New LBH with WAW/Possibly WW, help Part 2

[MoveFrwd]

Nutts -

Have you read DR?

If so, what are your goals? And how are your actions taking you closer to them?

I'm reading it now, every night before I go to bed, when W is in other bedroom. I've not set goals yet, I wanted to read all of DR, then go back and work through the exercises.

Certainly a reasonable approach. Though Id recommend putting pen to paper as youre reading through it. You can always go back and revise later. Theres not really a test

As a corollary, I wouldnt advise "testing the waters" until youve read through it either. The point is to go through the process of getting yourself into a place where you can understand, interpret, and analyze the response in a way that frames it against the backdrop of your goals.

Keep reading!

[j20a00g]

You obviously haven't been doing much reading. Perhaps another method may suit you as opposed to DB? You truly have a shot at doing what works and it working! Based on all the readings and my experience of finding the resources apparently too late, I can say with confidence that each day you appear to be digging a bigger hole. Laying with her, all the chit chat, telling her you love her, etc and that was just today! If that's giving her space then dang man, I would hate to see your clinginess.

Hi j20a, I understand what you were saying, but I was simply testing the waters there. That was the 1st time I had told her that in weeks, and the 1st time I had laid down with her as well. I don't think it was a good test for me, so I do need to continue to give her space.

As always, appreciate the advice, even the tough love kind!

You are nowhere near "testing the waters" stage. You have months before that happens if it happens. You view it as testing the waters, it comes off as clingy and smothering. Not everything in the process is for you. You are making this all about you. Keep reading bud. My advice until you finish reading is to do nothing but read. Ten read again. And then when you have the urge to test waters or ask to be intimate or cuddle or bring up relationship talks, come here first!

[sandi2]

Just so you will know, Nutts, I backed off when I saw you being pulled in different directions. I think that is how to lose a newcomer. Sometimes, we come on a little too strongly when a new member just arrives. So, I hope you won't leave, and hope you will finish reading DR before doing anything else.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Bulldog, the W's OM lives 800+ Iles away, so she won't see him out. I'm as sure as I can be that A is over.

journaling:
yesterday, I went to a football game with some friends, my team won, and we had fun. came home, showered, then was waiting on S to wake from nap, so I laid with my W in her bed since she has monitor. we just small talked, nothing big, but the vibe felt good fwiw, not cold or anything.

S woke, and I went to my parents with S, had dinner with them, then went to friends house and played cards. it was a fun night, and I didn't feel sad or down or anything, I felt good.

the W had plans to go out with friends. this morning we talked. I wasn't going to ask about her night, but she asked what we did, so I told her. I asked if they went to anywhere new, she said no, then said, they didn't end up doing much, basically going to a bar, which was mostly dead, then hitting waffle house.

she actually texted me at midnight asking if I was coming home, and I said probably (and I did end up home).

not trying get to read into anything, just noting.

before I left this morning to go running, I did tell her this was hard for me because I do still love u. she just nodded and uh huh, or something. it did the really bother me, but I just wanted to see her reaction.

until next message, good luck everyone with ur life and relationships.

Funny. I was going to say this was actually perfect. The "I love you" was nuanced as you were explaining your behavior and your difficulty with the current situation because you still love her versus saying "I love you" and hoping she'd say it back. Still probably reminds her of feelings she doesn't have right now which leads to her thinking she just has to follow through with the divorce so, in the future, you might refrain from "i love you" speeches and temperature taking because she isn't capable of "loving" anything right now anyway.

You GAL'ed and went about your day having fun with friends out and about and your wife "chased" you. You came home at her request and then met her needs for conversation without forcing it. Hopefully, you were the one that cut it short and you didn't pursue sex again (you'd just been shot down the night before). Don't overly pursue.

Her affair is over. You said you are convinced it's over so while you remain in Step 3 of the Last Resort Technique you can see and sense your wife reaching out to you a bit so the doing NOTHING 1st phase of Step 3 isn't mandatory (nor do I think it's advisable). Your presence isn't bothering her. You aren't smothering her. You aren't chasing her around the house. With OM gone there is a empty space now where someone (you?) can hopefully step in as a friend and listening ear to guide her back to safety strategically. I think what you appear to be doing is strategic and not overly pursuing but receptive to communication and angling towards building some trust back.

If she actually separates and files for divorce, you'll have your chance to go back to "doing nothing" under a more protective and strict 180 plan. In fact, it might be more effective then because you demonstrated and made clear by that point that you do want to recover, would be receptive to recover, cherish her, want her and won't neglect her anymore should she come back. This period may give you the opportunity to demonstrate your changes and should she later follow through with separation, then pull back into nothing mode under the last chance resort method.

Below I will post again, Michele Weiner Davis's blog post about the Last Resort Technique. It's frustrating to see you actually doing what the author/sponsor of this forum's plan is and getting scolded for it.

Step 3 – Wait and Watch

One of three things happens when you use the last-resort technique.

1) Nothing.

Unfortunately, there are times when, no matter what you do, your spouse has firmly shut the door on your marriage. I tell you this because I don’t want you to think that this is a magic bullet. It isn’t. However, even if your marriage doesn’t improve when you do the last resort technique, your mental health will. I promise you. So many people have thanked me for suggesting this technique because it gave them back their dignity. They felt so lost and out of control prior to employing this method. With your self-esteem in place, you will feel more prepared to take on whatever comes your way. I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but since it is a possibility, you should know about it. Having said that, you should also know that there are two other responses you might observe in your spouse.

2) Your mate becomes curious.

S/he might start showing more interest in you, your whereabouts, and what you are up to in your life. Your spouse might even suggest you spend some time together to talk or do something enjoyable. It’s also possible that your spouse might start asking you a lot of questions about your sudden changes. If any of these things begin to happen, here’s my advice:

Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
Do not ask any questions about your future together.
Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
Continue to be upbeat.
Do not say, “I love you”
Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.
The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partners new interest, but not too responsive. If you go overboard, your partner will get cold feet. I’ve seen it happen many times before. If you are excited that the last-resort technique is working, share it with a friend, write it in your journal, go for a run around the block, but don’t wear your emotions on your sleeve.

You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse’s renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you’re met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer that you would like, weeks, even months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it’s okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.

3) Your spouse might have an overnight change of heart. That is, s/he might want to abandon any thought of divorce and jump right back into things as if nothing had ever happened. This third possibility is the least likely, but it does happen occasionally. I have some advice for you if this does happen. Don’t move too quickly! It’s really important to pace yourselves. If you act as if nothing had happened between you, it’s only a matter of time before your spouse will have second thoughts about the decision. You didn’t get to this place of disharmony overnight and, as much as you’d like to forget that it had ever happened, you probably won’t get things back on track overnight. So if you’ve been separated, don’t jump right into being together again. If you’ve been emotionally miles apart, don’t spend every waking minute at each other’s sides and don’t abandon all of your other interests. You have to back into your marriage cautiously. If you don’t, and really deal with the problematic issues before you recommit, you might find yourselves in the same situation a few weeks or months down the road.

As you do the Last Resort Technique, it might be useful to keep a solutions journal. Keep track of any and all changes you see in your spouse or your marriage. And remember, you should look for small signs of change. This might include a spouse who is a little more talkative than before, or one who emails you for the first time in months, even if the email is mundane in content. If you are living under the same roof, a small change might consist of your spouse spending time in the same room as you when in the past. s/he has avoided your presence.

Keep your eyes open and be patient. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.

[j20a00g]

Are you referring to me "scolding" GB?

The OP sought out WW to discuss finances during a separation, sought her out to have relationship talks, asked her to have sex, said I love you, got others involved with the A, brings up the A (asking if the OM or OM's W is still talking to her).

The watch and wait is after implementing some of the technique. Having read both threads, there is a lot of doing the same as opposed to implementing new things to then watch and wait to see what happens.

Nutts, if you take it as being scolded, my apologies.

[MrBond]

nutts I can tell you that you are not in the "Last Resort" stage. That's when you pretty much just agree to the D. So that advice doesn't apply. You have been smothering her so you need to back off a little. Think of the things that you're doing as calibration. You're going to swing back and forth from too much to too little. Right now she's mourning the OM and the last person she wants to be with is you. Just be friendly.

[nutts]

guys,

I did not take it as scolding, I understand we all might have slightly different views on things, and I took it more like tough love; j20a feels strongly about how I should be around my W and I appreciate him giving me his thoughts with no sugar coating.

I also appreciate bulldogs and Mr bond thoughts, and I try to take what I learn from everyone plus DR and make the right choices.

I do think giving get space is the right play still, and I'm actually out watching game football right now.

fwiw, W has been friendly, but I'm not reading glasses anything into it. while I sure she's ended the A with the OM, I'm a little paranoid about her trying to find another. it could be just general paranoia from a LBH, but Im just worried. its harder to snoop now, she put pw on her phone, and she set her laptop browser to remember nothing.

Anyway, we do have programs we watch together still. last night, we watched a show together and we'll probably watch more tomorrow. night. there's little talk when we do, but we've just done it that way for so long.

again, I appreciate all the advice, tough or not, I can take it. I honestly just want to save my M and I want to take the right steps to do it.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

nutts I can tell you that you are not in the "Last Resort" stage. That's when you pretty much just agree to the D. So that advice doesn't apply. You have been smothering her so you need to back off a little. Think of the things that you're doing as calibration. You're going to swing back and forth from too much to too little. Right now she's mourning the OM and the last person she wants to be with is you. Just be friendly.

Now I recognize that you are newer to this material having only been here since 2008, but the "Last Resort" technique is NOT used "when you pretty much just agree to the D" as though it's months down the road for nuts.

your spouse told you it’s over, it doesn’t necessarily nail the marital coffin shut. There are still things you can do to revive your flat-lined relationship. One thing you should consider is The Last Resort Technique. The Last resort Technique is exactly what it says it is. You use it as a last resort. In theory, this technique is identical to doing a 180, but you put it to use when your situation is extreme. What do I mean by extreme? It’s imperative that you begin doing the last-resort technique immediately if:

Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that s/he wants to get a divorce and it appears as if s/he really means it. It wasn’t just said in the heat of battle.
You and your spouse are separated physically.
You and your spouse still live together but have very little to do with each other. You may be sleeping in separate rooms, have virtually no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
Your spouse has filed for divorce

In Nutt's situation:
a. His wife remains adamant she wants a separation and then a divorce. Now that the affair is over and she's in withdrawal, her "hurry up and get out" drive is surely lacking but she hasn't recanted.
b. They still live together but don't have a lot to do with each other but that's changing slowly as she's no longer running around chasing moments with OM and finds herself alone, depressed and not minding Nutt hanging around as much (as long as he's not needy and begging).
c. They are sleeping in separate rooms
d. They are not having sex

You really don't get more "last resort" situational than a wayward wife sleeping in a separate room shopping for apartments and attorneys. She may never follow through but Nutt's best chance to save his marriage is to engage her strategically and delay her moving out as long as possible. If she moves out their marriage gets much harder to save. Separation is rarely a precursor to recovery and just makes eventually divorce much more likely.

So, in conclusion, he may have months or even years left to save his marriage but his best chance to do it is NOW before she moves out. It's his "last chance" to take advantage of his best shot. There is no OM right now, so she's alone and vulnerable to his confident and strategic attraction. She fell in love with him once and now he's even better, so she can fall in love with him again.

[nutts]

Hi All, a little update.

Not much to report these last few days. They've been pleasant, no talk of D or S, we've been friendly around each other too. However, there hasn't been many positive signs either. She doesn't seem as depressed, and I believe she's over the OM (or very close to it at least), but no physical contact, any poitive talk either.

She's planned a trip to her girlfriend's (flying there, no where near where OM lives) in mid November. I'm a little worried about it, but there's nothing I can do. I'm hoping it's just her getting some release time and have some fun, not going looking for other men, etc.

I'm almost through with DR, and I plan on going back over the relevant parts afterwards, but I do have questions.

When do I stop treating her like a WW, and more like a WAW, if she's not actively in A or seeking an A (and, I don't know either of those things to be true, but I haven't found any evidence, and, I've been looking for it no doubt). When do I move from being detached, giving her space, and doing my own thing to trying to include her in things, giving her compliments every now and then, basically being active in somethings, rather than reactive?

I'm not in a hurry, but I just wonder, when would my W be at the point she would be susceptible to some small attempts to woo? I guess I need to see more positive reactions from her 1st before I move to this stage. But, these are the thoughts that go through my head. I just need to be patient.

While things are going OK right now, deep in my gut, I know I've got a long fight ahead, and I am still very worried W is dead set on Separation and D. She's such a stubborn woman, getting her to change her tune will be hard.

Thanks all.

[doodler]

She's planned a trip to her girlfriend's (flying there, no where near where OM lives) in mid November. I'm a little worried about it, but there's nothing I can do. I'm hoping it's just her getting some release time and have some fun, not going looking for other men, etc.

nutts,

I'd be concerned as well.