A Father, that was called a Super Hero-Wolverine

[Phoebe]

Hello, dear friend. I want to ask you a very serious question: When is the last time you pencil-smiled or listed to f*ck that?

I am not going to tell you how you feel, or how you can fix it.

I just want you to know that I am still here, that I am still squarely in your corner, and to let you know that I think you are a fine person just as you are.

I will ask you to consider, though, getting back to some of the basics that we talked about when we both first came here.

You've done so much soul-searching and digging and analyzing and reading and researching, and now perhaps the pendulum has swung a bit too far. Maybe it's time to just sit back for a little while and focus on the present moment. Maybe it's time to stop looking so far inside that you turn yourself inside out. Let the effort to be a hero go for a while, and embrace the wonderful imperfections that make you who you are. Look in the mirror and see the beauty that lives inside of you.

Turn back toward the light, my friend.

Look at the beautiful faces of your daughters, and you will see the light within you that is reflected in them. Your daughters don't love you because you might become something better/bigger/stronger/deeper/more ____ in the future. They love you because of who you are right now, and because you have been there for them their entire lives, their source of stability and safety and unconditional love.

You don't need to stretch and grow and hammer yourself into a new form that you deem an improvement. You need to rediscover that you are good, just as you are. You are humble, kind, loving, brave, compassionate, strong, forgiving, and I know I am not the only person here who admires you deeply.

Remember how we talked about the grieving process, and how everything you are feeling is completely normal??? Well, that holds just as true now as it did months ago. There is no time frame for this recovery process, and the longer the relationships we are coming out of, the longer we can expect this process to take. You and I were with our spouses for over 2 decades!!! We're not even halfway through our recovery journeys yet. Please be gentle with yourself, my friend.

Go way back to the most basic things that we started with here: Take a moment today and ask yourself, "what can I do today that will make me feel like myself again?" What can you do that is purely for pleasure, rather than because it is good for you or because it is what you or anyone else might thing is the right thing to do? Give yourself a mini vacation from the constant desire to push, to grow, to understand, to reach, to dig deeper.

Just breathe, Silver Heart. You are still healing.

[roist]

I will reply to the q you asked me. I had a feeling you could have been hiding behind your words. Painting a superficial fantasy to cover reality. But it could as easily just been that you are more elegant/poetic in your choice of words. I posed my question to be sure.

You have many friends and followers here. Before retreating to ponder on things alone, could you do two things for me:
1. Elaborate on this anger and the incident where you want to cut a friend.Cut someone where I come from means slice with a knife, though it could be used to signify dump/remove from your life. I hope you meant the latter.In which case, I will say that you get to chose who is in your life and what is acceptable. Sometimes that does mean excluding someone we would prefer not to. Do what is best.
2. Remember this board and its members are here for you when you want/need us. You have helped many here. But now look after yourself.

Best wishes

[Ginger1]

Phoebe, that is EXCELLENT advice.

We get so caught up in this self improvement thing (which is great) but sometimes we forget to stop and appreciate who we are, in the moment.

[roist]

It is good to see you reboosting your efforts here to motivate others and help newbies. I hope you are following your own advice and are looking after you

Best wishes

[SH_]

Forgivness

CT - As promised - this was posted to me on 7/29/09 by Bworl. It has stuck with me all this time. As mentioned it probably took to about 2011 or 2012 before I could actually implement it. Please read and use as necessary.




Here's a little passage from William Young's book The Shack.

If you haven't read it Mules, I can't recommend it highly enough. Deb read it first, passed it on to me and it was a one day read for me. I couldn't put it down.

Anyway, here are some of the things he had to say about forgiveness in his book...

Quote:
"Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......"
— William P. Young (The Shack)



Blessings,

Bill


I'm not telling anyone to stop what they're doing an go forgive their WW. I am saying that for you to grow as a person, this will eventually have to take place. For now, it's just food for thought.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[Vanilla]

You know SH

The most and only important person to forgive is yourself.

I recently understood that the reason I had little anger was I had forgiven V. Anger good quality white anger is motivating and creates change.

You feel as you feel, doesn't make it so in your sitch.

Observe the anger as it passes that is interesting.

V

[JksD]

I love the post on forgiveness, SH. I think forgiveness is about letting go of your own throat as well.

I am still trying very hard to internalise the difference of learning from my mistakes and self-flagellation.

[BluWave]

(((SH)))

That was a nice bit on forgiveness. Thank you.

Admittedly, I struggle with forgiveness. It has been some time now that H has been back (1.5 years) and I have not fully forgiven him yet. Some days I don't even want to. I agree with the quote that it happens in steps. It is not simply a switch that is turned on or off. My process has been rather slow--3 steps forward and 2 steps back.

I don't know what I am so afraid of. I can understand why the sequence of events happened in the deterioration of our M and I can see my part as well. Where I get stuck is simply the betrayal. To be honest, I may come to a point where I move away from this M. That is what my instincts tell me. Not anytime soon, not in the next several years, but some day. I want to know that I stuck it out and tried my best. H is a changed man--a good man, H, and father--but I continue to long for the way I used to feel about him. My heart is forever damaged. How do you forgive someone fully for that?

Sometimes I think coming here and reading/posting prevents me from moving forward and finding more forgiveness. When I read the posters' struggles, pain, and desperation I can't help but want to protect them. I don't feel an emotional trigger, but more a reminder of what I went though and that I allowed this man to destroy me. It took me far too long to let go of him. and pick myself up. It's is taking many of you too long as well!

I wish more posters would stop pining for the person who is hurting them and let go. LET GO. It's your only hope for healing and their only hope for finding themselves and possibly a way back to the M. I feel that so many here are trying to be a lighthouse, a friend, and just waiting, when really they are a door mat with a lost soul.

Maybe I need to go on a DB diet. Maybe that is why folks in piecing go dark from this site. I can see so clearly where folks are going wrong but I feel so powerless. I really admire all of you that keep coming back and helping others for all these years.

Everyone deserves respect, love, and you are ALL valuable. But you cannot look to your M to find yourself or your happiness in life. It comes from within. Even if and when they do come back it will never, ever be the same. The M is dead. The innocence is gone. Only if you both have let go, grieved the end, and learned to love yourself, and only then, can you build something stronger together. I may or may not reach that point, but I am a work in progress.

Blu

[SH_]

Forgivness-of ones self
Trusting ones self

So, I have been thinking about this a bit...

To me, I think that the key to building trust was about finding forgiveness....

The trust had been broken, yes, and it needed to be rebuilt from BOTH sides, and the trust that I needed to find first, was the trust with myself. I betrayed my own trust just as much as my Ex ever did. I betrayed myself, and the things that I promised way before she ever stepped outside of that trust circle.

So for me ? Trusting myself in my actions and decisions was way harder than worrying about trusting her again. And to this day ? I do not trust her, yet for very different reasons that I would expect them to be.

It started for me by realizing and accepting that I played a role in the demise of the relationship. I had to own the things that led me to betray my vows, way earlier than she did. I was just as depressed, and angry as she ever was. I let fear drive my actions, not ever being aware that I had fear. I was controlling, superior, condescending, and out of touch with any kind of relationship skills. I assumed her feelings continually , and I was an absent parent throughout most of my children's infancy.

There were reasons for most of that. Obligation was a main issue, and the reason I was working long hours. Yet looking back, and through the next step of things. It really didn't matter what the reasons were. I WAS guilty of all the above. And I own them , not proudly, just the flag that I fly now. Absolute truth....

When I first started delving into myself, I resisted seeing those things because I was still looking for this to be somebody's fault except my own. I wanted to blame her, I wanted to blame MLC, and I wanted anything other than that person in the mirror. When I started really being honest about it, I was just as much, probably even more at fault than she was. Way more at fault than MLC was. I was not responsible for her MLC, that was a perfect storm inside of her own head. I was however, responsible for my actions that led her to many triggers.

IF.....IF what we read and hear is true, and that having another person firmly entrenched within the middle of our Marriages, is nothing more than a Band-Aid, and not the real reason, or root cause of our Marriage failing, then the real issues need to be owned and addressed BEFORE any healing can occur. As much as I needed somebody else to be at fault, when I hit MY bottom, the only way back to the top was the truth within myself. This actually had little to do with her.

The more people that I talked to (DBers), and the more books that I read, convinced me that my way out of my self imposed Hell, was forgiveness. What the F was that ? How does THAT happen ? I can tell you that I didn't have a clue how to answer that. Maybe I still don't know how to word it, not even sure that I remember there being actual steps involved in it. What I do remember, is that to truly forgive, has zero to do with another person.

I took the time to break down each of the things that I felt responsible for. The fact that I emotionally abandoned her, that I was angry, that I was depressed, that when I abandoned her, I still held her accountable for my emotional well being. That I needed to hold on too tightly to her, fearing that she would leave one day. Working toward that being the goal instead of getting off of my ass and working toward being a better person.

I realized that the only thing that I had ever known, was what I had ever seen, The role models that had been in place for me growing up. The lifestyle that I witnessed, watching my own Mother's MLC at an early age, that ripped through my childhood. I did the best that I could, with the tools that I had at that time. Not an excuse, yet it is the reason.

When I worked through those things, is when I started to realize that what I was doing, was a choice, and that I COULD go through the rest of my life being the same old Asshat that I had been previously. And that the cycle would repeat if I didn't break the chain. My days became lighter, and my darkness started becoming brighter. Day by day, I started seeing things for what they really were, and not what my rose colored glasses tinted them as.

I could see forgiveness through all of the darkness, for the first time ever. Owning all of those things allowed me to free my mind of all the excuses that I used to carry around....EMBRACING my mistakes allowed me to start forgiving those things. And forgiving those things had nothing to do with her, it had to do with myself.

After that, I had to sort out the other crap, which was everything that she had done to betray the marriage and relationship. And I have to admit, by the actions that I had made, I really cannot blame her for trying to find the emotional support that I had abandoned years earlier. I really didn't blame her for trying to find the things that fed her soul, that I really didn't understand (because I hadn't taken the time to feed them for her). I really didn't blame her for trying to find support through parenting when I was absent. And I especially couldn't blame her for her MLC, and unresolved issues that were dancing around in her head. So what was left ???

It was the dishonesty that was my last straw. the lying.......

That was the hill that I was willing to die on, and the hill that the relationship did die on....

How does that tie into trust ??

Good question, and I guess that in typing all of that ^^^, maybe my sight of it has changed up a bit.

Trusting again, was one of the hardest things to do. Old triggers play a part, and new triggers are formed. I can tell you that trusting myself was way harder than trusting another person again. Trusting myself to not repeat the same behaviors that led me here 6 years ago. All of that comes into play. Trusting another person (in the confines of a relationship) is way less pressure than trusting myself in those same confines. Trusting myself to not make those same mistakes again.

Trust is the hardest thing to gain, and the easiest thing to lose. Last to show up, and first to leave.

And IF I could make the mistakes that I made, and was able to trust myself again, then nothing that anyone else had done , was worse than what I did to myself.... And IF reconciliation was ever a possibility, then I owed it to her (understanding MLC and all) to try to trust again. Through Faith, is trust given, and with my vow to her, I would have owed that to her....

I DO trust myself now, through a lot of hard work, and absolute truth with myself. And there are days when I do better than others with it. I do recognize those things when I am off, and I do recognize the things I do well.

I will say that to achieve any kind of relationship, there has to be trust, and however that happens is up to the people within that relationship. And it has to be a common goal for each party. What each other are comfortable with, and what they are willing to give to keep that trust all safe and warm.

I think that trust starts in a reconciliation through the common goal of WANTING to remain married. Trust starts small, and builds through trusting, yet verifying that trust. I think that trust builds through actions matching the words, and certain steps in place ( MC, etc) to protect that trust. Taking only in "safe" environments for example. Agreed check points for electronic devices for EACH party. Being as willing to give, as well as receive. Being aware of certain "triggers" and not assuming that you know anything. Being able to listen even better than talking. Being able to show trust in order to get it in return.


Another thing that I will say is, that DBing is perfect for detaching, and keeping the Monsters at bay through this. However, the things that we learn through DBing, aren't always perfect for the re-connection process. My advice would be to live within the moments, rather than what we accept as "normal" though MLC. Access every situation, and take things as they are, not what we expect them to be, or worse yet...assume that they will be.

To me, love means being vulnerable . There isn't any way around it. Love is a risk that we are willing to take in our lives. Part of living life to its fullest is part of being vulnerable. Being vulnerable in other aspects of life seems to be accepted more easily at times. Maybe a person sky-dives, or rock climbs. Even more so ? I get into my vehicle every morning to come to work....am I vulnerable ? Even more so than in a relationship.


I was asked last night..." Are trust and forgiveness two different things? "

I answered that they tied into each other. And I do believe that.

Without forgiving myself, I would never be able to trust myself. And trusting myself was the first step towards being able to trust another person again.

After much thought and contemplation of the recent theft of 2 posters that I respect and admire as I read there thoughts and wisdom, i feel compelled to journal my summary of thoughts.

There is much to be gained in the healing power of forgiving another...
But I believe that in order to be able to truly forgive another...we must learn how to and forgive ourselves.
Many of us say we forgive others...but do we say that we do and then walk away?
With space and time we may simply be forgetting...not forgiving.

But that is not an option when we are faced with the challenge to forgive ourself...no option for space...and time with ourself creates the perfect storm of rumination of that which we did to break our own trust.

This may be the dark cloud that hangs in my heart and mind...I have broken my own trust...I have seen my shortcomings with clarity since the day she told me she was leaving.
I have learned that I do not hold all of the fault...but...but I do hold my self responsible for much that I do own the burden of...and possibly a bit more.
I am seeing that my anger at her is a projection of what I am not forgiving myself for...my anger in general is at myself.

I have been seeking forgiveness for my W...I have found anger and spite and annoyance and even thoughts of good riddance when she scowls at me or is snappy about minor insignificant things...Forgiveness eludes me, although more space and time is desired by me.
Why is becoming a bit more clear now. I can not forgive her, because I am projecting much on to her...much that is me...much that I must resolve and forgive and rebuild my own trust for.
So that is the journey that I must pursue..for without trust in myself, how will I ever make decisions or take action tat is needed to progress or be successful in this life?

The berserker rage that I had and lashed out at one that I hold most dear was because I have not forgiven myself for much and it was called out inadvertently.
Her super power is unconditional love and the ability to see past my shortcomings...so while I know that my words and behavior in the moment cut her as it would any that I lash out at...she healed my perceived wounds by choice and would not let me retreat.

But I slowly continue to pull away...I do not trust myself...Isolation is my answer for now.
While I seek solitude as I determine answers for the conflict in my thoughts and desires, I have been contacted by several that have wisdom and compassion for my plight. For this I am grateful...for it is through their guidance and challenges to my thoughts and conflicts, I am seeing light...hope...possibilities that I can indeed, learn self forgiveness and trust...the ability to forgive and trust others...I can heal and strengthen the super powers provided to me and my care in this life by the higher powers.

I thank those of my tribe here that have lent support as I have withdrawn...your words and kindness touch my heart...it gives me strength to know that there are those out there in this world fighting their own battles, that still stop to lend a hand and strength to the likes of me.
Thank you.
You are in my prayers...although I admit, they have become weak and with struggle of late...but I do hold each of you in my heart.
I pray someday I may have real names and faces to place to many of you so that I may grasp in a firm handshake or hug and tell you from my lips to your ears...Thank you. You have pulled me up, and though I stumble, you were there to pull me up again.

Sleep in peace this night.
You are in my prayers.

“We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves.” Dalai Lama

[mulesqb]

There is much to be gained in the healing power of forgiving another...
But I believe that in order to be able to truly forgive another...we must learn how to and forgive ourselves.
Many of us say we forgive others...but do we say that we do and then walk away?
With space and time we may simply be forgetting...not forgiving.

Very important statement here SH_. I hope it's ok I pop in here for a minute as you seem like you are at a crossroads.

I totally agree with you on how many of us say we forgive others and walk away. To me, true forgiveness (whether of one's self or another) is measured in actions not words. And honestly when there is infidelity involved it may be the toughest thing one ever faces.

I also agree with you about time causing one to forget rather than truly forgive.

I think you are on this and your mindset is in the perfect place. Don't stop.

I mentioned to CT, forgiveness is not dropping the issues and running back to your spouse. It's about true growth as a person. I mentioned on another thread, that personally it took me 3 -4 years to truly forgive. That doesn't mean I wanted my XW back. Not at all. It meant that I was able to forgive her for hurting me badly and putting the sitch behind us. Believe me, when she sensed that I truly did that, she looked at me a lot differently. She has changed drastically since those days. I have no doubt she regrets things she did. I think she is shocked at how much I have grown as a person over the years.The thing is, my growth as a person helped me to see what i truly find attractive in another person. It has made my current R so much better for me.

You can handle this SH. I know you can. I read your posts and see a person gaining control.

Strength and Honor.

Mules