I've never posted over in this forum, but I'm kinda thinking maybe this is where my thread(s) should really be.
For those who don't know, here's the basics. Married almost 15 years with 2 smallish children. My ex and I separated in early 2015 for a variety of reasons. Came to find out about AP later in the year. D finalized in late 2015. I started dating right around when the D was finalized. My ex married AP shortly after the divorce. I'm now with a new partner and have been together almost a year and a half and have lived together for about a year. Custody of the two kids is split 50/50.
On to the point of this posting.
I know that I still carry a lot of guilt about the way I acted in my marriage. I believe that we had many issues on both sides of the street. Some from each individual and some as us as a pair. I know in my heart that our marriage should not have ended in divorce. With enough education on methods for improving communication, understanding what we each needed out of our lives, and paying better attention to each other's LLs, we could have made an awesome team.
That said, I am NOT upset with where life has taken me. I'm incredibly grateful for the new friends I've made through GAL, for the things I've learned about relationships, and for the way my new R has progressed. I know that my overall happiness level is higher than at any point in my M.
And yet, I know that I still harbor guilt and remorse about how everything played out. I hate "being divorced", I hate the message my kids have received, and I especially hate all of the milestones I miss out on by only having 50% time. The path is what it is and I'm making the best of it as I can. I'm just not sure how to let go of the guilt and the what-ifs. I keep thinking that the demons of the divorce will lessen over time, but I still remember all of the lowlights with such clarity. Anyone have any good thoughts or ideas?
none of us are perfect, and we all learn along the way. Hindight vision is 20/20, we also know that.
You are harboring guilt and remorse about something that you cannot change. The best you can do is realize that you are happy now and your exW has found her happy. Yes, it hurts to have to split time with the kids. You may have feelings of guilt and remorse, but you can't carry that for her not being willing to do what it takes to heal the marriage. It's not yours ot own at all.
So what "what-if" are you holding onto? Is it a what-if you had control over? or is it a what-if that would have come about something your wife only had control over?
I lived with a lot of what-if's too. I knew my ex was a bastard. (pardon my language, but he is). I knew it when I married him, but I was in such a crappy place in my life, anything that appeared to be love I was holding on to. Then I willingly had a child with said bastard. She is the best thing in the world to ever happen to me, but I harbor a lot of guilt knowing I chose this man as my daughter's father.
But there I can't go back in time. So I just march on and learn for the future. You seem to be doing the same. You will let go of it in time, I am pretty sure of that.
For a little proletariat boy, I've led a charmed life. Until my separation and divorce, I never really had to deal with any true hardships or difficulties. My marital woes taught me that, even in the worst of circumstances, I can choose to be happy and move forward with the confidence that I won't fall apart the minute that things don't go as I'd planned or expected. And, sometimes not getting what I want is for the better.
My marital woes taught me that, even in the worst of circumstances, I can choose to be happy and move forward with the confidence that I won't fall apart the minute that things don't go as I'd planned or expected. And, sometimes not getting what I want is for the better.
^This
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
As usual, those who posted before me said it best, but I agree with Ginger about what-ifs...I think we all live with those. Like you, I HATED the word "divorced" when I first got one. It took me awhile to actually be able to say it out loud. But we all learn how to deal with it in our own time and in our own way. Welcome to this neck of the woods and best of luck.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
So what "what-if" are you holding onto? Is it a what-if you had control over? or is it a what-if that would have come about something your wife only had control over?
No. Nothing at all that I have control over. Stuff from multiple years past.
What if I hadnt said this or done that? What if I had done this other thing instead? Nothing really specific. Just a lot of the bad decisions I made and wishing I would have made better choices.
The kicker is that I know it wouldnt make a lick of difference, even if I did change some of those choices. I was building a house with the wrong tools. Getting lucky and putting a dozen nails in place correctly isnt going to let the house stand permanently anyway. The house needed to fall down so that I could learn what I needed in order to build it correctly.
It's more that I remember those moments in time and the choices I made and re-feel that pain. The memories are still so vivid and the wound still feels so fresh sometimes.
I think Im ultimately just venting. I dont want my ex back. I dont want to change where my life is. I mostly just need to figure out how to train my brain to stay focused on the positives.
My marital woes taught me that, even in the worst of circumstances, I can choose to be happy and move forward with the confidence that I won't fall apart the minute that things don't go as I'd planned or expected. And, sometimes not getting what I want is for the better.
^This
I know now that Im a lot more resilient than I ever would have given myself credit for.
That said, I hate the way I acted in the 1-2 months pre and post BD. I will never be THAT person again. Whiny, clingy, needy, obsessive. It was a total clown-show. If my ex wasnt walking out the door anyway, my behavior would have been the final straw anyway.
It's those times I think back and wish I had more courage, more strength, and more self-respect. That is certainly not me; I will never be that person again.
I know now that Im a lot more resilient than I ever would have given myself credit for.
That said, I hate the way I acted in the 1-2 months pre and post BD. I will never be THAT person again. Whiny, clingy, needy, obsessive. It was a total clown-show. If my ex wasnt walking out the door anyway, my behavior would have been the final straw anyway.
Funny how time has a way of clarifying things. But, at the time we were only doing what we knew how to do it and to the best of our abilities. Let's face it, we all either are - or did - hanging on as tight as we can in the hopes that person would change their mind, so we did the only thing we knew to do. No fault or shame in that. We were desperately trying to hold on to our marriages.
I know for sure I wish I had more courage, strength, etc... The good thing is that it gave/gives us the opportunity to make the fixes within ourselves.
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
That is certainly not me; I will never be that person again.
Kaizen,
I feel the same way. I can't return to doormat doodler.
I saw an interview with Paul Newman a few years before his death. The interviewer showed him a picture of himself when he was in his mid-thirties. Paul Newman said, "I don't even know that man; I don't know who he is." I understood that Paul Newman was saying that he's changed over the years, but now I really understand what Paul Newman was saying.
I feel the same way. I can't return to doormat doodler.
I can't be the doormat Jeep, either. Interesting thing was, when the doormat Jeep left, the ex was taken aback...then she claimed this "newfound strength" was an attack against her. Sigh. FML haha
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
I spend way too much time dwelling on the what ifs. Guess I'm not the only one. And thoughts of this should not be ending this way. And guilt, a lot of guilt.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Ive been dating my new partner for almost a year and a half and we've been living together for almost a year. My kids are calling her a 'stepmom' to their friends, even though they know that to be a 'stepmom' your parent actually has to be married to them - Im guessing that they just dont know what other label to use. Weve talked extensively about relationships and their meaning and I know that we have a very strong foundation, common beliefs on most major issues and I believe the long term risk of infidelity is extremely low. We are both very transparent - she has no lock on her phone and I have one (for work) but she knows the password and has a fingerprint stored.
That said, how do you know when it's time to take the next step? I got burned in my first marriage pretty badly. Im not sure that being 'married' at this point would really change much day-to-day for me, her, or my children. Im really not sure what another day, week, month, year or decade would change. So how do you know? What sign(s) do you look for?
That said, how do you know when it's time to take the next step? I got burned in my first marriage pretty badly. Im not sure that being 'married' at this point would really change much day-to-day for me, her, or my children. Im really not sure what another day, week, month, year or decade would change. So how do you know? What sign(s) do you look for?
Very, very difficult questions. Signs? I know of none, really. Being burned really brings out the trust issues in us all...sometimes it sends us down the dark path, and others it makes us much more cautious.
However, the only one that can answer those questions is you. The first question is do you want to get married?
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
Honestly, I really don't have a desire to get married again, as in I don't NEED it. But if it was important to a partner and I know I want to share the rest of my life with them, then I would.
- no, it isnt particularly important to her. I dont think our relationship would really change much either way. - that said, it isnt really that important to me either to have the title of being married.
That said, there are two big reasons why I want think it would be beneficial: 1) My ex is re-married already and while the new spouse isnt incredibly involved with my kids, there are some various events that I feel awkward inviting my partner to that I cant really stop him from attending because of the title. For example, my kids parent teacher conferences - I cant block their stepdad but I feel weird inviting my partner because of that title thing. So I think to give some...legitimacy to the relationship with my kids, the title has some meaning. 2) While she is employed, she doesnt have health insurance through the employer. So, almost $5K a year is being thrown away on an extra health insurance plan that isnt really any good. My coverage wouldnt change with her added.
Neither of these are good reasons by themselves to get married. But maybe help in case of a...'tie'?
The biggest negative is the financial implications. Im still on the hook with my ex for SS and CS for some time. I cant really afford another set of payments or another division of wealth. I feel like Im just starting to get back on my feet after around 2 years of financial backsliding.
Shout out to my ex, you're really quite the man You made my heart break and that made me who I am Here's to my ex, hey, look at me now, well, I I'm all the way up, I swear you'll never bring me down
Heard this song the other day, and while some of the lyrics are pretty rough, I really appreciate this chorus.
So, thanks, ex, for giving me the motivation and the time to become who I always should have been.
So, every now and again, my partner notices me reading on this site on my phone. I dont tend to post much using my phone because it's a pain, but I do find it interesting to read.
Weve had several discussions now about what we want out of the future, and while I expect that we will get married, I am still somewhat more of the 'jaded' one. While I am hearing things like "Ill never cheat on you" or "I dont see why we wouldnt be together forever", in my head, I feel that those absolutes are not so meaningful. Having gone through it once before after hearing those kinds of words, it's difficult to believe it 100%. Do I think we'll be together in 20 years? Sure! But Ive lost that ability to love 'innocently'.
Circling back around, my partner is worried that reading and posting on here helps to reinforce that belief. That hearing all of the sad stories posted in the Newcomers section taints my opinions on love and relationship. That being here is somehow hurting my ability to be 100% "in" our relationship.
Ive given that some thought over the past several months as to why I still read and post. I find there are three main reasons that I think there is still value for me to be here: 1) I gained so much from the posters here over the years. I feel like I want to share that knowledge. Nothing makes me happier than seeing people Ive helped experience positive results in their relationship or their life.
2) I know that Im continuing to learn about myself and about relationships. Even though I dont really post much about my detailed goings-on, I still read and write and it helps to reinforce my beliefs.
3) It helps remind me of where Ive been and helps to make the changes that I made 'stick'.
Sometimes I wonder if it may be better to step away and stop investing myself in all of these "stories". I figure that when it's the right time for me to step away, Ill know.
Good morning DB-land. Some random thoughts Ive been having that I just want to get down on paper to give them life.
In case anybody doesnt know anything about me, I am divorced. Ive been separated/divorced a few years now. Im dating again and have been seeing an amazing lady for about 2 years. She lives with me and my kids when I have them.
I still have many moments where I ponder the end days of my marriage. The few months of time leading up to BD through to when we separated and the time after that. I wouldnt say Im living with the regrets anymore that I used to feel. The feelings of "what if I had done X or Y instead of P or Q? Would that have mattered?" Frankly, I dont care much about that anymore. I know where I made mistakes, I know why I made them, and Im working to not repeat them. Im excited for the path Im on and Im not stuck in a loop wishing I could go back.
The one feeling I AM struggling with now is that thought of self-value. Cognitively, I know that the reasons my ex didnt want to work together to repair the relationship were hers. They werent about me, or who I was. But it still hurts knowing that my best wasnt good enough. And that feeling clouds my future judgments. Will I be good enough next time? How can I prevent going through the pain again? Am I doomed to repeat the same loops? I know what I can and cant control. And to put the faith in someone else is the only way to have a good relationship. It's just a difficult process to let go of those fears.
I'm glad to read that you're not focusing on the what if scenarios any more. I went through the same thing. Eventually, I realized that even when I did everything that XH wanted me to do, it still wasn't enough. Like you, that hurts. But also like you, there isn't anything I could have done differently that would have changed the outcome. He had to go down his path and do things his way. I think it takes time to accept that and believe it to be true.
Will you be good enough next time? How can you prevent future pain? Are you doomed to repeat your mistakes?
You've learned all of those answers by going through this experience. Because of the pain, you will work harder to ensure that it doesn't happen again. By keeping the conversations going with your GF and checking in with her to have those deeper conversations from time to time, you two can stay on the same page and work through things together.
It is scary to put your faith into someone else. But it is also scary to not take that risk. One thing that helped me as I was getting married the second time was knowing that if it all happened again, I will be OK. Of course, I don't think it will come to that or I wouldn't have gotten married, but I will be OK. I learned from my XH that marriage is work and it does not mean we will be together forever. While that is the goal, I can only control myself. I work hard on my marriage. I try to express my thoughts and feelings even when they aren't good. Communication really is the key.
Quote:
While I am hearing things like "Ill never cheat on you" or "I dont see why we wouldnt be together forever", in my head, I feel that those absolutes are not so meaningful. Having gone through it once before after hearing those kinds of words, it's difficult to believe it 100%. Do I think we'll be together in 20 years? Sure! But Ive lost that ability to love 'innocently'.
What if she said, "I will do my best to work things out with you in our relationship" or something to that effect? I think what changed with me is the knowledge that marriage is work. A good relationship is work. My partner can choose to leave me at any time, and I need to do my best to keep him happy and myself happy.
Also, don't judge your GF based on what your XW did.
Are you sure she doesn't care if you get married or not? I'm wondering why she would tell you she'll never cheat or that she sees you 2 together forever, if marriage isn't something that she would like.
Something else to consider - your kids. Remember that you are their role model. I wonder what they will think if they see you continue to live with your GF without getting married. How may it affect them in the long run? Have you talked with them about the idea of you and your GF getting married?
Eventually, I realized that even when I did everything that XH wanted me to do, it still wasn't enough.
Agreed. Even now, it seems every contact we have it is because I did something that is perceived as 'wrong'. I know that I make mistakes still, but I also know that I am doing a heckuva lot of things correctly and those are not addressed.
Originally Posted By: dream
He had to go down his path and do things his way. I think it takes time to accept that and believe it to be true.
It's so difficult, because I want to understand things that I know I never will. I want to apply logic and reason to a situation which defies it. Ive come to just accept that there are questions whose answers I'll never know. And even if I were to get those answers, they probably wouldnt be enough to actually achieve some level of understanding.
Originally Posted By: dream
You've learned all of those answers by going through this experience. Because of the pain, you will work harder to ensure that it doesn't happen again. By keeping the conversations going with your GF and checking in with her to have those deeper conversations from time to time, you two can stay on the same page and work through things together.
Thats the plan!
Originally Posted By: dream
One thing that helped me as I was getting married the second time was knowing that if it all happened again, I will be OK.
Thats an outstanding point. I dont know that it would be easier...but it's certainly something I can handle and I know I have the tools to deal with it if it comes to that.
Originally Posted By: dream
I learned from my XH that marriage is work and it does not mean we will be together forever. While that is the goal, I can only control myself. I work hard on my marriage. I try to express my thoughts and feelings even when they aren't good. Communication really is the key.
It is absolutely work. Luckily, as I was going through the divorce, I learned a lot about who I was and how my choices affected my partner. And I worked hard to change the fundamental way that I looked at lots of things.
Originally Posted By: dream
What if she said, "I will do my best to work things out with you in our relationship" or something to that effect?
She has certainly said things similar to this many times as well. I know that any hangups that I have are based on XW and not on anything that I believe to be true about GF.
Originally Posted By: dream
Also, don't judge your GF based on what your XW did.
Easier said than done
Originally Posted By: dream
Are you sure she doesn't care if you get married or not? I'm wondering why she would tell you she'll never cheat or that she sees you 2 together forever, if marriage isn't something that she would like.
Her mind has absolutely changed. When we first met, that was her stance, but now, she has made it quite clear that she expects to at least be engaged in the fairly near future. Im not sure that Im ready, but Im also not sure exactly what Im waiting for!
Originally Posted By: dream
Something else to consider - your kids. Remember that you are their role model. I wonder what they will think if they see you continue to live with your GF without getting married. How may it affect them in the long run? Have you talked with them about the idea of you and your GF getting married?
This is a very good point that I hadnt really considered. I have talked with them a little, and Im sure that they would be onboard. They sometimes already call her their stepmom. But I do need to consider how not being married might impact them.
First, let me preface this by saying I think it's too early to think about marriage. You jumped in way too fast ( I would argue you shouldn't even introduce your kids to a date until six months in, and moving in with her after only 6 months was risky. And although you seem to be doing well in the relationship, a year and a half is still kinda early to be making that commitment again. It takes at least a couple years to really get to know someone.
Also there's the fact that you still have some nostalgia for your ex.
But separate from all that - if your main concern about marrying is financial - get a good prenup! I think anyone in a second marriage should consider a prenup, since your finances are more complicated than a young. People starting out with no assets. (But also, if GF is receiving spousal support, realize that may end if she marries you.
Last edited by job; 10/24/1701:17 AM. Reason: edited a word for kml
kml - Thanks for posting. I think there is a lot of good thought-provoking stuff in your post.
Originally Posted By: kml
First, let me preface this by saying I think it's too early to think about marriage.
I just want to make sure that you are reading the date-stamps on some of the posts correctly. At this point, we have been together for 2 years. I dont see it as unreasonable to be thinking about marriage at that point. How long is your expectation of dating someone before getting engaged?
Originally Posted By: kml
You jumped in way too fast ( I would argue you shouldn't even introduce your kids to a date until six months in, and moving in with her after only 6 months was risky.
You are right, and looking back, I agree that I jumped in too fast. But, Im not sure what this information does for me NOW. While Im not sure I did things exactly the right way, I do believe that what we have is lasting and has a good foundation for a successful relationship going forward.You are also right that everything was a little risky, but I believe things have so far worked out for the best.
Originally Posted By: kml
And although you seem to be doing well in the relationship, a year and a half is still kinda early to be making that commitment again. It takes at least a couple years to really get to know someone.
For sure. So lets say I would be engaged at 2.5 years of dating and then married after 3.5 or 4. That seems like a pretty long timeline nowadays. Even now, I struggle with understanding what I am waiting FOR - is it just for time to pass so that nothing bad turns up?
Originally Posted By: kml
Also there's the fact that you still have some nostalgia for your ex.
In reading back, Id say that there was some many months ago. As I wrote to dream, the nagging questions and timelines still roll around in my head sometimes, but I have come to accept that I will likely never know exactly what happened...and even if I did, I likely wouldnt be satisfied with the answer.
At this point, I can very safely say that I am not interested in getting back together with my ex. I do not miss the person that she is now or the relationship that we had. The relationship I had was 15 years long, but I really only think back about that final whirlwind of a 2 months to try to parse it all out and make some sense of it.
Originally Posted By: kml
But separate from all that - if your main concern about marrying is financial - get a good prenup! I think anyone in a second marriage should consider a prenup, since your finances are more complicated than a young. Purple starting out with no assets. (But also, if GF is receiving spousal support, realize that may end if she marries you.
The financial aspect is fair. I will have to look into that in more detail when the time comes. And no, she is never married, so no SS to worry about.
I don't think it's too early for Kaizen to be thinking about marriage. For me, the whole point of dating someone and being in a relationship is to get married! But that's me, not everyone views relationships that way.
My husband and I were engaged after 2 years of dating. We got married the following year. We didn't have a pre-nup as neither of us had any worthy assets.
So lets say I would be engaged at 2.5 years of dating and then married after 3.5 or 4. That seems like a pretty long timeline nowadays. Even now, I struggle with understanding what I am waiting FOR - is it just for time to pass so that nothing bad turns up?
Exactly. It takes time for the rose colored glasses of infatuation to come off and for people to show their true colors. That kinda IS what you're waiting for. I think your timeline above sounds reasonable.
A prenup can be written in such a way that it's fair to both of you. Just don't be an a-hole who lets your wife take care of the kids and home to the detriment of her career and then don't want to pay any support. If you both work and share home chores and have similar incomes then there should be no need for alimony.
Exactly. It takes time for the rose colored glasses of infatuation to come off and for people to show their true colors. That kinda IS what you're waiting for. I think your timeline above sounds reasonable.
Im right at about 2 years dating. And also, weve now been living together around a year and a half. In my opinion, this seems like a reasonable amount of time to date before getting engaged. I imagine that your post suggesting it was too early was about a time stamped post from 6-12 months ago?
Originally Posted By: kml
A prenup can be written in such a way that it's fair to both of you. Just don't be an a-hole who lets your wife take care of the kids and home to the detriment of her career and then don't want to pay any support. If you both work and share home chores and have similar incomes then there should be no need for alimony.
I will definitely need to at least get some legal consult before entering a marriage agreement again. Alimony is far less of an issue to me than just division of pre-marital assets. Not that I think anything will happen, but I want to make sure I am protected somewhat.
Watched "The Last Five Years" last night. A musical of young love found and then lost. It opened with this song that I found to be touching and reminded me strongly of where Ive been.
Still Hurting Jamie is over and Jamie is gone Jamie's decided it's time to move on Jamie has new dreams he's building upon And I'm still hurting
Jamie arrived at the end of the line Jamie's convinced that the problems are mine Jamie is probably feeling just fine And I'm still hurting
What about lies, Jamie? What about things That you swore to be true What about you, Jamie What about you
Jamie is sure something wonderful died Jamie decides it's his right to decide Jamie's got secrets he doesn't confide And I'm still hurting
Go and hide and run away Run away, run and find something better Go and ride the sun away Run away like it's simple Like it's right...
Give me a day, Jamie Bring back the lies Hang them back on the wall Maybe I'd see How you could be So certain that we Had no chance at all
Jamie is over and where can I turn? Covered with scars I did nothing to earn Maybe there's somewhere a lesson to learn But that wouldn't change the fact That wouldn't speed the time Once the foundation's cracked And I'm Still hurting
I’m not sure how many people still here remember me. I’ve gone by several names over the course of the years I was posting, but the most recent included Kaizen, Darknes and MoveFrwd. It’s been a long time since I e posted and I wanted to give an update and then ask some opinions on something that is bothering me.
<Update> My XW and I separated in 4/2015. We have two daughters together who were 6 and 3 and who are now 10 and 7. I was heartbroken but she was dead set on moving forward with D and it was finalized by 11/2015. We pretty much agreed on custody and financials and there wasn’t really anything to get in the way. Around that time I met a new woman and we started dating around the same time the D became final. XW had meanwhile moved in with OP and they were married in 2016. Meanwhile, my new relationship continued to progress incredibly and we were actually married in January of 2019 after three years of dating. Everything is going wonderfully between us. My daughters adore her and I could not be happier.
<Question> Let me preface this by saying that the relationship between my XW and me is not good. In all of the communication that we have, I do my beat to remain open and collaborative but it is very clear that she has no interest in that sort of dialogue. When there are issues with the girls at school or at home, she is quick to point the point the finger at me and is not interested in working together to resolve anything. I know that it reads like I’m perfect and I’m certainly not, but the key is that I would be happy to remain on friendly terms with her (even if we aren’t friends) and she has shown that that is not a priority for her.
I also want to say that I am very careful to not talk poorly about her to either of my daughters. I believe that it is important for them to have their own relationships with her and it isn’t my place to try to influence that with my own biases.
I would also add that I think that my daughters have “more” when they are at my house rather than their moms. I’m paying her CS still, but her new H has multiple kids as well and their parenting time coincides. So there is more quality time, more space and probably more disposable income when the kids are with me. Now...we also put a heavy priority on quality time with the kids when we have them, so while some discrepancy may be from resource availability, we are definitely applying those resources at what feels like a much higher rate.
So I am at a loss of how to handle this situation. I don’t have a lot of divorced friends and those I do don’t have kids. So I’m hopeful to call upon the collective wisdom here!
My oldest daughter has started complaining regularly to ya about how her mom treats her when she is at the other house. This started a couple weeks ago at school when she started crying to herself because she was thinking about how her mom treats her. When I picked her up, she seemed ‘off’ so we talked with her and it turned into a several hour discussion about all the ways that she feels wronged. There are many examples, but I think the crux of it boils down to her feeling unloved while she is there. My youngest can be a handful, and my oldest feels like the expectation from XW is for her to “manage” her. If anything happens, my oldest gets yelled at or gets “in trouble”. At the same time, she does not feel like she gets any special time or other treatment to counterbalance the stress of that expectation. I believe that she feels like a burden to her mom while she is there.
The other problem is that my XW is a very large personality and can be quite intimidating. My oldest is very fearful of getting in trouble and does not like confrontation in the slightest. We have talked to her about talking to her mom on several occasions but she is not willing to make that step. We’ve offered to have her jot notes to herself or even write a letter to her mom, but even that is too much for her.
My main concern here is the happiness of my daughter. I am not worried about her safety. She is being fed and cared for. There is no immediate physical danger to her. But I am worried about the emotional well being and the future relationship she will have with her mom. The way I see it, there are three options, but none of them are good.
1) keep supporting my daughter and encouraging her to reach out to her mother. We’ve said that XW can’t change until she understands the problem. We are trying to give her all of the tools she needs to be able to have a discussion successfully.
2) I could contact XW directly. My daughter has explicitly asked me not to for fear of getting in trouble. I want to respect her wishes. I also am worried about this route based on past experience. I believe that if this message comes from me or my wife, that it will be ignored or misheard. I do not expect it to have much impact if the words are mine.
3) XWs mom and I still have a very decent and cordial reaction. When we see each other at various events, we can hold a conversation without any tension or stress. In fact, my parents and XWs parents has a get together in 2018. We have floated the idea of a meetup between my daughter and XWs mom so that someone “on that side” can have some awareness and my daughter seems to think that might be ok. But at the same, Ive been here long enough to know that it’s likely XW won’t listen to her either. I’m not so sure the relationship between XW and her mom - they used to be close, but I think her mom still grieves the end of our relationship to some degree.
So.....I’m looking for thoughts. A sounding board. Any other suggestions. It is painful to see my daughter upset and I know there’s not anything that I can do to “fix” the relationship that she has with her mother.
Well, I'm not divorced and don't have a co-parenting spouse, but I think there is another option you should consider:
4) have daughter see a therapist and discuss her concerns with the therapist, who can then speak to you and ex-W or just ex-W about it.
You are really in a no-win situation here. Your daughter's concerns do need to be addressed, and there are likely other issues that will arise making this something of a necessity as the kids enter the tween and teen years.
If you continue to have problems, involving the therapist may be a useful tool in advocating for some adjustments to the custody schedule.
That’s a good point about therapy that I will address.
My daughter did see a therapist a few times a few years ago. During the separation, she had a bit of a hard time getting used to switching between houses so we thought it would be good for my D to have some o one neutral and safe to talk to. I asked my D if she was interested in talking with someone again about this and she isn’t. I also feel like if we were to go this route, that I would inform my XW of it which kind of takes to a modified option 1.
I feel like so far, through us, my daughter is feeling heard and understood and we are doing our best to offer positive and impartial solutions for her. So a therapist would be a good option for an outside opinion for sure, but I don’t think it’s needed so that my D doesn’t feel isolated.
I will also add this, though I’m not sure how relevant it is. My W is a child therapist, though she primarily works with kids that have suffered far more trauma than only a divorce. She has said (and I’m probably butchering this badly) that if we continue to provide a stable and loving home for my D, that she should’ve ina. Good place going forward regardless of the relationship she has with XW. In my opinion, if there were something going on that put my D in physical or emotional jeopardy, we would be taking swifter and more decisive action.
Let me preface this by saying that the relationship between my XW and me is not good. In all of the communication that we have, I do my beat to remain open and collaborative but it is very clear that she has no interest in that sort of dialogue.
I'm in the same boat as you. I would've thought that with the passage of time and exW being in a new R that she would see things differently. But she doesn't. Still is carrying a lot of anger and resentment and she hasn't taken the time to reflect internally how she contributed to things and take some ownership.
I so wanted to create a space for productive co-parenting, but it's not there. She has no interest in that. So, instead of beating against a brick wall, I decided to go ahead with parallel parenting. Look it up if you haven't yet. It's given me so much peace of mind. I took the mentality that I am a single parent in all sense of the term and have zero reliance on exW. It doesn't mean that maybe in the future we can have a more productive relationship about the kids, but for now I am firmly on my side of the lane. Honestly, I reframed it as a gift. I get the gift of complete autonomy with the kids and decision making when they're with me. It has really been a liberating feeling.
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I know that I still carry a lot of guilt about the way I acted in my marriage. I believe that we had many issues on both sides of the street. Some from each individual and some as us as a pair. I know in my heart that our marriage should not have ended in divorce. With enough education on methods for improving communication, understanding what we each needed out of our lives, and paying better attention to each other's LLs, we could have made an awesome team.
I totally get what you're saying here too. I think we would've made a good team too if we had worked on things. Even if separation hadn't happened, there were a lotta things we were not on the same page about.
About the guilt, what has gotten me through all of that is remembering that I did the best I could at that time with who I was as a person and all the tools that I had at my disposal. You have to be compassionate to your past self because we know that we could've all done better in hindsight. It doesn't mean that I can't be objectively critical about who I was and understand my faults; it's that I don't place judgment on my past self. I used and continue to use any remaining guilt to be a better person and remember that I have much more to learn and give. It takes time and you have to keep reminding yourself that.
In the same token, where your exW is at right now, she's doing the best she can with what she has. Maybe she'll change or things will be different, but when you go with zero expectations about that, there is no room for disappointment and you are radically accepting reality, rather than wishing something else. I am working daily to have an intimate relationship with what the reality is, not what I want things to be. It also brings me peace of mind.
It's still okay to grieve and go through the emotions. I am still grieving not having a great co-parenting relationship because I know it would be so much better for the kids. But I am, and you are, doing the best we can with what reality truly is. Come to a place of acceptance.
I am a big fan of Peter Crone (check out some podcasts where he's been a guest - he's been on Aubrey Marcus podcast, Kyle Kingsbury podcast, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee's podcast, and more). one of the things, out of many things he's said, that hit home for me goes something like this:
"When you're out in the world and you feel triggered emotionally, it is a great indication of where you are still not free. Find those areas where you're not free yet and just sit with it. Ask yourself - can I just sit with this and be fully in acceptance?"
Any time I feel triggered by what exW does or even in other things in my life, I take a moment to remind myself that I am not free in this area yet and what can I do to make it better.
I'll give you a very silly example of what I recently did. Whenever exW would message me, I would see her notification and it would get me anxious and stressed. Like some other ball was going to get dropped and I had somehow done something to piss her off. I realized that it was seeing her actual name on the top of the message that triggered me. So, I changed her name in the contacts to something funny and harmless. I changed it to 'hilarious baby panda'. So now I get texts from time to time from the hilarious baby panda, and it cracks me up every time I see the notification. This has helped me to be free of anxiety and stress whenever I communicate with her now. A hilarious baby panda can't hurt me lol.
Anyways, I am going off on a rant again. Just wanted to share and say I feel you and take some baby proactive steps to be with yourself and see where you can make small changes to move through the guilt and shame.
