Sorry to interupt you lovely guys. Nice to see men supporting other men!!
I did however just want to add a woman's perspective. Also let me apologise upfront, I haven't read all your posts and know your situation. So please ignore anything I have to say, I so won't be offended. I rarely post these days, only when I am inspired.
So then, as a woman reading what she your wife said lt0402.. your wife's simply really p***ed off and to me she sounds like she has been carrying around alot of anger and resentment for many years. And NOW you want to show up and be the guy she always wanted. She told you twice that you two can't have a conversation, and you continued to proceed.
If you are going to save this marriage, I think you would benefit from reall listening what she is telling you. Listen and validate. Your wife doesn't sound like a wayward or MLC spewer to me. But I am no expert. She sounds like she really wants you to listen.
My friend Zues, talks repeatedly about how easy it is for us to diagnose our other halves, rather than opening ourselves up to truly hearing and empathising with our spouses experience. To be frank nothing about the above says diagnosable mental health issues. She is a woman going through a change and is directionless and trying to manage emotions. You are doing the same and you are confusing her too with your behaviour. She told you as much.
Just another impression, you seem a little Mr Fix it. Offering up a whole lot of solutions about whole lot of things. I can tell you I want nothing less from my partner, when I am feeling confused and overwhelmed to hear his likely very marvellous and helpful solutions. I remember when I was in therapy discussing my difficulties with MR Ex. I always felt extraordinarly uncared for, unheard and frustrated by him rushing to solutions. Particularly when I felt we had not discussed the "real issue" or he hadn't really listened.
Think you wife has a real issue she wants you to understand and you aren't getting it. The real issue I feel is she's angry for the years you didn't do.....(fill in the gap).
In addition if I was thinking about leaving you, I wouldn't want to buy a house with you. I would be working towards either maintaining the status quo or something that was temporary. Her decision to not enter into something that it going to cause more difficulty to undo for the two of you, if your marriage doesn't get back into a good place, is a sensible one. It may well be something that you too should consider before jumping into major change.
As for your W other presentation about being indecisive and not knowing what she wants. Her marriage and family is potentially ending. Why wouldn't she be confused and indecisive, emotional snappy and unreasonable. You're struggling why wouldn't she?
I don't disagree that your wife accessing IC or other support is a good idea. I just don't think there is enough evidence to say she has mental health issues. She seems angry and resentful to me, pretty typical for a WAW.
I saw Jelly's name and couldn't help but read a few posts. She makes a good point, those that diagnose and blame their WAS's render themselves powerless to make positive change. Those that are accountable for their role have a road map for actions they can take that may save their family.
A couple of things stood out for me. I did cut/paste a few of your words, but not to change their meaning, only to organize them into some of the things I noticed.
The first thing is that your WAS seems to be telling you she feels that she has no voice in your relationship. She tells you that she feels you aren't hearing her and that you haven't for many years, and that because of this she endured more pain than she can manage anymore and she doesn't trust you to hear her now. And when she tells you this you disagree some more. Some of those highlights:
Quote:
She says where was I the past ten years when she was begging me to change bc she was unhappy. Where was I when she was doing everything from work to childcare to house stuff.
We haven't had a conversation in years or done anything as a couple in close to ten.
Last Monday when I asked W what she wanted in a new house she told me it didn't matter. She also said "how can we look for a house together when we can't even have a conversation".
She tells me she'd like to rent a house, move all our stuff in there, and then sell our house empty. She says that bc we don't have a ton of furniture it would show better that way. I mention that we could get a storage unit to get stuff into to make the house less cluttered to show.
We talked about the work we need to do and the realtors thoughts about the house. W got mad bc I asked why not buy a house if we find one.
I asked her what she was looking for in a place. She said she didn't care and I would just override her anyway and not listen to her. I told her that's not what I wanted as part of this process. Told her I wanted us to make the decisions as partners. She said we aren't capable of working as a team on anything. I should just find a house and tell her to look at it.
She said she didn't want to buy a house bc I promised to do all sorts of work on this house and I never followed through. I told her I'm sorry she felt that way but I do not agree.
I expressed my concern that we rent a place and can't sell this place. She asked if it was as big of a problem if she was working. I told her it would help but it's still an issue. She said she wanted to go back to work full time but she could t bc of all the house responsibilities. I told her that we should make a list and split the work. I'm happy to help with the workload. She told me there's no way she'd believe me after I didn't do it with this house.
W tells me we have never been a family (ouch). Not once in the past ten years. I tell her I'm sorry she's felt that way but I don't agree with it. She says I never agree with anything anymore.
She starts to talk about D. How D is miserable around me the past 3 weeks. How I haven't listened to her over that period and it's crushed her. I tell W that I'll talk to D and discuss what's going on but that I can manage that with her. I tell her that my relationship with D is the strongest it's ever been.
WAS has her version of reality which is just as right and true and reasonable as you do. And feelings are feelings. They can't be wrong. While you may feel differently than she does, that doesn't mean her feelings aren't real and that her views aren't legitimate.
When I read your responses I can see why she might feel defeated. You aren't hearing anything she is saying. You are minimizing, diminishing, dismissing, disagreeing, or at best placating. You say you want to do things jointly, as long as it fits the relationship repair program you seem to have etched in your mind and meets your timelines as well.
I'd recommend you read the validation cheat sheet a few times a day for a while and to reread some of your posts and conversation highlights.
What if...what if...what if? What if her feelings were legitimate, and because of how you've acted in the past she has suffered and has very valid reasons for being protective of herself and mistrustful of you? Wouldn't this be good information to know if you want to save your marriage?
The next section has to do with the talk of feelings and timelines:
Quote:
I'll not put things on hold for 9 yrs to grind out an existence with someone who does not want to share a life with me.
I tell W that I love D and I love her. But That if this is as good as it gets we need to discuss things. I tell her I'm not ok with anyone being unhappy. That I want each of us to be happy and be a family.
W needs to know that going back to our previous M is unacceptable to me. We will see.
Silence then I told her I can see that you are unhappy and I'm not ok with you being unhappy. W tells me f$ck you, you have no right to tell me that. She gets up, cries, checks on D, blows nose and comes back. I tell her again that I'm not ok with her being unhappy and I'm unhappy too. I tell her that none of us should be unhappy. I need someone who will love me and who will let me love them.
You talk a lot about happy and love. You also talk about what you will and won't accept in your life, which in the context of a marriage that is on the verge of breaking up can escalate things very quickly.
My newcomer advice always includes this disclosure: Don't follow your feelings, they are a horrible compass as they will be bouncing around haywire for a while. Don't trust your thoughts, your thoughts are just rationalizations of your feelings. Instead, follow your BELIEFS. Those are the things you know to be right and are greater than yourself. They will steer you through. I also throw out the challenge that if you can't stick to your beliefs despite how you feel, how can you expect her to do any better? Act with the character you wish she had.
What are your beliefs about divorce? Is it ok to divorce because your spouse doesn't want to work on their marriage the way you feel you should work on it, when you want them to? You throw out timelines and conditions, how do you excuse your own neglect for the last 10 years and now demand her instant prioritization of your needs? Is it because she was wrong to feel that way for 10 years, but you're right to feel the way you feel now?
Personally I think that happiness and love are lousy reasons to talk divorce. Emotions are just a reflection of how we've been treating each other lately. If you learn to treat each other differently, the emotions can and will change. Emotions don't lead, they follow. Love is a decision, not a feeling. And divorce is a decision as well.
In the end no one is going to be 'happy' if happy means getting everything they want. The question is whether we want to be unhappy and separate and blame our spouse and raise children in a broken home setting a poor example that will hurt their future relationships, or do we want to be unhappy and accept that it's because the world is difficult and we don't always get what we want but honor the commitments we made and live for things beyond our current mood so we can be unhappy inside of an intact family with good kids and a dependable partner and maybe somedays when you least expect it realize that love means acting loving when you don't feel like it and you are surprised to feel fulfilled in a way more meaningful than just getting what you thought you wanted at the moment?
lt, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could benefit from some humility here. DR calls it the beginner's mind. The idea that you may be missing something, there is something going on you might not be able to see if you think you can see it all. I hear you shouting your own narrative of how you see things and what's happening, and it's drowning out what she's telling you.
I get it, it's hard and scary because if you listen to what she's telling you it might not be what you want to hear, and maybe that means you have to accept things you don't want to accept, like the loss of a marriage, or the fact you won't get everything you want in your life, or that you might not always be happy. But there's also a chance that begins a true dialogue the likes of which WAS has been craving for years, and that there is a way for things to work out to a point that, while not able to meet all of your demands, might be wholesome and fulfilling in ways you can't even appreciate right now.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Thanks my friend, that was exactly what I was trying very badly to articulate. Zues' comments and reflections are solid LT. Take them and marinade in them. See where they take you. Wishing you only the very best from this journey. Jellyb xxx
FG/DonH/JellyB/Zues, first off, thank you so much for all your thoughts as always. JellyB and Zues, i appreciate you bringing in a different view of things as well. I do become concerned that at times I pigeon hole my thinking on this stuff, so your perspective is helpful. FG and DonH, you both know that you are my rocks and have been crucial in helping me figure this stuff out.
Let me think through my response to all this and come back when i've got a chunk of time in front of the computer. Some good things to churn through here. Will be back later today. Thank you all!
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
I do appreciate the different angle offered by Jelly & Zeus. As DB coaches like to say, YOU are the one on the "front lines" so only you know how best various advices offered apply to your situation.
I do hope it is the case that Jelly & Zeus's take on the situation is right. Maybe if you (LT) spent a couple of weeks totally focusing on: a) really listening to your W; b) try not to fix a single thing, don't be a fixer; c) respect her every wish.
Maybe it's worth trying to see if that changes her anger & contempt for you? Or maybe you've already tried this....
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
FG, I'm unsure my W will agree to go get professional help. She seems to have alot pent up inside her (anger, resentment, contempt) and on the surface it seems like it'd do alot of good to see an IC. I've suggested once before, after we did that one session of MC, but have not harped on it bc of the thought that it comes off as controlling. I have been thinking about taking her to the previous MC whom she seemed to open up to, but that was an attack fest on me there. I think going that approach would spell the end of my M, which may be worth it if it gets my W to a better place. Here's an example of our dialogue via text while i'm at work today:
Me: "Hey you. How's your day going? Ran into the neighbor, they said we could come over and check out their cabinets to see the work the contractor did. Thinking about grabbing D flowers for V. day, what do you think?"
W: "I already saw the cabinets and got an estimate. I told you that. I'm getting a couple more. You don't need to worry about that, i will give you the estimates tomorrow. I'm already handling it like i told you i was. Stop asking me how my day is going like you care. D already has flowers at home."
Me: "ok, let's discuss the estimates tomorrow and we can decide. I am curious how your day is going but i get that you don't want to talk about it."
W: "Why? Why do you pretend to ask about my day all of a sudden. Why do you pretend everything is fine. I'm genuinely asking bc it makes zero sense and is making things worse. it is fake. it is insulting."
Me: "I understand how you could see it that way. I took away from chatting w/ you on fri that things are not fine. How can we make things better for you?"
W: "Are you f'ing kidding me?"
Me: "No"
I'm lost in how to interact with her. At this point maybe i'm not supposed to. The interactions are just so brutal. The continuation of stuff like that just makes it seem like a dimmer and dimmer chance we can reconnect. Starting to feel worn down at this point. Maybe that's what she's attempting to do, i don't know.
DonH, i definitely don't want my D to model my Ws current behavior. D seems well balanced, but I could see how that'd be a risk. I refuse to have Ws anxiety drive our family anymore, but i tend to choose which battles are worth fighting. Last night I caught flack from her because i went in the kitchen when she was in there. She got angry and said "could you just have not waited 2 minutes until i'm out of the kitchen?". I looked at her and just responded back "i'd appreciate you not speaking to me like that". It's tiring constantly having to beat back though. The dynamic is only different now bc i push back when she flies off the handle. Trying to work on what i can fix with me, but not seeing any budging on her end.
JellyB, very interested in your thoughts on this. I find myself very quick to try to interpret Ws actions as stubborn/hateful/purposeful. She was, and may still be, a WW. However, i do know from conversations that she holds a massive amount of resentment/contempt that has been building up since day 1 of our M. Her consistent messages to me are:
1) I never took the time to have conversations with her or hear her 2) I never helped her with our D 3) I never did what i said i would do with regards to housework, especially the yard
I have worked hard to remedy #2 and #3, as well as some other flaws i've realized i have as a man/person. I know i've only scratched the surface of the work I need to do. I'm wholly unsure how to press forward w/ her reacting to me how she is currently, though. As you can tell, i've reinvigorated work on #1, but there seems to be no traction to be gained using my current approach. I do get how that resentment would have built up over time until we got here.
I've tried to really listen to her, but all i get in return from her is that I "sound like a therapist". Perhaps it's in my delivery. I'll re-read the validation thread and I've also got a book on communciation i've been meaning to rip into once i get through my current on on boundaries.
Originally Posted By: JellyB
My friend Zues, talks repeatedly about how easy it is for us to diagnose our other halves, rather than opening ourselves up to truly hearing and empathising with our spouses experience. To be frank nothing about the above says diagnosable mental health issues. She is a woman going through a change and is directionless and trying to manage emotions. You are doing the same and you are confusing her too with your behaviour. She told you as much.
Ok, so this slams home. I guess my dilemma (besides working to empathize more w/ her experience) is how do i keep my changes/behavior from confusing her. I know that I cannot provide the direction for her as she works her way through her journey, but I struggle with how not to interact with her as we still share the same home. One of the issues we had was conflict avoidance and completely shutting down interaction with her seems like more of the same. I am trying to challenge her where necessary (i.e. the house stuff, my need for a partner who will love me and allow me to love them, etc) in order to create some friction w/ the hope of gaining some traction for things. I feel like if i leave things to stew then I know where this path leads and it's 9 yrs of angst until D goes off to college. I'm 100% open to your thoughts around anything here please.
Originally Posted By: JellyB
In addition if I was thinking about leaving you, I wouldn't want to buy a house with you. I would be working towards either maintaining the status quo or something that was temporary. Her decision to not enter into something that it going to cause more difficulty to undo for the two of you, if your marriage doesn't get back into a good place, is a sensible one. It may well be something that you too should consider before jumping into major change.
Good point. I also would like some direction before we go this route, but i'm not averse to the idea. If we go into this with uncertainty, then i'd want the home to be something one of us could afford by ourselves. One of the reasons i want to have this conversation with her before we sell our current home.
Originally Posted By: JellyB
As for your W other presentation about being indecisive and not knowing what she wants. Her marriage and family is potentially ending. Why wouldn't she be confused and indecisive, emotional snappy and unreasonable. You're struggling why wouldn't she?
All good points and highlights a need for compassion on my part. To me, it's more of the same behaviour on her end though. Highly frustrating as I've lived with it for years and am realizing now how damaging it is to not stand up to it. But appreciate the thread you have throughout your message around compassion and empathy.
Originally Posted By: JellyB
Anyway that is my 2c. Feel free to ignore.
All very much read, understood, and being slowly digested. Thank you so much Jelly for your thoughts!
Originally Posted By: Zues126
The first thing is that your WAS seems to be telling you she feels that she has no voice in your relationship. She tells you that she feels you aren't hearing her and that you haven't for many years, and that because of this she endured more pain than she can manage anymore and she doesn't trust you to hear her now. And when she tells you this you disagree some more.
I'm unsure how to break this roadblock in our communication. I get that it's me who isn't hearing her, but I do feel like i'm leaps and bounds from where i had been. Whenever we talk, she always asks for me to answer her thoughts at some point. It's never really true validation, where you sit there, listen, empathize, and validate. As soon as I start to put out my thoughts on the matter is where things seem to go south. Open to thoughts here.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
WAS has her version of reality which is just as right and true and reasonable as you do. And feelings are feelings. They can't be wrong. While you may feel differently than she does, that doesn't mean her feelings aren't real and that her views aren't legitimate.
When I read your responses I can see why she might feel defeated. You aren't hearing anything she is saying. You are minimizing, diminishing, dismissing, disagreeing, or at best placating. You say you want to do things jointly, as long as it fits the relationship repair program you seem to have etched in your mind and meets your timelines as well.
I'd recommend you read the validation cheat sheet a few times a day for a while and to reread some of your posts and conversation highlights.
What if...what if...what if? What if her feelings were legitimate, and because of how you've acted in the past she has suffered and has very valid reasons for being protective of herself and mistrustful of you? Wouldn't this be good information to know if you want to save your marriage?
I do believe her feelings are legitimate based on our past history. I know I've not heard her in the past and looking back there are points where we could have been more collaborative on things. Your point about "minimizing, diminishing, dismissing, disagreeing, or at best placating" hits home bc I'm not trying to do that, but can see how it's construed or can come across to her as such. That's started from a place of having boundaries, one of which is that I'm not willing to be spoken to horribly. In the past i'd asked her to not speak to me like that and then extricated myself from the conversation. Maybe now I'm finding myself more willing to stick it out and push back, which you're right, is probably counterproductive. A delicate balance and hard to find the right time to take either tact.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
What are your beliefs about divorce? Is it ok to divorce because your spouse doesn't want to work on their marriage the way you feel you should work on it, when you want them to? You throw out timelines and conditions, how do you excuse your own neglect for the last 10 years and now demand her instant prioritization of your needs? Is it because she was wrong to feel that way for 10 years, but you're right to feel the way you feel now?
I push because I find myself deciding i'm not willing to grind out an existence like this for the next 9 years. I've no excuse for my faults over the past 10 years. If i could take my frame of mind now and impart it on myself back then I'd do it in a heartbeat. I feel like i'm in a place now where I would have been able to properly grow my M with my W 10 years ago. Getting there now that we're in this hole I've dug, though, seems to require a level of self realization and compassion i've yet to attain. It's almost like reading a book to learn how to disarm a nuclear bomb, as you stare at one w/ a countdown sitting at 100 seconds. I'm unsure how exactly to get up to speed quick enough to help the ship right itself. Does that make sense?
Originally Posted By: Zues126
In the end no one is going to be 'happy' if happy means getting everything they want. The question is whether we want to be unhappy and separate and blame our spouse and raise children in a broken home setting a poor example that will hurt their future relationships, or do we want to be unhappy and accept that it's because the world is difficult and we don't always get what we want but honor the commitments we made and live for things beyond our current mood so we can be unhappy inside of an intact family with good kids and a dependable partner and maybe somedays when you least expect it realize that love means acting loving when you don't feel like it and you are surprised to feel fulfilled in a way more meaningful than just getting what you thought you wanted at the moment?
Very good point. I don't take the divorce question lightly. I'm not looking for an easy out, or to escape with no blame. I'll always accept the blame for allowing my M to get where it currently sits. It makes me sad to think about how easy it would have been to fix this years ago had i had the tools. I don't need everything in the world to be happy in my M. I want my D to be successful and well balanced in life and have an intact family unit. I just realize that i also have needs. One of which is a partner who would be there for me. I know that's asking alot, as i've not been the best at being there for my W the past 10 yrs, but I don't see in our current state how we live in anything but "this" without some challenge and change...
Originally Posted By: Zues126
lt, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could benefit from some humility here. DR calls it the beginner's mind. The idea that you may be missing something, there is something going on you might not be able to see if you think you can see it all. I hear you shouting your own narrative of how you see things and what's happening, and it's drowning out what she's telling you.
This. I agree. I'm constantly worried that my bias is being imparted in the telling of this stuff. Perhaps i'm too in my own head. I'll reread this section of DR as well. I do not want to drown anything out, but I feel like i'm trying my hardest to hear for that small thing, but can't find it in any of the noise.
Originally Posted By: Zues126
I get it, it's hard and scary because if you listen to what she's telling you it might not be what you want to hear, and maybe that means you have to accept things you don't want to accept, like the loss of a marriage, or the fact you won't get everything you want in your life, or that you might not always be happy. But there's also a chance that begins a true dialogue the likes of which WAS has been craving for years, and that there is a way for things to work out to a point that, while not able to meet all of your demands, might be wholesome and fulfilling in ways you can't even appreciate right now.
I'd take anything from her right now with regards to positive/neutral communication. I can't seem to get out of the spew aspect of this. If the message is that our M won't work, then we can discuss how to work through that. If the message is that it takes x-y-z to make it work, then we can work through that too. I'm just at wits end that I'm unable to discern a coherent message either way. Maybe i'm too deep in this thing to see it though. Thank you Zues for all of the honest/open thoughts and feedback. They are very much appreciated!
Originally Posted By: ForGump
I do appreciate the different angle offered by Jelly & Zeus. As DB coaches like to say, YOU are the one on the "front lines" so only you know how best various advices offered apply to your situation.
I do hope it is the case that Jelly & Zeus's take on the situation is right. Maybe if you (LT) spent a couple of weeks totally focusing on: a) really listening to your W; b) try not to fix a single thing, don't be a fixer; c) respect her every wish.
Maybe it's worth trying to see if that changes her anger & contempt for you? Or maybe you've already tried this....
FG, yeah, i completely see what you're getting at. I know that b and c lead to nowhere with her. a is something i definitely need to work on.
The discussion has been good to get my brain thinking from a different angle though. It's possible that me taking a step back and looking at it from a different lens is in order. I don't think I can drop the piece around pushing back against her anxiety as that doesn't seem healthy. But I need to make sure that I'm able to validate and empathize in those rare moments she gives me. Some skills that have perhaps dropped off somewhat in the past few months.
JellyB, please don't feel like you need to exit. Happy to have your thoughts here as well. Regardless, i appreciate you having taken the time to opine!
To all of you, know that you are extremely appreciated. We're all in the midst of some difficult things and I cannot express how thankful i am that you've chosen to help me in mine.
Me39 M11 : T13 D9 BD 5/31/16 In House S until 6/21/17 Divorced 10/5/18
a) really listening to your W; YES. Validation is critical. b) try not to fix a single thing, don't be a fixer; Hmm...I don't think you should fix anything with WAS. Trying to change her is controlling and remaining attached to her behavior.
I do recommend trying to change yourself and your behavior. But you do have to detach and let go of any expectations about what it will 'get you' in terms of how she'll respond.
c) respect her every wish. NO. Validation isn't about agreeing and going along with anything she says. It is about hearing her. There will be plenty of times when you can't go along with her, just make sure it is because of your beliefs about what's best for the family, not in an effort to control her somehow.
Short and simple, keep focused on you. Where you strayed from the path of a strong supportive husband. Where you can improve. How you can best lead your family forward.
For me I think that would look like improved validation skills, a detachment from what you think her issues are, and a decrease of expectations as to what you want from her right now. I think these things are imperative to the survival of your marriage. And VALIDATE, DETACH, NO EXPECTATIONS is hardly a new concept. I'm just talking about how this looks in his situation based on what I've read so far.
Plenty of need for all of our support. Oh, and LT, if it makes you feel better, sometimes the smartest people have the hardest time being open minded because you have so many good ideas and are used to being right. So the fact I think you needed a beginners mind probably means you're very intelligent and used to excelling at what you do. All good things. Sometimes that can get in the way though, and you have to be smart enough to know when
Later gang.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I have some of the same communication problems that you have. I am a newbie, but here are some of the improvements that I have made for myself which have helped my R with my W:
1. Stop text messaging unless it is purely about logistics or about kids or to communicate need to know concrete details. That means no open ended questions like how is your day or how are you feeling. Try to go a whole day without any text messages and then another...
2. When you are listening, make eye contact and just listen without interruption or distraction. If there is a natural pause in the conversation, you can validate what you heard...or you can ask questions to show that not only are you listening, but that you are interested to know more about what she thinks and feels...someone here said remember TED and that has been helpful to me: (a) tell me more about... (b) explain to me what you mean by... and (c) describe what XXX is...
3. Instead of giving answers, even when asked for answers, do a 180 and change from the guy with ALL the answers to the guy with NO answers...this takes humility...learn how to say...I don't know...I'm not sure...I need more time to think about that...can I get back to you on that tomorrow...that is way outside of my expertise...
Above all, be genuine, if you come across as fake it will backfire...
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
