Infidelity/WAH, my story pt 7

[PsySara]

Last thread

Hello friends, been a little MIA while working. Things have kind of stalled with WH. I've been using the energy to take care of myself. I stopped having lunches with WH because he appeared to be just going through the motions. I felt like I was pursuing and he was becoming more distant. Frankly I am just exhausted and don't have the strength to work on us.

We have a MC session this Thursday for 2 hours. I am not even sure what to say or if we should set goals or....? The result of the HOV DNA probe is back and it's a "bad" strain. The doc needs to do a procedure and then we will decide is further treatment is necessary based off those results. WH asked about it today, I told him the information. He quietly apologized. I told him thank you for the apology and then moved the conversation elsewhere. He has shown to be inconsistent with his behavior after a bomb drop of this so I am not going to lean on him for support. I don't want him coming to the procedure as historically he does things like that more for his reasons rather than support. (the birth of our last child was awful as he sat in the corner ignoring me while reading his phone) I may just go alone and make sure to take some ibuprofen before hand.

[PsySara]

HPV testing* not HOV

[Surfer]

Sara,

I can see you are going through a lot at the moment. I hope you watched/listened the LRT clip I mentioned (if not I am sure you will find time).

Was you H like this with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd child? I expect not. I expect he changed. If he did, he can change back. You are taking a very strong stance and pulling back a little is the right thing to do. The clip I mentioned covers MWD talking about this in a physical context (your H's LL of course).

I know things are tricky at the moment as you seem to going from upbeat to spinning. Try not to mind read him. He needs to sort himself out, you can't do anything for him so don't try too hard.

Personally, I think family time is good, and LL use is good. But you have to so it at the right time, when they are receptive and when its the right time for you. If they are not being receptive or it's not working for you. Going dark a little seems like a plan.

Have you tried dressing a little sexy and going out to dinner with a friend but not telling him where you are going? MWD talks about this too - keep him guessing rather than you doing this.

I hope all of this helps.

You are doing so well. We all have wobbles where we feel its too much. Keep doing this you are an inspirational, just keep those emotions in check and rest yourself however you best do that. Be kind to yourself. You deserve that and much more.

He may be missing the supermum and superwife part of you, but keep going. He will see it eventually. He can't deny it forever when everyone else sees it.

Surfer.

[Natus]

Wishing you the best in such a trying time.

I unfortunately dont have such encouraging words to the effect of Surfers. Im more likely to encourage you to tell him you will murder him in his sleep if he pisses you off one more time.

Show a little teeth under the supermom/wife.

[ForGump]

tell him you will murder him in his sleep if he pisses you off one more time.

Love it ^^^



I still think you ought to make him articulate in his own words what the hell ***he*** wants out of life. What's his vision. How's it all going to work.

What does *he* want to do as a parent? How much does he want to parent? How often does he want to be with them?

What does *he* want in a lover/partner? Does he want the feeling he had w/ the OW to last forever? Is it realistic? What will he do if that feeling fades w/ his next lover? Will he just move on to the next one, ad infinitum? Is that what he wants for himself?

He's making you choose for him. You've made it clear what you want. It's time for him to make it clear what he wants, and confront the realities of his immature desires.

-From the eye of my own hurricane

[Vanilla]

Having had a procedure (abnormal cell cervical removal), please don't go alone. It's uncomfortable and even with the best of operatives painful and uncomfortable.

The ride home is when you may be weepy, tired and distracted. If nothing else a little bruised.

I suggest you plan for a safe friend to go with you, and often not the closest best one, but the calmest, gentlest soul you can find.

Plan on a shower and some comfort food, space to sleep and heal, gentle music, a light comedy, or fluffy book. Take some distracting reading material to read, something uplifting.

Let go, don't try to be brave and do this alone, it's a big thing and very important. Someone with you who can take notes for you, ask the questions you may forget and be on hand for support.

Get that support in, please do this.

From a woman who has been there, from someone who has had to go to screenings for VD, because of the H I married and his doings. Treat yourself with real care, special extreme self care. This isn't an ingrowing toenail or removal of a skin tag. This is a nasty virus which could threaten your life and at best your wellbeing.

I followed eat glow nourish program, cut all sugar from my diet, juiced for 21 days. Took vitamins and all manner of antI fungal and viral remedies.

Be kind to yourself, this is in my opinion very important.

Oh yes, and cry, get angry, weep, let the emotions out. And oh yes, no shame or guilt on it too. I was very clear with what I did with the Giggalo, I was going to get tested and it was limited public knowledge. It is in my D papers.

And when you get the all clear, throw a Party!

Please take extreme self care to heart, you are very precious.

V

[PsySara]

So MC was a disaster. Wh initially started out saying he was feeling we were better at communicating and we were "okay." This was after him giving me the silent treatment for 3 days for something he could not remember in the first place. (he said he forgot why he was stone-walling me) I told her that I was confused because at best we were up and down, that just as recently as last week WH was pushing for divorce. WH said he felt this was an attack from me and the therapist (after she asked about his feelings) and it quickly spiraled into him saying he didn't want to be with me.

The MC said that we obviously had different goals (mine was to work on the marriage and perhaps salvage it and WH was...well he never really clarified what his goals were but he point blank said he didn't want to be with me.) At that point the MC asked if I wanted him to leave or stay in the MC room. I was like...WTF just happened here? She continually focused on how I should realize WH is not in this marriage and implied I should leave WH.

So there you have it, MC fail. WH went over his list of "reasons" why he does't want me.

1. We're not compatible
2. I am not "into" cars and bikes
3. I like to talk, he said he doesn't like to talk or listen
4. I lash out when angry
5. I didn't used to dress sexy at home (I've have been since DBing)
6. He likes outdoorsy things (I invited him camping recently which he flatly refused because he was worried about bugs and stuff, I am a HUGE camping fan but haven't been able to until recently and WH has shown no interest)

His list went on and on but he couldn't name one thing positive about me besides "she's pretty and nice to me." MC just looked at me with pity in her eyes and continued to focus on WH having "different goals" than mine. I said that I despised the idea of divorce and raising the kids as gypsies and that copious research shows the kids suffer no matter the parent's ability to compromise and co-parent. She started trying to tell me that there is a possibility the kids would be unscathed and I shut that down, pure stats disagree.

I walked out crying and WH was stone faced. He brought me back by work to pick up my car and we talked again some more. Overall he thinks I am feeling "guilty" about something and maybe that's why I am fighting so hard for our marriage. My face was like...WHAT??? HE said he felt I was using the kids as an excuse and that I really am doing this for my own selfish reasons. It got heated after that and he asked me to get out of the car. I decided I was done meekly "giving him space" so I calmly said, "Nope."

WH: "What do you mean nope? Is this some kind of psychological torture?"
Me: "Nope, I'm gonna just tie myself to your chest and be like 'Talktometalktometalktome.'
WH: starts laughing hysterically and immediately the atmosphere lightens
Me; "I guess I could be more humane and put a baby carrier on your chest and climb in there so we can be CLOOOOOOSE."

At this point things lightened up a lot and I told him I just didn't want to continue living in this bizarre silence where we are uncomfortable and angry all the time. WEe don't have to talk about us but at least don't shut down and not even discuss basic things. He agreed and said he would meet me at home and we could talk more if I wanted.

So when we met at home (WH had to pick up the cat from the vets) I just talked to him like a co-worker and hid my pain. Right now I am raw and so very sad. For some reason I had hoped the MC would result in WH feeling hopeful and optimistic about us; instead we had a Gottman certified therapist tell me that this marriage is basically doomed because WH's "goals" are different.

[JksD]

Hi, sending you virtual support.

Your wh is still swinging. And my dear supersara, so are you.

You can see things clearer when your pendulum stops swinging. You dont have to wait for wh's pendulum to stop swinging; you can't make it stop.

But you know those infinity pendulum decorative thingies that you put on desks? If you put your pendulum beside wh's, both of your pendulums will always be swinging. You will be feeding off each other's negative energy.

Move your pendulum away. It will still swing. But not as badly as it will if it's still next to wh's.

I like how you're interacting calmly with wh. You dun need to guilt trip him. He's doing the job himself.

(((Sara))) You are a superhero, wobbles, backslides and all. Don't feel bad when you're being human, but learn and then do better next time.

[SH_]

It breaks my heart to read this and see that the path you follow continues to create such pain my dear Sara.

I have tried to keep my thought zipped up here because I see that you have your focus on the approach you want to take and will not be deterred...

But I can't help but notice how the approach appears very contrary to DBing...

LRT

It is what MWD indicates as your best hope to save the marriage...
No guarantees.

LRT should be triggered in extreme situations...
WH says they want a divorce in no uncertain terms and appears to mean it...
He has said this over and over and over... Check
You and your WH are separated physically...
You were for quite some time...and while you are not now, his ongoing behavior and words would more than say that you are.... Check
You and WH live together but have very little to do with each other, little to no communication and little sexual contact...
Check
Your WH has filed for divorce...
Not as of yet, says it regularly...Check

MWD says she is not an expert on what works, but she is an expert on what does not work.
She says and I quote,

"If you keep pushing your spouse, you will push him or her right out of the door. You might as well file for divorce yourself because your actions are moving things in that direction. I know how bad you feel and I also know that it's human nature to try to hold on to important things in your life that seem to be evaporating into thin air. But I also know that it's human nature to want to escape when you feel coerced or pressured. So you have to stop pursuing your spouse immediately, even if you don't feel like it. It's the only chance you have of saving your marriage."

Sara, I am swinging a 2x4 here, because it is time...I challenge you to seek some advice here on the boards from some veterans of DBing...I don't want to diminish the support that you have been receiving, but it is not pushing you hard enough to do what is right for you IMHO. It is supportive to you, but, as in the case of helping others that may be on a path to destructive outcomes, we can enable, or share some tough love and guidance in a different direction...ultimately the choices are up to you, but I am concerned that there is very little DBing guidance being provided to you...or better said, the guidance being supported is with the DB principles for a MR before it hits the critical point that 90% are at when we come to the boards...I have shared several times, your best chance according to MWD and DB proncipes are LRT...

Your last update sounds very desperate...and as a man, who did not want a D and believes in marriage with all of my heart, I felt uncomfortable at what you did...I would feel trapped and manipulated in the manner you used the children and jokes to brush aside any feelings he has...I also have to tell you that it is not attractive or becoming of such a smart and strong woman...especially towards a man that many of us have little to no respect for what he has already done to you.
He should be begging you...PERIOD!

Your husband clearly has his issues...
I ask you, how can he work through them with you there focused on saving a marriage that he desperately wants out of based on his actions and words...
human nature tends to lead individuals to want to be right about what they think and feel...You understand this, correct? You stick to your beliefs and feeling very stoutly...
As MWD says, if another pushes them on this, the will put up more walls of defenses and make them run for the hills(okay, so I spiced up what she said a bit for dramatic effect)...in essence, you are not only handing him the bricks to build the wall, you are building it with him and gassing up his car so he can speed away.

I may catch flak for sharing my observations and thoughts here as I know it is very against the grain and flavor of all that share and support you.

I have seen it expressed in the forums many times that we need to recognize when the marriage is dead...stop trying to revive it, because the best you will get is a frankenstein monster, do you really want him to stick around out of guilt?
Grieve the dead marriage.
Then get to working on you and then you will create the best chance to invite a new and better marriage...and perhaps that MR can be with your WH.

Please stop clawing at the open emotional wounds WH inflicted on you...you know what I am saying here based on your profession...self care is a must before you can even think to provide first aid to others...stop trying to aid him, while you are bleeding emotionally all over the place.
Please.

I pray for you and your family...
I cry for you in my heart, because you have given everything and he continues to disrespect you...
I hesitate to ask you this...what would you counsel your daughter if you were seeing this happen to her?

Please value yourself enough to step back and follow the best advice that we all have learned of with MWD...
Love yourself as much as you desire your WH to love you...

My dear Sara...I wish I could help you see you as many of us do...you deserve much...you have the principles that can raise you to a place worthy of who you are at your core...
Only you can make the decision to do so...
Get out of the cheerless tunnel ASAP
I will continue to pray that it does not happen after irreparable emotional damage can take place.


(((((Sara)))))

[BluWave]

SH, I agree with what you say. I admit there are times I hold back from posting things because I don't want to rub people the wrong way. I have noticed that Sara, Cherry, Surfer, and JksD have developed an awesome circle of support. Perhaps others do not want to give advice that feels contrary to what they post to one another, as they may feel outnumbered. I don't know, just my thoughts.

SH, I respect your honesty and advice, and that you spend so much time on people. It is a risk you take, but I know it only comes from good intentions. And you try and do it so lovingly and with an open heart. Better from you than me. I can definetly lack that grace at times. I would imagine many others hold back from posting as well.

Sara, I follow along here but haven't posted. If you read my posts, you know I didn't DB well. What I did do well in my sitch was to draw very firm boundaries around myself. I did not show H love and affection before he commuitted to our M entirely. This worked for me but as you say, we all must do what works for us.

In your sitch, the only time I recall your H showing his commitment and willing to do the work was when you let go entirely. There was a time that you were so fed up, you spoke about being done and wanting to file yourself. He got nervous and started pining for you. It seems he has been very hot/cold with your. His list of "reasons" for not wanting to work on the M demonstrate how little he has worked on himself (and is willing to) and it appears he lacks understanding of the importance of M and family in general.

So there has been a lot of push and pull between you guys. As of now I agree with SH, his actions and words, have been fairly consistent that he wants out. I don't know if any of us believe that, but we have to take what we are offered. You deserve better than these crumbs. I think you are teaching him that he can do/say/treat you anyway and you will be right there waiting. Is that really okay with you?

What if you just let it rest for now. Can you try and be okay with not knowing the outcome of this M? Maybe it's time to table the R talks, the MC, and anything that causes you emotions or stress around this. I just can't see how any of that is good for you or the M.

It's hard to accept that, but he's not giving you a choice. In the mean time you can go back to DB principles, GAL, allow some detachment, and give yourself permission to give up the fight for a bit. You must be exhausted. You deserve a break. Maybe he needs to see you are okay without him and that your life will go on. I think it's time to let go.

Blu

[Bippy78]

I honestly believe 99% of WAS go to MC for the single reason of saying they really tried, and they use a "professional" as yet another excuse to add to their repertoire of blame, spinning, and obfuscation. So, personally, I would give VERY little credit to any part of that. I honestly don't understand why people see it as such a life preserver.

Not to be a debbie downer, but I just don't want you to give MC either a thumbs up or down. I have yet to see a case in DBing where it made a significant difference, but I have seen MANY cases where it made no difference or even hurt the relationship.

Chin up!

[PsySara]

You guys are right, I've been doing it all wrong. I've gone counter to DBing practices and have actually done some huge mistakes. I'e been pursuing, pressuring, setting expectations. I've completely lost my way. This has had the predictable outcomes and completely turned WH off while also making me look pathetic.

This HPV thing has messed me up really bad. I started expecting him to comfort me in the way I need and he may be unable to do so. I woke at 4 am this morning feeling utterly despondent so I decided to watch the LRT videos again. I felt my face flush red as she recommended against exactly what I had been doing. I can't do piecing if WH isn't really wanting to piece. In his more relaxed moments he will say things about wanting to piece but his actions show otherwise. So I need to return to the drawing board and use a beginner's mind.

1. I REALLY need to get a handle on my anger. I still lash out at WH when he says things that hurt me. This accomplishes absolutely nothing, leaves me feeling worse and also paints me as a loose cannon. I think I will either read something on anger management or maybe start serious IC with the goal for me to manage my anger better, my kids deserve that.Furthermore, I deserve it, I need the peace.

2. I have really fallen off the bandwagon with GAL. Too often I am waiting on WH's plans after work, lunch, weekend, whatever. I need to start scheduling stuff for just me, me and the kids, or me and friends sans WH. The easiest place to start is a co-worker does Taco Tuesdays for girl's only. I will make my goal to attend that next Tuesday.

3. WH can't give me the emotional support I desperately need right now so it's time to dust off the lifelines I have available. I need to start calling my close friends and spilling my guts. I really want to pour it out to my cousin but he doesn't know about April so...I will think about that.

We have plans to go to Disney in a few weeks for DD's birthday and also just to take a break from life. Next week I have the procedure for my HPV and I don't really have a local close female friend to bring with me for support. I don't feel comfortable bringing WH even though I suspect he will want to come. Historically he has done these type of things but has not been able to give me the emotional support I need. I think I will have to do this solo even though it's not recommended. I just don't have any other option.

Dory is right, I need to pull back from WH and stop letting his swings increase my swings. I feel like I have regressed and have fallen back on all the bad behaviors of codependency and desperation that made the aftermath of the affairs so agonizing for me. I need to realize that the man I married is not the man living with me right now. The person I loved is not here, rather this broken/lost guy needs to be left to his own devices. He chose to throw away our marriage and it's dead now. I am going to have to go through the grieving process and move on. So forgive me my friends, I will be coming here a LOT to vent and spew my rage/anguish. I think the reality of the monumental damage wrought on our M is sinking in and it's horrific.

[Surfer]

Sara,

Look SH and Blu have really created food for thought here. you add to this too.

However this

I've been doing it all wrong.

Is utter Bullsh!t.

You have not been doing to wrong. You have been trying to get it right. That involves being human. Everyone backslides, makes a wrong turn, gets on the rollercoaster. You are doing it right, its the way everyone does - you learn by your mistakes. Okay you may have made mistakes but you WILL get there.

No self-pity. One of your primary goals is to love and respect yourself the way you wish your H would (as others have pointed out). Listen to MWD's LRT again and again. It's a great help....you know this and if you need to post all the time. So what.

In terms of talking - it helps. Be careful about who you talk to though - you have to undo all the pain the recipient of your talk feels at some point so check the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" part of the MWD LRT downloads. IC's are good I find - personally after a point they open up wounds a little. I think there is a time you need them though and a time when you no longer do. An IC that just listens might be really good. Although an unconnected and discreet female friend would be good IMHO. I relied on my male and female friends - I no longer need to. Exercise is good too of course, you now this.

MC was not the best idea in fairness. But if you don't try how do you know. We have all done it. We did. My W used it to spew. They want an audience for the re-written history. It makes the history live for them. Personally, it seems that neither the MC process or lady is not right for you at this point. Our MC lady had pretty much the same approach although she told my W "she was the problem" - that went down well (as I am sure you can imagine.....oh dear). The point here is just move on from it.

Also, take the smart parts of what you do and "see" them. Focus on the positives - that chat in the car. You laughed together!!! If the MC process brought that about - it was worth it to some degree.

Let MWD talk directly to you in the LRT downloads. It will help to guide you. Like all of us we need to stay as detached as possible as part of the process we also need to focus. The key bullet points that accompany the downloads are good for focus.

Also, - no expectations and learn to love yourself (this too is a choice). Become the best you can be. FOR YOU ONLY. No pretending - it needs to be for you. You need to be able to look in the mirror and see a person you love and respect. If you don't neither will he. My bet is, he does not love and respect himself either. My W struggles to look in a mirror at times - I never really understood this.

You will get there Sara. I am sure. Where "there" is, is happiness. The sooner you get there - the sooner your H will see you happy and confident and that my friend is the nearest thing to the magic bullet you will find!!!

Now, chin up. Sort out the heath side of things and march on. Detach, No expectations, GAL and have some fun with friends and kids. This Christmas is for fun! Get planning it and have it. No regrets, no looking back.

Surfer.

[Ginger1]

As I had posted to you before, I think the DB process is overwhelming you, mainly because you have indeed executed it so well, but aren't yielding the results you hoped for.

What I would suggest to you is step away from everything and analyze what YOU are getting out of the DB process. There is a fair amount of us who didn't save our M's. But I think almost anyone coming here can say they took something or many valuable things from the process for themselves.

Do you feel like you are?

[BluWave]

Sara, I personally do not think you have been doing anything wrong. This is difficult, terribly painful, and there is no recipe for success really. Much like having children, we must learn as we move through it and raise them.

I admire your patience and commitment to him--he certainly has put you through it all and then some, yet you remain loyal and present. It's more than most could do.

Anyhow, I am sorry for what you are going through. Please don't be so hard on yourself. You deserve all the love and appreciation. If he can't offer it, I hope you can find it in yourself. (((Sara)))

Blu

[Sotto]

Hi Sara, I think the advice from Blu and SH has merit. Do you notice that when you pursue, his position gets more entrenched? And the time you truly had enough, he got quite rattled. Pursuit and distance.

Personally, I think you have been swinging along up, down and around with his every mood. Time to cut that emotional tie loose I would say.

For now, plough your own furrow and start making some new plans for yourself. Stop worrying about what he may think and do - whether it may or may not save the M.

Just do what suits you for now and get yourself recharged and healed. Ginger is also right - DBing is a way of life. Sometimes marriages get saved to - but first and foremost, it's a way of life.

Xx

[Vanilla]

Sara

So far you ignore my posts to look after you.

Your old M is over, not only that your WH keeps telling you this by everything he does.

Gracious an STD is a physical assault.


Sweetheart, you are in denial.

Been there, got the T-shirt. I empathise.

You are not looking after you, I think you are attemping to save your M at your own expense.

V

[Vanilla]

So Sara

Are you angry I told you how to feel?

You can choose to be irritated by it or annoyed, you have every right to do so. No one should dictate to you about thoughts or feelings. This applies to the board members too.

So let me rewrite my post to you

So, so far Sara you have not commented on my posts to tell you to take great care of yourself.

I believe your old M is over and your WH is telling you in every way he can.

An STD can be considered a physical assault.

Please look after you, I believe you are trying to save your M at the expense of your health and wellbeing. Extreme self care Sara is important.

Please listen and consider.

V

[Surfer]

Hi Sara

I just wanted to stop by and say I hope you are okay.

Sometimes this can be a really tough journey. We feel so much pain. It's hard to shake it. But we can and we will. We do it temporarily and I am sure it's just a case of having the gaps between the pain getting longer to the point it becomes a little - meh!

I hope you are getting some peace and respite from the pain and frustrations you have been struggling with recently.

You will get there Sara, focus on that. You are a determined, kind, generous lady and if your H can't see that and be happy with that he has issues that you can't help him with. By realising that and stopping questioning the sitch and knowing it's him that has the issues, not you, you can hopefully move forward.

Be kind to yourself Sara you deserve that.

Take care.

Surfer.

[SH_]

Sara,

I am encouraged by your response...
You can see some light in the distance...

In my observations with you, the habit is to swing...the emotions control your behavior...
The goal I challenge you in is to learn and take action on bridling and channeling the emotions for your benefit...

Anger is good, and a part of the process...and it can be great if harnessed appropriately
Please request that Vanilla share the wisdom on anger...you are in need of such knowledge..
Vets have noticed your plight...they are reaching out...recognize this...embrace it...much wisdom and strength is being gifted to you...be gracious in the receiving of the gift.

Ginger is tuff as nails and can share cold hard realities so that you may benefit...strength and confidence can be earned......train with her...

Sotto is a master of self care...much knowledge and understanding for you... peace and calm can be obtained...counsel with her...

Vanilla is a guru on much that is emotional intelligence...self mastery can be worked towards...confidence of thought, emotions and feelings will be learned...sit and learn from her.

The focus is you...it always has been here...DBing...has many other names in principles if you seek further...self must come first...relationships...the kind that we all desire...can and will only come as we maintain that focus.

My time is short...but you know that I am here in support of you...since the beginning of your residency in this community...I am praying for you my dear friend.

Please take the hands that reach to you...you do not have to go at this alone.

(((((Sara)))))

[Ginger1]

Sara,

Much like Vanilla, I have posted to you, and I have never gotten a response. And much like V- I was addressing the self care issue.

We stress it because of it's importance. And it has many areas of importance. You cannot serve from an empty vessel. Right now you completely are. Your focus is DBing your butt off with a tunnel vision goal of getting your husband to recommit to your marriage the way you would be fulfilled.

It is quite obvious you are a driven, successful, in control individual. You seem to have accomplished everything you put your mind to. You are reading,and studying these videos and putting in med school level work on this.

I think changing your perspective and your goals out of the DB process might be beneficial. DB for YOU. Make it a way of life for YOU. If your H deal with his issues, maybe one day he will turn around and look at what a wonderful, emotionally and physically independent woman you are. Maybe he won't. ANd that will be his loss because you will be your own, happy person.

Maybe, just maybe it's time to face the fact he cannot be the man you need right now or feel the way you want him to feel about you and the M. You can DB until the cows come home, but until he is right with himself, this wont happen.

And for what it is worth, the anger you have with him is healthy. Expressing the anger is even healthy.

I want you to go back to what I posted yesterday. WHat are YOU getting out of this DB process? Because YOU are the one who is supposed to be reaping benefits. ANd not benefits because your H became a changed man and recommitted to the M in the way you hope for, but because you feel an inner growth and strength. Because Db teaches you how to control and focus and be mindful of YOUR emotions. NOt others.

[JksD]

Somehow I seem to have missed a lot of the posts, especially your post about the mc.

Mc is not working. I think it's best to stop it.

Your wh seems to be feeling cornered and emotionally flooded. At this point, he has been saying he wants out repeatedly.


I agree with what has been posted. Stop the R and the M talks. Pull back and focus on yourself and the little ones now. I really think you need a break with all that's happening.

You are not a failure. Through your actions, you have ended the A, ousted the ow and got a fighting chance for your M. You have been consistent in your 180s by reigning in your anger and not letting your emotions guide your actions.

This is what I have noticed. Your wh reacted well when you've got a handle on your emotions. He gets scared when he senses you pulling away.


What does your db coach have to say about this?

[PsySara]

Sometimes I wish my "tone" could be heard when I post. My last post wasn't so much as a "poor pitiful me" post but more along the lines of, "Huh, well I've gotten off the path so time to re-evaluate what I am doing wrong. So I will try to address your advice and concerns individually. (older kids are bathing and WH is outside enjoying a campfire.)

Surfer,
Thank you for the thoughtful and well articulated post, lots of good advice. This was the first (and likely last) MC session we had. The counselor had suggested a book if WH wasn't receptive to MC, when I asked WH about this he actually jumped at MC. The fact is, WH isn't ready to piece (believe nothing they say, eh?) no matter his words. Since that disaster of a session I have become...numb? I feel okay, not heavy just kind of floating along. I slept like a baby last night for the first time in a long time.

Ginger,
My apologies for never addressing you individually before, I have not had much time recently to respond so I have been en masse responding. I have been too focused on WH in this process and thus failing at properly detaching. I've decided to let go and just work on me. I am hitting the mental and physical wall here so no I am going to just take care of myself.

Bluwave,
Thank you for your support, you're an inspiration to us all. Your endurance is amazing and gives me hope, not so much to save my marriage but that I will be able to come out of this okay regardless of my M.

SH,
I have combed over the last few months since WH has come home and realize I have really messed up with the detaching. I've followed his moods too closely and my moods end up reflecting his. This is a monumentally bad move as WH is still utterly lost and has no idea what he wants in life. I've already changed up the plan and have decided to focus on GAL instead of just thinking about GAL.

Sotto,
All in all I've been remarkably okay since the MC blow up. My sleep has improved and I've stopped pursuing. Frankly I am so exhausted that the thought of pursuing makes me want to sleep, lol. Weirdly enough WH and I are getting along fabulously, I just don't care anymore if we stay together or fall apart. It's like my give-a-crap meter just broke.

Vanilla,
Not ignoring your suggestions. As I just typed I've just stopped caring about saving my marriage. I know at this point if it doesn't end in reconciliation that I will be fine. This week I am doing a girl's night out (WH can babysit, ha!) going to schedule a hot stone massage, and I am watching mindless television after the kids go to sleep. How's that for self care? Haha!

Dory,
I've backslid into pursuing and my goodness, talk about backfiring. Something strange has happened in the last few days, I feel completely afloat. I've started feeling WH is a room mate whom I share responsibilities with (children, house keeping). Before I was going through the motions but now I just feel...not nothing...it's hard to express. I just feel like "Meh" when around him. IS this detachment? Apathy? FRankly I kinda don't care.

[PsySara]

Now for the update on the home front.

I went to work Friday (after a restless night) and buried myself in work. We've had a HUGE increase in patient load so it was easy to distract myself. I found myself cheerful and really enjoying my work. I managed to see and treat quite a few patients more than usual. I bought a bunch of chicken for the staff and we laughed and joked while chowing down.

I got home from work and wanted to take the kids bowling. I invited WH (thinking he would refuse) but he came. I took some awesome pics of the kids bowling and WH asked for me to forward them to him. We talked about just regular things. I didn't feel hopeful/anxious/fearful...I just felt like I was hanging out with a room mate or something. On the way home H thanked me for a great evening and I just "you're welcome." But I just didn't really or think anything after that.

Today I did the laundry, ironed, ate breakfast that WH cooked for me and the kids. WH spent his morning on the back porch sanding and painting while I did my thing inside. We had an appointment to look at house at 2 and did that. Both of us weren't really impressed with the place. Afterward we went craft shopping with the kids and went home. WH made a camp fire in the back yard and I picked up dinner. He asked if I felt like he was leaving me all alone (when he was outside at the fire) and I said nope, doing my thing. At one point I decided to warm byt he fire too and sat there enjoying the flames. WH asked what Iw as thinking and I answered honestly, "Nothing." He laughed and said, "Oh thank Allah."

I feel weirdly at peace. WH is doing a lot of future talk about us buying a house in a better area for the kids schooling, about things "we" will do. I am just like...what? I have started picturing my life without WH and I don't feel panic like I used to. I am just doing me. No touching, hugging and definitely no sex. I save that for someone who really loves me and treats me like I deserve. I am pretending to be single with a room mate and it has reframed things tremendously. Please pray my head stays in this lovely place, I am so relaxed right now.

[Bippy78]

I read somewhere that hate is not the opposite of love, "apathy" is. It is some kind of wonderful to not have that gripping paralyzing panicky pressure to "save my marriage" - I get that wonderful feeling of peace and relaxation.

But I would remind you that in many of our cases, that's what the WAS felt; and why we changed to try to save the marriage. Are you in danger of becoming the WAS yourself? More rhetorical questions than expecting hard answers, but certainly a perspective to consider...

[Surfer]

Sara

All soundying positive. This is a slow process. Inevitably bad relationship habits take years to form - and break. Both of you will have to conquer your habits one at a time - and it's tricky. It might be learning not to spew, learning to calm your anxieties etc. This is not a quick process so be patient with each other and be kind to yourself.

You seem to have stablaised. This is great. Try and keep this frame of mind. I don't know if you can but remembering how you got here - 'acting as if you are a room mate?' - will be useful no doubt to find your way back should you backslide.

Surfer.

[Vanilla]

Vanilla,
Not ignoring your suggestions.

It is my opinion Sara that you do not respond to posts about self care. And that includes others who post too, not just V. You are worth it that is why we post to you and keep posting.


As I just typed I've just stopped caring about saving my marriage.

Ceasing to care isn't about detachment, nor about still hanging on. Ceasing to care is willful and rebellious. When I was fostering kids used to say "well, I don't care" and "whatever". When actually they weren't fooling anyone they cared very much.

"Don't care" is being very attached and my thinking isn't about "not caring" for your M, it is about you caring for you. Frankly in my eyes you can stand for your M, for a new M for a long time. I hope you do get a new M, I really want that for you. I would like an invested caring H and one who wants in.

My thinking is irrespective of whether you care about your WH or your M (old or new) you care about you. And at this point I am not seeing that you do. I would want that for you above all else and without self love and compassion with extreme self care you get lost in the mix.

I would like you to have a plan for this self care, goals actions and health. Particularly your physical health.

I know at this point if it doesn't end in reconciliation that I will be fine.

This sentence alone tends in my view to show denial. Expressed in the negative and using the we seal word "fine". I went to this place of denial too, in my case as for many it isn't "fine", there is a grief process and it hurts to walk to the pain. I needed a great deal of help to get off the floor and truly it isn't fine.

It hurts, it depletes, it requires work and internal thought. Each person is different and of course their process is individual. The one thing I see in common, step one is to acknowledge reality, put a plan in place to take care of self.

Truly it isn't fine.

This week I am doing a girl's night out (WH can babysit, ha!) going to schedule a hot stone massage, and I am watching mindless television after the kids go to sleep. How's that for self care? Haha!

GAL is only part of self care and often part of LRT. TV is distraction mainly.

These things are activities, in many ways distractions and of course necessary. Like work GAL and chicken, it helps in parts of the process. If there is a process of self care, a really big process of self care at the core of that which you do.

Something which helps you face the pain, a plan which encourages you to attend to your physical and mental needs. A plan with connection and true support. A plan which includes physical care, health care, eliminate the virus in your body, discussions with friends and family. Medidating, mindfulness, IC, doctors appointments, nutritional it's with food plans, time for you, yoga, dancing, exercise. Massage maybe. Swimming. Plans for you, your life, your fins, your family, your business, your health, your business- all centred around you. All taking care of you, based on you as a precious person you are.

Positive, current, and involved.

Each of us is different and for instance Phoebe has her Taj Mahal chicken parlour, V went travelling in the US and the EE course, Zues has his pool ambition, Dorey refurbished her home.

All of this is part of self care package each of us put together for ourselves.

Sara, I read denial, petulance and poor care of self.

So there!

-------------------------------------

Sara, you are very precious.

V

[PsySara]

Bippy,
It's very possible that I am becoming a WAS, I can see how that would happen. So instead of making a hasty decision (file for divorce and/or kick WH out) I am just going to return to working on myself and leave WH to his own devices. In one year if he is still this stagnant then I think I will sever the marriage contract since the marriage itself was killed. Why one year? Because I think two years is plenty of time to see change. I can't raise my kids in a loveless and unauthentic marriage.

Surfer,
One of the things I've read over and over again ni self help and marriage saving books is to pay attention to your spouse's complaints and see if there is merit. I think WH's view that I have serious anger issues has merit. So I am going to work on how I express anger, at this time I still have to find reliable self soothing techniques. I need to do this so my kids are raised by a raging mother, they need to feel safe and stable. I've started reading about it and I have an IC session this week and this will be one of my goals.

Vanilla,
I think I am presenting myself wrong or something. I am not feeling rebellious or defiant, simply letting go of the rope finally. WH is still swinging and frankly, so am I. I had become so wrapped up in his reactions (and was becoming VERY reactive myself) that I was losing my way. My GAL has been lax and my self care has been crap. So I decided to lay a new foundation, I scheduled myself IC for my emotional and psychological healing and then started scheduling more relaxing and fun activities for myself. We all have our ways of self care, mine just tend to be more sedate than others, lol. I want to type more but the baby just woke and is yelling for food.

[Ginger1]

Sara,

No worries on the non-responses. I just hoped you were catching on to my messages.

I'll skip over the self-care, although V has made some excellent, excellent points.

You have been riding his roller coaster. Absolutely. You do need to get off immediately. That's what detaching is. Getting off their roller coaster and not having them control our emotions. Become in charge of your own.

I have a serious suggestion for you. Stop all the self-help, marriage saving related reading. Looking in ward is great, self-improvement is great, but all of that will burn you out. You haven't given yourself the chance at all to just look at you as an individual and someone who doesn't need to change so much to get her husband to recommit to the marriage. I do think IC is great. I went for a short time after bomb drop, then I recently went back in the past year and a half (like 8 years later) and it has been a godsend. But my therapist and I agree sometimes it's just healthy to stop and appreciate who we are right now.

I would highly suggest keeping your self help to your IC and the homework they give you, but stop the MWD videos and reading and research for a while (sorry, MWD) Even stop the coaching for a while (I'm really going to get in trouble). You are just so enmeshed in it now.

Take some time to stop, smell the roses, and really just be content with who you are right now. You might find many things you love about yourself. Embrace them!

[J5K]

Sara,

I am just catching up on your sitch.

Bippy,
It's very possible that I am becoming a WAS, I can see how that would happen. So instead of making a hasty decision (file for divorce and/or kick WH out) I am just going to return to working on myself and leave WH to his own devices. In one year if he is still this stagnant then I think I will sever the marriage contract since the marriage itself was killed. Why one year? Because I think two years is plenty of time to see change. I can't raise my kids in a loveless and unauthentic marriage.

It doesn't matter if you are becoming the WAS. Do what is right for you. As others have stated, you have done a great amount of homework in trying to save your M and an amazing job at DB. No matter how good the DB person is, the other S has to play a role in saving the M, whether it is a different M or not.

I feel like you and I have very similar situations with the fact that we have small children and work and I can relate to your need to fix things and the anger and frustration you feel when your S continues to not care about the changes you are making and work you are putting in. We don't want to let go.

One more year is a good goal. Who knows maybe YOU will decide sooner than a year but you will know when YOU want to drop the rope completely.

Surfer,
One of the things I've read over and over again ni self help and marriage saving books is to pay attention to your spouse's complaints and see if there is merit. I think WH's view that I have serious anger issues has merit. So I am going to work on how I express anger, at this time I still have to find reliable self soothing techniques. I need to do this so my kids are raised by a raging mother, they need to feel safe and stable. I've started reading about it and I have an IC session this week and this will be one of my goals.

I get this part also. I also do not want to be a raging father. That is why it is important to focus on you and pamper yourself. When you are happy your kids will be happy.

Vanilla,
I think I am presenting myself wrong or something. I am not feeling rebellious or defiant, simply letting go of the rope finally. WH is still swinging and frankly, so am I. I had become so wrapped up in his reactions (and was becoming VERY reactive myself) that I was losing my way. My GAL has been lax and my self care has been crap. So I decided to lay a new foundation, I scheduled myself IC for my emotional and psychological healing and then started scheduling more relaxing and fun activities for myself. We all have our ways of self care, mine just tend to be more sedate than others, lol. I want to type more but the baby just woke and is yelling for food.

Self care is more than just IC. You may still be searching for the perspective that will draw your H closer. I think I have been doing the same thing. Please do not take this the wrong way, your efforts are commendable and honorable. If the other half doesn't want it though, what can you do about it? Take care of you!

(((Sara)))

[Vanilla]

Sara

I will rest the self care issue for a short while whilst I reform my thoughts on a new post.

This post to you is about anger.

Your WH is saying to you that you are angry and that you have serious anger issues. This has merit in your eyes. And you wisH to take action.

Well, lovely one, he would say that wouldn't He!

You have plenty to be angry about, truly you do. Righteous anger is a great thing.

Go ahead get angry, get it out.

WH has every right to his view, and if you are angry be angry. Get good and white angry at the things he has done. Honey, don't reign it in, lay it outo, let it out.

Not in an uncontrolled red angry way, with blooded eyes and hammer in hand. But in a my man just diD me wrong way.

I wish I had that anger, it will move you forward, motivate you.

He is entitled to his view and in my view if he thinks you have no cause, he is delusional. He is lucky you didn't hit him over the head with a frying pan whilst poking his eyes out with a red hot poker. There are some who would.

Who says that your anger should be tamed? It is your issue to handle sure, get good and mad. Use that lovely anger to motivate you to move forward. Heck plow it into self care and moving to the pain too.

You can say, I am very angry with your behaviour right now and I think I have every reason. I am going to use my anger to motivate change for myself.

Bottling this is like keeping petrol near a fire, the store gets bigger.

Most of us work from one prime emotion with a secondary one. Mine is fear tinged with sadness. Yours is likely fear tinged with anger.

Please do not be afraid to be angry, use the energy to go for a run, lift weights, paint the garage, build a chicken taj mahal, build your buisess. Direct it, use it, lovely directive white anger.

You have no control over how he sees you, if all he can say is you get angry when you have cause, that his view. You have no control over it.

Let's say your WH stated that he had the mistaken view you have blue hair (Marge).

Clearly that's a delusion or he is gaslighting you.

So what do you say?

Honey I accept that you think I have blue hair, that's your right. I allow you to have your mistaken belief that I have blue hair and it's ok you think that way. I have no control over it.

He then tells the therapist "I don't want to stay with her because she has blue hair and that's why I cheat. Blame the ugly blue hair"

You go duh! He is delusional and that isn't the true reason, he wants to be wayward and blame it on me.

You look in the mirror and suddenly you say "you know in some lights my hair does look blue, maybe I should visit a hair dresser and get this blue tinge modified. Maybe I should look at my diet, perhaps I eat too many blueberries, or is it the blue icing on that birthday cake. I know it's dye from the pillows I bought."

Now suppose you are a brunette and replace blue with brown.

Yes WH I am a brunette and I like being one, or do you go die your hair blue?

This WH has behaved very wayward lying, cheating, gaslighting, dipping his nethers in the shallow end of the pond, no regard for the health of the mother of his children, leading you to think he wanto to change when he doesn't, wanting his cake and eating it. And now doesn't like you being angry? I bet he doesnt want you to use white anger to enforce boundaries for him. It's just further control, to pretzel your emotions, the emotionsame you are allowed to have, to feel and to use in any way you so choose to push yourself forward.

There are different sorts of anger, anger is best pure without revenge or malice. Directed forcing anger. Part of the Kubler Ross cycle and however brief inevitable. It's delicious use it to propel you to action however you so choose. It's a very great gift.

V

[Surfer]

Hey Sara,

Vanilla has a different take on this sort of stuff to me. But I really like reading her view points in particular about anger.

I think my primary emotions are happiness and fear. Perhaps that's when I read about anger it is alien to me. Your H might not identify with anger - IDK at all, just presuming.

I know this, my W would rage and rage. She did today (see thread), I could just see a monster. Saying and doing things that only a monster would say or do. That brought fear for me. "Who is this, what is this thing"? Totally had no idea. I handle it differently now.You see whilst my W still struggles occasionally with her Anger, I have learned to deal with it. It's an issue that you both need to deal with. The person with Anger needs to recognise triggers and change the 'habit' (and it is a habit), by replacing it with another way, and the spouse needs to be careful to avoid the triggers - but if the angry spouse is being unreasonable use validation and boundaries to protect themselves (and their children).

Just me thoughts. IDK if I am right. It's just what I have observed and how I have dealt with it so far.

The self care thing is important. Did you not use to run I seem to recall? This really helps with anger.

BTW, the 12 month thing. I love the goal setting but I am not sure it works that way. Trying to end the pain with a goal is a bit 'lofty' IMHO. You will be 'done' only when you are done. No clock will predict that point in time - if you ever reach it. My advice is don't consciously give up. Instead detach consciously. We all struggle with detachment the most - out of all the techniques. We all spin at times. You have been spinning. Focus on calming your mind and GAL for now. As Vanilla says, perhaps you need some self care - something to recharge you.

Surfer.

[Vanilla]

Surfer

Rage is Red Anger.

The purest emotion unhinged is white, so white anger, white happiness, white sadness.

So if

You are angry you are angry, then that's red, it's rage.

You are sad you are angry, then that's blue, it's self destruct generally inwards.

You are disgusted you are angry, then that's green, it's tantrum and mess.

You are happy you are angry, then that's yellow, it's directive and compulsive, self willed. Manic even.

Etc

----------------------------------

Anger can be outward focused, throw things, burn the house, kick the cat, determined, action orientated. Or inward focused, binging, compulsions, addictions........

It has a 'volume' button too. Gets turned up in the presence of substances, alcohol etc

Some like an audience with their anger, others go pound the trend mill.

----------------------------------

White anger is just the emotion and it can be observed. Like a sleeping snow leopard just observed. Then it can be channelled to great action.

Zues is the master at this, in his pool games he uses his anger to achieve.

---------------------------------

It's all self mastery.

Sounds like you have this one in the bag already Surfer.

V

[Surfer]

Thanks V.

I seem to have learned to control my anger. I don't often get angry, but when I do I show it. I used to let others get to me but now less so and certainly very, very rare for anyone to 'make' me angry.

Interesting stuff this though V - thanks.

Surfer.

[PsySara]

My apologies for the delayed responses, I've been looking at houses to buy (rent for now) and also buried in work.

Today I woke at 4 am with vomiting and diarrhea non-stop. I had to go to work so I could discharge some patients but then came home immediately afterward. WH took me to work and brought me home. I thanked him for this and he responded, "This is nothing, you took me in for my kidney stones and that was a much more difficult thing for you." He is talking about the fact that I took him to the ER 2 days after I found out about the affair. I stayed with him the whole time and even diagnosed him. (the docs were saying there was no kidney stone, I pulled up his CT scan and found a HUGE stone in his ureter, they were massively embarrassed) The girl's night out is not going to happen for me tonight as I am still VERY sick.

Otherwise I have been living with him as a roommate. No R or M talks, he sometimes temp checks asking me what I am thinking or feeling but I don't give much of a response, just "Nothing." or "I'm fine." I just don't have any energy left for him. My coach feels it's a good thing if I don't even argue if WH brings up his feelings or thoughts, just agree with them. I completely okay with that. If he says he was deeply in love with OW or whatever, just agree. I am so numb right now that will be easy.

The nightmares have returned and I usually wake around 4 am and can't get back to sleep. These are the times when the anger chokes me and I want to punch WH in the face. Interestingly enough when I get up and get ready for the day this feeling leaves, I go back to numbness. When we are spending time with the kids together I feel like I am looking at a neighbor or something, just kind of "meh." I am starting to picture a future without him and it's not causing the deep amount of pain as before.

I have an IC session this Thursday (if my stomach starts behaving) and will focus on healing myself and moving forward.

V,
I am re-reading your posts and trying to learn from them. My problem with anger is more about my actions when I am angry. I grew up in a violent household and my childhood memories are ones filled with fear and sadness. When I become very angry I tend to regress and start punching walls and stuff. I had refrained from that until the Affair happened and I have regressed considerably, I actually fractured my hand last year because of this. This is unacceptable, I need to be able to feel my anger without becoming violent. My children deserve MUCH better than this.

Surfer,
I used to run but now it's become extremely challenging to find the time. I will look at my schedule and try to move some things around because physical work outs are fantastic mood stabilizers. In the meantime I will be scheduling a massage to help with my neck pain.

[ForGump]

Ever tried martial arts?

[BluWave]

(((Sara))) I have noticed that you are very hard on yourself. It takes one to know one :-) I imagine this has served you well and behind it is the motivation that has led to your success. In the hard times tho, it must be torturous. So there is pain and thus the anger. On top of that you are hard on yourself for how you are handling it and stuck in a negative loop.

Your H has caused so much of this hurt. Perhaps instead of trying to control the anger, find outlets to let it out that make you feel good. Meaning, instead of DBing (which you have already mastered) think about how you express the anger that makes YOU feel good about it or proud, with zero consideration to what he will think. Can you do that? Maybe it's a new 180 for you?

I think the DB process and monitoring if it's working just adds more pressure to you and keeps him in control. Just my thoughts.

I can get fired up easliy and also express my anger in ways that I later regret. I am most proud when I can keep my poker face on, exit a situation, give myself time before responding, and then in a simple and matter of fact way tell the person how I feel in as few words as possible, and with little emotion in it. It's so hard for me to do, but when I can, I feel sooo good about myself. I try and remember that feeling of accomplishment.

Blu

[JksD]

Sara, I know the anger you're talking about. I come from a violent and angry background too. My experience has scarred me for life and there are times when I lose myself to the anger I so abhor. I dont punch walls but I do slap my palms or knuckles on the table or slam doors.

When I dont manifest my anger physically, I let it loose in cutting remarks. And always, after these red rages as V would call them, I regret my actions.

So I really do understand when you say you need to work on your anger. We're talking about the incredible hulk kind of rage. The kind that makes you lose control.

Funny thing is, professionally, I have learnt to manage my anger so they seldom become red rages. Personally, I am so hooked into the red rages that I can go from 0 to 100% steaming hot in seconds.

The best that I can come up with is that professionally, I am more aware of my emotions. I monitor and recognise my emotions. The moment I recognise my symptoms of anger, or the triggers, I know that I am going to get angry soon. It seems that this extra step of awareness and acknowledgement gives me that extra time between the emotion and a knee-jerk reaction.

I must remember to do the same in my personal life.

What works for you professionally? You can probably use the same skills in your personal life.

[JksD]

Btw, about the houses. Are you in a hurry to buy or rent one?

I am looking at the worst- case scenario but how would it affect you financially if your h bailed on the M?

[Vanilla]

Sara

I am the most peaceful person, with very little anger, it isn't my go too.

This stuff you are experiencing will try a saint, and even V had her shadow part called screaming banshee.

Know this it is REACTIVE anger and SITUATIONAL anger. In the way you describe it is abuse and it can stop.

There is quite a bit on the abuse thread about this reaction.

There are some discussions on other threads about this, I will link for you separately. Some thoughts on flooding too.

I believe the origin of the anger you feel is in childhood and like Dorey it is brave of you to open up about this, it is your FOO, at some point, I suggest digging deep to examine it, for this a counsellor can help one who specialises in childhood trauma.

Some FOO is very readily healed, it is never ever the childs fault or responsibility. Not ever, not once, for the behaviour of the adults around them. Children are never to blame for it, the anger in the childs life (your childhood) correctly belongs to others and can be given back where it belongs. That lonely, hurt, angry and thwarted child needs TLC and love and hugs and soothing and protecting. I have no doubt whatsoever that sadness and frustration of a violent and hostile childhood home creates trauma. Some of that trauma is like being in a war zone, children have no control and it's unfair and damaging. Truly truly awful to grow up in that way. I could go really hurt the parents and adults who allowed that to happen to the precious little bundle called Sara.

These traumas are called ACES (Adverse Childood Experiences) and the more you have in childhood then the worse the trauma and health outcome (There is a test you can do on ACES- Google ACES high). Let me tell you that the predisposition is in my opinion not your fault. Not ever, not once and you have been very sorely tested in your M. Really and truly.

You say it has to stop then it can be.

Sara, let me once again discuss extreme care with you, looking after you and that wonderful little Sara who is within you who had such a tough time when she was young. She and you need extra special care, extra things to build you up and to move you to healing.

I am going to suggest:

This will mean calling on your caring support team, good safe friends who can be there during your medical treatment for the virus.

An uber intensive nutritional plan, food high in nutrition (I chose the Eat Glow Nourish method), and there are lots out there to choose from, supplements, juices etc. Blood tests for nutritional numbers, hormonal numbers and for parasites.

Gentle exercise and perhaps massage, pampering, hair, skin, nails, sauna etc. Whatever it is that appeals.

Rest and great sleep, help on that if needs be, a peaceful bed time, music, candles, new bed linen. Even a few nights away with friends and a health farm. Whatever you need.

Some quality healing time with family and friends.

This every day and intensive.

------------------------------

Sweet Sara wrap yourself in your own love, hold yourself very dear and let your higher power heal you and lovely little Sara within you.

Please understand that once that self love and self care starts to flow into your spirit that anger will be white. I think your red anger arises because you feel angry you are angry. It hurts to be angry and that anger and frustration you turn against the wall or door injuring yourself. It's ok to direct that anger against those who in your childhood did not protect you, you as an adult can protect you.

What would you say to those unfeeling adults who directed their anger towards a child? An innocent child with no way of holding her own against brutality. What would you do? You would stop that awfulness, you would tell that wonderful gift of Sara, these adults will never do that to you again. You would say I can and will protect you little Sara and once again over and over until you know it. You would look at that child with love and joy to say Little Sara despite all, you are an adult, a success, with a career, and delightful children of your own. Little Sara you were strong and have stopped this awful abuse from moving to another generation, it was hard, and you protected and loved your children in all the ways that were denied you as a child.

Little Sara you became a wonderful mother and tender and kind to your children and you have compassion for yourself. You learned, you grew and you became the one.

That is what I see in you.

Big big hugs

V

[Vanilla]

little Vanilla and FOO

Abuse resources Zelda and Vanilla plus

Flooding


As promised

V

[PsySara]

ForGump,
Haven't tried martial arts, I was thinking more along the lines of running or calisthenics? A way to get an endorphin/natural antidepressant flowing.

BluWave,
I am trying to find a way to harness my anger into a constructive outlet. Instead of letting it control me and flailing out, causing destruction; I ned to let it flow through me and then use it as a directive force. I am hard on myself because my kids deserve the best mom, a raging out of control woman is not that mom. Lately I've been using it to remind me not to pursue, not to chase, not to REACT every time he fails to be a husband to me. I let it put a brick in the wall to my detachment. I've become clincal and aloof towards him, I have started viewing him as an unstable patient that needs to be understood but not necessarily trusted as far as the truth is concerned.

Dory,
I am being very careful to only purchase a house that I can support on my own income if necessary. At this time I am planning for the worst (and kind of neutral about hoping for the best lol). WH wavers back and forth daily on wanting this house or that, I've just steadily looked for some specifics and been honing down the selection with those specifications in mind. Most importantly I've focused on the local schools and which areas provide the top education. It's funny you mention the ways to manage anger in a business setting, that's exactly what I've been doing lately. It can be tricky when you're in your own home and thus your "safe space" is no longer safe.

Vanilla,
You're spot-on about the reactive nature of my anger, that's what I've been trying to deal with it. Anger is an emotion but reaction is a behavior. My behavior needs to change, for me and for my children. Before the affair I was a master at controlling my reactivity, after the affair was uncovered I lost control, utterly. My children heard me scream, rage, curse, they saw me sit on the floor (heavily pregnant) and sob uncontrollably. At one point my daughter hugged me repeatedly asking me what was wrong. I am so horrified that she was seeing her mom fall apart. She looked so confused and hurt. The one thing I can be...well not proud of but at least less ashamed, when I punched walls and broke things I was alone.

Thank you all so much for your words of wisdom and compassion. This WAS/WH thing can really play a number on your self confidence and identity. It has made me question my self worth, my ability to really "see" people as they are. I never, in a million years, thought I would be in a relationship with infidelity and I NEVER thought I would be fighting to rebuild a marriage with someone who betrayed me so horribly. Lately I've decided that I have to let go of the end result. If we divorce then we divorce. I will do everything in my power to mitigate the damage to my children and be their rock. But I can no longer wait for WH to get a clue, I will move forward and if he still stands in the same spot I may have to cut the rope and move on completely.

[ForGump]

Martial arts would let you punch someone (sparring partner) or a bag instead of a wall...

Does your WH explain what his thinking is about a new house? Most normal people would not think of buying a house together with a spouse you want to divorce.

[Vanilla]

Forgump

Waywards have reasons with scrambled eggs for brains, often it's a happy ever after thing

We had a poster here whose husband 'went Alaskan' and other odd behaviour.

Another poster whose WH persuaded her to sell up and join him in a foreign country with 2 children. She uprooted herself and moved only to find the house in the foreign country was an illusion and he had set up with OW with the proceeds of the sale of the house.

Peeps whose waywards have triggered them and then had them arrested or an OPP, they are excluded from the new house.

For Sara, I think this is a very dangerous time, waywards and abusers know when the target has let go and it can be dangerous.

Extreme care and safety needed Sara, put those buttons out of reach of WH. No triggering, it's a tough time.

I am minded of Ancaire and Mustardseed and I regret I did not caution them well enough.

I would rather my cautions went to air than not expressed.

Please stay calm, breathe, white anger and no rash decisions Sara. Any sign of you being triggered get yourself to safety and please be sure to record anything WH says that is intended to be inflammatory.

Beware Greeks bearing gifts (a reference to The Helen of Troy Horse) and offers of new houses etc. Future faking dreams which are transitory.

Watch out when actions don't match words too.

Super careful please.

V

[ForGump]

Good point. My W recently hinted at wanting some big-ticket home improvement done and I thought, What???

Anyway, my guess is that Sara's WH enjoys buying expensive things (cars, sailboats), so for him it's about the thrill of buying a big house, not about what it means for Sara and the kids.

[PsySara]

I'll address some things before journaling,

I have qualified for a home loan on my own credit score and income. If a house is bought then it will be in my name only and will be only if I can afford the mortgage by myself. I could get a much more expensive house if WH's income were added but I am not going there. I am planning my future and big purchases as if I were already single.

Today's events:
I had my procedure, it was uncomfortable and emotionally draining but it's over, the results will be in around 10-14 days. I went to my IC today and she feels WH has narcissistic personality disorder. She has assessed him alone as well as when he came to MC the other day. As a clinician I know what a dire diagnosis this is and asked her frankly if there was any hope, she said she dug very deep on WH but could find nothing. He has absolutely no empathy towards others and frames every experience from his own POV without being able to "put himself in other's shoes." This means his ability to work on himself and fix what's wrong is...never going to happen.

WH was sending texts all day long asking how I was doing, if I needed to talk, etc., He came home and I asked him to take over the kids for the evening. Again he asked if I needed to talk and I just dodged the question. I don't feel he is asking because he truly wants to support or comfort me, he just wants to assuage his own guilt and then sleep like a baby. Right now he has taken the kids out for dinner and I am just relaxing on the couch. I am physically and emotionally wrung out today. Tomorrow I will rise again but for now I am not going to do anything beyond breathe in and breathe out.

[JksD]

(((Sara)))

You need your rest and extreme self-care. Good to hear that you thought about the financial/ legal implications of buying a house now. I won't belabour the point then.

Wrt to the narcissist diagnosis of your H. A few qns:
1. How qualified is the IC? A psychologist?
2. Is it the same Gottman MC who tried to get you to give up?
3. Did your H display any of these traits while you were dating or before BD?

I am asking all these questions because people who engage in affairs will exhibit narcissistic traits to differing extents.


I am not a psychologist but I will be more inclined to believe the results if the assessment was done prior BD or M.

You have a very strong character. It shows even when online. I just doubt that a real narcissist will pick a strong character like you who doesn't take any bs.

But this is just my interpretation.

File this observation away. If you don't feel like making a decision yet, you dont have to

[ForGump]

As w/ JksD, I'd have more confidence in the NPD diagnosis if it was based on a longer term relationship with a therapist, and preferably one who specializes in it.

I think narcissistic people can often see how other people feel, they just don't place any value in it, unless there was something in it for them. And that "something" can be them feeling good about themselves. In other words they will often do you favors if it makes them feel good about themselves -- but the motivation is rooted in a narcissism, not putting someone else's interest first.

Anyway, reading your post made me crave a pint of Ben & Jerry's. Sounds like heck of a day....

[Surfer]

Sara

Wow. Your post about Anger......

You are describing my W. Thank you for sharing this. Do you apologise for this rage or do you feel justified. Do you always recognise it? What makes you recognise it. You clearly feel you have something to work on with this. What made you recognise this and are you really going to do the work. As it is tempting to say 'oh I'll sort it out' and not fully commit.

I once punched a wall and broke my hand! I had locked myself out of my room at university. I didn't do that again! As I have had to deal with my W's rages I have learned to control anger in me very well. I struggle with sadness and attachment at times but I am improving and will get to the points not that I feel completely in corntrol at all times. So I know we can change. It is tricky but I am sure you will get there.

Surfer

[Surfer]

Sara

Glad you have procedure done. Horrible that you had to go through this : (

Okay, not idea with the IC diagnosis. It may be incorrect however. Have you ever seen him empathise? I bet you have many times. Try not to get down about it. It may. Be that he has elevated pointers - so what. Many that score high on the psychopath scale are actually pretty normally functioning people - often high achievers. Yes, no Mother Terrasa - but not 'bad' people. They are just different. If you both know he finds it hard to empathise, it might be good to talk about. Lots
Of men are like this BTW. I am sure you have watched 'it's not about the nail'. Perhaps show it to you H if the time is right?

Keep that chin up.

Surfer.

[Vanilla]

A number of things.

Diagnosing NPD is difficult and actually it doesn't matter if you have a label or no. The behaviour Sara is abusive and the way he has been about the STD is all about him. I see no remorse for this physical assault on you.

If he is NPD then he has no conscience so he will be asking you how you are not to assauge his guilt but out of pleasure. He has control and you having this procedure and still being there is evidence of his control. Just saying.

When I went for my STD test the Giggalo said 'that's part of being in an R'. No Giggalo, it's evidence that you are wayward and fishing in the shallow end of the swamp. If you have no regard for yourself then why would you have any regard for my health?

Frankly if you read my thread on it, that was a big spell break moment for me.

An observation again from me, Sara by being there at home after the proceedure and asking WH to take care of the kids, pretty please is minimising. I think you may be trying to make a point with WH. To see if he is guilty and is penitent. It's clear it's all BAU for him and he has done the minimum 'do you want to talk'.

This isn't self care sweetheart. Because this isn't BAU.

Just another bump into the road?

V

[Vanilla]

V teStedham

The moment of spell break V lets go

V

[Vanilla]

That should read V is tested!

V

[J5K]

Sara,

You are such a strong individual. I wish I had something to add to help your sitch. I think you are on the right path.

The wayward has no compassion or emotion for others close to them. Wrt to narcissism, your WH definitely has tendencies that swing towards NPD. The label means nothing though. They put themselves first. Continue to take care of yourself.


(((Sara)))

[PsySara]

1. How qualified is the IC? A psychologist?

She is a licensed clinical psycholigst who is certified in family and marriage counseling, she has national Gottman certification and she has a Ph.D. I did extensive vetting before choosing her.

2. Is it the same Gottman MC who tried to get you to give up?

Yes

3. Did your H display any of these traits while you were dating or before BD?

...no? I look back and see a lot of cluelessness, eventually he would realize how selfish something he did was, he would change his behavior. He's always been very rigid inside his own head but honestly I felt he behaved more like someone with Asperger's. If you told him in very concrete ways ("When you did this I felt like this") He would "get it." But now I am doubting my own ability to see the forest or even the trees with regards to WH. His personality is so cold and just...mean now. HE has no remorse or empathy for the pain he has wrought. He always goes back to my "short comings" when we discuss how much the affair hurt me.


ForGump:
Like I said with Dory, WH was a bit clueless unless I spelled it out in clear, concrete terms when he did something that hurt me. But I kind of felt he might be lightly on the Autism spectrum. Now I have no idea.

Surfer,
I was always able to control my anger in the past once I married WH. But there was something about the affair that just...broke me. Now this rage sticks in my throat, in my chest. It suffocates me and colors my days and nights, it steals my joy. The fact that WH just appears so utterly apathetic to the destruction he's wrought. The injustice that he just sleeps with some wh0re and then gets to abandon his wife and kids, I see red. I have apologized for losing my temper but most of the time WH just scoffs and tells me that my apology means nothing, that it's in my nature to be angry. And it isn't, I'm not comfortable in my own skin right now, this anger burns me from the inside out. I'll watch that "It's not about the nail."

Vanilla,

An observation again from me, Sara by being there at home after the proceedure and asking WH to take care of the kids, pretty please is minimising

I asked WH to watch the kids because I had NO energy left. I was completely empty and exhausted. If he didn't watch the kids I am not sure what I would have done, called a relative or something? I just didn't have it in me to boot strap my way through it. Today I talked to a trusted colleague who is married to a WH. HE cheated on her when their son was 2 years old, she stayed and tried and tried to reconcile but he would relapse and cheat again and again. She says she stopped caring and that's when the anger went a way. She is filing for divorce this summer and their son is 13. She told me if she were in my place she would simply file and call it a day. She feels like she has wasted the last 10 years of her life waiting on her WH to fix himself but he never has. I will definitely read your threads this weekend, thank you Vanilla.

JimKao,
I am trying to decide if NPD is really his "label" or if it's simply the result of being wayward? Chicken or egg, you know?

I made it through the work day and came home, bought pizza for delivery for the kids and now just letting my hair down. Weird thoughts have been going through my head, like taking off my hijab permanently. Part of me feels I was doing it as a respect towards my husband, another part of me likes controlling who can and cannot see my more attractive features. I don't know, I think I am kind of spinning but without much emotion. Apathetic spinning? Burn out? This coming week I am going to try and schedule a day for a massage or something.

[Vanilla]

Sara

Someone else sitch isn't yours ok, although there can be parallels.

And yes, a relative or friend for the kids whilst you take extreme care of you. This will take its toll on you, inevitable. Living on adrenalin isn't great for the body, it creates trauma and living that way is detrimental to mind, body and spirit.

At this point the one I am most concerned for is you Sara. And your health and wellbeing.

Much more than anything else. This virus in your body will use reserves.

This is an important time for you, a window of care for yourself.

Hugs

V

[PsySara]

Thank you Vanilla, your insight is always welcome and helpful.

I spent the weekend enjoying the sunshine and today took the kids to lunch and a park for 2 hours. They found some other children around their age and ran until they dropped. On the drive home all three of them were sleeping in their car seats, it was hysterical. They just had dinner and I am taking it easy while the baby plays with his toys and DD5 and DS4 are playing "cooking." WH is on call so he will not be off until 7 pm. I am just enjoying the evening in peace and quiet. Soon I will get them bathed and ready for bed and everything set for tomorrow.

The realtor called and it looks like we found the house and the price I wanted. We are going to be able to get the house for well below it's value as they market is cold and the seller is HUGELY motivated to get the house off the market. Te schools are some of the top rated in the nation and they are public. This will be a big savings as I was planning to send them to a very expensive private school but that may not be necessary.

Things between WH and I are cordial. Yesterday I was playing with the kids and he was watching me. HE asked me very softly, "Can I hug you?" I was a bit surprised as he has never been the one to approach me for physical affection. I said, "Sure." He held me very tightly and I backed away after a few seconds and smiled at him. Before I would have felt excited and hopeful but at the moment I just felt neutral. That's my weekend update.

[ForGump]

We found the house ... We are going to be able to get the house...

We, as in ... you and your WH? Are you sure it's a good time to buy a house together? Doesn't it set you up for possible complications?

[PsySara]

We found the house ... We are going to be able to get the house...

We, as in ... you and your WH? Are you sure it's a good time to buy a house together? Doesn't it set you up for possible complications?

The house will be in my name only and I have budgeted it with the thought of only my income. (just in case) The fact of the matter is I am paying money to rent a house and it's just tossing away more money than I would be paying for a mortgage. Plus this rental has turned into a comedy of errors, weekly something else breaks and the realtors send out a plumber/carpenter/maintenance worker. The house I have my eye on is up to date in everything, the public schools are some of the top rated in the nation and the area is very nice. This is part of my "moving forward" things. In the past my DB coach said to live life as if WH is in a coma on life support, basically decide as if I have no one else.

Things are in a holding pattern, WH and I are cordial, discuss only the children and keep things impersonal, like we're neighbors or something. I am okay with that as I have only the strength to take care of myself and the kids. I continue this weird non-feeling around him, it's like living with a roommate I don't know very well.

We are going to WDW this weekend for DD5 and DS4 birthday. (belated for DS and early for DD) I bought them those silly toys called Hatchimals. (DD5 has been asking for over 3 months and I got them when they were "only" $60) My cousin and his partner will be coming too and I think it will be an absolutely great time for the kids. I am excited and look forward to building new memories and watching the kid's faces light up.

[Vanilla]

The movery seems sound to me Sara and puts you in control of your destiny.

Has the L said what WH entitlement to the house will be? I suggest you check if being legally S would cut his entitlement. Is it possible for the house to be in trust so WH has no share in it?

Or can WH assign his rights?

Just saying.

I love your weekend plans.

V

[JksD]

Agree with V. Your plans sound good, Sara. Just make sure like what V said that your wh has no legal right over the house.

[SH_]

Please speak with legal counsel as V mentions...most states have laws that anything purchased or earned during marriage is community property.
If this is the case it would not matter that it is in your name...he could still be entitled to half of it.

Please be sure you protect yourself.

[ForGump]

The best case scenario is that your WH simply does not claim any rights to the house.

More middle of the road scenario is that whatever equity there is in the house (probably just the down payment, since you're just buying it now), you have to find a way to pay off 50% of that to your WH.

Worst case, your WH doesn't want to be bought out, he wants to keep the house; and you have to battle over it.

[Sotto]

Hmm, yes I agree with V and understand how to protect your own interests before you commit to purchase. My understanding would be the new house would become a further marital asset - ie: in consideration to be split - if you guys don't reconcile.

Whatever you do, don't rely on a gentlemans agreement. Get advice - from your own L - and have things clearly specified. Can I ask? If you knew you were never going to reconcile, would you buy this house?

Good luck with whatever you decide xx

[PsySara]

I would be buying this house regardless of reconciliation versus divorce. I've been very careful to protect myself financially speaking and the paperwork is reflecting that. I've also been very cautious and only purchased a house I could afford if I end up living without financial support from WH should divorce occur. I do understand people saying to wait but then how long? Do I rent for 1-3 years because I am afraid WH will walk away? I have to live my life in the now. IF WH wanted to be spiteful there still is the option to take it to court and challenge the paperwork and get the assets split but in the end I can't live my life in fear.

On the daily situation, WH is starting to drift back to me again. I continue to have this detached feeling. But it's like I am looking at a stranger, I want the H I married back, not this stranger who still can't decide what he wants. I did decide to extend myself past my comfort zone today, I asked WH for a motorcycle ride. I thought his eyes would pop out of his head. I have always been fearful of motorcycles, I've seen some horrible deaths in the ER after a motorcyclist was in an accident. (physicians call them Murdercycles or Organ donors) But lately I've been wanting to try it out and see how I feel. So WH got on his motorcycle and showed me where to put my feet and how to sit and away we went. I really liked it! Afterward we went by the shop and I found a pink leather jacket that was 40% off and WH bought it for me. I was stoked, I needed to replace my leather jacket and now I have this awesome one that looks cool. WH seemed confused, he kept looking at me while I preened in the shop looking at my new threads. While I sympathize with his turmoil I didn't feel dragged down like I used to. I even started seeing if there was a motorcycle small enough for me, lol! (I am 5'1 and 115 lbs so unless it's a kid's bike it's not happening, haha!) Meanwhile sometimes WH reaches out to touch me but then afterward seems very confused. Yesterday I was laughing hysterically while telling a funny story from work and he was very pensive then said, "I haven't seen your smile in a long time, you should smile and laugh more, your beauty really shines." I thanked him and then continued the funny story which made him belly laugh.

Meanwhile I still have these waves of pain and rage (usually when alone and thinking about his affair) that hit me when I least expect it. I read BluWave's most recent post and have decided to just let these waves wash over me and accept it's part of the grieving and healing process. I continue to see an IC and have told her my goals of not letting the rage consume me but to make it directive and constructive. I don't want to live a bitter and wasted life. This weekend I am taking the family to WDW and have a blast. I've invited my cousin and his partner as well, I think it will be time well spent.

[ForGump]

What was the most recent advice from the DB counselors?

[DonH]

I thought Donorcycle was the common term. At least as a paramedic for nearly 25 years it's the one I heard the most.

[Surfer]

Sara,

I

haven't seen your smile in a long time, you should smile and laugh more, your beauty really shines.

I have learned to understand my feelings so much more. You WH is telling you what I have learned. The curve of a smile is the most attractive part of any partner. You can only make this curve when you really feel this (forget Acting As If). Do this more, it is so attractive.

But....,,you must detach more, by not caring so much (oddly - perverse I know).

Loving the update - low expectations my little 5'1" firehouse.

Surfer.

[JksD]

Sara, sounding strong.

Keep on keeping on.

[PsySara]

...and then I fumble the ball.

Had a lovely holiday at WDW. WH was happy and thankful and on the way home we started talking. I told him I am thinking of removing my hijab. Eventually the conversation spiraled into the affair and he again is back to telling me to file for divorce, that he is remorseless and I just need to realize it. He said he has no intention of doing the things I need to heal from his affair and he does not want me anymore.

And I think I am done folks. He even said I could have the kids and he would just...leave. I may take him up on that, he may be more of a toxic person in their lives than out of it. Basically he sacrificed their future and happiness when he stepped out of our marriage. He chose to follow his libido and base desires over turning toward our marriage and working on it. He again went into a rant about how I wasn't making him happy before the affair and that's why he found someone else.

I stopped even trying to argue. I told him that was fine, I could take care of the kids alone, I had already proven that to myself. I can give them the support, consistency and stability children need, he cannot. I can financially support them alone without it being tight. I told him he is welcome to walk away, I told him he was free to spend his money on bikes, cars, whatever. I told him he was not the man I thought he was and I needed to take care of myself and my children. When we got home I unpacked and then took the kids swimming. (I had promised my DD to swim today) When I got home WH was gone and I didn't even care. I fed and bathed the kids, laid their clothes out for school tomorrow and now I am taking a few minutes to relax. I will continue to take care of myself and move forward.

[J5K]

(((Sara)))

You did not fumble anything. We LBS' are too hard on ourselves. It is a shame that the walk away spouse rarely has remorse for their actions.

They continue to project on us because they know we are kind and good hearted people that are fighting for their M.

Stick with your plan and take care of yourself and the kids.

If I may, how did the conversation spiral into the affair if everyone was happy?

I hope you find some peace tonight.

((((Sara))))

[100383]

Hugs, Sara. I admire your strength and will. Given your many successes in life, you'll prevail. You'll come out of this stronger and better. And your children will have a great model for integrity and perseverance.

Related to what Jim asked, how did such a great day turn into talk of D? Did your mentioning removing your hijab have anything to do with it? And if I may, why would you want to stop wearing it?

I'm new here, so I have no answers. Just questions and I feel for you and have followed your story.

[ForGump]

You didn't fumble. We're all going through excruciatingly painful stuff, and nobody can be perfect. We're all human. Don't focus on the particulars -- look at the big picture. The big picture is you've done so much. If your WH gave it 1/10 of the heart you've put into this, you would not be here.

He even said I could have the kids and he would just...leave.

How the F could he say that. They are not furniture. They are his children.

[PsySara]

I am trying to remember how the conversation turned sour and I think it's when WH started telling me why he chose OW (I mentioned he chose someone who wasn't Muslim, didn't cover and drank alcohol). He started telling me how she was affectionate, appreciative and some other stuff. I told him I felt taken for granted, that I felt all the things I did for him were unnoticed and held to an unfair standard. (How can you compare the availability of a mother of three to a single 21 year old?) He then started saying he was a great husband to me (before the affair) and how I was basically never good. I can't remember the specifics but that was the overall theme. He said I made all these demands once I found out about the affair; I said no contact and cut all ties with OW, read How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, and MCing) He said he would never show me remorse because he is not motivated.

HE said I needed to really think about why I would stay with someone who cheated and then refused to do what I needed to trust and heal. He said I should lookk for a lawyer when I get back. I kind of sat there stunned and then quietly said he was right. That two MCers had told me he was a lost cause and had dx'd him as narcissistic personality disorder. I told him that I felt he may be too toxic to keep around me and the kids. He blurted out that I could have the kids. I stared at him and then told him I hated him for what he had done, I hated that he could do what he did to me while pregnant and knowing that it would destroy the kids future. He had absolutely no expression. He did agree with me and said he felt nothing for me, that he was done.

The funny thing? I never yelled or cursed, I just quietly agreed.

WH eventually came home last night and slept in the spare room. He was slamming drawers and never said a word to me. I think I will file for divorce once the house is closed on. I will seek sole custody and won't even seek child support. I will start looking around for a good child therapist so I can get them help while they process this. What can I say? I poured my heart and soul into this and WH is the same person he was the day he cheated on me. He can only focus on his pain and his needs, no one else matters to him but himself. I can't let my children grow up with that.

[SH_]

Sara...please do not make the decisions of the details of a D in your current state of mind...
Not without sound legal counsel from a source not emotionally tied to your situation.
As with an IC, seek one that is aligned with your values and focused on solutions for you...it may take some research, but future Sara will thank you for this...
Please let the lawyer counsel you on child support...purchase of house ...etc.

You sound much like my friend who divorced over 14 years ago...he gave up everything ...and when his emotional state cleared he realized he was going to pay for a very long time.

The thoughts you share here of decisions have long term consequences and what you state goes against much of the legal, non emotional advice out there about D proceedings...
D is just a business transaction...do not be hasty to make decisions based on the short term and emotions...see big picture, set emotions to side and listen to legal counsel...second opinions of legal advisors are good as well.

I do hope you can hear what I am saying and not look to confirm your posted thoughts as ones you have determined to be best...D decisions are not well served when on emotional roller coaster...please heed advice here from those before you in the journey...no need to "fumble" this and realize it down the road.

Goal is not to get all that you can from him, simply to provide what is legally right for present Sara and kids, as well as for future Sara and kids.

Your sharing of your emotional state has swung from one extreme to the other...please ensure care of Sara so that the cooler head prevails.
Hint, cooler head is not the head devoid of emotions...
But in a balanced state of emotions.

(((((Sara)))))

[Vanilla]

Sara

Come sit by V in her lounge in front of the fire with a cup of hot chocolate and some snacks and let's chat.

Nothing, nothing your WH has said is in any way surprising or unusual, its out of the selfish jerk play book. It hurts to hear, until you do this WH will escalate until you hear him.

His choices, his decisions and nothing, nothing to do with you. Nothing you ave done, nothing on your qualities, lack of love or because you buy the wrong pasta. Nada zilch.

All a self serving entitled Wassock with scrambled eggs for brains who has little regard for his faithful W and his beautiful precious children. That is him.

You have you and your children to care for. Their future and yours will be determined by your next actions and choices. The next three months are crucial in your future, their college funds etc.

Please do not let emotions get in the way, sweetheart know your rights and the rights for your children. You need an L, go find one and know and understand what you need.

I get it, you are angry, upset and hurting.

Things said can never be unsaid and there is no going back from this at all in your eyes.

I am glad you are angry, be white angry.

Now sit with V and have some Christmas goodies, cool down and tell me your solid white angry action plan.

Let's take care of you and let you rest a while until the campaign is planned.

V

[Sotto]

Sara, I'm sorry all that was said. But I still think you are climbing onto his rollercoaster ride. You had some positive interactions last weekend and he said some nice things.

Then, you get into a R talk, which was never going to go well. And he said all the kinds of horrible things that (cornered) WAS say and things took a nose dive.

Rather than react with filing for D, why don't you take some steps to remove yourself from (his) drama - emotionally, physically or both.

You don't sound to be in a good place to be making a decision about D, but do take steps towards further distance and detachment. Truly, these convos are not doing any good at all.

Also, I do want to say - if he wants a D and wants out of the R - that's up to him. But he can put in all the effort towards that if so. I wonder if he says some of these things to goad you into doing the job he doesn't really want to do?

Truly - he will do what he will do, but you don't have to be on the bumpy ride with him.

Xx

[PsySara]

I don't know guys, I just want this pain to end. How long can you be in a marriage where the other person treats you like sh*t? He is acting like the victim here, as if I was the one who cheated and should just beg and plead for him to stay. Part of me just wants this to be over. I look at my children and feel overwhelming guilt that I chose this man to be their father. This unbelievably selfish and immature @sshole.

So I just piled on mistakes today. I broke a HUGE DBing rule and I don't even know why. I went to his job and texted him I was in the lobby and just wanted to stop by. Of course this had the opposite effect I desired, he texted back for me to go home and rest, he'd see me tonight. This is like the utter opposite of detaching, no? I wish I had never met him, I wish I had never carried his children. Now I am stuck with this remorseless cheater who feels zero remorse or accountability for his actions. For some reason my heart feels shattered, it's like I am back at square one. How do you teach your heart to stop feeling? How do I view this man, the father of my children (the person I thought, erroneously, was my soulmate) with no feeling? Why can't I just walk away and tell him to go to hell? Why do I spin? I used to be so centered, so whole, now I feel like a shadow of myself. I keep trying to find myself but I keep falling on my face.

Today I have felt that out-of-control rage followed by heartbreak...then the rage bubbles up again. I want a husband who I can trust and love, not this impostor.

[Vanilla]

Sweetheart of course he is the victim in his own eyes, or he is faking it, or he knows or its deliberate or he really cares or he is infested with an alien

WH has decided his M is over, you have decided its not

The reality is both are true

It is as it is and yes this is referred to as shattering that is really a term for this type of destruction and you can't change it

What matters is you and your children

The only true way through this abuse is by going NC immediately. I wish I could tell you how to walk away and go tell him to use implements where the Sun don't shine.

I don't know, all I can tell you is that which works for me and that is NC, completely totally and exclusively pitch black NC.

Sara please take care of you and your health. It is trauma as it has been going on so long and its a sort of addiction, Stockholm Syndrome. Trauma Bonding, there will be time to discover why you find your WH so addictive.

It's tough to accept that WH isn't an imposter that the WH you knew is the imposter. Today this WH is the real one, and you have seen the truth, heard the truth and are angry at it.

Please find some self care, put you first.

I will keep checking in Sara, please post as much as you need.

It's the way it is and all you feel and think is absolutely natural and normal for the process.

Big hugs

V

[PsySara]

How do you go NC when he lives in the same home? When he pays for the children's tuition? This very minute he is home and playing with the kids. He brought home dinner for me and the kids. WTF?!

[J5K]

Sara,

I sense that you feel like you are ready to drop the rope. I get it, it took me a year to come to terms with XW and that I am probably better off at this stage in my life.

As others have said, before you make a decision from emotions, distance yourself. It is hard with as young as your children are, I get it, we are living similar lives. Give yourself a few days and see how you feel then.

I sense that you are still trying to figure out the "fix" to make WH come back to you. TBH, the LBS does not have that power, that is up to the WAS.

I know this is probably against DB, but I am saying it anyway, talk to an L, know your rights, who cares if you have to do the work. The WAS will always blame the LBS.

If you think the right thing to do in order to ensure you are no longer on the emotional rollercoaster and you want to buy the house, buy it and move in with the kids. Do not let WH in YOUR home and let him figure his sh*t out.

I sense your heart is still torn because your H justifies himself with his own logic that does not align with yours.

Find the path of detachment that will make you happy and eliminates the drama from your life. Those who want to be a part of your life will follow.

(((Sara)))

[SH_]

Sara,
Many here love and respect you and want to help you...
Please listen with an open mind and heart.
There are many that can share thoughts, advice, tips and ideas that you can benefit from...

In order for that to happen, you will need to sit back and start with a beginners mindset.
You will have to go against all that "feels" right in what you do.
You have applied DB principles like a champ...perhaps the focus has been much on the principles and techniques that were not for your sitch...

LRT has been the principle for you sitch from the moment you arrived here...

Please sit and take note of the many that have traveled the road before you.
The many that have travelled the road with you and move forward successfully...
You can not follow a step by step process at this point...
You must follow the principles and apply what works...

Your question is how to go NC...and you follow with all of the reasons you cannot...
Perhaps look too the reasons and approaches that you can.

MWD just sent out an email that was titled "Practice what you preach"...
She says "Knowing what causes solutions is a great deal more helpful than knowing what causes problems."
"That's because, "What you focus on, expands." Now, just remember that, [Sara]."

You recently mentioned to me too not focus on the thoughts and ideas of others...make it my own...I want to encourage you of the opposite...
You are in the role of student now...you are a beginner...you must first learn the principles from others...then the potential approaches for applicability...then make it yours...
Doing it out of order will set you up to delay the struggle if not lead to a place that one does not want to g...
You will have to open your mind too the possibilities of the good that can come from it all, if you can apply the principles i order and effectively...

I wish that I could just pull you out of the pain, but I know and believe as a dear neighbor of ours, recently told me..."The only way is through it"...

You can do this...start with looking yourself in the eyes and accepting you for who you are...and accepting the BS that you are feeding yourself... then start the process of learning what you must and taking actions contra to your natural habits.
You will prevail...you have an army of us here to provide a helping hand of support, comfort and cheerleading...you will need to do the work, but we are here.

((((((((((Sara))))))))))

[Vanilla]

It's hard to do but essentially you deal with them at admin level. Sleep separately, have food there but don't share meals. Don't wash cook or clean for them. No conversation and leave the room.

Essentially you use grey rock as modified to achieve it.

That's what I did in my in-house S, until the Giggalo left completely.

You treat them to grey rock, cool robot and medium chill.

It is possible.

Please get an L.

V

[Painter]

Sara, I'm going to be brief and direct because although I know you are hurting terribly right now (you know I've been there and stayed in a M with an ongoing affair and lying and cheating for 2 years), but there are long-term concerns here. Have you seen a L? Do you have an IC?

You can't waive child support on behalf of your children. Just the thought tells me that you need to talk to a L.

You are trying to do everything yourself, but you know what they say about the doctor who treats herself...

Get the professional help you need. Don't buy a house until you know the legal ramifications in the state you live in now. Don't set any terms or make any decisions. This is extremely complicated and should not be attempted at home.

(((((Sara)))))

[ForGump]

Sara-

I want to echo what others said -- take it easy!!! Nothing important is going to change over a few days, or even a few weeks.

Know that we are all rooting for you and your well-being.

It's hard to get to know someone just through the forum, but you seem to be a super intense, take the bull by the horn kind of a person. Strong willed. The flip-side of that is that I think you can get really wrapped up in your point of view, in your game plan.

I hope you will take a deep breath and take some time to just BE. And listen to various voices in your life that you value, including those that you may not agree with. Listen to the whole cacophony ... I think it's good to take the focus of your own voice for a while.

My two -- I mean, five -- cents worth ....

p.s. I encourage you to take the hijab off, if that makes you feel stronger. No matter what faith or culture, we all walk around with our own version of the hijab, mental or material.

[Surfer]

Sara,

Do something for the rage and despair. Find a friend to go out with and talk, run, dance etc. Can you get a baby-sitter??? IDK. you know what works best for you. Pop round Cherry's for a facial and nail evening and have a good chat, a glass of wine etc. Seriously - do something, even if its focussing on a christmassy feeling for the kids (even if its Act As If). I am struggling with what to say for you but you will know....

Forget what he is saying. He is feeling trapped and trying to get you to do the heavy lift. Just do exactly what you are good at - ignore what he is saying. If he wants a divorce, jog on WH - your journey. Telling you, you need a L, why did you ever want him now, he is such was such a good WH its contradictory and it is frankly gaslighting. Ignore him. He comes back slamming drawers - is it because he is happy? Surely he must be as he has laid out his plans, knows exactly what he wants and is happy with his choice. I always slam drawers when I am happy. Infact I think in "The Sound of Music" I seem to recall Maria Von Trapp saying this is one of her 'Favourite Things' just after whiskers on kittens.

Nah, meh!

If he does go, you would be fine. More than fine (I am). Just don't stress over it. Be kind to yourself. Ignore this teenagers behaviour. Go about your business, nothing to be seen here....

Surfer

[skyhigh]

Sara,

That's my first post, I have been reading your posts and others since a few months now.
We have a lot in common that's why I became attached to your thread.

You are a very courageous woman but your husband is not on the same planet as you are in term of logic, he is still in the fog, he is still missing his AP. He cheated because something is wrong with him not you, even if he trying to convince you of the opposite, he needs to find a excuse to justify his behavior and his actions because he knows deep down that's plain wrong to cheat and he is provoking you with his remarks to push you to leave him so the decision won't be his but yours, another trick to shift the blame of that kind of decision from him to you. He still believes the world revolves around him and his only priority is his own happiness. It is a strong tendency among cheating male physicians since they are used to be served and their egos stroked several times a day by a myriad of women, I am married to one (powerful and successful) and I witnessed also first hand how they can be nasty with with their wives when they want out.

I know how much pain you have in your heart and how much it hurts thinking your children might grow without having their father in their daily life. They need you as a strong loving mom and they need you not to be in a constant internal pain, and right now you might need to let it go (GAL) not only for you but for them. Even if they are still young they do feel that something is not right now (my youngest one was very sensitive to the tension in the house, the oldest ones they knew what he did) and ask him (verbally) perhaps his opinion about him moving out for a few weeks or months (also in case of divorce he was the one who abandoned the marital home, better to secure full custody of the kids, you might be really surprised how some who didn't want the kids fought for them just to keep some money or put pressure to get what they wanted on their wives) so he can make up his mind without pressure and then you will evaluate the situation (No contact others than the ones needed for the kids, also keep all those messages for later on, it can show how much involved he was with the kids), you need to find some rest, some peace, your home should be your refuge so you can recharge your battery after you workday and be yourself for your kids.

It doesn't mean you have to ask for a divorce but it is obvious you tried everything and you need now to focus on yourself and your kids. It took me several months and the help of a few friends who went though that ordeal to realize that he was only focused on himself after that epiphany my life changed, I started to detach myself from him and my pain went down significantly, it doesn't mean I didn't have any more feelings for him but my mind was not obsessing anymore on how to fix him or our relationship, I was able to rebuild myself as a person and a better mom, they only had me since he didn't care much about them, and college was around the corner for 2 of them. Since we (me and the kids) detached, he is becoming more interested in their lives.

Also boundaries need to be established and reinforced, being respected is a must, be specific and state the consequences. Remember children learn life and what is ok or not by watching us. At one point my son started to talk to me the same way his dad was, that's when I realized how kids can reproduce relationship models without being conscious of them, since the boundaries are up he changed because the boundaries are for all of us.

You will never be able to convince him to change in his current state of mind, the more you will chase him the more he will run away. He never had to be afraid to lose you since you kept begging him, he was always in charge of the game. Remember cheaters like to be in control, because that their way to feel in power/secure and they will say whatever you want to hear (don't believe their words) to stay in control of the situation. When they feel that they are losing you they become nice just to give you some hope to regain control on you. Also once he will be living by himself he won't be able to blame you for whatever is wrong in his life, also he will realize that taking care of kids is really time consuming.
Sara, you need to asses what is the best for you in that very moment, it doesn't mean the decision you make will have to stay for forever, you can always assess, change, re-evaluate.

Life is not a straight line, it is more like Honors Geometry, several steps before the final solution and sometimes you might have to recalculate again specially if the professor decides to change the values.

Plenty of hugs,

[PsySara]

Oh my friends, you are so kind and wise.

SH,
I am thinking to visit about 3 lawyers and seek counsel on how to proceed. This would not be a hasty process, most likely would last a few months, I would also need to build funds for a retainer. I figure if it would be less harmful for the kids to come from a broken home than to live in one, then I will proceed. I would listen carefully and would listen to the experts advice.

Vanilla,
My anger chokes me, robs me of my joy and peace. It wakes me during the night and I have these cyclical thoughts which kindle the anger worse and worse. The anger inevitably leads to deep, aching sadness which then causes this dark cloud to settle down into my throat, stomach, my heart. I don't want anger, I don't want depression...I yearn for peace. I just don't know if that peace will ever come. It's like I havee this wound which festers and I am at a loss on how to get it to heal. I go to IC, I read, I thought stop, I deep breathe and yet...this pain persists. This man, who I thought was my soulmate, is practically sociopathic in his coldness. In March he promised me he would never cheat again and I agreed to give us a second chance, mere days later he told the OW to not consider my pain and they started sleeping together again. My God, it's breath taking in it's awfulness.

Sotto,
It's like I've regressed, huh? It's bizarre, my pain is as intense as it was shortly after dday #1. My sleep has vanished, my nightmares have intensified. I made an appointment with my IC to start EMDR but she had to cancel due to a scheduling conflict. So I hold tight with grim determination to my ability to function. But I've lost my appetite and my heart has started to act up again, heart rate shooting into the 130s-140s. I've made an appointment with the cardiologist on the 3rd and most likely will have to undergo ablation. This man literally broke my heart. Why am I struggling so hard all of a sudden? I am perplexed.

Jim,
I am seriously considering telling WH to find an apartment when I move into the new house. I feel his presence is more toxic at this point than helpful.

Painter,
I saw two lawyers when I was completing my residency, the laws are different in that state than the one I live in presently. I've done some basic research about the requirements to file here, a six month waiting period is required. I've now officially lived her 6 month, WH has only lived here for 3 months. I've been seeing an IC here and there since July. She is highly qualified but our schedules often conflict as we are both mental healthcare professionals. I have screwed up with the self care. My heart is messing up again and I am losing weight, I may soon start an antidepressant that also stops nightmares and increases appetite.

ForGump,
The good news is I won't be able to act on my impulse for at least a month or two. I will need to finish the closing on the house, get the kids sorted with regards to education, and consult a few lawyers. I am in such a physically weakened state presently that I have no choice but to just BE. I have exhausted my mental stores trying to save a M and have neglected my GAL. So I need to step back and step down. I need to rest.

Surfer,
Message received, I definitely need to do better self care. My body is beginning to break down and that means my children are getting a sub par mother. I've made a few doctor's appointments to diagnose and treat my heart, my (newly) diagnosed precancerous cells, and my mental health. I also need to start getting out a bit more and distnace myself from this turmoil.

Skyhigh,
You honor me by registering just to reply to me. I was so touched by your words and your advice. I need to listen to all you wise posters and DETACH. I feel like I keep acting detached but have not accomplished the real thing yet. If I had I wouldn't be spinning this hard all of a sudden. I will re-read your experience and advice, I will try to absorb it and apply it appropriately.

[PsySara]

So just a small update:

DD 6th b-day was yesterday. I bought balloons and a cake and waited until WH came home from call (8 pm) so we could sing her happy birthday and she blew out her candles. WH mostly said nothing and would grunt if I asked a question, he didn't even sing her happy b-day song. What an @ss. I got the kids ready for bed and tucked them in. I bought a nice car in July (which WH put a very large down payment on) and accidentally scratched it pulling it into the garage in September. WH paid for the repair and since then has been parking it for me in the garage. Even though he is not communicating with me and has gone back to stone walling me he continues to park my car. This is so odd to me.

Tonight I came home an hour late, spent some time on my phone chatting with a friend when I got off work. When I arrived home WH was bathing the kids and got the baby ready for bed. Then he went for a motorcycle ride and told me he would be back in 45 minutes. He fell asleep in the MB putting the kids to bed. Now I am watching GOT while updating and wondering what to do? Do I wake him and ask him to sleep in the spare room as he's been doing since our fight or let him stay? I'll probably go to sleep in the MB and he will get up eventually and sulk his way into the spare room.

I have to have a more invasive procedure next week as the colposcopy showed cancerous cells. The week after that I see a cardiologist for my heart. I feel like an old car falling apart.

[skyhigh]

Sara,

When you will look for a lawyer, take your time and don't hesitate to ask some divorced women who were their lawyers and how satisfied they were with. Look for a very experienced one, there are so many situations that can arise, experience is the key, you don't want to lose money or time on extra paperwork that are not needed but make sure your position is well represented. The more a lawyer is despised by an ex-husband the better he was for his ex-wife. Usually a retainer fee is around $ 5.000 you can take the money from your main account, don't be shy or borrow money from a credit federal union connected through your employer (your husband won't know), their rates are extremely low for physicians.

Make an appointment with your personal physician and ask if some anti depressants and sleep aids might help, they helped me a lot, I didn't want to take any for about one year (I was also in the medical field before staying at home and raising my children and I thought I could deal without) even after one of my friends (another divorced doctor's wife) suggested it to me, they were life savers. She was so right, it helped me tremendously. I am now off from them, but sure they helped me to go through the second OW, the college visits and regain control of my mind. Take care of your health, you are now the only responsible parent. Everything will be fine, it is a process, remember step by step, accept help from friends and detach.
Take a few days off if needed, your health is your children future.

Don't get fooled by him being nice today, my husband used to do that when he knew he went too far (flowers, gifts, jewelry, emptying the dishwasher..), respect and help should be daily not only after a fight to make up to feel good for the offender. He didn't care about his child happiness for her birthday it says a lot about his own selfishness. Mine was not here for his youngest one's birthday this year. His schedule was too busy, he makes his own schedule...
Their priorities are themselves.

[ForGump]

WH paid for the repair and since then has been parking it for me in the garage.

Some people have more intimate relationships with things, possessions, then with another human being. I have seen it.

[PsySara]

Yesterday I texted WH wile I was at work letting him know I was taking the kids bowling and he was invited, no response. When he got home he was his usual non-talking/grunting self and I asked if he got my text. He grunted yes and then said, "I don't think I should go at this time." Whatever that means. So I packed up the kids and took them bowling. They had a blast and the baby sat in his stroller and watched contentedly. Then I brought them home (after about 2 hours) and got them ready for bed. WH played with them a little and continued radio silence.

He is working today and I have spent my day doing the usual laundry, house cleaning and taking care of the kids. I noticed WH had parked my car in the garage so I sent him a thank you text which he did not send back a response. Later on some friends stopped by to visit and I was happy and calm. Now I am just relaxing and watching some TV while playing with the kids here and there. I am thinking of taking the kids out somewhere this evening before WH comes home, he needs to feel what it would be like coming home to an empty home.

[skyhigh]

So happy for you, you had a great evening with your kids and had friends coming over. That's GAL.
Taking the kids again tonight sounds a good idea.
Kids are the greatest joy on Earth (even as teenagers lol), my son is sitting next to me and we are watching his favorite sport (mine too). Just looking at him it fills my heart with love. Building those happy memories with them is so important even without him, it took a while for me to grieve the idea of the perfect family outing, but at the end why robbing the kids of being happy and doing things if one didn't want to participate. Now we just do it, and we are happy and somebody is starting to feel left over and trying to sneak back in the family wagon... time and one step a the time...
Warmest hug to you dear Sara

[Surfer]

X

Surfer.

[PsySara]

Skyhigh,
I would love to read your story, please consider posting a thread about your situation. You appear to be in a very good place and would likely provide a good blueprint for what works.

Surfer,
Merry Christmas my friend!

I spent the morning putting together a birthday gift that finally arrived a few days ago from back order. (for my son) My DD6 and DS4 were stoked and squealed with glee. Since everyone had the day off I took the kids to my mom's and they ate lots of food and played until they fell asleep. When I got home WH still wasn't home (either at work or out) so I put DSbaby to bed and bathed and fed the kids a snack. I sorted the kitchen and then took a nice, hot shower. WH came home during that time and again barely grunted a greeting at me. (it is sort of a rule for Muslims to salaam each other, he doesn't even salaam me back, just grunts) He did play a lot with the kids and it warmed me to hear their joy and laughter, anything is worth hearing my children happy.

Now for a bit of a confession, I have a way to view WH's online activity. I know this is a big NO-NO with DBing but it has been very helpful when finding out WH was cheating again with the same OW. I was very shocked to find he has been reading up on how wayward spouses should know about reconciliation with their betrayed spouse. He has NEVER done this on his own. Strangely enough I am not feeling hopeful or even jaded about this...just neutral. Before I would have felt my heart leap with hope but I am inclined to think he probably just glanced out of it and quickly backed away.

I've been reading some threads in the infidelity forum and how others finally learned to detach. It really comes down to validating back to the spouse. For instance:

1. I hear you don't want to be in this marriage and you don't feel love for me, that makes me sad but I accept it.

2. You felt I didn't provide you enough (fill in the blank) and that lead you to find it elsewhere. I am so sorry you felt so alone and unloved.

3. You tell me you want out of this marriage and I hear you, you can leave anytime, I won't stop you.

And you have to mean it. Really mean it. It makes no sense for me to hope and pray and beg and fight for this man. I can let go and also let go of the outcome. I will not do anything to push him out the door but I also won't try to pull him towards me. I REALLY need to start working on the relationships I have with others and strengthen them. I need to turn more towards those who are loving and supportive to me. I need to nurture those lovely people and in turn blossom under their bright light. I really need to take better care of my children's mother, since I am their primary support and consistency.

I have a IC session this coming week. I think I will ask her for guidance on mindfulness and how to be in the moment as opposed to ruminating over painful memories. I will talk to a friend of mine who is a NP in psychiatry and may get her to prescribe an antidepressant that works for PTSD and poor sleep. I will likely wean off in 6 months if I feel able. For some odd reason I feel so peaceful today so I am soaking up this feeling while it occurs. I also want to find how I got in this emotional oasis so it can happen with more frequency.

[skm0619]

Sara..... I have only been on the boards for a short time, but I have read your posts, and I am amazed at your strength.

Something you said made me stop and think. You said ....you need to turn towards those who are loving and supportive to you. I love that!!!! I also needed to "hear" that. I have friends who have been very supportive through all of this and I find that I am not really making much effort to be a friend back to them. Hopefully I can change that.

I see we have something in common as we are both in the medical field. I find that this requires us to be stronger for everyone else, and then we don't have anything left for ourselves. I am guilty of doing that. I'm not sure if you forget about the self care you need to give yourself, but I have a suspicion you do. Your children need their mommy so do take care of yourself.

[skyhigh]

My story is very long and complicated, sometimes with my friends we are laughing about the fact I could write a book and make that story as a psychological thriller...

I don't know if I am in a good place but the place is much better than before for sure. I read everything I could find on MLC, most probably one of the best writer is Jon Conway (6 midlife crisis stages) and Hearts Blessing, their description of the different phases and what's going on in the mind of the MLCer helped a lot.

Also after I caught him last time (May 2016), I told him I was done without screaming and I went 180 and dark when necessary, the opposite of the first time (June 2015) (begging, asking him what I could do...) he understood he was in deep burning water, I turned down everything and made it clear I could just go to step 1 (not filing right away and no more marital relationship) but he had to cut all ties with other women and a few other things... I knew it was my chance to test if he was serious or not.

He used one of his friends' home for his "affairs", we had a dinner with that guy a few days later, I did a "targeted exposure" to that person (divorced because cheated on his wife numerous times), I refused to shake his hand in front of people and told my husband (in his ears) who thought I didn't know about that "tell your friend that I know how you used his home", both freaked out. It helped him to go back to reality pretty quickly no more thoughts "I have full control over my wife I can manipulate her the way I want, she won't go anywhere she will beg me anyway", guess what : game over. It shook him out of replay, and he went into depression/withdrawal. It was a "back to reality", La La land crashing, oh my gosh I messed up (he didn't say anything but I could tell he was worried about himself and the mess he was in. It was a beginning of another phase...

Don't expect him to acknowledge you because it's about control/power, by ignoring you he is showing you that he can play with your emotions, so GAL and detach. Most probably he is starting to notice some changes and it's something that bothers him.

And for snooping, as far it can give you info to be ahead of the game, why not, my principle is: acting is better than reacting. Sincerely I was hurt so much each time something dropped on me I rather have an idea to what to expect. We are already victims why we don't have the right to have some warnings...
You are so right not to try to interpret what he does or says because as they say, don't believe their words and just a tiny bit of what they do.

Take good care of you and your children, good night dear Sara.

[JksD]

Sara, I have been away from the boards and I am sorry to read of the recent developments.

Your wh seems to have sunk deeper into the wayward fog. One thing strikes me odd though. It does take a lot of self-awareness to know that he is incapable of making changes.

I am so sorry for the pain you're going through. I agree with what has been said. Don't make hasty decisions legally. I always feel that you must and should go for what is yours legally, and then some. He is your children's father. He should be financially responsible for them. Therapy costs will add up to a lot and it will be good if he shoulders the costs.

You must remember that you have 3 kids and kids are expensive. Especially college. Is yours a no - fault state? If it's not, you may want to check if he has had any contact with ow or another ow.

Will you be at a disadvantage if you don't file for d? Weigh the pros and cons.

If you won't be disadvantaged, let your h do the work.

Sara, you're still having expectations of your h and that is why you are still spinning. I know it's hard not to but for your sanity's sake, you have to.

Step up on your self-care and surround yourself with people who care for you. You need legal, mental, emotional and physical support. Do you have close friends you can lean on?

Sara, you must take care of yourself first. Don't think about the M. Maybe you'll have a breakthrough when you let it go.

(((Sara)))

[Surfer]

Sara,

I wouldn't snoop personally. You can stay ahead of the game by just assuming he is cheating, you won't be far wrong and you will know if and when thing feel better between you. Snooping can leave you obsessed about it and that is attachment. Just leave him to it. The info has no value for you in any event. What can you do with it?

Working towards those 3 points is good. Letting him know you are done with it. He likes to feel he still has you there.....in his palm. Don't let him. Work towards those 3 points and release yourself from his grasp.

When you feel ready you can tell him. You could write the letter that MWD recommends in the LRT.

Keep on keeping on.

Surfer.

[PsySara]

Dory,
You are absolutely right, I must let go. I examine why I regress so much. For every step forward I feel like I slip back 3. I think it comes down to my need to feel in control. And as we all know, we have absolutely zero control over those that betray us, if we could we would never know the pain of infidelity. Also fear is a HUGE issue for me, I fear my children will suffer if WH is not in their lives. I fear my children will end up like my brothers, broken men who exist but do not truly live. But in the end I can only be the best mother I can be and pray it will suffice. I also have to lay to rest the fantasy I had growing up of raising my children in a whole home. I used to be so proud that I had found such a stable, strong and honorable man. I used to admire my husband so much. Now...I don't know who this man is.

Skm,
I can't take credit for the wisdom I typed, it was lifted straight from Dr Phil. Today I was struggling to decide which friends to turn to. I am very guilty of trying to always be the strong one. I need to grab the life vest instead of treading water until I sink.

Surfer,
I feel mixed about the snooping, I think I would have been much more prepared for dday #2 if I had a head's up. I would have handled it much calmer and controlled that's for sure. But the shock caught me off guard and I reacted as opposed to acted.

At this time WH has said maybe a handful of words to me this entire week. Mostly he just grunts when I greet him. While I find it annoying because it's passive aggressive I am not hanging onto his every reaction. I still have waves of sadness and anger hit me but I am working on re-framing my thought process. I got my NP friend to prescribe AD to me today and will start them tomorrow. Something small but meaningful I did today was back my own car into the garage. I have been too nervous since I scratched it and WH has been doing it for me. I figure if I am going to move on I need to start parking my own car, haha. I was ridiculously proud of myself after successfully completing it.

WH is on call until 7 pm tonight which is a bit of a relief when it comes to detaching. I have already cooked dinner, fed the kids, bathed them and put the baby to bed. Now I am treating myself to watching reruns of Game of Thrones and eating holiday food.

[skyhigh]

What a great symbol of GAL, parking your own car showed your newly independence from him, no words, just actions. Beautiful ! I am pretty sure somebody is going to be very puzzled tonight.
So proud of you!

Don't worry about his absence of "appropriate communication", all MLCers do that. Just ignore it but it doesn't mean you have to accept a lack of respect (verbal abuse, spew, or OW). That's why you need boundaries to be put in place and have the consequences clearly spelled out.
e.g.:
_ if you want to see OW (aka enjoy some fun) please move out first I won't stop you, I cannot and don't want to control you but I cannot tolerate that lack of respect.
- if you have any contact (messages or meetings) with OW behind my back and I become aware of it, I will deliver your luggage to your clerk at your office and send a general email to your friends to explain the situation because I won't take the blame.

Also make sure you don't tolerate any abusive comments , leave the room as soon it starts and go dark. Later on, let him now whatever the consequences you might think of.
It is not about control it is about regaining control of your own dignity.
Enjoy your kids, they need you. They are learning love , empathy and how to be treated and treat others through you...
Stay informed whatever you feel is needed for your protection, sadly I saw so many women being shortsighted by their cheating husbands and it was too late. I learned from my "sisters".
Myself staying informed helped me to learn OW1 was back with WH 4 months after DB 1, pushing him to leave me and the children and move across the country and abandoned us. Nothing wrong to know your enemies' plans unless you like being a victim and suffer another martyrdom. Life is a choice. And sincerely the kids and I had rather enough being abused verbally and walking on eggshells without knowing what to expect next.

[Cadet]

Please start a new thread

[JksD]

Sara, b4 your thread gets locked, I just needed to say this.

I understand your fear. Heck, I am still experiencing it.


I am not going to tell you bs about the pain and the fear going away magically. I also won't tell you bs about how you need to woman up and sweep these emotions under the rug.

We are entitled to our emotions. Right or wrong, moral or amoral, they serve a purpose. They tell us what we need to do to protect ourselves.

You fear that your kids will suffer if your M breaks down. In a D, there will always be scars. There will be pain, hurt and regret. It's total rubbish to say that kids aren't hurt by D.

But Sara, you've been trying so hard. And look at yourself, you're proof that you can defy the odds. Teach your kids the same skills that you've used. They need these skills regardless of how your M turns out.

The best you can do now is to take care of yourself. You don't have to choose to opt out of the M yet but you need to keep on even keel. Feel your fear and acknowledge what it's trying to tell you. Then act despite your fear; dont let fear cloud your judgment.

Pull back, Sara, pull back.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. Remember what's in the stickies? Believe none of what they say and half of what they do.

Your h wants a D? Then let him do the dirty work. But get all your ducks in a row.

What has helped me is my religion. I pour myself into it and it provides me comfort. Perhaps you could find the same support from your faith?

(((Sara)))

[PsySara]

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