I will say that I do have a few boundaries in place. Some are obvious... abuse/neglect of my children, loss of control with alcohol or drugs, spending money out of control. None of these are happening right now. I must say that I was a little concerned about her alcohol consumption but it seems to have tapered off (at least in front of me). Meanwhile, she continues to work and contribute $ to the family, do her fair share of the chores around the house, cooks dinner for the kids (and me if I'm home), always comes home from wherever she goes to at night, takes good care of our kids, and goes to therapy once a week religiously.

The whole "girls gone wild" thing is mostly going on in my head based on assumptions I've made by observing her behavior. But I have no real proof that she's out of control when she goes out, I just assume the worst, which is probably the best thing for me to do.

As for other boundaries, there are 3 in my list above.

If my W ever starts talking to me about a man that she's involved with (perhaps in an attempt to legitimize the relationship) I plan to cut her off right away and tell her that this discussion crosses a boundary with me. She hasn't done this once yet.

The same goes for discussions about divorce. Not that I won't listen to her and try to validate her feelings if she brings up the subject. But asking me to help facilitate the legal process or voluntarily participating in mediation crosses the same boundary as leaving my home while we are still married. It goes against my principles and values.

Originally Posted By: Kaizen
but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?

See, I don't agree. I know everyone is different, but I'm learning that my sense of self has nothing to do with someone else's actions. Only how I respond to them. I love my W very much. She has issues that stem from way back. Never in her life has anyone ever fought for her or offered her emotional stability, and so she's running from it now. I've lived the first 42 years of my life always putting my needs first, being self-centered. So taking this stance is a huge growth opportunity for me. I refuse to be another person in her life who walks away from her. And that gives me an enormous sense of self-value.


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In-home separation: 2016/11/23
Nesting: 2017/06/11
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Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: Kaizen
but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?

See, I don't agree. I know everyone is different, but I'm learning that my sense of self has nothing to do with someone else's actions. Only how I respond to them. I love my W very much. She has issues that stem from way back. Never in her life has anyone ever fought for her or offered her emotional stability, and so she's running from it now. I've lived the first 42 years of my life always putting my needs first, being self-centered. So taking this stance is a huge growth opportunity for me. I refuse to be another person in her life who walks away from her. And that gives me an enormous sense of self-value.


Maybe Im not explaining things well. I agree that we get to choose how to treat other people. My ex did some pretty bad things, and I would say, through the whole thing, I was outwardly friendly. And I can say through the entire ordeal, I maintained my love for my ex.

That said, I wouldnt say that I always acted with kindness or friendship. I didnt want to be just a friend - I wanted to be a spouse. So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.

I guess to me, being all sunshine and roses regardless of what she does is not really be loving. To me, it's similar to a child throwing a tantrum; yes, you should maintain your emotional stability, yes you should remain calm, approachable, and friendly. But at the same time, you need to be able to be stern and say no, as necessary. Maybe thats what you are saying and Im misunderstanding. It just sounded like you are setting yourself up to be a doormat if you are going to show kindness and friendship regardless of what she does.

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Originally Posted By: Kaizen
Originally Posted By: Chris73
Originally Posted By: Kaizen
but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?

See, I don't agree. I know everyone is different, but I'm learning that my sense of self has nothing to do with someone else's actions. Only how I respond to them. I love my W very much. She has issues that stem from way back. Never in her life has anyone ever fought for her or offered her emotional stability, and so she's running from it now. I've lived the first 42 years of my life always putting my needs first, being self-centered. So taking this stance is a huge growth opportunity for me. I refuse to be another person in her life who walks away from her. And that gives me an enormous sense of self-value.


Maybe Im not explaining things well. I agree that we get to choose how to treat other people. My ex did some pretty bad things, and I would say, through the whole thing, I was outwardly friendly. And I can say through the entire ordeal, I maintained my love for my ex.

That said, I wouldnt say that I always acted with kindness or friendship. I didnt want to be just a friend - I wanted to be a spouse. So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.

I guess to me, being all sunshine and roses regardless of what she does is not really be loving. To me, it's similar to a child throwing a tantrum; yes, you should maintain your emotional stability, yes you should remain calm, approachable, and friendly. But at the same time, you need to be able to be stern and say no, as necessary. Maybe thats what you are saying and Im misunderstanding. It just sounded like you are setting yourself up to be a doormat if you are going to show kindness and friendship regardless of what she does.


That's the line between being caring and being an enabler that I was talking about...and I feel like that line is different for everyone (and quite frankly may move in a specific relationship, depending on how the WS is acting).

Also, there is a difference between understanding and supporting. Just because you are kind, and maybe even happy or flirty...it doesn't mean you agree with or support their actions.

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Thanks Kaizen. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to be helpful. I remember one time that the DB phone coach I talked to told me to treat her like my sister. I would invite my sister to a movie, and do her a favor if she asked me. I wouldn't be bothered by her actions unless they affected me directly, so I would not spy on her or give her the third degree about her whereabouts. I try to apply that concept as often as I can.

Originally Posted By: Kaizen
So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.

Could you give me an example of this? I'd like to understand the specifics of how you applied this way of behaving...


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BD: 2016/05/27
In-home separation: 2016/11/23
Nesting: 2017/06/11
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Originally Posted By: Chris73
Thanks Kaizen. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to be helpful. I remember one time that the DB phone coach I talked to told me to treat her like my sister. I would invite my sister to a movie, and do her a favor if she asked me. I wouldn't be bothered by her actions unless they affected me directly, so I would not spy on her or give her the third degree about her whereabouts. I try to apply that concept as often as I can.

Originally Posted By: Kaizen
So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.

Could you give me an example of this? I'd like to understand the specifics of how you applied this way of behaving...


I guess my situation was a little different. I was physically separated from my ex before I found any of the DB information. But for me, at some point, I realized that I wasnt a babysitter and I didnt have to 'jump' any time I was told to.

So I stopped saying yes to every favor I was asked. I started doing what I wanted to. If I was free and wanted to do something fun with the kids, I did; if I had plans, then I didnt. One time my ex said "This [censored] that the kids are sick. I really cant take off work." and I validated, sure, but didnt offer to fill-in as babysitter if it was needed.

These are not great examples, I get that. My point is more that I stopped going out of my way to appease my ex. In your initial list, you said always treat your W with kindness. To me, that sounds like you are always going to be saying 'yes' to her, to do things that will make her happy. One of my greatest growth areas was learning how to say 'no'.

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