Apologies in advance for the short novel that will follow, and for any other errors in protocol. I'll try to be reasonably brief, but those of you who stick through to the end will hopefully understand why that's easier said than done.
The super short version is that my (mid 40s) wife (also mid 40s) of 20 years is obsessed with another guy whom she barely knows and who in no way has reciprocated her feelings. In fact, I'm not sure he's aware of her feelings. Despite this, she's convinced that she's somehow destined to be with him and marry him some day … while at the same time going back and forth on whether she's committed to our marriage and insisting she has no desire to break up the other guy's family (what?).
Exacerbating matters are some mental health issues that may be the root cause of much of this, and obviously – along with our two children – complicate my decision to continue fighting for the marriage or call it quits.
OK, that's the short version. Here's the full version.
Wife and I are married 20 years, with two kids (13 and 9). The first 15 years were great, with very few conflicts, good jobs, financially stable, healthy sex life, etc.
The first sign of trouble was about five years ago, when she accused me out of the blue of having an affair with our nanny. This was not true. Not only was I not having an affair with our nanny or anyone else, but I still can think of no reason for her to have suspected it. No unusual phone calls, texts, emails, nights out, changes in behavior, etc. The best she could offer was “gut feeling.” Around this time there were a lot of red flags that I should have paid closer attention to … she was hearing things that weren't there, had bizarre interpretations of routine events, etc. This is relevant later.
Also, truth to be told, I didn't take her concerns as seriously as I should have. They were not remotely based in reality, so I treated them as such, but looking back I should have done more to ease her fears. All that said, after about 6 months she told me that she no longer believed I'd had an affair and things went back to normal … so I thought.
Fast forward to about two years ago when, after I noticed things didn't seem quite right, she admitted she had a crush on a co-worker ... but it was just a crush, she hadn't acted on it and this other guy wasn't aware of it. I wasn't happy, of course, but I understand that crushes happen and as long as that's all it was, I figured it would fade away like any other crush. Wrong again.
About 9 months after this initial revelation, she volunteers that her crush wasn't a co-worker after all, but a guy we know through volunteering at our kids' school. Also, she's “in love” with this person and thought he felt the same way for her. She said nothing physical ever occurred between them, and based on a lot of digging around and subsequent information, I'm 99 percent sure that's true. As best as I can tell, she's barely even spoken to this guy over the years other than a quick chat in passing, and only seen him at school events a handful of times a year. She admits she knows virtually nothing about him – like, didn't know what he did for a living, didn't know any of his interests, etc. There's no indication they've ever been together alone, no unusual phone calls, emails, texts, etc. She says she called him one time, and he said “Who is this? Why are you calling me?” and she hung up. She says she texted him twice, and he replied neither time.
I'm sure many of you are reasonably thinking there's got to be more, but again, after much digging, I've found nothing to contradict any of this. Could there be more? Of course. But there's zero indication of that, and I've looked a lot.
So, after a short stint of counseling, things haven't gotten better. She still believes she may be destined to marry this guy – though, again, insists she doesn't intend to break up any families – and that he's somehow her soulmate, etc. Our marriage counselor suggested she was experiencing limerence, and if you look up the symptoms, she pretty much checks off all the boxes.
Our latest R talk this week ended with her saying she still hopes to have a future with this guy (won't his family be thrilled?) and deciding that divorce might be best for us. She says she doesn't think she can love me the way I want or deserve, so ending it would be best for both of us. She may be right. We're still living together, had until recently been regularly intimate and, to the outside world, are a normal couple.
Here's where everything gets even more complicated. On top of all this – and perhaps the root cause of all this – are what seem to be some mental health issues. To put it simply, my wife is delusionally convinced that virtually everyone she knows is obsessed with her obsession over this guy. She believes people from our kids' school follow her to see if she's meeting with this guy. She believes our kids' sports leagues set up their game and practice schedules so they know where she'll be at certain times. She believes people stop by our house to check up on her. She believes I've asked people to spy on her. She believes school functions are scheduled to keep track of her and this guy. She believes people have hacked her email and moved things around in various folders to either send her clues or just mess with her mind. She believes I somehow track this guy's movements. There's more, but you probably get the gist. Because of this, I have a strong suspicion that her extreme infatuation with a virtual stranger and accusations against me stem from some of the same disordered thinking.
Thankfully, she is seeing a psychologist, has seen a psychiatrist, and is taking meds as recommended. There's at least a glimmer of recognition on her part that her beliefs aren't quite right. Unfortunately, the delusional thinking remains dominant. Also, while I believe her counselor is helping with her thinking, I don't think the counselor is doing the marriage any favors.
So, that's where I am. She's thinking divorce, and continues to be obsessed with another man and thinks she'll somehow, someway end up with him. Her anger and resentment toward me – for things I haven't done – along with her extreme crush keep her from committing to repair our marriage and have us on the brink of divorce.
This has been going on for about 2+ years now, and just ending it would seem the easy – perhaps sane – thing to do. Two years is a long time, and truth be told, I have little interest in continuing a relationship on these terms. This is wearing on me mentally, emotionally and physically. But I struggle with that when it seems apparent that at least some of this stems from mental illness. Also, there's the kids to consider, and that's a huge consideration for me. She is by and large a terrific mom and the kids wouldn't understand why I'm divorcing her (and I would not explain it to them the way I have to you). To be clear, divorce is not my first choice, but the status quo is not workable either. I have read much of the DB material, but I worry how applicable it is here. It seems DBing requires some level of rationality by both sides, and that's not present here.
Thanks much to any of you that have made it this far. I have lots of questions, but it's best to end now and read what others think. Any ideas,thoughts, guidance, etc., would be very much appreciated.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Has a doctor ruled out something like a brain tumor?
How long has she been on meds? Should she be improving by now, if the drugs www going to work, or is she still in the stage where the drugs are building to the correct dose?
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
I'm sorry that you are hear relaying this very sad story. If it is any comfort, you are not the only one who has been married 20 years to the perfect wife and mother who now wants a D so she can be with her soul mate even though she doesn't know if he feels the same way. I am as baffled as you are.
What makes your case different than mine is the level of mental illness involved. It's good that is recognized enough by her to seek treatment. Does she have a history of mental illness?. I have no expertise with mental illness so don't want to advise on that portion of your story. How is her physical health? Is she suffering any MLC symptoms?
What I can advise on is that you cannot control your W; you can only control you. So tell us more about you: how are you as a husband and father? None of us here are perfect.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I can't say for certain that a brain tumor has been ruled out, but as part of getting medication she's seen both her general physician and a psychiatrist, so I think it's not something they're concerned with.
She's been on two main medications. 1. An anti-depressant for about two years. The good news there is that it's smoothed out her emotions in that she's no longer struggling to focus on daily life. The bad news is that it's smoothed out her emotions to the point that she's detached from much of this. For example, she's told me at various times that she knows intellectually that she should feel bad about what this is doing to our long relationship, our kids, the life we've built, etc., but she just doesn't. She has little guilt/remorse, not because she's a bad person (she's not, really), but she just can't experience those feelings. 2. An antipsychotic she began with about 4-5 months ago when the delusional thinking got really bad. It's helped in the sense that she's not constantly focused on these thoughts, but it hasn't helped her gain much clarity on what's real or what's not. Essentially, she's at a point where she recognizes on an intellectual level that her beliefs don't make a lot of sense, or at least aren't grounded in any evidence, but at the end of the day, she isn't willing/ready to dismiss them. She says things like "this is what my intuition is telling me and it's never been wrong."
To answer your questions: 1. Her physical health is normal.
2. Yes, there seem to be some MLC elements here. In fact, her counselor previous to the one she has now suggested at the onset of this that her infatuation with the other guy was her MLC and would eventually fade away if she let it. If only.
3. I'm certainly nowhere in the neighborhood of perfect. That said, I consider myself a good husband and father. On the latter, I'm very involved with both my children (coaching, school activities, nights out, etc.) and have positive relationships with them. As for being a husband, as I said in my initial post, we had a typically strong marriage for 15 years. We rarely fought and when we did, it was generally resolved in a matter of days or less to both sides' satisfaction. I've never been guilty of any of the big dealbreakers (abuse, addiction, infidelity). We've both been well employed throughout, and while we're hardly wealthy and have few luxuries, we live a comfortable (upper?) middle-class existence. As I alluded to earlier, if there's been one true "screw the pooch" moment, it's when she accused me of infidelity and I didn't take her fears seriously. To be sure, her allegations were not only groundless, they were absurd, such as claiming I was having sex with my AP in the basement while she and kids slept upstairs. Or that she knew this woman was outside our home waiting for me because my wife could smell her perfume ... in December, with all the windows closed. For weeks I, in not so many words, told her she was nuts and refused to see a counselor. (We finally did, but it was very short-lived). It's obvious now she's never forgiven me for that. It's also obvious, it seems, that she never really believed the affair didn't happen, but tried unsuccessfully to let it go.
If you have any more specific questions, I'll do my best to answer. Thanks
I hear you say she is a good person, W and mother that you love but is suffering from mental illness. If so, then the question is whether or not her illness can be resolved medically or otherwise, and the good W will return? Again, I have no experience with mental illness so don't really have advice on that front. Some mental illness is temporary, some is chronic. Some is treatable, some is not. Some gets better over time, some gets worse. I have no idea of your situation. How does this affect the rest of her life and parenting? She is getting some help, but is it the best help you can get? Are you treating this with the same urgency you would if she was dying of a physical illness?
MLC is sometimes accompanied by mental illness, usually depression. Why else do you suspect MLC?
In terms of her prior accusation, I feel like there's more to the story. There was obviously a breakdown in trust to the extent that she would suspect an A, even if it was not true. The breakdown in trust can have external and internal factors. Did she feel emotionally disconnected or neglected by you? Was the nanny her opposite or cause some other anxiety in her? Maybe she is quiet and the nanny was vivacious. Maybe your W compared her aging body to the nanny's youthful one. I don't know just want you to think about it. There is also the possibility that so many of the Hs here experience: the you should have known or paid attention to my issues without me telling you or I tried to tell you but you didn't listen to me. Was there infidelity in her family of origin that made her suspicious? Maybe she has had feelings for other men during your M and assume you have had extramarital feelings too?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Thanks for all the questions. I'll try to do my best to answer in order as fully as I can. Obviously there's a lot I don't know here, but I'm not holding back on anything.
1. How does this affect the rest of her life and parenting? Really no effect on her parenting. She's a loving mom when she's not talking about splitting up the family. As for the rest of her life, she's basically lost all of her friends in our community, either by cutting them out of her life or alienating them with veiled (and sometimes no so veiled) accusations about them mistreating her. The only person who knows about this and has her complete trust is her sister, who agrees that she's acting unstable but is understandably reluctant to insert herself too much on my behalf. Ultimately, blood is blood.
2. She is getting some help, but is it the best help you can get? Are you treating this with the same urgency you would if she was dying of a physical illness? Hard to answer. Because of the nature of all this, there's only so much I can know. I'm not sitting in on her appointments and her counselors/doctors can't share information. I really have no idea if they're hearing the exact same stories I am or what they're telling her.
3. Why else do you suspect MLC? Just her previous counselor's remark, the age at which this hit and the fact that we - like you - got together young and have not had a lot of outside romantic experience, which makes me wonder whether she thinks she missed out.
4. Did she feel emotionally disconnected or neglected by you? Not that I know of. She never suggested it. I meant it when I wrote that this was out of the blue, at least to me. In fact, about 2-3 months before it surfaced, we took an extended weekend away without the kids (our first since we had kids) and had a fantastic, romantic time. I understand what you're saying about how this couldn't have materialized out of thin air, but I've racked my brain looking for missing clues and have come up empty. Not saying I couldn't have missed anything, but if there were something I remain ignorant to it.
5. Was the nanny her opposite or cause some other anxiety in her? Not that I know of.
6. Was there infidelity in her family of origin that made her suspicious? Maybe. Her sister and her husband had some marital issues not long beforehand, in which they both had quick flings. I don't know many of the details, though.
7. Maybe she has had feelings for other men during your M and assume you have had extramarital feelings too? She insists this is not the case. Until this guy came along she says she never had feelings, even a minor crush, for anyone outside the marriage.
Changing all of your friends is another symptom of MLC.
What is your R with her sister? Is she helpful or hurtful to the situation?
No, you can't know and you don't want to criticize but maybe keep the door open for her to evaluate her own situation. Ask questions and be curious without being critical: what do you think of your doctors? Any thoughts about your current mix of medications? I'm guessing here.
MLC is many things, a re evaluation of life that takes place somewhere between 35-50. Am I happy with how I have lived my life? Am I where I want to be--physically, relationally, professionally, spiritually? It's a crisis when a person is dissatisfied with their answers to some or all of these questions and feels stuck or trapped. Does this sound like your W? The MLC forum has a good list of recommended books.
The weekend away may have been her last attempt to see if she could see a life together with you before BD. I have a heartbreaking story to share: a few months before BD, my W asked me to re propose to her with getting down on one knee, a new ring, everything. We did all that and then...BD. I couldn't believe it and the. Read other stories here where the same thing happened.
This is pure speculation: if your W was close to your nanny, it's possible that your nanny spoke of you in very positive ways to your W and your W may have misconstrued those comments to be something they weren't. Maybe it was around the same time as this happening to a celebrity or someone she knew. Who knows, but something triggered some mistrust in her, possibly related to your but possibly not.
You said she is close to her sister. If she had an A then you can bet it had an influence on your W, more than you are expressing.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I had a co-worker whose wife went awol - everyone was out to get her, everyone is spying on her, they were out to get her family... this got so bad she drove erratically with the kids, throwing cell phones onto the interstate, and had to have police stop her running into the middle of an intersection screaming at the top of her lungs.
Her condition was related to mental health and severe pre-menopausal symptoms. I can't remember the name of the condition, but it exists. She was closer to 50-55, but I've heard of women becoming pre-menopausal early in life.
Just came to my mind when you mentioned your sitch, Kane.
I think a medical doctor needs to run some full tests on her thyroid and other levels.
M46, EXWW46 M15 T17 D20, S19, D13 M - Addiction since 1998 W EA/PA #1 2013/2014 W EA #2 June 2015... BD 1 Big D talk 9/15 BD 2 - EA/PA disc 10/30/15 Served D 1/22/16 Divorced 5/25/16 (yes, that fast!)
I had a co-worker whose wife went awol - everyone was out to get her, everyone is spying on her, they were out to get her family... this got so bad she drove erratically with the kids, throwing cell phones onto the interstate, and had to have police stop her running into the middle of an intersection screaming at the top of her lungs.
Her condition was related to mental health and severe pre-menopausal symptoms. I can't remember the name of the condition, but it exists. She was closer to 50-55, but I've heard of women becoming pre-menopausal early in life.
Just came to my mind when you mentioned your sitch, Kane.
I think a medical doctor needs to run some full tests on her thyroid and other levels.
Thanks for mentioning this, Trumpet. In fact, W's previous therapist told her she believed some of her issues were related to pre-menopause. I believe the term you're looking for is perimenopause. I certainly can encourage further testing, but I've found that the more I suggest something, the more likely she is to resist it. Hence, while she knows some of her beliefs are not well-grounded in reality, me pointing out how/why some of her beliefs are erroneous usually leads her to dig in her heels. That's known as psychological reactance.
Hence, while she knows some of her beliefs are not well-grounded in reality, me pointing out how/why some of her beliefs are erroneous usually leads her to dig in her heels. That's known as psychological reactance.
It seems like many of our ex's are in the same boat. I won't go into my ex's story, its easy enough to find on here. Mine fully believes what she is doing is right and just and all that jazz.
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
Changing all of your friends is another symptom of MLC.
What is your R with her sister? Is she helpful or hurtful to the situation?
Thanks, Gordie.
I may have been unclear when I wrote that my wife has lost her friends. She hasn't changed her friends, in the sense that she's hanging with a new crowd. She just doesn't have friends. The people with whom she used to socialize, text, speak with by phone, etc., have for all intents been cut from her life, either by their choice or hers. No more nights out, lunches, chatting with fellow moms at the kids' sporting events, etc. If she does go out for dinner or a movie with someone other than me, it's her mom or sister.
My relationship with W's sister is good. We've never been super tight, but always gotten along well. Her sister agrees that something is wrong with W's thinking and that this extreme infatuation with the other guy is ridiculous. However, they're sisters and closer than any other set of siblings I know. While W's sister will and has told her she's heading in a wrong direction, she's not going to take sides or do anything to alienate their relationship. I'm OK with that. As for sister's affair, though I'm light on details, what I do know is that nothing that occurred there would give my W any message beyond affairs are destructive to everyone, including the betrayer. Nothing I know about the whole thing would encourage my wife's current mindset.
While your situation bears nothing to do with my own, I find it particularly heartbreaking.
You love your W but find yourself in a bewildering situation and you don't know if your M can survive. While lots of us here feel like our spouses have gone crazy...yours has...literally. Here is something I would consider/ask myself if I was in your shoes:
I love my W more than anything, including my M and myself. I would do anything for her to get the help and treatment that she needs in order to get well, no matter that it may have a negative affect on my M and me personally. If this is the case, can you and your sister-in-law team up to get her the help she needs, as it appears from your description, she isn't getting it and you are both very, very concerned. People who lose touch with reality can do a lot of self-harm as well as harm to others. In the others category, I'd be most concerned for your children. I don't want to scare you, but I'm sure you can read up on all of the bad things that have happened in similar situations and could happen in yours. In that respect, if you have any guns in the house, I'd ask a friend to hold on to them for a while.
P.S. If she has cut herself from all people, it doesn't sound like MLC--as MLCers try to find new friends to encourage their new lifestyle. This just sounds like mental illness to me (not an expert).
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Kane10-- I too have a middle-aged W who has fallen in love w/ someone and believes her love is reciprocated even though it's been made clear to her that it's simply not the case. Unlike your wife, though, she doesn't also believe that everyone else is talking about her.
Anyway, it seems to me that in your situation is primarily a mental health problem, not a marital problem. I believe mental health status isn't black and white, so many spouses being discussed in this forum have different shades of mental/emotional health problems, including some types of delusions. But your wife is having serious narcissistic-paranoid delusions about lots of people. It's heartbreaking but I believe there is very little you can do to make it better other than to support her being treated by mental health professionals. Various DB strategies and techniques assume that the spouse is in reasonable mental health.
If you haven't already, I strongly suggest that you meet with her mental health caregivers, if that is possible, and talk about her delusions. If you somehow cannot talk about her mental health and delusions, you could go see a psychiatrist yourself and consult her/him and seek guidance on coping with her mental problems. (Psychiatrists will see you for mental health of a family member).
Once you have a clear diagnosis and prognosis, then you have to make the hard decision of whether you're going to stick it out or give up.
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
My wife is delusionally convinced that virtually everyone she knows is obsessed with her obsession over this guy.
(1) She believes people from our kids' school follow her to see if she's meeting with this guy. (2) She believes our kids' sports leagues set up their game and practice schedules so they know where she'll be at certain times. (3) She believes people stop by our house to check up on her. (4) She believes I've asked people to spy on her. (5) She believes school functions are scheduled to keep track of her and this guy. (6) She believes people have hacked her email and moved things around in various folders to either send her clues or just mess with her mind. (7) She believes I somehow track this guy's movements. There's more, but you probably get the gist.
Kane10 -- this is what I'm talking about. You've listed 7 ways in which your wife is having paranoid delusions; and you say there's even more.
I think this is severe. To the point that it's not reasonable for you to expect your wife to respond to any reasonable effort from you to save your marriage. In fact, if you persisted in hoping that your wife would respond to some rational approach from you, I would say you are the delusional one!
I'm sorry if this is harsh. I take mental health issues seriously; and have been thinking about it for a long time. I mean no disrespect to you and your situation. I just think DB is the wrong approach when someone is having a severe mental health problem.
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
My W is in love with a celebrity that she emails. He replies but only a few friendly words now and then. She has blown this up in her mind to be that they are in love. She even thinks that some of the things that he posts on his facebook page are secret messages from him to her. It seems like your W is even deeper in her delusion than mine is. I am trying to learn about my situation as quickly as I can but it is definitely not easy. I will be following your thread and will offer my opinion if I can see somewhere that it might help. Good luck to you. Hang in there.
Thanks for your thoughts, Gump. I largely agree ... the marital issues are intertwined with the mental health issues, and the former won't be settled until the latter are resolved, or at least better managed.
Unfortunately, I don't think meeting with her mental health caregivers is an option. They're legally and ethically prohibited from discussing her treatment with anyone, spouse included, without consent. Theoretically, they couldn't even confirm that my wife is a patient, not that there's any doubt. One of my biggest fears is that they're not being told everything I'm being told. My wife assures me they are, but I have no idea if that's true. I'd like to think the treatment might be a bit more aggressive if they knew everything, but I'm no expert and have to trust that they're doing their best for her. I've debated with myself whether I should just email her therapist about what's going on. I wouldn't ask for or expect a response, but it would be one way be sure she knows everything. The downside is that could further damage the very thin thread of trust between my wife and I.
Ultimately here's my pickle .... If my wife were clear-minded and told me she was in love with someone else, hoped to pursue a relationship with that person and doubts she will have romantic feelings toward me again, I would end our marriage. It would suck, especially for our kids, but I'd be confident it was the right thing to do. The problem with all that is, she's not clear-minded and I can't trust the validity of what she says she feels about our relationship any more than I can trust that she's right about a 1,000-member youth sports league building its schedule around her, or that parents of our kids' friends are following her to events miles from our hometown to keep an eye on her, or any of the other delusions she's experiencing.
Thanks again.
p.s. Gordie .... I appreciate your safety concerns. We're a gun-free household and my wife has never shown any violent tendencies. What she's experiencing is undoubtedly scary and I'm watching her actions closely, but fortunately I've seen nothing to make me even remotely fearful of anyone's safety.
The downside is that could further damage the very thin thread of trust between my wife and I.
Kane, you are a far wiser person than I am, to see this early on.
You are indeed in a very sensitive spot: you don't want to erode you W's trust, but you have to balance that with what you think is best for your family.
What do you think about getting some professional guidance from a separate mental health professional? Tell them about the various delusions your W is having, and ask them what they think you ought to do? (I have done that w/ my situation.)
Me: 50, MLC/WW 45 Young kids Nov 2015: BD1 Apr 2016: BD2 Jan 2017: W filed Feb 2017: D final
What do you think about getting some professional guidance from a separate mental health professional? Tell them about the various delusions your W is having, and ask them what they think you ought to do? (I have done that w/ my situation.)
It's funny you mention that. I obtained a referral just yesterday to meet with a counselor/therapist, in part for this reason. The other part is dealing with my own issues from all this, and finding the best way forward myself and my kids.
What do you think about getting some professional guidance from a separate mental health professional? Tell them about the various delusions your W is having, and ask them what they think you ought to do? (I have done that w/ my situation.)
It's funny you mention that. I obtained a referral just yesterday to meet with a counselor/therapist, in part for this reason. The other part is dealing with my own issues from all this, and finding the best way forward myself and my kids.
Hello Kane10,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It is going to sound like an echo around here. It is a good idea for you to speak with a professional regarding your situation and how the handle your wife's mental health issues. How do you go about doing that without making your situation worse?
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.
Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
Hey everybody ... figured I'd update my situation since it's been a couple of weeks (and if for no other reason, it's therapeutic to write it down sometimes).
It seems like a lot has happened in the past 10 days, and yet we're pretty much in the same place we were when I first posted. For a while it seemed we were moving in the right direction ... more touching, some kissing, planning future family trips, planning a night out without the kids, etc. That all came crashing down Wednesday/Thursday when W abruptly turned distant and began saying again that she's only interested in being friends, sees a future for herself with the other guy and would be willing to stay together for the sake of the kids, but doesn't see any sort of a "love" relationship with me. I pressed a bit about the sudden change in her attitude from earlier in the week, but she didn't want to tell me. However, from what little she did say and from what I could piece together, I think I've figured it out ... and it's a doozy. Several weeks back, a mutual friend of ours mentioned to my wife that a close friend of her and her husband was going through a separation. My wife is now convinced this person going through a separation is none other than the guy with whom she's obsessed. This despite voluminous evidence to the contrary - starting with the fact that this guy and our mutual friends don't know each other well, much less are they "close friends." I think my wife has convinced herself that this guy may soon be back on the market, so to speak, so she's preparing herself to be available to catch him on the rebound. I know ... it's messed up.
So, what am I doing? My best to roll with it for now, avoiding relationship talk and any sort of romantic overtures. We did go out without the kids as planned last night, and had a friendly, but definitely platonic, time. I only agreed to go after other plans I'd made fell through. She was the one who picked the restaurant, made reservations and found a place for the kids to be. Really, all in all it was a decent night, and I went into it with zero expectations, which definitely helped me relax and try to enjoy myself. Not sure if it did anything in terms of helping/hurting my marriage, but that's OK.
Beyond that, I'm working to get situated with a therapist, to deal with my own emotions from all this, help me decide what's best for me and my kids, and (hopefully) gain some insight into what's happened to the person I used to know as my wife.
Thanks again for listening, any any thoughts/advice/insight.
One more thing, if it helps/matters: We did discuss a little bit what our expectations of what a divorce might look like, and one thing that's clear is that W hasn't really thought this through. She hasn't considered the financial implications, custody arrangements, how/where the kids would be schooled, living circumstances or really any of those sorts of details. She did say she'd be OK if she were the one to leave the home and she would just visit the kids there. She'd plan to move in with her parents (who would be quite shocked, given that they know nothing about any of this).
What this reinforces to me is that she's basically still living in a fantasy world where she wants what she wants but has not put much thought into the consequences.
I think your wife is very mentally ill. She appears to have a delusion called erotomania. This is more than a fantasy, it's a delusion. I don't think she is a danger to herself or others but I do think she will sabotage her life by following the rabbit trail of her thoughts.
Find a therapist that does Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for psychosis. Confrontation is not a good technique for dismantling her delusions, it will actually cause he to dig her heels in deeper.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
I second Paysara. Any update on her mental health issues, whether or not her providers are aware of all of the issues, and how you are caring for yourself?
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Also, HIPAA basically means the therapist cannot disclose any information your wife discloses during her sessions. (without your wife signing a release) But you can call the therapist and tell him/her about all your wife's behavior and there is no law/rule against that. (I used to receive calls all the time where a patient's relative/loved one had serious concerns and felt I need "the whole picture.")
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
We had another talk tonight, and after that things seem pretty much over. She said she wants a D, and I feel I'm at a point where I'm a combination of too tired to struggle on and, even if I had the energy, completely out of ideas on how to put things back on track. It's tragic that my family is being blown apart in this way, but ultimately she feels there's no way forward and isn't willing to try to find one. I'm not there yet, and am holding out a sliver of hope she comes around, but my mindset is shifting from one of holding it together to one of breaking it up in the least painful way possible, especially as far as the kids are concerned. What kills me here - and perhaps always will - are that two of her three reasons are grounded in delusion. Her third is that just doesn't feel she can love me in the way a wife should love her husband. That may be true, but it hurts that she's unwilling to put in the effort to find out. Apparently for better or worse, etc., don't mean what they used to. Honestly, I'd welcome any suggestions, but I think I'm at the end of the road here. Thanks for the support.
Hey everyone, looks like I'm back for another round.
The morning after I wrote that post two weeks ago when the end seemed nigh, my wife approached me and said she was again feeling like she didn't want a divorce and wanted to give it more time. So, to recap, in the space of about a week she went from wanting a divorce, to being unsure, to taking divorce off the table, to wanting a divorce, to taking divorce off the table again. Unfortunately, my gut tells me, based on recent behavior, she's back to leaning toward divorce and just hasn't told me yet. The roller coaster is utterly exhausting.
A couple of updates on me: - I went and saw a counselor. He seemed decent, but I wouldn't say we clicked. We spent a majority of the session discussing her behavior/thinking, and he agrees she's suffering from some sort of delusional disorder. Unfortunately, he also believes the chances of her seeing marked improvement aren't stellar, particularly because she lacks much insight into her problem. He said there wouldn't be anything inappropriate about me contacting my wife's psychologist to relay what I know about her condition, because there's a chance that my wife either isn't sharing everything or simply shares in a way that offers a perspective very different from my own. I haven't done that yet, but am seriously considering it. They have an appointment later today, so I wouldn't do it until sometime after that. Doing so beforehand seems manipulative.
- I'm still committed to trying to make the marriage work, mostly because I'm confident everything that's gone on the last couple of years is a result of mental illness, and not my wife's "true" feelings and attitudes. Also, because I'm certain divorce would be the worst outcome for everyone involved, our kids in particular. For me, going through a divorce would be lousy and heartbreaking, but I think I personally would come out OK and am largely over the fear associated with it. By no means would I embrace the process, but I could accept it, I think.
All that said, I've had a lot of thoughts/ideas rattling around my head, and I wanted to bounce them off you guys:
1. If she says again she wants a divorce, I'm thinking of showing her the door. I know I can't kick her out, but I certainly could encourage it and I don't think it would take much pushing to get her to go. At best, it serves as a bit of a wake up call. At worst, it's just the first step down the road we're heading regardless. Thoughts?
2. So far, other than therapists, the only person who's aware of all this is my wife's sister. She's been truly kind to me - thanking me on several occasions for hanging in there, etc. - and has encouraged my wife to stay in/work on the marriage. That's largely fallen on deaf ears, though. My wife greatly respects her father, and I'm debating whether to make him aware of the situation. We're not super close, but we get along, and I'm certain he'd frown upon his daughter breaking up her family to pursue a married man. And he'd be a forceful advocate for her to get well. The potential downside, of course, is it further alienating my wife from me and/or her family.
3. Speaking of getting others involved - and I admit this may be a terrible idea - do I tell the guy she's obsessing over what's going on? I don't know him well, but by all accounts he's a good guy, and he deserves credit for not taking advantage of the situation when he could have. It would quite probably be the most awkward conversation of my life. I wouldn't ask or expect him to do anything with the information, though I suppose there's hope that once it's out there it may help kill my wife's fantasy that he secretly feels the same about her, etc. And I almost feel that he and his wife deserve fair warning. Though my wife denies it, I have little doubt that if we divorce she eventually intends to pursue a relationship with this guy, whether he's married or not. So ... terrible idea?
Sorry for the rambling. As always, thanks for reading/responding.
1. If she offers divorce I would only show her the door if you are willing to go THROUGH and actual divorce. Hard lines and ultimatums mean nothing if you aren't willing to follow through if you are caught bluffing. You can decide to no longer get on your wife's roller coaster and tell her she is welcome to file and do all the legwork but you will not assist.
2. You will get different responses on this, MWD advice NOT to get family involved as it can backfire spectacularly. (Lord, knows it did in my case) With others putting pressure on her she will find herself more isolated and feeling no one is willing to consider her feelings. People with delusional disorders do not "wake up" when close family members get critical and confrontational, as a matter of fact it cause worsening of symptoms. This is called high EE (expressed emotionalism) when the family responds critically to a thought disorder. Honestly, she needs a therapist that specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy for psychosis.
3. Getting the other guy involved would be useless. Again, your wife's mind is likely to misconstrue his reaction. She may interpret him as "playing hard to get" or "No means yes." This is called ideas of reference; believing eye contact, facial expressions and actions as "secret signals." Delusions are slippery and will change shape the moment you confront with facts.
Your wife's doubt about divorce is a VERY good sign. Ambivalence is so much better than cold determination, it means there's a sliver of a crack to squeeze into. How were you behaving when she expressed doubt? What was the interactions like between you two at that time? This is important so you can continue to build on what was working.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Psysara. Some thoughts ...
1. Yeah, I am actually willing to go through with the divorce. It's not my preference, and I think it would lead to lesser outcomes for everyone involved, but everyone has limits, right? Asking her to leave wouldn't necessarily be a precursor to divorce, IMO. I mean, I fully recognize and accept that it might be, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. That said, I don't think I'm at that place (asking her to leave) right now.
2/3. Yeah, for now I think it's best to keep everyone who's not already aware of the situation out of it. And you're 100 percent correct about the slippery nature of the delusions. Rather than going away when confronted with non-conforming facts, they're contorted to fit the facts.
to update, when I wrote my last post, W was going into a meeting with her therapist, after which I believed she'd likely come out more determined to divorce. No real reason for that, just gut instinct based on the fact it was a hastily scheduled appointment, i.e. not on the regular schedule. Lo and behold, that night she seemed less certain about splitting up and even said (words to the effect of) that she doesn't think her negative feelings about our relationship/future are necessarily permanent, and she could see herself once again loving me like a wife should love her husband. So, that was kind of unexpected and out of nowhere.
I didn't press her on the reasons for this change - I'm getting much better at not pressing her on her feelings, which was a big weakness of mine. But she volunteered that she and her therapist had worked on a list of divorce pros and cons, and there were far more cons than pros. What's working for now seems to be largely related to the 180 advice, i.e. not bringing up the relationship, not initiating much talk, doing my own thing, etc. So while a lot of that goes against my nature - I'm a fixer - I'm doing my best just to let things marinade for now.
You are doing great! I still struggle not to dig my husband's brain for relationship talks, feelings etc., I took the advice of my DBing coach and backed off that. My WH appears to be lowering his guards finally and still I have to hurry up and wait, lol!
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
You are so smart to recognize what is working so you can stick with it. I'm sure it felt good to hear that your wife was less certain about splitting up. Be very cautious based on the confusion and mental illness concerns
I highly recommend taking of advantage of the online community special for Telephone Coaching. You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Please call me to discuss our DB coaching program at 303-444-7004.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator The Divorce Busting Center 303-444-7004
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