Help - Setting Boundaries, WW in EA - Thread #2

[Woke_Up]

I know this is all very different to MWD's approach, but I do think you will find that your W is an Emotional Abuser and the book will trigger a lot of alarms. I don't believe there is any way back for them. Sorry.

I am going through the VAR book, and I must admit, it makes me feel a bit depressed/sad about the sitch - as if she never changes then I will need to make a conscious choice to be in that sort of R or to get out. I am also trying not to focus on just her but on the elements that I may display of verbal abuse/control. It is interesting in that it talks about reality 1 & reality 2 - but I wonder if in cases where the woman is the abuser, whether actually both live in reality 1 a lot of the time. While I see alot of myself in the 'partner' role described on the book, I am also conscious that I have previously identified her behaviour as emotional or verbal abuse.

She does not see a problem with her behaviour, and in fact when I probably foolishly) described the drama triangle to her before Christmas, she said "isn't that just normal though"

It is an A. The method of cheating is irrelevant.

I've come back to this comment. I haven't mentioned it for a while, other than NYE saying I wouldn't work on things while it was ongoing. I seem to have put myself in cake feeding limbo and need to work my way out again.

Protect yourself and your kids and remember, your W is not the enemy. Her upbringing is. She is not a bad person, she is just a mixed up child that has not been able to mend herself.

This is what makes me sad. I love he dearly. I know she suffered horribly in her childhood (emotionally, with some physically thrown in). I am not sure she will ever recognise this enough to want to take steps to heal herself, and in doing so enable us to have a mutually healthy R.

Anyway, I hope your sitch is going OK at the moment. Take care mate.

[MrBond]

Ok, but you missed the most important thing. Your goals.

Sounds like you made it to what NOT to do but didn't read the part about how you create goals to start turning things around. Go back and read the book in its entirety. What are your measurable goals and actions?

[sandi2]

OK, but with temp testing, which seems to be happening a lot at the moment, how do I respond without appearing cold?

Why are you so worried you will appear cold to the woman who is abusing or disrespecting you?

For instance, Fri there was lots of Spew, Saturday a little bit of drunken spewing, Sunday morning, WW wants to ML & asks 'Don't I love her?'.

I would have used a stern but calm voice and said something like, "It's never been a question about my love. It appears, however, there's a question about your love". Then I would have promptly told her thanks, but no thanks for the offer of sex.....and I would have walked out of the room much like Rhett Butler walked away from Scarlett. And.....I would not have cared if she thought I was cold or hot. Call it a truth dart, or whatever. I just think there is a time & place you have to show respect for yourself, when the other person is using you. But that's just me, and what's more important here is how did YOU respond?

Doing a 180 would be starting more conversations, and being proactive in conversations, as well as the active & intent listening. Just wondering how this fits with the WW sitch when she won't end the EA. Do I try & 180 (as it would make me a better man anyway, not just a better partner/H) to be more proficient at starting conversations.

Just for the record.....you don't have to 180 everything! IMHO, the LBS's show their pursuing side when they use the 180 technique as their excuse to do what their "feelings" are wanting. Practice learning how to be more proficient on other people, but not your W.

When she was mini-spewing on NYE, it came across that she wanted me to make changes - I was saying I know I have to make changes and will work on them when she commits to working on our R, i.e. - ends the EA. She took it as I never make conversations and won't in future.

So? You have told her you will not start working on things as long as she continues her A. But now you want to call it self improvement. I think you should practice with others, and when she stops her affair (if she doesn't start another one), you will be polished and ready to indulge a hearty conversation with her.

Not saying I love you first - although I have been responding if she says it first? Unsure on this being a good idea.

No ILY's is no ILY's. It doesn't matter who says it first. Maybe it would be easier if you just told us how things have changed for her in the MR. Has she had to lose anything since her A started?

What am I not doing well:
1. detaching emotionally. I am still allowing myself to be temp checked regularly, responding to WW's signs of affections or ML.
2. Any sort of last resort or tough love
3. Applying firm but meaningful boundaries for MYSELF.

I don't think you can apply #2 as long as you are telling her you love her and having sex when she initiates. Just b/c she wants sex does not mean she is in love with you, nor does it mean it's some sign of progress being made.....if she's still conducting an A. You know that, right? My sex drive jumped over the moon when I was having an EA. I just didn't have any desire for my H. Some women will have sex with their H, while fantasizing about the OM. Maybe you have some other woman in your head while having sex, IDK, I'm just saying that her tempt checking you is about her checking to see if she still has control over you, and how attached you are to her. Yes, it her selfishness, but also, WW's are big manipulators. Having sex with her keeps you confused and basically scared to apply any sort of boundary, but this is just my opinion about a WW's stitch. I believe the common thread that runs through most problems involving a wayward in the MR, is their high level of disrespect, deep resentment, and rebellion toward the the H. There can be other factors added....but those three seem to form the foundation. Therefore, the H needs to approach the stitch by using those three as units of measurement. As long as she is displaying a hint of disrespect, resentment, or rebellion in some form....there will be no progression in their MR. It may be covered up for a while, but eventually, he will experience all of this again if it is not previously tackled. So......you can be her BFF, or have sex every night, or stand on your toes trying to do whatever she wants you to do, but there will be no change in her heart until those 3 (at least) areas have started showing evidence of change. At the very least, she needs to recognize it and be willing to do what is necessary to work through it to save the MR. It usually takes professional help to guide the couple back to a truly healthy place. Of course, she will need to end any and all inappropriate contacts.

My biggest concern/area of self doubt is whether I should be 180ing (which I am wanting to do, as it is a personal self improvement as I see it) or whether I should be growing a pair and working out ways of applying tough love in this sitch.

What, beside the conversations, are you wanting to 180? There are a lot of things you could 180 that have nothing to do with her....and could be for personal growth. No offense, but I think you are cherry picking just a little bit....and calling it personal growth.

[Surfer]

Matey,

It is interesting in that it talks about reality 1 & reality 2 - but I wonder if in cases where the woman is the abuser, whether actually both live in reality 1 a lot of the time. W

I thought exactly the same. We are both stubborn people and determined. However, there is a difference. You see the problem and therefore will act via not doing it again (hopefully) or at least trying not to and also, most importantly providing a genuine apology (which, most likely is never really fully accepted). On the other hand she does not recognise her poor behaviour (she sees it as normal due to FOO stuff) and therefore why would she apologise - that's just normal isn't it? [No!]. Finally, if she did apologise and really try - would you accept her apology? If the answer is yes, my case is closed, you are not an abuser. You might say things that are abusive to sensitive skin - you do this, think I am etc; this is normal when vexed - but do you really go out to abuse?? Are you always right really?

Food for thought.

Yes, it is sad, do you continue to be abused? If you let her she will continue to. Alternatively you get some boundaries and manage it the best you can. But, as the book says, it rarely gets better with a female abuser (if ever). Sorry you are going through this but you are, so am I, so best face up to it and how to deal with it. Time to man up but in a different way pal - all human thinking, no chimping out (see the chimp paradox - I recommend you read this too).

I am just starting to read a book on boundaries. I will give you some feedback when done.

Final word. Do not fear things. This is a bump in the road in your life. Looking back, it will all be fine, you just need to go through it. Do what helps you focus rather than fear.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Final point. You are not alone! You can do this....

Surfer.

[Woke_Up]

Why are you so worried you will appear cold to the woman who is abusing or disrespecting you?

Good point. I had thought it was part of the technique to detach without being cold, but

Call it a truth dart, or whatever. I just think there is a time & place you have to show respect for yourself, when the other person is using you. But that's just me, and what's more important here is how did YOU respond?

As you may have guessed. I had sex with her. And a couple of night ago I initiated. I know it's not the right thing to do, I can't sex her into dropping the A, and psychologically thinking that I am one up on the EAP if she is still having sex with me, isn't healthy either.

Just for the record.....you don't have to 180 everything! IMHO, the LBS's show their pursuing side when they use the 180 technique as their excuse to do what their "feelings" are wanting. Practice learning how to be more proficient on other people, but not your W.

OK, I saw someone else say that also, recently. I will work my conversation skills on others. Also, other 180 actions.

Not saying I love you first - although I have been responding if she says it first? Unsure on this being a good idea.

No ILY's is no ILY's. It doesn't matter who says it first.

Right. I was not clear on that. DR and the 37 rules just said don't tell her ILY and nothing about how to respond. So if when says it, would you advise saying nothing, or making a comment regarding her A being at odds with that statement. She has also been saying it in text messages quite a bit recently.

Maybe it would be easier if you just told us how things have changed for her in the MR. Has she had to lose anything since her A started?

She now has to put up with me in the MBR. For now. That's about it. If anything, since getting my head together a bit more and stopping snooping, she has had it easier, as I am not blowing up with anger or bitterness.

No, she has not had to lose anything. There is nothing I can make her lose (materially) without it appearing punitive or controlling (as discussed previously - internet access, money, etc). She will lose the MBR. She has ordered another new bed - 3rd within 3 months - one ended up going to SS16, other she never used, will now be stored as 'not good enough' and now a third for her 'bad back'. This arrives on Tuesday. She will move room then. She has persuaded herself it is all to do with her need for sleep and me being a disturbance rather than anything to do with A.

What can she lose, non materially? My affection, my doing things for her still. This always seems a strange one, as there is still quid pro quo going on - she makes dinner, does laundry etc. Then again, you could say that is picking up her role as a SAHM. Anyway, the pushback will be that she doesn't do those things for me, and that is something that I can easily live with - I am more than capable of feeding myself and my family and of doing the laundry.

What am I not doing well:
1. detaching emotionally. I am still allowing myself to be temp checked regularly, responding to WW's signs of affections or ML.
2. Any sort of last resort or tough love
3. Applying firm but meaningful boundaries for MYSELF.

I don't think you can apply #2 as long as you are telling her you love her and having sex when she initiates....

In my mind, I know this. I have just been unwilling to take the steps to be tough, hoping I guess, that trying to make improvements to myself will eventually, maybe, make her realise that it would be madness to continue to pursue the OM - even though I know from people her and from DR that that should be a side effect, if lucky, not an actual aim of my improvements.

So......you can be her BFF, or have sex every night, or stand on your toes trying to do whatever she wants you to do, but there will be no change in her heart until those 3 (at least) areas have started showing evidence of change. At the very least, she needs to recognize it and be willing to do what is necessary to work through it to save the MR. It usually takes professional help to guide the couple back to a truly healthy place. Of course, she will need to end any and all inappropriate contacts.

Well all 3 elements are still apparent, and she shows no sign of ending contact. I have been wallowing again. Wallowing in pity for me, pity for her. Trying to improve myself, but without the application of any boundaries other than picking her up on it when she is disrespectful or about to start spewing. And not overly successfully even then.

No offense, but I think you are cherry picking just a little bit....and calling it personal growth.

None taken. You are right. Maybe not so much cherry picking as stopping at the first major area I come to (as I know it was a problem in the MR] and fixating on that. I will think harder and make a list of of areas to work on that are not related to WW.

[Woke_Up]

Ok. So this day is turning into a doozy. This morning we was affectionate etc, wanted to cuddle me.

Later she wants me and SS to move bed out of spare room to make way for new bed. I refuse to have anything to do with it.

WW and as manhandle bed base downstairs (it's in 2 pieces, not that heavy). WW loses rag and throws pieces outside and says they can be chopped up. Then she proceeds to have a go at me for letting a 'potentially pregnant woman' do heavy lifting.

It is highly improbably that she is pregnant, not impossible. I said I wouldn't have anything to do with the her A, and that she was moving out due to A.

Anyway, quite a bit of belittling. Thoughts, should I have helped? I mean it gets her out of MBR? Or should I stick my ground and say no?

Am I picking the wrong battles? I don't even want a battle. I am just sick and tired of letting myself be a doormat. I told her that she just wanted a nice docile affectionate husband while she continued her A.

[MrBond]

Sounds like you made it to what NOT to do but didn't read the part about how you create goals to start turning things around. Go back and read the book in its entirety. What are your measurable goals and actions?

[Woke_Up]

MrBond

I need to find space and time. I will go back as you suggest. I will also read what I write down first time. Today I am spinning.

[Woke_Up]

Today I am full of self doubt, fear, loneliness- I know I need to break out of the status quo, but I am struggling to be positive - I need to rekindle friendships, make new ones. I have let so much slide these past years.