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Originally Posted By: SH_
Woke_up, I would hope that you take PM up on his offer...
Action is the key to progress and success...
You can read, study and talk about it until the cows come home, but you would still be in the same place...until you take action.

I'm pulling for you


Thanks SH. I have read your words of wisdom on Surfer's threads, and take hope and inspiration from you also. You are right - action defines what is, the rest is just what might be.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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Woke_Up

Quote:
She tried to tell me I was responsible for her 'friendship' starting as she calls it.


I had exactly this. Their patter is all the same. You must first realise this - its utter horsesh!t and gaslighting. Ignore it all - you have to detach to do this.

Surfer.


M46/W40/D8/S6/T20/M12/Separated 6/2016,W takes kids
Issues2009
Wpartying w/g.f's2013on
EA2013PAdeniedWleavesMBR
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Quote:
she says my detached comments/validation sound patronising,


I think that may be true with many newcomer men, b/c if validation does not come naturally for him, it can sound phoney to the ears of a WW. Some men repeat the same one or two lines, and IMHO, it goes against what they intended. Understand that I am not against validation.

Quote:
said I was trying to dictate and control, and that she wasn't going to put up with me treating her like cr@p and telling her that she had to stop A before I would work on anything.


^^^^^^^That shows just how her thinking is so illogical.

IMHO, I don't think you need to tell her you have let her go. Just carry through with the actions.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Woke_Up

Quote:
WW just came down and said she was going to move out of MBR, was ordering a new bed with an orthopedic mattress , so now had no money left (I paid her wages into her account yesterday, so now no money for food for January unless I find more funds, which she knows I will have to).


My W did this. Then complained about bad back, bed etc. She basically wanted to buy new furiture to take with her. She just bought it when she moved. Your W is working out a way to leave IMHO. Don't make it easy but Rule No.1 (forever whilst you live together). NO ENGAGING IF SHE IS ESCALATING/RAGING/DISRESPECTING!!! Rule 2. Never fall foul on Rule No. 1.

Do nothing with money until you have spoken to a L. If it looks controlling it will go against you. You can advise that you want her shareholding to change to the same salary but not a controlling shareholder - which is probably what it is. Ultimately, Post D, you could wind it up with a different co (almost identical name etc) and have a clean sheet but for now. Speak to L first.

In terms of rules around the house. I would be tempted to say, you can restrict yourself to whatever bathroom etc, but this is my house and I will treat it as such. I respect you and I expect you to respect me if you wish to live here.

Observation on some quotes:

Quote:
Basically said I had treated her like a PoS for the last 6 years, said I was trying to dictate and control, and that she wasn't going to put up with me treating her like cr@p and telling her that she had to stop A before I would work on anything.


This is gaslighting. Ignore it all apart from the bit in bold. It might have been a good idea to say okay, what do you want me to work on. You could have done a quid pro quo and see if she worked on any of hers. Sadly however, I expect she is just trying to manipulate a control position. e.g. you ask her to do something (not contact OM) she is saying you don't control me, you can do something for me first (IDK what). She would see you doing this and then feel One Up (you being One Down). Basically, this is all about control.

Quote:
She said she wouldn't sleep next to a (insert c-bomb here) and that she would be the bigger man and move room. She says she is switching bathrooms - the ensuite will now be the boys (it was previously the girls) and the boys would have to use the ensuite, as she wouldn't mop up pee after us and it was disgusting.


She wants to try and control again. "I" will move (I will do it not you dictating), "I" will be a man ("You are not"). It's all control and undermining. I am sure you see this. Does she expect you to think that this is normal. Blokes and kids miss the toilet. It's a fact. Yes, be careful, but it happens. Do all M's sleep in a separate room with a separate bathroom for this reason. Yes of course they do - my ar5e. Control.

Quote:
So she says she is giving up 'her room' and 'her bathroom'. She couldn't stay in there with me as it would end up in a violent confrontation and she would need to put locks on and that was no way to live.


"She is" - statements of control. You must read the Verbally Abusive Relationship. You will need lots of ink in your pen. Forget what others say about reading and doing etc. You read this book and now. You need to be able to define what is happening to you and really understand it before you can react. I suggest your objectives are:

1 - No confrontations - you are getting the hang of it; practice makes perfect but just walk away/put the phone down

2 - Read the book!!!

3 - Change all bank account etc passwords, this is good practice in any event and you can argue this is the reason for it in any event.

4 - See a L

5 - Keep doing what helps keep your 'head'. She is going to try and push you off course and you will not believe the tricks she will pull. DO NOT forget Rule No 1.

The underlined part, above, is concerning. I believe she may either become violent or try to make you sufficiently angry to be violent. Either way its an intimidating position. Keep your cool.

You will see from the book that WW's rarely change and mostly they escalate their behaviour until violence occurs (my W left soon after she could not control herself and had a violent outburst). You may need to start recording her when spewing etc. Read the book, it will give you guidance.

Quote:
She was accusing me of trying to dictate things and control everything.


This is projection. She has a controlling nature. She knows and does not like it. When she feel the control and anger she is not comfortable and takes it out on you - projects it. I kind of think of Harry Potter having a bit of Voldermort in him. The person with the projected part in them is the enemy as the Abuser hates that horrible part of them that they project into the victim. You are the Victim not the Abuser - but she hates the way she feels, her actions and the way she is treating you. But she can't control it. There is possibly anger addiction going on too.

Quote:
I tried to remain detached and not engage, give validation where I could, but it is difficult.


"There is no try, only do" - Yoda....seriously. Try all you want but if you do not abide by Rule 1, it could end up really nasty - even prison for you if she gets her way. I think if you were to be goaded into violence (and she will really try this) it would be her meal ticket. You must not ever, confront her.

Quote:
told her I love her, but I am letting her go. I can't control her and don't want to control her.


Good, but drop the I love you statement. Also, now show her you are letting go (not of her but of the emotional attachment), be aloof, go out and have fun, just GAL.

Quote:
She said there would need to be rules in the house
. I would say happy to listen to her about rules at some point but rules are mutually agreeable, if not, then don't expect others to follow them. She is trying to dictate and control again. Don't let her. Be calm, if needs be, let her say her bit. Go calm down and perhaps drop in your statement a couple of days down the line when she is calm.

I have stopped saying this:

Quote:
I repeated I was sorry


Used to do it all the time. It makes you look weak IMHO. Perhaps if you do its better to say I am sorry you saw it that way. Don't take any blame if you have done no wrong!

Quote:
She also made comment about the study becoming my bedroom - as in that wouldn't be best if we decided to sell the house. Then she said it may not suit her sell the house, it may not be best for her and her children, if we separate. I said currently we would have to live in the same house as it was not financially viable to have separate houses.


This comment is testing the water, lining you up to say she expects to keep the house. You do not leave the house - even if it gets nasty. You could, but I don't think you should after this. She will spew as this is her goal. She will say at some point "Either you go or we go (My W added or we go to stay at MILs), which is it?". I just calmly said something like, "It sounds like you have at least 2 options then if you don't want to stay. This is your path, it's not my place to make decisions that would drastically change your life and the kids for the worse. I then walked off." She nearly set on fire I recall.

Look. Times are hard mate but things will improve in the New Year (but it may get a fair bit worse first). I expect your W may make a play for the house, may move out etc. Living in separate rooms for 2 years can count as separation also so it might be a longer slog! Separation sufficient to D that is. I did the whole 2 years and more. She sent me a D letter which said we were separate. I contested her letter by saying, that's untrue, we eat dinner together every night. She may not be aware of this so do things together still. Cook dinner every night if she does not, if she does, eat it together. At some point she might stop all eating together, washing etc i.e. anything for you to be totally separate. My W did this. Thing is OM is not going to hang around for 2 years is he!!!

When I found out about OM I put a tracker in the car - had a spare iphone so did find my iphone. Not saying you should do this, but I would consider it. Why, because if you catch her in the 'act' with OM you can push for a D. I couldn't prove anything, only she went to the town where he lived (whilst me, the kids and MIL and FIL were having a family time meal out!!!). I know this is all very different to MWD's approach, but I do think you will find that your W is an Emotional Abuser and the book will trigger a lot of alarms. I don't believe there is any way back for them. Sorry.

I expect your W may not have ML with OM but she will work towards it IMHO. Women offer sex to get love. She may be doing this with words or even doing fairly graphic things online with him now. Either way, none of this matters as she has an OM (you know this) and she is currently involved with him. It is an A. The method of cheating is irrelevant.

Protect yourself and your kids and remember, your W is not the enemy. Her upbringing is. She is not a bad person, she is just a mixed up child that has not been able to mend herself.

Surfer.


M46/W40/D8/S6/T20/M12/Separated 6/2016,W takes kids
Issues2009
Wpartying w/g.f's2013on
EA2013PAdeniedWleavesMBR
ImeetAP/EAhalts
VariousBDDates
MFCourse
WSpew
EAresumes I halt
Wrages
DBIng4/2016




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Originally Posted By: Surfer
Quote:
I repeated I was sorry


Used to do it all the time. It makes you look weak IMHO. Perhaps if you do its better to say I am sorry you saw it that way. Don't take any blame if you have done no wrong!

Just my 2 cents here. Work hard on never using the word Sorry. It establishes guilt and control. If you accidentally drive over her cat, then say "Sorry" but beyond that unless you are actually "Sorry" don't say it.

I'm Canadian and it's part of our DNA to say "sorry" so I know how hard it is to avoid especially when you are being confronted and talked down to.

I dare you to say "Svcks to be you" instead laugh


On BD
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T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Originally Posted By: Woke_Up
Originally Posted By: PatientMan

I don't want to muddy up the waters of advice you are receiving, but I can get you started on an action plan if you like.

-PM


PatientMan - That would be very much appreciated, thanks - I will take any help I can at this stage. This seems to be the key thing to learn, with traditional DB'ing, with Tough Love as per Sandi, with everything.

And I am nowhere near getting it yet.


There are two things to start off with - both are easy to type and difficult to master:

1) Read Sandi's 37 rules EVERY DAY, multiple times if you need to (whatever it takes to be living them out of habit).
2) Do not react to her emotionally AT ALL. You are cool as a cucumber, always.

Let me know how you progress with this and we will move on from there. If you have any questions feel free to ask for the reasoning, but I do find that the more "why" you know, the more ammunition you give your mind to justify behavior that doesn't coalesce with your goals.

-PM


M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
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Thanks PatientMan

I will start with that.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,126
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In all fairness I did kind of "cheat" in that I stuck all of Sandi's 37 rules into one guideline smile , but - regardless- when you begin to live these rules out so much so that you discover you are having to think about what to do less and just doing it more, you will also discover you are emotionally more stable and happier than you have been in a while.

Naturally, detaching from a spouse is difficult (as it should be), but not having your general sense of well-being tied to how a single other person interacts with you brings along with it a sense of liberation. This should not be confused with moving PAST your spouse, but moving FORWARD - engaged in life and ready for whatever is in store. It is not just the knowledge that you are going to be okay in the future no matter what happens, but the feeling that comes along with it...a sense of peaceful strength that is sourced from your core and radiates out of you.

-PM


M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
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Originally Posted By: Surfer
Woke_Up
Don't make it easy but Rule No.1 (forever whilst you live together). NO ENGAGING IF SHE IS ESCALATING/RAGING/DISRESPECTING!!! Rule 2. Never fall foul on Rule No. 1.


Gotcha. Difficult. Last night she decided she was going to get drunk. Then asked me to come and have a glass of wine. I had 1, nursed very slowly. The conversation started with her saying "I miss you, BUT you have to stop being Victor Meldrew" - you can imagine the rest, more history re-writing, gaslighting. I managed not to engage, tried to validate without it degenerating into arguments or me having to leave. Didn't say sorry once. At one point I said this conversation is going nowhere and is getting pointless - it was heading towards personality deconstruction - her favourite technique. I did use Windsor Davies in my head, thanks for that smile

Quote:
Do nothing with money until you have spoken to a L. If it looks controlling it will go against you.


Makes sense, and I did read about appearing too controlling by cutting off all finances.

Quote:
In terms of rules around the house. I would be tempted to say, you can restrict yourself to whatever bathroom etc, but this is my house and I will treat it as such. I respect you and I expect you to respect me if you wish to live here.


That's a good way of dealing with it. I think what you say about taking time to think on what she says and then come back to it would also work, as thinking on feet when trying to keep emotions out of it is still difficult for me at this stage.

Quote:
Observation on some quotes:

Basically, this is all about control.


Yeah, I get that - and it is one of the fundamental issues with our R, irrespective of where we are at now with the EA.

Quote:
You read this book and now. You need to be able to define what is happening to you and really understand it before you can react. I suggest your objectives are:

1 - No confrontations - you are getting the hang of it; practice makes perfect but just walk away/put the phone down

2 - Read the book!!!

3 - Change all bank account etc passwords, this is good practice in any event and you can argue this is the reason for it in any event.

4 - See a L

5 - Keep doing what helps keep your 'head'. She is going to try and push you off course and you will not believe the tricks she will pull. DO NOT forget Rule No 1.


Good plan, thanks for the pointers. Banks are OK, as separate accounts anyway and business account is not accessible by her.

Quote:
The underlined part, above, is concerning. I believe she may either become violent or try to make you sufficiently angry to be violent.
Yeah, that's my worry.

You will see from the book that WW's rarely change and mostly they escalate their behaviour until violence occurs (my W left soon after she could not control herself and had a violent outburst). You may need to start recording her when spewing etc. Read the book, it will give you guidance.

Quote:
She was accusing me of trying to dictate things and control everything.


Quote:
This is projection... There is possibly anger addiction going on too.


I haven't read on this yet, but from what you have said on this and other threads, I believe you are right. Thinking back, there are so many occasions where an argument has come out of nowhere, escalated into a blazing row, usually ending with her in the 'one up' position, or a draw at best, almost never with me in the one up position. Then next day, calm, affection, back to normal. Until the cycle repeats.

Quote:
I tried to remain detached and not engage, give validation where I could, but it is difficult.


"There is no try, only do" - Yoda....seriously. Try all you want but if you do not abide by Rule 1, it could end up really nasty - even prison for you if she gets her way. I think if you were to be goaded into violence (and she will really try this) it would be her meal ticket. You must not ever, confront her.

Quote:
Quote:
told her I love her, but I am letting her go. I can't control her and don't want to control her.


Good, but drop the I love you statement. Also, now show her you are letting go (not of her but of the emotional attachment), be aloof, go out and have fun, just GAL.
Got it. I have stopped proactively saying it. She sometimes still tells me. Like this morning, she was being affectionate again, and asked me if I still loved her or words to that effect.

Quote:
I have stopped saying this:

Quote:
I repeated I was sorry


I'm noticed this and am working on it. Didn't quite have the nerve to use AndrewP's suggestion last night, but came close smile

Quote:
This comment is testing the water, lining you up to say she expects to keep the house. You do not leave the house - even if it gets nasty.


Yes, I understand that. I've made it clear that it isn't financially viable for me to move out and still pay for everything, so in house separation is only possibility at the moment.

Quote:
Look. Times are hard mate but things will improve in the New Year (but it may get a fair bit worse first). I expect your W may make a play for the house, may move out etc. Living in separate rooms for 2 years can count as separation also so it might be a longer slog! Separation sufficient to D that is.


This is where my sitch differs, as we are engaged but never got round to getting married. Both of us have been married before and didn't see the need to rush it. So there is no D. Only separation and then splitting of finances etc. Now, I know that OM is not around, as he lives in the States. However, I also know that he has got himself a passport, and she has been looking at flights, so I suspect at some point they will arrange to meet. I have made it clear to W that she will not have my permission to take D out of the country. If she has done her research she will know that she needs this, as I have parental responsibility. I also said I wouldn't let OM near my daughter, and that was why I had saved some of his messages to her where he was threatening to 'give me an ass whopping' smile I'm not particularly worried on this front, and TBH it was mainly bravado on my part, as I don't know whether i could keep him away, but it did get her worried that her little plans may not be plain sailing.

Quote:
Thing is OM is not going to hang around for 2 years is he!!!


As there is no D, 2 years doesn't come into it - however they have now been in contact for 8 months, so I guess he is waiting for something. I'm beyond worrying about that issue now, as if he is stupid enough to believe the lies she is spinning him then I guess it will all come out in the end.

Quote:
When I found out about OM I put a tracker in the car - had a spare iphone so did find my iphone. Not saying you should do this, but I would consider it. Why, because if you catch her in the 'act' with OM you can push for a D.


Again, not going to be an issue, although I did the whole paranoid spy thing, and was amazed by what hacking skills I developed in a very short space of time. Kali Linux and Youtube tutorials are a potent combination.

I know this is all very different to MWD's approach, but I do think you will find that your W is an Emotional Abuser and the book will trigger a lot of alarms. I don't believe there is any way back for them. Sorry.

Quote:
I expect your W may not have ML with OM but she will work towards it IMHO. Women offer sex to get love.
I agree this may be on the cards once one of them decides to make the trip.

Quote:
She may be doing this with words or even doing fairly graphic things online with him now.
Yeah, that has been done, discovered that fairly early on.

Quote:
Either way, none of this matters as she has an OM (you know this) and she is currently involved with him. It is an A. The method of cheating is irrelevant.
This I know. The pain I felt at the discovery and ongoing was unimaginable. Only since discovering this forum, and some other similar self help methods, in the last 2 or 3 weeks, have I actually had any semblance of rationality. She continues to deny this. Likes to deny it is an affair, call it a friendship, buts little rabbit ears "inverted commas" around the word affair when she says it, and often tells me it could be worse, she could be in a PA. However I have told her that if it was a PA, I would have separated. I am clear on that as a boundary. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't work for a reconciliation at some point in the future, just that I wouldn't be subject to that in my own home.

Quote:
Protect yourself and your kids and remember, your W is not the enemy. Her upbringing is. She is not a bad person, she is just a mixed up child that has not been able to mend herself.


Wise words. Thank you. One day, I will buy you a beer, which will in no way repay the gratitude I feel, but hell, we're men, and it's beer.

Now, time to find some space to read the book.


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 291
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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
[quote=Surfer]
Quote:
I repeated I was sorry


I dare you to say "Svcks to be you" instead laugh


Thanks bud... I nearly did last night, but chickened out.. she was drunk, wouldn't have been pretty smile


--
Me: 47 WW: 35
SS: 17 D: 5
T: 7 yrs Engaged: 2 yrs
OEA confirmed: August 17 2016 ongoing since April 2016.
OEA continues (with occasional breaks)
BD2 - W says will visit OM in Jan 18
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