Infidelity/WAH, my story pt 5

[PsySara]

Last thread

Timeline:
Oct 2015; WH confesses he's having an EA with plans to make her his "second wife" (this is not really permitted in Islam and he was distorting the religion to fit his desires), I restore deleted texts and uncover the fact it was a PA. I demand NC, MC and WH to do some reading. He drags his heels and barely agrees, I was pregnant and in the CCU twice with stress induced heart damage.

Jan 2016 WH breaks NC and I threaten divorce, three weeks later I give birth and WH and fight constaantly, he tells me he doesn't love me anywhere

March 2016 WH tells me he misses OW and wants to contact her, I kick him out. He sends texts that he will do anything to not lose his family, his children. I give him a second chance. Later on (in June 2016) I find out the affair resumed days later and in April the relationship died a natural death.

June 2016 I finish my residency and move to my home state (WH worked out of state 3 weeks out of 4) I had been DBing since May and WH noticed consistent changes in me. He requested we start piecing.

We've had HUGE problems and have been back and forth. WH still vacillates back and forth, he has poor boundaries but recently has started questioning why he has such poor boundaries. Recently I have changed my technique as we were drifting seriously towards divorce. I have been using DBing coaching and watching the videos on the Last Resort Technique. I made my approach one of softness and kindness, I have let go of making ultimatums and setting expectations. In the last week WH has had a major turn around and requested we start "dating." I have agreed, we have put our M and our R on hold while we learn about each other again. Effectively we are acting as a new couple and taking nothing for granted. We are polite, well groomed, sexy and flirty with each other. We both have decided to approach this with a beginner's mind and see where this goes.

[2Lady]

Sounds great!

[PsySara]

Today it was a bit chilly for the south and they kids only have summer clothing, since I only worked a half day I decided to go clothes shopping for them. I haven't been to a mall in some time so it was fun. I also stopped by Victoria's secret and bought some nice underwear sets. I decided to spice things up a little bit and sent a pic of the bag to WH with this message, "Sooooo...when did you say you were coming home?" He texted back, "Very very very SOON!" I got a little giggle and then drove merrily home.

When I got home I played with the kids and put supper on to cook. I then sent WH some pics of the kids and myself (I had my hair down and styled) and he was sending a lot of happy texts back. Now I am just sitting back and watching some tv while cooking supper and enjoying the cooler weather.

[JksD]

Cool!

[maybs]

Sounds like things have been going well for you Sara!

[PsySara]

Thanks friends!

I had a very short day at work today, I barely have any patients as the hurricane stopped all admissions but not discharges. I went grocery shopping, came home and took a nap, then went out to lunch with my cousin. It was like a mini vacation, fabulous. When I came home from lunch I then pulled in too close to the garage door and scrapped my brand.new.car. I felt sick. I texted pics of the damage to my WH. He called immediately and asked if I was okay. I told him I was fine but felt really stupid and guilty because I have a car for 2 months and do some bad damage to it. (not to mention WH paid a HUGE down payment on it) He told me he didn't care about that, he just wanted to make sure I was okay. He said he would take it to the body shop and get it repainted/repaired when he comes home next week.

I know it seems small but just his concern is a change in demeanor with him. When he was in the affair and still in the fog afterward he showed no kindness of empathy towards me. At point I admitted to suicidal ideation and he was cold and aloof at the time. He just asked me if he needed to take me to the hospital, he flew back to work that day.

My DB coach says that people in affairs are like alien pod people. It's not the person you married and they are not reasonable or logical. To view your betrayed loved one would mean to admit to the horrendous behavior they have committed. He assured me that eventually this changes and your spouse's personality is returned. So his concern and caring (not to mention putting value on my person over a car) shows he is being returned back to his body. WH even joked that he would just buy me a new car and exchange the scratched one. He was so kind and gentle, I think my husband is returning.

I still face my own demons. Thoughts of the OW intrude, thoughts of my WH's awful treatment of me during and immediately after the A still poke in multiple times a day. I work on being mindful of the here and now, I focus on the changes I see happening NOW and remind myself that the past cannot be changed but can be overcome. I look at my children and know no matter what, the are my biggest blessing.

I am still working on my goals:

1. Be kind, keep my voice soft when when angry.
2. It's ok to disagree but never ok to scream or treat another person with contempt
3. Focus on spending more time with my children in the evenings, keep the laptop closed until they are in bed.

[PsySara]

Aaaaaand the pendulum swings again. In the last two days WH has gone back to saying he is not sure what he wants. He feels it would be kinder to me to walk away from this marriage. He was all over the place, talking about wanting the opportunity to experiencing dating, to be alone, to drive around new cities. It wasn't very cogent or organized. I completely expected this while he is in his work state so was careful to validate and remain detached.

However. Tonight we were talking and I said, "Know I love you, hon." (he had been requesting words of love lately) His response was, "You know, OW said to me she wished I didn't love her. That was two days before we stopped talking." I was caught completely off guard by this comment and felt down right insulted, I felt compared frankly. I was very quiet and he started asking what was wrong. I told him I had previously requested not to hear about their feelings for each other, that was a place I was not strong enough to visit. He started defending what he said and I lost my temper. I told him I didn't care what he felt for OW and what OW felt for him. I told him I didn't feel OW was capable of love or even being a decent human being. I told him I fantasized about her dying from some disease that eats a person from the genitals on up.

So.

Not my best moment.

He said we needed a break from the conversation and we needed to cool down. I said fine and hung up. I have spoken to my DBing coach about this in the past. The coach recommended something along the lines of gently placing a boundary. I had done that before but WH either forgot about it or doesn't interpret his comment about OW's perceived love from WH. This is my Achilles heel, when he starts talking about their "relationship" and his feelings about her. I am not sure I will ever be able to hear about it. Furthermore I am not sure how it would be edifying to our marriage.

I think I need to schedule another session with the coach. I am so frustrated and irritable at this moment.

[SH_]

Sara

Detach is what is needed...you know this.
In the past several weeks you have swung from wanting to D to loving him to all over the middle...and it all seems hinged on how he behaves...

You know that in DR that this is the key to being able to implement any strategy for DBing...

Boundaries require consequences. You told WH that you did not want other him speak of OW...what are the consequences when he crosses?
You getting angry is not a consequence.
Without consequences there are no boundaries

It tears at my heart as I am following along...I have been here since the beginning with you and you have DB'd like a champ, but as I read more of the chapter in DR for infidelity...I am more and more convinced, that you should be on the LRT and maybe even the "after the LRT technique...

Your WH continues to be disrespectful of you and continues to be wayward...Sara, I am worried for you.

How much can any person take of the wayward behavior, let alone a strong person like yourself?
There are consequences when one absorbs so much from behavior such as your WH...I learned this in my sessions with my IC as it related to my absorbing WAW anger...
He has continued with the same behavior over and over again...Read your thread...ther has been no change in him. It reads like a broken record.

I pray for you and your family...
I hope that you do not stand and absorb this disrespect and behavior for so long that it jades you...
The ball should be in his court...completely....unless I misunderstand MWD in the section for infidelity...the LRT...and the after the LRT.

Be well this evening my dear friend.

[Surfer]

PsySara

Finally got round to reading up on your sitch. Apologies it's taken some time.

In short, SH is right. Detach. I don't really know what this means for everyone else. This is how I am doing it right now - I do change how I approach it at times. This is working though. You know the analogy of "the Circus"? Well have you considered him just "a Clown", literally or even metaphorically. I just think a lot of their behaviour, it's been said so many times, is like that of a teenager. What do Clowns and Teenagers have in common? They try to get your attention in unorthodox ways. Okay granted he might not be behaving this way just to get your attention but why would he talk about the OW to you? Think about it.

So be the adult. Detach from the clowning around. He is afterall just being a clown.

Also. What's the worst case? If he leaves, gets together with OW - so what? You know what your life would look like (god knows you have envisioned it so many times), it would be fine and you would find happiness. So, why worry? Why fear losing him? Let him go. If he wants you and wants to treat you with respect he can but then you are in charge of that decision. He can then work to win you back. But right now, let him go. Do this to take control. Perverse I know. But if that makes me a pervert I will gladly wear that label.

Boundaries. Just tell him in a calm moment "you know when you mentioned this about OW? It made me feel hurt because [tell him how you felt]". Then tell him that you care about him and respect him but you need him to do the same and that means not talking about OW with you because it would make you feel [repeat your feelings]. Give him that clear boundary. Now you need a consequence. What do you think would work? You could outline a few and I'll gladly comment to help? As will others I am sure.

Why do we do this, when all we want to do is vent at them or others? Well, venting never really does much for the R (it only provides a temporary "release" for ther venting party) whereas a boundary will help you to regain control of what is happening. You set the rules. You set out the boundary and you administer the consequences for breaching that boundary. You are in control. Secondly it lets your WH understand, like a teenager, that they need to observe the boundaries. You did this with your D18 (still do I expect), you can do it with your WH.

What you must do however is detach. How do you do this with a teenager? Okay you get p!ssed off with their behaviour. But do you stop loving them when you set boundaries? Of course not. Do you get angry? Clearly yes. Does it last? No. You Administer the consequences and remind them what they did, remind them of the boundary, what the consequences were, how it made you feel and that you love them. You thank them for observing your boundary. You grow as a 'team'.

So what is the consequence to crossing this "OW talk boundary"?

PsySara. You are not alone here. You are allowed to have and feel emotions you know. You are not a robot. Don't beat yourself up if you feel frustrated or if you say or do the wrong thing. We all do. It's totally normal. Just try to do it less - detach from the frustration as soon as you can when a trigger is fired. Be an emotional athlete. Your eamotions race, like a pulse, with training you can calm them quickly - like an athletes pulse returning to normal quickly. You just need to practice. To train.

People are listening, observing and will help you on your journey. You are not alone. Remember that.

Surfer.

[JksD]

Ugh Sara. That really must hurt.

The pendulum swings again. If your h wants to file, he will have to wait at least 6 months? Remember you have the gift of time.

Is he feeling overwhelmed by the responsibilities of the family? Is there a way to outsource chores and perhaps have kore babysitting so that you will have more couple time?

Sara. Agree with firm (but gentle) boundaries. And this is where I will differ from SH.

A consequence I can think of that is appropriate for the situation is to remove yourself from the conversation civilly.

Perhaps you can talk to your coach about the latest development.

[PsySara]

Just need too clarify some things.

My children are 5 yo, 3 yo and 8 mo. No teenagers here but definitely a childish man-baby. My WH isn't here, he's in his work state so 100% of chores, child care household duties fall on me. WH gets in his "I'm not sure I want to be married blah blah blah" mode when he's in his work state living the bachelor life. Meanwhile I am here dealing with work, single parenting and DBing my marriage.

What future did I picture for myself? I pictured raising children in a loving, 2 parent home. I despise the idea of only having 50% of my children's life because some selfish @sshole chooses to go off and have a MLC or whatever. Also, I am burned out with regards to taking care of them myself for the rest of their childhood. Last night I only slept 2 hours because I was on call and the baby was up every hour. This is the third night straight of severe sleep deprivation. I've looked for night time child care and so far the options are pretty grim. MY family is very limited with being able to help me.

I am feeling rage towards my WH right now because I have been made a single parent through no choice of my own. I am doing what I have to do because I have no choice. We discussed our goals as husband and wife, parents and Muslims for 3 years before we married. He told me he wanted the family life, he told me how many ways he was looking forward to be an active father and husband. Now here I am, looking stupid for believing him. I am not in a good head space right now. I am exhausted and burned out. My energy is tapped out and it's nearly impossible to GAL when you're parenting/working 24/7. Even my coach was a bit perplexed on how to advise me when I told him my obligations and how limited my resources were when it comes to child care.

I am already livinng a life as if WH is not in the pitcure because there is no other option. In the meantime I am follwing the DB advice to make my marriage one a fool would leave.

[Surfer]

Apologies PsySara I scanned up (on my phone) and read SH D sitch summary. My mistake.

You must be shattered. I presume you are not on call at the weekend? Can you get some childcare support for tomorrow and just sleep and relax? If not How about a film for the kids and the sofa with a blanket and a cup of tea for you?

Get some rest.

Surfer.

[SH_]

Jksd, might you elaborate on what it is that you differ from me on here?

Sara. Agree with firm (but gentle) boundaries. And this is where I will differ from SH.

A consequence I can think of that is appropriate for the situation is to remove yourself from the conversation civilly.

I expressed that Sara needs boundaries...boundaries require consequences.

This is a consequence,

to remove yourself from the conversation civilly.

This is not a consequence,

I was very quiet and he started asking what was wrong. I told him I had previously requested not to hear about their feelings for each other, that was a place I was not strong enough to visit. He started defending what he said and I lost my temper. I told him I didn't care what he felt for OW and what OW felt for him. I told him I didn't feel OW was capable of love or even being a decent human being. I told him I fantasized about her dying from some disease that eats a person from the genitals on up.

I amy have misunderstood what you said, but I think we are saying the same thing...
I did not share an idea for a consequence, because as I have learned , we each individually need to determine what the consequence will be, because we individually need to know what we are willing to do. This is a very important DB principle from MWD and from those that share advice on boundaries...

Sara, must determine what she is willing to follow through on...and to be clear, consequences can not be about "punishing" WS/WAW. it must be a consequence that is focused on protecting oneself...

Sara, I truly believe your focus should be on practicing and implementing detachment. It is the theme in this forum, and most importantly t is the specific thing that MWD states before any step of DB or LRT will work effectively.

Detachment
How to Develop Detachment

In order to become detached from a person, place or thing, you need to:

First: Establish emotional boundaries between you and the person, place or thing with whom you have become overly enmeshed or dependent on.

Second: Take back power over your feelings from persons, places or things which in the past you have given power to affect your emotional well-being.

Third: "Hand over" to your Higher Power the persons, places and things which you would like to see changed but which you cannot change on your own.

Fourth: Make a commitment to your personal recovery and self-health by admitting to yourself and your Higher Power that there is only one person you can change and that is yourself and that for your serenity you need to let go of the "need" to fix, change, rescue or heal other persons, places and things.

Fifth: Recognize that it is "sick" and "unhealthy" to believe that you have the power or control enough to fix, correct, change, heal or rescue another person, place or thing if they do not want to get better nor see a need to change.

Sixth: Recognize that you need to be healthy yourself and be "squeaky clean" and a "role model" of health in order for another to recognize that there is something "wrong" with them that needs changing.

Seventh: Continue to own your feelings as your responsibility and not blame others for the way you feel.

Eighth: Accept personal responsibility for your own unhealthy actions, feelings and thinking and cease looking for the persons, places or things you can blame for your unhealthiness.

Ninth: Accept that addicted fixing, rescuing, enabling are "sick" behaviors and strive to extinguish these behaviors in your relationship to persons, places and things.

Tenth: Accept that many people, places and things in your past and current life are "irrational," "unhealthy" and "toxic" influences in your life, label them honestly for what they truly are, and stop minimizing their negative impact in your life.

Eleventh: Reduce the impact of guilt and other irrational beliefs which impede your ability to develop detachment in your life.

Twelfth: Practice "letting go" of the need to correct, fix or make better the persons, places and things in life over which you have no control or power to change.

Sara, I believe in you.
I am concerned for you
I pray that you will turn to you and focus on you.
You are so focused on the MR, that you are losing yourself...
Cheeseless tunnels are when we set up camp doing the same things hoping for the same results...
The most recent conversation with WH is deja vu several times in your threads.
Please come out of that tunnel...

I am very concerned that you are not taking care of yourself first...DBing is about taking care of you first. You are still very connected to every little thing he does and or does not do...

I have more that I want to share for you for food for thought, but I have to run now.
Please do something for you today. You need a serious break from it all.

[amwknsw]

Clearly you need more physical support. I hope that you are not also shouldering the financial side of your children alone. I hope you are holding him financially accountable for his children.
Hire a weekend nanny -- perhaps one who can work 10-12 hours a day and let you rest, have individual time with each kid, etc. Make sure he is sharing in the costs of having these kids.

You mentioned 50/50 custody above -- there is no status quo of him being a caregiver for your children. If you don't want 50/50 custody, and frankly he very well might not himself, you don't have to allow him to have it. He has done nothing that shows he is a particularly committed parent, remember until recently he considered extending his contract in the other state. Look at how he talks, the kids clearly aren't his priority. He is his priority.

Back to lurking now....

[Ginger1]

Sara, have you thought of an aupair? I worked in a town where they were widely used for people will very demanding careers. They are live in, but maybe that could be helpful for now? The demand of one infant and working night shift shouldering most of the responsibility on my own was very draining and regular nighttime care was very hard to find. My ex watched her when I worked, so my schedule went according to his and it wasn't working out when she got older. I didn't have any family help either. We did get childcare for 2 days of the week so I could sleep after a shift. It's tough.

Just a recommendation if it is something you would like to consider and can afford. You are going to burnout. You are an amazing mother and doctor holding everything together but you can't serve from an empty vessel. I encourage you to find a babysitter this weekend and just take some time to yourself.

[ForGump]

Sara-- I'm speechless. I just cannot even imagine what your WH is thinking. I really think he needs some help.

Given what he's doing to you, I'd be worried if you DIDN'T get angry. We're not robots.

The fix-it part of me says you should require that WH pay for a nanny. Or maybe contribute more financially so you can cut back on your hours.

Unbelievable, your H. You deserve so much better.

[Surfer]

I just hope you are sleeping soundly. You need some rest.

If you are, isn't it nice that all of these people are caring for you whilst you sleep!

Surfer.

[PsySara]

Just got home from work, long and busy work day. A few texts went back and forth between WH and I but nothing aside from child stuff. I've pulled back a bit to regroup. I know detachment is important but so is trial and error. So far the trials that have worked is when I shower WH in affection. He responds almost instantly to this and softens, he becomes more attentive and responsive.

My anger has more to do with the fact I feel resentful over the lop sided nature of our parenting responsibilities. He comes home on Wednesday permanently. I feel there will more consistent results once he is here and not going back and forth to the place where he cheated. His behavior has been utterly consistent in that he regresses when he goes back to his work state. For now I am not making any sudden moves until that is no longer an option.

As far as boundaries go, I have pulled back and ended the convo every time he brings up OW. Last convo was a slip up on my end as my past response was to lose my temper. I screwed up again by raging on OW. The response I was supposed to be cool and detached while informing him I was stopping the convo as it had crossed a boundary.

Dbing has two constant rules:
1 Do what works
2. Stop doing what doesn't work

So far being aloof and dark resulted in WH thinking I wasn't interested in restoring the marriage. (he actually told me this) However being warm and affectionate reminds him of what he will be missing of he walks away. MY DB coach described it like selling a car, you don't give the price until you've let the person smell the leather, sit in the seat, drive it around. You show them the benefit of sinking $$$ into the car.

WAS have a tendency to believe that their spouse in unchangeable, they have created this list in their mind of unforgivable things the spouse "did" that means they are not worth fighting for. Part of the 180 is changing these things about yourself. In my case I have been a "right fighter" in the past. I chose to argue with my husband to convince him I was right, no matter how big or small the dispute. I showed my temper and yelled a lot. I was stubborn and would hold a grudge forever. I withheld affection for weeks when I was unhappy with his lack of help with household duties. So now I am "Acting as if" even when I am gritting my teeth. When he is here I see very positive results, when he is away and not seeing my actions he regresses. So for now I am holding still as he will be here permanently on Wednesday. I expected him to regress but I was caught off guard by his comment and forgot to DB for a minute and relapsed on my old behaviors.

One thing I can never criticize is he was always 100% present when home with the kids. He has always been a very involved father when home. BBL, baby is crying.

[Surfer]

PsySara

You sound so much more positive. Great (get some rest though). Is that because you know he will be back?

Do what works:

1) Keep showering him with affection*
2) Don't withold**

* - If it works do it. Do you make sure you look sexy but aloof when you do this?
** - Men hate withholding. Full stop. Never do it. Who did you learn this behaviour from? I will explain more when you tell me.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Final point - sorry.

Left go of any form of grudge. Accept him. His faults etc.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Final, final point. Sorry.

'Right fighter' - really. Who is always right? You just need to grow up on that one. Sorry 2x4. I'm don't know everything and neither does anyone else. Might not like it but it's true.

Surfer.

[2Lady]

It sounds like your situation may not be so bad as it seems, as long as you can get to the point where you are living in the same location. It's not an excuse, but perhaps the main reason for his straying was simply that you weren't available, and he wanted someone, anyone, to fill a physical role. And then he got caught up in it a little more than he expected and started to have feelings for her. It doesn't necessarily mean he did it because there was anything wrong with you. But then maybe he saw differences between the two of you and saw things he liked in her that you didn't have.

I think that is what has happened with my husband. His reason for looking for a second wife was something that simply we can't do anything about so I don't feel I failed him in any way, but nevertheless once he found someone he has gotten a bit carried away with it all in terms of being a bit obsessed with her and thinking she is perfect (anyone is perfect if you don't live with them yet). But we don't have any serious inherent problems between us that should drive us apart so I am trying to take a face value his assertion that he knows he will get bored of her in a year or two, and if history repeats itself like with our marriage I would expect him to start reclaiming his space after 6-7 months, which will coincide with Ramadan this year when his temper will go sky high from 2pm to iftar and I have already told him he will be spending that time with HER, not me--there's at least one benefit to polygamy hahahaha! But it should help to speed up the detaching that he needs to do.

But truthfully, I think what is working for you is working for me too. I'm very confident in the fundamentals of our relationship and I have made a special effort since we have been apart to always remain very cheery and upbeat when we talk and it seems to be working at least in keeping things good between us. I even managed to get away with a joke today about suggesting he run away from his wedding to join me to do something else around the same date and he didn't get angry and just said well you can do it if you want, but not with me. But I felt it was a good step because he didn't get nervous about me making a joke like that and think that I was trying to sabotage things.

[PsySara]

Surfer,
I was pointing out what I did wrong before the A and how I am trying to change that.(I was 2x4'ing myself, ) "Right fighting" is the supreme form of stupidity, you can be right or be happy. I was showing my former behaviors that I am working on changing. The reason I have been so affectionate and warm towards WH, also showing him I am willing to be forgiving and gentle, is because I am showing him what he can lose if he walks away. More importantly I am making these changes because it is the right thing to do. Obviously I was presenting it utterly wrong, I am working on stopping the bad behavior and doing a 180, I wasn't saying these previous behaviors were good, quite the opposite.

I read the 5 love languages and took the online quiz. Later I convinced WH to take the quiz and he came out very high on the Physical affection. So I have made myself warm and touch him a lot now, this results in him softening and turning back towards me. Sadly when he's been at work I am out of sight and mind, his mind starts to forget the warmth and affection, he starts to remember the "list" of my previous behavior. So I've come to expect these pendulum swings when he is out of town. I was expecting him to go cold again. I wasn't expecting the non sequitur comment about the OW and broke the rules by showing my temper.

2Lady,
My WH CHOSE to work away from his family for money. I requested he stay with us and settle for less money for 2 years until I completed my residency. When he met this woman and started having sex with her 3 weeks later. I don't think anything I did or didn't do can justify his behavior. It is zinah and punishable by death in our religion. He had an affair because he is an insecure man with low self esteem who felt his ego stroked by a 20 year old nurse who told him how amazing he was because he was a doctor. If men could just take multiple wives like picking different flavor foods (get bored with one just get another) then I would not be part of this religion. I don't think our situations are comparable. Polygamy the way my husband tried to approach it is haram. She was kufr and her wali would not have consented. The fact that they committed zinah and then WH tried to shoe horn his situation into polygamy is disgusting and an insult to the true reason polygamy was practiced during our prophet's time. The Ow said point-blank she did not believe in polygamy and was just humoring my WH when she said she would consider it.

[2Lady]

Do what works:

1) Keep showering him with affection*
2) Don't withold**

* - If it works do it. Do you make sure you look sexy but aloof when you do this?
** - Men hate withholding. Full stop. Never do it. Who did you learn this behaviour from? I will explain more when you tell me.

Surfer.

Withholding what? I guess we need to wait for the explanation?

[JksD]

Hi SH,
I may have misunderstood you while squinting at my tiny phone screen.

For me, boundaries and consequences are things that are within my control and that I can enforce.

Sara won't be able to make her h do anything if he decides that he is going to talk non- stop about his wayward feelings. If she asks him to stfu, he will just feel justified in his wayward feelings.

If she tells him that he must stop or she will kick his a$$ to the kerb, that's an ultimatum - she's trying to control his actions and forcing his hand.

What she can do is to walk away and resume when things are more pleasant.

On many first -person affair recovery sites, the former waywards confess that it takes time for them to get over the addiction of A. It may take at least 1 to 2 years.

They will want to talk about the op. They will have feelings about the op and will want to reminisce about the A.

These are normal. It hurts like cr@p but that is their reality. These may not mean that they have no intention of working on the M.

Sara will have to watch the actions of her h and be prepared to ride out the waves. If her h shows willingness to work on the M, then I say give her H a chance.

Not all returning spouses jump back into the M as evolved beings dying to show their sincere remorse and unshakable loyalty. There may still be a lot of doubt, guilt, shame and anger.

These are issues that have to be worked through. And piecing will probably be for the rest of the M and lives.

It took time for the waywards to become waywards. It will take time for them to reverse the waywardness.

[JksD]

But Sara,
All the dbers are right.

You need to outsource some of the parental duties because you need time for yourself first.

You need to take care of yourself first b4 working on your M.

[SH_]

I think my points to Sara are going largely misunderstood...
Much too much focus on WH and not enough focus on Sara...

Jksd, I agree with all that you say here, and that is what leads to my question...
Why are we focusing on WH?
Sara has no control nor influence over him...
My words are to encourage that Sara focus on detachment, GAL,thought control and forgiveness...
All of these are the first points from MWD in speaking of infidelity...
This is what Sara can control...
And her reasoning, is what you share Grl...
WH should be willing to speak of the affair, be done with the affair, and put in his efforts before Sara can do much with working on the MR...

Has this been agreed to by him?
If so, I have missed it.

I will leave this point as it has always been my most focused point and strong belief and understanding with DBing and the the things MWD has taught...
The first and most important focus is on ourself first...

Sara, I am always going to be here to support you.
We arrived at much the same time and you were there for me as I have tried to be there for you. I do not know what you are going through as I have never experienced waywardness, personally... but I have a very close friend whose W went wayward over 2 years ago and is still with him...he did not have DB until I found it this year and shared it with him...he still has not put the focus on himself first, his WW seems over the OP and willing to work on the MR...
The issue is now he is nearly a WAH.
She stays...he has set the bar way to high as MWD explains it...
He did not work on himself and still continues not to.
No GAL...
No thought stopping...
No forgiveness...
No detaching...

These are my points that I am encouraging that get your focus first...

So I apologize if my attempts to nudge you and Cherry into extreme focus on these things first is coming off as anything related to giving up on the MR or tossing the WH out...

Not my intent...
I will back up with my advice because I may be a bit hardened to WS as I have several friends struggling...MWD advice is the best, I just pray the cart is not being placed before the horse...I pray that her upcoming book on infidelity comes out soon as she has announced...more clarification of her teachings may shed light for many...

You and your family are in my prayers.

A good quote that I want to share before stepping back is one that I am trying to apply in my own life and challenges, I hope you may find some wisdom and hope from it as I have.

When you focus on problems, you create more problems.
When you focus on possibilities , you will have more possibilities.
Zig Zigler


I see much possibility in Sara.
Once Sara has strengthened herself through the things she can control with detachment, GAL, Thought stopping, and Forgiveness...and WH agrees to stop all affairs with any OP...then the healing can begin no matter the length of time...or ups and downs...
You are awesome, strong, and a wonderful person a great mother and a fighter for what you believe in...these all make you the woman that only a fool would leave...already at this moment you are that woman...
Keep focus on Sara and you will prevail.

(((((PsySara)))))

[Surfer]

PsySara

All noted. You can be happy or right this is true. However, whilst you highlight your H's insecurities perhaps 'right fighting' may be a product of your own. I'd scratch death the surface a little more if we're you. I say this because my W is still 'right fighting' but much much less. MIL is big on this too. Why doe people do this do you think? Be honest because it's something I need to understand. Are they over competitive, insecure (hate it when people don't agree and validate) or something else or a combination?

My W used to say I did the 'out of sight out of mind' thing. To some degree this is true of course because when you're at work you're working you're not supposed to be sat thinking about you and your family all the time. Also, when you are having (non-wayward) fun elsewhere, why not have fun rather than dwelling on your partner etc). Again when my wife raIsed this I thought about it. I wondered if she felt that there wasn't enough affection, chasing or possibly control over me on her part. If I am honest I think this again has some foundation in insecurity. What do you think?

What I am trying to understand is whether there is some insecurity in this behaviour from my W - granted her sitch is different to yours but there are similar languages here.

BTW you seem a little better rested and I am pleased about that. I hope you are feeling better.

Surfer.

[PsySara]

Dory,
Thank you for your thoughts. I am trying to work on myself and make myself a less stubborn, softer and and warmer person all around. I am trying to put my ego on the back burner. Most importantly I am trying to build positive memories (now) so my WH has something to think about when he is drifting.

SH,
MWD tells people that you can influence your partner, she is very adamant about that. The entire design of her DBing is about how you can influence the people around you by truly listening to them and then doing trial and error. She has an entire video on youtube saying "You can push their buttons because you installed most of them." She is has been clear that it can take one to tango and save a marriage, it is the one way her technique differ from every other marriage expert. My WH hasn't spoken to the OW since June when I confronted and found about their second affair in April. Mostly this is because she cut him off and walked away. Meanwhile he's been pining and withdrawing from her. So while his thinking is wayward he is not still in the affair.

Surfer,
You asked why I was a "right fighter?" Good question and one I am still thinking about. My first thought is it's an ego issue. I grew up in a contentious family where arguing was constant and sometimes ended in violence between my brothers. I really struggled with apologies. It felt like losing a piece of myself to be wrong. (the arrogance, right??) I've gotten better about this but still have a looooong way to go. As far as "out of sight, out of mind." I am not expecting my WH to dwell on us constantly, but when he is living away from us he starts to question if there is any benefit to being married to me. He will start to say we aren't compatible, we argue too much, we never have any fun, etc., etc., However when he's here he says how much joy and love he feels, how much easier it is to forget the OW. It's hard to paint your spouse as the villain when she's sitting there and doing and behaving on good way, ykwim? (this is addressing my marriage)

[J5K]

Sara,

I just caught up on your sitch. I totally agree with what you said "do what works". Shower him with affection. You have seen the results of what that does. The results are positive. Although maybe not always perfect, it is positive and over time will strengthen the relationship.

I can relate to your struggles having 5 little ones of my own and know how hard it is to work full time and balance everything else in the house. You are amazing!

[SH_]

SH,
MWD tells people that you can influence your partner, she is very adamant about that. The entire design of her DBing is about how you can influence the people around you by truly listening to them and then doing trial and error. She has an entire video on youtube saying "You can push their buttons because you installed most of them." She is has been clear that it can take one to tango and save a marriage, it is the one way her technique differ from every other marriage expert. My WH hasn't spoken to the OW since June when I confronted and found about their second affair in April. Mostly this is because she cut him off and walked away. Meanwhile he's been pining and withdrawing from her. So while his thinking is wayward he is not still in the affair.

Yes, Sara I understand that MWD is adamant that we can influence another...She has written an entire other book about this exact topic..."Change your Life and Everyone in It"

Change your life...you...then everyone in it...

It is all about ways we can influence others...and you know what?
In the book, it discusses how we must start with ourselves...

MWD states that your emotions will ambush you...she says she will help you manage those emotions...she gives us those tools...This is the starting point.

So, much of what you write is about you WH and your attempts to influence him...
Your reactions to him...
Good reactions...
Poor reactions...
Thoughts about reactions...

Emotions ambushing you?

My WH hasn't spoken to the OW since June when I confronted and found about their second affair in April. Mostly this is because she cut him off and walked away. Meanwhile he's been pining and withdrawing from her. So while his thinking is wayward he is not still in the affair.

Sara,
He had cut off an affair previously to fall into this one, if I recall correctly.
MWD says very clearly that he must state and comment to you that it is over...she is emphatic that the wayward cannot simply go with that it is implied...Has he done this, this time around?
MWD point on "Promise Change" from the WAS. She states this is the common theme when MR do not survive the affair.
After 2 times...and this is simply my opinion...Might you not deserve and demand this...for you?

Sara,

Very little is being shared in your story about your GAL...
What are you doing for you?
Thought stopping?
What are you doing for you?
Forgivness?
What are you doing for you?
180's...permanent 180's?
What are you doing for you?

Horse= You
Cart= Husband

Are you pushing the cart?
Are you pulling the cart?

Sara... I am not trying to convince you that what you share and are trying is wrong...There is no value in debating that...it is not wrong...it is spot on...it is a perfect focus for a LBS that knows what they want......
There is no motive for why I share the point that starting with the key elements that her you control emotions, and pound away at it with you...I simply share in hopes that you take 2 steps back...see that you are forgetting you, in what you are sharing...

We read that you are working many hours...
We don't read what you are doing to enjoy yourself...
You are squeezing in time with your beautiful children...
We don't read what time you are spending with friends or family...
You are doing all the day to day duties for your family...
We don't hear what activities that you are doing that make you happy or bring moments of peace and joy for you.
You are prettying up yourself and your demeanor in efforts with communication with your WH...
We don't hear what you are doing to make you feel beautiful inside.

What are you doing for you?

How are you making permanent the changes in you, through forgiveness and thought stopping?
This is for you, not him, not the MR.
How are you making changes in your thoughts so that your actions are genuine and not of the "biting ones tounge and grinding of teeth"?
You are your thoughts...people around know and sense when we do this. WS, sense it even more I imagine...men have a sixth sense when a woman is not being genuine...although so many LBH here say we never saw it coming...because we hide from this sense...WAH, on the other hand are not hiding from it, they are running from it.

WS know when things are not genuine in our actions...and it is not because we slip up on occasion... it is because we don't do enough to change our thoughts and our beliefs inside...

GAL is the medicine that helps us see what truly makes us happy.
Thought stopping is the exercise that conditions us to control the random patterns of our minds.
Forgivness is the exercise that helps us detach by seeing them for who they are and not focus on what they do...sound like the decision to detach correct?
180's are the exercises to change our instinctual patterns of behavior.

These are all things that must become daily habits for us to make changes to then be the person that can most influence our spouses.


I apologize that I am going on so much...I really need to step back...I can not hope to influence by lecturing and being long winded...D18 reminds me of this often...but...I see great hope in you and your situation...I see true potential under the shallow surface of past habits and patterns of behavior that you have been vulnerable and strong enough to share with us...I see my D18 in you...Father instincts kick in...this is my challenge to change...influence comes from giving space...and leading by example, not words.

I may be out of place to continue to share my point...I truly believe you are close to what is needed...but, I know that I can not convince...nor do I choose too...simply share my thoughts, that all change and good influence of those around us...starts with oneself.

In oneself, lies the greatest power, to have influence, positive influence on those around us...but we must tap into it first, before we can share out to those we love and choose to influence.

Dbing has two constant rules:
1 Do what works
2. Stop doing what doesn't work

Truth!
This also applies to efforts focused within and on ourself...
Only with true, genuine changes to ourself, can we hope to influence our partners in our MR. When our mind is aligned with our actions, influence has no doubt...it is then that those around us have a choice...and we will have no doubts left for what we have set out to accomplish...this is the true power of influence...this is why starting with oneself will provide the most traction in our attempts to DB...
The success stories I see here are when the LBS true has changed by following the principles for focus on ourself...the other stories where it appears to work and the regresses, makes me wonder if the changes were not so genuine.

The more tranquil a man becomes, the greater is his success, his influence, his power for good. Calmness of mind is one of the beautiful jewels of wisdom. James Allen


I am focused on you...
All of my support is for you and what you desire to accomplish...
I believe in you.
You can do this.

(((((Sara)))))

[PsySara]

What am I doing for myself? GAL is difficult when you are parenting/working 24/7. My DB even is a bit stuck when it comes to suggesting ways of caring for myself. I have sought out help from my family but they are very limited with regards to how much they can help. My mother (who is notoriously undependable) has flaked on my multiple times with helping out with the kids. My nanny is already complaining about working 5 days and the hours involved. I have looked for temporary help but they don't want to work weekends or for the small amount of hours I require to regroup. I continue to try but I can make help miraculously appear.

Sometimes I am able to go to lunch with a cousin but that is about twice a month. Rarely I get off a bit early and I use that time to get my hair done or some other bit of pampering. One of th reasons I was hesitant to have a third child is because my children were already potty trained and becoming somewhat self sustainable. WH pleaded for a third and promised to pull his weight....we see how that ended.

As far as the OW goes, both affairs were with the same person. Since then WH has told me it is over between them. Ironically he has told me it would be easier to leave me now since he doesn't have the guilt of choosing one woman over another. He has offered transparency but this has been hit or miss since his instinct is to be secretive and defensive. He still has poor boundaries and that is his biggest weakness. My DB coach says it's not what you say but how you say it, so I am working on how I ask for him to shore up his boundaries without it becoming an ultimatum. This is a process.

[SH_]

What am I doing for myself? GAL is difficult when you are parenting/working 24/7. My DB even is a bit stuck when it comes to suggesting ways of caring for myself. I have sought out help from my family but they are very limited with regards to how much they can help. My mother (who is notoriously undependable) has flaked on my multiple times with helping out with the kids. My nanny is already complaining about working 5 days and the hours involved. I have looked for temporary help but they don't want to work weekends or for the small amount of hours I require to regroup. I continue to try but I can't make help miraculously appear.

When you focus on problems, you create more problems.
When you focus on possibilities , you will have more possibilities.
Zig Zigler


Food for thought...

You say, "I continue to try but I can't make help miraculously appear."

What if this comment was, "I continue to try but I can't make WH miraculously see what he is missing and return to the MR."

Would you try any less hard?

I don't think you would...your actions show you would not.
You are working your a$$ off to make this miracle happen still, right?
Much of what you do is with the effort to do so.

So you do believe in miracles ...

My thought is, yes it is very difficult the situation that you are in to achieve GAL, but putting in the same or more effort as you are for WH can make this miracle happen.

Sometimes I am able to go to lunch with a cousin but that is about twice a month. Rarely I get off a bit early and I use that time to get my hair done or some other bit of pampering. One of the reasons I was hesitant to have a third child is because my children were already potty trained and becoming somewhat self sustainable. WH pleaded for a third and promised to pull his weight....we see how that ended.

Thought stop opportunity...

WH pleaded for a third and promised to pull his weight....we see how that ended.
Maybe the thought that can replace this is,

"WH pleaded for a third and promised to pull his weight....my WH may not be assailable as I would hope for to care for our child, but now I have beautiful child that brings me joy daily."

far as the OW goes, both affairs were with the same person. Since then WH has told me it is over between them. Ironically he has told me it would be easier to leave me now since he doesn't have the guilt of choosing one woman over another. He has offered transparency but this has been hit or miss since his instinct is to be secretive and defensive. He still has poor boundaries and that is his biggest weakness. My DB coach says it's not what you say but how you say it, so I am working on how I ask for him to shore up his boundaries without it becoming an ultimatum. This is a process.

Transparency with hit and miss?
Does this work for you?
"DB coach says it is not what you say but how you say it..."
Truth to this for sure
MWD says action, not words are what matter...
No matter how or what we say, if our actions are not consistent then our words will lose punch whether said right or wrong....

Stay the course my dear Sara, it is a process, and as you learn from each step of the way you will come closer to your goals, you will become stronger, you will be the person that you desire to be.

I continue to be your greatest cheerleader and supporter.
You will prevail.

“Relationships are such that if one person changes, the relationship changes.” MWD

[Surfer]

Are there no mums at school that you will have your kids for a weekend play date here and there if you do the same?

Surfer.

[J5K]

Surfer

As a parent of 5 boys I share Sara's pain and struggle. The LBS used to have a partner that we trusted completely with our children. I stuggle and I am sure Sara does also with that loss due to the fact the the trust in the MR is gone.

[PsySara]

I don't have the time to go to the kid's school and meet any moms. My nanny drops them off and picks them up from their preschool/kindergarten. My co-workers have teenagers or children too old to relate to my little ones.

My hope is when WH gets here on Wednesday it will leave me with the ability to do my own thing once a week. For now I am staying in survival mode and reminding myself there may be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Don't get me wrong, I love my children and don't regret having them. But I've been non-stop single parenting for 2 years now and I am exhausted. I brought up my struggles to point out why it's been so difficult GAL. I had moved back to my home town with the hopes of more help from my family but that didn't work out like I thought it would. So for now I am like a soldier in the foxhole and just holding my ground.

[JksD]

I like the playdate idea.

I dont know how it works over there but could you put your children, maybe the older ones in childcare? And then have the nanny look after them after the childcare hours?

Or are there any fun classes that you can send them to while you steal a few hours for yourself?

Is it possible to cut down on your hours at work?

One of my regrets is that I didnt cut down the hours at my work because work was consuming me and my life and what was left of it and me weren't the best parts.

[2Lady]

He had an affair because he is an insecure man with low self esteem who felt his ego stroked by a 20 year old nurse who told him how amazing he was because he was a doctor.

She loved him for his doctor title and status because she is of a lower status herself and she thinks it props her status up. You love him for the intelligence that he needed to become a doctor because you are his equal. You know what effort it really takes to get where he got in life and she doesn't. I bet if you pointed this out to him he would concede which love is more real and about him, not just something superficial and self-serving. Trust me on this one. I KNOW.

[PsySara]

My 5 year old is in kindergarten and my 3 yo is in preschool while I am at work. The nanny stays with the baby during my work hours. I go am at work at 7 am and off by 4 pm, my contract is for a year and not alterable. When I come home my nanny goes home and I do the dinner, bath, book, bedtime routine. One weekend a month I am on call so I work 12 days straight, this is part of my contract. I have ENORMOUS debt from medical school loans that should be paid off in 10 years.

The hours aren't intense but the emotional toll is huge. I am mentally and physically exhausted by the end of the work day. I come from a very poor family so it took me a long time to work my way through undergrad, I was 28 by the time I started medical school. I am 39 years old and just became a full fledged doctor. Junior physicians always have the harder shifts and longer hours, just part of the hierarchy. I am grateful that I finally reached my dream of being a doctor so I am not complaining. The pay is very good and I find great satisfaction knowing my children will never know the difficulties I grew up with. (electric not getting paid, little food, lots of midnight evictions because my mother didn't pay rent) There is also the benefit if WH decides to truly walk away and disappear that I will be able to financially raise my children solo. So far he has not been neglectful monetarily, he pays for their private schooling and upkeep.

[JksD]

(((Sara)))

Yes, I know how it feels to be so emotionally drained by work.

Your sitch really sounds tough with 3 kids. I have one and I am dead tired.

I have to say that you, like Cherry, are tough as nails. Both of you are setting great examples for your kids.

Not much of a help with your childcare sitch. Hope this gets sorted out somehow.

[PsySara]

Thanks Dory,
I think when WH moves here on Wednesday I can spend one night a week just doing what I want. I also am following MWD advice to "allow" my spouse to help out. When one takes on all the marital duties you effectively remove your spouse from feeling needed. Of course there is the added benefit of getting some time to mentally recharge however I want while WH takes care of the kids.

Today WH called and asked me to look at some links he sent me about houses for sale in the area. There was a lot of "we" talk and how "we" could have the house paid for in 10 years. My coach advised me to pay particular attention to this kind of talk as it shows WH's head has me and the family in his mental future. So I kept talking about the houses and actually avoided R talks. Frankly I need a break from M and R talks and it's nice to just have a normal conversation with hope in it. I also did some validation as he stayed late at work last night (gratis) to help out another doctor with a heavy call.

Yesterday the plumbers came and re-piped the entire house. It's a rental and has had sever plumbing issues since I rented. I had to keep the baby corralled all day and the house was a wreck when the left. So today I spent the day cleaning and minding the baby. The house is now immaculate and the kid's clothes washed and ironed for the week. I will be working 12 days straight so I prepped for that time. We just ate an early dinner as I plan to put the kids to bed a bit early. Soon I'll put them in their bathes, read their bed time story and cuddle them. I am blessed.

[SH_]

Sara

You are a marvelous woman, mother, wife, and doctor I would dare say.
You have traveled a long and difficult road and you just keep on going.
You are a wonderful example for so many to know that you don't let things hold you back, hold you down or knock you out.

I have said it before and I will say it again.
You are the superstar of DBers in the time that I have been here.
You study, you take action, you learn form mistakes, and all while pushing on with the day to day needs of your family.
you simply do not miss a beat.

I saw this quote to day and you came to mind.

She was fierce. She was simple. She was crazy and always had something to say. She had flaws, but when she was down she got right back up. She was a beast in her own way but one word described her best… Strong!

You and your family continue to be in my prayers.

[Surfer]

PsySara

Your post was really lovely (the plumbing bit I mean - ha ha). Seriously, he is talking about 'we' and a future with a house! Wow. Keep your distance and if he changes direction stick with it just as you have been. No M or R talks is good for now I sense. Something is going well. Keep doing whatever it is you are doing.

You have been a busy mum over the weekend. Feels good to be on top of things at home I see! Bathtime and cuddles - you are indeed blessed!

More of these posts please.

Surfer.

[PsySara]

WH started a R conversation last night that ended in him stating he wants a divorce. Okay then, which personality am I addressing presently. I handled myself poorly and started to cry, not exactly the lovingly detached picture, huh? Anyways, got two hours of sleep last night after that conversation. I am seriously thinking I may need to start antidepressants.

[2Lady]

Both personalities probably, or none. Remember they say "Believe nothing he says" so you should not take anything he says seriously at this point, good or bad. He's confused.

However, he knows he is coming to live with you (for good?) this week and perhaps the confusion is hitting a higher level at this moment. Once he gets past the anticipation of what might happen and it actually happens, he might settle down a bit.

If you want to keep him in your life, you really have no choice but to be patient at this point.

[JksD]

I agree with 2lady. He might be feeling the stress of having to live as a family again.

(((Sara)))

It must svck but believe none of what he says and half of what he does.

Your wh will get cold feet once he's back and he may get cabin fever.

How do you think you can prepare for that?

Everytime he mentions D, remember that you have the gift of at least 6 months.

Please take care of yourself, Sara. Would it help if you treat him like one of your mental patients? Easier said than done but try using your professional detachment.

[Surfer]

Everytime he mentions D, remember that you have the gift of at least 6 months.

Excellent. Keep this in mind. This is not a fast process even if he goes that way!!!

Also remember this. Often the WS uses the D word to pull your strings. I think they want to know you care. I think they are trying to get your attention - like a toddler does.

Try thinking of your reconciliation/divorce conversation that way perhaps? I had many of these conversations late at night with my W and it screws with your head. I stopped and started just going to sleep (you have made me remember). Why, because it was just going round and round in circles. Or she was. She was basically playing "Why Don't You Yes But" (google it if you are not aware). You have to exit the game and sleep.

Perhaps sleep deprivation and attachment have made you feel like this. You clearly love him very much and are struggling to break away to the extent that might make it easier on you. It's just a phase though I am sure. I have done this before lot's (just look at my thread - I read like a nutter!!!).

Get some rest, put the divorce part of the conversation right to the back of your mind. Focus on the reconciliation part and detach to the point you are happy either way. Remember that "Truly Blessed" feeling. Get back there.

No need to emotionally react to his words (because it's probably BS).

Surfer.

[Surfer]

PsySara,

A friend and I were talking. He came over for dinner - we drank far too much red wine so watched a film the next day rather than mountain biking - he ho (I am not sure it's GAL or G a Hangover but hey!). I digress. I was talking about my S6. He is a bit nervous of falling off his bike. My friend has cycled the world literally - he has a problem I think!!! LoL. Anyway, he told me to tell me S6 this:

"You only needs to look where you want to go and the bike will take you there."

It's true. I think it is also true about relationships (but many other things too). You are not falling apart. You are getting your relationship back on track. It's just a bumpy road. Keep focusing on that stage ahead where you are able to start and reconcile, to smile warmly and feel in love again. If you feel the opposite, it may never happen.

The tricky part, is detaching to the point you can take it or leave it - and you kind of need two approaches in my view. The problem is if you don't detach, you won't be the person you are at your core and it's the person at your core they need to see and you them.

Surfer.

[PsySara]

Thank you so much, friends. I think the reason I have been crying is due to sleep deprivation and being a female (read hormone stuff once a month.) Yesterday he checked on me, I was feeling very low and fragile. He was talking about how he was going to contact a lawyer when he got here on Wednesday and I told him I needed to hang up. (I could feel the knot in my throat and tears coming, I was grocery shopping after work) He didn't want to hang up and was rapidly saying he wasn't doing this to hurt me. I blurted out, "You are hurting me and this is the worst pain of my life. But I know you will do whatever you want to do no matter the costs." I then terminated the call.

After I finished my shopping I called him back like I promised and he was going on and on about how he needs to be free of me, he wants to escape the guilt and feels divorce is fair to him and me. I validated but told him not to presume how this is fair or good to me. I didn't argue just spoke in a flat, defeated tone because I had no energy to "act as if." Wh ended the convo saying he would not go to a lawyer when he got here and we would just see what happens. I told him fine and finished the call.

I'll be honest, I was pretty broken yesterday. Lots of crying and just feeling defeated. My WH's cousin called (she knows about WH's A and is solidly promarriage) She heard how blue I was and spent an hour cheer leading me and telling me to keep DBing. I felt better after the call and managed to get 9 hours of sleep last night. I feel better today and may just stay dim with WH to protect myself.

[JksD]

My sweet Sara. I am so sorry for your h's violent swings.

It must hurt like cr@p for you. Please lean on your h's cousin now.

Go dim but don't push away your h. Heal yourself and regroup. Validate and zip your lips when necessary.

Your H may act more and more erratic.

[PsySara]

I'm a little better today, still a bit low but just trying to use mindfulness and not ruminate. WH's cousin called again and let me vent, it helps me keep my cool when WH and I talk. Not much was saaid between WH and I, he sort of floundered around asking about the kids and very quickly asked about me, I gave a noncommittal answer about myself but spoke about the kids openly.

He should be arriving tomorrow around noon, I will be at work so that's a relief. I honestly am vacillating how to react to him when I get home. Historically he reacts very well when I am warm and affectionate. He tends to melt when I hug him tightly no matter how rough the waters. His LL is physical touch and he bluntly told me last visit to show him affection even if he resists. Being aloof has had the opposite effect of bringing us closer and he has read it as me being repelled by him. So while pursuing is a no-no it has been more effective for me to swallow my pride and hug the @sshole. (that was said in a joking tone btw)

[Sotto]

Hi Sara, I'm sorry you've been having such a rough time lately. Reading along, I think your H and your sitch are all over the place just now - he wants to rebuild, he wants to D - and that's just in the past couple of weeks.

My guess is he may remain somewhat confused for some time and the main thing is not to jump in that rollercoaster car when it glides up. That means not getting hopeful when he says he wants to rebuild and not dashing your hopes against a rock when he says he wants to D. I think it you continue to do those things, it just enables his behaviour because he knows he has a loving W who wants him - even though he is behaving poorly.

IMHO, if he says he wants to D, I would act as though that truly will be the case. So, if you bear with me and follow this through here. If you knew without any doubt you were going to D, what boundaries would you put in place for yourself. Would he get to sleep in the marital bed? Spare room? Would he have to find himself a place to stay? Does he get to hug you and treat you as his W?

Do have a think about this area, because in your sitch it may well be that he truly needs to appreciate how life will become if he follows this through. And I'm not talking about being cold - just honest and open with him about what does and doesn't work for you, given all circumstances. I see so much fear in your sitch and I see you doing all that you can to hold on. I understand that and I have been there. But perhaps it is time to lose the fear and let him go? Sometimes we need to let go in order to hold on....

Xx

[Surfer]

PsySara

It's going to be tricky and emotionally charged inside you today. If you can do just one thing today it's to 'act as if'. No R talk. Just kindness, perhaps even say. "Look I know this is a little difficult for you being back etc, I just want to let you know I get it, now before we go on, I don't want to get into R talk, it will be counter productive now but what I do want to say is I will give you all the respect I can right now as I am sure you will too". The. Give him a hug and see what happens.

Just thoughts. Might not be your choice. But whatever you do, remember acting as if will help you follow your direction of choice - positive self talk. Your feelings if followed most likely will bring negative self talk and a negative direction in your R.

I know I am stating the obvious here, given your circumstances and qualifications. I just want to reassure if at possible. As I know this will be tricky.

Keep to the path today. You can do it.

Surfer.

[JksD]

Hang in there, Sara.

Like I told Cherry, I realised that there is a difference between reaching out and being clingy. I think it's anti -DB to cling in desperation. On the other hand, I think if you can reach out in confidence and compassion without being a doormat, I really don't see why not.

Do what works. When H is swinging, stay on even keel. Validate when possible. When not, go dim and zip the lips.

When H is being normal or nice, match his brightness and maybe just go a little brighter and see what happens. Monitor and adjust.

I think I finally understand the concept of the lighthouse. Of being consistently compassionate. I think the wh are in so much confusion that they will appreciate the consistency that they so lack in their lives. They are skittish little squirrels.

Your H has at least 6 more months before he can file. You have the gift of at least 6 months.

If he starts taking actions to file, then you could start letting him feel the reasonable consequences of a D - less time with the children, alimony, child support, minimised physical access to you.

In the meantime, please take care of yourself first. You must be strong and confident to last the war.

[Surfer]

I think I finally understand the concept of the lighthouse. Of being consistently compassionate. I think the wh are in so much confusion that they will appreciate the consistency that they so lack in their lives. They are skittish little squirrels.

This is great! I totally agree. If they are getting smashed against the rocks wouldn't they reach out to and cling to the stoic, stable lighthouse?

[Surfer]

Then hug him FFS!

Do what works - you know the buttons! Be upbeat. Not downbeat.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

I wish my W would let me hug her. Crikey. That would be amazing progress. I think she hugged me about 2 years ago. She was heading off abroad on a wayward girls holiday. My D6 (at the time) saw her do this and said "Daddy you've done it, you've done it." Poor little mite. What she saw I think was my W
Saying thanks I know you'll find it hard when really she was giving me a thank you - this hug is pAyment for my guilt. Not 100% sure but I never got a hug again.

Surfer

[PsySara]

Sorry I've been so absent lately, DBing my tail off over here.

On Wednesday I bought my WH his favorite food on the way home. He was really grateful and ate the heck out of it. I "acted as if" and was bright and happy, I walked up to him and hugged him very tight. This had the desired effect, he sort of melted into me. Of course there are still bumps, we ended up fighting on Thursday after he asked about how I felt and I was honest. He still feels that my inability to "do fun things" when I was pregnant and had hyperemesis "forced" him to find another relationship. He says it's his fault he cheated but my fault he felt the need to find someone to fill in the hole. I am not sure how I would have been able to fill that hole since he was living in another state when he was so lonely. This is a tough sticking point, one I wish he would be open to MC. For now I am shelving it and will just shut the convo down until I think we can handle it.

Since then we are back to enjoying each other's company. Yesterday I took a long lunch and we went to the mosque together for Jummah. Afterward we went out to eat and I went back to work and finished up my work. Last night I wore a VERY risque outfit and his jaw dropped. We ML and showered afterward and then just collapsed to bed in exhaustion, but it ws a good exhaustion. I am thinking of us doing a weekend Rertouville or something.

Surfer,
I had tears in my eyes when I read about how long you have received affection from your wife. It had only been 7 months for me and that felt just horrible. I wish I could shake some sense into these WAS/WS but we both know they have to go through their journey alone.

Dory,
For now the pendulum has swung in my direction so I am using this time to make the marriage a good place for us. My biggest challenge is keeping my stupid, stupid, stupid temper in check. Any videos or books you can recommend?

Sotto,
If he files for D then I will put significant boundaries in place. He must move out, start paying support for the kids, limited access to them (within reason of course, my desire isn't to keep his children from him) and extremely limited access to me. In the meantime he has dropped D talk again and is asking if we should start looking for houses. This time I am not jumping on that train and I've let him know I need time.

[Surfer]

PaySara

This reads really well. I think keep a lid on the R talk yes for now. You need to build happy memories to replace the unhappy interactions this will take a long time and even the slightest slip in terms of backsliding will provIde seriously disproportionate results.

Keep those emotions in check. I found it was best to avoid conversations at time when my W was edgy. Usually early in the morning and late at night. I also ran for 20mins each day. Both helped in a way. But your R is very different. It will probably be 2-3 years since we last kissed and 5 years since we were
Intimate. It's very hard but intimacy is certainly a bond maker. So if there is any form of touch, keep it up is my view provided you both feel happy with it. Also little and often talks and touches work really well as I am sure you know - obviously he racey dress worked wonders too. Best get that dry cleaned and quick!

Surfer.

[JksD]

Sara, I would love to have videos/ books on how to zip my lips. This is my achiles heel and will probably be for the rest of my life.

MWD has a section on changing the steps of the dance in some of her books. Like what surfer said, note the when, why, what and how of these triggers. And change any one these steps.

I think you're doing a great job by not committing to these talks and leaving them to the therapist.

Perhaps for the time being, you could distract him whenever you sense these talks coming up.

Seems that physical touch and validation are working on your H.

[JksD]

Interestingly, MWD's stance on physical affection is that it is a way for some spouses to truly feel bonded to and wanted by the significant other. To her, it's still a case of doing what works.

[Cherry]

Wow, it's been a few days since I've checked up on people, but wow does he swing. You do a great job of adjusting but yet not getting up too much hope! I wish I could approach my wh for a hug- he would probably whack me away. Yet it's about a month since we ML. But it's always as passionate as ever. If I could get him that way it would invalidate the talaq he gave me!

Keep it up, I agree with grl- just do what works. You got this!

[ForGump]

He still feels that my inability to "do fun things" when I was pregnant and had hyperemesis "forced" him to find another relationship.

What would he say if you told him his absence and cheating "forced" you to find another relationship? Would he be OK with that?

[Surfer]

PsySara,

My WW said me 'not being there' was the reason she was in touch with the OM. These kinds of statements are both history rewriting and gas lighting. It is guilt avoidance. There is always a little truth in them - they grab onto the weakest branches of the tree. However the tree has a massive trunk and that is the more honest part they don't want to highlight. What is that truth? They chose to take an action, again and they were repeatedly being unfaithful and choosing to do that knowing it was wrong. So okay, you might not have been swinging from the chandeliers every night but is that realistic to expect in a normal M? That is the other point, besides their 'choices' that caused this, there are 'unrealistic expectations'. And even if it is reasonable to expect more fun, why not talk explicitly about their needs and work on this together.

No. His actions and choices. Not yours. You did not take these actions accept no blame. Don't get into the debate just blank it. He will have to live with his choices and work on himself. He will need to forgive himself for what he did. Not hold a fake grudge which he projects on you as he is not honest enough to see his part in this.

Surfer.

[JksD]

Totally agree with surfer. Guilt and rewriting of history.

There may be the smallest bit of truth but and it's a big BUT. You didn't hold a gun to his gun and force him into an A.

Just a thought. Were you doing fun things when you weren't pregnant? I think your H may be complaining about the lack of couple time and not only when you were pregnant. This may be something you have to work on in the future.

[PsySara]

Dory,
That's why I have chose to give him physical affection in spite of some folks saying I am making it to easy on him, the term cake eating has been used. If he were still in the affair then it would an absolute no, STDs and hard boundaries being necessary. This appears to be working to reminding him what he could lose.

Cherry,
With my WH I held back on physical affection when the A came to light. It took my almost a year to show him affection because his head was definitely out of the marriage and it would have resulted in driving him further away. But when the crack appeared in his resolve then I decided to take the leap.

ForGump,
I've actually argued that point in the past. He said if I had an Affair during that time it would have been justifiable. It's easy to say that when you're the one who has such poor boundaries and has to answer for your horrible actions. For now I am going to decide how and when to approach this wayward thinking, if he truly thinks my in(actions) led him to cheat then I can't feel safe with him.

Surfer,
Looking back I feel I could have been a better wife but I was by no means a bad wife. His problem is he has poor boundaries and has a smidgen of narcissistic personality, he feels entitled to do what feels good whether it's right or wrong. I think he is in serious need of IC but so far he is completely unwilling to go. At this point I wish we could at least have MC to indirectly get him IC.

So far we've had a few good days, last night he assembled a fire pit and DD5 and DS 3 roasted marshmallows for s'mores. I feel a little weird around him, like there is this wall between us. HE's polite and even kind but I feel...detached I guess. It's like when you lose a tooth and keep touching the hole with your tongue, continually feeling the emptiness where something once was. I am feeling very numb right now, I think because I am out of crises mode and wondering if we're piecing or...what?

[Surfer]

PsySara

Bless you. We can; and could, (all) always blame ourselves. But why? Are you terrible Yes/No? It's binary - the answer is No. you know that. Stop questioning this please. I could put my arms around you for just questioning you. Please don't.

You are fighting for him. To me you are perfect. Just because you are doing that. And keep doing it.

Just be kind. Not to him [per se]. To you.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

My W fights for her. How do you see her. Given what I post?

Yet I love her still. Am I bad/wrong?

Mirror it to your Sitch.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

PsySara,

I think because I am out of crises mode and wondering if we're piecing or...what?

IDK TBH. Might be worth reading up a little on it. I think its easy to assume you are but even if you are. it doesn't change how you react. Just be kind and nice and create new happier memories. The Marshmellows one might be a little one. Take your time, there's no rush. Be kind to yourself.

Incidentally. Coly's started posting in MLC section. They guys in there are really to the point and seem to really understand things clinically. Given how they speak about MLC'ers it made me think of your H. Might be worth stopping over for a read. It just might be some fresh approaches that help.

Take care.

Surfer.

[PsySara]

Thanks guys, just kind of drift mode. I've been a little numb mixed with moments of sadness. WH and I went to the mall today and things were okay but then suddenly he kind of checked out. His expression and body language was turned inward. I checked on him and he said he was distracted, this is code for "struggling right now." Honestly I've been a little blah today so I wasn't my best at "acting as if." I am not going to kick myself too much over this but rather just take it easy.

I think I am going to start IC for myself so I can have somewhere to process the affair without having to constantly check my own anger. I think part of the struggle I have is WH still doesn't show true remorse, I think he is filled with regret and guilt but remorse is too much for him. He may never have the strength and then I will know I have to move onto a future without him. For now I think we both need time and space (without living apart) to lick our proverbial wounds. I've lost so much weight that co-workers have noticed, my sleep is still hit or miss and I still have affair nightmares. Time for more self care and working on me.

[ForGump]

Sara-

Yes, if your WH truly believes he couldn't keep his pants zipped because you were no fun during 9 months of pregnancy ... well, let's home that silly thought is something he'll disavow once he returns to reality.

Anyway, you seem to require that he feel true remorse in order for you to go forward with him. Is that really a requirement? Sandi seems to say wayward spouses take a loooong time to feel remorse; that they might even come back into the relationship but not feel remorse for a while.

Also, what do you (or he?) mean when you say he feels regret but not remorse. What's the difference? Not being argumentative. Would like to understand.

Wish you peace & sleep.

[JksD]

Sara, I think it's a good idea to go for IC.

People have different ways of saying sorry. Try reading when sorry isnt enough. It's the 5 languages of apology.

In a nutshell, the 5 languages are:
1. Expressing regret: I am sorry
2. Accepting responsibility: I was wrong
3. Making restitution: How can I make it right
4. Genuinely repenting: I want to change
5. Requesting forgiveness: Can you find it in your heart to

Which of the 5 would really speak to you? Is your H aware? (Not sure if right now is a good time to let him know. Prob when you go MC together?)

Which has your H spoken?

If I remember correctly, at different points of the pendulum swing, your H has expressed 1 and 2.

Personally, at the beginning of piecing, I feel that 3 is quite promising. 4 and 5 may come very much later.

[JksD]

Take care of yourself first, Sara. You're a physician. You know that you have to take care of yourself first.

Observe the pendulum swing but don't climb onto the pendulum. Dont let the pedulum become your wrecking ball.

[Surfer]

ForGump makes a great point here. He might not fully express things the way you want him to. You need to prepare for that with you IC.

I re-read the infidelity chapter of DR last night this really resonates with what you are saying. It is also something I struggle with. Never any apology or explanation of what happened just all denied. I have seen the texts and tracked the meetings though.....anyway I digress. Try having a re-read.

The weight loss is stress and anxiety. You are going over and over things. The only way out of this is talking or writing your thoughts out. Your H might not be the best company for this at the moment. The other thing is getting really drunk, no only joking. Tried that, it never works. The other thing is exercise. I know you are super busy but as H is home could you get 20 mins a day? It will really help you - to sleep too.

I remember living separately together. It was at that stage where the spew was horrendous and relentless. You remember those days (I sense you days are slightly better than that now) anyway, every day I took that run. For weeks, months I don't know. It helped me burn off the cortisol. It helped me 'see' I was so, so messed up. Give something a try. Perhaps it you could set something up between Kids and H for their bonding time. It's not just you that needs to repair relationships they do too. It will give you a break.

Also, on the not sleeping thing. I totally get this. I ready something on line about boiled bananas. Or perhaps that just me I am bananas. I am going to try it as I am struggling and whilst the vino will get me to sleep the calories are a waste of time....

I'll let you know how I get on!

Take care Sara. Get as much rest as you can, have a long bath, go for a walk, run or even just walk with him and the kids and hold hands. It's tricky I know.

Surfer.

[Surfer]

Jksd

Love those 5 languages. That will really help PS and me.

Thank you!

Surfer.

[JksD]

You're welcome, Surfer!

[PsySara]

Anyway, you seem to require that he feel true remorse in order for you to go forward with him. Is that really a requirement?

Yes it is, because then I know he understands the gravity of what he has done and that he must fortify his boundaries so it never happens again.

Also, what do you (or he?) mean when you say he feels regret but not remorse. What's the difference?

Regret is when someone feels guilty and filled with shame. They are horrified that they did something bad. It is a self-focused thing. Remorse is the understanding that your actions have affected another person and brought them great pain, it is the desire to rectify and seek forgiveness and restitution to alleviate the harm you caused that other person. It is not self focused but rather a recognition that you must attempt to right what was done wrong.

Dory,
So far WH has said he was sorry but his actions do not bare that out. He appears to be embarrassed and ashamed of what he has done but unable to do anything to change imself or to attempt at making it right with me. He refuses IC, MC, speaking to an Imam (he cancelled the appointment) and really balks at anything I suggest to deal with this affair. He's stuck right now and his method of coping is to repress and then forget about it. I can't move forward with US if he does that, it means that he's learned nothing and will likely repeat his behaviors.

Surfer,
I will likely start going to the gym and doing some running. The preschool my children attend has a gym, pool etc., I need to make a schedule and spend an hour a day (3 times a week) running on a treadmill. Hopefully this will create some healthy hormones to bring my mood up and help me work through some stuff. I also have scheduled IC for myself next Wednesday after work. I already gave a head's up to my WH and let him know I would be late that day.

I was up last night due to the baby and then phone calls (I was on call for admissions.) I am pretty tired today but WH came and took me out to lunch. It was nice and we both are glad we went. Tonight he went out and bought a desk and chair for his man cave (bonus room) and plans on starting a study regimen for his boards. I think I need to start doing that as well as board certification gets me a bump in pay. I made sure to be wearing an very classy/sexy dress when he came back from chopping and he immediately dropped everything and asked what our plans were for the night. I coyly responded, "Just hanging out, I guess." Usually WH would be fixated on constructing his desk and chair and spending his time away from us. (he gets really tunnel visioned when he gets something new) But instead he asked if we could watch something on tv and we watched a new series.

My LL is Quality Time and he knows it, it really surprised me to see him spending time doing something I enjoy even though I know he was itching to put that desk together. Step by step we may do this DBing thing.

[Surfer]

PsySara

I am loving your progress. Both of you. Your LL may be this but your achillies heel is fatigue also cortisol. Both are linked of course. Watch the man cave thing. Keep him out of that as much as possible by doing exactly what you did with dressing nicely. Chatting etc. It's acting as if I know right now. But it is working it seems. Focus on his LL too and remind him of what he was organising - when you are looking your best and have his attention remind him you are looking forward to it.

Then get it arranged. This could be the start of date night - don't forget date can be a chat on the sofa, in the kitchen et. But take it really slow. This is a new relationship don't forget.

Got to sleep.

Surfer.

[JksD]

Keep on keeping on, Sara. You have the gift of time and the gift of your H's physical presence. You have the grit, the resilience and the wisdom.

You know what it is you're fighting for. For your M, for your children, for your grandchildren. For future happy memories with your H and children. For not having to worry about who is going to sit where during your children's wedding. For not having to worry about the logistics and emotional dynamics of blended families.

It is not just love you're fighting for.

Please understand that I am not, and will never ask that you be a doormat, throw all boundaries to the wind, and sacrifice yourself in the fight.

Take care of yourself first. Arm yourself with the necessary physical, emotional and financial support. Be an improved version 2.0 of Sara. Keep on even keel. Don't get onto the wrecking ball.

And then you can fight for your M.

[PsySara]

Thank you, Surfer and Dory. I find myself struggling with anger and resentment now that he is home. He still says wayward things, blaming me for looking outside the marriage, still controlling. Last night he asked me t look something up on my phone (he was driving) I started to look it up, he said use my phone, I started to use his phone, he said use Google maps, so I did that, and then he got angry because I wasn't doing it like he wanted me to.

I shut down and stopped talking after he took over. HE later asked if he offended me, I told him I felt he was being controlling. His response was I was doing it my way and not his way. I said, "When you ask someone to do you a favor then they can do it their way." He disagreed and said you should do favors the way someone wants you to, I said all that mattered was it was done.

Cue argument that ended in me going to our bedroom and slamming the door and putting the baby to sleep. I am struggling with this anger, this rage. Right now I feel that he should show some remorse, some insight that his way can sometimes be wrong. It really all comes back to the affair, I don't think he really regrets it or views it as a truly awful thing to do to your spouse. Now he is acting the exact same way before the affair, petty and criticizing every little thing I do.

Don't give he baby the toothbrush.

You're Googling wrong.

etc., etc.,

Sigh, I need some space today.

[Rose888]

"You're Googling wrong"--ha!

Has he never read a book about delegating or leadership and the evils of micromanaging?

((Sara))

It's easy to laugh at him from here, but I would be super frustrated if I were living with him.

[Sotto]

Ugh - I hate that tone! Negative, critical, controlling. And I do think - if you want things done in a certain way, do them yourself. But if someone else is kind enough to help, step back and let them do it their way.

Next time he does that, you may just want to hold up your hand, hand back the item to him and say - I'll let you do this your way - and walk out. I know you are hoping to save your M, but there's no need to tolerate being spoken to in that way.

FWIW...maybe I'm just a little feisty today....

[Painter]

Sara, I'm so sorry he is like this.

I recognize similar thoughts from WH - he had some strange ideas about interaction, and also refused MC for a very long time. Anger and impatience was what made me withdraw.

[JksD]

I am so sorry he's like that. Has he always been like that even before the A?

I hate to admit this on the Internet but I was like your H. I guess I can still be like that. Overly anal retentive at times. Especially when I am stressed or tired. The funny thing is I only show this side to my family. It's like I use up my quota of tolerance with other people and then I blow up at my family because I assume that they should know the way I do things.

Oops. I somehow need more control in my personal life than in my professional life.

Do you think that this aspect of your H contributed to or exacerbated his waywardness? How so?

If it doesn't, then this is just one of those irritating quirks of marriage and your H that both of you can learn to manage.

As much as an idiot that your H was, he did ask how his behaviour affected you. So he has self-awareness. Did he apologise for his behaviour?

Both of you haven't been living together for long so it takes some getting used to, having him with you 24/7. This is just like the phase of getting used to each other just after the honeymoon glow has worn off.

Now, the other thing that worries me more is the blame shifting. What usually triggers it? Because I remember that there were times that he felt sorry for what he had put you through.

I feel that you should see an IC and both of you should have MC to work through the A.

This is going to be tough because on one hand, you have to get used to living together again. On the other hand, you still have to work through the scars of the A.

[Cherry]

Hmm he really does remind me of a certain someone with the criticism and telling you your way is not the right way. A certain man, but I just can't think who...

I feel for you, because I've been through this, which would then lead to me pulling back away from him for the sheer fact I can't do anything right. Maybe when you are both a little calmer, talk through this and tell him how he makes you feel when he says these things, maybe he doesn't realise that it hurts you. There's always got to be a compromise somewhere. But you do deserve more than being passive and allowing him to treat you that way or it will really damage you. My ex before wh was worse for this, I think that's why when wh began doing this it really would anger me. Because when I broke up with that ex, he left me a shell of who I was, so scared I was doing everything wrong.

[PsySara]

I will try to answer the questions as I can remember.

Yes WH was always critical before the A, in his defense Iw as as well. What's funny is I was actively working diminishing my criticism a few months leading up to his A. I made sure not to criticize the way he cleaned or helped out with the kids. Instead I made sure to validate his help and point out that I really appreciated it. Sigh. A few months later the bomb drops.

Initially I demanded MC and made him set up the appointment. He went to three sessions and barely talked to the counselor. He would just stare at the floor and give a few words. Even the MC was frustrated with WH's stone walling. Finally WH said he didn't want to go anymore, that was Dec 2015. When I have brought up IC and Mc he refuses saying he has nothing to ask. He is not interested in any points of view save his own. Pride is a HUGE issue here yet he swears it's not. Sure.

The frustration is WH will sometimes ask if he offended me, when I tell him how I feel he begins to argue and tell me how I am wrong and misinterpret the conversation. He really thinks that his thoughts are the only valid ones and that everyone else's is simply misunderstanding.One of the reasons I wanted MC was so we could have a neutral third party re-frame the conversations so our communication could be better.

I have been careful to say, "This made me feel like this...." so it's more about my feelings and not blaming him. Maybe he will become more receptive to counseling as I become more successful at DBing.

Tonight he went to McD's and bought the kids and himself dinner, nothing for me. Then he went out and bought something for his office. He just walked in and is actually being more civil to me so I will sign off now and try to "act as if."

[JksD]

Ugh. Your H is being really childish! Yes, I hate it when someone asks me how I feel then goes on to completely ignore me or reframe the whole conversation into why I was wrong to feel the way I felt.

It seems to be a wwh thing, doesnt it? Probably that's the reason they strayed - to find someone who will not doubt that they are the only ones whose reality is valid. They want someone to put them on pedastals.

Ok. End of rant.

Just checking. Does your H deliberately demean you or hurt you? If he does, then there is another problem. When I think of someone who is controlling, I think of someone who deliberately hurts to maintain control. Does he enjoy hurting or demeaning you?



Now back to dbing, if you dont think your H is pathologically controlling/ pyschopathic or sociopathic.

So talking about how you feel isn't working at this time. If your H was your patient, how would you deal with him in a professional but detached manner?

What is the fastest and simplest way to disengage yourself? Do a 180. Simply just do it?

Would humour help? I dont know, make a funny face. Answer him, yes daddy (teacher), I'll do it exactly the way you like. And erm, maybe turn it into something naughty? Tell him that for every demand that he makes to do things only his way he has to remove an article of clothing? (Inspiration from mwd's books)

Remember, your H is facing the same adjustment of having you in his life 24/7. And he's acting out. He has lived on his own for a lot of your M. He's a high flier (?) who's used to having people listen to him.

So ego issue here.

Sara, choose your battles. Keep your eye on winning the war, not the battles.

[JksD]

Btw, I realised that even if I prefaced my statements with 'I feel that....', kid's father would always feel attacked.

That's just how some men work. So, skip this talk about feelings step entirely.

Just deal with the demands and try to see if you can solve it/ change the dynamics at that level.

This really has to do with The M rather than the A.

Try not to lump too many issues together or you will be writhing in resentment and your H may give up because he feels that there is nothing he can do to redeem himself.

A issues would be:
Transparency
NC with OW
Boundaries
Sense of security
Rebuilding love etc.

Btw, I am not a therapist so I think it's a good idea to get a gottman or mwd affliated ic to help you.

[AndrewP]

PsySara - As a man going to counseling in a rural area I might have a perspective here. My counselor has mentioned to me that I am one of the very few men she has ever dealt with. I think many men are reluctant to ask for help with emotional / personal issues.

Counseling will only work for him if HE believes it will, not if it is something YOU are pushing for him to do. When I first started looking for counseling it was because I realized that I was "broken" and had no clue on how to "fix" myself. I went looking to how to get stronger to survive my journey. In some ways this was no different than when I get a plumber to fix my hot water heater or my brother the tree surgeon to trim my lilacs. Perhaps I could do it myself, but why muck around when there is an expert who I can be confident will do the job right.

Selection of the "right" counselor is also critical I think. My first therapist was a disaster for me. I found out later that she was known to not work well with men. I had selected her because she was of a similar age to me and had good credentials. When I started to talk about the anger I felt she demanded to know how often I beat my wife (I abhor violence) and threatened to call the cops on me. My second counselor I got through a referral from my MD and she has been an almost literal life-saver. She's probably about 15 years younger than me but she "listens", asks pointed questions that make me think, is (mostly) non-judgemental and gives me homework to do (possibly because I ask for it).

Think hard too about your H and his relationships with women and men. For me a female counselor worked far better I think than a man would. For a man I wouldn't open up nearly as much as I would to a woman. I feel that I can be vulnerable around a woman but not a man. Not every man feels that way though I'm sure.

So - maybe do a sort of 180 on your H and counseling. See if HE can identify the basics of how your MR is broken and then call in the experts.

Just my 2 cents.

[JksD]

Ugh. Your H is being really childish! Yes, I hate it when someone asks me how I feel then goes on to completely ignore me or reframe the whole conversation into why I was wrong to feel the way I felt.

It seems to be a wwh thing, doesnt it? Probably that's the reason they strayed - to find someone who will not doubt that they are the only ones whose reality is valid. They want someone to put them on pedastals.

Ok. End of rant.

Just checking. Does your H deliberately demean you or hurt you? If he does, then there is another problem. When I think of someone who is controlling, I think of someone who deliberately hurts to maintain control. Does he enjoy hurting or demeaning you?



Now back to dbing, if you dont think your H is pathologically controlling/ pyschopathic or sociopathic.

So talking about how you feel isn't working at this time. If your H was your patient, how would you deal with him in a professional but detached manner?

What is the fastest and simplest way to disengage yourself? Do a 180. Simply just do it?

Would humour help? I dont know, make a funny face. Answer him, yes daddy (teacher), I'll do it exactly the way you like. And erm, maybe turn it into something naughty? Tell him that for every demand that he makes to do things only his way he has to remove an article of clothing? (Inspiration from mwd's books)

Remember, your H is facing the same adjustment of having you in his life 24/7. And he's acting out. He has lived on his own for a lot of your M. He's a high flier (?) who's used to having people listen to him.

So ego issue here.

Sara, choose your battles. Keep your eye on winning the war, not the battles.

[JksD]

So sorry! Double post!

[J5K]

Sara,

I totally get how wwh makes you feel. xW makes me feel the same way. If we don't do things exactly how they would do them then they are wrong.

Somehow in their eyes we are the bad people because we can't understand or mind read what they have difficulty communicating to us.

I sense that you and I let our S's have quite a bit of control in our MR's. Not necessarily a good or bad way to live, but seems to me we were always one step behind which brought us to the place we are now.

I feel you are making progress though. Dory has given some great advice, don't sweat the small stuff. Get him to feel like he is the man of the house and is wanted by his awesome sexy wife.

If he asks you to do something again and then starts to criticize, then just give the phone back and say, here honey, you always do it the right way/better/or whatever bs line you want to add to stroke his ego and make sure you let his criticism not bother you.

I feel our sitches are very similar, had we smothered them with kindness and given them all our focus, things would have been different. That seems to work for your sitch from time to time so keep a journal of the positive things, re-read the things that go right, continue to do more of those positives and you will win the war.

[Sotto]

From your H's behaviour Sara, he doesn't sound as though he wants to rebuild your M. I don't think you get to have an A, say you want to rebuild and then be 'off' with your W as he is being. I hate to say it but when XH was being like that with me, he was still in contact with AP. Is he being transparent with his devices and whereabouts & suchlike?

[Surfer]

The WS does this. I still get it and separation is the only things I that really helps. He won't criticise anyone else like he does you. It may be a form of projection IDK TBH. I am going to have a chat with my W about respect and avoiding criticism, condemnation or complaining. We both mutually need to agree to be respectful enough not to use the 3 C's so we can call each other out. Of course she will say it wasn't a C it was an observation. If they need to play by the rules. Set boundaries or suffer the treatment you allow.

Keep that rage and anger at bay. It's just poor communication on both sides and you can't expect him to treat you in the 'right' way if you do t explain what that is.

Just and observation.

Keep your cool. You can do it.

Surfer.

[JksD]

Sara,how's the transparency plan going?

[PsySara]

Quick check in while the kids are eating breakfast and WH is still asleep. WH will allow complete access to his phone and email. However since he previously got a burner phone I know this only gives me a false sense of security. His behavior is that of a WS in withdrawal. I think since he's moved here he realizes there is no going back to AP. (mind reading, I know) There aren't any times unaccounted for, he isn't sneaking away but there are plenty of times where he could easily make the time. My gut is telling me there is no one else. Rather the walk-away part is dominate.

Yesterday we took the kids to a Fall festival. We went for a hayride, ate carnival food, kids played in a corn pool, other games and rides. They had a GREAT time. Most of the time WH was quiet and pensive, I kept things on a low key with him and just enjoyed the kid's pleasure. On the way home WH complimented me on the choice of fair and quietly asked if we could talk about us. The kids were all asleep in their car seats so I agreed.

He asked if I felt our relationship was salvageable. I told him I was unsure. He then went on to say he felt it was unfair that I would "settle" for him. He said he cheated and now felt only care and obligation towards me but no real "romantic love." I have heard this so often that it didn't even sting this time. He said he was willing to hang around and see what might happen but worries I will look back and feel I wasted years on him. I told him I was simply taking it one day at a time. I was frank (but gentle) and told him I change my mind 7 times a day whether or not to fight for this marriage. (we both chuckled at this, he goes through the same struggle) The convo was quiet and non-confrontational, I feel we both felt heard.

I go to IC this week with a Gottman certified therapist. I also plan to check in with my DB coach. I may also try to squeeze in time for a re-read of DR. I soldier on.

[JksD]

(((Superstar Sara)))

Humour is good. Non - confrontational is good.

How do you feel when you see H interacting with your kids? How do you feel when you both chuckle over your comment of you changing your mind 7 times a day?

Love is little things like this, Sara. Love is deciding to fight for the M when you don't feel like it. When your S is being downright unlovable.

It seems like there is love, Sara. Just not the 'OMG, I need to jump into bed with you right now and I will die without you' kind of love. Perhaps this applies to your H too.

The next time this type of convo comes up, maybe you can tell H about how you feel when you go through the ordinary, mundane routine of life with him and your kids? (I am assuming that there are warm fuzzy feelings here. )

I am not a therapist but I feel that a lot of your stresses are situational stresses. Crazy careers, living apart, 3 young children below 6.

Situational stresses are situational and not permanent.

If your H is suffering from withdrawal and not in an actual A, I would suggest speaking his LL, building up the emotional bond between the 2 of you and minimising things that will create friction.

You know the spiel by now:
Take care of yourself/ Detach/ GAL
Keep on even keel/ little expectations
Stfu/ Validate
Monitor and adjust
Do what works

[J5K]

I am rooting for you Sara!

Happy to hear that you had a great family day!

[j20a00g]

Of the 3 therapists we saw the Gorman was by far the best!

[j20a00g]

GOTTMAN lol sorry

[Surfer]

Just be kind to you Sara.

You once said you believed in me.

I believe in you. Tread carefully my lovely Sara.

Lots of love.

Surfer.

[ForGump]

I change my mind 7 times a day whether or not to fight for this marriage.

Like Mules wrote in my thread, you gotta be true to your heart ... but the heart sometimes the hardest thing to know. I hope it becomes clear to you.

About WH's phone ... I've struggled with that kind of curiosity, the need to know ... but after a while, a comment posted by someone else just rang true to me: I just don't want to live like this (constantly suspecting that something is going on). So I just went cold turkey on all social media. I feel much better.

[Painter]

Marriages go through difficult times. this is the 'for worse' part. He spent years enjoying the 'for better', is he going to run away as soon as it's not great?

My advice to both of you is give it time. He had to be completely over the A before anyone can tell.

[Surfer]

Love this:

"Marriages go through difficult times. this is the 'for worse' part."

surfer.

[PsySara]

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