Help - Setting Boundaries, WW in EA - Thread #3

[Woke_Up]

Gordie

Thanks, that's good advice - maybe I have been focussing on doing the hard stuff, the stuff that goes against my years of conditioning. Even stopping snooping will be a victory for me - I did manage it for a few weeks since coming on this forum, but then relapsed.

Agree re. the spew - I think I will say something, as it was always a point of contention that I would 'run away' from arguments rather than sort them out. Although sorting them out was never often achieved, and isn't happening at the moment.

I did a little bit of googling on co-dependency last night, after what you said, and there were several alarm bells there with my behaviours. Low self confidence, need to rescue/fix, poor self boundaries, not having the ability to say no.

I see now in this and in past relationships I have been trying to rescue from whatever difficult situation my partner was in, or from previous bad relationships (as in this case, trying to prove that all men aren't the same, that I was a good guy). I have also let go of all of my old friends, mostly since my D arrived, but also because any of my former GAL activities were 'selfish'. I used to DJ and Wakeboard regularly. In fact, I met WW at an afterparty, connected with DJ'ing. Music used to be something we had in common, now it doesn't feature much in our lives.

I have also had issues before when so called 'friends' asked me for money to help them out of a sticky situation, and I was unable to say no, against my better judgement, and then had to move heaven and earth to get the money back. Poor boundaries.

I didn't have poor parental relationships, neither were addicts of anything. I am the youngest of 3 children, we did lose our father when I was 5 years old, and my mother remarried when I was 7. Although there has never been any attempt to obliterate any memories, it has also never been something we have spoken about. My communication with my parents is awful - and that works both ways. In fact, although my mother loves me dearly, and I know this, she never ever says it. I have taken to telling her I love her at the end of phone calls, now that I am in a family where telling each other that we love them is normal. She still never says it back, I think it makes her uncomfortable, although I am not sure why.

I am currently researching IC's close to where my new job is, so I can start working through some of these issues.

[Gordie]

Woke up,

Good work on doing some hard work on you. Keep asking the hard questions about yourself. I'm going to give you the advice others have given me. Take your eyes off of your W and focus on you separate from your W and your R. Start doing the hard work on you. It will help you no matter what happens with your W. What kind of man do you want to be? What do you want to change about yourself...for you?

[Woke_Up]

Things I wish to improve about me: Confidence and assertiveness as and when required. I need to stop second guessing myself and over analysing things. More comfortable with making decisions, not to defer to other as much. More balanced in my life, with time for family, me, and work, and the ability to be more proactive with getting things done, which links to the confidence issue.

I'm doing alright in some respects, I've done OK job and career wise, I'm getting back into probably the best shape I've been in for 10 years, if not 20 years.

But your gentle truth dart hits home - I have still been seeing myself and W as a couple, in R, and focusing on trying to get the EA to stop, get rid of OM, to enable the rift healing to begin. People are right, even though you know, academically, that this won't work, you don't know until you know inside. I think this week, moving from "'I'm going to end it' to ML to 'screw you, I'm emigrating to be with OM', to 'I'm torn, but you'll never change'", has been a clear demonstration of the WW mindset: All over the bloody place.

I only hope I can have the patience and perseverance you have been demonstrating to see me through this and out the other side, a stronger and better man.

[Woke_Up]

I said a while ago I would share my initial goals & objectives. I wrote these back in December, after I received the DR book and started going through it.

First pass:
1. To have more relaxed conversations with me taking a more active and proactive role
2. To be able to have conflict and resolve it without feeling extreme discomfort or resorting to belittling each other
3. To be able to relax around each other and spend more time enjoying each other's company

Second pass:
1.
I will start conversations more often
I will listen attentively when W speaks
W will show interest in what I say
W will explain better what she has been listening to or learning so that I feel part of it

2.
W will not call me insulting names or insult my personality or upbringing when we have an argument
I will not feel the need to escape the conflict to cool down
I will feel happy that we can argue and resolve issues with out insults
I will not patronise W or act morally superior

3.
We will sit on the sofa together, watching a movie or talking
We will share the same bed
We will go out together occasionally (once per month)

Other things I wrote down trying to be more specific:
We will build trust
I will not snoop or spy on her communications
W will make me feel good enough for her, by use of small words and actions
I will not portray W in a bad light when talking about her
W will not belittle me in front of children or family
I will not condescend, patronise or talk over W in front of children or family/friends
We will be supportive of each other's decisions in front of others and keep our disagreements private

Anyway, these were my thoughts back then. I'd appreciate your feedback on them.

[Woke_Up]

So, after Saturday being pretty awful, Sunday was more settled.
I got up. made us both coffee as I usually do - I know what people have said on here, and I asked my DB coach about this issue, she said, well would you do it for a friendly house guest?
I took SS16 to his part time job, came home, got busy, .
while W took D5 to a friend. Later, I picked up S16 and then went shopping for food (she also asked me to fuel her car up while I was at the supermarket!)
When I came home, WW was in the garden. I joined her after a while, helped with getting rid of some rather thorny and overgrown weeds that were taking over.

I made dinner for a change, W was feeling pretty ill, but conversation was OK. She is still obsessing over her looks, complaining how the botox hasn't worked properly, booked herself in for some eyebrow tattoos! (When I pointed out we didn't have money for that - it's not cheap, and with starting the new contact there is a hiatus before my invoices start getting paid again - she said the money could come out of our savings and she would repay it. As it is half her money, I said she could do that.)

When we have talked, we have kept it about non stressful topics, and I have managed to make her laugh a few times.

Later, after we got D5 to bed, I told her I was going out. She wanted to know why and where I was going - so I said just for a walk or a drive, and have to time to myself as I hadn't managed to earlier. She asked me to be careful. I went out for a nice walk, just a few miles, about 45 minutes. It did me good, and aided my sleeping. Something quite calming about walking round the pitch black English countryside at night.

Came home, went to bed - W asked me to wake her up before I left in the morning, so I did, at about 5:45am. Bit later than usual.

On the train to London now, W has been texting me. Tells me she feels terrible, and is having panic attacks, or that maybe something is wrong with her chest.

I ask if anything particular has triggered the attacks, and that we can get her into hospital to be looked at if she thinks it is physical. She replied that I probably her ridiculous situation.

I suggested meditation/mindfulness to help her with her panic attacks and breathing, but she said she need to take her focus off her breathing. She said her chest had gone physically tight through the stress, and she knew what was causing it, but couldn't say on a text... apparently because I am not good with having things in writing (she meant that I have sent screen shots to OM previously to prove we were still together).

Then she messages me that she feels sick - I ask if it is a bug she has picked up or related to anxiety. She said it feels related to something else, but I tell her it is highly unlikely she is pregnant yet, if that is what she means. She agreed that it was probably not that.

So, many riddles this morning. When she does things like this, I wonder if she has done something stupid, like persuade OM to come to the UK, and is stressing about it. But I can't mind read, and these sorts of thoughts are how I persuade myself to snoop again, so I need to stop them.

I've been responding & engaging too much, I think I need to keep it a bit of a lighter touch.

[Woke_Up]

OK, so I was just reading back on LT's sitch and Zues was giving some good advice on validating, boundaries and managing disrespect.

Today, I have managed to screw up again.

WW has her grandma's funeral to attend, but just as I was getting to the office (after a near 3 hr journey) I get a message saying D5 is ill, and can't go to school.

The relevant text messages were as follows:
W: I can't take D to school, she's ill xx
W: I don't know what to do now. Can you call the school and say she has a temp and a headache.
W: Looks like I won't be able to attend the funeral x
M: On it xx you need me to come home early? xx
W: Have to be there just before 2 xx
M: Let me see what I can do xx
M: That's OK, I can leave at 11, get the 11:30 train. I'll check trains from city to village.

There were some other bits and pieces - she asked me to see if SS16 could come home from school, then I phoned her to clarify. She agreed she wanted me home as SS didn't want to miss any lessons, and I'm pretty sure I told her what time the train got into the city - I then need to catch a rural service as my car is in having the brakes sorted.

The problem arose with my misunderstanding - I thought she meant she wanted me home just before 2, expecting the funeral to be at 2:30. She meant that she had to be there just before 2...

So, just jump on the rural train at the city station, at 1:30, send this:

M: I get to village station at 10 to 2, that means I get home about 5 past, is that OK?
W: The funeral is at 2
W: and how r u getting home
M: bike
M: S##t, i could get off at earlier stop if you can meet me there with D5 and then I'll drop you off?
M: or meet me at village station?
W: wtf
M: Is D well enough to go in the car?
W: tw@t
W: I thought S16 would be the problem
M: You said I had to be there just before 2. Sorry
W: No I didn't, I'm trying to get ready
M: Ah, [censored], sorry love
W: I said the funeral is at 2
W:You are a [censored]
W:Explain that to the whole crowd.
W:I can't go them can I. [censored]
M: This is a screw up but there's no need for that. Meet me at the village station with D5 and I'll drive you straight there

No answer from W, plus poor reception. I phoned her from the village station and she was still getting ready, so I cycled home. She was in the car about to leave, D5 was inside crying, as she thought mummy was leaving her alone.

I interrupted the typing of this msg because she got back home. She sat in the car for 10 minutes on her phone. When she came in I asked her how it was. She said terrible, she missed most of it, her dad's speech, and started telling me how I was an idiot, I had known it was at 2 (this is true, it was mentioned a week or 2 ago, I just forgot), that I couldn't be trusted, and the spew just escalated. The insults and belittling, all in front of D5. I tried to validate, say that it was a genuine mistake on my part, but W wouldn't listen. She said this was why she couldn't stand me.

I had to say I wasn't going to be talked to that way, and it shouldn't happen in front of D, got up to leave the room (I was sitting at my desk in the study). She tried to physically block me from leaving the room, started saying that's right run away.

I had to walk around the desk to get out of the room. I walked into the living room, and said we can talk in there. She refused, then went into the kitchen. I went into the kitchen to talk to her, she told me to get out, to get out of her face - in context, I wasn't in her face, we were separated by a kitchen island, length ways. I said that I was there to speak, that I though she wanted to speak. She came round the kitchen island and physically attacked me, tried to hit me, which I stopped, then tried to kick me. I left then. SS16 arrived shortly afterwards, went up to see her (she was in her room by then). He asked me what had happened, I explained, said that I misunderstood, that I screwed up. WW came down, accused my of lying, said that I had to be told these things, and that it had to be said in front of people so that they knew how dangerous I was with my stupidity. Said I should apologise for grabbing her wrists - so I had to explain in front of the kids that she tried to hit me. She said it was my fault, that she told me to leave, so I should have.

Spew continued a while. Brought up some other stuff I had said (like when we were arguing and unable to resolve it, in front of D, I had said I didn't want D to be like her (meaning in terms of arguing). I followed up with I didn't want her to be like me either, that I wanted her to be better, able to deal with things, but I agree, it was a sh!tty thing to say. W said that I couldn't expect to have things on my terms, i.e. leaving the room, I wasn't God, I didn't get to decide what was moral. That I was a stupid man who couldn't understand english, and I needed to be told and the kids needed to hear it. They would be fine, they needed to know life was hard. etc etc.

So... question. How the hell do I deal with this? I don't have the emotional skill set to deal with it effectively. W needs to rage. This funeral issue has upset her even more, understandably. But this is unacceptable even for an upset woman. Any advice? What sort of boundary do I apply in this scenario, particularly when she is upset about missing the funeral. Or do I just get the hell out of dodge for a while? Let her cool down?

[Gordie]

Why are you blaming this all on you? Why did both of you see it as your problem to fix? Do you really do everything (small and big) that your W requests of you? Couldn't W have called the school to tell D was sick herself? Couldn't W have figured out a solution (either get someone to watch the kids or take the sick kid to the funeral...I know neither are ideal, but life is not ideal)?

And where are your boundaries?

*She called and texted you disrespectful names.
*She spewed at you in front of the children.
*She tried to hit and kick you.
*She claimed that you were violent against her.

And if these are boundaries, what are the consequences of crossing them? And if they aren't boundaries...can she do anything without consequences? Spend all of the money in your joint account? Spew at and hit the children? F*** the OM in the MBR while you make her coffee?

[Woke_Up]

Why are you blaming this all on you? Why did both of you see it as your problem to fix? Do you really do everything (small and big) that your W requests of you? Couldn't W have called the school to tell D was sick herself? Couldn't W have figured out a solution (either get someone to watch the kids or take the sick kid to the funeral...I know neither are ideal, but life is not ideal)?

Yes, she could have called the school, but she never does. She always sends me a msg to do it. I don't know why she is unwilling do do this. On the others, yea, she could have. Her view is since that I offered to come home, I let her down - she would have had S16 come home to babysit.

And where are your boundaries?

Good question. I attempted to apply them as follows:

[quote]*She called and texted you disrespectful names.

I responded that there was no need for it, I did not offer a consequence.

[quote]*She spewed at you in front of the children.

I told her it was not appropriate and that I would talk in another room. I left the room, first time. Second time she was standing in the doorway with S and D both in the room, there would have been no way I could exit without physically moving her. I told her it wasn't good for the kids and I didn't want to normalise what was happening. She raged that who was I to determine what was normal.

*She tried to hit and kick you.

Yes, she did. I stopped her. I left the room, but that was what she wanted by then anyway.

*She claimed that you were violent against her.

She did, and I corrected her in front of the kids. Although she said if I didn't get out of the room when she told me to then I deserved to get punched! Madness.

And if these are boundaries, what are the consequences of crossing them?

That's where I have never been able to make any headway. What can I do except leave the house? Which is what she wants half the time? If she puts me in a position where I can't exit without physically moving her? What do you do when you are trapped in that way? What do I do afterwards?

And if they aren't boundaries...can she do anything without consequences? Spend all of the money in your joint account? Spew at and hit the children? F*** the OM in the MBR while you make her coffee?

Well, we don't have a joint account, but often she does a good job of spending the money that she gets as half of this dysfunctional duo on stuff that isn't really necessary- but stopping her money is controlling, and she is employed by my company (just the 2 of us), plus she is a 25% shareholder.

She sometimes spews at the kids, mostly S16 , but to be fair, he can be quite bolshy. It's not usually spew with the kids, it's frustration and wanting the best for them. She has never hit them and I don't believe she would. But you are right - she believes she is entitled to do whatever the hell she wants. This is not because she is wayward. She is wayward because she feels entitled. In her mind I am sure she feels the victim in her waywardness.

I need to sort that IC as soon as possible, because I am not handling this in a healthy way for me or the kids. I remember in our early arguments, W's going on point was if you don't like it, you can leave. Negotiating with a terrorist springs to mind.

But I am open to advice from anyone who has handled similar situations? An aggressive W, when you are not an aggressive person. Being followed and trapped around the house, etc. Kids being brought into the sitch. What is left as a consequence other than leaving, which I don't want to do.

[doodler]

But I am open to advice from anyone who has handled similar situations? An aggressive W, when you are not an aggressive person. Being followed and trapped around the house, etc. Kids being brought into the sitch. What is left as a consequence other than leaving, which I don't want to do.

Woke_Up,

Be observant of how your wife handles you. Lose the fear and use her tactics.

[Woke_Up]

Doodler

She is going for aggression, threats, manipulation, disrespect.

She is now saying she will take back the MBR again, move my stuff out when I am at work, put locks on the door. She won't have me attack her - Says I would have to attack her to get in.

She is continuing to talk about S in front of D5, and even manipulating using D5. When I said D5 couldn't watch videos on her tablet, as it was bed time, come back a minute later to find W has given her her phone, and then I have the drama when I take it off her. W the acts the good guy, cuddling D5. She was using the fact that I phoned one of my oldest friends tonight, saying I was lying and using him for financial advice. Trying to talk about S and custody arrangements, and who gets the house and how my only interest is money... followed by her saying I would have to keep her in the manner to which she is accustomed - for the kids benefit :-/

Then she said that she would talk to her 'friend'. Talk to him about her grandmother's funeral (as I hadn't asked). Bearing in mind that when I asked how it was, that was what kicked off the massive rage and attempted physical assault earlier. This was in front of D5, so D5 asks who her friend is. She tells her he lives a long way away, and when D5 asks, tells her his name. All the while looking at me and gloating, sneering. I left the room.

Then she gets her weed, which she was supposed to be giving up, and goes out back to smoke.

Not sure I can use those tactics against her... All I can do is stand up to her and let her know she won't get it all her own way. I'm crying inside for my poor kids.