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#2716009 11/14/16 02:23 PM
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Here is the link to my last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2715326&page=1

Job - I think my last thread may have locked? I'd like to link this thread to that one but I might need you to edit it into my last post, please?

New thread, and now 2 years post BD. Most times, I literally and figuratively feel relief. I am so thankful that I have made it this far and I don't necessarily mean in standing for my marriage.

As for h? He's been sick for a few weeks now and has been to a doctor for some meds. Oh, so hard hard to zip it and not say: don't forget to get a script for your craziness, too!!!

He's been in that room A.LOT.

Pre BD, life with h was tremendously ridiculous. It never made any sense but of course, it all makes sense now that I understand he'd boarded the kooky express.

How stupid were things? One of the things h was always picking a fight about was sunblock. He was always mad that I was sunblocking myself and the kids?!? We live in a perpetually sunny place so I told him the kids and I would pass on the skin cancer, thanks. He told me a tan is more attractive. While I agree, I also said it does me little good if I am dead in a year. Also, I argued it may look good now but years later, I would be an alligator.

At around this time, H had a friend who had a cancerous growth from the sun and subsequently this friend started being really careful with sun exposure because well, he has a brain. When h got together with him, h would be mad that his friend would be wearing a wide brimmed hat!! Yes, life with him was THIS stupid. I told h this was a matter of life and death for this guy and h said he should stop wearing the ridiculous hat. It was like an upclose and personal with a real live village idiot.

Soon thereafter they had a falling out, surprise, surprise. The guy was too mature for h, I am sure. They'd been friends for 10 years and when the guy disagreed with h on something minuscule, h ditched him in true MLC fashion. I couldn't believe he'd done it! The guy was a good guy and a solid friend. After he told me the story, I told him he'd gone too far and he should apologize. I was SO confused. H's response: I can't be friends with someone who wears that hat. I kept praying I was on the longest running episode of Candid Camera.

In the dreaded letter, one of his brilliant requests on how to fix our m, was that I should throw on a bikini and tan myself on the beach 24/7.

Last night S13 mentions something about how long term smoking can really age you. And then h says, so does the sun. I nearly fell over. On and on h goes about the dangers of the sun. Suddenly he's the Surgeon General.

Then h says loudly, to both boys: "stay away from women who spend their days tannning up at the beach. That is all bad news."

It was such a weird, but huge trigger I realized. For years he to tortured me with this sun issue.

Who knows if he even remembers all that. I was so tempted to ask him if he was recanting his previously ignorant opinions on skin cancer. I had to leave he room because I wanted to go over there, grab him by the shoulders and say: blink if you're in there and trying to communicate!!!

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HaWho one of the things my H brought up as "marital issues" is the fact the I refused to allow the kids to get out in the sun between 12-4. Apparently my kids are not "more precious" than all the other kids in the Mediterranean, so why am I so fussy about it? I personally cannot stand the sun, and even though I am extremely careful I managed to get Bacal Cell Carcinoma two years ago which is a form of skin cancer. I still remember the terror in his eyes when I got my diagnosis. When Imentioned that to H, he said that I was weird about the sun even before that happened, and I shouldn't use that as an excuse. Apparently all the medical advice is wrong, H knows best.

I'm glad yours now realises the dangers of the sun, obviously it must have been a crazy moment when you heard the words come out of his mouth though!

I don't know what to say about the letter. You "kooky express train" term sums it all up I guess...

Well done for handling the last two years so well, you are an inspiration xxx


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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Quote:
H's response: I can't be friends with someone who wears that hat.


Lol - was it an old man hat? Probably made H feel old too.

Quote:
H's response: I can't be friends with someone who wears that hat.


Quote:

Then h says loudly, to both boys: "stay away from women who spend their days tanning up at the beach. That is all bad news."


Ummmm......did he have a tan OW? Sounds like. Sometimes they want us to become more like the OW, in hopes that they can then feel the same infatuation about us. Unfortunately, I was not able to morph into an Asian woman lol.

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Originally Posted By: kml
Sometimes they want us to become more like the OW, in hopes that they can then feel the same infatuation about us. Unfortunately, I was not able to morph into an Asian woman lol.
HAHAHA! kml, you crack me up! I almost spit my wine reading this.

HaWho, I cannot stop being amazed at what your H comes up with. I wish I could study his brain. I’m really curious what prompts him to change his opinions sometimes.


M:50
H:52
S28 (my S from previous marriage)
M:17 + 3
BD: 06/12
S: 06/12 - H works in another state
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Hi Esame, KML and Bright. Nice to hear from you all.

Esame - that must have been scary to receive that diagnosis.

Bright - before you study his brain you'd have to find it first.

KML - yep, he thought the hat was for an old person! And in hindsight, at that point, h was heading into hipster mode, full throttle. As for the tanned up comment, I didn't reference that well. S13 was talking about an employee at his school who was a heavy smoker and also a devout sun worshipper. S13 said she was aged beyond her years. So then h piped in with his tan comment and he also said heavy drinking and smoking also accelerates aging.

Of course, h very well could have some loser tanned up OW, but in this instance he seemed to be saying all that was bad because it makes you age poorly.

In other late breaking MLC news, h mentioned he is going to get a rotary phone for his dorm room. Seriously. He's looking online for options.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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A rotary phone? Sounds like he's back in the pre-cell phone era. Maybe he thinks he's spending too much money on minutes for texting, etc. That's just crazy...but not unusual.

I guess he'll be getting his tree up and decorated before too long. LOL!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Originally Posted By: kml
Sometimes they want us to become more like the OW, in hopes that they can then feel the same infatuation about us. Unfortunately, I was not able to morph into an Asian woman lol.
I got off easy because all my W wanted me to do was to become a guy who would sit on the couch and watch sports. Not interested!

HaWho - There are apps you can download that put a rotary dial on a smart-phone. On a good note, this should slow down his texting - imagine how hard it will be to spell sunblock one spin at a time laugh


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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A rotary phone? Is that one like my parents had in the 70's where you actually dial with a finger? That's going to age him a great deal I think! grin xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Oh you guys, thanks for the laughs. Still cracking up.

Maybe I should just install a pay phone booth outside his room and give him a bag of quarters, nickels and dimes . . .


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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hope this works and doesn't break any rules. merry christmas to your husband:
https://www.amazon.com/Vintage-ROTARY-fashioned-Rotary-Telephone/dp/B00A66R3YY


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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English is not my first language, and I didn't even know what a rotary phone is, thanks for teaching me something new Mr HaWho. And Bttrfly thank you for that link grin


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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Oh my goodness - it is exactly the same!

Interesting the fascination with the vintage phone technology. Personally I love my smart phone!

Xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Same old crazy over here. H is talking a lot lately and is trying his hardest to pick fights with me.

He's back to doing that rude thing where he starts a conversation and categorically excludes me. So he'll say: "s11, today in the news I read x" even though I am standing right there, too. And then he discusses it like I don't exist.

Hot weirdo MLC topic of the week? There is evidence the planet can only be sustained for the next 1000 years. H would like to be cryogenically frozen while scientists search for other habitable planets. And then unfrozen in 1000 years. (Secretly, I am hoping he'll get a jump on the whole self-freezing process now.)

He is jittery and jumpy, too. His mind seems to be racing. He mentioned he just "has to get out of this house." Seems he still thinks he can outrun himself.

The worst thing is he is back to trying to start fights. This really reminds me of pre-BD. And of when my family was coming. At s's game, he came right up and sat next to me, cracking a joke. I said something funny back but from there it wasn't normal again.

We started talking about s13 and whether he should do x activity. We were in a loud sports arena and the acoustics are horrible. No one was around us. I say that I think s13 should do the activity and say a bit about why. H gets this wrinkled up face and in a hushed tone says "can we discuss this in private?" I look around totally confused. I tell him there is no one around us?!? (Even if there were we're talking about an after school activity in a loud arena, we're not plotting how we're going to abduct the kids off the bleachers.)

H says my face is all red and we need to stop talking?!? I ask how that's possible when 1 minute ago we were joking and laughing. He says let's talk in private.

This reminds me of when he shushed me!!!

So I say "well, it's never convenient for you." And I know I bristle. It just feels like he has to pick a fight or control this stupid conversation. He says "we can talk anytime in private" and he says I have an attitude. I probably did make a face because the whole thing was so bizarre.

He puts in his headphones. Then he gets up and goes elsewhere. His panties are all in a bundle. He steers clear of me for the whole game.

I enjoy the game. And here's a big difference: I mull it all over for 30 seconds flat and I know it was not a private conversation and I know I wasn't beet red. He's just trying to start stuff. Either he is about to do something he's going to feel guilty about or he's starting stuff because he's nervous about seeing family. Maybe both.

I do think he wants to find a reason to get angry at me so the can tell me not to go to his friend's house when we go back east. I think he's nervous about it.

The old me would have reacted and played right into this. I would have tried to reason with him. Then I would've lost patience and by the end, it would have have looked like it was all me, which is what he wants. I would have gone up, apologized, made peace, etc. Now? I see it exactly for what it is. It's snit time. I ignore it all and let him work through it himself.

At the end of the game, I compliment s. H does, too. And then h offers to buy s something. And he offers me something, too. That is new. Usually, he'd be in his snit a lot longer. He evens asks me a question rather than doing his PA ignoring routine.

We get home and I just leave the house for a bit. I think for the next month he is going to be picking fights just like he did before my family arrived.

This is usually when the real crazy stuff (as opposed to 'normal crazy') comes forward.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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I really admire how long you have stood and the antics you have gone through. Well done.

Maybe next time agree with H and ask when he would like to talk in private?
Regardless I am happy to read his antics do not leave a lasting affect on you or your mood. Well done.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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Gosh Doll if you're in my neck of the woods and can sneak out, we should get together for tea and company !!! I don't know how you stand but God bless ya, you do it with grace and dignity.

You're posts into the view of MLC have helped me on those occasions when STBXH and I are interacting - probably more than you will ever know! Thanks for your continued posting and I hope that things improve soon. xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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I think your h is being his old PA self and is picking fights to justify not being a participant "family" member over the holidays. He may be working up to a snit to find an excuse to stay home while you are gone.

His behavior is so much like my xh's pre-crisis. Every holiday and my birthday, he would work up to argument level to ruin the special time. It was like clock work. It took me years to figure out that he was not comfortable being around my family and didn't want anyone to have the attention but him. So sad, because my family treated him just like a son...but it was his loss.

You've got this. Any mention of putting up the tree yet?


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
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Ooh yes, it's getting a little late for the tree to be up. I agree, I think he is 'acting out' to try and achieve some end or other...I wouldn't risk to it...be graceful and peaceable in his presence...

Xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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HaWho, I feel for you. But you still deal with his crazy like a pro, I wish I will be as good a MLC whisperer as you are. Sweetie you've got this, well done xxx


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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Thanks Roist, Bttrfly, Job, Sotto and Esame. I appreciate all the advice and support.

Job and Sotto- it cracks me up that you are on "tree watch." Remember, h did say it was not just a holiday tree, rather, it was a tree for all seasons. (It has ornaments and frosted faux snow.)

And Job - regarding your h building excuses to get out of going places? Awful, just awful. Wonder if my h will do the same.

Boy-oh-boy, do I have a doozy of a story. Job, this one has gotta be one for the MLC books.

Yesterday, after returning home I notice some of h's stuff outside his room on this ledge. And the stuff he moved would make space for "the tree." So I pop my head into the garage but the tree is still there. Hmm.

Later that night h asks the kids to watch a sports event with him in his room. He makes a big fuss over it: "guys, do you want to watch x with me in my room?" Kids say yes. So he says be down at x time. Then later he reminds them again. And then further on he tells them "10 minutes to start time." I just assume he is really looking forward to this sports thing.

I am upstairs reading. Hours later, s11 comes up when they are done. We watch a little tv but it's late, about 10, so about time for him to hit the hay. There's a loud banging noise downstairs and I assume s13 is just being really rough with his Nerf basketball game. But it's really loud and keeps going on. So I pop my head over the ledge and ask s what the racket is. S13 from his room, upstairs, answers it's not him. Uh oh. That only leaves one person . . .

So I ask h, what is going on down there? He snaps "nothing!" And is super cranky. He tells me just to go to bed. I tell him s11 does need to go to bed and can't with all the hammering. And I think: what if he is trying to build an addition onto the stinky dorm room?

Turns out h removed the door to the dorm room off its hinges so that a couch could fit through the doorway and they could all watch in his room! Only now, he was having a problem getting the door back. And he was sooo mad.

I wonder if he is trying to compete with me by "hosting" in his room? The kids are often in my room. Maybe he's jealous? Or maybe h's at the age where he wants to have friends over in his space? This became important to s13 this summer.

Ok, so remember the box of cords he found a few weeks ago? He goes to the closet and can't find them. He asks who took his cords. He is frustrated. We all say "not I." And sure enough he finds the cords and apologizes to us. Drilling noise follows.

He does get the door back up. I am sure he is relieved as of course, without a door, how can he can possibly leave the house?!?

This morning he wakes up and he is cheerful with the kids but sooo grumpy with me. I go play tennis.

H is just sooooo cranky. ALL.THE.TIME. This is how he was pre BD. The difference is I was so confused back then. Well, I am still confused but for different reasons altogether now . . .

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I don't know what to say, hawho.... You're a saint. I wish you and your family a sane and calm thanksgiving.


Me- 30's H- 40's
T-10 M-5
I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15
D filed by H: September 16
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Thanks Feyth.

Just posting this to show the remarkable immaturity that can manifest in this process.

A few days ago, h was texting me a bit. All normal stuff. Then a few hours later from when he sent it, I saw a picture he had sent me along with a joke. So I commented and also joked. He sent back a terse text saying he'd sent the picture 2 hours ago. So I said my cellular was off so I didn't receive it. (I have told him this before about needing cellular on to receive pictures.). He said "I know." But I regret explaining it. It was two hours and it was a silly picture. I won't explain again as it makes me feel like the Julia Roberts character in Sleeping with the Enemy.

Fast forward to today. At midday he sends a text asking if we all want to go to dinner as he is craving x and he sends a smiley face. Twenty minutes later? He sends me a nasty text saying: "no answer? OK. No problem. I will eat x here anyway."

He rescinded the invite because I didn't answer in 20 minutes! Guess I am supposed to sit like a chicken with my phone underneath my rump?

45 minutes later, after the first text, I said I was sorry we missed the boat on the invite and thanked him.

In other news he's all over the place. He's been cracking jokes sometimes, like his old self. But then he gets super cranky minutes later. He's pretty much always cheerful with the dog now. Lately he sometimes tells me places he has gone and things he has done. It's all small stuff but he's kept all this very hush hush for the last two years.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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HaWho, I hope you are keeping a journal other than here. This is going to make a heck of a book! You are managing everything so incredibly well with his mood swings and strange flip-floppy behavior. How are your kiddos handling all of this? Do you have discussions about what is happening or do they just go with it and shake their heads? I know everyone has their own ways depending on the ages and personalities of the kids and the relationship status between all involved. Its just so chaotic with MLCers. My own kids are grown, yet it affects them almost daily. So I guess I'm just curious.


M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

Kindness, kindness, kindness.
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Ciluzen - it must be hard on your kids. Their whole lives they remember things being a certain way and then poof, it all changes. And obviously they really must see all the changes in their father.

So, as for my kids, there were similarities in how they handled this in the beginning. In the height of replay they both became super clingy, we all co-slept for quite some time and they were needy, in general.

S11 was most worried about divorce. It scared him. He asked a lot of questions about that. I heard him once ask h about divorce. H told him divorce was no big deal, just a quick piece of paper was all one needed! (He was ice cold and the TOTAL opposite of what he used to say/think about divorce.) S11 (who was 9 then) came and lied to me, with his lip quivering, he told me that h had said he would never get a divorce. That about broke me in two. It hurt the most that I could not promise s that we would not divorce. H was such a mess then. (He still is but in different ways now.)

The most residual weird "thing" s11 has is that anytime h goes anywhere, he interrogates: "where are you going?" "When will you be back?" The second h opens the hall closet to get his coat, s11 starts the questioning. H does not seem to pick up on its root cause.

(The coat closet is a trigger for me, too. In the height of replay, h would get his coat and just leave without saying a single word. He literally looked like a zombie.)

With S13, it's more complicated. When h moved downstairs s asked a lot of questions. On the advice of an IC, I told him h wasn't sleeping well and so, not to wake me, h slept down there. S13 was just 11 at the time and is quite perceptive. He said h abandoned me. He knew h was off his rocker from the get-go.

At first I tried bobbing and weaving around his questions. But he was persistent. One day, out of the clear blue he asked: "is dad having a midlife crisis?" And I told him the truth. Over time I explained a lot of the psychology behind it. I know he figured it out from certain tv shows that were portraying men in MLC. H met so many of the cheesy stereotypes.

S13 remembers h before this. He feels the loss. Sometimes he'll say: "remember when dad used to do x?" Sometimes it's like we're talking about a dead person.

He sees that his friend's dads are different. Well, actually, that his dad is different from other fathers. My h's father walked out on them and was a deadbeat. H told the kids this before MLC. S13 has said: "dad is just as unavailable as his own dad was to him. The only difference is that he still lives here." Ouch.

There have been times s13 and h have had discussions where s13's logic is significantly more refined than h's. I am pretty sure s13 went off and did a massive amount of reading on this. And he is a kid who does better when he knows the ugly truth.

H is slightly better with them now than 2 years ago. But he's no where near the father he was before all this.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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How are you coming along in the "no texting" in the home situation? Has he ceased the texting while under the same roof w/you? If not, you really do need to stick to your guns about him actually talking to you versus the texting. It doesn't matter if it's asking you about eating out or blasting you about something...he needs to learn to "talk" to you.

I do hope that you and your family have a nice Thanksgiving. He doesn't realize just how lucky he is to have a warm, loving and patient wife.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Job, there have not been any in-home text conversations since the last time I told him to come to me to discuss things.

What made this situation particularly ridiculous is that I was not at home when he asked us to dinner and then rescinded the offer in 20 minutes. His expectation that I should be ever-available is juvenile.

But don't worry. I get it that he needs to man up and learn how to interact face to face. I will toe the line on this. My suspicion is that he'll purposely not text while we're both home but just try at a time when we aren't both home. I'll be ready to say: let's discuss this later, face to face, when we're both home.

Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate!


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Happy Thanksgiving to you too.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Okay, 24 hours later, I finally awoke from my food coma.

Thanksgiving was interesting. I cannot get over how much happier I am this year! I had a really nice day.

H and I took the kids sonewhere fun before dinner. We sat together and watched them play. I felt no discomfort and no awkwardness. What a contrast from last year. It was a bit cold and h offered to buy me a tea. I said no at first but he insisted and I was glad I had it as the afternoon grew colder. The boys had a great time; so many smiles and laughs.

H had his sense of humor about him. He sent a few funny pictures to his family. They were photos that demonstrated his old sense of humor.

At one point at the start of dinner, the boys went out together to get a nice picture of the sunset. H and I were alone. He said something I didn't catch. So I asked him to repeat it. He had said that our family was small and even smaller now with the two kids outside. I laughed at the wit. It was funny as he always wanted a really large family.

It's odd how memories can flash to you in an insant. Years ago, h and I had a really silly argument. I can't even remember what it was about but at the end he told me I was not part of his family! I am patient, but when I get mad I get really mad. (My BIL who I have known for years saw me mad at him once and his wife, my sister, said "ohhh, this is really rare to see her mad. Now you're going to get it. BIL said he was so shocked to see my quick tongue lash out and that side of me.)

I told h to apologize. He would not. (He was already in the MLC anger phase I now realize.). We were in the car and I told him to pull over. I got out and walked home 2 miles in a dress, my heels in my hands and smoke coming out of my ears. About a mile in he pulled over and told me to please get in the car and I said NO! He followed alongside for a bit until I told him I would call the police and report him for harassing me!!! He drove off, finally.

So, I had forgotten that. I wonder if he wasn't already "talking" to his mom even back then as he always told me she wasn't really his family. That was 4 or 5 years ago. Not sure how early in MLC they can project?!?

Later on the boys are sitting near each other. And they lean in and kind of hug. All bias aside, they really are kind boys. Most siblings their age are at each others' throats. H turned to me and his look showed his endearment over it. Most boys do not show that affection openly for anyone, never mind a brother. Whenever they ask for something I always joke: I already gave you the gift of a lifetime--your brother. This induces a lonnng groan and impressive eye roll.

At the end of dinner we all got up from the table and s13 hugged h. Then s11 did. I was just going to walk by, but h opened up his arms and we hugged. That is the first hug he has intitiated in so long. As we walked he put his hand on my hip and kind of guided me. He did the same on the stairs. So like his old self.

But I am worried. I felt nothing. No sadness, no pain, no resentment, no nostalgia; really and truly, no emotion whatsoever. I am concerned about that.

Don't think the night was not touched by MLC though. We watched a movie, a favorite of h's from childhood. The second the movie ended? H immediately said: "every person in that film is now dead." Ahh, there's that sunny side of MLC. S13 asked: does that depress you? H dodged the question.

I thanked him for a nice day. He thanked me for the nice company. And the first thing that came to my mind was: there could be a lot of men who would enjoy my company.

There was one moment that was odd. At the end of the movie, h saw another rated R movie on and asked if I'd seen it. I said I had and that it was good. I thought he was just being conversational. But later, upstairs by myself I remembered him telling the kids they couldn't watch it and I wonder if he wasn't angling to watch it alone with me?!? Who knows. The thing is, it just does not occur to me that we would do anything alone without the kids. It wasn't even on my radar.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Originally Posted By: HaWho

But I am worried. I felt nothing. No sadness, no pain, no resentment, no nostalgia; really and truly, no emotion whatsoever. I am concerned about that.

I thanked him for a nice day. He thanked me for the nice company. And the first thing that came to my mind was: there could be a lot of men who would enjoy my company.


Hi HaWho,
Happy Thanksgiving ...
I think it's actually normal that you felt nothing. Honey, you've been living directly in the war zone that is MLC ... there's bound to be some trauma. You've had to shut down to some extent I think to survive. I defer to people who have been around longer, but that's my feeling on this. He has caused a lot of damage to your trust and it will take more than one nice day together to restore that. Yes, a lot of men would enjoy your company. I think that this is what they mean when they say ultimately it's up to us whether or not the marriage survives.

I have felt that also. My heart has always skipped a beat when I look at my STBXH. I noticed at S's confirmation that it no longer happens. Now when I look at him I don't see my darling husband. I see the man who abandoned me and broke my and our son's heart. That makes me sad, but there is no skipping heart any longer. Could it come back? Dunno. I can only tell you that I think it's normal given the circumstances. Best to keep it in the day to day.

xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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I agree w/bttrfly's posting. Those feelings will eventually return, but right now, you've been hurt so deeply and you've put up a wall to protect yourself, your emotions/feelings and what you are experiencing is very normal. Right now, I wouldn't be too concerned about how you feel. The time to be concerned is when he wakes up and that's when you'll need to figure out whether those feelings will thaw. You may even have to consider an IC for yourself to help you work through the trauma you've experienced over the last few years...but that's down the road a bit. For now, focus on the good things that happened over this holiday and be thankful that he acted like an adult and not some little brat for a change.

I'm very happy that things were calm and all of you could enjoy the holiday. Now...it's on to the tree decorating and holiday away from home!


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I don't doubt for a minute that there are many men who would enjoy your company.

I totally understand that you are standing for a M with someone you are not sure you want to reconnect to. Or rather you are not sure you can reconnect.
Cross that bridge when it comes.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
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HaWho,

I'm really pleased you and your family had a good Thanksgiving. It sounds like you have done a great job detaching, which is probably why you had no feelings. I guess that's a good thing though, isn't it? I think we need to protect ourselves and you are smart enough to recognise that his improved behaviour could change in an instant.

It's also great that you give yourself a mental pep talk by thinking to yourself that many men would enjoy your company. It is true, you are an amazing lady xxx


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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Yes, I agree with what others have posted. In fact, I'd find it more worrying if you got sucked straight back in..

I also feel little in the way of feelings for XH - sometimes compassion, sometimes rather numb, some disdain, then compassion, then very little, then keen to just leave it all behind.

Truly, I'm not even sure I would consider reconciling and moving on seems like the more attractive option. Then I remember I have been dealing with 'new XH' for almost 3 years now and I don't like 'new XH' much.

I would just accept the feelings and keep moving forward for now. Though I can see it must feel more difficult when you share a home and he is being nicer. Maybe just see how things unfold over time.

Glad you had a nice time anyway :-) xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Hello HaWho! I am in awe of your resilience and your detachment. Your predicament has similarities to mine. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I have learned so much, and God willing, will continue to learn more. May I ask, how long did it take for you to really feel that you had detached? What are some things that have helped you?

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Thanks Bttrfly, Job, Roist, Esame and Sotto. I appreciate the kind words and the support.

Fighton - love your name! Thanks so much for the encouraging words. Honestly, I think I really started to detach a few months ago. As for what worked for me? I did do a massive amount of reading on depression and MLC. And then I re-read and re-read. It helped me to understand what I was seeing as in the beginning, it was surreal. The people here helped me so much, too. Especially poor Job who kept telling me it wasn't my fault.

It begins by understanding you didn't cause this and you couldn't have prevented it. Then I began by GAL. This helped keep me from slipping into my own depression over the reality of things. For me, it was 100% physical. I began hiking and played a lot of tennis. This helped me get through the anger. I walked A LOT. Still do. To this day, I still have sneakers and a change of clothes in my car in case I feel the need to get away. Other than that, it takes time to process it all. Ironically, once you begin to detach you see it's actually harder and more painful to hold on than to let go.

There is no one way to get through this. The trick is to keep to healthy coping patterns.

Quick update: came home from early morning errands Saturday and "Let it Snow" was blaring from the dorm room. H mentioned his tree and said he'll put it in the hallway this year so it's in the entance hall. Thought it would be fun to make it like the "elf on the shelf" and move it each day! Let's see if he really can share it.

Later in the day h listened to really depressing 70's music ALL.DAY.LONG. I realized I'd rather listen to Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer over and over again rather than the depressing drivel.

We picked up our tree and had plans to decorate it Sunday. But h was too tired. And too tired last night, as well. Poor tree is still sitting naked in the corner of the living room. It looks as sad as h.

Last night I overheard him talking to his best buddy from college. The friend asked where h was calling from and h said his "man cave." Hmm, more like "cub cave." Then he proceeded to tell his friend how "awesome" his "man cave" is. He was selling hard. Loads of exuberance! Of course he never told the guy it doubles as his nursery!

He's moved some pictures around the house. He took some of his favorites from elsewhere and moved them into the dorm room. I know this is PA. He is trying to tell me: "I am going to move the best stuff into my room because I am stuck in the smallest room of the house. Nah nah nah boo boo."

He again mentioned how small his bathroom is. But again, did so with kids in the room. He also made another PA comment about my depression. That also was done with S11 in the room and so that it went over s's head. I ignored it. It's easy to do because A) I have already apologized for that B) I am not that person anymore HOWEVER, I am mortal and did mourn over my sister's son and C) I have forgiven myself.

If he ever wakes up I will try my hardest not to make shots at him for his own depression. It's really distasteful.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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There is some good music from that era!!

WOW. Great post from a great W. You are doing so well.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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Roist - yes, there is GREAT music from that era! I did not mean to imply there was not. H gravitates to the depressing stuff though.

Some quirky/amusing happenings going on here. And then a setback for me.

We decorated the tree finally once I gave the ultimatum that if it wasn't done by x, I was going to decorate alone with the dog. In the end, the tree sat naked for 8 days!!!

H really does seem to have quite a teenage way about him. You know that netting that comes on the tree? Well, s13 got most of it off except for the top, where he couldn't reach. H decided to help by taking a broom handle and twisting up the remaining netting with the intent of yanking it off via the handle. After the broom handle seemed to fight with the netting, the broom won.

But then the netting was wrapped so tight around the handle! H started to cut the netting only to see it made a huge mess with shreds of netting all over. Solution? He left the netting tied around the handle and told me it made the broom festive. Oh, it was a sight to behold the whole process. Bizarre he could not "see" 5 steps ahead that this wasn't efficient. It really seems, at times, that he is re-learning some basic skills.

I went into the dorm room to discuss something kid related. H slipped up saying "hon" on several occasions. One time he apologized after saying "hon." A year ago I might have read something into. This year? I was looking at him like he was a glitchy iPhone.

Sunday he was so adult-like in the morning. He talked to the kids like a normal dad and his thinking was so rational. I listened and marveled. He's in there!

By the evening he seemed to spin back to anger and super dooper crankiness. We were decorating the tree and I won't even get into h's "strategy" for putting lights on the tree because it makes the net removal look wonderfully practical. Suffice it to say that h decided the lights should be put on without being lit?!? Of course the cord to the lights is as green as the tree so this was the absolute most difficult method to employ and it induced much crankiness in h.

At one point I was pulling out my ocean themed ornaments: glittery shells, a starfish, etc. I made quite a show of grabbing the crab and giving it to h and telling him to put THAT one on the tree. He did not spew. He settled.

He left me a post-it asking if I know how to access the password to the landline. I went over to the dorm room and said "nope." He told me he threw out the instructions. I said he could Google the manual. (This way h can check the vmail and determine exactly how many hang ups there were from telemarketers.)

Also pertaining to the landline, he mentioned s11 can use it to talk to friends. I was polite but kind of exasperated. I just couldn't take anymore. I told him it's 2016 and teens don't use landlines anymore. It's weird.

I had a few setbacks. H was showering and at an odd time like when he did in the height of replay. It just triggered me. He came out and I said "what time are you going out?" I was bristling and it was obvious. He said he wasn't and seemed surprised. Is it possible he doesn't remember all that? His showering down there at certain times brings me right back.

Also, I had a very PA comment on my part. We were talking about a certain religion and h mentioned info and it surprised me that he knew it. I said "wow, how did you know THAT?" (Probably his tanned up ow is that religion.). He said "Ohhh, I know ALL sorts of things." And I said (very PA tone): "ohhhhh, trust me, I KNOW you do." (It was a shot at all he showed me he knew in the letter.) Not proud. By the anger just jumped out of me.

He made a cameo appearance in my bedroom. He popped his head in last night with a real silly grin. I asked him what the grin was about. I was expecting him to make a jab about the size of my room: nope. He told me my room smelled "funky." Ok then.

He says goodnight almost every night now. For a while he would holler "good night boys!" Now he almost always says "good night everyone."


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Well, he certainly isn't baked up completely...that's for sure! He's bouncing back and forth from a teenager to adult, so maybe he's growing up just a wee bit.

As for the landline...does he really need a password to access the number of calls? Did he password it himself? If that's the case, the manual isn't going to give him the password.

As for remembering things, they will remember some of what they've said and done, but not all of it. You, on the other hand, will remember quite a bit of what he's said and done. Don't forget, you've not been asleep as long as he has, i.e., like Rip Van Winkle.

His good nights are reminding me of the Waltons! LOL!

Hang in there. It's going to be very interesting as you move along to the holiday.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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No, Job he is not baked up. In fact, he seems to be missing some key ingredients . . .


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Good night john boy. Good night Mary Ellen. Good night....... haha. I thought of that too. laugh

Don't dwell on those set backs. To me they seem minor. No harm from time to time for a little truth dart, though if delivered in strong PA they tend to lose the message and hear only the tone.

I hope funky is a good smell. cool


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
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Roist - excellent point about the tone being heard and not the message. It's just hard because lately, for some reason, I am feeling a lot of the triggers.

Speaking of which, early yesterday morning I went downstairs to make myself some tea. And there, on the counter was another letter, sealed with my name on it. It looked just like that letter he gave me last year.

I went to the dorm room and told him I did not want another one of his ridiculous letters. I told him if this was one of those this was his chance to take it back. He said he did not think it was something that would make me sad. I said let's discuss it. He said he would rather not as it was not something to discuss rather it was just something he wanted me to know and then he no longer wanted to talk about it again.

Ok. So I left and read the letter.

Remember his loser MLC friend? The one who hit on me and hits on ANY and every woman? Well, in the letter he tells me several things he has done to regain my dignity in this situation. He tells me he had done these things all along and never was telling me he was doing them. He says they weren't really too close of friends, etc.

Interesting. It reminded me of a teen who knows his parents disapprove of a friend. The parents badger on about it and the kids tells them to mind their own business. Then, the kid starts to grow up and becomes embarrassed by this "friend." So he starts to say he wasn't "really" that close with him. But it becomes clear that the kid cares what his parents think of him and his reputation.

I went and said thank you. I don't buy all of it obviously as, the old him, would would have told the guy outright to jump in the lake from day 1. But this conversation happened 20 months ago! It is clear he is concerned with what I think of him, which was the opposite 20 months ago.

Maybe he is starting to grow up a teeny bit . . .


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Phew! Boy, I can only imagine how your heart must have sunk when you first saw that envelope! Thank goodness it was nothing like the last one.

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I can't imagine how you felt when you saw that letter sitting on the counter. I'm sorry you triggered. It's an awful feeling.

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Gosh - a nicer letter, that's good. My heart sank when I read of a letter awaiting you. Interesting that he has been mulling things over. It is true that you can never really know what is going on in the 'ole MLC noggin.'

Hope you have a lovely weekend xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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Sotto's heart sank, while my entire being cringed. Glad it was nicer. When do you fly East?


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Hi Hawho. I'm glad you didn't get another nasty gram.... And I absolutely love how you approached him giving him an opportunity to behave differently. You rock!


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Good Morning HaWho. Just trying to catch up on your sitch. You have been at this a long time and have the patience of a saint. No sage words of wisdom to give. But I love your sense of humor. I want a copy of your book if you ever compile your tellings of H's crazy antics antics. I think you could have a long career of comedy writing - finding the humor in the worst situations.

Glad the letter was not bad news!


M:49 H:49
T:28 M:26
S24, D19, S15
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H living separately next to OW
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Hi all - thanks for the kind words. Bttrfly, I fly in on the 23rd. Sooo excited.

Even though this one was a nice letter, I am so over receiving letters. Next time he gives me any letter, I am going to give it back, unopened, and tell him I am no longer interested in being pen pals. (I remember a boy in middle school passing me notes that were folded into perfect triangles and I will tell h my last pen pal was waaaay more creative.) In fact? Maybe I should buy one of those "return to sender" stamps to boot.

I had tons of anger over this letter. It triggered me back to the worse letter but also to the fact that this letter was total BS. In it h wrote that he's been "restoring my honor" with sleeze bag guy for 3-4 years. A total lie. How do I know? I only told him about the issue with the guy 20 months ago. He became "friends" with him 3 years ago and looks like he's trying to justify all his time with him. Good luck with that one! How exactly was he "restoring my honor" by socializing heavily with a sleeve bag?!?

H accidentally sent me a text intended for his mother. It was a birthday wish. He added all sorts of cheerful icons - streamers and fireworks and signed it from "all of us." Keeping up that facade.

There is more PA behavior surfacing. He sent me a text about something to do with finances, erroneously blaming me for something. He sent it in the middle of the night. I heard him clanking around in the kitchen and knew something was up. He woke me up so I turned on my phone and he'd blown it up with 5 texts.

Mid - morning I went to the stinky room to discuss. I corrected his false info. He disputed it. I explained a few things. He looked away the whole time. So brave behind the screen, so cowardly in person.

I left to walk the dog. When I returned there were additional texts from him. All more nonsense. H was out but but S13 was on his phone talking to h on speaker. When they were done, I asked to talk to h.

I clarified two financial things he had texted to me, all while we were on speaker phone. He knew the kids could hear. I was polite but firm and quick. He just said ok. He sounded surprised and small. Let's see if he text spews. So far not. I see him trying to assert lots of control where he has no business doing so.

I was run down Friday. I had been upset with all these past triggers. I am sure I looked run down. H asked me what was wrong and I just said I wasn't feeling well. He ordered in. Later in the evening he passed the kids a box of tissues and asked them to bring it up to me. The next day, while out he texted me to ask if I was up for x and y.

His hair started to veer back into mullet land. Earlier in the week, s13 at dinner (!) said that x friend was laughing at his mullet. H said: "I have a mullet????" S13 said yes. S11 and s13 had a field day over it. A few hours later I inadvertently found myself starting at the mullet and h knew it.

A few days later he returned home with his hair the shortest it's been in a long while. (It looked good but I didn't say anything as maybe this would encourage him to grow it long again. I complemented last haircut and here it was longer again so time to try the opposite.) Saturday, in the car h told me he cut his hair. He said he is sans mullet. I said it looked good and he looked much younger. (I know THIS is the end goal for anyone in MLC).

As for me? I am tired. I need a break from him. I need a break from this.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}} cuz you need one and a def break xoxoxoxo more tomorrow as I'm falling asleep at the wheel here ...xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
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Look after yourself. Get some extra rest.

I know that feeling when you can't wait for some away time. It will do you good. Don't put all your eggs in that basket though. Take care of yourself and make the most of each day.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
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Get really worried when he grows a pony tail - that truly is the mark of a nob!


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ok, i'm 'refreshed' from what passes as a sleep filled night these days... grrrr .... is there any way you can get a day off from him? if not before your travels than while you are here? Can some kind soul in the family step in and give you some alone time? I sense you need to recharge your batteries babe. Honestly HaWho, I don't know how you do it?

Here's an odd notion: how about smudging your space with white sage? (you can buy it at whole foods) It always somehow makes me feel better? A reclaiming of space, as it were. Just a thought.

Alternatively, come over to the "After the Big D" forum to the scrabble party I'm having. Meet some new people. Hang out. Have some herbal tea.

sending {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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You know HaWho - I was thinking about something during my commute in this morning, and I wanted to run it by you because I thought you might relate.

As Catholics, marriage is a sacrament where the spouses learn about God by being truly intimate with one other person, vs Holy Orders, where those called learn about God by being of service to many. I've been thinking a lot lately about the sacramental aspect of marriage in general and my marriage in particular. I've asked myself was I truly intimate with this person? Was he truly intimate with me? Sifting through it all, the good, the bad, the ugly, I ask myself, "What is left? What is the core for me?" Despite it all, I love him still. It's painful to say as I don't see us having anything to do with each other beyond S. I don't think we will be friends, as some ex spouses are. Where does that leave it? I don't have any answers, but I know that I'm looking at the totality of who my husband is today, and I still love him.

It's not a romantic love. I know who he is at his core, underneath all the rage, sadness, depression. I'm sad that person is buried so deep. I've accepted that he is the only one who can dig himself out. I'm resigned that if he does dig himself out, I am in all likelihood not going to be there. This love I feel veers now more toward an unconditional love, where I expect nothing in return and don't need to express how I feel with words. It's more i think that it is expressed in deeds - like, I intend to support myself and close the wage gap between us to the best of my ability for myself, so that I'm not dependent, but also for him, as I don't want to be a financial burden on anyone, least of all someone who can't handle the stress.

People say, "But you are entitled to xyz" ... it's not about that. It's about being the best person I can be and in so doing, yes, he will get the benefit of that tangentially.

I feel that I'm not articulating this well and I apologize. Let me try again: essentially, because of the intimacy of the marital relationship, I feel that when I put my own reactions aside, what's left is love of an unconditional variety, which survives even if the marriage does not. Does any of this make sense??? I'm trying to work through it all and would love your thoughts on it, as we've talked about the Catholic aspect of it in the past and I value your opinion. Apologies for the hijack ... feel free to respond on my thread xoxoxoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Originally Posted By: Huddy
Get really worried when he grows a pony tail - that truly is the mark of a nob!


I actually giggled at this. Thanks Huddy grin

HaWho I'm sorry about the hoards of crazy you have to deal with, and hugs for dealing with the new letter so well.

Honey take care of yourself, you really deserve it xxx


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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Or
Originally Posted By: bttrfly

As Catholics, marriage is a sacrament where the spouses learn about God by being truly intimate with one other person, vs Holy Orders, where those called learn about God by being of service to many. I've been thinking a lot lately about the sacramental aspect of marriage in general and my marriage in particular. I've asked myself was I truly intimate with this person? Was he truly intimate with me? Sifting through it all, the good, the bad, the ugly, I ask myself, "What is left? What is the core for me?" Despite it all, I love him still. It's painful to say as I don't see us having anything to do with each other beyond S. I don't think we will be friends, as some ex spouses are. Where does that leave it? I don't have any answers, but I know that I'm looking at the totality of who my husband is today, and I still love him.



I am also a practicing Catholic and I wonder how my wife, who believes in every other sacrament of the Church holds no belief in the Marriage Sacrament. I questioned her once about it and she got mad and said that I called her a hypocrit. If the shoe fits.

Now answering your questions based on my situation I can say I tried to be fully intimate with her, but she was always reserved. Hence she wasn't truly open and intimate with me. Something always held her back. I was totally invested in my M, but I guess since she is out of the house and filed I can say that she wasn't. I wouldn't trade my kids or my M, but in a way I feel short changed by her a bit. Just a weird feeling.


Me 49 W46
T25 M22
S22 D18 S13
W had EA Apr-Jul 2016
Dropped Bomb 7/9/16
ILYBINILWYA
HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17
Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
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I'm not a practicing Catholic now, but I was raised Catholic and got married in the church. I truly believed in the vows.

However - my ex was unfaithful and I did everything possible to save my marriage. We did reconcile for a few years until he hit 50 and was off again in a cloud of MLC.

My feeling about it is, I DID keep my vows, and I did everything possible to keep the marriage together. Once he officially divorced me, I felt my obligation no longer extended to remaining sexually faithful. (This was, however, after almost ten years of dealing with his MLC issues and the marriage, so I felt confident that I wasn't giving up too soon. I might have felt differently if ours had been one of those speedy divorces that happen.)

Now he's remarried and I've moved on as well. However, I DO still feel some sense of obligation towards him. I don't interact with him any more than the bare minimum required for dealing with our grown kids. However, I do care what happens to him, I do send him occasional (rare) medical advice when I think it's something important he won't get from his regular doctors, and I suppose, if he fell into some terrible state of need, I would still feel it was my duty to provide care.

I remember a woman I knew casually when my kids were in school. I don't know any of the details, but she was nursing her ex-husband through a terminal illness. I remember thinking at the time how hard that must be. However, I think that if it came to that, I could do that for my ex EVEN THOUGH he has been a jerk to me, because that would be a fulfillment of those vows that I took so seriously.

Would my ex do the same for me? Not in a million years. Would I ever take my ex back? Absolutely not! But do I feel that unconditional - not love, but perhaps care - for my ex? Yes.

I think THAT is sufficient fulfillment of my vows. I don't think God means for us LBSs to live a celibate life while our ex's go off to a new life. I feel the vows may extend, though, to making our genuine effort to save the marriage, and to extending that care if needed in an emergency later in their lives.

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HW, I keep on your posts and want to say you are doing so great with responding to his texts with human contact!! My H also feels safe behind that phone. I am really proud of you! For some reason, I imagine a really surprised look on his face when you do that? Lol. Good job smile


Me 48 H 46 S 11
M 2004
BD 8/13
H moved out 2/15
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^^^ funny you say that M, that's my visual too!!! Hubs texts Ha, Ha pops her head in and answers face to face, Hubs jumps a mile and blinks in a confused way, like "what is this new mode of communication that doesn't include technology???"

HW great job on that as M said. I know I don't have a tenth of your patience!! xoxoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Just caught up on the most recent posts. Love how the conversation starte with MLC hairstyles and then swings to deep theological conversations about commitment.

First, thanks to Bttrfly, Roist, Huddy, Esame, SBJ, KML and Mleigh for the posts.

Regarding hairstyle, maybe I should give h a scrunchy in his stocking and tell him: just in case you decide to go from mullet to man bun.

As for your questions Bttrfly, I understand what you mean. I read what KML wrote about the woman who nursed her ex and thought "whoa!! Not sure I have that in me." Thinking about it all, I guess what I learned is I have no idea what I am capable of until the moment comes. I don't mean to sound glib. But, looking back on certain things that have happened in my life these last 6 years, I have faced things I never thought would touch my life. And those things have re-shaped me. So I know more will happen to me and I will continue to reconfigure who I am.

Mleigh and Bttrfly, that is exactly how h looks when I confront him. The weirdest part? When texting first started to take place h vowed he's never fully take that form on as he felt we would all lose our way. And indeed, sometimes, I look at all the ways we can communicate with emojicons and I think: oh, we're going to be back to communicating via pictographs!

I find myself in this strange place right now. H's last PA text just really rubbed me raw. The best way to describe it is I feel like I'm winterizing a house. "Ok, this portion of the house is useless, shut down the plumbing and turn down the electricity so that the house has just enough heat so the pipes don't freeze. It just feels like I dropped to another level of bare bones.

It's the 1,2 punch of the most recent letter and the PA text. I felt myself thinking that there comes a point of no return. And though I have been polite I do feel myself letting go even further. It's kind of not so much letting go as it is "I totally don't deserve this."

Yesterday, I was in my room w s11 who he was at my desk. I was listening to something on my phone w/headphones in. H came up and talked to s11 from the hallway. Then he came in. Big progress for him I am sure. I probably should have taken off my headphones and been more gracious. But I didn't. I just didn't care. He stayed at least a minute. Huge for him.

Is it because he can sense my vibe? Is it because I've been going in his room more to address his PA texts?


Last edited by job; 12/13/16 02:03 PM. Reason: edited posting per poster's request

Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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No you don't deserve this. But this is just a phase youhave to go through.The other side is a better life for you. This is not as good as it gets. But you have been v patient. Job will say dig for more. Not to thread on her shoes, I will not say that. Instead I wonder how you intend to profit from your new " I don't give a d@mn" mentality?

Best wishes

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HaWho,

Having a MLCer living at home is a nightmare at its finest. They are in your face all of the time you are at home. Your h is on the rollercoaster and the holidays aren't helping either of you. When are you leaving to visit your family? Is he still going?

Your new mentality of not caring about him and his behaviors, etc., tells me that you've dropped the rope a bit more and hopefully aren't reacting to all of his nonsense. So, what are you going to do w/this new found freedom of thinking?

As I have pointed out to many before, you will know when you've had enough. I hope and pray that the new year will be a far better one for you and your family.

BTW, is the tree up yet?

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Yes, Job the tree is up. He put it in the entryway hall this year. And it looks nice there. No tree in his room this year. He bought a few decorations for the house though.

And yes, he's coming back east, too. But, the boys and I are staying on for several days without him.

Roist and Job, excellent question - what do I plan to do? Roist phrased it as my Scarlet O' Hara "frankly my dear, I don't give a d@mn speech" and Job framed it as a new found free way of thinking. And it is both.

One thing that is changing (and this is awful) is that I don't bother giving him much of my energy at all. There's no point. He is too crazy. He still locks his door against us and presents much paranoia. I feel it's all too nuts for him to stage a comeback. And even if he woke up this instant I am just not sure what is to be said at this point. He has accused me of trying to kill him!!!

Just letting that sink in for a bit.

Besides putting more distance between us, I am not sure what to do. As I said, it's so much more complicated than "I just need him to wake up."

In some ways I feel squeezed. Him waking up does not fix things. Him saying sorry and working on it does not fix things. I don't see a friendship with him as he is a complete weirdo. So what am I still here for, then? I don't want to share/split my kids so I feel stuck. I have zero interest in another man although I am lonely living in the house as the only adult.

I guess for now I just find more ways of making myself happy.

Get a load of this. Last year I told h to do his own shopping for his family. This year he is buying everyone the same exact gift! It's an electronic gadget. So 6 people will open the exact same thing!! (I think most of them already have one, to boot.) Can't wait to see the jokes flying when they see the pattern. His family has a merciless sense of humor. Barbs will fly. I may join in: hey, how come I didn't get one?!?

However, with his kids, looks like he's gotten the memo as he is asking them what they want.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Just to clarify, Job, one tree is in the living room and his fake "all seasons" tree is in the foyer.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Hi HaWho
Thanks for your post to my sitch. We must of been writing at the same time .

I appreciate your concern for my D14 :-)
With all that you have going on.

I believe your compliment to me about being a tank is just you projecting :-)
Because you are a strong woman dealing with your day to day.

Hugs to you. Keep your humour it is a strength

Irish


M51
XW43 (38 at bd)
BD1 MAY 30 2015
BD2 JUNE 25 2015 by text
moved out Aug 2 2015
left both Daughters 13 and 15 (now 18-20)
Her divorce Final July 26 2016
Last time she saw her kids Aug 2 2015
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When he wakes up and does the necessary you can decide then how you feel.Right now that is academic as he is not there.It is normal you don't feel like you want him back. You have been through a lot. But the H that will want back in won't be the same boy that hides in the cubcave!! He will be different.You will too. So decide on that when you need to.

Are you squeezing any fun into your days into the buildup to Christmas?

Thanks for dropping by my thread.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
Still together
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Ha. Had some conversation today with stbxh. Even though the conversation wasn't ugly, I now have a nagging headache that's growing.

How the he double hockey sticks do you live with yours????

My God.

I just couldn't right now.

God love ya.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Roist - thanks for the post. I appreciate your positive thoughts.

Bttrfly - I just posted onto your thread. I think other people's situations often seem crazier than our own? You amaze me!!

So, what is new over here? A touch more paranoia surfacing. A few weeks ago h said he was going to leave me some cash on the counter to pay for a repair. Except he never left it. So then he saw the charge for the bill and asked by I didn't pay w/cash. Umm. Because you never left the cash! He said I was trying to pull a fast one, all via text. I went to his room and told him he never left it for me. Then I said: "can't you just look at the money you last withdrew and see if that amount is missing?" He made no eye contact but told me from now on anytime he had to give me cash he'd hand it to me directly.

Whatever. The crazy train rolls on.

I was doing some Xmas shopping for the kids. H saw the charges and sent me a text saying I was a shopping addict! His m actually IS a shopping addict so I know whence this projection comes! She used to buy so many presents, you couldn't even see the tree!!

I went to him and told him exactly what the budget was for presents. He did his bit where he looked away and meekly said ok. (I cannot believe the contrast between who he is via text vs. who he is in-person.)

He initiated a few jokes via text. I barbed back but things have shifted within me. I can feel it.

He tried to pick a fight over the weekend. It's something that would have worked months ago. He is going to visit a friend and his wife when we go back east. The wife invited me and my sister-in-law, as my BIL will be there, too. H said none of the gals were sure they were coming. Then he asked if I wanted to go. I said, nah, you go get your guy time. He said he would get it regardless of whether I was there or not. I said, well, it doesn't sound like the gals are even sure they're going. He spewed in a sputtering way. He huffed and said I was difficult to communicate with!

I was polite and said: let's see how it shakes out. (Like I want to be THAT woman that goes and crashes a guy hang out???)

A few hours later he texted me asking if he can bring me and the kids lunch. I declined but the kids wanted some. When he came home he insisted I eat some, too. Maybe this is how he makes himself feel better for snapping at me?

Yesterday he came into the kitchen and boisterously said: "boy are YOU a lucky lady." Me (verrrry flat): "oh yeah? Any why is that?" Him: "because I bought you the best Christmas gift." Me: silence.

It's so odd that he thinks what I want would come in a neatly wrapped box.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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HaWho, I agree with roist. It's not this h that you'd want back.
Every time I'm about to give up I remind myself of it. For me, it's the second time he is in MLC crazy and though the first time it was much lighter than now, it was unbelievable how different he was once we started to work on marriage again. & how ashamed he was of things he said before. & a lot of what he said he didn't even remember...

It's much more difficult for you when you have a live in MLCer. I hope you'll be able to get some time w/o him during holidays & recharge your batteries. You're a saint to be able to go through all this on daily basis & with such grace!

I'm curious to know what is the best present for lucky lady... can't be another landline...


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Ummmm....girl? You need to figure out what you want.
If you're hanging in there in the hope of ultimately reconciling - you can't keep ignoring his positive attempts.

Remember the dog training adage - ignore the bad behaviors, reward the good ones?

I see three separate attempts in a row on his part to connect with you, and you rejected each one.

Quote:
H said none of the gals were sure they were coming. Then he asked if I wanted to go. I said, nah, you go get your guy time. He said he would get it regardless of whether I was there or not. I said, well, it doesn't sound like the gals are even sure they're going. He spewed in a sputtering way. He huffed and said I was difficult to communicate with!


You were not understanding that he WANTED you to be there. In this case you WERE difficult to communicate with. Don't be so dense.

Quote:
A few hours later he texted me asking if he can bring me and the kids lunch. I declined but the kids wanted some. When he came home he insisted I eat some, too. Maybe this is how he makes himself feel better for snapping at me?


If he wants to do something for you, LET HIM. Clearly acts of service is one of the love languages he expresses, don't discourage it. (Btw, if he expresses Acts of Service, it usually means that he like to RECEIVE Words of Affirmation. Try to work some positive compliments in there where you can.)

Quote:
Yesterday he came into the kitchen and boisterously said: "boy are YOU a lucky lady." Me (verrrry flat): "oh yeah? Any why is that?" Him: "because I bought you the best Christmas gift." Me: silence.


He's getting you a nice present (or, at least, what HE thinks is a nice present. Hopefully not a rotary phone.) I recommend, if you want to save your marriage, making sure you have a nice present for him also. And whatever he gives you, give him a lot of positive words of affirmation (as in, "oh honey, how did you KNOW that I really wanted my own landline with a hot pink rotary phone?")

Seriously, though - if you're done, then fine. But if you're committed to standing and still hope for reconciliation, you have to stop bashing him every time he makes an attempt, no matter how feeble. Encourage the good behaviors.

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You are right, KML. I see his efforts now that they are spelled out for me.

I just need a break. I want a few days off w/out him. Yes, it's effort on his part but it's also a WHOLE lotta crazy. I recognize that I am burned out. Logically, it makes sense to reward the good behavior. But it's hard to compartmentalize it given crazy is waiting.

KML - I am curious; did your h live at home during his MLC? Or did he cut and run?


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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I love the post from klm. It makes sense. It is also about focus.You are overwhelmed by the craziness and poor behavior. That is understandable. But focusing on it helps neither your situation nor you.

Your H is reaching out to you also by letter and of course by texting. wink

I can't wait to hear what the best gift ever is!! But even if it isn't perfect have a nice reaction to: t or at least not negative. Maybe you will even like it.

I understand you craving some "off" time. So make it happen. Make some plans without H.

Best wishes


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
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Next R chat Aug'17
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hit and run here as I'm running late - will post more later, but have to join in on the Christmas gift guessing game. Here are my guesses:

1. A powder blue princess phone, rotary dial, with the 4 prong plug

2. Your very own year -round Celebration tree for your room with various themed decorations for the various holidays through out the calendar year

3. Your guide to the emoji encyclopedia to take texting to the next level. Heart eyes highlighted.

4. (And this one is the winner) all his love, expressed however awkwardly, because it seems he really is trying (yes, your patience. He's trying your patience. But he's also trying to communicate with you as best he can)

Mwah.
Be back in a bit xoxoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

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A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
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Hi HaWho! It is hard to see the gestures when they come between all the crazy. I never know if my H is being genuine or if it's guilt. Plus putting too much stock in them raises expectations.

I will keep stalking your thread to find out what he gave you. Could it be the same electronic gadget he is getting his other family members? I guess you'll know if it's the same size. Lol!

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Hi HaWho - I too am keen to find out what the present is..maybe your very own extension for your room??

Seriously though - I do think KML is spot on with her posting. And I think of those questions - do I want to be right or happy? Does this get me closer to my goal.

So, when he makes some kind of effort to connect, he gets a negative reaction, due to previous stuff that happened...I do think your reaction is yours to own and work on.

I can understand of course, and I watch in admiration as I can not imagine living with someone going through all of this. So, please read my post with that in mind too.

I think greater detachment would help. It is your own hurt about previous stuff - ie: expectations of yours that were not met etc - that is leading to your current reaction. But of course, if you can have no...or very low expectations, the hurt may be less...and your reaction more positive...etc..

Just my thoughts on reading your post and the replies anyway. Do take some time to relax and regroup over Xmas.

Xx


T 13 M 7
Me 48 H 46
SS 15
BD 7.14 PA
D final 5.16 (H filed)

We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
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HaWho,

I wanted to swing by here and offer up some additional thoughts to Ellie's laser-sharp observations. Here's another thing to keep in mind when dealing with your MLCer who is fluctuating between boy-man is that he's really tentative when putting himself "out there" in terms of opening up in HIS OWN way. I deeply suspect that he's terrified of being rejected by you as evidenced by the numerous re-created scenarios from his childhood.

Try sprinkling some 180s in this regard and monitor H's reactions for they will reveal where he currently is at this point in the MLC journey from the emotional standpoint.

I would suggest that you try and implement this specific 180 during your trip out East because being around family is a perfect hypothesis to base off this experiment. I'd be willing to bet that you'll be fairly surprised at the results.

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Oh and my vote is that you just might get a landline phone that looks like Snow White! blush

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Quote:
KML - I am curious; did your h live at home during his MLC? Or did he cut and run?


Round one of MLC, he lived at home. He had a short-lived affair with a traveling nurse who thankfully transferred back out of town around the time that we reconciled. He was never out of the bedroom. There were some typically strange MLC behaviors, including forgetfulness and paranoia/projection (going through MY phone to see if I was doing anything, lolol). He even went so far as to put a deposit down on an apartment,but he snapped out of it pretty quickly with the help of some antidepressants and serious DBing on my part.

Things were actually quite good for a few years, then after several more concussions and his approaching 50th birthday he got back into gloomy MLC territory. (He had long since decided he didn't need the antidepressants, and when I suggested he restart them, he insisted that he wasn't depressed, I was the problem.) He announced right after his last two concussions (2 weeks apart) that he wanted a divorce. I got him to go back to marriage counseling (pretty useless, just a place for him to project all his negativity onto me) and after just a couple of months he wanted to move out. I made him stay through the holidays so that the kids wouldn't always associated Xmas with their dad moving out.

Once he left, I began to realize it was kinda NICE not walking on eggshells around him. And when he announced he was filing a couple of months later, I let go and was done. It had been ten long years of fighting for this marriage and doing most of the work and I was finished. I promptly started dating another man and had a delicious sexy long distance relationship with a man who I saw once a month - he restored my battered sense of self.

Ex never made any moves to try to reconcile after he moved out, although I know he went through a bad depressive period for a while. (He's an extrovert and living alone for the first time in his life must have been quite a shock). He had been flirting with several women prior to moving out, and he dated a woman for a while that I suspect he had had some hanky panky with, or at least flirtation, in the previous year or two. That only lasted a few months (I gather he didn't enjoy being a step-parent to a younger child), then shortly after they broke up he began dating the woman/girl who eventually became his second wife. As much as he felt he had missed out on the single dating life in his 20's, he actually dated very little after the divorce - I think he hated being single.

The truth is, in retrospect, that while we had many good years in the marriage, he was never quite all in. It's only years later and through the insights of a good mutual friend that I came to see the narcissistic traits he has and understand how that affected our marriage even before all of his concussions. I was probably quite good for him and I doubt he could have lasted as long (26 years) with someone else. I try to remind myself of the good and figure I got as many good years out of him as anyone could.

Now, several years after our divorce, I still see some memory issues and somewhat erratic behavior on his part, some of which I think is the legacy of his 6 concussions (who knows, he may have had more since he left that I don't know about). I hope his young new wife will care for him in his old age if he develops chronic traumatic encephalopathy like the football players.

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Well, I sure am glad to offer up comedic fodder for all you guys! Hmm, I was thinking the gift would be one of those 200 sq. foot free standing houses (for himself!) in the backyard.

As for the advice, I hear you all. I do. And I know you are all right. I need to implement those strategies KML. Wonka, I will try that experiment when with family. Roist, you are spot on--very perceptive advice. Hi Fighton-we open presents tonight as we'll be out of town for XMAS so the BIG reveal is coming your way! Bttrfly, had a good laugh at the list of possibilities: thanks for those. Sotto, yep. My reaction is mine to own.

Speaking of which, off to the mirror to practice for the big gift reveal. Would a princess dress and a twirl followed by a swoon be over the top? Nah!!!


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Originally Posted By: HaWho

Bttrfly, had a good laugh at the list of possibilities: thanks for those. Sotto, yep. My reaction is mine to own.

Speaking of which, off to the mirror to practice for the big gift reveal. Would a princess dress and a twirl followed by a swoon be over the top? Nah!!!


Good honey, that was what I was aiming for ... you needed a good laugh. Things were getting too serious ...

love you and sending massive hugs your way !!
xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Ellie,

Good Lord...6---SIX---concussions?! How, when and where did XH get them? To me, that's a lot for one "average" person who is/was not a pro football player in the NFL.

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1) Snowboarding - no loss of consciousness but two minutes double vision, one month forgetfulness.
2) Fall on ice, minor
3) Fall skiing, minor
4) Surfing, hit in head with surfboard, ruptured eardrum, cracked molar
5) Surfing, hit in face with board, 5 inch cheek laceration.
6) Two weeks later, biking against my advice (his stupid ER doc friend told him it was okay) - slid and fell wearing helmet, couldn't remember previous two weeks until 30 minutes later in ER

These were spread over a ten year span. Once you've had one concussion, it takes less of a hit to get another.

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Ellie that's dreadful! xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
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Yeah, it's a bummer. Not much was known about concussion back then. To be fair it didn't change his personality from before, just made the bad parts worse. And I honestly don't know how much of his current behavior is affected by brain injury, but I try to maintain a generous attitude that the most clueless behavior may be early signs of brain damage.

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Oh ....and he was recently diagnosed with an old fracture of a vertebrae in his neck; no telling when that happened.

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Well.....


Was it a matching his and hers letter writing kit?

wink


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
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Geez KML - that is an awful lot of injuries. And as for the whole rest of the story, you really are to be admired for standing through all that. One of the best things about having you here, still posting, is that in addition to your great advice, you have remained very positive about life. It's good for all of us to see that. Of all that you wrote about what you stood through, that was my takeaway: you can remain positive. It's possible. Thank you for all your advice and the time you give here.

Roist - matching writing sets, too funny! (Don't give him any ideas.)

So, he did a good job. He had a gift for me from Santa. It was some shopping spree cash. It's most noteworthy in that it's how he used to be. In MLC, he has been so stingy, it's been awful to watch. (I don't necessarily "need" him to be as generous as he was but I definitely find it hard to be with an un-generous person.)

I genuinely thanked him.

Then he had a gift that was from him. It was a beautiful and unique Christmas decoration, a music box, really. I hugged him and said thanks. I love it. It's the sort of thing I would love. (The hug felt awkward. He seemed uncomfortable overall throughout the night.)

He seemed to like my gift. It was something personally sentimental to him. Nothing to do with us. He looked at it a long while and I think he was tearing up a bit. There was emotion in his eyes. I think he might have been looking down at it to fight the tears back.

Another noteworthy thing? At the end of the night h mentioned he is meeting up with his pre-MLC friend. This is the one that h dropped for no good reason. The guy was a good friend to him and did not deserve that treatment. They have not spoken for 2 1/2 years. H said the friend had reached out to him a few times. Not sure if that's how it all unfolded. But, I hope they can patch it up. They had been friends for 10 good years.

Thanks again everyone for the support and advice. I appreciate all your time.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Merry Christmas Ha! xoxoxoxo
sounds beautiful oxoxo hope your travels were safe and uneventful xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Merry Christmas HaWho xoxo


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BD1 MAY 30 2015
BD2 JUNE 25 2015 by text
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left both Daughters 13 and 15 (now 18-20)
Her divorce Final July 26 2016
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HaWho,

I'm very glad you got a nice present from your h this year. The music box sounds very nice and one that you can treasure for a long time. He actually put some thought into what he was getting you this year. That's a first in a long time.

I'm also glad he's going to meet up w/an old friend this holiday season. Maybe he's starting to grow up a bit and has come to realize some of his behavior towards others hasn't been the best. Whatever the reason, I glad he's going to make the effort to reconnect w/him.

HaWho, I hope your visit back home is a happy and memorable one. I hope that you get to see a number of your family members that you don't generally see, as well as some old friends.

Merry Christmas. Travel safely!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Just a quick pop - in to say Merry Christmas to you all! I truly am so blessed to have found this place and this group of people. I think of you and your situations often. You are all in my prayers.

Look out 2017; we're coming back bigger and better than ever!!!!


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Thanks Bttrfly, Irish and Job.

Well, spending the last days with h in the real world offers up quite a glimpse into his reality. There is so much I could write. I see moments where he is quite overwhelmed, stuck in past stories, still confused (especially finding places in the car even though he grew up here!!), sometimes like his old self and even a few touch-n-goes of the physical nature. I'll try to pick a few highlights.

We went to h's Great Grandmother's grave for the first time. She passed away in the spring and we didn't attend the funeral. She adored my h and was one of the few positive female role models in his life.

H had found out the section of the cemetery she was buried. We had a number and a section name. But it is an old New England cemetery and the numbers and even the section jumps all around. After a bit of driving, I gently suggested we ask the office for assistance. H said no. He decided to go with the boys and just start walking around to find her grave. I tried to reason with him as this is not one of those cemeteries where the graves are in neat rows. In fact, part of your "section" could be 400 feet over there under some random tree. Nope. He was going to walk and find her. There is a break in logical thinking there.

Meanwhile I decided to drive to the office and ask for help. I returned a few minutes later and could see h had already passed by where she was laid to rest.

I know this was all hard for him on some many levels, particularly the mortality issue. We gave him a hug and he often expressed his shock that she was gone.

Job, know how they take odd things? I saw h take some dirt from her burial area.

We went to a family member's house and she had laid out some sentimental photos of our kids and even one of us when we were dating. H glommed on to a photo of this place he lived in during his upper 20's. He took the photo and it was the only one he spoke fondly of, too. He reminisced about that photo only.

He wanted to drive through his old neighborhood. And he re-lived who lived where, etc. He really seems to be stuck in the past. I am not sure he's made any new memories while here.

Wonka, thanks for the heads up on watching his return to his family. At Christmas h gave him mother a gift. He watched her open it. She was quite frigid in her response and my heart broke for him. I could see he so wanted to please her.

Later in the night he tried to show her a recent injury he's had. And it really did seem like he was about a pre-teen aged boy. He wanted her to fuss over him. She did not. She went through the motions of saying the right things but there's a coldness there.

He talked about her coldness. He said his whole life all she did was cook meals and do his laundry. There was no deeper relationship. I validated and listened and my heart broke for him as a mother myself. I do think one of the key triggers for him was to see me loving my boys in a proper fashion. And on several occasions he has called me cold, too. I know it's projection because I am far from cold. No one who knows me would describe me as such.

Job he no longer clings to the edge of the bed when sleeping with me. Xmas morning I was rolling over and he lifted his arm for me to rest on it. I saw it but thought he was merely stretching so I missed the opportunity. He sighed and poked my hip (for me to turn around) and lifted his arm again. We talked like that for a bit.

It's frightening how simultaneously comfortable and uncomfortable that was.

He asked me to sit next to him at my family's dinner. And he had other such small reach out moments. Probably all due to the holidays.

And here's a few hilarious tid bits. I saw h had written a song titled "Ballad for ___". And in the space were three initial I did not recognize. I assumed it was for a woman. Well, his best friend came over and long story short, the song was for his friend's 13 year old daughter!!! So, do refrain from mind reading.

I told him it was a nice song when I found out it was for the girl. He said he had sent it to me. I told him he had not. He said he had. I joked that maybe he'd sent it to another woman. He became indignant and said no, emphatically. (I checked and he never sent it to me. I like to make sure I am not losing my mind in all this.)

He's snapped at me once. Still gets very cranky out of nowhere.

He told me he had lunch with that old friend and the friend now looked very old. H said the friend aged in the year he had not seen him. I said "year you haven't seen him?!? Try THREE!" H of course was not aware he ditched this guy almost three years ago.

Sorry for the über long post.

Special thanks to all of you who have helped me on this journey. You all know who you are . . .


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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HaWho,

You've had quite the vacation. You've been able to look from the outside into a window of a family that doesn't have much love, affection and affirmation. You now have a better understand of some of your h's projections. It's very sad that to watch "Tiny Tim's" mother be cold towards her son.

Did he put the dirt in something to carry back home? Some people will take dirt from the graves to remember the pour souls that lie beneath the ground.

As for his friend...three years can "age" a person. I'm glad all of you had a good time and I'm also glad your h reconnected w/his friend.

HaWho, you earned your halo and wings. You now have a better understanding of what he's experiencing. It's very sad, but hopefully revisiting those old memories will help in.

Travel safely!

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HW, it sounds like the holidays are going pretty well and I am so glad to hear that. Enjoy and safe travels smile


Me 48 H 46 S 11
M 2004
BD 8/13
H moved out 2/15
-live in the present, enjoy the beauty around and within you, explore your new future-
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HaWho, it looks like you had a pretty decent holidays! Considering the MLC stuff, LOL. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your experience. You have a close view of an MLC with your H. It truly helps to understand what they really go through. I'm sure I could make some of the observations now with my H, that I'm aware of the whole MLC deal, LOL. Both of his parents are deceased now, so I'm guessing he had to deal with whatever unresolved issues some other way. I just hope he will have it figured out and make peace with his parents in his mind. It just so fascinating to me to observe people going through this unresolved issues in such a way that they don't realize they hurt their families in the process. I think I had a brief moment of MLC myself, but I knew to snap out of it before I destroyed my M. Even though, I think it did have an effect a few years later... as my H remembered that, and said that we should have ended the M back then...

I hope your travel back home is very smooth and you have a great New Years!


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HaWho, you're Christmas sounds very insightful. On the whole it sounded like it went well. Your H really does sound like he is trying to work through...a LOT. Just keep your eyes open and find those ways to validate his efforts. Back to KML's post; sometimes we miss those moments to catch them being "good". It made me realize that, in my own efforts to prove that I don't need anyone and can do it all myself, I often miss the fact that my XH enjoys AOS. And that I should offer WOA. This is a tough thing for some of us independent gals to remember. We need to allow those "boys" to feel like men, and men (are expected to) take care of women (to feel manly). Everyone likes to feel needed. So much more to learn...


M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

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Happy new year HaWho!


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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Happy 2017 all!

Job - he eventually put the dirt in a ziplock.

Hi Mleigh, Bright, Ciluzen and Esame!

Well, I am back home after a wonderful break. I did not realize how much I needed that time away sans MLC in my life. While at my sister's I slept so well and in so doing, discovered I do not sleep nearly as well in my own home.

We took walks in the woods with family and my sister's dog. We had a snowy day and the kids had a taste of my childhood. And we finished a 1000 piece puzzle; plus we played a few board games. It was a quintessential rural New England school break.

My last morning there, I woke up after a very vivid dream. In the dream I met a woman who told me my h had given a necklace to her friend. The dream was so detailed, I even learned the name of the OW. Odd. Even odder? After waking up I felt nothing. I felt neither a tinge of jealousy nor anger. Mostly I just felt intrigued by the certainty of the dream.

While we were away h was back to calling the kids in the morning and evenings. A few times he even called me directly. Up to this point he called on s's cell phone.

When we returned home h had my favorite meal from a restaurant waiting for me and had ordered the kids dinner. I praised and validated. It was thoughtful

New Year's Eve day h peeked out as an adult father but past issues surfaced as well. S13 wanted to go to a friend's house where no adults would be home. S said it would be just him and the friend. I said they could come to our house as that sounded a bit lonely for New Year's. The boy's parents are divorced. I don't know the boy well, but he was over here once for about 20 hours (and slept over) and no adult ever called me. I have yet to meet or talk to one of his parents.

S13 was very mad and wanted to go there. I said no as they are only 13! H backed me up. That was very nice. H reaffirmed my view that it was not right to be there unsupervised all night with no adult present. Crazy!!! Later I found out this boy had 7 or 8 thirteen year old boys & girls over with no adult around. (No wonder they did not want to come here.)

I explained to s13 that, as these parents are divorced, they each only see their son 50% of the time and there is evidence that he is quite unsupervised and left alone a lot considering each parent only takes 50% on. I told him I want to meet the parents. After that s was in a huff all night. Oh well.

The conversation must have pinged a memory for h. H chimed in about a painful New Year's Eve he had as a kid where he was inappropriately alone all night. He told it all in front of the kids. I validated. It is wildly inappropriate that he was that young and alone. There are so many hurts surfacing. I question if there is a bottom to this.

Coming back I just cannot believe he is almost 50 and dealing with all this. As more and more childhood issues bubble to the surface I marvel at the degree to which he buried all this and at the level of dysfunction. (Being back and seeing my MIL I found I could never see her the same way again.)

He spent most of the day in his room. He is sick again. He is sick a lot lately. He did come out to watch a movie with us but returned to his room before the end.

He popped out to say Happy New Year.

And now in to 2017 . . .


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Happy New Year, HaWho! It's really impressive to see your level of detachment. I marvel at your ability to sit back in observer mode and see what's really going on around you.

Im glad your H backed you up with the teen party. Ya never know what 13 year olds can get in to!

Wishing you a peaceful year!!! Xoxo


Me- 30's H- 40's
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I am glad you arrived back home safely. I am also glad you had a nice time away. You don't realize until you are away for a bit just how stressful life was/is.

I don't blame you for wanting to meet the parents of that kid. I think you were wise in stating that he could come over to your home. Leaving children at home, unsupervised, especially NYE isn't good. They can get into all sorts of stuff. Your s will just have to get over himself and one day, he'll be glad you insisted that he be at home where you knew he was safe and sound.

Your h has a lot of childhood issues bubbling up. The trip back east helped w/releasing some of that stuff...continue to list and validate (as you have been doing). I think that in the days ahead, you will hear more and more about his childhood. I think it did him a world of good to go back there and revisit the area.

Happy New Year to you and your family!


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Thanks Pax and Job. I felt no torment whatsoever in telling s13 he couldn't go that friend's house. In fact, later in the evening, s13 opened a Snapchat from that boy. I saw it from over his shoulder. It was a pic of that boy lounging in a bed with a 13 year old girl. Lovely. So, I am amping up my efforts to talk to s13 about different parenting styles and what it really all means longterm.

S13 quipped "thanks for making Dec. 31 the worst day of the year." Eh, I am so calloused at this point. I laughed and said "hey, it's a new year tomorrow. That gives me 365 opportunities to top myself." He failed to see the humor.

So, here's a first. Anger surfaced again and in that short circuit sort of way. This is not the unusual part as I have certainly seen the anger throughout. However, what is different is that the anger even surprised him.

My h despises swearing. He always had. His mother on the other hand was quite vulgar in her language. He especailly found it distateful when women swore and I am sure this was the root. He always said he couldn't stand her language.

So we had a repairman over the other day. H had put the dog in the backyard. But he also put the dog's new bed out there and in a wet part of the pavement.

I was exasperated as the bed is new and who wants a dog lying on a wet bed? So I started to ask why the bed was in a pool of water. H told me that is where the bed belongs?!?!? I start to lose patience and tell him it's a new bed and does not belong there. I am not yelling but I am frustrated as it is SO stupid.

He gets all fidgety and suddenly says "shut the f#ck up!"

And I am not sure which of us is more surprised. He seems confused. I can tell he knows it's way off base. Then he gives a gasp and scurries out of the room. The rest of the day he is over the top nice but out of sorts. I did not bother saying anything as it was obvious to him that it was bizarre. And so wrong.

The very day before he had been talking about his mother's swearing.

Today the boys and I are pretty sick. We caught what my neice had. It's a brutal headache, like my head is in a vise-grip. And there's a heaviness in our chests. H has been clucking over us like a hen. I think it's guilt over dropping the F bomb. He never swears.

A few days ago, when we returned home from visiting family, I mentioned that it's time to put the Xmas stuff away and how sad it is. I tried a slow ease approach to prepare h for all this given his bizarre reaction last year. (For those who are new, he told me we should leave the tree up through February!)

H's response: there is nothing wrong with leaving it all up until July. And he is serious.

??????????????

And now I remember tht he DID leave the fake holiday tree up until almost the 4th of July. If he ever wakes up I really want to probe on the logic of all this.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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I'm sorry that you and your boys are sick. I hope it's not that nasty bug going around that lingers for weeks on end. If you don't see any improvement in a couple of days...then trot yourselves off to the doctor for antibiotics. It's the only thing that will kill the germ.

As for the swearing...I'm sure you both were very surprised as to what came out of his mouth. He's been very cautious during his anger periods and this time it slipped out. It happens and hopefully it won't happen again. He was very frustrated about the entire conversation about the dog's bed.

As for the Christmas stuff...not surprised about the July response. LOL! He does love the decorations and maybe they remind him of happier times...but I know you'll be taking them down once you feel better.

I wanted to just say that your advice to others has been spot on. You've been giving excellent advice to others. Thank you!

Feel better soon!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thanks Job for all the kind words. I appreciate the compliment, too.

Well, more childhood issues surfacing. H asked s11 and I to go out with him. Out of nowhere h started to tell more about his childhood.

I listenend and validated. But it was painful to listen to it. My stomach was in knots and honestly, I felt stressed out hearing it all. I cannot even imagine what it was like to live through it.

Hard as it was to hear, the timing was perfect though, becuase, truth be told, I was feeling sorry for myself today. This might have been God's way of dumping cold water on me and telling me to get a grip.

I now realize from the stories he told tonight that he has also projected another authority figure onto me all along. From one story he told, I also better understand his paranoia. Although it seems like paranoia, in reality, I believe he is stuck in the past dealing with some all too real issues of that time. Once you know the story you can see that if, in his mind's eye he is back in the past, he has every reason in the world to be vigilant (seemingly paranoid) for his own safety.

He mentioned that ages 7 - 12/13 were particularly difficult. Age 7 corresponds with the littlest boy who has at times appeared.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
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HaWho,

I'm glad you are able to sit, listen and validate. Yes, he's starting to feel comfortable in talking to you about his childhood and this is great. It will help him inch his way back to being a mature man. It's unfortunate that they have to "relive" those times...but it is necessary in order to return to the present. This reminds me of the Christmas Carol, i.e., past, present and future.

Hang in there. It's going to get better...in time.

Also, please start a new thread. Thanks!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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