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Originally Posted By: PatientMan
In all fairness I did kind of "cheat" in that I stuck all of Sandi's 37 rules into one guideline smile , but - regardless- when you begin to live these rules out so much so that you discover you are having to think about what to do less and just doing it more, you will also discover you are emotionally more stable and happier than you have been in a while.

Naturally, detaching from a spouse is difficult (as it should be), but not having your general sense of well-being tied to how a single other person interacts with you brings along with it a sense of liberation. This should not be confused with moving PAST your spouse, but moving FORWARD - engaged in life and ready for whatever is in store. It is not just the knowledge that you are going to be okay in the future no matter what happens, but the feeling that comes along with it...a sense of peaceful strength that is sourced from your core and radiates out of you.

-PM

I like it.
Good stuff here PM.


Me 46 Former W 46
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BD Feb 2016
WAW moves out 4/16/16
D final 6/1/2017

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Originally Posted By: PatientMan
In all fairness I did kind of "cheat" in that I stuck all of Sandi's 37 rules into one guideline smile , but - regardless- when you begin to live these rules out so much so that you discover you are having to think about what to do less and just doing it more, you will also discover you are emotionally more stable and happier than you have been in a while.


PatientMan - What are your thoughts on applying the 37 in a WW sitch? Sandi advises more of a tough love approach. I am thinking about numbers:

#5 - If the WS wants to talk about the future, make plans etc? It is OK, to have these conversations hen, or should it be a case of applying listening but not positively engaging in the plans, or even saying that I am not in a position to make future plans at the moment, much as I would like to be able to?

#15 - I normally was not one for starting conversation, and it is a bone of contention. I would have assumed that I should, as part of DBing, start to make more of an effort to start conversation, and that was what I initially was doing. But this seems at odds with the tough love approach.

#18 - just a note here. Being cold was what was coming across when I was trying to detach. Re-reading the 37 rules, I picked up on this, and can now consciously work on it. Emotional detachment, remaining close, not being cold.

#25 - I have been working on this, although difficult when she spews. Is this also still valid approach with WW?



Originally Posted By: PatentMan
Naturally, detaching from a spouse is difficult (as it should be), but not having your general sense of well-being tied to how a single other person interacts with you brings along with it a sense of liberation. This should not be confused with moving PAST your spouse, but moving FORWARD - engaged in life and ready for whatever is in store. It is not just the knowledge that you are going to be okay in the future no matter what happens, but the feeling that comes along with it...a sense of peaceful strength that is sourced from your core and radiates out of you.



This is solid gold. Thank you.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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I'm not Patient Man, but I would like to respond. First, let me make clear that the 37 rules are not to be applied when reconciling the MR. They were intended for confused LBS newcomers to have some quick tips in do's and don'ts when they first arrived on the forum. They are not designed to use during reconciliation/healing of the MR. I have yet to see a brand new, first time newcomerarrive here during reconciliation period. Instead, they arrive in crisis. But just in case there are any reading who are in the R stages of their M, I wanted this clarified....as I have tried to do in the past.

Quote:
#5 - If the WS wants to talk about the future, make plans etc? It is OK, to have these conversations hen, or should it be a case of applying listening but not positively engaging in the plans, or even saying that I am not in a position to make future plans at the moment, much as I would like to be able to?



Rule #5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject

If you'll notice, some rules are aimed in showing the LBS how to not pursue. #5 is such a rule. Many a desperate newcomer LBS will talk about future plans, in an attempt to positively impress the feelings the other S has about ending their M. If the WS initiates the conversation, then treat it as any other relationship temperature testing from your WS.
Quote:


#15 - I normally was not one for starting conversation, and it is a bone of contention. I would have assumed that I should, as part of DBing, start to make more of an effort to start conversation, and that was what I initially was doing. But this seems at odds with the tough love approach.



Rule #15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.


This one seems to be misunderstood by several posters in past times. I tried expounding on this one the most, and maybe that is where I made it more confusing, IDK. This is another rule to show the LBS how to not pursue. Some LBS's are really big talkers, and many talkers will start and extend conversations, b/c they use it to pursue the OS. Just like a phone call where the LBS often tries to find anything to keep the call going.....it is a form of pursuit. If the OS initiates the conversation, be polite and listen, without offering opinions. Use this time to validate, if OS is not talking about AP or disrespectfully spewing at the LBS. If no jabboring from the LBS is new and strange to the OS....they might ask, "What is wrong with you? Are you mad? Are you pouting?" If they ask what's wrong, then the LBS should quietly say he is just listening...or whatever answer seems more appropriate without causing argument.
Quote:


#18 - just a note here. Being cold was what was coming across when I was trying to detach. Re-reading the 37 rules, I picked up on this, and can now consciously work on it. Emotional detachment, remaining close, not being cold.


Great! smile

Quote:

#25 - I have been working on this, although difficult when she spews. Is this also still valid approach with WW?


Rule # 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying

IMHO, this particular rule is for those LBS'S who want to "explain" and "defend" their own actions, reasoning, intentions, etc. In their attempt to explain, they often will interupt, raise their voice to be heard over the OS, throw up their hands in frustration and exhibit other emotions...or ignore them while the OS is trying to speak. This rule is N/A for disrespectful speech/verbal abuse/ or spew slinging. When disrespectful speech or mannerisms enters into what the OS is saying, it is time to give them space, and not engage by further talk or listening.


I hope this helps. smile


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
PatientMan - What are your thoughts on applying the 37 in a WW sitch? Sandi advises more of a tough love approach.

Based on what I have read, you seem to be more in a newcomer mode...trying to get a hold of your situation and control of yourself, not so much a person who is in the position to reconcile his M. I understand that *you* may be ready for reconciliation, but it doesn't mean she is.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding your sitch.

Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
I am thinking about numbers:

#5 - If the WS wants to talk about the future, make plans etc? It is OK, to have these conversations hen, or should it be a case of applying listening but not positively engaging in the plans, or even saying that I am not in a position to make future plans at the moment, much as I would like to be able to?

#15 - I normally was not one for starting conversation, and it is a bone of contention. I would have assumed that I should, as part of DBing, start to make more of an effort to start conversation, and that was what I initially was doing. But this seems at odds with the tough love approach.

#18 - just a note here. Being cold was what was coming across when I was trying to detach. Re-reading the 37 rules, I picked up on this, and can now consciously work on it. Emotional detachment, remaining close, not being cold.

#25 - I have been working on this, although difficult when she spews. Is this also still valid approach with WW?

Sandi hit on these by clarifying the intent behind each "rule".

-PM


M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
Rule #5...
If the WS initiates the conversation, then treat it as any other relationship temperature testing from your WS.


OK, but with temp testing, which seems to be happening a lot at the moment, how do I respond without appearing cold? For instance, Fri there was lots of Spew, Saturday a little bit of drunken spewing, Sunday morning, WW wants to ML & asks 'Don't I love her?'. Then yesterday she is talking about how house prices have increased , but she thinks there will be an economic crash soon, so maybe we should sell the house and then bide our time until house prices drop before buying again.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Rule #15...

If no jabboring from the LBS is new and strange to the OS....they might ask, "What is wrong with you? Are you mad? Are you pouting?" If they ask what's wrong, then the LBS should quietly say he is just listening...or whatever answer seems more appropriate without causing argument.


No jabboring is the norm for me. Doing a 180 would be starting more conversations, and being proactive in conversations, as well as the active & intent listening. Just wondering how this fits with the WW sitch when she won't end the EA. Do I try & 180 (as it would make me a better man anyway, not just a better partner/H) to be more proficient at starting conversations. When she was mini-spewing on NYE, it came across that she wanted me to make changes - I was saying I know I have to make changes and will work on them when she commits to working on our R, i.e. - ends the EA. She took it as I never make conversations and won't in future.




Originally Posted By: sandi2
Rule # 25...

IMHO, this particular rule is for those LBS'S who want to "explain" and "defend" their own actions, reasoning, intentions, etc. In their attempt to explain, they often will interupt, raise their voice to be heard over the OS, throw up their hands in frustration and exhibit other emotions...or ignore them while the OS is trying to speak. This rule is N/A for disrespectful speech/verbal abuse/ or spew slinging. When disrespectful speech or mannerisms enters into what the OS is saying, it is time to give them space, and not engage by further talk or listening.


Mostly it is disrespectful speech at the moment. Then again, that has been true prior to current sitch. When not disrespectful I am working on listening attentively.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I hope this helps. smile


Always. Thanks, Sandi.


[/quote]


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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Originally Posted By: PatientMan
Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
PatientMan - What are your thoughts on applying the 37 in a WW sitch? Sandi advises more of a tough love approach.

Based on what I have read, you seem to be more in a newcomer mode...trying to get a hold of your situation and control of yourself, not so much a person who is in the position to reconcile his M. I understand that *you* may be ready for reconciliation, but it doesn't mean she is.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding your sitch.


PatientMan - You nailed it. I am in newcomer mode, definitely not in a position to think about reconciling, as WW refuses to end EA & go NC.

My mission currently (on top of following your action plan) is to get on top of boundaries. These have been lacking throughout our R, and putting them in place now, well let's just say I am finding it exceptionally difficult.

Thank you.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Did you actually finish reading DR?


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Actually, I didn't finish DR. I read the first 7 chapters then jumped to 10 on infidelity but haven't gone back to finish. I have so many books to read at the minute I have been jumping around. I'll get back on it.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
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What did you actually do that was described in the DR book? It doesn't sound like you did anything. The list known as "sandi's rules" are essentially from the book. If you didn't do any of the changes and actions detailed in DR, that's probably why nothing has changed.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

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Originally Posted By: MrBond
What did you actually do that was described in the DR book? It doesn't sound like you did anything. The list known as "sandi's rules" are essentially from the book. If you didn't do any of the changes and actions detailed in DR, that's probably why nothing has changed.


Well - what have I been doing (to a greater or lesser extent)?:
1. Pulling back. No phone calls or texts.
2. GAL - working on my online training course and joined a Krav maga class, had first session on Tuesday.
3. Snooping - this has been my poison. Haven't touched her phone in over a week.
4. Talking about EA/OM - have not brought this up at all recently. However, I have not been enforcing any boundaries so have put myself into enabling a cake eating limbo from what I see.
5. Listening attentively, focusing on what she is saying.
6. Not saying I love you first - although I have been responding if she says it first? Unsure on this being a good idea.
7. Avoiding engaging in arguments/spewing/escalation of conflicts (this is difficult).
8.Proactively starting conversations (this is a 180 for me) - I have however backed off on this as it doesn't seem to fit with a tough love approach.

What am I not doing well:
1. detaching emotionally. I am still allowing myself to be temp checked regularly, responding to WW's signs of affections or ML.
2. Any sort of last resort or tough love
3. Applying firm but meaningful boundaries for MYSELF.

I put initial focus on getting back in the MBR, even though the initial reason I wasn't in there had nothing to do with the EA. I think with hindsight this was a mistake. WW has ordered yet another bed (see earlier post) and there is a strong possibility she will move out of MBR at some point. I have no strong feelings either way. It would actually be easier for me to emotionally detach if I am not sleeping next to her, it is way too easy to reach out/cuddle in the night and is also too easy if ML is discussed.

This morning, she was disturbed when I got up at 5AM for work (I was as quiet as I could be, I suspect she was sleeping lightly by that point). I got a load of spew via text message (6 or 7 messages). I didn't respond to any. Then after I was at work she sent a reasonable text message, with kisses at the end. I replied to that one.

My biggest concern/area of self doubt is whether I should be 180ing (which I am wanting to do, as it is a personal self improvement as I see it) or whether I should be growing a pair and working out ways of applying tough love in this sitch.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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