WAS or what 9

[roist]

Previous Thread:

WAS or what 8

Starting a new thread as previous one is full.

I read other peoples threads here and I know what I would do in their situation. Or at least I am fairly sure. No one has walked in another's shoes so maybe things are less straightforward than our snapshot sees.

For my own situation I have not got the same clarity. Sometimes I do. Other times I don't have a clue.

Maybe I am having my own mlc. Great that the two of us can get that over with simultaneously!! Maybe I am slipping back to depression. Idk. I don't feel depressed as I am focusing on a better future. When depressed I saw no future. At all!

I have a W who is willing maybe even wanting to spend time with me and at the moment I cannot stand passing time with her. I am getting angry sitting next to her on the couch. Really mad angry. I think this anger is more so at me than her.


Reflecting back I have noticed my W has recently ever so slightly changed her position on the couch and her elbow slightly blocks me being comfortable next to her. I think subconsciously I put up with couch time together because there wasa minimum level of closeness.I knew this "closeness" was fake but still felt like rejection to me, a feeling I had many times with my W. I will explore my relationship with rejection.

Rejection is not the full cause of my anger but surely contributes. Maybe it is also the downfall of one of the last few remaining threads keeping us together.
Again idk.

Maybe I am approaching LRT, though not as a technique.

At the end of my last thread FY asked some good questions. A short answer is no I am not happy or excited by the life I live, though motivated by it's potential. I am not interested in trying to be more interesting/exciting to W.


I am not done. I am not walking away. I am not happy living AS IF. It is time for change. I will get though this. I still love and want to be with my W but not like this. I will bounce back. I will be awesome. Life will be good. Regardless of the tone of everything else I wrote, this paragraph outlines what I am sure about. It will be my focus as I vamp up my actions going forward.

I am in need of guidance.

Can I ask a question of those who read my posts but don't post, why is that? I read many without posting so I am not critical, just curious.

Best wishes. I gotta go work.

[Sotto]

Hi Roist, I read along but don't always post...I think maybe because you seem quite 'together' and reflective anyway in your postings - but I appreciate you'll also want a perspective from others.

You know, I think your kind of situation is maybe the hardest. Together, but not really together in the same home. So you are faced with the reality of the situation and need to rub along with your spouse, whilst dealing with your own feelings about them and their behaviour, and the rejection. That's not easy ((((((hugs))))))

On the flip side (unlike a sitch like mine) there are regular opportunities to interact and 'live' the changes you are making.

I think the postings from FY must be really useful as he has trodden/is treading a similar path - some differences too - but the same genre within the MLC sphere anyway.

From me, I think the main messages would be self care and independence. Try not to look closely at your W and link your moods to hers at all. I know that must be really hard, but try to release that completely, because she probably just doesn't have that to offer right now.

And finally, please don't feel trapped in a situation that you are unhappy with in the longer term. I'm never going to encourage someone to give up on their M and that's not what I'm saying. I'm only reminding you that there are two of you in this marriage and you each have an equal vote. Only you know whether and for how long you will choose to remain in the current situation and that is always up to you, and you have plenty of power to make personal choices within the constraints of the current circumstances.

I hope this helps a little Roist and take care xx

[roist]

Thank you Sotto. Yes it is good to have the views of others.Somettimes my issues seem petty compared to others so it was nice to read you acknowledging how hard it can be. Thanks. Plus I have always valued you as a poster, albeit mainly to others.

FY is awesome and I am glad to have his insights. His story scares me a little too. I have read all his threads and commend him immensely for his stamina. Our stories differ but his approach and attitude are worth emulating.

I would not have lasted as long only for I realised it is my choice to stay. I choose to stand and hence I am responsible for continuing to endure sub perfect conditions. Having to and choosing to are completely different.

Thanks job also for linking my threads.

Best wishes

[ForeverYoung]

I have a W who is willing maybe even wanting to spend time with me and at the moment I cannot stand passing time with her. I am getting angry sitting next to her on the couch. Really mad angry. I think this anger is more so at me than her.

This sounds like resentment. Not a good thing. Probably be good for both of you if you spent less time on the couch.

At the end of my last thread FY asked some good questions. A short answer is no I am not happy or excited by the life I live, though motivated by it's potential. I am not interested in trying to be more interesting/exciting to W.

What hobbies, sports, or projects do you enjoy? Reading? School? Work? Helping others? Hanging out at the strip club? (just kidding!) Nows the time to dive in. Keep trying different things until you find the right one. When you wake up in the morning with a passion to go, you found it. We can't wait for our spouse to make us complete, we have to do it ourselves. Remember the line in the MLC section of DR where Michele says we'll have to find our own goodies?

While we do this for ourselves, not our spouse, it does make us more attractive.

Can I ask a question of those who read my posts but don't post, why is that? I read many without posting so I am not critical, just curious.

I know for me I find it easier to relate to situations similar to my own. When someone's situation is much different than mine, it's difficult for me to relate, (having not been there) and near impossible to offer meaningful advice. Maybe that's what you're seeing here. I do know that many wish their spouse was at home with them, with no OP in the picture. Painful as it is sometimes living with our spouse when they are not "in love" with us, we are both very fortunate.

[ForeverYoung]

From me, I think the main messages would be self care and independence. Try not to look closely at your W and link your moods to hers at all. I know that must be really hard, but try to release that completely, because she probably just doesn't have that to offer right now.

This advice from Sotto is golden, and I could not agree more. For every time I felt pain and/or despair, I've seen my wife going through much worse. It's true, they just don't have it in them to offer right now.

And finally, please don't feel trapped in a situation that you are unhappy with in the longer term. I'm never going to encourage someone to give up on their M and that's not what I'm saying. I'm only reminding you that there are two of you in this marriage and you each have an equal vote. Only you know whether and for how long you will choose to remain in the current situation and that is always up to you, and you have plenty of power to make personal choices within the constraints of the current circumstances.

Yep. Knowing that I always had that "get out of M" card in my back pocket to play at any time has actually given me hope and helped me to carry on.

[HaWho]

Roist - I read along but don't post mostly because yours seems like a slow grind situation.

However, after reading one of your more recent posts where you mentioned knowing things you would try in other sitches, I decided to make a suggestion.

Perhaps it's time to try some different things. Couch time seems stale. In fact, from what you write "home time" is stagnant altogether. Why not come up with something you want to do (a movie, a hike, a museum exhibit, take a day road trip, etc.) and casually invite your w along. If she says no, go and enjoy! If she says yes, bonus. (Nothing romantic; just something that interests you).

Even as crazy as my h is, we always interact better out of the home.

Just an idea . . .

[job]

Actually, something that might interest both of you is your local Christmas festivities. Why don't you check out the schedules for Christmas tree lightings, plays, caroling or just driving around to see how people have decorated their homes for the holidays and then stop for a cup of hot cider or cocoa. It's something different and it just might be fun for the both of you.

[roist]

Yesterday I hesitated between using the 100th post of my last thread to journal and then go away to think/reflect. I am glad I choose to start a new thread. The feedback from those who have already walked the mile is invaluable. Thank you all.

FY, my passion used to be sport, triathlon in particular. My energy levels seem low now so that is less passionate though I am ticking away at exercising and running, with a little mountain biking. Where possible I do so with friends.
I have checked out my low energy levels but according to the doctor I am fine, so I assume it is psychological. I am taking care of my mental health as best I can, and imagine this will improve.
I have ticked away at DIY jobs around the house. I like that and love ticking stuff off my to-do list. I would not call it a passion but is a good activity.
GOAL : I will search and find a passion.

Hawho, I appreciate you dropping by. Home time does sukc,tbh. Your post reminded me of something I read on a cbt site: if you are unhappy about something DO something about it. Maybe over time I have allowed my thinking to become stagnant too. Time to relook at my situation with fresh eyes unclouded by preconceptions.
I am lucky in that I can invite my W do stuff and often she will. Our interactions are not necessarily better out of the house, but a change of scenery is always good. Our interactions do improve in group situations (though not always). Maybe it is keeping up appearances or maybe she just relaxes. Without over doing it I create these situations.
GOAL: actively seek out and plan activities I want to do alone and with W/family

Job. Good suggestion. We do go to town each year to see the lights. I will look into what other christmasy stuff we can do.

[roist]

Journal ling:

The last week or so interactions have been poorer or rather less than usual.I let this be and instead of trying to fix it I let it slide. The poorer they got the less I wanted to break the ice. So partly not knowing how to and mostly due to being curious as to what would happen if I did nothing to change current silence. Mini experiment.

Monday W started a text conversation,which is rarenowadays. Nothing big and definitely nothing that could not have waited until evening. I was busy so after a short exchange I ended it. That evening, we both got busy.

Yesterday at lunch she phoned me, again for something that could have waited. Again rare enough these days. When I got home she accepted my offer to help prepare the dinner (usually doesn't)and chatted a lot about her day.

The ice is broken and more significantly by W. Experiment over. Results noted. Back to the grind. Also back to preparing my plans and goals for the new year. I will make it GREAT.

Best wishes

[SBJ]

Roist thanks for hitting me up on my thread...I'm glad things seem like they are looking up for you. It seems like you are doing great.

I hope and pray things go smoothly for you!

[Zephyr]

good morning buddy, wishing you a great weekend! sorry I have not been here lately. I am just not able to post, for a bunch of reasons.

was just going to say hi, then this hit me for some reason...

Maybe I am having my own mlc. Great that the two of us can get that over with simultaneously!! Maybe I am slipping back to depression. Idk. I don't feel depressed as I am focusing on a better future. When depressed I saw no future. At all!

we all go through these life changes. some can cope, others really can't.

there may be some truth that you have been going through something for sometime... with the depresssion and all that you have had go on within. it is how you chose to react, to cope, to manage, to evolve that tells the tale. you have not chosen to destroy your family or blame them for your unhappiness!

that is great. instead yoh look within to find what you can do to build a better you. if all men did this, the world would be a better place and these forums would be lonelier

the rejection thing...it is a doozey. one that I have not completely figured out how to get past. it is almost hard-wired within you, that your wife was your emotional anchor and now she isn't. look back hard, has she been treating you this way for so long....just subtract the physical or has there been a fundamwntal change in her interaction and treatment of you in the last coupke of years.

honestly when I looked back I noticed that the physical was the biggest change....that her selfishness, closed offness, etc. was always there...it was just something that didn't bother me or wasn't a deal breaker....likely because the physical side always took front stage and was there for me. I guess it suited me just fine.

or was it always...I wasn't there emotionally for her, i was always closed off and she tried to close the gap with what I needed, what she thought I wanted or needed and now she wants to be sure that it isn't just the physical side that we have....thst there IS more to our relationship than just sex. is that all I ever wanted from her...some women after 20 years truely believe that to be the case with thier husbands. are our wives trying to seek the answer to whether there can be a real connection, or what thier value is (besides sex) and they have to learn to find that.

what am i saying...maybe this is a good thing...maybe this gives us a chance to learn to love each other from scratch based on who we are...or allows us to see the real 'each other' More clearly. think it also allows them the space for the to grow. AND it certainly gives YOU the time and space for you to figure out how to meet your own needs, to figure out how to keep moving forward rather than waiting to 'get through this'. im spit balling here.

doesn't make things any easier. I love the physical touch and sex just as much as any man. your pain is deep and the rejection doesn't ever cease to stab, i am sorry that you have had this cross your path.

key is to keep the focus on you and your needs. trying to reel her back in is just only going to make her fight harder against you. you two both need some healing so make sure you are doing more than just surviving.

I look forward to your next year goals post!

[Zephyr]

or what thier value is (besides sex) and they have to learn to find that.

I also meant to say....this is especially true if these women WERE ever used or abused when they were younger. those wound are very deep and take a long time to heal, if they ever do truely heal at all.

[roist]

Thanks Z. Good to hear from you.

[Esame]

You know, I think your kind of situation is maybe the hardest. Together, but not really together in the same home. So you are faced with the reality of the situation and need to rub along with your spouse, whilst dealing with your own feelings about them and their behaviour, and the rejection.

I totally agree with Sotto on this, when you live together under the shadow of the MLC it is so hard. You are doing really well, and you sound like you're keeping it all together.

[roist]

Thank you Esame,i really appreciate your comments.

I am not as together as i seem! I am not spinning or crippled by my situation but I have my struggles.I admit my W is better behaved than most mlcers so that helps too. Living as a couple with limited communication and no affection/attention from W is tough.

But I have what many lbs would love to have. I am grateful for that, but won't live forever like this. For now I have another family Christmas, which is priceless (even though will be tainted for me) . This is the third one since I decided to save my M.

I focus on other stuff as much as possible. That helps a lot.

Best wishes

[SBJ]

roist, I can't imagine the difficulty of going thru all of this for so long, but I hope and pray that you stay strong. You have given me wonderful advice that I thank you for. Please know that you are in my thoughts this Christmas season.

This is my first w/o my W and I am relying on my my faith, new friends here, my oldest friends at home, and my awesome kids to help me thru the Holiday. I am sure it will be odd...the first Christmas in 25 years w/o my wife.

God bless my friend!!!

[HaWho]

Roist - it's so admirable to see the devotion you've shown to standing for your m. They don't make too many like you!!

In regards to the limited communication and affection, of course, that is all par for the course in depression. As for how you handle it? As you posted to me recently, we have to carve those daily joys out for ourselves.

Keep taking care of you and moving forward. If she joins, great! If not, you are savoring time as best as you can.

[peacetoday]

Roist

I hear your pain--and I know even though she is there she is not

Continue to grieve the loss even though you are together-and at same time work on all your changes-to deny the feelings makes it harder and we dent progress as much as we can-

some couples who manage to stay living together wind up back together
so the percentage is higher for you if you can get through

But either way the loss is real because the old M is over and if you are to reconcile-
it will be new and probably better

[roist]

Welcome to my thread Peacetoday and thank you for your comments. It is quoted many places that if a couple can stay together in many cases their R improves again.Time will tell. Keep tuned to see how it turns out. .

Wow. Thanks everyone for dropping by and taking the time to write to me. It feels good to be amongst kindred spirits and feeling understood. I feel alone in my M so feeling less alone in my fight for it helps more than I can express.

I do not like where we are at and am unhappy about it. But I have accepted it as being as it is. Likewise it will finish in time one way or another. This is transitory and knowing that it will pass is a comfort. I don't know if I will be willing to continue like this for long time. But we will cross that bridge later. For now I am going nowhere and my W isn't either.

I have asked myself (and reask when struggling)whether it is harder to be with someone you love but doesn't love you, or being with someone you don't want to be with. I would find the latter much harder to support. So for whatever her reasons, fair dues to my W for still being here too.

I could go on and on for hours, but ye understand. Thanks for understanding. I am okay. I am under pressure and stress from many things at the moment but I am wading through them head on. The good thing about that is I demote my M problems from my head space!! And when I get through this stuff I have many many plans, goals, aims and fun stuff to concentrate on. I will outline this later.

Got to go.

Best wishes

[roist]

I know this time of year is difficult for most of us here. The festive season tends to enhance/accentuate what we have. So if that is a lousy R/M it can feel all that much worse. I know this is true, so wish all of those struggling to dig deep. Ye will get through this hard time .

Make the most of this festive season and strive to enjoy it as much as possible. Look towards the new year and strive to make it a good one. That is achieved by your actions/goals so focus on that.

Best wishes everyone and happy Christmas.

[bttrfly]

Hi Roist,
Wise words and compassionate ones. It's often so much easier for us to be compassionate towards our loved ones rather than ourselves.

I hope you have a joyous Christmas and a New Year filled with peace and serenity! xoxoxoxo

[Zephyr]

merry xmas to you and your family!

I will be tipping a glass for you and your wife and kids...to my Brother from across the pond!

[roist]

Thanks bttrfly and my old friend Z.

I listened to a speach about stress recently and I exhibit every single sign of stress mentioned!! My head is relatively calm and definitely not spinning but I guess that is not enough. So I started relooking at stress and what one can do about it. I want to include it in my 2017 revamped action plan that is under construction.

Anyway I came across single nostril and alternative nostril breathing techniques. I think many here could benefit from looking into that. Not only is it supposed to be very good in the long term ( multiple reasons) but I found it helps me IMMEDIATELY. So I wanted to share it with my cyber friends

Heading out to friends for lunch so I gotta go.

Best wishes everyone

[roist]

Best wishes for the new year.

Let's make it a good one.

[job]

Happy New Year! I agree, let's make it a good one.

[Esame]

Happy new year Roist x

[roist]

Each day I say things in my head as if saying to you guys but I don't take the time to actually write. There is not much to say about my W and or us. Life goes on. It is not a good life, but this year I am determined to change that. I will do all I can within the confines of my situation. There is so much more I can squeze into my life. A good friend of mine here (Zephyr) has pointed out that I am holding myself back. He is not wrong.

This year I have so many goals and actions that I will take but the year has started by some external stresses/issues. These have taken my focus time and energy. Last year or probably any other year I would have been crippled by these. Heck back when depressed I would by contemplating suicide. But this year I am struggling forward finding solutions and taking actions.

My outlook on stuff has changed. For example this weekend our heater broke. I found solutions to heating the house and worked on finding a solution. It took a lot of my time sat/sun but I got it going again.
I actually glad of the situation. I understand better now the workings of the heating system and that pleases me. I would have preferred doing something else but I benefited from the problem.

During all this my W made comments about it being the worst weekend ever, a comment she made about NYE too. I tried to validate her frustration but did have to tell her to speak to me in a different manner a few times. I may have been a bit short with her but I didn't get sucked into a fight.

I can see, hear and feel that my W is not happy. I feel for her. I know how she feels. I came across a letter I wrote to myself almost TEN years ago. Even back then things weren't great between us. I was slipping into my.depression and didn't realise it. Maybe being unhappy about us contributed to being depressed. I think so.

I ended my letter by telling myself that the first step was to establish a better situation with my W and then have fun. Looking back we never looked deep to finding a better way in our R. I don't think our M problems date back TEN years but there were some cracks. Plus I was unhappy with us. Unhappy with how we got along, not us being a couple.

A few years after that letter I hit rock bottom with depression and since I have been a LBS. I am just stating facts and not blaming myself. But the more I look back the further back go those cracks. I never had rose coloured spectacles looking back on our R but will admit seeing a future with those spectacles.

Finding that letter today made me nostalgic and also wonder about how the last ten years have been for my W. Not great apparently.But for whatever reason she hasn't left.at least not physically. That is great but eventually that will not be enough for me.

Her parents seem to be living a similar situation.Her mother seems to live in another room. Her dad was/is depressed. They both ooze of resentment towards each other. I have worked hard to remove my resentment with relative success. I am not bitter against my W but not happy with our situation. I have beaten my depression.My IC once commented that my W's issues with me could really be about her dad. Idk but I have cleaned up that part of me.

That was a long ramble. Thanks for reading.

Best wishes

[roist]

Esame thanks for dropping by and for wishing me a happy new year

[SBJ]

Great post roist...thanks for hitting me up on my thread.

God bless.

[ForeverYoung]

for whatever reason she hasn't left.at least not physically. That is great but eventually that will not be enough for me.

I hear you and understand, roist. But don't give up! Let her know what you want and then back off. She is likely to surprise you when you least expect it.

I think you have a good handle on this stuff. You don't want to end up living in resentment like her parents. You got this, roist. Bust On!

[Zephyr]

Good Afternoon! I have been pop'in in to see what has been going on with you folks.

with regards to your latest post. i wish that letting go of resentment is easy to do, it isn't. not for you or not for her. i am glad that you see it is something you are willing to work on to get your focus on the present instead of the Past OR the Future. i firmly believe that losing resentment is a choice. you can't make that choice for her...but you can show her how by continuing doing it yourself.

hey, BTW before i lose track of this, nice work on repairing the heating plant, so much respect for those who work through stuff like that. you saved your family a bunch of cash not hiring a service guy and you got the win. i am excited that you could feel proud of your efforts.

you are correct, I do believe you are holding yourself back. When it comes to making you the focus of your life and prioritize your happiness...It is clear you know What do to. It is clear you understand why it is important. all of your advice to so many others speaks volumes to that.

It is the How do I? How do i just start making me the priority. how do i just show myself that i am worth it. how? I saw a meme last night and it made me smile. It had a person with a spray can facing a brick wall. there was a sentence written on the wall that read, 'be with someone that makes you happy.' the person had used a spray can to cross out the 'with' and underlined 'you'. it was so succinct.

what will it take for you to make a leap and take a chance on yourself. I know you have dabbled in getting a bit out of your comfort zone over the last year - Seriously that is a great thing...but id like to read a post where you just dove right into something new and how it was one of the greatest things you've ever done. how it opened up a bunch of new doors of experiences, relationships, enjoyment, find a passion and let it run, let that inner Celtic Spirit Warrior of yours out into the world, free of the binds that you've put on him for so long. He could be a musician, artist, actor, athlete, poet, sculptor, photographer, singer, designer, brew-master, painter, gardener, inventor, Volunteer some of your time to some group or movement that you deem worthwhile...you can be whateverthefrack you want to be!!! Get your heart into it and you will be able to find the time and energy for it! It will pay you back

I think and imagine of all the sacrifices you made to try to please / satisfy everyone else. What if you didn't continuously downgrade yourself to do what you though you were supposed to do. how different would your life be...who knows right? I will tell you, my wife was actually mad at me when i used the whole 'I sacrificed' line a bunch of years ago. She said something to effect of, 'noone told you that had to be done that way. we would have been just fine if you didn't...." Just saying for some reason, we put restrictions on ourselves, lets call it a hindrance even. It is what we knew. we did the best we could with what we knew. It really didn't work, did it.

I understand all of the stresses and strains that we encounter in adult life, especially within a family and as a business owner. They are all very hard. It sounds like you are managing all of that well! You have pulled yourself out of that hole we all found ourselves in. Now time to climb that mountain in front of you.

There is sooooooooo much out there that you could try. i get all the reasons for why you haven't (cause frankly i've used them all)...i would love to see what you would come up with if you make a list of reasons why you SHOULD go out on that limb. Do you think you could give yourself permission to be fair with yourself, to help you with that journey on your path to being that man you want to become...to complete that template / concept that you have been building these last umpteen months...to becoming a better you (not just a father, husband, provider - the whole package)?

What is the worst thing that could happen if you tried?

I am pretty sure you know how to get a hold of me, so if you need...feel free to drop me a line, oK?

<sorry if the tone is a bit aggressive, not the intent...I was just throwing thoughts down quickly, didn't have a ton of time at lunch>

[roist]

FY and Z, thank ye for taking the time to reply.I will reply shortly bit just know I have heard what ye have said, I appreciate it and will act on it.

I had a touch of flu this week. Almost over it.

Anyway I am here tonight about something that I mentioned when in newcomers but still haven't mastered. We have two high spirited boys and lately our youngest (7) just won't go to sleep. Not only that he makes noise so it is disturbing. We have tried loads of techniques and different approaches. Regardless of the approach or reaction he could not give a d@mn. Pretty much his words!!

That is hard enough. But tonight (and other occasions too) when I am intervening my W will let know in front of son that my approach isn't working. I have mentioned this a few times to W. Not only do I find it disrespectful but more importantly I feel it undermines me with my kids.

Tonight I tried a new approach which actually was previously suggested by W. It was not working but I could not back down so I was trying to end the conflict and save face. Not an easy thing to do. W came IP and asked if son wanted to play in his room. I was too shocked and angry to say anything.

So now I am annoyed with myself for letting that happen. I am annoyed with W too but mostly with myself. If we separate one upside will be not having this sort of crap to deal with. I truly believe I can be a great dad alone. I strive to be one within our R but this shows I am failing.

This sort of situation and our general dynamics in general are not the role models I want for my sons. Maybe one day I may decide that it is healthier for them for us to separate but for now I believe staying together is in their interest.So the point of this post is to see if any of ye good folk have ideas or suggestions about this. I am eager to try to be the best I can and appreciate any comments. I will mention this incident to W tomorrow do if any suggestions about that would be welcome.

Rereading this I realise I am not angry but determined to learn from this.

[ForeverYoung]

Hi roist. Like Michelle, I too believe your boys will be better served by living with both of their parents. Did you ever look into the assertiveness training we discussed a while back?

Better to bring up any issues you have with W at the time of the incident, not the next day, I learned. But there is a productive and many non-productive manners in which to do this. Training will help you get it right.

[roist]

FY.

Thanks for your reply. It does help to have your insight.

No I have not looked up a course. Well I did but didn't find one and I didn't go back to it. But assertiveness is on my desired traits list and I have looked into that. It is ongoing. I will relook at a course.

. Assertiveness is important and yes some assertive ways are counterproductive. My post was looking for people's suggestions on productive ways. I will look into it.

[HaWho]

Roist - my understanding is that you sometimes feel your wife meddles when you are handling situations with your kids and then she inadvertently undermines you? Is that correct?

If so, (sheepish look) I have been guilty of doing the same to my h. One thing my h started to do was to tell me beforehand that he was going to handle x situation with the kids and he'd appreciate it if I left him to it. That helped me not to interfere as when I heard any commotion, I was expecting it/prepared for it and did not feel that knee jerk reaction to meddle.

Prior to this, if I did interrupt, h was polite but firm in telling me he was handling it and would wait until I left to resume. That worked, too.

For me, as I always handled the majority of issues, I think it was a habit (albeit an annoying one).

Perhaps try giving her a heads up even if it's a last minute situation?

[roist]

OMG HaWho, your husband had better communication and assertiveness skills than me. I like your suggestions. So simple. And sure if that doesn't work I will leave her a letter !!!! Haha.

Like you my W handles the majority of kid stuff. She works school hours so is there more. I don't think she deliberately undermines me, more so she does not consider me as equal. Little by little I am chipping away at this and things have improved but still a way to go.

Thank you for admitting this and for sharing what worked for H. I have on a few occasions let her know I am dealing with it and asked her to go.

I like the pre warning. At the moment we are parallel parenting and don't seem able to discuss it as a team. To be fair she does support me with the boys. But this undermining is one of my pet hates or triggers.

[roist]

Zephyr

I was going to post on your thread but seeing as recently you only post here I will write here.

This morning I took some time to prepare thank you cards.Thus is the follow up of the work I did on gratitude. At the time I mentioned possibly sending 52 thank you cards.Maybe that was ambitious. So to start I am going to send about 10 now and I have the card ready whenever I wish to send another.

This is not to replace thanking people daily whenever they do something for me. No I willccontinue that and develope it. This us more to send a special thank you for something really meaningful for me.

To answer your question above no I don't know how to contact you off this forum though I know you did do so with V. I did look up your name and your Derby team once. Let me know if you can of another way.

In the meantime I will use this post as my thank you card to you. I have received help and advice from many great people here but you were one of the first to post in my thread and you were there for me every step since. I have already expressed my appreciation for your advice comments and friendship, but I could not do this card exercise without including you.

At my worst times you picked me up. When lost you gave direction. When hopeless you inspired hope. When alone I could always count on you. I hope you will be there as my path unfolds, but even if not I will always be grateful for your support over the last two years (well best part of anyway).

Thank you.

I have not taken the time to reply to your recent posts but I have taken note. And you will have that post you desired full of me exploring and achieving a fuller life with new and enriching activities. Watch this space.

[job]

One way to contact each other is via Facebook. A few of our posters have created a DB Facebook connection. Some use their posting names w/DB behind them and others use their real names w/DB behind them. You can always create a separate account in FB to get started...but that's up to you.

Unfortunately we can't give out personal data here and/or provide strong hints as to your contact information....I'm sorry for that because we use to do so a long time ago and it was very helpful until we had trolls contacting posters off line constantly and some other issues arose from the use of personal data that was provided here.

We've had a few posters attempt to post contact info here and they were either put on moderation for a time or banned because of the Board policies...so please be careful if you should go the route of "hints".

[roist]

Thanks for the friendly warning warning job. Thanks for keeping an eye on all of us here.

[Zephyr]

roiste, thank you for the very thoughtful, thank you / gratitude card. it does mean a lot to me!

Now if I could have gone it on my refrigerator....

you too have been so very supportive to me on all my struggles these last coupke of years and have helped me keep my way. you have been a be considered of strength to so many (including many who have moved on from here).

thank you from the bottom of my heart. from me and me whole family!!!

Have a great weekend, you deserve nothing less!

[mutatio]

roiste, just wanted to stop by and say hello. Not many people left from our crowd of 2015/16. I hope your situation is getting better. Mine is the same, nothing to report. I will post soon. I just wanted to wish you the best and I hope you find what you need. Be well

[roist]

Mutatia,

It is great to hear from you. Thank you for checking in. I look forward to reading an update from you.

I often wondered how you were getting along and hoped that dropping the rope had given you the freedom to blossom.

Best wishes

[Gordie]

Her parents seem to be living a similar situation.Her mother seems to live in another room. Her dad was/is depressed. They both ooze of resentment towards each other.

Roist,

Some questions for you:

1. How much of your W's staying in your home/marriage unhappily just following her parents' example? Is she just staying there for financial reasons? for the kids? or is she also "standing" in her own way?

2. From your posts, it seems like both of you aren't the most forthcoming with your feelings, so resentment builds up on both sides. Is that correct? If so, what are you doing to change that dynamic?

3. How does your dynamic with your W affect your children? They are old enough to be able to perceive things, but I'm guessing not old enough to articulate their feelings about those thing.

[roist]

Hello Gordie, thanks for dropping by and for your questions. Here are my replies:

1. Isn't it obvious that my W is still here because I am too awesome to leave. No seriously I cannot answer that for her. I don't know. My W is critical of her parents R so I doubt she is just emulating that. About two years ago she was offered a full time job, so that could have set her up financially if she had taken it. I imagine the kids are a big part of it.

I see signs that she's not fully done yet, so maybe she is standing in her own way. But I have often reflected on what it would be like to feel stuck with someone you don't want to be with. That must be terrible so fair credit to her for still being here.

But essentially this is mostly mind reading and I prefer to concentrate on the fact she is still here and no imminent signs of that changing.

2. That is a huge question. Before I started working on saving our M I would say that was absolutely true. I was of the mentality if she wasn't going to make an effort then neither was I. It was a very negative time and the deepest part of my depression.

Then I realised what I wanted and got in touch with my feelings and was willing and able to discuss them. But she wasn't receptive. That was a real eye opener for me as to the depth of how bad our situation was.

Long story short I since have worked a lot on eliminating resentment from our R. There are times I get fed up with the situation but for the mostpart I no longer resent the situation and I definitely don't feel resentment towards my w. When I struggle I remind myself she is having a difficult time too.

I have done a lot of work to replace negativity and resentment.The best way to do that is by replacing them with positive emotions. I choose gratitude and empathy. In essence you cannot feel negative whilst feeling grateful or any other positive feeling.

I am grateful my W checked out as this enabled me to embark on discovering so many learning I would otherwise have remained oblivious to. It really can be a gift, though I would prefer to end this phase like every one else here.

3. Another good but complicated question. Short answer is that although we are not demonstrating a perfectly loving couple neither are we inflicting traumatic interactions on our boys. We relay more than parent together but we do support each other with the kids.

It is not the example I want them growing up as a model of how to be, but it is not that bad. I am sure they pick up on some stuff but so far I am not worried about that for them.

The little brats probably try the devide and conquer technique a little as we are not 100% together but we are fairly consistent and together in our approach to them.

My W stayed at home several years and has a strong impression she is the boss in the house regarding the boys. I have upped my status and reclaimed equality, but it is slow. I did so first to be ready if I had to parent solo bit also to be the best dad possible.

I have read and learned a lot about parenting. I wasalways interested and present but now it is highly important for me. I thought I was doing good before this crisis but I realise I was coasting.

Got to go. Thanks for probing

Best wishes

[HaWho]

Your situation reminds me a bit of mine. (Pre MLC, that is. Certainly not similar now as your wife is not crazy and my h is off the charts weird. Just a minor difference. Ha ha.)

However, what I find impressive, is your ability to get in touch with what you wanted and to work toward your goals.

Personally, I think you should try some 180's to shake it up a bit. I know you have young kids, but do you have a night or two you take for yourself to explore something of interest? If not, this would be healthy for you. I think with a live-in, it's vital to get away. Do you take a few hours on a Saturday or Sunday to explore things by yourself?

And over time, your w just may start to notice your level of engagement elsewhere has increased.

[Gordie]

***Isn't it obvious that my W is still here because I am too awesome to leave. ;)***

YES!!!

***Then I realised what I wanted and got in touch with my feelings and was willing and able to discuss them. But she wasn't receptive. That was a real eye opener for me as to the depth of how bad our situation was. Long story short I since have worked a lot on eliminating resentment from our R. There are times I get fed up with the situation but for the mostpart I no longer resent the situation and I definitely don't feel resentment towards my w. When I struggle I remind myself she is having a difficult time too.***

Wow, this is an aspirational place for me to be.

***I have done a lot of work to replace negativity and resentment.The best way to do that is by replacing them with positive emotions. I choose gratitude and empathy. In essence you cannot feel negative whilst feeling grateful or any other positive feeling.***

Wow, another eye opener.

***I am grateful my W checked out as this enabled me to embark on discovering so many learning I would otherwise have remained oblivious to. It really can be a gift, though I would prefer to end this phase like every one else here.***

Have not found this gratitude for this trial.

***My W stayed at home several years and has a strong impression she is the boss in the house regarding the boys. I have upped my status and reclaimed equality, but it is slow. I did so first to be ready if I had to parent solo bit also to be the best dad possible. I have read and learned a lot about parenting. I was always interested and present but now it is highly important for me. I thought I was doing good before this crisis but I realise I was coasting.***

Yes, I think I've been coasting, but this situation has forced me to up my game. Thanks for your honesty.

[roist]

Ha who,
Thanks for dropping by. I appreciate your words of encouragement. I have a lot; f goals I am chipping away at. I am not progressing as fast as I would prefer but I avoid stressing about that. I am going in the right direction and tbh maybe I am working on too many things at once, but eventually it will all click together and Roist 2.0 will be born!!

I do make "me" time every week and every day. Buti I hear your advice. It is good and part of what I am working on. I have no problem getting busy but really getting a life outside the house I am not yet fully there. That being said I do sport with friends most weeks and go out now and again.

I am more active is seeking out fun stuff to do, something I have given more importance to this year than before. A few weeks ago I heard a band on the radio that I never heard of and when the DJ said they had a gig near us I just had to go. I went with a friend and it was v good. This is a 180 for me. I have not been to see a band in a long long time. But when I heard the add for them I just had a strong urge to go.

I aim to seize many more opportunities as they present and as I create them. Carpe Dium. I will balance this with my family life and work commitments.

Earlier on I wondered about going into LRT would "work" on snapping my W back into being: interested. Having observed her/us the last 2.5 years I believe it may just do that. I am now moving towards filling my life as opposed to trying a tactic to change her mind. I still learn about relationships and M including how to save them, but it is no longer my sole driving force.

Best wishes

[ForeverYoung]

Wow, I like what I’m reading here roist, you sound like you are in a good place right now. Keep it up my friend.

I know DB says to do it (make changes, GAL, etc.) for us and not our spouse, but I can assure you that your wife IS watching and taking notes!

Earlier on I wondered about going into LRT would "work" on snapping my W back into being: interested. Having observed her/us the last 2.5 years I believe it may just do that. I am now moving towards filling my life as opposed to trying a tactic to change her mind. I still learn about relationships and M including how to save them, but it is no longer my sole driving force.

I believe you are wise not to jump into LRT unless you are near done with the M, and willing to see it end. I know you are not there now. Work on connection, whenever she is open to it. When she is not, go back to giving time and space, and doing your own thing.

And yes, I also believe that hyper focus on saving the marriage, while natural in the beginning, can be detrimental if we overdo it for too long. I know it was for me. It was tiring and wore me down, especially during the times when I seen little or no improvement. Sometimes you just need to back away from it all and enjoy life as it is.

[ForeverYoung]

I recently asked our therapist (privately) what she thought would happen if I withdrew from W, in an attempt to draw her towards me.

“If you withdrew a little, scares me a little because once you go down that path she may agree and then you can't turn back. I don't like to entertain that option until it truly is the only option.”

Makes sense to me. Better in our situations, I think, to continue to improve connection with our wives.

[SBJ]

FY...not to hijack roist, but has there been any improvement with your situation? Or, has all the improvement just been on a personal level within yourself?

[roist]

Thanks FY, your opinion means a lot to me.

I agree. That is why I didn't jump into LRT. Plus I have learned enough about it to apply it properly which earlier on I may not have managed. It is a card that I can play if she moves further away from me.

I could be wrong but I have the impression that my W does not want us to get further apart. Anytime I voice a complaint or issue, she almost always comes to find me shortly afterwards and shares a funny story about the boys or some other ice breaker.

That being said she isn't moving towards me either. But maybe I will have a surprise tomorrow for Valentine's day .

There were times in the past two years where we were worse. There were definitely times I was worse. Am I better at supporting the situation?
Yes, but maybe it is more supportable too.

There were times she avoided kissing me hello/goodbye. She would kiss my son goodbye at the breakfast table beside me and walk around the table and if lucky mumble goodbye to me. Now she comes to me to say hello/goodbye with a kiss.

On the couch after a certain time she used to move her legs. Before she tended to move them away from me, now they lean against my chest.

For months she never wore a ring on her wedding finger but recently wears one a few days a week. No apparent pattern to when she will or won't.

I'm listing this stuff to acknowledge that things could be and have been worse. Could be better too but that is another topic.

My approach is to slowly improve the connection between us. Opportunities are intermittent and I may not take advantage fully of every opportunity but I avoid making things worse. I see those opportunities too and am getting better at not falling for them.

It has been a year since any R talk and that one was a year after the previous one. If it is an annual thing, we are due one this month!! Two years ago after a heavy period of me in overdrive to save M, I pushed for her to open up regardless of whether I would like what she had to say or not. She didn't open up. Last year we talked about our R as if it was an independent entity ( the R was doing this and that on its own!!). I listened validated and finally got an admittance that she had checked out (again she mentioned this as if it was someone else and not her).

Since then a lot of water has flowed under the bridge. A lot of the same water.Maybe too much water. FY, I agree with your advice to follow Michelle's advice to issue a warning before hitting the point of giving up. Maybe one day I will have to do just that but for now I am still learning and growing. That is my focus.

I downloaded an application that let's you listen to or download podcasts.I listen to so much helpful podcasts about many many topics: gratitude, parenting,lsw of attraction, motivation, empathy.........etc. and yes about R/M too. Recently I have listened to 3 different podcasts (many podcasts from 3 sources)
1 a father (pastor) and son (psychologue) who talk about love and respect and its importance. Their advice is more aimed at people still together but also about family and kids. Quotes the Bible a lot to support their message.
2. A H & W team who are happily married but H was WAH and W stood and saved M. Again quotes god a lot.
3. Another H/W team but these are third time married, but have studied what it takes to have a happy M.
These and much more help convince me that I am right to stand and turnarounds are possible. Maybe MICHELLE should do podcasts. I first found her book after listening to her YouTube video on WAS.

Best wishes and well done to everyone who read all the way to the end.

[Gordie]

So it seems like your W is happy with the status quo but that you'd like to move closer, is that correct? I'm interested in your Valentine's Day and other plans to make that happen. Seeing that it's been a year since your last R talk, I guess neither of you mention divorce; is that correct? I guess for you and ForeverYoung where there are no OM in the picture, the status quo can last for a long time.

[roist]

I am not sure I would say W is happy with status quo but she does appear less unhappy with it.

I have no plans for Valentine's day. We never made a big deal of it. We have our own dates.

What I am doing is too long to reply now. I may come back to it later. I am chipping away at it. But you can only connect with someone that is open to it. Cadet drilled that home two years ago.

I guess I am giving my W space and time.II am using that time to better myself and improve my R skills/knowledge. I am preparing myself for when I will need them.

Our situation may not have moved much but it would be wrong to think it was all identical the last 2.5 years. There were phases both for the R and especially for me. It was a rolkercoaster ride, albeit not the same one as many here experience.

My whole story is here if you want to know the details.

Thanks for checking in on me.

[roist]

I know today is a tough one for most people here. Try to focus on what ye have instead of what you don't have. We can easily reflect on what is missing today in our R. It is normal but can only bring us down.

Best wishes friends

[Gordie]

Best to you too. I hope you are with loved ones today.

[roist]

A few weeks ago Gordie asked the question about what I was doing to become closer with my W. This question struck a cord as it correlated to part of my current thinking.

Before expanding on that I admit (and not for the first time)that I am probably working on too many aspects of ME at once. But I am attacking a global overhaul towards ROIST2.0. I say this as I, think for many others it won't work well, but I think it suits me. Due to his approach I think I have spent more time in my thinking, to attain an overall version of me that is consistent and aligned.

Part of my current thinking was about what I was actually doing to improve my R with W. Maybe along the way I became stuck as tbh I have done nothing new recently. I could easily sit behind the excuse, that after this amount of time and effort it is now up to her to come around. That does not sit right with me. Firstly as long as she is still here I have the time to try stuff, but mostly I am not happy with how we are living together. So I am eager to be different.I want to be more like I would be in a "normal loving" R.

So to be that man I am doing the following actions:
# opening up slightly my communication. Expressing feelings/fears/emotions. I am doing this gradually and initially on safe/neutral topics.
# I am working on how I phrase things. I am pretty good (not perfect) at letting W and others know when behavior is not acceptable to me. However instead of using phrases like "don't talk to me like that" or change your tone with me" I am now looking into better ways to communicate the same message. For example " I understand you are unhappy with xyz, but I tend to be more accommodating when asked nicely". I am only just dabbling into this so any guidelines will be appreciated.
# I hold eye contact a second or two longer when we kiss hello/goodbye
# I initiate physical contact between us. Not sensual but comfort. Regardless of my mindset I try to be consistent with this.

There is other stuff but nothing earth shattering. I am making a bigger effort to be more consistent. Over time I am consistent but within any day there could be moments I struggle. These are getting fewer and farther between but still occur. Also I try to balance several different mind frames:
1 being a loving/caring person
2 being independent enough to demonstrate do not need W.
3. Want to stay together but not any which way.
4. Respect her not being able to love me now
5. Knowing I will not live forever like this.
6. Being available but not always. Being busy but not always

Again there is more but I think I am close to perfecting the balance that is best for me, at least for now.

Recently I relistened to Michelle's video on divorce busting. It is obviously not as detailed as the book but a great summary. When I first read DR, I passed through the section on "Asking" .Forever young has also mentioned asking a few times. Now seems right. I will reread that chapter and determine some actions.

On a sidenote I have noticed several times, and not just personally but that some knowledge we learn about at one stage of our journey may only become useful or relevant later on. That is why I tend to go back through old material at times as well as learning new viewpoints.

Whereas I would be reluctant to say I was stuck, I now have started moving forward on this side of things, and other things ltoo. A long post to hold myself accountable to, but also to see if any of ye good folk have observations or comments that could help.

Thanks for reading

Best wishes

[Sotto]

Hi Roist, I think you are doing well and you certainly come across as a wise and pretty much together Guy...ie: already someone only a fool might leave..

On the boundaries front - yes that's also a work in progress for me and I feel I'm a rabbit in the headlights when the moment for a boundary comes, then I ruminate and then place the boundary.

Recent example - My Dad sometimes asks for things in what I feel is an imperious tone and it really gets on my nerves. For example he recently wanted me to get something from the store for him. No problem and I'm happy to help, but it's the way he asks. Instead of saying - would you mind picking up X for me he says (in headmaster tone) - I need you to get X for me.

So - last time he said that I managed to say (in a light tone) - Dad, I'm always happy to help, but remember to ask nicely! The best I could come up with really and he did catch himself, so I guess that worked...

No other wisdom to offer - other than saying - kudos to you for investing what you have and being willing to revisit, review and investing the energy. If my XH had done even 50% of that, I'd have been pretty happy.

Xx

[roist]

s

Hi Roist, I think you are doing well and you certainly come across as a wise and pretty much together Guy...ie: already someone only a fool might leave..


No other wisdom to offer - other than saying - kudos to you for investing what you have and being willing to revisit, review and investing the energy. If my XH had done even 50% of that, I'd have been pretty happy.

Xx

Thanks Sotto for those words. Glad I come across as coherent and sane.I have come along way, though not quite where I want to be. I will always be a work in progress, but I have a certain level I want to achieve before being happy with version 2.0.

I would never describe my W as a fool or stupid. Maybe that is why she is still here. Regardless I believe now that she would be foolish to leave and foolish to believe this will be our R forever. Time will tell if there are any fools in this M.

I also appreciate you supporting my efforts.

Yes boundaries take time to become comfortable with. First recognising where one is needed, then putting it in place appropriately and of course the important consequence that must go with a crossing of that boundary.

Many lbs don't put up boundaries out of fear. Then they learn about lack of respect and stamp down hard to eradicate that. Being appropriate is not the only important thing about boundaries. How they are put in place is just as important IMO. Of you shout your boundary that you will not be shouted at, it undermines your stance. So tone, wording and timing are crucial especially if seeking cooperation.

Before putting in place a boundary people should do some reflection IMO. If an issue is a trigger you should try to figure out why it affects you so. Sometimes it has more to do with our irrational thinking, misconceptions and/or expectations than the other persons behavior. Again this is speaking in general and just my understanding of boundaries.

Well done on your recent boundary with your dad. I am glad you managed to deal with a behavior that upset you and that he reacted well to it. Instead of saying" remember to ask nicely" you could say " I prefer to be asked nicely" or " I'd react better if you asked (nicely)". Boundaries are about us so where possible it is preferable to phrase it in terms of us.

[roist]

I know I come across as being wise and together, because most of the time I think that I am. At work, with friends, doing sport I am good. But at home I am less good. The non communication and poor interactions just hit me once I walk in the door. I am less affected than before but I dislike it more, if that makes sense.

Each day I take a little time alone to advance something I am working on, personal development or other. This reduces my working day slightly but I feel better advancing on my actions. Then whilst working I listen to podcasts about R/M, communication, gratitude, parenting, and many more such topics. To mix it up I also listen to non PD stuff which is just interesting. At the end of the day I tend to listen to music I like, which is great and gives my brain some low effort listening.

I hear great ideas/ concepts and philosophies that I want to live by. Slowly these are becoming engrained in my thoughts and are being adopted as my way of thinking.

But once home, I don't have the same energy and don't live in harmony with my thinking. For a while now I have been contemplating putting into action a way of being when with W that I improve am my interactions with W and show more love, attention and empathy. Partly to experiment if it changes anything between us but mostly to be who I want to be.

I feel that I am blocking myself doing this and otheractiobs and I am figuring out why. Maybe after years of this, I am tired of it. Not enough to give up but enough to be less motivated to try. But if neither of us try, nothing will change, so I want to change. I am not expecting a change in W but I cannot go forward with assuming that either. In theory she/it can change.IOtherwise I will create a self fulfilling prophesy.

So I am reflecting on how I can overcome my barriers at home. I am no longer down due to our situation/interactions but I want to be more UP regardless of it. Maybe along the way I will need to tell W I won't live this way forever, as sometimes that is very close to coming out. Maybe part of my reasoning is to put in place my plan for X months and stick to it regardless and then see where I am at. But despite how much I don't want to continue this way I want even less to leave. So my only choice is to change
first me and then us.

I say this now for two reasons, firstly for the last two months I have been hymming and hawing about doing it, so now I have some accountability to move forward. Secondly to give ye a truer picture of my mindset.

Going forward with this does not mean my other objectives will be sidelined.OOn the contrary I am sure I will need other focuses to stay steady. I have signed up for some sporting events so that makes it easier to stick to doing sport a few times each week. Maybe one day I will take the time to outline fully a wider view of my action plan. But I am ticking away at many, things and W is not my only focus.

OK I got to go earn a few pennies to pay the bills.

I am truly grateful to have found this place. At the moment I probably give back more than I need to take, but I know if things get hairy in my situation ye will have my back.

One final note. Earlier this year I prepared a dozen or so thank you cards to express my gratitude to various people in my life. I hesitated over three of them: W and her parents. Finally i decided it was stupid not to include W as she was the person I was most grateful for in my life. In fact i gave her her card first. She liked it. Earlier on in our situation I did a more detailed one for her. I just could not give it to her parents without first telling W. I didn't need her approval but not telling W first is poor communication that I am trying to eliminate. On the other hand I did not want to explain to W why I prepared these cards. I almost didn't give them to her parents. This is just an example of me placing barriers in my way. I realised this. I informed W I would be putting a thank you card in their letterbox. I said I was doing it for me but as it was her parents and a lot of what they did was for us and nit just me, I offered to include her name when signing. She said yes. This exchange was done by text (because I am turning into hawho's H!!!! Haha). Cards were delivered this week and neither of us have mentioned it since. I am happy with completing this project and have more cards ready whenever I have reason/desire to thank someone.

Speaking of completing stuff, I recently finished redoing the in built cupboard in our bedroom. Yeah. Another thing off my list. My W reorganised her clothes and placed all her sexy underwear in a case for storage! Whereas it does reflect where we are at and is better than her wearing it to go out, it did reinforce just how far away from any possible turnaround we are. But at this stage if she initiated sex, she could wear Bridget jone's underwear and that would be sexy!! Haha.

Wow. Guess I needed to chat today!! Thanks for reading.

Best wishes

[Sotto]

Hi Roist, I think the packing away of the sexy underwear is a good sign as she's not in a place where she wants to put that on and go out with a WW mindset! Well done with completing the DIY job too.

I understand what you are saying about progress being much more difficult when you are at home. I'm sure posters like HaWho would attest to the great challenge of keeping yourself happy and grounded in a less than optimal situation.

I haven't ever done that as we S at BD - though I had a few unhappy months prior to that when XH had been seeing OW and then broke it off (but didn't) and was pretty checked out. I began to long to be in my home town when I went to visit my folks, and found returning to the marital home difficult and draining.

I certainly find that the nourishing activities like yoga, gratitude, exercise, inspirational listening and reading, meditation really help me - and it sounds as though you are active in at least some of these areas.

I have also seen people post that it really helped them to remember - there is always a choice and I am here because I choose to stay - today, tomorrow, this week, this month - for as long as you choose to make that choice.

Anyway - not much wisdom I'm afraid - I'm hoping a wiser poster may come along and help our more - but I wish you a good day and I enjoyed the chat!

Best wishes Roist :-)

[roist]

Sotto,

Thanks for reading and replying. You made a great point and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. Early on I fell apart like everyone else who comes here because I felt I had no choice and I needed myW/M. Once I realised I didn't need either it helped. From then I was here by MY choice. Hence any subsequent turmoil was due to ME choosing to be here.

Your words are filled with wisdom and understanding.Don't put yourself down. I remember when I first came here you and pink were a great support to many newcomers. I am glad you stay around.

[Gordie]

One final note. Earlier this year I prepared a dozen or so thank you cards to express my gratitude to various people in my life.

Roist, you inspired me to send thank you notes to the people who have been so helpful to me IRL these past few months.

[roist]

It is nice to know I brought some positivity into your life. I am sure your cards brought pleasure to those who received them. There is only positivity in appreciation and gratitude. Thank you for sharing that.

[roist]

Just a short note to wish ye all a happy Saint Patrick's Day. It is one of the few if not the only national holiday to be celebrated worldwide. That is amazing considering the size of Ireland.

Even if it has no significance or meaning for you, I wish you a great weekend where I hope you can celebrate something about life.

Best wishes

[roist]

Thanks job for your reply on hawho's thread. I googled and read briefly but have copied your reply here to remind me to finish reading it later.


Jim Conway has abook out there on his MLC, as well as his wife wrote a book about his MLC. You may want to read those two books. However, we use to have a poster named HeartsBlessing who took the stages described by Jim Conway and expanded them when her hwent thru his crisis. However, w/both of them, you can't set your watch by the timelines because each and every person going thru crisis will either take longer or shorter time, but the stages give you an idea of what might happen. They are just a guideline, i.e., very similar to grieving. HeartsBlessing no longer posts here and you may want to google her name and locate her that way because we aren't allowed to share other sites on here. Also, you can change your posting timeline at the bottom left hand corner at the Display Options. Change it to all and do a search of her name that way. Ican't guarantee that all of her postings are still here, but it's worth a try. Maybe HaWho will share what she has since we have gone thru several purges and a lot of excellent datahas been lost forever.

[Gordie]

Thanks job for your reply on hawho's thread. I googled and read briefly but have copied your reply here to remind me to finish reading it later.


Jim Conway has abook out there on his MLC, as well as his wife wrote a book about his MLC. You may want to read those two books. However, we use to have a poster named HeartsBlessing who took the stages described by Jim Conway and expanded them when her hwent thru his crisis. However, w/both of them, you can't set your watch by the timelines because each and every person going thru crisis will either take longer or shorter time, but the stages give you an idea of what might happen. They are just a guideline, i.e., very similar to grieving. HeartsBlessing no longer posts here and you may want to google her name and locate her that way because we aren't allowed to share other sites on here. Also, you can change your posting timeline at the bottom left hand corner at the Display Options. Change it to all and do a search of her name that way. Ican't guarantee that all of her postings are still here, but it's worth a try. Maybe HaWho will share what she has since we have gone thru several purges and a lot of excellent datahas been lost forever.

I read the Jim Conway book as well as HB's postings. Both were very eye opening and I highly recommend them.

[roist]

Thanks Gordie. I am glad they helped you. In the past I have delved into such topics and it does help when we understand better. The HB site I hadn't read before.

I am not even sure that my W is in mlc. It could just be depression or just a WAW that hasn't walked. Or all 3! From time to time I read bits and pieces on mlc to understand her plight (and inadvertently mine), but at the moment I am concentrating mostly on my action plan moving forward. Slowly but surely that is becoming clearer and taking form. But if you or others have other resources that helped, I am always interested in good knowledge.

Best wishes

[roist]

Quick update.

Things are pretty much as they have been for a while now, so no big update to report.

I am on this forum almost two years and decided to save my M six months before that. Many could say if it hasn't changed by now it won't. Even if that is so, my time has not been wasted IMO. But I still believe in the potential of a new R with W. Having W stay is not enough for me. Eventually I may have to decide enough is enough, but that is not today. TBH I rarely think about that these days.

Anyway. Faced with my situation continuing as is, I believe it is time for a new approach or rather a revamped version of my approach. I will still balance all the aspects of my situation and follow DB principles but I have three pronged approach to revamping things. Before outlining these this thinking came about with me not being happy with my situation. I cannot change that so I need to change.

The three principles of my latest change are:

1 Daily rituals. I am going to put in place simple short daily rituals to improve certain aspects of my life, principally breathing exercises,affirmations, gratitude... .. I am going to commit to doing these daily.

2 Goals/actions. This in itself is not new to me, but it is time to go bigger. I will start noting down all things little and small that I may like to do someday. I want to make this a habit. These will just be random thoughts. I will review this list often and pick stuff to do and create a bucket list of things I want to do before I die. This will be eventually printed and used to set aims/goals going forward. Based on these two lists I will generate a top ten list in order of importance and I will work towards achieving them.

I have listened to a lot about the law of attraction, about mindset , about positivity and taking inspired actions. This will be my version. In summary I will become clearer on what I want and make it happen.

3. Embrassing fully who I want to be. For various reasons which differed as I progressed on this journey I have limited myselfby placing self imposed barriers. I couldn't do X until this is achieved. I couldn't do Y until that ended. Sometimes this is inevitable and normal. But where it isn't I aim to remove those barriers one by one.

This includes with W. Regardless of where we are at or how she treats me, I can treat her the way I want. I have often said stuff like, when things are better I will be like Z. Or if things get worse I can do W. Now is time to test the theory of if I change the R will too. That is not the main objective of this, but an attractive benefit. I mainly want to be ME and act as I would in a normal R. This I will ease into and will keep in mind everything I have learned here over the last two years.

I have been dwelling on this for a good while now as I have a barrier blocking me. I am not sure how much is self inflicted but some of it is. Poor interactions with W stop me wanting to try, I just lose motivation.To help me get passed this I have firstly simply decided to do so, am writing here for accountability and I want to try a 100% no negativity approach for 3 weeks. For 21 days I will not say anything negative or critical to or about W ( or: n general). This includes passive aggressive behaviour and negative tones/looks etc. Ideally should include thoughts,but I will be lineant on myself with that. The catch is that if I exhibit negativity I restart my 21 day count. I don't believe that 21 is important but it is a tool to help eliminate negativity and at least improve awareness and hence control of it.

This is a very global view of my thinking going forward. Time to expand again. Wish me luck.

I like coming here and helping others or at least giving them my viewpoint, but going forward I may reduce my time on this forum. This project is ambitious and I may decide to focus on that. I will be around for a while to come but maybe not as much. Time will yell.

Ha who. I hope my update lived up to the "coming soon" announcement.Haha.

[SBJ]

Roist, good luck in your change of strategy. You are a great help and a true inspiration to those of us that want to stand for our marriages and feel that our W's are worth standing for.

Just remember what you have always said...
"First SURVIVE it, then LIVE through it and ultimately THRIVE." - Roist

[Gordie]

Roist--as always, you are inspiring and encouraging. Best wishes in your new approach...even if that means more time away from here. I love this detachment, strength and independence:

"Regardless of where we are at or how she treats me, I can treat her the way I want."

[FightOn]

Roist - best of luck on your new approach. It sounds wonderful. Please keep us posted as much as you can.

[Sotto]

Hello Roist, that sounds like a good plan to me. I must say I really do notice the difference when I practice the self-care. I just seem to be able to take things more in my stride. And yes there are ups and downs, but they are less affecting.

Your idea of goals is great too. I have found a little notebook helpful for this and I start a new page for any new goal I think of. Then I revisit it from time to time, adding steps on or ticking things off. It's rather organic and iterative, but seems to work for me! Whatever works for you I would say.

What I think is important for anyone is to remember - I am (first and foremost) an individual and I am also within a marriage. Looking after ourselves as individuals within the marital setting is a priority (and we don't always make it so...)

I like that your changed approach is you-centric but supports the preservation of the marriage too....best of luck with everything my friend.

[roist]

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

SBJ, that phrase sums it up nicely. Time to THRIVE.

Gordie, thanks for your kind words. This site helped me through many a rough patch. I am glad to be able to pay that back. When in crisis there is no price we can put on the help we receive here. I will gladly pay that back. I just need to step back a little for a while. I've said that before and didn't stay away long..... we'll see.

Fighton. Thanks for dropping by. I will update from time to time though I am going to use my time better so maybe not very detailed. I often intend to post here but end up using all my time replying to someone in need. That is fine with me as I am OK at the moment.

Sotto I value your view, do thanks for your input. I am excited about this and will do what I can to go as far as I can. No more false limits.

Best wishes my friends

[bttrfly]

these are wonderful!
xoxoxo

[Gordie]

Roist, thinking of you and hoping you are doing well in your new approach...particularly your 21 days of positivity!

[roist]

Thanks Gordie,

I am slowly putting it in place. I am taking the time to tweak it so I find my best fit before commiting to it fully. I imagine I will have it ironed out by the end of the month.

Despite never wishing it on anyone I realise the slowness and steadiness of my situation is an opportunity.

As for your question, I managed a few days with no criticism, which is pretty good but had a minor slip at the weekend so I am back to zero.Haha. it will be a long three weeks!!! Ha ha

My intention is not absolutely to achieve 100% no criticism but to minimize it, be aware when it occurs and mainly to ensure my mind is not stuck in criticising/negative thinking.

Dan Lefave has a good podcast and other info that I like and is coherent with my thinking behind my approach, if anyone wants more info.

Don't worry I am not just sitting around mulling over this, I am taking appropriate actions to. I organised a two hour mountain bike ride with friends to be followed by a party at the house next weekend. I am signed up for a half Marathon in the mountains on mountain bike tracks on June as well as committed to at least three other sporting events. I have accompanied my kids on various school outings. All and all I am packing more and more into my life.

Got to go.

Best wishes everyone

[SBJ]

roist, you are inspiring us all.

I hope your changes are a positive that you will feel and your W will see. I know you are doing this all for yourself, but it is nice when things rub off on the ones we love.

[roist]

Oops reset to zero again!!Hehehe. It's a balancing act between not being critical/negative and speaking up against some behavior. It wasn't major but not acceptable to me either. Looks like my work on being more assertive is working.

Interactions with W were much better afterwards.

I have not perfected my communication when doing this. Ideally I want to use the sandwich method where you say something positive, then the negative point and finish with a positive statement all related. Choice of words and phrasing stuff differently all help so I intend to continue until that becomes natural for me.

SBJ thanks for your kind words. I share bits of what I learn so others can use it too if they want, but I think each of us has to learn on our own and do so in relation to where they are at present on their own journey.

I believe my approach is right for me now. It is about becoming who I really want to be. That can only be positive. I also believe I can rebuild a better R with my W. I work towards that too indirectly by working on me. My W is not yet at a place where that is possible but neither is she at a place where it is impossible.

Best wishes

[HaWho]

Just want to chime in and say, good for you! Thanks for updating us and keep us posted.

[roist]

I wasn't going to post here but then I realised I have just passed the two year anniversary of joining this site. I am not sure that is celebrated as joining here was because of a crisis in my life.

During the last two years I have had some tough trials to get throughand many decisions to make. I have spun, I have reeled, I have advanced. I have slid back but overall I believe I have grown.

This site and the people here (past and present) really helped me when I needed it most. Thank you all. I am okay at the moment but it is reassuring to know I have support here should I need it.

It is easier to dish out advice here and offer my opinion to others.But I try to apply my own advice to my situation too.

At a glance my situation is quite similar to when I first came here. That zaps motivation if I am honest. That plus seeing her parents live a resentful separate bedroom M. That is not for me. I often feel like telling my W that I will not finish like them and that even our situation will not be enough for me eventually. At this stage it has been almost 15 months since we had a R talk and that one was after 12 months without one.

I can see my W is unhappy. I am willing to set her free if she needs to leave to be happy. I have the impression she feels she has no choice so she feels stuck. Tbh sometimes I want to set her free to have a happier life myself.

Her leaving no longer fills my with fear nor dread. I have loads of ideas about who I would be if that happened and what I would do. I can see that with excitement and enthusiasm.

I can also see a happy future of us staying together. Frankly that is probably a harder path but for the moment I am still committed to it. Sometimes I picture this future too well and believe it is now. Reality does not take long to break that image. I know I do not have it YET. Maybe I never will, but then again maybe I will. And in the meantime it is much more agreeable to think positively.

That being said my W is struggling and is not happy. This week on fb she liked a page that talked about people being unhappy but feeling obliged to conform and how it is better to not live such an existence even if people won't understand your choice. I totally agree that to live unhappy is not healthy. I think I share many many similar thoughts as my W about the negative side of our existence. I don't know the context to this message but could just be her supporting one of her struggling friends. I won't dwell on it but it does tend to confirm where her thinking is at the moment.

I see a better future. I believe in the possibility of a better us. I am realistic about the gap that exists.

After rereading, I wanted to state that we are not living a resentful M and although I am not happy with our situation I am determined to remove resentment and negativity from my side of the equation.Being consistent with what I will and won't tolerate from her has helped her side of the equation.

At the moment I don't feel like making an effort to work on the R. But according to Michelle that is exactly when you should most. So later this week I have an opportunity to go out alone with W. I will think on this and invite her this evening.

Appears I needed to talk to ye after all!! Thanks for reading.

I got to go work. Part of my stepping back from this site was to improve focus at work. I am doing OK but am not where I want to be.

Again best wishes

[Gordie]

Roist,

Thanks for continuing to post 2 years!!! You are a very patient and resilient man. It is inspiring.

[HaWho]

Roist - though you say your sitch has not changed that much, I can say I have seen much growth in you.

There is a peace and a calm about you. It resonates when you write that you know in the long run you can see yourself happy w/your wife and happy w/out her.

Keep on trudging forward, marching toward the best possible you!

[roist]

Every now and then I have periods where I have had enough of limbo. I want more than my W can give. Usually I bounce back relatively quickly and continue trudging along focusing on other stuff.

My W is a great mother and a good housewife. That is great and I show/express my appreciation/gratitude for that on an on going basis. It is important to focus on the good stuff we have in our lives as many of us focus too much on what is missing. I wholeheartedly believe that is the way to live. BUT for me the part that is missing is important too in a normal healthy R. So at times I don't want to continue living like this.

At the moment I am going through one of those times. I can hear foreveryoung telling me to follow Michelles advice and tell my W I will not continue living this way indefinitely. Heck I was close to doing that this weekend. Maybe it is my path, but I wasn't in a good place so I preferred to let my mind settle.

I can see improvement in my W in many aspects of her life. She is restarting doing more stuff, being creative, expressing positively about smells/sights/memories/activities. I understand that our R is often the last piece to improve, so I should dig deeper for patience.

These down phases are fewer and farther apart than earlieriin my situation. But each time I go through them I feel bad for being in this situation without any better solutions than the previous time. I need to explore that more.

I think I got comfortable with being uncomfortable.

I miss my friend Zephyr who used to post in newcomers. His W never left either and he was ahead of me with respect to timeframe.I respected and appreciated his input as it came from someone walking a very similar path.

Normally I can keep my emotions guarded but I admit this weekend I was distant and didn't care to hide it.

So I am sharing my thoughts here as often just expressing them is enough for me to recenter myself. I believe it is possible to live a fairly full life within a marriage crisis, but maybe I am not strong enough to do so. I acknowledge I have done fairly well but still.

One thing that strikes me writing these words is that I have sat here writing such words several times before. At these times I am having an internal struggle between LBS and WAS thoughts. Having WAS thoughts helps me have empathy for her and her demons.

Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Best wishes fellow DBers

[Sotto]

Hi Roist, sorry this weekend is a tough one. It's really helpful not to make big decisions when you are finding things tough. Let a little time pass and let yourself settle, then you can see where you are at.

I have never walked in your shoes - my XH veritably sprinted out of our marriage, so I haven't experienced the 'trudging along' as you describe it. It must be hard and I think it is the right thing to do to dig deep - particularly when you are a long time married and have children and property together. So, I don't think you will come to regret the struggle and the standing.

FWIW, I think you do fantastically well - and your 'fairly well' below understates things. We should not under estimate the effort needed to try and sustain a relationship during times like these - when we are hard wired for connection and we so crave it.

I don't have any answers better than this. But I do think if you operate from your most thoughtful and persistent self, and act in accordance with your values, you can never go too far wrong.

Best of luck from one of your fan base

[Gordie]

Roost,

Oh my, you are human! You are always so encouraging to me and so focused on the positive if it of course inspiring.

Okay, you are having a down moment or detour, that's fine. You are acknowledging it and dealing with it like a mature human being.

You have been on this road a long, long time. Onky you know your situation and when you have had enough. But as has already been said, don't make any snap or emotional decisions. You owe that to yourself.

[WillDo]

I have been thinking/wanting to reply on your thread based on your question.

I have had a down 2 months ago and haven't been able to recover from it. It was mainly fuelled from a picture which I accidentally saw. W had sent a picture with her and OM to MIL. It was OM's birthday. Just a picture in a coffee shop. I didn't confront her about it. She doesn't know I have seen it. Nevertheless, it was bugging me. Was feeling just like how you are feeling for almost 2 months. So once we had an argument back in February, she moved to another room. Now insist that I should move to our other house which just got out of rent. I feel horrible. I am resisting to move and I am telling her that. Well she is saying it would be her to move with the Ds. I am chasing for repairs of the flat as it needs work. You know what that feels like digging your own grave. We all will be out abroad for 6 weeks. She will be at a course for 5 weeks. I will be working from abroad. And the Ds will be either at camp or with me. Once we get back, she wants me out.

What I am trying to say is that with long limbo time like ours, it feels that the WW is looking for the window to run away. Don't give her that chance.

The WAS can't find the connection. Happy to continue as a non-sex marriage. Enjoy the changes they have seen of the DBer but as it doesn't click nothing happens.

Possibly the DBer is busy with GAL activities, keeping his hopes low and getting prepared for the unwanted or wanted. Regarding the unwanted outcome, DBer has worked on him/herself so feelings of desperation are low. I have seen people even using dating sites. If the wanted outcome is there, then the marriage is resorted.

[roist]

Sotto. Thank you for your comments. There is many a wise word in your response. I am not sure how I feel about having fans but I do appreciate your support.

Gordie. Sorry to break the illusion that I am a DB machine!! I am very much human and my M crisis is on going as are my own struggles. At this stage any decision I make could not be considered snap/rash. But I agree it is better to settle the mind before deciding any major decisions.Feelings are good guides in life but make lousy drivers. They indicate if you are on the right path or not but are very fickle in determining a new path. Thank you for sharing your thoughts

Willdo, I will drop back to your thread when I get a chance. Our timeframes are similar though it appears our situations differ. I hear your pain and understand your struggle. Thanks for your support

[bttrfly]

{{{{{{{Roist}}}}}}}

Just popping in to say sending support your way and hugs xoxoxo

[roist]

Thanks btrfly. Appreciate the support and hugs.

Mood update: I am not high but I have bounced back. I have always been clear that this isn't how I want to live indefinitely. I admire those who have absolute resolution that they will stick it out regardless for however long it takes. That attitude will surely help them, but I believe we should not want to save our M at any cost. Standing any which way can be more damaging to the lbs than losing their spouse. I guess these low moments allow me to assess that and determine what is best for me.

So I will follow my chosen path for another while. I said last year that I would read SSM by Michelle. Yesterday I ordered it and another similar one specifically for men in my situation. I never read this because I believed my W wanted out and not just to stop any connection with me, so I wasn't sure if it fitted our situation. But it is something else to tick off my tried list.

I have read the 4 stages outlined on this forum. I have probably done some of what is outlined, so I imagine I will shorten some of the time lines especially on working on me. That being said it will do no harm to revisit that. Until I read the book I don't know, but I envisage giving myself a few months to follow the principles and should be well into the getting her on board phase when I hit my Third anniversary of when I decided to save my.M. let's see how I feel then.

Thanks for following

Best wishes

[WillDo]

Cheeseless Tunnel. I am struggling to know what to change. I think that is what you are trying to do.See what else can be tried. I find myself focusing on W and OM. Whereas these days I read re-read (and thanks for your comments) my thread. I need to focus on my Ds. The dilemma is separation takes that away from me.

I hope your relationship with your Ss is strong.

And you will have a more constructive dialogue with your W.

[Coly23]

Hey Roist, just stopping by to give you some support.

I'm glad you have managed to bounce back from your recent low. I don't know about you but I find it so exhausting trying to bounce back from one low after another. Sometimes I just want to remain a deflated ball, just lying there, limp. No expectations of being bouncy anymore. Fortunately having a teenager stops me from wallowing in my deflatedness!

(((Roist)))

[HaWho]

Having recently gone through one of these same periods of questioning, I find it's all part of moving forward. We reach some peaks, valleys and plateaus; then we forge the next bit of our path. Sometimes we take a turn in a different direction. Sometimes we plug along a little further on the same path. But, there is movement.

I do think the key for you is to eat life with a bigger spoon. Your wife may perk up and start to notice she is missing out/things are changing. Either she will awaken or she will not. If she does not, you will have some amazing memories of these years. And as your kids are young, it certainly can include them (and your w if she wants to join). Is she lethargic? Does she join in activities?

In my own depression I did begin to notice that others were quite engaged in the world while I was not. It was the beginning of the end of my depression.

Glad you are feeling better.

[Gordie]

Roist,

You sound good. I second Coly23's feelings. Way to bounce back.

[roist]

Coly, yes the accumulation effect should not be underestimated. Each knock or low may not be in itself terrible but over time small waves can cause a big cliff to crumble. I do what I can to limit the accumulation effect.

Hawho, I love hearing from you. You have weathered a lot and are an example of what can be endured. You have great wisdom to share with others.

Gordie, thanks for your support

Two months ago I felt I was letting excuses stop me doing more in my life, so I signed up for a half Marathon in nearby mountains, so I would have extra motivation to get out and train. At the time I had a small injury. I rested it and then did eight sessions of physiotherapy and still the injury remained. This prevented any real training preparation until two weeks ago.I still believed I could finish the race. Saturday was race day. Half an hour before the start a rain storm started. The country trails became waterlogged and muddy. I taped my muscles and bandaged them to reinforce the injured calves.

It was hard. The lack of training plus the mud which sucked on each step or slipped under you, made it a trudge. The first climb was two miles long. Going through the race I adopted the mentality" just keep going forward" . I trudged along. It reminded my of my battles for my M. Despite many challenges and less than ideal conditions in both cases the mantra is "don't give up". I didn't know if my energy levels nor my injury would last for the race, but each step brought me closer to the finish line. I won't go on and on about the race but let's just say it was tough. I got to the finish line. But not only that which would have been enough for me to be proud, but I also did it in a time that I had hoped to aim for with training and good weather. I also finished ahead of over 80% of the participants.TThat isn't important as in this kind of run everyone has their own race.

On my M front I still continue to see improvements overall in W. She does seem to be getting better. No improvement in us but I am still in that race! She has been critical of me but to be honest her view point is justified. Not 100% but she isn't wrong in what she's saying. But I do see improvement in this too. Firstly she shared her view which she stopped doing for a while. Secondly she wasn't disrespectful in how she spoke to me. Guess she knows that doesn't work for me!! Thirdly it is something I want to improve myself so no reason not to work on it.

I continue to act as I want to be in a R. Without going overboard I do initiate physical contact between us. Nothing sexy. Grab her arm when walking, a touch here and there. Some people advocate this as a stepping stone to rebuilding connection. Maybe it is. It could push done WAS away.But for me it beats being cold and distant. I won't live like that.

That's all for now. Thanks for reading along.

Best wishes

[bttrfly]

Hi Roist
Stopping by to say hello. Your attitude is so inspiring to me. Thanks for your support on my thread; here to support you as well. Congrats on finishing the race well ahead of the pack despite the injury. Metaphor for life, eh?

xoxoxoxo

[roist]

Hi bttrfly.

Thank you for showing support. I appreciate that.

[roist]

I have finished reading SSM by Michelle. Michelle's approachaand thinking process is very similar to that in DR, which is coherent. In the book she tries to talk to everyone affected be it male, female, more desiring or less desiring. Not everything applies to everyone but it gives insight to the other side of things.

I took some action points away from the book which I probably will outline in my next thread (#10!!)

I also have a similar book written for guys in a SSM. When I finish that I will use both to fine tune my approach going forward.

Best wishes to all readers

[Gordie]

Interested in what you think given that you didn't call your m sex starved, right?

[roist]

Gordie I am happy to share my opinions but I don't fully understand your question. My M is sex starved but not only. I am working on improving the rest with glacial progress. I believe it is possible to turn my situation around.time will tell.

[roist]

was or what 10

New thread. See ye over there