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#2719931 12/08/16 02:00 PM
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Lost in the woods - Camp 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2719407&page=1

The pertinent details are mainly in my signature line. I had been thinking of listing all my past threads but that would just be depressing.

To save you the visitor from having to read back, W had actually reached out to me once last week to talk but then ducked down her squirrel hole again after what I felt was a very positive visit.
She has gone very quiet at least in anything that I can see. She said that she is looking for an IC, has lost a lot of weight and at least then looked very stressed and depressed. I did get a hug but she was very carefully physically distant from me otherwise. I like to think that she liked the "me" that she met last week and remembers him fondly - no clue if that is true or not though. No clue either if she is even considering a reconciliation - I believe she walked into that coffee shop expecting to be moving forward with a divorce.

While I know very little for sure I believe that the A is over at least for now. It may start up again - no way of telling and I've been wrong about this before. I have less fear of W filing for divorce, in part because I have less fear and also because she seemed relieved when we talked and I brushed aside her tentative questioning on dividing things up. Again - no way to know for sure. I'll continue to wear clean underwear and check the mail regularly.

During our visit we talked about the stuff W had left behind and how I had boxed much of it up. Today would have been the first most reasonable date for W to have stopped by to pick it up. That hasn't happened. No clue why.

I continue to get mentally stronger and am living my life presuming that she's never coming home. I continue to keep generally quiet about the separation and especially the affair. People are slowly finding out on their own over time.

I have no tough decisions to make at this point and am going to ride with the status quo for the time being. The plan is to continue to not contact W but to be open to her contacting me.

My Christmas shopping is almost done, the decorations are up and I may pick up some egg nog. But I do feel that this will be a long, cold, dark winter but I used the 2X4s to build myself a nice snug cabin and the wood pile is pretty full.


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Hi Andrew,

I love the cabin, all warm and cozy. I'm glad you've decided not to file in January.

I see no point.....budge up then and pour me some eggnog smile

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Mmmmm egg nog. I highly recommend finding some farm fresh eggs and making it old-school raw.


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP

I have no tough decisions to make at this point and am going to ride with the status quo for the time being. The plan is to continue to not contact W but to be open to her contacting me.


Hi Andrew

That it the best place to be. Don't think about it. I know it's tough. But let her reach out. She has so much to sort out.

Love the cabin by the way. Send me the floor plans I'll make one by the lake too.


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Welcome to your new cabin AP. I look forward to visiting and egg nog is my favourite drink of the season.

I love where you are at currently AP especially your decision to not take steps towards D in the new year. That initial meeting may spark some interest in your W but you are doing well to not call her to meet again (unlike needy, impatient me!).

I think the winter is going to be a good time to hunker down in the warmth and coziness of your home and give some of those wounds time to heal. I like to think that we have buried our hearts in the soil like bulbs and will leave them dormant until the warm spring sunshine warms the soil so we can bloom again! Sorry a bit too mushy for this time of the morning!!

Have a great weekend!!


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Thanks for the visits everyone. I haven't done my shopping yet so no eggnog just now. I do have tea.

Nothing of big substance here, mostly just gossip and visiting.

I'm glad that Coly23 has loaned me her elastic. My wrist is sore from snapping it over and over each time that I think of contacting W. Much of me wants to invite her out for coffee or lunch and chat more but thanks to the excellent advice that I have gotten here, I am leaving her alone.

I had a nice call with D24 on Thursday. D24, her H and their various critters are doing fairly well. D24's new dog finally has her cone off and can now more freely get excited by all the squirrels that are to be found in Virginia.

I was very worried about S22. After much effort had dinner with him last night. Even in good times he often won't respond in a timely fashion to a text etc. By the end of Thursday I was about to call W to see if she had heard from him because it had been almost 2 weeks since I had. Fortunately after leaving him 2 voice-mails he finally texted me back a one line note agreeing to dinner.

Dinner with S22 was good. He seemed tense but in a generally good mood. We chatted about a bunch of things including my adventures in housekeeping. I didn't press him too much but he did say that he still has a lot of down days. I let him know that if he needed to talk to an IC that funding was not a problem and to not worry about that. That's what emergency funds are for. We talked a bit about my future plans and our planned trip to see D24 in March. I nagged him a bit to get his passport which he promised he'll do next week. I did joke to him that I didn't know what my future held but that I'd practiced flirting with a woman and that she didn't run screaming. I told him though that I wasn't about to go chasing after any 20 something bimbos and we laughed when he said that I could leave them for him. He mentioned that most women in their 50s are probably not bimbos and I responded that the one person I have met (put away the 2X4s - nothing is happening with any speed) is probably between her mid 30s to early 40s. He was a bit startled at that. I got no indication at all that he knows about the A or OM. He seemed upbeat and positive any time he talked about his mother but also still in the dark about what her future plans may be.

Christmas plans are still very up in the air. S22 says he only wants to come home for just a couple of days - I'd suggested that he come home for at least a few weeks. He said that he needed to talk to his mother about what her plans / availability was. Coincidentally with that he got a text from her asking if he had seen her Snapchat. It seems that she is in very regular correspondence with him which matches up to what D24 had said in our call about her interactions with W as well. He promised that he would let me know by Monday what his plans are. This is very different from a couple of months ago when the kids only had very brief and rare contacts with W. I believe it is daily contact at the very least now. I didn't press for details though.

W's interactions with the outside world / Facebook world continue to evolve. One of the neighbours who knows many details and has probably guessed about the A but who was thrilled when I mentioned that W and I had had coffee posted a silly thing to W's Facebook wall. She and W had a friendly interaction over it and I stayed out of it. W has also been around a couple of her old friends pre MLC leading a "normal" sort of life. The fire-starters, enablers appear to be quiet. Just after I posted on Thursday that W had gone very quiet there was a flurry of Facebook "likes" of various memes just after the neighbour reached out to her. I know that I shouldn't put any weight on these. For one thing they could be about OM (or OM2 etc) Two stood out for me:
If you can love the wrong person that much, imagine how much you can love the right person
The hardest thing is not talking to someone you used to talk to every day
Some serious elastic snapping was required after seeing these. I've suffered serious heart-burn in the past seeing these sort of things and believing they were about me when they were about OM. There could also be a completely separate life that W is leading that I can't see. My head and heart don't want to believe that but the tiny job that sits on my right shoulder whacks me with a tiny 2X4 and reminds me that I can really no know what is going on laugh

So - we'll see how it goes. There may be a chance to interact with W over the next few weeks especially during hand-overs of S22. I'll try to play it cool but warm (if that makes sense). The real indication will be after New Years to see if she comes out of her tunnel again or goes back in to play with the fairies. I haven't seen any fairies now for months though.

I can give it more time while at the same time not having any expectations.

Well - I'm about to be running late. Thanks again everyone for the visit and I will indeed pick up some eggnog and a small bottle of rum to go with it. Cinnamon or nutmeg for on top? I have to be to the bank before noon and still haven't showered. I hope you don't mind me entertaining in my flannel jammies (oooo - sexxxy!). Grocery shopping, my fresh roses and other things will fill the morning and laundry is on for the afternoon. My Christmas shopping is done so I'll wrap and mail D24's presents this afternoon. I also hope to get my Christmas cards in the mail today too. I got my first one from one of my uncles on Thursday - addressed to Mr & Mrs P - snap goes the elastic. I'm still trying to decide on how to write out the return card. I may lie and say from AndrewP and W - who knows, if I wish really hard it might become true. I do try to stamp down the hope gremlins.


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Hi Andrew,

Love the new cabin as well. Don't burn all the 2x4's - save some for me. I'm sure the social media will eat you alive if you let it. I feel lucky my H does not have accounts on any of the sites (or maybe he does now and I have just been in the dark?) My mind reading is bad enough without adding meaning to possibly random facebook likes. You may need a rubber band on each wrist? Believe me, I need them as well. My triggers may be different, but I still have the constant urge to share things with him.

A friend had a good suggestion for me. She said think of him like you would your boss at work. If you would not text, email, call etc. and tell something to your boss - don't share with H either. That has helped me to step back emotionally a little when I am tempted. Such a hard emotional habit to break after all these years of sharing every detail of our lives. But then he pops by and spends an hours chatting with me at home - throws the boss analogy out the window! smile

I am just a newbie, but think you are doing great.


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A.P.: Cinnamon AND nutmeg.

To be 22 and directionless is tough, to be sure. It's hard to watch, wanting to swoop in and save them from their young selves. Ack- Christmas cards addressed to Mr. And Mrs. Altair- oy I actually hadn't even thought of that, at all. Let's see, I guess some might get forwarded here from our old house-- he changed his forwards so I wonder where the cards will go. Come to think of it, there are some people who would send us cards that might not know of H leaving.
And, to think of a few card-senders probably just sent him one, due to my apparent ex-communication from my old life. Look at me, ruining your thread, sitting on the floor in a pile of non-existent holiday cards and and a sad piece of yarn stringing across the kitchen hallway. I'm not a baker, but can be, A.P. what holiday treat should I BAKE? I should do something fun today.


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Altair - I couldn't find the nutmeg - is just cinnamon OK? I have my own tall glass of "chicken milk" underway right now.

Nothing beats cookies both for being Christmassy and for bringing up the spirits of those who smell them and eat them. If you are struggling with energy - even the ones that come in a can with the cute Christmas scenes in them are tasty. I'm cheating for my dinner and having canned biscuits instead of home-made. I still need to get my recipes reduced in size. D24 has hooked me up with Pintrest and linked me to her recipe pins for inspiration.

You do the cards on string thing too? I use twine myself instead of yarn and then after wrap the cards up and store them away. A couple of decades of them now have accumulated. I always like to see the string of cards across the doorway into the living-room - we have double doors there. It makes me feel loved and part of the community and extended family.


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Chicken milk? is that raw egg in a glass? I have never heard such a phrase!


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Mmmm, chicken milk... Reminds me of the scene out of Meet the Fockers where Ben Stiller describes 'milking' his cat!

Sounds like your W is peeking out of the tunnel a little AP. It might be the time if the year but they've all got to start somewhere! I think I need to get another rubber band for me to use too!!

I'm happy with either cinnamon or nutmeg!


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A.P.
I will let you know when I have dates! It'll be awhile until I can plan that properly.


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I wish we could post pictures here. In Canada most things are labeled in English and French. Eggnog in French is Lait de Poule which loosely translates back as chicken milk.

Still haven't found the nutmeg but there's lots of cinnimon and eggnog (and rum) left still. Just about to pour a second glass.

I'm not sure about the tunnel peeking W - I want to believe it but I have been disappointed too many times before and I completely trust job's opinion that she's still in replay and to wait until the New Year to see what's real or not. I still do wish that we could all get together and have a "hen party" complete with chicken milk - Westo sounds like she would be a great addition to our club too. I get the feeling that unless I am screwing up rather badly that job doesn't post but I still carry her on my shoulder with her tiny 2X4 to whack me when I stray laugh

The Christmas cards are written and mostly sent. The one for D24 and her H is waiting for me to finish wrapping their presents and parcel for mailing (one stamp that way). I have one for W that may never be delivered that I wrote about some time ago.

The junk drawer is as giving as the freezer has been. So many Christmas cards that have been purchased but never used. There was a big stack from different charities that we contribute too as well so I only bought a couple of cards this year. Going through the list was a bit of a challenge. Most of the people on the list know what's going on so I could write a nice personal note thanking them for their love and support. One other group has no clue what's going on and doesn't need to know so got a "from the AndrewP family" greeting. I took a bit of a chance and sent cards to the in-laws plus people who are W's friends with messages of joy, love and wishes for happiness and in the case of W's sister health (she just had a heart attack). I feel good about doing that. From one of the charities were a number of seals including ones with a lighthouse on them. I used them for all of the more "challenging" cards. I know what that means to me even if the meaning will be lost on the recipient. If W does choose to come back it will mean that I will need to be accepted again by her friends including the fire-starters as well as her family. A card with a warm greeting is a small price to pay to perhaps put some doubt in the minds of those people that perhaps AndrewP isn't such a bad guy after-all.

Time to get my second load of laundry out, make the bed and then get my bean and beef stew (no recipe - "Adventures in Housekeeping" land here) plus biscuits ready for my dinner. Tonight's movie is Hogfather based on the novel by my favourite author Terry Pratchett. A variation of the standard Christmas Carol movie.

Sending warm thoughts out to all my friends.


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Chicken milk. How funny. Makes sense I've never seen it-- I've never been to Canada during Egg Nog time, I mean it's only here in the States for a bit, and quickly on sale come January. Right?


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Buggerit (Calm down - nothing exciting - just feeling blue).

Just finished wrapping the gifts. We re-use bags etc from year to year. So many of the tags left on the wrapping had To A Love W in her clear, fine handwriting. A few also had extra expressions of love and affection. Each one of those was a twist of the knife. Depending on what the new year brings I may just toss all of the pre-existing wrapping and start fresh. We were so very in love - I wish that I could understand what happened. A big part of me just wants to run to her apartment, get down on my knees and beg her yet again to come home. No - I'm not going to. Another part of me wishes that she would just send me a four word text - "I want a divorce".

But - the parcel to D24 and her H is on the way - guaranteed 4 days delivery. The gifts to S22 are wrapped and under the tree and I'm nearly positive that he's going to be home to unwrap them. There's also one to me from Santa - I wonder what it is .... I'll probably get a well deserved whack for this but I also left a card for W in our mailbox. I'm pretty sure she is still checking it regularly. It's the card I mentioned earlier with the AA Milne quote on it. I did not sign it with Love but did wish her a Merry Christmas.

Similarly the cards to the usual assortment of friends and relatives are all in the mail. I expect a few awkward moments when the friends and relatives who were encouraging W get a nice card from me - three firestarters in particular. I also expect some kind thoughts of me at least from MIL/FIL who have always quite liked me. I'm not sure if they are aware of OM or not - no way of telling. My thought is that if W does come back, these friends and family will be part of the package as well. W hasn't contacted me for the Christmas list - sending the cards was always something I took care of. I expect that she's not going to send any - I've been told that I'm a bit of a dinosaur for still doing that - but dinosaurs ruled the earth for millions of years and now provide me my morning omelet.

All continues quiet on the W front. She still hasn't come into the house to get her winter coats or any of the boxes that she seemed interested in when we chatted more than a week ago now. When I was out for my walk (4.75km / 1 hour in light snow) I had a vision of waking up, turning and seeing her laying there next to me again and that she had come home in the night. She still is continuing to engage with our children, neighbours and a couple of my relatives but not with her old "crowd", nor any "new crowd".

Part of what makes it tough for me here is that there are so many reminders of the life that W and I had all around me. I wish (a lot of wishing today) that I could wave this in front of W and say "Look at what we had and can have again!" - but that would be too much pressure on her. A lot of the stuff is packed up and put away but you can't erase 27 years of love and togetherness in a home without running away into a squirrel tunnel. I'm positive that she's got lots of reminders all around her in the things she took with her and in her thoughts not to mention any time she goes online.

I had an interesting chat with the lady in the bake shop yesterday. I've decided to be open about my struggles with depression and the help that I have gotten inspired by this year's Movember campaign that included that issue. Her own H struggles with depression, I recommended my IC to her and gave her the story that I knew I was broken and didn't have the skills to fix myself so I got help and that there was no shame in that. Most men in this area "tough it out". I actually suspect her H is an ideal candidate for MLC and I've seen him out of their house talking intensely on his cell phone on a few occasions. We were talking about my own depression, weight loss and I mentioned the timeline. I think I've perhaps said a bit too much and she now has more than enough to match up with the rumours and perhaps knows more about the A than I do now. She had been reaching out to W a bit and W had been quite receptive - I hope that continues but I may have jinxed it.

I also chatted today with the female half of the couple that owns the stores that W works in and lives over. I'm not sure it was a good idea or not but I did mention after she expressed sympathy about my situation that I wished that I knew what was going on. She seemed surprised that things were at least on my end up in the air - but again outside of this place what is going on is anything but normal.

Too much over-analyzing I know but it's a distraction from the buggerit mentioned above. I think that my wash is done now so it's time to get to my ironing. Beef and bean soup (again) for dinner tonight. I'm having dinner with a good friend on Tuesday and it looks like a quiet week otherwise. Time I think as well to put up the length of twine I use to hand received Christmas cards on.


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SNAP - goes the elastic.

Writing this here so that I don't send it. Yes - she undoubtedly knows this already although I worry that her guilt and fear are keeping her in her tunnel. If any of the vets are around and feel like enabling me though .....

Text message to W that I probably shouldn't send. I feel the need to reach out to her to try to get the lines of communication opening. job - please swing by with your 2X4 and give me a whack. I think I need one. The elastic doesn't always do the trick.

W - Just a reminder that if you can feel free to call or text me any time of the day or night if you want to talk or are just feeling lonely

There - it's out.

As I posted on Coly23's thread I had a nice exchange with SIL2 yesterday where she expressed the opinion that she is positive that W will want to come home but that she "will probably feel like you should not want her anymore" which sort of jives with what I saw during coffee. SIL2 also believes that OM (she has a much stronger word for him) is no longer in the picture. She also let me know that lots of women of a variety of ages find grey haired men attractive smile

Having dinner with a good friend tonight. Still no word from S22 (he promised to tell me by the end of Monday) what his Christmas plans are. He told me they were dependent on W's plans. Neither of them are great at planning so no nagging is appropriate from me at S22. He already knows that I am flexible and that he can come home any time and stay as long as he wants. With W living the next village over they can easily arrange to get together when convenient.

More and more Christmas cards are arriving, all addressed to Mr. and Mrs. P - it hurts each time one arrives. The simple card I left for W in our mailbox on Sunday was picked up yesterday - possibly by the lady who does the mail seeing it and forwarding it on to W (small village conveniences - but a violation of the law) or by W herself - no way to know. Maybe there will be a Christmas Miracle but I think I'll just look for a white Christmas and try not to hope for anything more.


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AP...I understand what you are going thru as I also want to reach out to let my W know that I want her to come home. However, will it make a difference at this point? Is she fully baked? My BD was the same time as your W leaving, so I cannot say with certainty exactly how you feel right now. Mine has only been gone for 6 weeks.

At this point I want her to know that I love her...I'm sure she does. I want her to know that I want to reconcile our M...I'm sure she does. I want her to know that I want her back...I'm sure she does.

The problem is like you said...at what point are they to embarrassed or ashamed to come back and go thru the work that needs to be done? I don't have that answer.


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SBJ - Thanks for the visit and input. My W is definitely not fully baked even though she's been gone for about 5 months now. Having her come home and finish baking here sounds great on the surface but I have had warnings from others who have been there before especially CaliGuy about that - still unsure on if it is a good idea or not for us. It didn't work out for him. There is (as far as I can tell) no craziness for quite some time and OM has (likely) been out of the picture for at least some weeks. I've been wrong about so very many things so very often though I tend to doubt the smell of my own farts some days. God grant me patience and grant it right now smile.

I agree with your "I'm sure she does" but that's in an organ that is about a foot higher up from my heart. There's a bunch of quotes that I pulled out of the readings that a lot of my thinking goes around.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2700178#Post2700178
The journey that AmyC took is to me one of the better sources for insight into the female MLC mind which from everything I can tell is rather different although similar to the male MLC

I'm reposting three of what are to me the key ones that form my thinking and my compassion.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
Why do you think she is so distant? She CAN'T deal with your emotions AND her own, Jazz. Her own OVERWHELM her. That's why she's out there, man. That's why she's lost.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
it takes balls the size of Texas to look at our LBSs and admit we were wrong - all wrong- and to ask your forgiveness when it is all we can do to stand upright in the face of the realization of what we have done.


If you haven't read through that thread, I strongly encourage you to do so - there are big nuggets of gold in there. This is the "original" posting.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741&page=all


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I have read thru it and it was eye opening...again I am also battling with the head vs heart thing and what AmyC said about the emotion thing says it all. I just hope that one day things will all work out for us all.


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Hi Andrew, I don't think the 'I want you to come home' should come from you at all. Or at least not until/unless OM has been out of the picture for a good while, she has shown true remorse and a genuine willingness to do 'whatever it takes' to rebuild, you guys have taken tentative steps to date, time has passed etc...

Please believe me that anything less than that and your 'reconciliation' is unlikely to succeed. So, I don't think you even have to worry about any of that, because if she wants back in, she will let you know in uncertain terms for sure.

I wouldn't put too much store in OM being out of the picture. In my sitch, XH and OW broke up and got back together a number of times. As far as I know, they have been together now for a good while, but in truth I know very little and have had no news of him for a couple of months now.

All of this of course is focus on your W. It's needless focus, but I understand it is hard to let go of the R for now. We all share that experience. It does take time, but filling your life with other things does help to fill that void left by her departure.

Bear in mind that the true measure of success lies in whether your life feels full and complete without her in it. When we have reached that point, it likely won't matter too much whether she does choose to turn back. And if she does, you are likely to be in a strong place in terms of knowing what does and doesn't work for you and having appropriate boundaries in place.

So, do try to thought stop when you are focusing on her. Five months is a short time in this journey, so just keep moving forwards yourself and let her be.

Hope your week is going well smile


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AP,

I am getting those cards to me W, S & D too. The drawers, boxes etc have also been as giving as the freezer. I also have been thinking about a drinks with a female friend. Not sure yet. It's just a drink after all, someone I used to work with. I think I will take it as a drink with a friend for now.

I have had the urge to call W about non kids related things. To say, 'I love you' or that sort. But I don't tend to now. Even though a good interaction can really make me happy, I try to get over that pretty quickly too.

I really agree with the not letting her come back until she has done the work side of things. My W will probably be so linked to wayward friends - for life. Like you I expect, I am borderline despising of them. But at times I think - whatever.

Done a couple of things to help out recently, mainly with the kids so legitimately I would. W has been very grateful. Vanilla let me into a pattern that I see in mine. I have adapted it to my sitch it goes:

Smarm & Manipulate: W tries to get what she wants - you take kids so I can spend time with WF's - before OM (that seems to have stopped - IDK). I pretend I don't know the game (alternatively I can call her out which just moves us to Defcon 1).

Keep Close for Her Benefit: More of the above but perhaps fewer lies. (W is presently in this stage)

Defcon 1: Rage. Usually brought about by stress and pressure or response on Smarm and Manipulate. If caused by stress conversation is futile, W will find a reason to enter Defcon 1. Validate or Exit.

Don;t know if you see patterns. W gave me leftover dinner/cooked by her yesterday. This is after a lot of thank yous. Conversation is a lot better etc it feels like changed. But I am not keeping any expectations and I suggest you don't either. Unless they make genuine changes that are consistent, they are unchanged.

Make changes for you to be the man you want to be. Don't reach out to her - keep it up. You are doing brilliantly. Also really admire that you have kept everyone else's knowledge to an absolute minimum.

Surfer.


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
SNAP - goes the elastic.

Writing this here so that I don't send it. Yes - she undoubtedly knows this already although I worry that her guilt and fear are keeping her in her tunnel. If any of the vets are around and feel like enabling me though .....

Text message to W that I probably shouldn't send. I feel the need to reach out to her to try to get the lines of communication opening. job - please swing by with your 2X4 and give me a whack. I think I need one. The elastic doesn't always do the trick.

W - Just a reminder that if you can feel free to call or text me any time of the day or night if you want to talk or are just feeling lonely

There - it's out.



Glad you only posted this here and did not send it .... so lets take a look at this, (I will do as Ur always did to me and coat the 2x4 witha blanket)

So ... its pursing on the surface right>? ... but look deeper, its also you projecting a bit. Who knows if she is wanting to talk (to you) or if she is lonely .... this is how you most likely are feeling just start to acknowledge that, face those feelings/fears

Originally Posted By: AndrewP
SBJ - Thanks for the visit and input. My W is definitely not fully baked even though she's been gone for about 5 months now. Having her come home and finish baking here sounds great on the surface but I have had warnings from others who have been there before especially CaliGuy about that - still unsure on if it is a good idea or not for us. It didn't work out for him. There is (as far as I can tell) no craziness for quite some time and OM has (likely) been out of the picture for at least some weeks. I've been wrong about so very many things so very often though I tend to doubt the smell of my own farts some days. God grant me patience and grant it right now smile.


Here is the difference. At the time my MLCr approached me it was 15 months post BD (despite warnings I would rather have her home like you said ... truth is .. I would have been better off allowing her to continue her path ... but like Jack said .. most will tell you what you should do but they have done as you are doing), she showed remorse, committed to the M and attended the 4 or so months of the Retrouville program we had a family vaca.... for about 6 months I thought she was waking up and our M would be salvaged. Even then the vets here knew she was not baked ... I knew she was not baked ... OM was out of the picture but she was still going through the OM withdrawals and about a year later I discovered contact and held to my boundary and left.

She is still not baked ... well not that I can tell because honestly I stopped watching that bot of water looking for boil bubbles. She has to do her journey on her own .... if she decides to try to salvage the M, the relationship with me I will cross that bridge when/if it happens.

If you read all of AMyC's posts (I have several times .. along with other MLCr women the trends are very similar .. I have had personal discussions with a woman MLCr like Amy, discovered she went through her own MLC only after landing on a forum like this trying to figure out what was going on with her husband .... seems broken people find broken people. Anyways .... like AMyC's story, its not just a few months ... it takes time, far to much time. I was warned not to trust much till 3 years post BD ... I just knew my story would be different .. it wasn't.


The lesson I learned ... and hope to pass on. Every MLCr is different but the same. The one thing is it takes TIME, how long?? .. .who knows .. there is no guarantee they ever wake up ... but if its true MLC its not within 6 months, not that I have seen in all I have read and I assure you though I am no expert I have read enough looking for the magic bullet that does not exist to know.

I am not trying to take the wind out of your sails, its just a long process not many have the stomach for .... seems us fellas are more guilty of this than the ladies. Some of the things that happen with MLC are very hard to accept.

So ... while we are given all this time, the best thing we can do for ourselves, our family, spouse/next partner or whoever .... is improve, become better in spite of this, allow this to make us stronger than we ever knew we could be.

When my MLCr came back .. bottom line regardless of where she was in the tunnel/baking process ... I was not strong enough to handle it. Retrospect I needed to be strong enough and I wasn't ... would it have saved her .. no. But I would not have had a 6 month set back in my journey and that's how I look at it.


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I'm going to decorate my 2x4 with some tinsel and a few bows.
Do not text her!

It seems like you are applying your logic to the situation, which is a bad idea. For example, you think she is not happy because she lives in a crappy apartment and seems to be lonely.

You can't make the jump that she would come back because you have a nice home and warm cookies waiting for her!

I am guilty of this thinking too. For me, it's like H, look at our lovely life that you left. And you'd rather wallow in your crappy noisy apartment than be here with me. Well, it turns out yes he would. As painful as it is to hear, the MLCers don't want to be with us now, maybe never. there's no point to offer your company- she doesn't want it right now! And, as in the AmyC case it probably feels smothering and horrible.

Just because we know our spouses are alone, not happy, suffering, does not mean they want to see us. It svcks but it is true. As Job would say (and she will)...just leave her be.


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
She is still not baked ... well not that I can tell because honestly I stopped watching that pot of water looking for boil bubbles.


Pulling this out for emphasis.

This is what I wish for you.

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Snapping that elastic band right along with you AP!

You did good to post your text here first. I hope by doing that and with the helpful comments it has helped to bring you down from the ceiling.

I might take on Atair's idea and decorate my elastic band with tinsel to get into the festive spirit!


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Andrew,

I'm very glad you didn't post that message to your wife. I'm not going to sugar coat my message to you...don't do it! If you send that, it will only make her more determined to stay away because it is more of the same...pursuing. Your wife already knows that you would do back flips if she came home. She knows that you want her back and she also knows that you are sitting there watching the paint harden, just thinking about her and looking for excuses to contact her. This is the hardest thing in the beginning, i.e., the no contact unless it is an absolute emergency.

Your journey has only just begun and you aren't that far along when it comes to the MLC time table. It takes a lot of time and space for them to heal and yes, to miss you and what you had. You don't want to come off as pursuing or looking needy...so find something to do and leave her alone for now. If and when she's ready, she'll contact you...but you need to leave well enough alone for now.

As for the cards and well wishes, people don't know the situation and the less they know for now, the better. Just put the cards away and know that things will get better for you as you continue your own journey. I know you desperately want her home, but believe me, you don't want her back if she's not fully baked. They can create a lot of heartache when they aren't baked up. If you need to be reminded of this, got to LouR's thread and see what happened in her situation.

You do not want her back unless she's fully baked and ready to do the hard, necessary work of healing and being a partner to you 100%.

Continue moving forward and keep the focus on you.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thank you everyone for taking the time to visit and the kind words. It never ceases to amaze me how the troops can gather around here. Just to be clear - I wasn't asking her to come home, just to call me and start the communication. I now am firmly in the camp that there will be no miracle with her suddenly standing on my doorstep with tears in her eyes begging to come home. Reconnecting will take time but has to start somewhere with talking at the least. - I was just trying to nudge it along.

I think that those of us with "vanisher" MLCers such as myself, Coly23 and Altair are jealous of the contact that you others get - as painful as that contact may be. I was looking at this message as trying to open up the lines of communication - perhaps a bit more forcefully than is recommended. She does know where I live, she knows of at least 4 different ways to contact me, she knows that I love her, she knows that I have not abandoned her, she knows (probably) that I would accept her back and forgive her. She also knows (I believe) that I am getting very tired of waiting and am living as if she's never coming back.

Sotto - Yes - indeed I "worry" about OM coming back. A depressed person could very well reach out and cling to someone who has given them happiness and comfort. Silly of me perhaps to jump around waving my arms saying "pick me" "pick me"! My life has indeed been pretty good lately and I do feel mostly complete in myself. Until "coffee date" I think I only reached out to D24 with a "feeling the lonely - hug please" once in the couple of months preceding (she's great about sending those right back digitally - no questions asked). My actual "Plan A" as of about 3 months ago was for her and OM to marry, get me off the hook in any settlement and allow me to walk into the sunset, head held high. What I may have written here may have sounded somewhat different but that was indeed where my head was actually at.

Surfer - With my narrow window it's hard to see patterns and I also have a built in doubt about anything that I do see. I don't know if vanisher MLCers cook up differently than your sort. You've certainly had a tough going of it. With the kids moved out and being alone it has allowed me to work on myself perhaps more continuously than if there had been kids and contact involved. I'm pretty impressed with your own stamina and fortitude. Your W may change directions again. I believe that many of my W's enabling friends have been shed or fled. None of whom were wayward themselves. They just encouraged from the safety of their own relationships - no skin in the game.

CaliGuy - I really appreciate the blanket coating. You've got a nice touch. I still feel the concussions from non-cushioned whacks which have made me skittish. You are exactly right - my motivation is probably more around me being lonely and hopeful than anything else. Definitely projecting my feelings on an absent W and wanting to shove things along. I've certainly not read everything that AmyC posted - she was quite the monumental figure here in her day - I'm glad she's doing well. One thing that I try not to do but do anyway is the whole "timeline" thing. I continue to be surprised as is everyone around me that I am still standing and TBH if she hadn't contacted me when she did I probably wouldn't be by early next year. How much longer can I hold out? I really don't know. I was at the end of my rope recently until this contact and possible change in her situation had me grip it again.

darknes - I know - Thanks for the more gentle tap this time. It's a tough balance and perhaps a fine line between moving forward / moving on. I struggle with that and as you know, knowing that my W is out there hanging on to her end of the rope is what keeps me standing. Perhaps not the healthiest of motivations from where you sit, but it's what works for me right now and has for a while. If she did completely vanish / disconnect I'd probably wander off aimlessly through the woods for a short while and then go looking for someone else.

Altair / Coly23 - Thank you so much for the visit and the festive decorations. I didn't expect either of you by. Altair - yes - my tiny "job on the shoulder" did indeed say a variation of "leave her be". Second or third guessing is second nature to us. Are we doing the "right" thing for ourselves, are we doing the "right" thing for reconnecting with our spouses, this "feels right" should I do it ... and then the spinning goes. At least I got this out. The response has been rather overwhelming. I will snap that elastic some more and at least pretend to not be waiting for her to call. Perhaps I can make that the reality.


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BD-9-Mar-16
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I echo what everyone else has said.........no sending that text!

Just leave her be Andrew. I can honestly say that if and when H wants to come back, for me, I will have to know deep in my heart he wants to and is truly sorry.

And.........the R with OW will have to had been well and truly over for a long time, both in his heart and head.

Nothing less will do. If she wants you, she knows where you are and she also knows you love her.

It's an awful time of the year, but we will get thorough it. I don't know what next year will bring, but I'll be glad to see the back of this one.

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Westo - I couldn't agree more. Facebook has this "highlights of 2016 video" thing that I keep getting prompted to run and that many of my FB friends have done. I really don't want to think about 2016 at all - I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined what this year has been. Even though BD was in March the A started (I believe) in January and there was a lot of stress and tension around the house.

job - I hadn't read your post when I pressed submit on mine so I'm not ignoring you <smile>. I do indeed recall LouR's sitch and how it turned out for her. CaliGuy's 3 years after BD before they come home timeline is plain just depressing. I hope I misread that but I really feel like throwing the towel in whenever I think of that. I've been at this for the better part of a year already with W's MLC probably hitting it's stride almost exactly 3 years ago which at the time I put down to empty nest and menopause and the stress of her nearly losing both her parents within days of each other (they got better - but it was life-changing). W's affair was a symptom of her replay at that time I believe, not the beginning of the whole crisis. Starting out I would have thought I could have lasted no more than a couple of months and well, that was quite some time ago from my own perspective.

I had dinner last night with a good friend who was actively pushing me yet again to file and find someone else. I hear this all around me. Please - no "you're not ready" commentary. I've heard that already and I'm not here looking for dating advice - I'm here to save/rebuild my marriage. When we were most of the way through dinner I pressed to find out how he was doing. I felt horrible because he himself was struggling with a number of issues and here we had devoted so much time to me.

Good thing I'm alone - I'm breaking down all over again with despair. I just want to be loved - is that too much to ask of the world? If someone has something hopeful or positive to write that doesn't say GAL, join a gardening club or any other platitudes it would be very welcome today.

On the one hand I know that most of the people who end up here never do reconcile and that most of them have given up on that long before the amount of time that I've put in already, especially the men. And if you consider that the people that end up here are probably already more committed to saving their marriage than the larger majority that don't come here it makes me wonder if I am some sort of crazy myself. I do believe in my heart that I am W's ONE best option even if she doesn't see it. I also believe in my heart that if I am patient that she will indeed turn back to me and make our family whole again. Perhaps it is arrogance, perhaps it is a delusion. To many who are reading, I may still look relatively young nearing 53 years old. Am I to wait until I am 70 before I can be happy again?

I'm doing my level best to "be the lighthouse" as we are taught and it's something that I think I'm pretty darned good at because that's naturally who I am. I can intellectually understand the requirement for the lighthouse to stay put and not go running all along the shore looking for people to save. I know that it's not the stated philosophy of this board but doesn't "loving them home" mean shining a light of peace and safety? I am also regularly told on my thread that as long as W believes that this place exists that she's going to stay off in Fairy Princess Land if by that you mean sitting alone in her apartment with no friends, afraid to go out and horrified that people will find out what she's done. Yes - perhaps that's mind-reading but the evidence backs it up.

Well - enough of this. I'm sitting here in my home office with a cat sleeping at my side and hearing on the radio that the snow squalls that I see outside my window are closing down roads and events all over the area. A good night to nest up with a good book and some comfort food I think. If the power goes out I have all the usual emergency supplies. There's something comforting about being safe and secure while the storms rage all around. I hope that this post doesn't bring out the crowds who try to "fix" me often demanding that I become an idealized manly man - Clark Gable's Rhett Butler is sometimes used as an example. I don't like Rhett and his character describes himself as a broken person not fit for a normal relationship. Perhaps that sort of person is attractive to a certain sort of woman but I really don't want Scarlet in my life.


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Andrew ... thing is ... its all out of our control right? That was the first hard brutal lesson I had to learn, I am a guys guy ... I run a company, I worked my way up to this position but I also hold true to my roots ... I have a Snap-on tool box IN .. yes IN my office that has a nice view. Why is that massive tool box there? I use it as a reminder, people come in and see its totally out of place in an office but it sends the message I have done it ... fixed it and know BS when I hear it ..... For me its a brutal reminder no matter how big/nice/stocked my tool box is I could never fix her or the marriage.

Often times here people get stuck on timelines ... again raising my hand .. GUILTY... MLC takes as long as it takes, the LBS journey too takes as long as it takes ... some take to DBing and doing it by the book with ease, others kick and scream the entire way but eventually start seeing the lessons and results do pay off over TIME. I recall telling myself .. if she isnt back by June I am done ... ok ok .. November, well lets get through the year .... then I realized she will be done when she is done. The true tragedy is if the crisis ruins more than just one life, I had a kid to worry about ... then over time I started to realize I was important too. I had to save me.

You are still early in the phases, but do try to start looking inward at things you can improve on .. when you decide to drop rope and move on is actually the one thing in your control and you will know when/if that time comes. That in itslef is empowering and should give you a sense of having some kind of control in all this. Its been said here often .. I may give up, but not today. This is your choice.


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Good thing I'm alone - I'm breaking down all over again with despair. I just want to be loved - is that too much to ask of the world? If someone has something hopeful or positive to write that doesn't say GAL, join a gardening club or any other platitudes it would be very welcome today.

On the one hand I know that most of the people who end up here never do reconcile and that most of them have given up on that long before the amount of time that I've put in already, especially the men. And if you consider that the people that end up here are probably already more committed to saving their marriage than the larger majority that don't come here it makes me wonder if I am some sort of crazy myself. I do believe in my heart that I am W's ONE best option even if she doesn't see it. I also believe in my heart that if I am patient that she will indeed turn back to me and make our family whole again. Perhaps it is arrogance, perhaps it is a delusion. To many who are reading, I may still look relatively young nearing 53 years old. Am I to wait until I am 70 before I can be happy again?



AP...It is this time of year...emotional time for sure. We want to be with our spouses that "we" love dearly.

I am with you about the GAL stuff, but isn't that what takes our minds off of our life at hand? I totally respect that you are standing for your M and I am hoping that I have the strength and courage to do the same even though my W has filed and seems to want to push it thru fast.

I think I read earlier somewhere that CaliGuy said he was 95% done with his M, but that 5% is what is keeping him hanging on...we have to have faith.

As others have said before it is up to us to when we either drop to rope or totally decide to move on. At that point it is out of our hands as to what our W's decide to do...isn't it in their hands anyway?

Our W's know that we love them and want to reconcile our marriages, so it is up to them to make the next move. I guess it is just like whitetail hunting...once you set up you blind you just have to sit and wait. I guess patience is the key.

My prayers have changed over the last several months...I have moved from prayers of reconciliation to that of strength, wisdom, patience and courage.


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AP,

Quote:
If someone has something hopeful or positive to write that doesn't say GAL, join a gardening club or any other platitudes it would be very welcome today.


Think of a really sh!t time in your life before. At the time it was the end of the world. It wasn't you dealt with it and had love in your heart after. That will happen again my friend. I know 100%. So get over yourself (I mean this in the kindest way and in the way a friend that understands would say this) and march on. You are bigger than this. You really are. Take a step back and look at what an amazing fella you are!

Surfer.


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A.P.:

Snowman-making club? Just kidding.
Seems like all this news and talk of W has got you in bit of an emotional tailspin.
You know what I did the other day when I felt super-down? I got a massage. You should find a nice lady-masseuse to give you one. A little human touch could make you feel a lot better.
Hang in there. Shortest day of the year coming up quick, and then after that, it's all longer, brighter days!


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Hi Andrew, it is difficult to see and spend time with our spouses for sure. I can recall the last time I spoke with XH by phone 18 months or so ago. For years we spoke by phone every day if he was away. When we did speak, his voice was intensely familiar - and yet I also knew so little about him and the life he was living. I feel pretty steady now - though I imagine I would spin a little if I actually saw him (which I haven't done for over 2 years..)

The reaction you had to seeing your W is perfectly understandable and also you are still at a relatively early stage in this journey - which may not be what you want to hear - but things do take a while to unfold.

In terms of your comments about GAL - as you know I have joined many new things and met many new people. That may not be for everyone, but I don't think mentioning GAL or joining something are glib platitudes. Rebuilding your own life independently of your spouse is a really important aspect of this process. Finding new things to fill the void left by our spouses departure, really helps us move forward.

I think the fundamental thing to ask ourselves is this. If my spouse were never to return - and I were happy and healed in that regard - and I have also chosen not to date just yet - and I feel happy in my life just now....what does that life look like? How are you spending your time? With whom? What brings you genuine joy and gives your life meaning? How are your needs for social contact and connection met?

Once we have really thought about these things, we can start making plans now to create that life for ourselves...whatever our spouses may be doing..

Xx


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We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Andrew,

This time of the year is very difficult and we all have our bad days. Where we are done with this crap. I am 9 years in, over my ex, and I still have my downs. I am in one now. But we do know those go away. We can wallow in them a bit, but then we pick our selves up and move forward.

I don't know if I ever told you this about me. I was 27 with a newborn when my ex decided to have an affair and leave me. And it was bomb drop and that night, he was literally leaving me. No time period, no nothing, he was out the door. This was after dealing with his infertility, IVF for me, surgery for him, a high risk pregnancy, a NICU stay for our baby, and he was having an A. Needless to say I was devastated. Completely and utterly devastated. I wanted to die for quite some time. I wasn't suicidal, but I wanted to die. I had hoped when I was driving home from my night shift at work in the morning a truck would just take me out. It was the most intense pain I ever felt. moreso than my own mother's suicide when I was 21.

I was an awful awful DB'er in the terms of what to do with my spouse. I was angry. In a 2 year time frame, I moved a few times, I was raising a baby mostly on my own, I was dealing with my ex's A- he moved in with her, got engaged, and then subsequently married to her. I was establishing my role as a mother with another woman I wanted to beat the crap out of in my daughter's life.

But all I knew is I had to be there for my daughter. I had to be the best mom I could be, because it was all up to me. And God, I love that kid. She saved my life.

But what you called "platitudes" GAL, actually saved my life. I stopped hiding from my friends, and I embraced them and they embraced me. I took up kickboxing. I can't begin to tell you how that saved me. The GAL which you think is so silly saved my life, and saved the mother of my daughter. The mental and physical health took me out of my depression.

it may not work for everyone, although I have seen it help in about 90% of the cases here.

personally, right now, I am depressed. But I joined this gym where we are a community and friends, and I know that 45 min I am there with them, there is no depression, and I take it with me.

So when someone suggests it, or even pushes it a little, it's not to change you or make you become someone you are not, because you are no good as you are. It's because it's been pretty much proven to help many people around here who were on the brink.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you, but please, understand, it saved a lot of us from a very very dark place. It's not silly or drivel.

I love Sotto's suggestion of living your life as if she isn't coming home and there it's just you without a girlfriend. What would that look like? It doesn't mean you threw in the towel to live like that. It just means you are living YOUR life, and that is however you think it looks to you. Then, if they comeback, or go again, your life is still your life as you see it and feel comfortable in.

We are all in the same boat here. Whether 30 years of marriage, 4 years of marriage,empty nest, kids at home, 9 years down the line, or 5 months down the line. We have all been there, we have all felt fed up. Angry, sad.

No one is an enemy. No one ever means badly on these boards. I have made some of my best friends from here. You may dislike me and what I have to say, but some of those you really have respect for are my IRL friends I consider like family. They pushed me, 2x4'd me, loved me, hugged me, loved me. And loved my daughter.

We are all in the same boat here and you do whatever you need to do to keep it afloat.

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Andrew,

I don't post often but I do read and catch up. And sadly, the newbie stories sometimes make me want to cry. And I am sure I am not alone.

You have received stellar advice. Everyone is correct-this time of year is sooooo very difficult for many. We are bombarded with messages of "family" and "love" and some days you want to crawl under a rock. I think we all relate.

Everyone is correct. If someone is in MLC, they don't have epiphanies. It is a slow, arduous, and crazy process. However, the one constant is you. Regardless of what your x wife does, you still have to live your life. And you should enjoy it. Focus on the little stuff that makes you happy. Do you like to take walks? Write? run? Train for something? Read? Grab a drink with friends? Take a class? Life doesn't stop because your W is on the crazy train. Don't let her sell you a seat on that very painful ride. Me? I love animals. So whenever, I am out with my kids on a walk or by myself, I stop and talk to all of the dog owners. It makes me smile. I love watching animal videos with my kids on The Dodo. Love it.

And I tell you this because I am a person who never in one billion years thought I would be divorced. My parents were married for 51 years and my xh's parents have been married for 49. 3 years ago, when I was folding laundry, my xh announced he was not "happy" and was thinking of moving out. This is coming from a man who rarely left the house. The words "separation" and "divorce" had never been uttered. To say I was shocked, is an understatement and I arrogantly thought people who got divorced "didn't try hard enough." I realize now that it takes 2 to work and 1 to end it. Tough lesson and I realize I needed to learn it. I never thought 3 years ago that I would be telling someone else that I love them and I did this morning. I continue to heal and 6 months ago, I was fortunate to meet someone. And I said that would never happen. Never say never.

However, I still struggle. It's a process and like Ginger said, you do what you have to do. Hang in there. It will get easier!



3 kids
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Andrew - If I may, in addition to all the things that have already been written about the virtues of GAL, there is one more I'd like to add.

Even if you have no interest whatsoever in learning the tango or seeing Tibet, GAL is really about getting out of your own headspace.

Very good things begin to happen when we minimize thinking about something over which we have zero control.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
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AndrewP - Wanting to be loved is not too much to ask. It's something as human beings we all want; we want and need connection. Unfortunately, our wayward spouses don't want to do it with us.

I won't tell you to GAL. All previous posters have shared their thoughts on it.

What I will share with you is what my therapist has shared with me. (And I think it has been posted here.) The only way out is through. We just have to endure. The bad days, the moments of despair, they're going to happen. Embrace it. Give yourself permission to feel it. Just don't stay there for too long. Like fish and houseguests, it starts to stink after awhile.

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Thanks everyone for taking the time to read and post and your kind words.

After dinner and cleaning out the driveway last night I went through a 6-pack, then a bottle of wine and some of the evening was a blur. I checked this morning and - yep - I had sent W a SnapChat picture of a Christmas card that had arrived from a couple that is made up of the guy who introduced us and the woman who was W's very best friend until we moved out of the city. They have no clue of what's going on and the cheerful loving greeting they wrote was tough for me to face and was another blow to me yesterday. I didn't send anything mean or nasty though at least and I didn't call which would have been truly bad. It also appears that I plowed right through an entire box of cookies too. But I did manage to get my lunch made, most of the dishes done and got about 5 hours of sleep. Lots of roads have been closed because of the snow but not the ones leading to work so I am here finishing up my lunch.

Today I just feel angry. Angry at W, angry at the world. I even yelled at the cats this morning which is something that pretty much never happens. I usually never raise my voice regardless of the provocation. Perhaps because of the too much reading that I've been doing I have a certain paranoia about dropping into a MLC myself. My IC told me that because I was worried about it that she didn't think that likely but I know that anger and depression which I have in spades at the moment are symptoms. It's almost automatic some days for me to check testicles, spectacles, marbles .... I went through these sort of cycles more often when W was still at home when regularly something would trigger a fresh round of grieving. It just caught me off-guard this time.

If only W would actually come out and say what it is that she wants. I believe her to not be capable of making that choice right now though. Through all of this she never even suggested a divorce nor marrying OM. In any of the very few talks we ever had she only talked about a separation usually with a specific time-span involved (6 months). When we talked over coffee I asked her if she knew what she wanted and she changed the subject quickly. She looked relieved when I said that if she wasn't sure that she was never coming back that I wasn't in any rush to split assets etc. As those who have been following along on the home game may remember this is all still pretty much a closely held secret by W even from family and friends, even the separation with the affair and OM being buried even deeper. While I'm not so concerned about holding these secrets any more around the community, I do still keep quiet about it generally. As I have told her before, the A is her story to tell, not mine and it's up to her to decide when or even if she is going to tell people about that. She's a naturally very private person and me spreading stories around about us not being together while it would have prevented the Christmas card pain for me still strikes me as a bad idea. I had been wondering if W had introduced OM to her parents or not - but - irrelevant. When she comes back we'll need to talk about what sort of damage control / relationship rebuilding will be required and with who.

I've re-read what CaliGuy wrote that threw me into a tailspin
Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
I was warned not to trust much till 3 years post BD ... I just knew my story would be different .. it wasn't.
Re-reading that it doesn't say that she will stay out there and lost for 3 years - she could but that's not what he wrote I believe. Re-reading it, it seems to say that for 3 years post BD that they could still dive back into replay. CaliGuy - let me know if I'm wrong please. You have a good insight and experience and I don't want to misinterpret. This would be no surprise for me. I originally posted to the MLC board all those months ago looking for tools to help me be able to deal properly with her.

Yes - she absolutely is not baked up yet nor is she ready to come home, at least the woman I saw on November 30th wasn't. I haven't heard boo from her at all since then, no visits to the house to pick up stuff, social media being more quiet than usual. I wish I knew what was going on. While I'm at it I also wish that I didn't feel so bloated from eating too many cookies.

Reading everyone's kind comments helped a lot - thank you all. Writing this out has helped too. I'm still not sure how much longer I can do this for. I do know that if I were to file for D that I would have to do all the work and that W would avoid doing anything if not be actively obstructionist. It's funny in a sad kind of way but one of the other things that has upset me is that my prior plan of W and OM getting married appears to be trashed. It would have made things much simpler for me. I'm certainly not afraid of hard work but this is the hardest thing that I have ever done.

On our apple tree beside the driveway - one that I planted from a seedling of a wild apple tree from the old family farm, there is an apple still on it. It is now wizened, black over much of it and TBH looks a bit disgusting. Every week or so I post a picture of it to SnapChat usually with a caption "still hanging on". Someone else recently posted about "signs". That apple is one of mine. I wonder how long it will continue to hang on.

(Past) Time to get back to work. S22 had told me that he would let me know by the end of Monday what his Christmas plans were - no word from him and no response to my text this morning - no surprise. I'll nag him again tomorrow I suppose. Other than this setback I've been doing pretty darned good lately and feel no urges to see Tibet although learning to Tango would be fun - I understand it takes two to do that though - perhaps one of the cats?


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Am I to wait until I am 70 before I can be happy again?


Originally Posted By: AndrewP
If someone has something hopeful or positive to write that doesn't say GAL, join a gardening club or any other platitudes it would be very welcome today.


This is the point of getting a life. You can do all sorts of awesome stuff, but it wont automatically bring your wife back. The point of GAL stuff is to address the issue in the first quote. By going out and doing things, you can prove to yourself that you dont need W to be happy. Of course you dont need to wait until you are 70 to be happy - why is it that you cant be happy by yourself?

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Hugs to AP.
I think your logic-brain is impeding your growth. I may be guilty of the same thing, so maybe I am projecting.
Allow me to appeal to your logical brain:
The LB knows that while our stories our different on this site, there are patterns that cannot be waved away. Predictable patterns of human behavior that we all love to claim our case is different. Our S is different than that S in that story. But yet, too much is similar. So, on that, no, a drunken snapchat won't make your W come home/not come home, but that isn't the point. The point is, I think, is for you to alter your mindset because it isn't helping your growth as a person.
One thing I'm hearing from you is that you've got this wonderful set up: nice home, money, loving family, friends, you. And that her sitch now is dark, lonely, coatless, grim, and not half as nice as what you have to offer. And, that she's not going to find a better deal and the fact she hasn't proves you are the best deal.

This is highly likely to be TRUE. On the logical level. If she leaves you, she'll be a sad, old, lonely woman with a bad rep in the small town (I will also mindread for a wee bit and guess that OM got really scared off when she actually left you!!) with less money, crap life, etc. etc.

But you can't cling to this. Why? Because she has (for now, maybe ever) made this choice, however inconceivable it is to you. Why would she choose that over what you have to offer, you say? Well, there's the rub. We don't know, can't know, must move on to live our own lives as we can. I understand! H has chosen a crappy place alone, the guy who loved the companionship of marriage, loved spending lots of time with me, I could go on and on. The question is the same: how could he choose that over ME? Well, again, it's what he chose. In his case perhaps his fantasy is a better life, a pixie-dream-perfect girl, maybe your W has a fantasy life, maybe they are so freaking depressed they stare at the wall all day like JOB said. We don't know. But I really think this line of thinking is damaging you.
GAL [censored]! Life [censored]! Getting censored on this site [censored]!
Tango classes are probably dumb! But you've GOT to get yourself through the winter in one piece (I can't even imagine the cold and darkness..)
My advice: get a hottub! Get rid of all of her stuff and put in storage bins. Change the locks, change everything. Make the house so that if you brought someone over they would have no idea W existed. Just do it for now, doesn't have to be permanent. You have this life with a hole in it, and you are waiting for her to come back and fill it. NO! Close up your hole, your life, make it complete, make it you, for your sanity's sake. That does not negate standing or being a lighthouse. This has been said like 10,000 times on this board the MLCer can smell the changes. That's not why you are doing it, but either way, should she return or not, it's about your abode, your environs, and closing the hole.


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Quote:
She looked relieved when I said that if she wasn't sure that she was never coming back that I wasn't in any rush to split assets etc.
Do you know why? MLCrs HATE pressure .... nothing makes them turn tail and go squirrel faster than 'pressure'. You basically gave her the "Take as long as you need" card here ... not good/bad, but this is why she looked relieved because she felt she needs to add this to the "Things I must do now" list .... its one thing off her plate hence the relief.

#3
Quote:
Re-reading that it doesn't say that she will stay out there and lost for 3 years - she could but that's not what he wrote I believe.
What I wrote was just what I wrote ... and still holds true that you really have to not trust much of what they say in that time line provided its true MLC. "Believe none of what they say and 1/2 of what they do" actually works both ways .. while they are in replay/wayward and while they are experiencing a touch n go or trying to reconnect.
I do know of a man who survived MLC with his wife. she left for a bit and came back not fully baked, as I hoped my story would play out. He shared that it was a full 6 years till he actually seen his wife back, he never thought he would ever wait 6 years but he managed somehow to do it. Like GB said .. its not a 'snap out of it' kind of wakening .. its gradual and many of the changes/progress you will never even see, it gradually happens.

Let me ask you this ... would you want her to come home tomorrow not baked, not healthy and drag you through h@ll for another 18-24 months and rinse/repeat what you are going through now .... or would you rather stay apart where you both might actually heal and try to re-enter into a relationship where you are both stronger, wiser and healthy? Give that some thought and think the big picture here ... I get that the season is upon us and it makes what you are going through extremely hard and depressing.

I will pass to you something I have learned, not only through my own sitch but the extensive reading I have done with others. I have been trying to show you this all takes time .... Lets say its a 5k marathon, you can not run this at the pace of the 40 yard dash, not physically nor mentally ... because once those 40 yards is up and you actually see how much further you need to go you and most people would quit. It takes time my friend, but its a wonderful chance to rediscover yourself, become stronger because as you put it WHEN she comes back you will need to be stronger. I have not seen many cases where a MLCr came back to someone who did nothing, sat there and simply waited for them to come back. They do usually leave, and for them to come back they will want to know it can be better and more amazing than what it was.

Be better and more amazing.

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Ok ... I am not going to quote your post word for word, like myself you brain dum and its lentghy ... but also a healty way to get things out in a safe spot where people 'get' excactly what you are going through.

First things first .. the drinking, hey .. I can pound a few with the best of them, but this opens the door for me to do things I would resist doing sober. If you are going to drink to excess where you do not remember SnapChatting a Christmas card pic ... may be best to turn the phone off, put it where you do not think about doind such things ... btw this is just your scared little boy that lives insied of you trying to reach out and get a reaction from your W ... see it for what it is and learn from this.

#2:
Quote:
If only W would actually come out and say what it is that she wants.
She can't .... understand she is in crisis and she has no clue what it is she wants, only that she has this pain along with these urges and has decided now is her time, her time to selfishly pursue these regardless of the damage.


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So read the last part first .. talk about a tragic copy/paste job!!


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Andy,

Hope you are okay. Even if you feel you are not, you are, because you will be! I promise you!

People talk about detaching. It's a stock phrase that makes sense. But someone posted about the WS being in a coma; I think that is very grounding for me, and you - to get your head around the sitch.

Love the fact you smashed the wine etc. We all do that. When you feel more in control you do it less. It is a normal thing, predominantly male IMHO. The ladies will too but I don't know why men do this a lot. I did, still am, but more in control, it's slowing as I feel happier.

It takes time to get to a point when you feel more in control, when you do, you just feel happier. I know I have reached that because is got an endorphin rush on a 3.5k run. It was massive. One that was unexpected but I nearly cried through joy, relief, happiness etc. Never been into drugs but my word, if you could bottle it....id never take it. Far too fantastic.

So my point is this. This is hard, hard sh!t mate. You will feel up, down, all over. But it will go. Get out there. Meet other ladies, as friends only is my view. I think it will help. Not done it, with full confidence, yet but I bet it beats the alternative.

I have something planned for Monday. Excited. I won't be at all looking for a R, but it will tickle my soul as female company for the last few years has just been dirty, heavy spew. Horrific.

Keep doing what you are doing. You are doing great.

Also get a bit drunk over Christmas - in a relax way (not loose control). Give yourself a break. Feel happy or remose. So what. Just don't develop a habit. Stay, long term in control. I know you are.

Living the same dream chap. Just a few steps ahead and I assure you, you WILL be totally happy again.

Don't fear the W. Love AP. You are clearly a totally great guy that many girls would spchew their arm off for. Stop beefing yourself up. "Many arm around your neck in that bear hug get a grip way fella!"

You are smashing this. Very proud of you!

Surfer.


M46/W40/D8/S6/T20/M12/Separated 6/2016,W takes kids
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Altair - Thanks for stopping by. I think we were perhaps twins - born a decade apart and to different mothers. Knowing that I am W's best choice is a coping mechanism that Jack_Three_Beans was kind enough to share with me. It's what he himself believed and it helped him make it through. I try not to dwell on the details but slip sometimes and then come here and write long boring posts about it. I think that the motivation for the SnapChat was to share my pain - irresponsible and cruel perhaps. I have come to realize that nothing I say or do will make her come home. She has to decide that for herself and then I have to decide if I want her to. Jack suggested this tool to me in a conversation about one of my original reasons for "standing" - Pride. One good thing that it did for me at that point in my journey is that it made OM irrelevant. I no longer would need to think of comparing myself to a slimmer, richer (and quite a bit older) d@uchebag - er "man". I could just look in the mirror at myself.

I actually have started having a bubble-bath on Sundays - very relaxing. I have an old cast iron tub that holds the heat quite nicely. The house is largely emptied of W's things. There's a few family pictures around and our wedding picture on my desk and in the dining room but that's about it. Pretty much everything else was boxed up and put in the front porch out of my sight for her to come and get some time ago. It is indeed "my" home now. It was tough to do and I couldn't do a lot at any one time - W used to get quite upset whenever I touched "her" stuff so I had to overcome that as well.

I like to think (other than the last couple of days) that I'm doing rather well. I have a fairly full life doing things I enjoy, I have good friends. I suspected that when I posted a request to not focus on GAL activities that it would be taken as that I don't believe in that. I was essentially looking for a hug more than a kick in the @ss being told that if only I was "busy" and "active" and surrounded myself with people that I wouldn't be feeling sorry for myself.

I think you are right in repeating that a MLCr can "smell" changes. I know that my W brought up a number of small things that I hadn't thought she would care about. This is one of the few times that I hope that she's not reading here too and knows what a wreck I've been for the last 36 hours. I know that I need to put thoughts of W aside which had been getting easier. One of the unanswered questions that I have is whether my journey has any effect on her's. The information appears to be contradictory. On one hand I'm told that looking safe / desiring her to come back will keep her out there longer. On the other hand I read how a MLCer will suddenly "wake up" if their spouse gives up / moves on. On the third hand I am also told that I can't influence her at all except to scare her.

The shortest day / longest night is next week. After that the sun will be hidden fairly often by the regular storms we get through into early March. Seasonal depression usually hits me around the second week of February usually when we would be planning our trip to the Caribbean. This year I'll be planning a trip to see D24 and her H in Virginia.

CaliGuy - Thank you yet again for taking the time to post such a thoughtful even if badly pasted note laugh

Your comment about pressure/no pressure actually makes a huge amount of sense. W always hated being pressured into anything and this got a "lot" worse when the MLC thing hit. Anything else is mind-reading on my part.

Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Let me ask you this ... would you want her to come home tomorrow not baked, not healthy and drag you through hell for another 18-24 months and rinse/repeat what you are going through now .... or would you rather stay apart where you both might actually heal and try to re-enter into a relationship where you are both stronger, wiser and healthy?
You know, I honestly don't know my "real" answer to that. The logical, smart answer is to pick the healthy / stronger option. On the other side of this as you know yourself all too well is that this is very tiring and as a LBS we get desperate to have things come to an end. If you had told me in March that if I just waited 3 years and then maybe, just maybe a healthy whole W would be interested in coming back to me I would have run, not walked to file the D papers myself.

The time factor in itself is a lot more scary to me and probably a lot of people - more than any weird activities or possible OM. I know that for most newcomers it is mentioned but downplayed a bit. When this started SIL1 asked me to promise to wait a full year and at the time I thought that there was no way that it would drag on nearly that long.

Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
btw this is just your scared little boy that lives insied of you trying to reach out and get a reaction from your W ... see it for what it is and learn from this
I've met him quite a number of times. He used to sit in the corner and cry "please stop hurting me". He doesn't come out too often these days. There is also a very angry man inside me who wants to lash out who I keep locked in a very secure part of the cellar.

One of the things that helps me to keep "standing" is compassion for W and the pain she's going through. I saw it clearly in the eyes of the woman who I turned my back on on move-out day and in the few weeks prior from when I gave her my letter begging her to reconcile. I see that pain at times in what she posts to Facebook and very much saw it again when we had coffee. I know and she knows that I can't fix her but if I can stick it out then I can be a safe place for her to rest and heal from her own battles. For that I need to be strong and whole in myself.

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Surfer - thank you so much for the visit and kind words.

Originally Posted By: Surfer
Get out there. Meet other ladies, as friends only is my view. I think it will help. Not done it, with full confidence, yet but I bet it beats the alternative.
I'm being careful about this myself. I know that I'm still quite vulnerable.

Originally Posted By: Surfer
Also get a bit drunk over Christmas - in a relax way (not loose control). Give yourself a break. Feel happy or remose. So what. Just don't develop a habit. Stay, long term in control. I know you are.
I have some time planned with my brothers, their wives and my tiny nephew. S22 still remembers Dad getting somewhat sloshed most Saturdays. He's going to see the new, improved Dad who can have a beer and then stop.

Originally Posted By: Surfer
I know I have reached that because is got an endorphin rush on a 3.5k run. It was massive. One that was unexpected but I nearly cried through joy, relief, happiness etc. Never been into drugs but my word, if you could bottle it....id never take it. Far too fantastic.
It is indeed. I've not done that myself but I remember getting a major award as a teen. Having hundreds of people making a fuss over you for your achievements is quite a rush. I regularly get complimented for my work in my current role and while it's not the same sort of high, it makes me feel really good.

Originally Posted By: Surfer
You are clearly a totally great guy that many girls would spchew their arm off for.
I may ask you for their contact information if this doesn't work out laugh

Thanks again - I feel the man-hug and it feels great.


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Andrew,

MLCers have a very keen sense of knowing when we are pulling away and doing something w/our lives. It may be the tone of your voice, your body language or their driving by the residence and in some cases, when they step through the door, they'll notice changes immediately. Changes things up in your home is a step in the right direction. Doing this gives you something to do and you can actually call it your home. I know you like to have a few things around that remind you of happier times w/your wife...but for now...keep doing what you are doing to change up your home.

As for they waking up after you've dropped the rope. They don't wake up suddenly. It is a very gradual process, i.e., just as it was for them to go into MLC. When they are snapped out of their crisis for whatever reason, there is a strong possibility that at some later time they will re-enter MLC and pick up where they left off and the clock starts ticking and the second time around is a bit worse for them, as well as the LBS. The LBS becomes devastated as they have put a lot of hope and expectations into their waking up and wanting to return home (not fully baked).

When the LBS moves forward w/his/her life, begins to live again, be happy and rediscovers the person that they truly are, that is when the MLCer will become curious. Why? Because the LBS is no longer holding the rope and trying to get them back. They feel safer in stepping over the threshold and reaching out to be friends. If you remember, you and your wife started out as friends and that's where you will begin again when the time is right and the MLC oven bell dings that she's just about done. The old marriage is gone and a new one will take place, if both parties are in agreement. But...remember...any changes that you've made along your journey must become a permanent part of your life. For your MLCer will be watching and waiting to see if you revert back to the "old" Andrew. Both of you will have changed and it is important to keep those changes going and not fall back into the old marital routines, etc.

So, for now...she's in the oven baking. It's going to take some time before the oven bell dings. While she's baking up, you continue to move forward. Enjoy the time you spend w/family and friends, especially during the holidays. Maybe you might like to throw a little dinner party or just a "snack" party and invite some family/friends over...that would be great. Nothing says that your home has to become a silent tomb for. Andrew, life is far too short to allow it to pass you buy. This is the time for you to rediscover the man you were prior to marrying your wife.

You've got this! One step at a time.


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Sending you hugs (((AP))). You never fail to amaze me in that all through this crisis and the spinning you experience every now and again you have always remained understanding and respectful of your W's journey.

I think it takes a very strong person to do this and if you sometimes fall off the path you are only human so don't beat yourself up about it. I myself have stayed well clear of alcohol on the whole and the few times I have indulged since BD I have surprisingly managed to stop myself from drunk texting H and instead sobbed like a baby on any available shoulder. Hey, you do want you can to get through it!

Keep snapping that elastic band AP!


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job - Thank you for taking the time and writing that out. You've written pretty much all of that to me at one time or another in different pieces. Seeing it all put together, explaining the "system" though makes it a whole lot better and helps it make sense. I would almost suggest that this get added to one of the "sticky" threads but perhaps I am unique in being confused about the "why" and "how" of all of this. I've never been a good one for just following instructions "because" - I have many witnesses to that. I always need to know the "why". It's one of my frustrations with this forum where people will often say "do this", "do that", "don't do that" but without context that I can understand or relate to.

I'm honestly not sure how much W has noticed of my changes. I think from other things you've written that she is expecting me to still be sitting in the same house in stasis while she's been playing with the fairies. It's been frustrating in some ways that she hasn't crossed the threshold since July 22nd and seen the clean, tidy house with her stuff carefully stacked up for her. Frustrating in the "Look at me! I'm a great guy that you are losing!" way and in the "Can you please take this crap away so that I can be free of the drag of it in my life" way. Not that it causes me any day-to-day issue, just that if this split becomes permanent it would be one less thing for me to worry about. I do though know that she is keeping a very careful eye on me, much closer it feels now that it appears that OM is at least temporarily out of the picture. I saw an article a few days ago where it was suggested that this is the time of year for many relationships to end. I'd always been curious on how OM would have gotten on with W's family or her with his. Now perhaps we'll never know.

job - I'm sure we'll correspond before Christmas but I would like to wish you and your family Peace, Love and Joy during this Season and hope that you will be able to take some time to smell your own roses and see what a truly wonderful world it is out there rather than the gloom that sometimes seems to be all to pervasive here. Sending you a great big hug my dear friend (((((job))))) My own plans over the "holidays" are pretty low key. I am having dinner with my brothers and their wives next Thursday and hope to spend some time with S22. Most of my friends IRL live a bit of distance from me and will be wrapped up in their own things. While I'm quite friendly with many of the people in the Village and would enjoy entertaining I still would feel awkward inviting them over. I believe that quite a few don't even know that W and I are separated.


Coly23 - Thanks for the visit. You know it's funny that you mention me being understanding and respectful. I see so many other couples sniping and complaining about each other and not respecting each other to their faces and wonder how could they possibly do that to another person, much less someone that they love. For all her faults - and both W and I have lots - she is a kind, loving person with a good heart who I like and admire. If I didn't respect her, I wouldn't have gone through this for her and us. Perhaps it's cruel of me to think this, but perhaps her time with OM let her know what the rest of the world is like.

I'm looking forward to reading on your thread how your party goes tonight - it perhaps has already started given the time-difference. I'm sure you'll look smashing in that new dress. I wish I could see it. Hugs right back to you my dear (((((Coly23)))))

Journaling
I had a bit of struggle to get home last night through the weather. Pre-BD I perhaps would have just camped out in a coffee shop until later knowing that W would be taking care of things at home but pushed through - because there is no-one else even though the cats would have survived a missed meal. The roads were a real mess with heavily drifted snow and it took me about 3 1/2 hours to get home instead of the usual 2 1/2. Visibility was generally pretty good though. Once there the snow-blower did fairly short work of the 18" of snow in the driveway. I managed to find my recycling bins under the snow but the plow had knocked the can down into the yard under the apple tree. The lid for the can can't be found. Perhaps a mission for the weekend combing through the snow looking for it.

For those like me who put a certain amount stock in "signs" etc, the apple that I wrote about recently is no longer "hanging on" in the tree. The missing apple was included as part of my SnapChat vignette last night. Not sure what W thought of that when she saw it.

Cats got fed, my lunch was made and dishes done up without incident. This morning another 4" or 5" of snow in the driveway to be cleared out plus the expected drift at the end where the plow pushed it. I felt a bit bad because on my way out I saw W's boss over at the store shoveling by hand. He gave me a cheery wave as I drove by though. I wonder if he'll take me up on my offer of parking in my driveway now that the streets aren't as easy to park on. I was tempted to go and get W's heavy winter coats to have him give her, but no - she's got a key. A good friend was leaning on me to deliver them to her to get "brownie points" and couldn't understand how the usual very accommodating AndrewP was saying "She's got her own d@mned key - she can get them herself".

I've moved another stage in the cycling that I've been doing. I'm into the sadness stage now. I think I went through a lot of the fuel I had stacked up after meeting W for coffee. Today I was muttering to myself "it would so simple for her to just come home" - yes - I know nothing is simple any more. There's a lot more of "winter" to go through with the wood pile being depleted. I sort of expect some contact through Christmas. I wasn't able to check the mail yesterday and do wonder if she'll give me a card in return for the one I left for her on Sunday. The thoughts of putting an end to this in the New Year are back but not as strong as before. I have a lot of hard thinking to do - so much reasonable logic says to not bother any more. But I'm not always reasonable.

S22 was supposed to contact me on Monday to tell me when he was wanting to come home for Christmas. No word on Monday, no response to my text on Thursday or this morning nor to the voice-mail I left him a short while ago. Sigh. Again - it would have been so simple in the past but the past is far away. I'm only slightly tempted to contact W and get his plans from her but <SNAP> there are good odds that she hasn't given S22 her own plans. Ideally I'd like to pick S22 up tonight which I said in my voice-mail but feel that's unlikely. Ideally I'd also like to have W waiting for us at home with a warm hug, a big smile and a friendly ear to listen to the stories of our adventures. That certainly isn't going to happen.


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Originally Posted By: job


As for they waking up after you've dropped the rope. They don't wake up suddenly. It is a very gradual process, i.e., just as it was for them to go into MLC. When they are snapped out of their crisis for whatever reason, there is a strong possibility that at some later time they will re-enter MLC and pick up where they left off and the clock starts ticking and the second time around is a bit worse for them, as well as the LBS. The LBS becomes devastated as they have put a lot of hope and expectations into their waking up and wanting to return home (not fully baked).


Andrew ... this is precisely what happened to me. She seems to be a bit nicer now after what ... 10 months of very Dim/Dark but this is why I asked you the question just to give you a heads up .... some people can do it, some have live-ins ... I am a pretty tough dude but not MLC Monster tough.

The blip about moving on ... I know we preach GAL and you resist (normal trust me) But I will just echo this. There was a saying someone always said here ... they can't miss you till you are gone. You will not see movement often, sometimes you will see something and its not what you think it might be ... trick is to get on your feet and become a stronger man from all this regardless of what she is doing.

You have touched on anger .. a couple times and I have been waiting for this. Its good ... yes .. its good. USE that anger (I am really trying not to sound like Darth Vader here) ... USE it to fuel you across to the next point, do not live there with it, I had a very wise woman here help me tremendously with this. Its healthy to be angry, you should feel that ... it means you are progressing .. just do not stay there with it.


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
[quote=job]

There was a saying someone always said here ... they can't miss you till you are gone. You will not see movement often, sometimes you will see something and its not what you think it might be ... trick is to get on your feet and become a stronger man from all this regardless of what she is doing.

You have touched on anger .. a couple times and I have been waiting for this. Its good ... yes .. its good. USE that anger (I am really trying not to sound like Darth Vader here) ... USE it to fuel you across to the next point, do not live there with it, I had a very wise woman here help me tremendously with this. Its healthy to be angry, you should feel that ... it means you are progressing .. just do not stay there with it.


CaliGuy...I also saw something along the lines of them missing you...it went like "If your absence doesn't affect them, then your presence never mattered." Something along those lines...unfortunately we won't know until they complete their journey.

As for the anger...are you saying you were angry with your wife, angry with the MLC, or just angry in general? How do you work thru that once it has set in. I haven't hit this stage, but I feel some anger and bitterness showing up, but I think it is mainly due to the overall situation and not directed at her.


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Originally Posted By: SBJ

CaliGuy...I also saw something along the lines of them missing you...it went like "If your absence doesn't affect them, then your presence never mattered." Something along those lines...unfortunately we won't know until they complete their journey.

That sounds like a quote a broken hearted teen would post on facebook ... not something I think you can really apply with a MLCr as I have read a few accounts that after they emerged from the fog they confessed they always loved the spouse it was just overpowered with the need to be selfish and do as they wanted.
Originally Posted By: SBJ

As for the anger...are you saying you were angry with your wife, angry with the MLC, or just angry in general? How do you work thru that once it has set in. I haven't hit this stage, but I feel some anger and bitterness showing up, but I think it is mainly due to the overall situation and not directed at her.

Man .. I was livid ... wanted to punish her for wrecking my life, our marriage, sleeping with a slimeballdouchenozzle ... to top it off she contracted herpes from said dude (Turns out she was OW2-3) but swore the soul mate garbage.

So yeah ... I was angry. Very Very angry

Thing is its easy to get angry, especially when you pull out and play the victim card on a regular basis. I was perfect how dare she do this to me and our marriage .... then slowly as my focus left her and turned inward ("we can only control ourselves".... I took further to "we also can only change ourselves" not the MLCr) I noticed my reflection was not such a great looking guy, her crisis is her crisis and she has to own what she did.... but there were several things I needed to own up to and fix in myself so later (for you biblical scholars Mathew 7:3 was the catalyst here) ... whether its with her or some one else I can be the partner I should have been, the one I am capable of being.


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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Originally Posted By: SBJ

CaliGuy...I also saw something along the lines of them missing you...it went like "If your absence doesn't affect them, then your presence never mattered." Something along those lines...unfortunately we won't know until they complete their journey.

That sounds like a quote a broken hearted teen would post on facebook ... not something I think you can really apply with a MLCr as I have read a few accounts that after they emerged from the fog they confessed they always loved the spouse it was just overpowered with the need to be selfish and do as they wanted.
Originally Posted By: SBJ

As for the anger...are you saying you were angry with your wife, angry with the MLC, or just angry in general? How do you work thru that once it has set in. I haven't hit this stage, but I feel some anger and bitterness showing up, but I think it is mainly due to the overall situation and not directed at her.

Man .. I was livid ... wanted to punish her for wrecking my life, our marriage, sleeping with a slimeballdouchenozzle ... to top it off she contracted herpes from said dude (Turns out she was OW2-3) but swore the soul mate garbage.

So yeah ... I was angry. Very Very angry

Thing is its easy to get angry, especially when you pull out and play the victim card on a regular basis. I was perfect how dare she do this to me and our marriage .... then slowly as my focus left her and turned inward ("we can only control ourselves".... I took further to "we also can only change ourselves" not the MLCr) I noticed my reflection was not such a great looking guy, her crisis is her crisis and she has to own what she did.... but there were several things I needed to own up to and fix in myself so later (for you biblical scholars Mathew 7:3 was the catalyst here) ... whether its with her or some one else I can be the partner I should have been, the one I am capable of being.


CaliGuy...how did you know I saw that on FB (just kidding) someone told it to me to fit my sitch. Not sure it applies, but we do want them to realize that we are missing. She told her father recently...he is my best friend in the world...yet, she is leaving and I am no longer in her life daily. That kind of sparks what you might consider "confused anger".

I guess to paraphrase your scripture...counting the sins of another doesn't make you a saint. I know that I have alot to work on. I guess what I am seeing mostly is the fact that I shouldn't "NEED" her in my life, but I sure would like it if she was in it. I need to work on becoming secure in myself, by myself so that I really find out who I am. I want to be known as "SBJ", not just _____'s husband or _____'s father.

By the way, AP...sorry to hijack your thread.


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S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
SBJ #2721489 12/17/16 08:29 AM
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SBJ - no problem at all - I appreciate the extra dialogue.


CaliGuy:

Matthew 7:3 - Certainly a similar quote to "people who live in glass houses" and "let ye who is without sin cast the first stone". Even though I am not a Believer I like to think that I'm a spiritual man and indeed did read the Bible from cover to cover as a youth trying to explore my own spirit. The begats were tough going laugh. Hopefully this pun won't upset anyone - it is indeed a "Good Book" - lots of great stories and things to learn.

On anger. Yes, I have a lot and W knows it. While I've only raised my voice to her perhaps three times during this journey - once "why the f@ck are you still here" (I also pretty much never use profanity), and a couple of "what does he have that I don't have" (which I backed down from as irrelevant), she does know that the anger exists. It's a different sort of anger though - one that I hold inside and that will drain away in time possibly leaving a core of bitterness if she never returns.

I also have other anger. I've been quite angry with people here as anyone who has played along may know. I also was quite angry with my first IC who was quite unhelpful. One thing I noticed with that anger was that it ripped my focus away from W and my situation and accelerated my healing. I certainly don't seek out that anger and have had similar results from joy although since I haven't felt that as strongly as I have anger it has a lesser effect. One thing that I made a conscious decision to do following BD2 is to find some thing to be joyful about each and every day. I did mention this to W once or perhaps twice early in this journey and was rather surprised when over coffee I mentioned it and she remarked that she also now tries to find one thing to be grateful for or happy about each day and that sometimes it takes hard thinking before she goes to bed but she does find it.

I'm not sure where you were going with this CaliGuy - but as I learned from "talking" to Jack_Three_Beans and eric that sometimes these conversations open up new areas for growth for me.


job - Thank you again for your notes on how the "process" works. I had a bit of an epiphany this morning around 4:00am (6 hours ago) and have been hammering it around in my head to compose it properly. W and I used to have an "in-joke" where I would come up with what I thought was a fabulous, original idea and then after a moment turn to her and ask when it was that she first suggested it to me laugh

Here is the AndrewP version of the "process" - or at least the process as I'm currently understanding it and trying to use it. I'm not completely happy with the wording but this is the best I can do for now.
Quote:
As a LBS you need to move forward. Where you are isn't where you want to be. You need to make a place where you can love and be loved and where you can most importantly love yourself. If your spouse is willing and finds this place attractive, they will carefully look in and and may ask to join you. You cannot go and herd them in front of you or drag them in. They must join you of their own free will. Don't go rushing into the place where they are. You don't want to be there.

So - I'll accept my gold star now teacher.

Just a note on "GAL" and my attitude about it. I may get a bunch of disagreement, but this is the way I think. GAL as I feel it is being told and used here scares the bejeezus out of me. To me it seems like an effort to go out and be busy for the sake of being busy and to surround yourself with people and noise as a distraction from the reality you are living. For my entire life I have always stood and squarely faced any challenge that has come my way, sometimes wearing brown trousers, but always standing firm. To me, the classic definition of GAL, which a lot of people take as getting out to the gym, making themselves "better", surrounding themselves with people and distractions looks and sounds exactly like what my MLCer W did. She did the exercising, surrounded herself with people who validated her, told her to have fun and to me this was a key thing - always had music playing ear-drum blasting loud. I am terrified of going down that path myself because it is shiny and leads into (I feel) the same madness.

Time to clean the driveway yet again, go off and get my groceries and roses. I had to snap the elastic a bit last night / this morning. S22 still isn't responding to my messages and I was also tempted to invite W out for brunch tomorrow morning.

(BTW, replaced your quote for you as you requested.)

Last edited by job; 12/17/16 09:34 AM. Reason: edited quote for poster

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I'm interested in your attitude towards GAL Andrew and I had thought there might be some fear there based on the strength of your reaction.

I have seen that in others - that they equate GAL - with dropping the rope and moving on - starting a R with another in effect.

For me, as you know I have many activities, and some bring me into contact with guys. I also decided it isn't a great plan to date until at least a year after D finalised (next May.) And so I have some careful boundaries. I avoid 1-1 outings, lifts and I also tell guys I'm not seeking to date just now. I exercise a level of self-control in those interactions.

Are you worried that you may not be able to have that kind of control if faced with an appealing woman?

Also, I don't equate GAL with 'running away' from processing things. I do have quieter times too and have reflected and read a great deal. It is important to get that balance I think. I'd encourage you to reflect on the scenario I previously described - you are not with your W and you are not dating. But you are happy with your life and your social, connective needs are met.....what does that look like??

smile x


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Hi Andrew.
I have a few thoughts. Worth no more than the paper they are printed on, but I will share them freely in case you find them useful:

re: GAL and distraction. Yes, I've experienced that and it exhausted me. It did take my mind off things, which was better I guess than being home and wallowing. I have a new understanding now though of GAL. It is to learn who I am separate from my marriage. For many years I defined myself as a wife and mother. Stbxh's wife and s's mother. When Stbxh left and took S with him 1/2 time, I was left wondering who am I now? What are the things I like to do? What interests me? A wise friend who was divorced about 10 years ago told me that at first it's hard to get your bearings because you were 1/2 of a whole for so long. It's baby steps of finding out what interests you personally vs what you did as a couple. For him, he discovered a love of kayaking. He said it helped him deal with the sadness and stress and then also helped him heal. We've known this friend for a number of years, before their divorce, and he's always been a straight shooter and good person and I've learned over time to appreciate his wisdom and value his experiences. And I do mean friend - there isn't anything romantic between us, nor has there ever been the suggestion of that.

So I took his suggestion, which was to try some new things and also try to think back about doing some things I've maybe stopped during the course of marriage and motherhood. I've tried some new things, like taking a language class and singing in public. But, I've also been reminded of how much I love photography and also how much I love seeing the occasional live concert. These were things I loved before being in a couple and things I continue to love. Somewhere in the middle, they got put aside or ignored as Stbxh didn't share these interests.

So, GAL to me these days means finding something that makes me smile and brings me joy. It has nothing to do with son or stbxh or whether or not we will ever find our way back to each other. It has absolutely nothing to do with dating either.

I can only speak for myself and my relationship: as things got more difficult living with my MLCer, I became more distraught, needy and co-dependent. I don't think that's a healthy way to relate, and it's not a recipe for a successful relationship for me personally. In order for me to be healthy again I need to be stronger in myself. My GAL activities are designed to remind ME of who I am, separate from the relationship. These activities allow room for partnership too, but are mostly about me having a stronger relationship with myself so that any relationship with my partner is healthy and not based in co-dependence.

Regarding anger, frankly, I've refrained from responding to your threads because at times you've been very angry with some people who have tried to help you, and I find that quite off-putting. I get enough anger from other areas of my life and don't need to go looking for it, but I did want to respond to you regarding different views on GAL as I thought you might find some use to it.

Wishing you well.


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP

I'm not sure where you were going with this CaliGuy - but as I learned from "talking" to Jack_Three_Beans and eric that sometimes these conversations open up new areas for growth for me.

Thats precisely where I wqas going .... I learned here that sometimes that a topic will come up, (I recall "Forgiveness" sprouted up in one of my threads and went on for 4-5 pages) it became a topic for several and looking at it from so many different perspectives I started really looking hard into my own perspective and often walked away thinking about it harder or in a few cases actually coming away with a different look at it. This is growth

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Just a note on "GAL" and my attitude about it. I may get a bunch of disagreement, but this is the way I think. GAL as I feel it is being told and used here scares the bejeezus out of me. To me it seems like an effort to go out and be busy for the sake of being busy and to surround yourself with people and noise as a distraction from the reality you are living.

You will think how you will think ... and yeah its not a secret you will not be the 2016 posterboy for GALing ... but there is still time to run your 2017 campaign laugh

Andrew ... I will confess I was the same. No lie .. "pfffft GAL its just running from the real work that I should be doing, I can easily watch a movie and forget about my sitch for a while and call it GAL." I may not have said those words here in fear of the 2x4's but I surely thought them.

Before my arrival to DB I went to IC, this in itself was a 180 for me but I had found myself alone and lost. The 'friends' we had were her friends as she always scheduled/planned the get togethers and Cali would run to the store and get beverages or maybe make his famous chili ... once there I had a great time but I was not texting/calling. -- Anyways .. in IC she pushed me to GAL and I pushed back ... to busy, I work 2 jobs and have things that I have to get done. I always would get invites and ALWAYS politely turn them down. The IC sat up, looked me into the eyes like she was talking to my soul and asked me "Cali ... what would happen if you just said yes and actually went to one of these?" She shut me up on the spot and I had to think about it ... well I wouldn't die, I suppose I could ... so almost like on a dare I agreed to accept and go to the next event I was invited to.

I went .. was a birthday party.

That's when the light bulb came off ... was in the next IC session a few weeks after this party, and what I hope you come away with after reading along. Its not about "GALing" per say .. not about running and avoiding your problem/situation .. on the surface it looks like that. True GALing is getting out of your comfort zone, and opening yourself up for growth. Old Cali would never go to that party ... Cali 2.0 often frequents them now... I am still busy but I do try to keep myself open to new things.

I have a list of stuff I have done/accomplished post BD that I would never really have thought about giving a chance ... not all of them I stuck to but I can look back and smirk about the memory .... truth is I feel more alive after coming out of a time I felt empty inside.


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That's really funny- no A.P. "Best GAL Award" in 2016.

A.P., I know you get GAL ideals and no, neither you nor I will go to the gym and sling kettleballs and take kickboxing classes. And it's great for some- lots of people on this site are doing man mud runs and jumping out of planes (go to you tube and search "what the F*** are you doing David?"-- guaranteed laugh and worth the 28 seconds)

My GAL for Sunday is to Chicken and cat sit and yes! The house owners get the NYT. I will do the crossword puzzle. Maybe your GAL will be to rearrange the living room. Or eat a bear claw instead of a scone. These do count.


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Thanks everyone.

Altair - I was indeed daring today and had a brownie as well as my scone for lunch. And as far as emulating "David" goes - sign me up for "not interested". As far as 2017 goes, I don't even think I'll get a "participation" award, nor the Mr. Congeniality laugh

I think that one thing that might be different for me is that my codependency on W was a relatively recent thing that was my attempt to help her with her depression by being more available, more positive, more considerate - perhaps to the point of smothering her. On the other hand she seemed to take all I offered and appeared to want more to the point where around the time that her A started I was bracing myself to ask her to give me more space. For many years of our marriage I used to joke that the three magic words that "saved our marriage" were "have fun dear" and they were in fact true. We had/have separate friends, separate interests, separate activities. We also had enough in common that the times we spent together were great.

My life right now is pretty darned good and I'm rather happy with it. I have now more friends than I did pre BD, am better connected to my family, have (other than my sitch) less stress. I've rediscovered things I love such as fresh roses and bubble baths. With my weight being down and my physical health being better there are less barriers between me and the things I enjoy. I just spent close to an hour clearing heavy wet snow without any angina pains at all. Still can't find the darned garbage can lid though. I do have to remind myself to apologize when breaking wind and (this is TMI) try hard to remember to close the bathroom door laugh The risks of living alone I suppose.

Do I miss W? Absolutely. Do I want to be loved and form that special bond with a woman that needs to be part of a committed relationship - Absolutely. Does the thought that W may come back to me sent my heart a-flutter? Absolutely. Will I be OK if she never comes back? Absolutely.

I don't want to get into it too much, but I feel I should go back to anger and this forum for a moment. I've written about this recently, about how at least for me knowing the "why" of things is almost more important than knowing the "what". My conflicts have been mainly around people appearing to be instructing me on what to do without telling me why. GAL, detach, drop the rope are to me, "platitudes" without context. GAL? Ok - GAL because it will make you a better person and take your mind of things. "Drop the rope" - because you are too wrapped up in what your spouse is doing and need to focus on yourself. We won't get into some of the other times when things have escalated, or when people found it necessary to make blunt statements of things I already knew like that my wife was sleeping with another man and enjoying it. I found no purpose in that other than to cause me pain. Recently I was going to write a short essay here based on the song title "Be Thoughtful and Kind". Please, all of us, Be Thoughtful and Kind. You may feel that you know all about what is going on in a particular person's life who you only know from what you see on this screen in front of you but bluntly stating "I know everything about your life even though I've never met you and you need to do exactly what I'm telling you" is not being either thoughtful or kind. Some people, especially those where the hurt is very fresh and who are spinning perhaps need that sort of slap. A parallel to me perhaps is working with horses which I have a bit of history with. A horse stands taller than most men and is more powerful by far. Horses can also be quite stubborn and headstrong. Yes, it is possible for a person with a lot of knowledge to strong-arm a horse into doing what they want for a short period of time but the horse will resent it. I've seen enough kicks in the stable to attest to that. If on the other hand you use soft words appreciate that this huge beautiful animal is a creature with it's own fears and guide it, showing it the benefits of doing what you want it to do, then you will have a willing partner in tackling the tough work ahead.


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Hi Andrew

Finally got around to heading over to your threads, I have started from the beginning of the MLC forum ones, so bear with me while I catch up and forgive me if I ever say something that has already been covered. I felt that I should check out my fellow ambergris adventurer, because, well, its a kinda weird thing to be interested in, or even know about....right?? .... laugh and no, still have not found any, but admit to not looking that hard !!

Firstly, thank you so much for your support over on my thread, your friendship means a great deal to me. Your kind words of your last post really helped me and I am feeling a lot more positive about things.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Do I miss W? Absolutely. Do I want to be loved and form that special bond with a woman that needs to be part of a committed relationship - Absolutely. Does the thought that W may come back to me sent my heart a-flutter? Absolutely. Will I be OK if she never comes back? Absolutely.


Snap (inset man though ha ha).Some how, for some reason, they hold a special place with us - maybe because we knew them before all this happened; we hold on to the memories of them as they were, the person we know is still in there somewhere. Its why we are here, standing for a person we still love no matter what they have done and do.

But after my latest mis-adventure with h, I can see how important it is to make an independent life as if they are not coming back and to deal with our own demons to make us healthy and whole people.

You sound in a good place right now and long may that continue for you, I feel that when we get to the point when we have more good days than bad days then the corner has been rounded. Down days and meltdowns (you know I have them ....often ..ha ha..) will happen and that makes you more sensitive to what everyone is saying to you, I feel that everyone here means well, they certainly don't mean to be insensitive, we all say/write things differently and we read replies from others in our own way, which could be taken out of the context it was written in - if this makes sense.


Keep being you my friend.

((hugs))







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I meant to say ambergris, not abalone ha ha. Nothing wrong with abalone gathering, if you like that kinda thing, but a bit more common than ambergris!

Lou, I corrected the word in your previous posting.

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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
My life right now is pretty darned good and I'm rather happy with it.


and yet, you said this less than a week ago
Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Am I to wait until I am 70 before I can be happy again?


This line worried me before, and I replied to you, but maybe you didnt want to respond to it. In any case, my purpose of writing to you now was to reply to this:

Originally Posted By: AndrewP
GAL as I feel it is being told and used here scares the bejeezus out of me. To me it seems like an effort to go out and be busy for the sake of being busy and to surround yourself with people and noise as a distraction from the reality you are living. For my entire life I have always stood and squarely faced any challenge that has come my way, sometimes wearing brown trousers, but always standing firm. To me, the classic definition of GAL, which a lot of people take as getting out to the gym, making themselves "better", surrounding themselves with people and distractions looks and sounds exactly like what my MLCer W did. She did the exercising, surrounded herself with people who validated her, told her to have fun and to me this was a key thing - always had music playing ear-drum blasting loud. I am terrified of going down that path myself because it is shiny and leads into (I feel) the same madness.

I disagree with your assessment that going out and getting a life is to distract and numb ourselves from the pain we are going through. To me, thats more of a side effect than the goal. For me, it was about so much m,roe than distracting myself. It was about proving to myself that I had intrinsic value as a person. When my ex left, almost all of my friends from my married life migrated away as if my divorce was contagious. They were mostly my ex's friends originally, but regardless I was left mostly alone with my kids.

So I did two major things:
1) I joined a weekly event in one of my hobbies. No loud ear-blasting music. Almost nobody of the opposite sex. This is my nightmare scenario - going out to a group of strangers who already mostly know each other and trying to 'fit in'. But I cant even begin to describe how rewarding it's been. Ive made friends with several others and have broken off on multiple occasions to meet up to do things outside of the specified event time.This helped prove to me that I was someone people wanted to be around. It helped my self-esteem and my self-worth revert back to healthy levels.

2) I started planning new and fun things to do with my kids. While this may not apply to you, I started looking for exciting things to do with them over the weekends. While I was married, we tended to do the same 3 things every weekend with minimal excitement. Lots of trips to Costco or Target followed by lunch and the mall or something. But we started to go to museums and outdoor events and concerts and the like. I know this will pay dividends in the relationship with my children down the road.

My point really is that I dont see GAL for me having anything to do with MLC. I didnt do any of it looking for a new partner. It isnt rebellious. It isnt numbing the process. Its standing in the face of the challenges and prospering despite them.

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darkness,

I really like your posting.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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I do too,

An excellent post

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Originally Posted By: darknes
I disagree with your assessment that going out and getting a life is to distract and numb ourselves from the pain we are going through. To me, that's more of a side effect than the goal. For me, it was about so much more than distracting myself. It was about proving to myself that I had intrinsic value as a person.
darknes - Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. I was very fortunate in my journey I think because I have always had a (some people believe too) high belief in myself. Once I started opening up to people about W leaving even before I knew about the affair their first reaction was always "but you're such a great guy", "this has nothing to do with you" and yes, I believed them. Confirmation bias perhaps. Certainly I have down days - the "wait until I am 70" thing was in the context of how long it may take to wait for W to get through her crisis more than a doubt about myself or how good my life is.

Many of the people who come here indeed did not have much of a life outside of their spouse and having your spouse walk away with another partner is a huge blow to everyone's ego including mine. For them getting out from as the old Statler Brothers song says "counting flowers on the wall" is a necessary step in building their sense of self. It can also go too far though too I feel. I saw in my own sister how she wrapped herself up in activities and good works when her H was struck with a terminal illness. She now is more stressed and depressed than ever to the point where she is on medication and perhaps may need to take a medical leave. Loving yourself I feel is key and the biggest part of that is knowing and accepting who you are, warts and all.

So - I'm not disagreeing with you in general principals and am glad that you were able to find fulfilling things to re-build your sense of self. One size does not always fit all though. When I want to find myself, I look down at my boots (actually some rather nice wing-tips at the moment) and know that "I Am Here".

And yes - I do agree with the others that this was a very good and insightful post. I also want to apologize if you felt slighted that I didn't address your comments earlier. I've had some difficulties here in getting into the weeds too much when in fact I am looking for rainbows so I let far more comments just slide by than I did in the past.


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Boy, I'm just blowing through the pages again. A few things are actually happening and I just wanted to send a shout out to Sotto on a book recommendation she made quite some time ago.
Originally Posted By: Sotto
Also Viktor Frankl - Man's search for meaning - helped with perspective.
BTW Sotto - I was reading some of your older threads recently as a coincidence. My grandmother had the same pet name as you had - not something you would imagine for your own grandmother but looking back, it fits. She was quite the lady, full of spirit but steady as a rock. I have a picture of her that is one of my favourites where she and a friend took a break from field work to take one last twirl in some velvet skirts that were going to be re-purposed into curtains. Seeing her there, with a huge smile on her face in a fancy skirt with her work boots peeking out and a battered straw hat on her head always makes me smile.
I got to the top of the waiting list for the audio book copy of Dr. Frankl's work and have been listening to it for the last few days. A very deep but also troubling work. Not for the faint of heart as it describes Dr. Frankl's experience in the concentration camps. Even though he perhaps glosses over some of it the shear brutality is troubling. I just hit the part where Frankl is talking about suffering. This quote In some way, suffering ceases to be suffering at the moment it finds a meaning. is one of many that resonated for me. While I would hesitate to call myself a martyr much of the current fuel for Standing right now is Duty. I may be completely wrong - and often am - but I feel that W is currently in a very dark place. If she was still off gallivanting with OM (which she may be) then I would feel less obligation to her. Right now though my heart and conscience turns at the thought of abandoning her to her fate now.

This ties a bit to one thing that I struggled with tonight. Yet another card came in the mail, this one from one of W's dearest friends from many years ago, a woman that has faithfully sent us a card every year with a kind personal greeting in it. I didn't have the heart to send her the generic impersonal card that I sent to others and skipped her name this year. The card, addressed to Mr. & Mrs. P talks of togetherness and love and is very sweet. I had originally thought of putting the envelope back into the mailbox unopened with a sticky on it re-routing it to W which the post-mistress would do. W still also has her mailbox key but I don't know if she uses it often or not. Having opened the card, it would have just been cruel I think to have her face that right now. I'm glad that I have it and will put it up on the string with all the others.

I broke NC yesterday for a good reason. S22 has not responded to any of my messages asking when / if he would be home for Christmas. He hasn't been home since Mother's Day in fact. For other "events" I have gone down to him. W I think went down around his birthday. I asked W last night if she had heard from him or knew her plans. She let me know that she's been unable to reach him as well. I told W to not worry about putting herself out, that I would deal with it. On her own she then reached to one of S22's roommates for a status update. I complimented her for the very clever idea and thanked her. From the Life360 app that I use with the kids I know that he is at least depleting and recharging his phone but hasn't left his apartment for some days. He has also been online from time to time reading messages, but not responding. I was tempted to give access to the Life 360 app to W but didn't <snap goes the elastic>. I'm sure everything will work out, even if I have to load his gifts into the car and drive down on Christmas morning with my best Ho Ho Ho but it is worrisome and a bit annoying at the same time. In the messages to W I wrote and then removed a number of passive-aggressive comments because yes, I do in fact blame her for his reluctance to come home. I can imagine that she doesn't need additional Truth Darts from me about this - but who knows. None of her messages had any sort of blame towards me attached. It's nice to see that we can co-parent without conflict even if W went further than I expected / asked her to. I sent W a message that I will leave things in her hands for now but that I would plan on going over to see S22 / pick him up on Friday afternoon. If he refuses to come home, that's fine - I can take his gifts to him. The best gift of all for me is seeing him.

Well - time for me to make my lunch and get to bed.


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Andrew

Holidays are brutal ... in fact I have found the walls in my place have been closing in on me a bit. I am glad to read that you have resisted the impulses ... re-sending her the card/ retracting the passive/aggressive comments, this is a very good sign as you continue your journey in all this

I do hope your son will peek out and you can get a hold of him, I know this time of year is especially brutal for all of us and its very easy to get down/angry all at once but you do sound like you are doing well.

Hang in there.


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Agreed. Those cards just sound brutal to receive. I can't imagine. I also haven't received any yet, I gather because H's side were the primary old-school senders of cards.
It's almost over!
Then, New Years resolutions!


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AndrewP, yes it's hard to get those cards. Especially the ones with the photos of the families with bright shining faces.

I'm sorry to hear your son isn't responding. If all else fails, going to see him sounds like it will be a nice treat for you.

Keep up the good work. Despite the difficulty with the holidays it sounds like you are making good decisions (i.e., not resending the card, no truth darts, etc.). I like to believe it does make a difference when we rise above it all.

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Yes, almost over Andrew, just one more hurdle.

I hope S22 is ok, it's awful isn't it. I know my S24 is feeling it too but doesn't say anything.

H has messaged him but he doesn't answer, that's up to him. He's still home with me though, thank God and D34 lives opposite so I'm very lucky.

Hope you hear from him soon, you can do without this worry too.

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Thank you everyone for the kind and supportive comments.

I heard from S22 shortly before bed last night. A one line text saying "Friday works best for me". He must be getting lessons on how to keep messages short and to the point from darknes wink

I briefly let W know and got an "OK, thanks for letting me know. I was very concerned" from her to which I replied "Me too". There are no further plans for me to contact her about anything. Arrangements to see S22 will be between the two of them. I think that this episode with S22 that repeats past episodes at Father's Day, W's birthday, S22's birthday and Thanksgiving may bring to her notice the fact that what has happened between the two of us is affecting far more people than she may have thought. Tearing a family apart so that you can run off and "decide what will make me happy" has just made everyone miserable. A truth dart that I won't send. I honestly hate to think how much harder this would be if S22 knew about his mother's affair. Like most sons I believe he likes to think he's like his father (he's told me that). Honour, Duty and Loyalty are very important to him as well. I'd like to think though that like me, his Loyalty to his mother would transcend any of her actions.

A good friend of mine who after decades of an abusive relationship divorced her husband when he went into his own MLC has suggested that there is a strong likelihood that I will get some heart-felt, tearful contact from W over the holidays. I'm not sure how I will deal with that. Poorly - poorly is a strong possibility. Personally I doubt that W will reach out but being wrong is something I have a lot of practice with. If it does happen I'll do my best to be kind, supportive and open and try to think of it as nothing more than another temp check. Having labels for these things certainly helps even if I normally resist putting labels on things.

The plan is to try to have a good, peaceful time with S22 when he is around trying to keep things as "normal" as possible. No Disney Dad, no pressuring, accommodating him as much as is reasonable especially WRT getting together with his mother. I suspect he will want to go home again on Monday. I hope he spends some time with his old high-school friends when he's home. I'm giving one of them a ride tonight and will ask her to try to make some time for him. Even though I don't normally have it in the house I may also stock up on some snack / junk food.


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Hi Andrew, I'm glad your S has been back in touch.

I do think the holidays 'up' things on the feelings stakes. Some MLCers do seem to get in touch and acknowledge the holidays in some way. Normally it is a peek out, temp check or whatever we want to call it.

The main thing is just to expect it and not expect it. Should it happen, the main thing is to manage not to get into a spin about it. Your W is at a relatively early stage and there is a journey to complete yet..so, given all of that, there is really no need for you to worry...

Take care and enjoy the lead up to Xmas as much as you can, given all circumstances.

smile


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
My life right now is pretty darned good and I'm rather happy with it.


Originally Posted By: AndrewP
Tearing a family apart so that you can run off and "decide what will make me happy" has just made everyone miserable.


Just throwing this back out there for you to consider.


Glad to hear all is OK with your son. Glad to also hear about some effective communicating with W. Hope youre able to keep your spirits up through the holidays!

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Blech - Last night was the longest night of the year. I'm working from home again today and it took an effort of will to get out of bed today. It is also now exactly 6 months from when I gave W the letter begging her to reconcile. She still hasn't answered my question on it but that did mark the shift from her being on top of the world to being depressed.

I had to snap the old elastic a few times in the last couple of days just wanting to talk to W about reconciling or to just go out again for coffee or to go to a tropical island.

On the way home I overheard S22 tell his friend that I was giving a ride to on the phone that he would be seeing W on Boxing Day. I wonder when I'll get told. I need to figure out what to do - I'm thinking I'll go for a hike around when he gets picked up.

A lot of hard thinking is being done about the future. I still don't think that I'll file for D in January but beyond that I can't say. If only she would let me know what she wants .... Today's cogitation goes around the fact that if she did indeed plan on never coming back that she would have told me. One of the snaps of the elastic was me wanting to ask her to return her keys to the house, the mailbox and my car and to start taking her name off the banking etc. It would be so nice if she just "dealt" with things.

I'm in the midst of reading a self help book on Codependency - title or author not mentioned but it's a pretty standard one. I'm not getting too much out of it because other than after BD I never got very wrapped up in what W was doing and I've never tried to control her or anyone else. I've enabled yes, but not tried to make them do something they didn't want to. An interesting read nonetheless and certainly a warning for me to watch out in any possible future partner as I don't think I could stand living with someone who kept trying to change me or control me. Even though I may be somewhat broken still I don't want to become someone's "project".

I just found out that the dinner tonight that I am going to also has a few extra relatives invited who do not know that W and I are separated. I had thought it was just my brothers and their wives. Buggerit - now I need to deal with that too. I suppose we can't hide forever.

Well chest out, b@lls down and forward. This is going to be a very tough 10 days or so until New Years.

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Has she changed her mailing address? At some point, you may want to ask for the keys to your car. As for the home, unless she's coming there and getting things when you aren't home, I think I would leave that one alone for a while, i.e. I would take these actions in slow mode and if you aren't in any hurry, after the new year.

As for not being around when she picks up your son...I wouldn't go too far. In fact, I would have something baking in the oven so that the aroma is in the house, etc. You want her to miss those scents, etc. But, she may not even come in at this point.

As for the dinner, if someone inquires about your wife, I wouldn't go into detail about what's going on at the moment. If people ask, who know about the situation, just simply state it's a work in progress and leave it at that and then change the subject. Go and have fun, enjoy the time spent w/family and friends and definitely enjoy the dinner.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2722401 12/22/16 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: job
just simply state it's a work in progress and leave it at that and then change the subject. Go and have fun, enjoy the time spent w/family and friends and definitely enjoy the dinner.

Thanks job - I like that phrasing.

TBH I have no idea if she has changed her mailing address. I know that she was getting her mail redirected. Even in the best of times she didn't tend to deal with things or plan things out. She hasn't come to the door since July 22nd though. I almost wish that she would come and get things <sad smile>. I did mention to her that she had left one set of keys to her car here too. Some days this feels less like a separation than an "attenuation". While I know that I have full control over whether to wait for her or not I probably wouldn't be if she were more clear about what she wants and didn't essentially keep one foot in our home and in my heart. Perhaps she knows that - no way of telling. My mind-reading turban was misplaced some time ago so for now I'm going to go back to what Jack and you wrote to me many months ago, confusion is a common side-effect of MLC.

I was planning on starting work on a chicken pot pie by boiling the bones from the chicken we are having for Christmas dinner - that will be a nice scent in the house for me and anyone who may happen by.

job - If I don't write before, please have my best wishes for a very Merry Christmas for you and your family with peace, joy and love following you through the New Year and beyond. More and more I am finding myself less drawn to this place and feel less need to journal, research and question. I often read other people's posts and think to myself that I really should say something thoughtful and positive to them but the words just don't come.


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Andrew,

Have a blessed and safe holiday season. The new year is around the corner and w/it comes new beginnings in many areas of our lives. The holiday season is always full of wonder, peace and magical times. It is a time of giving of ourselves and visiting w/family and friends. However, let's not forget those who are in hospitals, assisted living facilities, nursing homes, shelters, our men and women who are away from home serving our country far and wide, as well as our furry pets at home and in shelters. Everyone needs our thoughts and prayers at this time of the year, but most importantly throughout the year.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all! The new year is rapidly approaching and we all have many new chapters to write in the coming year...let's make those chapters our own this coming year.


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Andrew Job,

May the Christmas Force Go With You!

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Andrew wishing you a beautiful Christmas ... that chicken pot pie sounds heavenly! Hoping you find the peace and joy of the season. {{{{{hugs}}}}}
xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
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A box full of darkness.
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AndrewP -

My Canadian brother, a big hug for you this holiday. I do love a chicken pot pie, but I decided to begin slower - gonna try some 3/4 pork chops with asparagus and home fried potatoes.

Be cool brother.


"There is no more important fight than the one for ourselves. Keep on winning." Ginger1, Read her newbies.
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AP-- have that pot pie Christmas. hugs, (as best as you can get from a star)

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Thank you my friends. I wasn't going to post anything today but what the heck. As many of you are as well I am sure, I am struggling today. I feel a bit guilty about that. Life is good. I have my health, a family who loves me, good friends. Many have so much less.

S22 came home on Friday night. We had a good ride home filling much of the ride with a podcast that we both enjoy. Very little to my surprise we had to stop so that he could buy gifts for me and his mother. He had some friends come by on Friday night and I went to bed early in part so that they could hang out without the old fart. We spent Saturday evening together watching Christmas movies. It has been a good visit. Very like his usual visits pre BD. He told me that he will be spending Boxing Day and the day after with his mother and that she will be coming to pick him up. He is vague about his plans beyond that.

Our gifts for D24 and her H have not arrived. Mine because they are stuck in the mail. 4 day guaranteed delivery has turned into almost 3 weeks of no delivery. Sigh. At least I have a tracking number. S22 left things to the last minute and his parcel is stuck in his mail-room to be picked up and then forwarded to his sister. A mid/late January Christmas for them. We had D24 and her H on Skype while we opened presents. I got a new bow tie and a lamp - both thoughtful gifts. French toast made with egg-nog instead of milk for breakfast. S22 seemed to quite like it. We joked a bit last night that the menu has a very "dad" slant to it mainly being things that we both like that are simple to make.

I did text a "Merry Christmas" to W last night - no response - no surprise. I have no indication from S22/D24 if they've heard from her but then I haven't asked. None of my business.

Dinner with my family on Thursday was good. My little nephew is a cuddle-bug who loves his Uncle A. Nobody asked about W and I never mentioned anything. I just felt burned out though and left fairly early.
While I was out grocery shopping Saturday I ran into a friend of W's who asked after her. She was shocked when I mentioned that I haven't really heard from her since July so couldn't tell her how she was doing. Later in the day a neighbour made a point of checking on me to ensure that I wouldn't be alone on Christmas. That was very kind of her.

I am stressed about the transfer of S22 from here to W. I'm figuring that it will in all likelihood be a non-event. Since S22 hasn't asked where anything is I presume she's not asking him to get any of her stuff ready for her. I was tempted to get things for S22 to put into W's Christmas stocking and did ask him if he wanted anything while I was shopping. He never told me and so I didn't buy anything. I am a bit disappointed that he's not even doing that for her but am leaving him be. I think he's pretty stressed about spending time with her too. It will be a bit weird for him I think. I've made a point of not being a "Disney Dad" - I actually used that phrase when I told him that I didn't have any grand adventures planned. This being his home though he's pretty comfortable here doing his own thing. There is nasty weather forecast for Boxing day so he and his mother will probably be cooped up in her apartment.

I've decided that after the New Year I am going to go through the pictures we have around the house and slowly swap out the ones that have W in them. I have digital copies of pretty much all the pictures that I want to keep plus a bunch that I don't so have packed many of the photos into boxes for W. S22 got her a digital photo album and spent much of Saturday going through the digital photos from the last 20+ years picking ones to put on it. I have no idea what ones he picked but it would be hard for him to avoid ones that don't show us as a happy family. I'm also going to pack up our wedding albums and put those with W's boxes. She can have them if she wants them.

The next big decision that I have to make is in January when our car club membership comes due. W has a secondary membership. The plan at the moment is to just pay the bill when it comes and not ask Mme Squirrel to make a decision about it. I am just getting so very tired of this and don't want to deal with anything any more. As I told a friend of mine before though when she commented that I did't "deserve" what was happening to me, you don't get what you "deserve". You get what you get and you need to deal with it.

According to the internet I need about 2 1/2 hours to roast up the 7lb chicken. Potatoes, vegetables, biscuits, dressing are on the menu with pie for desert. I have time for a bit of a hike. S22 went back to bed after breakfast - he sleeps an awful lot - probably a side-effect of his own depression.

Take care everyone.


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Seasons greetings AP! I hope your Christmas Day went well?

You have been such a comfort to many of us on here so it makes me sad to know that you are struggling . This time of the year as we all know is very hard but I think you are doing a great job continuing yout traditions for S22. I love the fact that he left it right to the last minute to buy gifts!!

Also as it comes to the end of the year we start reflecting on what we have been through and potentially what we will have to go through in the coming new year. That can be very scary and I for one am scared and exhausted with everything. I am also certain this time of the year can't be a bed of roses for our WS's either especially your W not spending Christmas day with her Children. I know I wouldn't know what to do with my self if I didn't see my D on a significant day such as this.

You have come a long way AP and I can see how much you have grown as a person in the way to look after yourself and your home and continue to stay positive for your D & S. As I have said before, although you don't agree with what your W has done, I admire how much you respect your W's need for space and even though you have been tempted to contact her on several occasions you have kept that boundary.

Keep doing things that make life more bearable for you whatever that might be and whether it affects your W directly or indirectly it should be for you. Make 2017 all about AP but keep that door slightly ajar so your W can see that you have left the light on for her and keep learning and adjusting.

Wishing you and your family peace and joy. Stay strong (((AP))).


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Coly23- Thank you so much for the kind words. They make me feel good.

Journaling

I am currently laughing at myself in a sad way. Here I am, nicely dressed complete with my Christmas earring on, freshly shaved with nice aftershave - alone. The house smells nice with the bones from last night's chicken bubbling away to make the stock for the chicken pot pies. All just for me. In some ways it was my "fault" as we are currently having freezing rain so I sent W a text that the driveway was a sheet of ice and that she might have trouble getting out of it if she drove down. Part of me wished that she would have been "stuck" here. I did stand in the living room watching her across the street picking up S22. W never got out of her car. I did ask S22 to wish her a Merry Christmas from me and to send her my love. I think that the next 2 days will be tough ones for her. Part of me wonders if she'll introduce him to OM or tell S22 about him but I don't expect that to happen. OM may even no longer be in the picture. I have no way of knowing but do suspect that.

I was slightly surprised that S22 didn't take W's warm coats etc. I never suggested it to him and presumably W didn't either. None of my business. Coly23 - you'll have another chuckle at this. S22 had to dash up to his room to wrap the gift he got for W this morning before he left. He and his mother are two of a kind - not very organized and always leaving things to the last minute.

One other slightly sad thing is the bit of "theatre" and "staging" I have done around the house - in large part for S22's benefit. Our wedding pictures are still prominently displayed and there are lots of family pictures up on the wall, in part replacing the art that W took. I want him to know - which I am sure he does - that I still consider W to be part of our family and that I am very attached to her. I didn't want him to think that I was trying to erase her from my life. The pictures will be changing in the New Year. There are also lots of roses around the house. I am still buying 2 each week but with the colder weather they are lasting longer than a week so I got out 2 more bud vases and now have roses on the two bedside tables as well as on my desk and dresser.

W is bringing S22 back on Tuesday evening and he'll spend Wednesday here alone and I'll take him back to his apartment on Thursday morning. I had hoped he would have stayed longer but am grateful for the time I have had with him.

Christmas dinner went well. The dressing was out of a box but was the variety that W used to make and I made it similarly to her. I did have a minor "adventure in housekeeping" foolishly thinking to warm up the pie in front of the vent from the oven which caused the crust to get damp from the steam. It all worked out though. The chicken turned out quite nicely. After dinner S22 vanished into his room as usual and I was surprised when the next door neighbour rang my bell and invited me over to play dominoes. S22 was planning on a walk and so I went over for a drink and a couple of games of dominoes and a visit. There were some polite enquiries about my situation and offers of sympathy and support which I appreciated. I didn't mention the affair at all just that W continues to not give me any indication of her future plans and that it leaves me stuck. For right or wrong one thing that will probably come out of this is a big bump up in the rumour mill with a positive slant on me. This neighbour is part of a very large and established family with ties throughout the area. Family connections are incredibly important here. It's funny - W barely tolerated these neighbours but I always got along with them fine.

Well - this is a good day to nest with a good book. Unfortunately I am working though the co-dependency self help book but I should be done that before too long. I have some egg-nog and left-overs from Christmas dinner so it should be a low stress day. I may do my ironing today or perhaps tomorrow. I do still feel blah but with the hand-off of S22 half over my stress level is down.


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Even though things were quiet in your world, you still had a pleasant time of it w/your son and also visiting w/your neighbors.

I am sure your dinner was delicious and the pie was a success as well. Your son, even though he doesn't say much, appreciated your efforts. I do hope that in the new year that he'll consider some therapy. He does sound like he's a bit depressed.

Enjoy the rest of your day and try not to over think what is going on in your wife's world. It could be that they are just sitting around in her place, eating and watching TV.

Take care.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Blah! And a Bah Humbug thrown in for good measure.

Journaling

Well - I've survived thus far. I knew that these couple of weeks would be tough and yes, they are. Not quite as bad as they might have been in large part I think because I knew in advance that they would be tough. I am currently sitting here with a glass of Lait de Poule (egg nog for those not playing the home game) and the remaining treats from a generous neighbour. I not only have cinnamon but found not one, but 3 containers of nutmeg while tidying the kitchen. The roast chicken has been turned into chicken stew / potential pot pie and is pretty darned good if I do say so myself. There is about 8 servings of it in the fridge freezer for a future date. I spent a portion of Tuesday emptying the cupboards, scrubbing them and then putting stuff back in. I found a bunch of stuff that I didn't know that I had (ever), a certain amount of mouse-poop and a bunch of stuff that was thrown out as expired. It felt good to accomplish that. W always had actively resisted me doing this sort of stuff because it was "her's".

S22 was delivered home on Tuesday evening rather earlier than expected via a drive-by delivery. W just dropped him off at the street. Even though it was early I was already in bed reading so got up to say "hello". S22 was quite cheerful and appeared to have had a good visit. Little interrogating was done and I headed to bed.

Wednesday I headed off to work for an early meeting and noticed through the day that the camera in the home office had gone off. Checking the footage when I had a minute I had two scenes of S22 entering the office. The first one was just odd. He came in in his housecoat, went to my desk and then sliding his phone from one hand reached over one corner then turned and left opening the texting app. A few moments later he came back in, went again to my desk and appeared to take something out of his pocket and place it on the desk. He then turned, texting some more and left. Later in the day he returned to (it appears) reset the router which disconnected the cameras for a short while. I resisted the urge to contact or ask S22 what was up and this morning checked my desk and there appears to have been nothing moved or added. I was once asked by a friend if I trusted S22. I replied that I trusted him completely to do whatever it would take to protect his mother. No clue what happened here, possibly nothing involving W and certainly there was no risk to me. I've said all along that I have no secrets and the D papers I did up some months ago aren't stored in the office. It's sad and I'm upset with myself that I found myself not trusting my own son.

This morning I got S22 up at before the crack of dawn and drove him home and then myself to work. I do confess that I was a bit annoyed at W for leaving both ends of the transport to me. It ended up making me 2 hours late for work but on the other hand I got some more time with S22 - and the rubber hose ;-) I tried to keep the interrogating to a minimum. "What did you get for Christmas?", "How is the health of your Mother's family?" "How is she doing?" "How is the dog?" got polite responses. "Do you have any idea what her plans are" got a short negative answer. Nagging about S22 moving home was poorly received with a comment that his mother had been doing the same nagging. I did startle him a bit by mentioning that I had been thinking about asking out a lady that I knew and startled him even more when I mentioned that his Aunt (SIL1) had invited a minor celebrity who I am a fan of up (who is single, female, very attractive, of an appropriate age and completely out of my league) from Manhatten to visit this summer and that she was going to make a point of introducing us. Eventually despite the interference of the water-boarding team and some poor driving weather S22 was delivered to his apartment, I got a big hug and then went on my day. No clue if any of this will make it back to W (I doubt it), but I have no secrets. I also want to prepare both kids for the possibility that at some point dear old Dad might be dating. They've "said" that they would be OK with it but I figure it will take some time for them to get their heads around it as it will me too.

One of the reasons I'm blah today is that deep down, even though I "knew" it wouldn't happen, I had been hoping for a "Christmas miracle". Nope - no miracles here other than finding the nutmeg. I want to thank you job for keeping the message blasting at me - keep the expectations low.

This morning I had a bit of a LOL that I shared with the SIL army. I was browsing a Pintrest site that had "inspirational quotes for people going through divorce". As I was scrolling an advertisement for a variety of wine that I like popped up. Yep! They know their audience and what inspires them wink

I've also been doing a bunch of reading about the legal process of setting up a separation agreement here in Ontario, Canada. There is a wide variation of prices with different mediation / collaboration / court options available, each espousing that their way is the most cost effective and enforcable way. One thing that I stumbled on that I found very interesting that was not intended for someone in my situation was a comment on the one site that encouraged people to file for separation as soon as possible. It said that the longer "you" as a spouse manage on your own without needing to access the other partner's finances, the more the court would look at you as not needing it. In my case, certainly a reason to put off getting a formal separation.

The only other things of note are that I've now closed down the joint books and replaced them with ones that just reflect my own activity as of August 1st. I also collected together a variety of files between DropBox and Google Drive, consolidated them together and sent W a brief note letting her know that "her" files were there and that after she copied them to her computer to feel free to delete them because I didn't need them. No clue if she'll ever actually do this. I rather doubt it. I'm starting to make a mental list of other things that will need to be dis-entangled to make my life simpler and how I will approach them. An overwhelming list may well wake up the monster (who has never made an appearance to date) whereas a drip of regular disconnects as I think of them would perhaps just be annoying. I would like the keys to my car and the house returned though.

Well - almost to be bottom of the glass. Time to go visit some friends here and then off to bed. It's a short day tomorrow and I'm thinking of taking myself out to dinner and perhaps a movie. I still have to get through New Year's - especially without contacting W. <Snap!> goes the elastic on my wrist.


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Is it possible S22 was just checking bars or trying to get on your internet?
I think dealing with finances and other things she let drop is a good thing. As well as getting back car and house keys. That's interesting about the separation agreement-- I never thought of it that way, that getting one pronto would result in maybe more $$. Well, none of that applies to me, but is interesting all the same.
One more AP! New years!


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AHA?

I re-watched the surveillance video and from what I can tell it makes no sense. Keep in mind that this is egg-nog inspired (lots of protein and calories in that). On my desk beside my wedding photo, statue of Don Quixote and my rose is a small Christmas ornament that is new this year. It was actually one of those "free" gifts that I got at the open-house at the flower shop where I get my roses. W would never have seen this before.

As far as I can tell, that is the item that S22 removed from the office and then returned. Conspiracy theories say that W wanted to know what it was and if there was anything written on it (there isn't - it was a generic "door prize" - I could have chosen it or a scented candle).

Ah well - mystery "solved". More MLC weirdness I suppose that involved her getting a guy on "the inside".

Either that or I've gone mad myself - testicles, spectacles, marbles ...


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You've not gone mad. Maybe your son saw the ornament and made a comment to his mother about it. There is the possibility that he was taking a photo of it to send to her and she then questioned him about it and he had to take it out of the room and thoroughly check it over to see if there was a name, etc. identifying where it came from.

Don't put anything past the MLCer. They use others to get their info, especially if they are very curious about something and do not want to appear that they are.

Just my two cents.

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I dunno Andrew - it's mystifying to me as well, and I've not had any Lait de Poule ... I'm excessively impressed with your cabinet scrubbing and cleaning. I need to do a whole lot of that over here as well ... I seem to be working on the furniture moving - moved a sleeper loveseat to the office and the chaise and love seat from the office to the living room ALL BY MYSELF! ... sorry, a tad proud of that ... anyway, what I'm trying to say is "Avoid the Cheeseless Tunnels" ... it's taken me a while to figure out the many ways they can present themselves. I've decided that trying to figure out the MLC mind is one of those ways. The problem is we apply logic where logic has long since left the building, if not the city, and perhaps even the country.

I'm sorry you are left feeling that you cannot trust S22. I understand. I think you've done quite an admirable job of not putting your children in a position of having to take sides, or defend one parent vs the other. It's difficult in these situations and you are to be commended. I also think it's good to let the kiddos know that you are moving forward in your personal life. A man who cooks, can tidy up, is well read and contemplative - don't know why you think the minor celebrity is out of your league... you're probably the most "real" person she will meet in 2017. Just keep moving forward, you will get through the next few days, I promise.

How about setting some intentions for 2017? I'm banning resolutions in favor of intentions. Intentions are a bit different, in my mind, as they are more about goals than resolutions which to me seem as absolutes "I will/will not do xyz" which set one up for failure.

If you believe in these things, 2016 is a "9" year - meaning end of a cycle. 2017 is a "1" year which is a new cycle. What do you want to bring into the new cycle and what is past its expiration date, like those items you discarded. I do not mean to imply your marriage, to be clear. However, there may be certain dynamics/patterns which play out there and in other relationships which no longer serve you. Only you can determine this. I just throw it out there as grist for the mill as you move into the new year, as its a topic which I've been contemplating quite a bit lately myself.

Wishing you peace, solitude rather than loneliness, and companionship ... prosperity, love and joy in the year ahead.

xoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
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Happy New Year my friends. I remember writing quite some time ago that I would dearly love to get my hands on the forum database. Not to look for some "magical secret" but more from a a process and analytical point of view because I love statistics like that. What is the pattern of new arrivals? How long do people lurk before the post? What is the frequency of posting? How long do people stay on the forums before moving on? Does this forum actually drive a significant amount of traffic to MWD book sales and counseling services? Etc Etc. I haven't seen one thing that I expected which is a big bump up in posts today - New Years Day. A day for me at least of reflection and renewal.

New Year's Eve was tough but fairly good. After a nice dinner of roast pork and potatoes I watched a bunch of NetFlix, drank some beer and ate some food that was bad for me. I did not send any sort of message to W although she did take a look at the SnapChat I posted right around midnight. I of course heard nothing from her. A dear friend kept me company via text message through the evening regularly reminding me to not text W. She had had company earlier in the evening but spent the end of it alone as well. We haven't seen each other in some months and I managed to convince her to have dinner with me in a couple of weeks. I sent Happy New Year greetings to S22/D24 which were returned. That made me feel good.

These few days around the New Years have always been a time for me to organize and tidy. Usually confined to my workshop but this year I have full roam of the house. I added 4 more boxes to the pile in the front porch including our wedding photo albums. A huge pile of what I had thought were rags in the laundry room yielded up a few nice blankets. Now that I have that corner dealt with I can go forward and get that room whipped into shape as well. I also did up my annual shredding posting a picture on SnapChat for D24/S22 to see as a reminder that they should also be doing a similar tidy. It included a shot of my desk - which no longer has a wedding photo on it.

Even though it's contrary to what I've been writing here, I've been telling myself and others that after the New Year that I have some tough decisions to make. I honestly don't know what that result of that decision is yet. I may get a whack with a 2X4 for this but I have indeed been keeping the lines of communication open with the nice lady who sells me my flowers. I've not asked her out nor has she asked me. I have no clue if the interest that I see is real or just a figment of my imagination either. She wasn't working this past weekend but I did mention to her co-worker that I was working through some tough decisions and would be happy to see the end of 2016. I expect that will explain to her why I've not asked her out and she does know that it has "only" been 6 months since W walked out. I don't believe I told her that this has been going on since March.

While the 2X4s are swinging, I also went on to Facebook and updated my marital status to Separated and added a "life event" for BD1 setting that as the separation date. If you set the audience of this information to "just me" it does not appear on any news-feeds visible to others. I went on to my newsfeed and then removed the "life event" posting so this information won't accidentally be broadcast. One of the decisions I need to make is if / when I make this information available to anyone who happens to look.

Over the last week or so I've also updated my information with Revenue Canada to be separated and have been going through bills to attempt remove W's name from them. Annoyingly most places reasonably require written consent from W to do that.

Like Altair posted on her thread I too am struggling with the whole "sh!t or get off the pot" thing with my W. I am in a trap of my own choosing and construction allowing her the peace and space to "find herself" and make up her own mind without interference from me. More and more from what I see in the narrow window I have she is becoming more "normal". That doesn't mean though that she's coming home. Perhaps her posts about being strong, love and family and making choices and decisions are intended for OM and her "other" family. I can't know. I expect that if I asked that she would not answer.

Perhaps because she very likely expected it and I felt like disappointing her, I have taken no overt action with regards to our situation today. A single posting that said "Happy New Year everyone. Time for fresh starts and putting the past behind me" is all that is obvious. What is not obvious is that I have now blocked W from my SnapChat story. If she wants to know what's going on in my life or to see the latest antics of the cats she can ask. Generally I post something daily but it will probably take her a few days to notice if she does notice it at all. I suspect that she will and that she will find it worrisome. From "footprints" that get left I know that she's done a pretty close review of the new "AndrewP only" budget. I'm not sure when / if I'm going to close that down. The sneaky b@stard part of me wants to be sure that our old books have been replaced on her computer by the new ones which will only be done by her using each of her devices to look at the new budget. This is to remove her visibility of historical financial information. The less she has access to, the more control I will have during any financial disclosure during a separation process.

I had hoped that writing this here today would help me form my thoughts more. Unusually it hasn't. I am conflicted between what I want, what my feelings of Duty tell me, what I can achieve on my own, and what is real.

What I want is for her to make up her mind and tell me if she is done and leaving and to initiate the process for separation and divorce.

Duty tells me that as long as there is ANY chance that W will want to come home that I must stand firm.

What I can achieve on my own is to continue to build as full of a life as I can. While I know that I can indeed have a fulfilling life on my own that isn't what I want. Honour requires me to first let W know that the door is closed before even exploring another relationship. I did in part when I told her that I was considering dating to which she had replied "I wouldn't blame you" which was an incredibly unhelpful comment that couldn't have been more carefully crafted to keep me hanging.

What I can also achieve is to no longer conceal that I am separated which will also help free me to explore other relationships openly.

Another thing that I can achieve is to do all the heavy lifting of arranging a separation agreement knowing that if I do that I will not fare as well in the settlement as I would if it was something that W was pushing for. Doing this would also push W away and cost me several thousand dollars just to ante up into the game. Money I'd rather not spend.

What is real is that yes, I do still love W. I also want to be loved. I have never believed in having a "soul mate" or "the one". That is why I think we had such a good marriage for so many years because I at least knew that you had to accept the bad with the good and that you had to work at it. I know when she was younger that W believed in soul mates. She did do a pretty good job of accepting my flaws I thought as well. Since BD1 I have done more to love and support W than probably 99% of the men in this world would have done. I have endured scorn, having the affair rubbed in my face, been lied to and also by omission lied myself. Through it all I have been true to myself standing tall and proudly holding my lance while being buffeted by blows both from outside and within.

But I am tired my friends. So very tired. Earlier in my time here on the MLC forums people were very careful to not mention to me what sort of time span could be involved. They quite honestly said that the amount of time it will take for W to complete her journey is the amount of time it will take. More recently people with perfectly good intentions have regularly commented "you are early into this" and then I see others who have been Standing without a glimmer of hope for multiple years.

Well - that's about all I have in me right now. Time to go out and yet again clear out the driveway and gather up the Christmas decorations. Instead of just packing them away as usual I am going to decide which ones I am keeping and then put the rest with the boxes for W. The boxes that have been sitting since July with no sign that she will ever come for them.

Just a normal, quiet day in the Cabin.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Wow, A.P., you are making changes. It all sounds positive for you to me. I'm on a very similar if not same page, of course.
re, your thoughts of analyzing the stats of this place- I've had exactly the same thoughts. Well, it could absolutely be done. this is an open web forum. you could easily set up a scraper and get every last post on here. The data is rather messy so there would be a lot of cleaning involved. For example, the signatures are not standardized, you'd have to clean up bomb drops and such. Pattern of new arrivals- easy to query by user+ first post on earliest date. (those name changers though will affect results but I wager name-changers are outliers). How long do people lurk before posting? A tougher one-- but they start or get moved to newcomers. You'd run a script with keywords and phrases (particularly the word "lurk") and with some machine learning (if you're fancy) or plain old hand-analysis, you could get a number. I'd guess it's 2-4 months on average, based on my already-have-thought-about-this. You? Frequency of posting- again, pretty easy by username. (This is a PHP-webforum I am familiar with, lol) My guess with this one is there's probably a few categories of people that fall into certain frequency patterns. Like say someone, posting for like say, a year pretty frequently, entering D or piecing or just wiped out, taking a break, coming back sporadically to report for the next few years and lessening each time is a pretty common one. Forum driving book sales and counseling? I would say absolutely. I'm leery of buying self-help books without seeing the philosophy behind them myself.
I have resisted doing this webscrape although it is a treasure trove of data (and already anonymized, and could even be more so by not scraping location, etc., of which well, you could do a world map)
One reason I resist is I think I already know what I would find. I really doubt I'd find any surprises? What does that mean? Well, it does mean some things for the state of my marriage, for sure...
OK I geeked out on your thread. I was actually doing some work so that's where my brain is at-- analysis-- so best to leave it there, otherwise I'll sit here and eat jellybeans and cry, and that's no good. Over and out.


me 42 H 32
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M 6yr
BD 5/2016 ILYBNILWY
Separated 7/2016
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I guess I should add this for non-computer people-- this is not done by breaking into the system, this is getting everything on here via the web that we can all see. Since this is a public forum, that's why our dear moderators keep all identifying information out smile


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Altair - I've written scrapers before and while they are great at pulling a large amount of data you are absolutely correct that the data is pretty un-organized. I suppose if I wanted to I could probably figure out how to pull the actual database which would at least be somewhat organized but hacking a friend's server isn't really kosher.

I was originally considering churn rate as the most interesting metric but you are right - doing a broad categorization of visitor by gender and relationship type would add a lot of depth to that analysis. I think that this is a great resource that MWD and her team have supplied and am grateful for it. I think that they are a bit light on the tech side themselves but the site keeps running and does what it needs to do. They are also quite discreet and polite about offering their services - Cristy's posts are always thoughtful, appropriate and not a shameless plug. I think we all appreciate that bills need to be paid and there is no "free lunch".

Determining outcomes would be a very tricky bit of analysis. I think that many people who come here leave part-way through their journeys so figuring that out would be tricky.

Anyway - enough shop talk for now. We must indeed visit IRL when you come up to Toronto. I suspect that we'll bore the pants off of anyone who eaves-drops.

I'm off to find some jelly-beans now myself and try to hold it together while splitting up the Christmas stuff.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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Hi Andrew - Happy New Year! I do so enjoy reading your thoughtful posts. You are so eloquent. Just wish all of our posts were prompted by more pleasant subject matter.

Our timelines are only a few months apart - but you seem so much better at detaching than I am. I like that you have taken control and tried to remove W's name, packed her stuff, etc. So empowering for you, regardless which plans you follow through on. I am honestly too consumed with fear to take those steps. Not fear that I will not survive without H and my M, I will. But fear that I will push H further away. To give the impression that I am anxious to have a final decision that I may not be happy with. So, pat yourself on the back! And Altair - pass the jelly beans. I could use a handful right about now....


M:49 H:49
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Andrew- deal on Toronto. I'll look into taking a trip out there before June. We'll talk about databases and chicken milk.
I agree- determining outcomes would be super tricky. Over my work life, it would be stuff like this that would cause arguments with co-workers who would try to majorly extrapolate and make some crazy claim and my brain would freeze-- aaahhhhhh you can't do that!--- and I try to be nice and explain why it can't be done.
In fact right now a co-worker is doing a particular data analysis, she jumped on doing it I think to show she can, I'm not happy with what I am seeing, but am biting my tongue. I might let it go, but I'm the lead on this one, eh, we shall see.
Not that I haven't gotten along with co-workers over the course of my career, because I feel I do, but I'm trying to look at DB principles and whatnot in my worklife to see if there's improvements I can work on. Our team is mixed technical/non technical which presents a challenge.

OK one more ramble--
The best way to do a (longitudinal ) study on this site-
1. when members join, have a robust intake survey collecting bomb drop, etc.
2. the db (as in database) analysis of activity over time
3. random sample of people ideally from years ago who agree to follow up surveys
4. control for whatever..Look for correlations!
5. super cool to compare to general populations somehow

Anyway, back to my own, sparse, not-scrapeable, messy, old, disparate datasets...


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M 6yr
BD 5/2016 ILYBNILWY
Separated 7/2016
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d-rose, here's a handful of the jelly belly mixed (not tropical or sour). Very Ronald Reagan style. Don't worry about pushing H away. Your fear will hold you back from being strong. You need to be strong!


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Andrew, you are certainly asking yourself all the right questions. I remember how scared I felt when I first read the MLC chapter in MWD's Divorce Remedy. I knew that she'd written it while somehow being in my house, as it fit our situation to a "T" and I also realized just what I was up against, especially in terms of time frame to resolution.

In my situation I opted to let my wasband do all the heavy lifting. We didn't meet for mediation unless he initiated it, we didn't do anything without him initiating it. It didn't stop our divorce, sadly, but I think it slowed things down. The downsideiocles hanging overhead, just waiting for my husband to cut the cord. It was very stressful, but the thought of initiating it myself was even more painful to me. That's how it played out for me anyway. I think you are right to ask these questions and to continue to contemplate. I like that you are not "in your face" about the separation but not allowing cake eating either.

Happy New Year! I wish you peace and happiness.

xoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Andrew

Reading along and catching up. Thing with this crisis is ... well there is not a timeline nor a guaranteed ending at the end of it. I too was one who looked/read/studied on various sites and compiled a ton of information figuring I could put all that info up on my war-board and improve my odds. Thing is ... what everyone says is the truth .. 'The crisis takes as long as it will take' and sadly we all can agree its not weeks nor months.

Reading you as I have its obvious to me that you are used to being in control, and you currently find yourself in Limbo and you are struggling with it as we all have/do. In response you will do things to try to get a reaction from your MLCr ... facebook posts, SnapChat blocking, hinting to your kids that you might be dating ... this is all normal but will not really get you anywhere when done for reasons outside of yourself. But like me you will have to learn this on your own I am simply planting a seed here hoping you will down the road.

What many here will push for you is what you are starting to do ... begin looking inward and making changes for yourself. You will need to do this regardless if she comes back or not. Its hard and it stinks but is is required for you to become a success story.


M: 48
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BD Sept13



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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Reading you as I have its obvious to me that you are used to being in control, and you currently find yourself in Limbo and you are struggling with it as we all have/do. In response you will do things to try to get a reaction from your MLCr ... facebook posts, SnapChat blocking, hinting to your kids that you might be dating ... this is all normal but will not really get you anywhere when done for reasons outside of yourself.
CaliGuy - Thanks for the visit and comments. As usual you are insightful.

The bolded bit is just something perhaps for further discussion or thought. It is both true and false. The rest is absolutely true. Some things gelled for me today as I went for my walk - about 7km at 0 celcius - very bracing in gorgeous sunshine. The way that I make decisions is to gather facts and then let them stew until they form themselves into an answer. As I am sure you have noticed writing long rambling posts here is also part of the process. None of my friends IRL have the patience for this sort of thing from me so I am grateful to you and the others for your patience with me. Perhaps this process is not as deliberate as some people but it works for me and I rarely regret decisions I make this way. Today's walk has perhaps given me some more insights to the point where I may be able to address your comments.

We'll ignore the bit where I accept that what you wrote and I bolded is true. Since BD1 on March 9th I've been expecting my W to leave and divorce me. I accepted that immediately even while struggling against it. She never said that she wanted a divorce though, just that she was leaving and several times she said that her leaving was temporary which I both believed and didn't believe. The fact that my W hung around the house for months and then moved out on her own all the while (presumably) carrying on her affair but never trying to bring anything at home to a conclusion was and is a source of confusion to me. Odd as it may sound, even though I hoped that she would come back home and reconcile I never really expected her to. Sometimes hope would surge and I would have a temporary expectation but that hope would get quickly crushed.

Since BD1 and accelerated after she moved out, I've been slowly purging W from my world. The slowness of this is yes in part calculated to catch her attention, it is also in part reluctance on my part to take those steps and lastly it is because I kept expecting her to be the initiator and not me. Those darned expectations again. As far as I can tell nothing that I have done has provided any W flavoured cheese down any tunnel. It has however provided me with some of my own cheese. All of the stuff she left behind even though she has said she wants it remains here. Even very simple things like moving digital files off of accounts that I control has not been done. I am indeed very confused by her indecisiveness about these simple things. I largely put it down to confusion on her own part along with fear. The fear I both understand and don't. I have never given her any cause to fear me but I do believe that she does perhaps because we both recognize that I do have a huge amount of power that could be wielded here. Taking this within the context of "believe nothing that they say and only half that they do" the consistency of her not doing anything to make a split from me permanent and to keep one foot and a hand in my home and my life stands out.

I settled down here to think and to try to see what Andrew 4.0 will be like. Presuming as I do that W will never come home it is my hope to at some point find someone new. As a courtesy and out of respect for my children I have let them know this - I don't want to be the Dad that suddenly shows up with some floozie on his arm - and after-all S22 has asked that any young floozies be sent his way wink The other recent actions are setups for possible future action such as filing for separation and making the separation public so that I can more openly move on with my life apart from her. For example today I have adjusted a couple of banking issues to protect myself as well as working to get W's name off of bills. Since she doesn't know about any of that it certainly won't get her attention until after the fact.

I wrote recently on ForGump's thread about problem solving and how one of the struggles that I have is having multiple end-points for my journey. I have no clue where my path will take me which is why I am taking slow, deliberate steps along it making sure that my options are covered and that I am true to myself. My most recent rambling posting is related to the fact that very soon I will have reached my personal Rubicon - the point of no return. If I start dating that greatly reduces the chance that W will be accepted back. If I file for separation I'll be out several thousands of dollars for a benefit to myself that I am unclear of along with the worry that W would not cooperate in the process.

So I am in perhaps in the process of moving out of the Cabin to sit in a nice cafe in Ravenna to drink some wine and think some more. Do I cross that river or do I order the pasta? I really don't know and until I do know, here I sit.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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I thought that would bump me into the next page. Thank you CaliGuy for inspiring the next thread title.

Sitting in the cafe in Ravenna
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2723725&#Post2723725


I just have some time to get the ironing done before closing up the Cabin. Thank you to everyone who has come to call - feel free to join me over at the cafe. The wine is reputed to be quite fine.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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