A WW? (6)

[fade]

Well, if you want to live the rest of your life as it is now, then keep doing what you are doing and this will last forever. Or at least until your WW finds OM3 or 4 or 5 who is foolish enough to buy the cow and not just drink the milk.

But if you ever want a different outcome, you need to actually overcome your fear to make the scary decisions and do the hard work to take a different path.

[ForGump]

LT, sorry if you already wrote about this but ... what do you think you would do if your daughter was not a part of the picture?

[lt0402]

Well, I promise I haven't been avoiding all of you. Still slammed at work, though trying not to get sucked into the "all work, all the time" mode I'd been in pre-BD. To be honest, things are just kind of going sideways right now. W still won't engage me, but there are moments of quasi-warmth, though they are few and far between. The outright disrespect has been quiet for some time now. She seems to cycle between neutral and anxious/angry (current mood this evening), but hasn't done anything to try to repair anything M wise.

D and I still have a lot of good stuff going on w/ our relationship. Went to her appointment 2 weeks ago to get her braces off and then showed up unexpectedly at the one to get her retainer fitted. She seemed happy and surprised to see me at that last week. Made me happy that she was excited by it. Also surprised her and took off early on Friday to get her off the bus. At the very least, I've gotten one great thing out of this and it's a strong R w/ my D. Love where we are as a team!

My GAL has been ok. Been meeting up w/ friends and coworkers off and on. I've been meaning to get up to the mountains again for another long hike but have yet to make it. Will force myself one of these Saturday mornings. Gym time has been lacking as I've gotten myself home earlier to spend more time with my D. Still running most mornings, but the weights have taken a precipitous dive. Hammering out how best to manage that and still spend the most time w/ my D.

Onto some long overdue responses. Sorry for not poking my head in sooner. It's a mixture of being tired and not being able to find 30 minutes to sit in front of the PC. Know that I appreciate any and all advice from each of you. You really have been the people keeping the light in my lighthouse functioning these past few months.

LT-

I think you write very openly and honestly in this forum, which leaves you vulnerable to a lot of critiques from various people. That shows some resilience and strength on your part.

What is your W's motivation for wanting to go back to MC? Is it purely to vent?

I think I've said this before, but your W sounds like she suffers from a pretty serious anxiety disorder and likely other related issues. You're one hell of a spouse, and I don't think she'll be the type of person you deserve until and unless she admits to and deals with her disorder(s) in earnest. Would you agree?

Thanks FG. I figure if I put it all out there then I can get some informed feedback and hopefully provide someone else after me with some detailed ideas to attack this kind of thing. Part selfish, part hoping others find it useful. I'm definitely open to any and all advice/feedback, regardless of how difficult it can be to hear, bc it helps me see viewpoints I'd otherwise miss. Kind of an approach of gathering as much data as possible, but still making and taking ownership of my final decision of how to act. At the end of the day I'm responsible for myself and always own my actions.

Unsure of my Ws motivation to go back to the MC. Out of the blue a month ago she announced I needed to be nicer to her if we were going to "stay married to each other for years". We went back and forth on email around the co-parenting counselor (W hated her) and going back to the previous MC (no thanks) and are now in a weird limbo w/ us not having finished the conversation. Partly due to my being too busy at work to look for a new MC and partly probably me avoiding it...not good. Regardless, this is on my list this week to find and interview a few MCs and put that in front of W.

Appreciate your thoughts on me being a good spouse. I think I'm a much better one now than I was in the past. Gaining a better understanding of what may be affecting my W (anxiety, OCD, etc.) has strangely given me better sight into what's driving her and helped me to stand up against it. For better or worse, I'm unwilling to allow her anxiety to drive my D and I and am picking spots to push back or outright tell my W no. Not easy, but necessary, regardless of the outcome of this thing. In short, I do agree that her anxiety can't run our lives anymore. I do agree that, in her current state, she doesn't deserve me as a spouse and I don't deserve the spew or coldness she returns to me.

I do find myself wondering how long I want to do this. I've no doubt I can grind this thing out as long as needed. My IC acknowledges that and wants me to think about putting a time limit on it so I don't get stuck in grinding mode. I honestly find myself thinking that I don't want to live my life w/ a person who is like this. If my W won't change then I've got some difficult choices to make. IC suggests if I decide to go this route that I sit down and tell it to W so she knows that I won't be here forever and that I'm willing to take leadership of the situation. Not a bad idea, but still swirling this one around in my brain.

To your other question around what would I do if our daughter wasn't in the picture. For the past couple months this question has been tugging at me. I go back and forth on the answer. In June I'd of told you I'd fight till the ends of the earth for my W. Now I'm not so sure anymore. Part of me says that I'd let her go, pack up my stuff, and relocate and start over somewhere else. Not really running from things, but truly taking the tact of focusing on me and massive new GAL opportunities. Hell, one month ago, I was fully ready to let my W go and preparing for 50/50 custody of my D. I'd accepted it and thought we were just about there. it's strange to get pulled back into all of this.

The one thing that's reverberating in my head right now is I told W throughout this that going back to our MR would not be the same as it was before. I need to make good on that promise, and start that change for us. Whether she grabs onto that change or not, I've said I'd do it and I intend to push towards it. She will see someone who keeps his word and won't bow to her moods/anxiety anymore.

So you say you have detached but then you mentioned asking her to do things, asking her to go places, making her special meals, doing things around the house, having relationship talks, considering telling W that OM's gf reached out , etc...... you are also constantly monitoring her emotions and reactions to things. May want to re-read the threads on detaching

Also, I strongly cannot recommend enough to you that you don't go back to that MC. Your only reasoning for leaning towards going is for your W benefit and your W only wants to go to hear further validation your M is over. Why would you want to support that?

j2, I definitely appreciate the thoughts. One thing I'd offer though, is that it's healthy to monitor her reactions/moods/etc. I think it's unhealthy to allow those reactions/moods/etc. drive my own reactions/moods/etc. When I offer that I've been detached, it's more around having disallowed her moods/anxiety to drive what I'm doing/feeling. Now, my actions are purely driven by two questions. Is it the right thing to do? and am I doing it for the right reasons?. If the answer to both is yes then I proceed, regardless of what the response from my W will be. I'm living life now for my D and I, not for my W and her anxiety. Does that make sense?

On the R talks, those have been shut down for awhile. The one on the burner now is more wrapped around this co-parenting vs. MC thing. Haven't had any of the hour long, circular conversations in quite some time luckily. Those were the worst and really wore on me.

Around me doing some nice things for her, they were more for me than her I think. First, I'm trying to get some data points around where she stands. Second, doing those things just really made me feel a lot better about myself. Not sure what it was about making that stuffing for her, but it made me feel really good that I could make it and that I did. Sounds silly, but that's pretty much it. On the bathroom remodeling, it's an opportunity for me to highlight we can still partner together to do stuff. Were she expecting me to do it all I'd tell her to pound sand, but it's 50/50 and I think a good exercise in flexing teamwork muscles that haven't been worked in awhile. Open to thoughts around all of that of course!

J2, your last set of thoughts really weighed on me the last week or so and I agree. It could be that my W is looking for someone to validate her and if so the previous MC would be bad news for her. I was trying to get my W to see that MC as an IC bc she did see the anxiety/anger in my W and offered to work w/ her on it. W has not intention of taking her up on it, but even if it meant the end of my M, I'd hoped it would at least put my W in a better spot for both her and my D.

AP, as always it's great to see you come over and visit! My motivation around telling W about my ex-gf was more wrapped around being open about everything. Effectively showing her that in a healthy M a partner shares something like that. But you are right, we are not currently in a healthy M and it would add nothing beneficial to the situation as it stands right now. Definitely not trying to make my W jealous, but I could see how it may come off that way. More just building trust, though I don't think that building can occur right now.

Surfer, as always, appreciate the advice. You're going through some ups and downs right now it seems, but you always have a great grasp on yourself and where you are. Luckily I haven't been weapons hot since W got back from the second OM visit at the beginning of Aug. She's somewhat dropped trying to goad me into arguments/fights, partly, I think, bc I wasn't falling for it. I'll stand for my boundaries, but won't engage in her petty stuff anymore. Even when standing for my boundaries, it's firm but w/o anger. I've realized that I'm better than that, and as you so aptly put it, I, like you, have integrity. Haven't seen mules in awhile, but strength and honor as my man so perfectly puts it.

The good news is that I've removed most of the rollercoaster riding for both myself and my D. My D still has to live some of it bc of the angst my W imparts on the household at times, but it doesn't weigh on me anymore. I more observe, take mental notes, and go about my business. If I have an opportunity to interject something that helps with my goal, then I do. otherwise, I leave her to her own devices, so long as it's not affecting me or D. The reason I asked her to watch a movie one night was bc I didn't want her to be able to point back at me that I never tried to reconnect with her. By putting something like that out there every now and then, it hopefully highlights it's her making the choice and not me. Small things during small opportunities. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's funny, but I've learned so much about myself during all of this. That learning and understanding has me feeling much better than I have in a long time, including pre-BD. My W won't be able to drag me back to being my old self now that I realize how much better I can be and am being. If she doesn't like it, too damn bad and her loss.

DonH, you have no idea how much I needed to hear those comments form you and J2. You're right. That MC again would be a bad idea and there's a very good possibility W is just looking for validation of her crap. My thoughts had been around the fact that she'd be comfortable w/ that MC and maybe we could make progress if the MC was willing to be a "friend" or our M. While that may be possible, it's not worth taking that risk after going through the sh%tshow that was that first session w/ the MC. Planning on finding another MC here shortly and am currently doing Ds meds multiple times per week. W poked at me for a bit, but after addressing it, she doesn't anymore. Also, I'm going to her doctors/dentist appointments and arming myself with knowledge from the experts. You sir, have been a steadying influence on me and know that you are very much appreciated!

Hawk, as always, I appreciate your strength and support! Even if it does involve you picking on me for my Redskins losing! Guess there's always next season, or maybe even the playoffs! You are spot on w/ all of your thoughts and it's good to hear everyone echo the same. My bond with my D is amazing and she's my little partner in crime now. Loving every minute with her!

MV, agree on everything you say about the previous MC and my W needing a boost. Definitely not a risk I'm willing to take. At the moment I'm unsure of Ws desire to stay in the M, but if I can find a pro M MC then I may give it a go to see if they can pull it out of my W in the first couple sessions. If it becomes what it was last time then I do not intend on continuing with it. Detaching, GALing, and focusing on my D and I continues! Was stuck in a rut on the GAL and gym time the past couple weeks but am picking them back up!

darknes, I hadn't thought about it that way. extremely insightful! It's easy to get stuck in the negative and have it unconsciously influence my interactions w/ others, including my W. Will work on the "do" and stop w/ the expectations. The expectations don't jive w/ my approach of doing the right things for the right reasons. Not sure how I didn't realize that. Thank you!

fade, I'm unwilling for their to be an OM2, OM3, OM4, etc. I definitely see the risks of that occurring should I ignore and not address all that has happened to date. Hell, even if my W warmed up and came back to me w/ open arms, sweeping things under the rug would no doubt result in an OM2, etc.

I have come to realize I've had and continue to have fears over certain unknowns. Right now I'm trying to avoid letting fear drive my decisions and be proactive in making the right decisions, regardless of fear. I would be interested to hear your thoughts around this though bc I do feel like there's a piece missing to me in trying to take a different path. Unsure of what it is, but I do feel a little stuck in a rut right now.

Thanks to all of you. Please be patient with me and not having come back to you sooner. You are all very much appreciated!

[ForGump]

LT- I'm having a little trouble remembering or understanding the overall trajectory of your situation. A couple/few months ago, you W was consistently angry and hostile toward you and was pushing you for a divorce. But somehow her hostility devolved and ... now you guys appeared to be flirting with the possibility of staying married. What changed the overall dynamic? Why does she seem more conciliatory (even if peppered with moments of hostility)? Does it make sense to you?

[hawker]

Hey LT...glad that the rollercoaster has died down :-) It sounds like you are going to work on letting go of expectations which sound like a good idea. I also don't expect anything anymore and have tried to look at the positives I have in my life rather than what I don't have.

I am glad that you have found yourself again and that you are feeling better and realize no should drag you down!! :-)

[lt0402]

FG, yes, it's strange. W was pushing hard to get S papers in place through Sept and Oct after the bad MC session mid Sept. A lot of anger with her and some spew, but not nearly as much as before. Then early Nov she randomly told me one weekend that I needed to be nicer to her if we were going to stay married for years. Said we should go back to MC and cancel the co-parenting counseling. Since then it's been a strange limbo we have been in. W has been neutral and sometimes warm (relatively speaking) with a small amount of anger sprinkled in.

I'm unsure what has gotten us here or why she no longer is gung ho on S. I pushed back on her hard that I would take no less than 50/50 with regards to custody of our D and I meant it. I'd gotten to a point where I was in a place where I was ok if she chose to leave, but was ready to fight tooth and nail for my D. Then she hit me with the staying M comments and we are going sideways now.

Could be the custody thing, could be her having to find a job, her findings a place to live, etc, but who knows. We still really don't speak that much without D around. W seems to want to be left alone. I insert things in every now and then (like the movie offer) so she can hopefully see these are choices she is making.

I really have no clue what's going on with her though. Makes no sense to me unless she views it as sacrificing for our D or she realizes how difficult it is on her own and needs to better prepare for it than she was. Regardless, it's difficult for me to view a life like this with her. I'm willing to give the MC a try but if it stays this way I'm unsure what path I will take. It's not good for the soul and I realize now that I don't have to live like this. I guess part of the downside to getting a better grasp on yourself and life means there are tougher decisions to make.

It's frustrating bc I know with just a small change from her we can all be happy. But I realize I can't force that change. She needs to get help for her anxiety and anger issues. I'm not sure she ever wil though. I'm not willing to be subject to that anxiety or anger and let it drive my Ds and my world. So we are somewhat at an impasse. Problem is that i can't clear the obstacles now.

Long way of saying I have no clue what changed with her...

Hawk, thank you. I do feel better though at times there are still swings. I do need to kill the expectations and take more of a neutral observer approach. My L and IC both think things will break one way or the other at some point. Trying to be ready for that. Very tiring to say the least!

Home this evening for dinner and then played with my D until bed. W seemed angry from the moment I came in the door. Noticeable mood shift for her the past couple days. Culminated in her getting mad bc I went downstairs at bedtime to get a bandaid with D and she thought I was dragging out the bedtime routine. Told W "I get that you are angry" and she stormed off. Something going on with her the past couple days after seeing some warmth over the weekend. Who knows. Her circus.

Overall, I get that this is a long shot. I get that at some point it wil come to a head and most likely fall against me. I'm trying to keep things neutral at worst with W and continue to work on Ds and my R. D seems noticeably more happy and comfortable in this more neutral environment. Like I said above though, unsure how long I can slog this out. I deserve better and know that after many months. My W, regardless of her anxiety, doesn't have the right to pull us into her angst ridden world. Sad but it's reality. Watching and monitoring things. Goal is to have a new MC list by end of week. Hopefully have an appt scheduled by next week.

[ForGump]

Weird that you, me and JRuss are all in a limbo.

My IC suggested talking to my W and setting some timelines to wrap it up. Don't put myself in a perpetual limbo.

I don't think I'm in a perpetual limb. Just an indefinite one. I know it's going to end -- I just don't know when.

[JRuss]

Lt -- I really admire how far you've come since we all showed up here at roughly the same time. And your work strengthening and growing your relationship with your daughter has been inspiring to witness.

Gump -- I get the same advice from my IC. If you know it's going to end, is there value (to your self-worth or otherwise) in taking the bull by the horns and forcing things (especially if you fell into the doormat and/or Mr. Fix It rathole as your R began to fail), or do we owe it to our kids to ride the status quo (two parents, stability, under one roof) as long as we can? And, if we decide to soldier on, how much of that decision is really about us (perhaps due to an unwillingness to face the rejection fully?), and how much is really solely about the kids?

Lt -- you are right to keep expectations in check w/r/t MC. I hope this isn't harsh or overstepping on my part, but your W strikes me as someone who hasn't moved enough on her personal growth curve to be at a point where she's capable of hearing all the ways she'd need to grow and improve herself to rebuild a relationship with you, much less be able to implement those changes. You are and have, Gump is and has, I think I am and have, but our spouses? Not so much. But you are also right, I think, to go and see how things go. Most likely, there will come a time when all three of us have to be able for own mental health to be able to say (even if only telepathically) to our kids that we did everything we could. You'll be able to say that.

[ForGump]

Nicely summarized, JR, the decisions we face.

This is a lonely process. No matter how much help we get from IC, friends and this forum, only you know the details of the marriage, the kids, and the daily feelings and interactions; and so you have to know when the scale has tipped and it's time to take the next step.

The longer in-house separation goes on, the more I see my W for who she is, and the easier it becomes to countenance the idea of being divorced from her. I don't want to overstate the case here, because when we have a nice interaction, or she just looks a certain way from a certain angle under a certain light, I feel the physical urge to step forward and embrace her. But I take comfort in someone's post that relayed a comment from MWD's DB team, that it's normal to "reattach" easily.

Anyhow, I believe we three have wives who have some really deep-seated issues; things have been brewing for a long time, and our respective marriages are only a part of the wives' life-long trajectories. In other words, their problems are bigger than the marriage itself. So thing won't get better until and unless each of our wives are able to address whatever is the big hole in their lives....

[trumpet]

Anyhow, I believe we three have wives who have some really deep-seated issues; things have been brewing for a long time, and our respective marriages are only a part of the wives' life-long trajectories. In other words, their problems are bigger than the marriage itself. So thing won't get better until and unless each of our wives are able to address whatever is the big hole in their lives....

I'm not up completely on each of your situations, but Gump, you really said it well above. My ex-wife has issues that run long before the marriage, and you can't fix that from a 3rd-person perspective. Waywards have to come to the realization that they need help, and then have to go dumpster diving to the bottom of themselves. LOTS of pain and work. Then, and only then, they can see what they did to the marriage, and then have to grieve the marriage, the damage they did to others. Wow, such a road. Some see that road as a climb up Mt. Everest, and give up before they start.

Don't have the expectation they will ever do that journey. Moving on in your life means you work on your issues, you put two feet firmly beneath you, and learn what a healthy life, a healthy self, a healthy relationship looks like, and don't settle for less than that. Sure, you can 'reattach'... but what if your expectations are for more than what you ever had? Isn't it OK to have the goalposts moved for the waywards, so that they have to work a bit harder for you, and to make sure the next relationship with them, if there ever is one, is a healthy one?

Personally, the disregarding of vows made to God is a gamechanger for me. The more I see my ex-ww as someone who trampled over the vows she made not only to me, but to her Lord, really makes any attempt at her trying to reconcile as futile. Everyone sins, and we all fall short, but to have a breach of integrity that big really shows what my ex-ww is made of at the core, and it's not someone I would want to have a relationship with ever again.