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Greetings Everyone! I have been lurking around these forums for a few months, read DB & DR, had three coaching sessions, and I am seeing an IC. I am doing 180 to the extent it is consistent with the advice from my DB coach, who is advocating maintaining a friendship. This is my first post.

Here is some background on me and my sitch . . . I am in my mid-40's, my husband in his late 40's. We have been together for seventeen years, married for fifteen. Initially, we decided we did not want to have children, but then after about 7 years we changed our minds. Due to my age, we had some considerable obstacles and needed medical assistance.

In the Spring of 2013 we tried IUI, but was unsuccessful. Next, we did one round of IVF, but was unsuccessful. In the fall of 2013, we tried another round of IVF. About this time, his father had a series of strokes that ultimately landed him in an assisted living facility. I got pregnant, but miscarried. I was a wreck. I felt like someone had chopped off my legs.

We decided to use an egg donor to try to conceive. My younger sister volunteered to donate. We signed up for another IVF cycle.

Meanwhile, his father passed in 2014. He was understandably devastated, but seemed to soldier on. Following his father's death, we did the egg donor cycle with my sister, which did not work.

In the summer of 2014, after an extensive vetting process, we found another egg donor. My son was born the following summer.

This past April I discovered he has been having a physical affair with a woman at his work who is 20 years younger. The affair started the summer/fall of 2013.

Initially, he said he wanted to work on the marriage. He cut her off. We went to counseling, but it was bumpy. He was withholding details of the affair and I was pissed (to say the least). Thwn I discovered he was also having an EA with an ex girlfriend that included illicit sexting.

I did everything wrong. I told his family, his colleagues at work, and demanded details. We stayed up late talking and were sleep deprived.

After two and a half months he said he was done. We stopped joint counseling and he said he wanted out. He had resumed communication with his affair partner. However, she was seeing someone else at work by this time. He has been pursuing her, but she isn't having it.

He is now saying he never wanted our son. We never should have gotten married and I "pressured" him. He says he loves me, but enough to work on the marriage (a variation of ILYBIAMILWY?). He says we have terrible communication issues and that he doesn't feel that I need him. He believes that I am not interested in his life.

He was adopted at an early age and his counselor thinks he has attachment issues. He is claiming that he molded himself to whoever he was with because he was afraid to express his opinion out of fear of rejection. He now says he has to find himself. He is saying something is missing within himself, but he doesn't know what it is.

On the one hand he says he needs to be alone to figure himself out, but then he is trying to convince the OW to drop her new bf and be with him.

He appears to be going through a MLC. His counselor has him reading some books, including Finding Meaning After MidLife. After I found out about the affair he bought a brand new car (a minivan I wanted) because he had sex in it with OW. He hated the car. Three months later, he sold it and bought a brand new SUV. He has been obsessed with his workouts (he has always been in shape). He Has been taking a mind boggling number of supplements. By his own admission, in a futile attempt to turn back the clock. He is also consumed with maintaining his appearance.

So my first question is, how do we know its genuine MLC and his thoughts are clouded by all the issues of MLC or are they really in their right mind. It appears MLC to me, but maybe its just wishful thinking he is out of his mind and he will come around.




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Welcome to the MLC Forum! I'm sorry that you are here, but you will get some great advice, suggestions and support here.

I'm going to paste in Cadet's Welcome Message because it has a lot of homework for you to read. But, first, to answer your question about the weight gain...yes, they can gain a lot of weight or lose it. They will look terrible for a time and may even be ill often...this is caused by the depression and in some cases, the weight gain is from drinking and/or eating a lot of fast food or junk food.

So, here's Cadet's Welcome Message:

Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
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Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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FightOn,

It appears that he may be having a crisis from what you've posted. MLC's main ingredient is depression. Depression is about the past and anxiety is about the future. Confusion, acting out, being the mirror image of the person you once knew (exact opposite), spending, drinking, experimenting w/drugs, affairs and sometimes no affairs, but focused on work, a sport, appearance, etc., the list can go on and on.

Everything to him will be seen through very dark glasses and you will become public enemy number one to him. He's unhappy w/his life, the world, friends, family, work and you. There's nothing you can do to convince him that it is him and the depression talking.

It's good that he's seeing someone professionally and is reading the book(s) that the professional is recommending, however, this doesn't mean that he'll snap out of it any time soon. It takes years to build up to the crisis and it will take a few years for him to work thru it and hopefully come out the other side a more mature, responsible man. Just remember, you didn't break him, therefore, you can't fix him.

For now, keep the focus on you, watch and protect your assets and definitely keep tabs on your finances, since he's going to be spending money, i.e., quite a bit if he's in crisis.

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How old is your H? It sounds like it's a combination of things. Right now you've posted everything about him and what he is doing and what he is like. What about you? Tell us something about YOU.


M-43 W-40
2D - 9 and 5

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet a new life.

RECONCILED AND WISER
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Thank you for the quick response Job. I was thinking MLC too, but appreciate input with others with more experience. I am so thankful for all your insightful posts. It has been a tremendous help and very comforting during this difficult time.

I am trying very hard to switch gears and focus on me. I am working on identifying and fixing my issues. It is hard, emotionally taxing work.

I am also holding out hope for our marriage. He has repeatedly said he wants to divorce. I have tried to put it off in order to give things time. But he is on to me. I am not sure what to do. We are still living in our home and sleeping in separate rooms. Should I tell him, hey, if you want a divorce, go file (or something along those lines, but in a non-confrontational way).

Any and all suggestions are welcome!

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I wouldn't bring up the subject of a divorce. If he does it again, say "h, I am sorry you feel that way, however, if this is something you want, I will not stand in your way". Do not help him w/the divorce. If he wants it, he will have to do the heavy lifting.

Sometimes the word divorce is like the brass ring that you reach for on the merry-go-round. They think that this will bring them relief from such an unhappy situation, but they don't stop to realize that the day-to-day life doesn't stop. Sure, he may feel euphoric for about 6 months, but then it will all start to tarnish and the bills are rolling in, responsibilities start to raise their ugly heads and money isn't there any longer, etc. So, if he thinks that la la land has unicorns and faeries, then so be it...but it's up to him to file.

I would suggest that you read HaWho's threads. Her h is in crisis and is living in the "dorm" room at home. She's done an exceptional job of keeping her sanity and she has two sons that are still at home and dealing w/their dad's acting out.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hello there Mr. Bond.

My husband is 48 years old.

To respond, I am 46 years old. I have a fantastic job that I love. It is helping me focus on something other than my marriage. I have a wonderful 15 month old child who I love to pieces.

While all this is happening, I am doing my best to focus on my IC sessions and reading when I can. Right now I am reading Jim Conway's "Men in Midlife Crisis." I am almost done. It's been difficult to GAL when I have to look after my child. (Please don't take that as a complaint, as it's not.) But the way I see it, right now because he is so dependent on me, he is my life. I do enjoying taking walks, hiking, and spending time outdoors with my son. I also have a group of friends who I enjoy.

I am still trying to wrap my head around all of this. It's utterly mind boggling to me. To me it seems sudden, but I know he has been rewriting our history in his mind for a long time.

When I encounter a problem, I am the type of person to dive right in and try to work on fixing it. What makes this so difficult is realizing that there is nothing I can do to fix the situation as a whole. It's completely out of my hands. I can only work on me. I am trying to be the change I want to see.

Through it all, I am trying to be optimistic, but it seems bleak and hopeless. Some days, I just feel like I am fooling myself into thinking that he really is depressed and going through a crisis. It's something I want to believe b/c then I think there is hope the crisis will end and end well. I want so badly for his bad attitude to go away so we can work on the marriage and give it a shot.

I am fighting for my marriage. Despite some of his awful behavior, I do love him so . . .

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FightOn,

You are a fixer and most of us here are fixers. It's difficult not to try to fix his problem for him...but you are right, it is completely out of your hands at this time.

Generally 18-24 months before the BD, something happens to trigger the dissatisfaction in their lives and that's when they begin to become moody, slowly begin changing, and the changes aren't sending up red flags, but a few years down the road you can look back and see what was just a blip on the radar was actually a change. Dissatisfaction sets in and then one day, the BD happens and it does appear to happen quickly to us, but really it had been going on for quite some time.

Try to keep the focus on you and your little one. Conway's book is an excellent one and we have recommended that book, along w/his deceased wife's, Sally's, book as well. I'll post the latest reading list and you might find something of interest in the recommendations as well. However, I urge you to visit the threads and read all you can on MLC and depression. I think you will find a wealth of info on all of the forums.

Here's a link to a thread called Recommended Reading Material. Please feel free to add to the listing.

Recommended Reading Material

You love the man, you just don't love his behavior at the moment. Dig deeper for patience and know that it is not about you at all, but all about him and his emotional and spiritual journey to find himself.


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I am so worried that I will be thrown out like yesterday's garbage as he goes through this journey. It is hard to accept that there is nothing I can do about that if it happens. Ugh.

I have started reading HaWho's posts. There is a term that I don't understand, "temp check." What does that mean? When does that happen? And what should one do when it does?

Thanks again!

Hugs and Peace.

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I'm sorry you are worried about being tossed aside...but understand you are the rose and the ow is the weed. You've got history w/this man and you share a child. The ow shares nothing but a good time and yes, strokes his ego at this time. She's nothing but a crutch/Band-Aid to his ailing soul.

Yes, you can do something...you can live your life to the fullest, continue being the great person that you are and be strong and independent and be there to support your child. Your child needs you now more than ever because daddy has taken a seat on the Mother Ship and won't be back for a while.

You asked what temp check means and I will give you my opinion on the meaning. Others may come along and chime in w/their opinions on this as well. It's when they come around, phone, text or email you to see where you are at in all of this. They want to ensure that you are right where they left you, they want to see if there is someone new in your life and yes, they want to see how you are going to react to them and their nonsense. They do this quite frequently throughout the crisis. Just leave the door ajar and be civil if he contacts you. Treat him as a friend. You can't plan for this action because it will happen when you least expect it.

Now, focus on one day at a time and not too far into the future. Things change on a dime and give you a penny back. They don't know which end is up and will change in a matter of seconds. That's why it is important to keep your mind focused on you, your child and your job for now.

Begin reading your homework and visit the other threads. When you visit the other threads, be sure to post because others will then begin to gravitate to your threads to post to you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Are they really on the Mother Ship (lol!!!) or do we just think they are because it is a convenient explanation for this behavior and they are just truly fed up?

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They become aliens to us because the behavior is not what we have been use to....so, I refer to them being taken as passengers on the Mother Ship. What would you call it? Rolling in the deep? One flew over the cuckoo's nest? Honestly, they become so emotional and irrational at times, they do tend make us wonder about their sanity. It's difficult to rationalize w/someone who is very emotional and angry at the world.

Why would you say that they are fed up? MLC is about their pasts and what transpired long ago. They go back in time to revisit their childhood. It's about childhood issues or something that stunted their emotional growth. It's about not being validated and recognized at that time in their lives, it could be that a sibling was the golden child and got all of the recognition, it could have been abuse, etc. How they are dealing w/their crisis is all about emotions. But, I can assure you, this journey is all about them and what they need to do to heal themselves.

You can only own 50% of the relationship breakdown and whatever you do, do not take on his part of the breakdown because he will most certainly think it was all about what you've done or didn't do to make him happy. Don't drink the Kool-Aid he serves up and yes, they do rewrite history very well.

Now I can understand a WAS being "fed up" in not being heard or recognized in the marriage, but that is a different scenario than MLC. However, you would do the same things, i.e., give them space and time and no contact unless an emergency arises.

Whether you want to call their alien behavior that of an alien on the Mother Ship, pod people or rolling in the deep or crazy/irrational...they become the exact opposite of the people we knew and loved pre-crisis.

I urge you to read the homework and visit around the forum and most importantly, educate yourself on MLC and depression. This crisis will not end any time soon, so buckle up and be ready for the roughest ride of your life. The more you learn, the better you will understand what he's going through.

P.S. I do want to just say this, they do tend to toss us aside during the crisis because the inner child comes out to play and w/that child comes all of the emotional baggage that they have stuffed down deep into their souls for a very long time comes to the surface. The love that they felt for us is then stuffed down into their souls until they are able to face their issues/fears, accept that they had not control over what happened and can then begin to grow up from that time on. For some, they may remain stuck in crisis forever. For now, pray for him and continue to work on you.

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Hi Fighton,

I'm sorry you are finding yourself here, but you will get loads of support and advice from other people that have gone through similar situations. Keep posting, sometimes even journaling helps.

There are a few things that hit home for me in your story. For example the fact the your H says he didn't want a baby after everything you went through. Mine accused me of being negligent and getting pregnant with our daughter (even though we used contraception). He said that he just went along with our wedding, birth of our children, life. Basically he said he suffered throughout our relationship, like he is some kind of hero or Saint. Somehow I heard all of his excuses and didn't let it destroy me, but some things hurt.

Do your reading, post around the forum and do things for yourself.

By the way, regarding your post on MLCer living at home with you, it is very hard, and as job mentioned you can have a look on HaWho's legendary threads, to get an idea on how crazy it can get. My H has a place for most of the week and visits us in the weekend. It is not what I wanted, but it actually works for my sanity. I never thought I would enjoy being on my own with the kids, but the house is so much calmer without him.

Best of luck x


"There's nothing sadder than a conman conning himself"

“There is freedom waiting for you,
On the breezes of the sky,
And you ask "What if I fall?"
Oh but my darling,
What if you fly?”

-Erin Hanson





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I see you bumped up trustingfaiths thread and just to update since I know her personally.

Mr tf is still in the basement and still in MLC.
He has shown signs of emerging from his funk, like
starting to help to parent the children and reconnecting with
the dog.
However he is still in MLC, trustingfaith is still doing well
and living her own life to the fullest.
She has followed job's and cat04 advice,
the basic point is to demonstrate how long MLC can take.
This is a marathon not a sprint.

Here is a list of all her threads on DB if you want to read more.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=25325


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FightOn, I don't have any words of advice for you as I am new here as well. Been dealing with this for the last month - blindsided to say the least. After I found out about H's EA I was devastated and kicked him out. I am not sure what is worse now, having him living somewhere else or having him here frown I too am a fixer and the hardest thing about this is we can't fix it. We can't do anything but sit and wait and have patience. I think that is why everyone says work on yourself. We can fix ourselves and in the end we will be better people for it. I have the hardest time with not talking to him. I feel like if I am not around that he will forget about me. That is nonsense of course. He just has to decide what he wants. My daughter told me that he has our wedding picture on his dresser in his rented room... that must mean something. If he is looking at that every day then he won't forget about me. Sorry for rambling. I look forward to reading your posts smile

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Originally Posted By: Fighton
Cat04, do you really think that if they want out they will just leave, even if they claim finances keep them in the house?
The reason I ask is my MLC'er is still at home. I know I shouldn't focus too much on what he does and doesn't do, but some days are really hard and I need to look for something positive. Anything. Even it's just him being in the house. I want so badly for this to mean something positive. Ugh. I feel like such a loser.


Wow, you brought a blast from the past back...

Do I think they will just leave if the really want out?

I do think they will. And I think that sometimes they will stay even if they don't want to...And I think sometimes they will leave even if they don't want to...

I know, not quite the answer you were looking for smile

MLC, is a crap shoot. You are dealing with someone who has no idea what he wants, because it will change as the wind blows.

It is hard living with a MLCer. Harder than anything you will do.

It requires you really learning how to detatch, how to not get sucked in to the drama, how to not buy into the things you will hear, how not to have expectations about anything, how to just live your life and let him live his...

If you can't do those things, you will lose yourself in the MLC, just like he has.

Please don't use your child as an excuse to not take care of yourself.

You can GAL with your S and without him. Do things that make memories for the two of you. Join a mommy and me group.

Your goal, is to outlast the MLC. And to become the best you that you can be.

Post here, vent, ask questions...

Only you can determine if it is MLC or not. Although if it walks like a duck...

This is the best worst place you can be....



"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
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Hello Everyone! I am having a rough day.

How do you deal with the sadness of knowing your spouse is chasing/pursuing someone else?

How do you know if it's MLC related or maybe it really is the relationship?

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FightOn,

I'm sorry you are having a rough day...you will have ups and downs and that's called the rollercoaster of emotions. It will get better as time moves along, but you are grieving for the loss of the old marriage and w/grieving, it all takes time. Feel the pain, allow it to wash over you and then release. In time, the pain will lessen and you will begin to smile again. It all takes time. There is no special formula for getting through the grieving proves. Each person is different and so will be your grieving period.

If you need to cry, do so. Crying has a way of helping us heal. Go outside and scream at the top of your lungs to release some of the sadness/pain. It's okay to do these things.

Let's see, how did I deal the disappointment of knowing my spouse is chasing/pursuing someone else? Well, first off, it was disappointment and I was one furious lady. When the anger about his being w/the ow would get to me, I would get a pillow out and beat the stuffings out of it. I cleaned my house top to bottom, painted and remodeled my home and I became a workaholic, which allowed me to move up the ladder from one position to three different ones in less than 8 years. I found things that were physically challenging and did them.

I'm not going to say that you won't think about him and what he's doing, because you are in the early stages your crisis and you will be obsessed w/everything that revolves around him and MLC. So, what I do suggest is that you find something that will take your attention away from him for just a while. This will allow you to release some of your stress and maybe you'll find a new hobby in the process.

You should know whether it's MLC related or not. You know your husband and if this is out of character for him and he fits the suggested criteria of a MLCer, then most likely the OP is just a Band-Aid/crutch to him right now. If your husband was faithful the entire marriage until the BD, then I would say that an affair would be out of character for him. If he cheated on you previously throughout the years, then that would be another matter. See where I'm going w/this? We can't tell you if it's a real relationship or not...only you know your h.

As Cat04 stated, if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, then mostly like it is a duck.

Just my two cents.

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FightOn, 5 months down the line and I still can't get my head around the fact that I can do nothing to fix this sitch.

For the first few months I really couldn't understand that this once rational man started making such irrational decisions that were affecting our family without even a second glance!! I realise now after being on this forum since July that he is going through MLC and he believes what he is doing is right for him. When we had the first of many R talks, pre DB, he actually admitted that he knew he was being selfish but that was just the way it was. Like admitting it absolved him of any guilt!

I think this board has really helped me understand my H a little bit better and in turn I feel a little calmer already and I know I need to stop trying to fix things as well!! I'm working in it... !


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

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Coly23, when your H starts making these decisions, does he seem completely certain of himself? My H seems so self assured and absolutely certain about the decisions he is making, but these decisions are out of character for him.

How do we ever know if the decisions are well-reasoned ones or if they are the product of the MLC? Will we ever know? I'm sure they are capable of making some rational decisions. Or are they?

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Hello Fighton,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

It is easy to be conflicted when you have so many emotions and thoughts going through your head! You mentioned that you had spoken with a DB Coach previously. I'm wondering if it would be good timing to speak with them again.

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial.

Cristy
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The Divorce Busting Center
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A Divorce Busting Coach can help you save your marriage, even when your spouse wants out.

Email virginia@divorcebusting.com or 303-444-7004 for more information or to get started right away.
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So an interesting update . . .

Last week H told me that he is considering applying for a job 400 miles away. He told me that he spoke with the head of the company earlier that day (the head of the company used to be in upper management in the company where H currently works).

H speaks with his sister that evening and tells her about it. The following day H's sister calls me and tells me H suggested to her that I would move with H. What?!? I told her there was no way on earth I could do that. IF I were able to secure a job in my line of work, it would be mean starting over from scratch. Which would translate to a huge paycut. I would be totally dependent on H. AND if it did not work out and I decided to move back, I would have to start back over at my current company. They would not take me back at my current position, if they took me back at all. H knows I wouldn't/couldn't start over.

I think he was intentionally misleading her so he would not look like a jerk for leaving his son behind. But I could just be speculating. I suppose this is where is should not believe any of what he is saying.

Two days later he told me he actually submitted the application. He admitted that most of it was done when he first mentioned it to me. (**Thanks for telling me.**)

Today, I happen to be home from lunch. The headhunter called the house looking for him. I later learned they are scheduling an interview, but he has yet to tell ME this news.

I can hardly believe that he would seriously entertain taking a job 400 miles away and leaving his son behind. This person he is now, this coward, astounds me. In a million years, I never thought he could walk away from his child. I never thought he was the type of person that could do this. What is he doing?

I can only guess that in his mind it would be easier to just run away. To start over fresh somewhere else. Leave his troubles behind him. OMG! How could he do this? How could he really think this is a viable solution?

Not only am I completely flabbergasted at this new job, but I am so hurt that he hasn't told me yet.

My heart continues to break . . .

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Sometimes I wonder if maybe my H is just sparing my feelings and not telling me that real reason he is running is because I am really a terrible person and that's why he is running.

I wonder if God sent the headhunter's call to my house as a message to me as if to say "get over it, this is really happening, he is moving on, and you should too." Maybe this is God's way of telling me something.

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There are quite a number of MLCers that move a long distance from where their home base is. Some move from one coast to another and some even move from one country to another. It's running away, hoping that new scenery, new position, new people are what they need to jump start their "good feelings" again. To them, it's an adventure waiting to happen.

He will tell others anything to get them from asking questions about his decisions. Right now, all he's thinking about is himself and what he needs to feel alive again. He may even change his mind and return home in a six months to a couple of years citing that the position isn't what he wanted, or the rent too high, etc.

Why are you saying you are a terrible person? Is that what you think of yourself? If you were such a terrible person, you wouldn't be on this forum trying to understand what he's going through. If you are thinking that this is what your h is thinking about you....well, that's his perception right now, but hopefully it will change while he continues to travel on his journey. BTW, while he's traveling, if you have anything that you need to work on for yourself, now would be a good time to do so. Whatever changes you make, make them for you and be happy w/them. Do not make the changes to win him back because he will see right through them. The changes must become permanent.

The man upstairs has a way of bringing things to light so that we can better understand that this is his journey and that we need to detach and allow them to make their own mistakes in order to learn from them. It's also his way of telling us to keep the focus on us and our families during this time.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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You are not terrible person..proof is you are trying to get help. My Ex ran too ...I think it hurts them to be around us. Remember they blame us for everything under the sun. It is not about you or anything you did.
Take time for you..long hot baths..maybe a margarita or two..and use this time to learn and grow.It does get better I promise

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Thank you Job and Tfish08 for your responses.

It helps to hear other people's thoughts to gain perspective.

I had a session with a DB coach this morning and have been thinking a lot about what he said. Of course, after digesting everything, I now have questions. Maybe someone can help?

1. How do I know when it is time to let go? He seems to resolute, so sure divorcing is the right thing. How do I know if HE has it wrong; perhaps I am in just denial?

2. Are MCLers really so certain of their decision to divorce? He seems so resolute. Like he knows for certain. Again, maybe its me, maybe I am in denial.

3. The DB coach commented that H making me breakfast every morning is a sign of a connection. That H still feels something positive otherwise he wouldn't do it. My sister-in-law says its because he is feeling guilty and is trying to be nice to assuage his own guilt. How do I know which it is?

4. His therapist is encouraging him to run away. I can hardly believe this. Why would his therapist encourage this if he knows its MLC? Does he have some kind of ethical obligation to be supportive no matter what? It makes me think maybe it is the right thing to do.

Thanks again everyone and have a wonderful weekend!

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FightOn:

I am a newbie -- my H moved about a little of a month ago. He stated he was filing ASAP. Then a few weeks ago, he freaked when he saw some divorce print out I had gotten (just for research). Now he says we can start talking about filing after the holidays. I don't know if this helps -- but my H seemed so sure at first but then he changes his mind. Same with the finances -- he wanted responsibility for all his bills, but won't take the steps needed to move them or even change the passwords. He is still only taking a small allowance and leaving the rest of his check in our joint account.


Me: 42
Him: 45
Daughter: 13
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Mine was set on divorce and he got it. He still blames me for a lot but to my surprise he is taking blame now too. I know...I know....hell hath frozen over. I see him about 2 to 3 times a week where before he disappeared almost for a month at a time on the boys. He still treats me like the cootie monster he believes I am...No hugs..no food but hey we can go out to dinner as a family...every week...nuts I tell you.

The MLCers are good mask wearers..who knows what he is feeding his therapist. Mine said i broke his nose 10 yrs ago(never happened)I'm 5'2 he is 6'0' my reach isn't that big for him not to of seen my fist coming.He swears it is true on his life no less...never happened
Some therapists lack the skills to see what is truly happening

You focus on you. Read books..Go out for coffee...i love me some pumpkin spice frapps . Take care of you..
My mom always saids it is best to let the crazy be...better one crazy than 2..
Have fun this weekend and if you need to vent post away

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I think they try to connect because they still have feelings for us AND they feel guilty for some of what they do to us and their families. They are trying to make themselves happier, but making others hurt is hurting them more. What a mess.

That's why we need to just let them be and be the lighthouse when they try to see their way through the dark every once in a while.


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2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
Thank you Job and Tfish08 for your responses.

It helps to hear other people's thoughts to gain perspective.

I had a session with a DB coach this morning and have been thinking a lot about what he said. Of course, after digesting everything, I now have questions. Maybe someone can help?

1. How do I know when it is time to let go? He seems to resolute, so sure divorcing is the right thing. How do I know if HE has it wrong; perhaps I am in just denial?

There is a saying .... I may quit, but not today. This MLC thing is not for the faint of heart and it takes time, like a cake .... you can not just crank the oven to 500 and expect it to come out .... you have to let it bake at its correct temperature and for the amount of time it needs ... this varies with every MLCr out there. To answer your question, only YOU will know when... this is what shocks most LBSs is the fact they have all the power when they feel so powerless in this. You will know .... only you and when you let go you will feel the weight fall off. Know you can not fix them, they must walk this path alone.
Originally Posted By: FightOn

2. Are MCLers really so certain of their decision to divorce? He seems so resolute. Like he knows for certain. Again, maybe its me, maybe I am in denial.
They talk a mean game, in that fogged mind if they could only just be divorced and free it would bring happiness, relieve them of all the guilt and Euphoria is sure to follow as far as they are concerned .... mine yelled D for almost 3 years, 3 separate mediation attempts (total about 5-6 meetings) untill finally she filled for D last month after about 7 months of as much NC as I could have with a child involved.


Originally Posted By: FightOn

3. The DB coach commented that H making me breakfast every morning is a sign of a connection. That H still feels something positive otherwise he wouldn't do it. My sister-in-law says its because he is feeling guilty and is trying to be nice to assuage his own guilt. How do I know which it is?

I will not outright disagree with a DB coach ... but I would lean towards the guilt, I seen this early on but over time these acts of kindness were few and far between

Originally Posted By: FightOn

4. His therapist is encouraging him to run away. I can hardly believe this. Why would his therapist encourage this if he knows its MLC? Does he have some kind of ethical obligation to be supportive no matter what? It makes me think maybe it is the right thing to do.

Thanks again everyone and have a wonderful weekend!

Typically therapists do not understand MLC like we do, so they may see this as a midlife transition and to 'help' him break co-dependency and discover who he really is (Not fully aware he is currently an alien who took over your old H's body)

You may have heard this and might be sick of it but its the truth ... allow him to walk this his way at his pace, work on you, a true act of love would be to give him a better version of you if/when he returns .... the worst that can happen is you are a better person regardless of the outcome.


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W: 47
M16 T26-S8
BD Sept13



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Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
...a true act of love would be to give him a better version of you if/when he returns ....


I want to pull this out because one of the lessons we learn as LBSs on this journey -- on our journey -- is that if we truly love the other person we MUST let them go and do what it is they believe they have to do right now. Yes it hurts, but we have to love them enough to let them go...

But I love what Cali says here about a true act of love. I do love my MLCer exW enough to let her go (and risk that she may not come back), but I also love her enough to know that this gift of time is time for me to learn and grow and become a better person so that when she wakes up she sees a better version of me and not the person she left behind when she left. I also love myself enough to give myself the gift of a better me, and I love my kids enough to give them the gift of a better me. I still hope and pray that my exW is the one who gets to enjoy the new me, but I am becoming a better version of me regardless of what happens in the long run.


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CaliGuy and Jer2911 . . . so so true!

I am working on my DB techniques as hard as I can. I know that my part of the problem was my communication style. I'm a direct and to the point kind of person (harsh start up). I am working on soft start ups which is a 180 for me. It has been such a challenge, but I'm working on it, if not for this relationship, then my next.

An update . . .

He provided me with his itinerary for his trip for the interview. And based on his where he is flying into and when he is flying, I am suspecting that he is taking the OW. There is a lot of down time. Theoretically, he chose the flight times to save money.

I broke down and straight up asked him. I told him that since I was driving him to the airport, it would really hurt my feelings if I was driving him so he could take a trip with the OW. I asked him if that was the case, to please spare my feelings and find some alternative source of transportation. He claims he isn't going up there with anyone or meeting anyone up there. He claims he wouldn't do that. Uh-huh. When I told him I never thought he would be the type of have an affair, he actually validated my feelings! He actually acknowledged my viewpoint.

I spent my weekend GALing. On Saturday I went to a new restaurant for lunch, on Sunday I went on a really great hike with some friends. We went somewhere I had always wanted to go and it was wonderful. On Monday (work holiday), I took my Little One to the zoo with my father.

It felt good to stay so busy. On the other hand, I just wish we could have done these things as a family. I get so envious when I see families together. It just pulls at my heart so much.

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To call this whole experience a rollercoaster is putting it mildly.

I have a question to ya'all out there . . .

On the weekends, H will tag along on outings with my son. Why does he do this? Is it his guilt again? Is he just bored? Or is it confusion?

I know for certain he is still pursuing OW. She is currently in another relationship, but still texts with my husband and talks with him on the phone, and they see each other at work. (I don't get it.) I suspect she is waiting/hoping for him to leave which is why she is hanging on with one foot still in the door.

He did not tell her about the job interview 400 miles away. I don't get that either.

Ugh. I am trying to understand. Understanding makes me more empathetic and patient. It helps make this easier to process when I know "why."

But I'm still up and down and all around . . .

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Yes, it is a rollercoaster ride and as a rider, you determine when you want to step off of it.

There is no telling why he tends to tag along on outings w/your son. It could be any number of reasons: 1) it's a habit formed per-crisis and he tends continuing it; 2) he considers his son his best bud because his son doesn't judge or criticize him for what he's doing; 3) he's bored and wants to do things; and 4) it's a good way to keep tabs on you and what you are doing w/your life. It could be any or all of the above, but it's not worth trying to over analyze. Be grateful he wants to spend time w/his son. Some don't.

He may not wish to tell the OW about the job interview until he is offered the job. If he gets the job, he may want to keep it as a surprise and dangle it as a carrot for the OW to decide to go w/him. Again, no telling why he's keeping it a secret.

Don't try to over analyze his every move of word because it will drive you crazy. They change on a dime and give you 2 cents change. There's no rhyme or reason for what they do. Tomorrow things could be totally different and that's why it's important to keep the focus on you and your family.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hello everyone!

I have a question because I am a little confused at what seems to me to be two contradictory ways of dealing with my MLC'er.

All the advice seems to state to go dark, be mysterious, and don't initiate conversations. However, my DB coach has instructed me to act like a friend would.

Well, to act like a friend, I wouldn't be dark and mysterious. I would be friendly, initiate conversations, and be interested in their daily lives.

Any suggestions? Am I getting things mixed up between how to deal with an MLC'er versus WA spouse?

I really don't know what the best route for me to take.

Thanks in advance!

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Did you read DB or DR yet? The answers are there. You have to put in the work to understand everything and in your own situation.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
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Originally Posted By: FightOn
Hello everyone!

I have a question because I am a little confused at what seems to me to be two contradictory ways of dealing with my MLC'er.

All the advice seems to state to go dark, be mysterious, and don't initiate conversations. However, my DB coach has instructed me to act like a friend would.

Well, to act like a friend, I wouldn't be dark and mysterious. I would be friendly, initiate conversations, and be interested in their daily lives.

Any suggestions? Am I getting things mixed up between how to deal with an MLC'er versus WA spouse?

I really don't know what the best route for me to take.

Thanks in advance!

I would suggest being like a friend you would meet on the street.
Mirror their actions.

Not sure if we are friends but you have not called me up and acted friendly to me yet today.

See what I mean?


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Being a friend to a walk away spouse or a MLCer doesn't mean you pursue them. You give them time and space. Being a friend means listening and not offering up advice until they seek it from you. The term friends to a MLCer is very different from what we think it should be. They want someone to listen and validate them and they do not want to be reminded of what they are doing to us. They are emotionally driven and you can't rationalize w/them.

As Cadet stated, be like a friend you would meet on the street. Be friendly, don't pry and be upbeat As he stated mirror their actions or as I always say follow their lead.

Just remember, pushy friends soon get left by the side of the road and you don't want your spouse to think of you as a pushy/controlling friend.


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Being a "distant" type friend would make it much easier to detach.

My concern about detaching so much is that it gives the impression that I do not care. When I think about it, I guess he doesn't care whether I care or not. He is only concerned about himself and his needs. I originally believed that my giving him that impression it would just encourage him to continue to be so callous toward me, but really, he is going to do what he is going to do regardless. Am I getting it?

Now a vent . . . I found out he has been taking the roses from my rose garden and giving some of them to the OW. Ugh! I want so badly to grab him, shake him, and ask him "Are you kidding me? Have you any sense? Can you not see how callous that is?" I mean, really, how completely thoughtless. It hurts so much that he could just not think at all of what he is doing and who it is affecting.

At times it seems his behavior is getting worse.

Okay, I'm going to try to detach now. Hahaha! Thanks for listening.

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Hello everyone!

An issue has come up that is iconic of a recurring problem in our relationship. This issue has been a problem since he started his affair and I do not understand it.

Could ya'all help me figure out the issues behind this? I really need some fresh eyes and additional insight.

So the issue is this . . .

We were discussing some candidates in the upcoming election for a particular office. (I will not reveal too much because it might identity me/us.) I personally know some candidates, some I know by reputation only, and some I have never heard of. A friend of H's asked him to ask me my opinion of the candidates. I shared my thoughts and experiences with the various people I knew and worked with and shared what I knew of the reputation of the others. There was one race where I did not know either candidate or know of them. One of the candidates works for my company the other candidate works for a different company. I told H the pros and cons of each from the perspective of the different companies they work for and what their experience levels would likely be. I also told him that I thought the people who work for the other company are probably smarter than the people in my office because they clean up the mistakes that we make in our company. H replied that does not necessarily make them smarter.

The issue is this, frequently, when I express an opinion about something, he comes in and fights with me about my opinion. I feel like he was deliberately trying to pick a fight with me.

I KNOW the real issue is not whether in fact the people from this other company are indeed smarter than the people in my company. But what is the real issue? I just cannot seem to figure it out?

Does he just want to prove me wrong in something? Does he think I am over generalizing?

What gets me is that he has NO experience working with the people from the other company, nor has he ever met or talked with them, and I do. What gives? Help please!

As a side note, I did a 180. Rather than flame out, I responded that his comment is true and that I must just be lucky because the ones I have worked with are really smart.

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"when I express an opinion about something, he comes in and fights with me about my opinion."

I'm not sure where you thought he was "fighting" your opinion. He has opinions just as you do. Did he say your opinion or statement was "dumb" or "stupid"? if not, then you probably just have a difference of opinion which two people are entitled to have. Even married ones. Sometimes spouses believe that they should always be of like mind. Doesn't work that way.

He's got his answers based on his background, experiences, etc. Just as you do. It could be anything from political candidates to which laundry detergent is better.


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Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
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Hi fight

Was you H the type to create a fight pre mLC or is this new behavior

If it new, it may be the crises..A lot of Mlcers will to prove us wrong or start a fight so they can justify a reason for leaving

Either way- you did great by not reacting and making light of it

About being a friend..This may be new behavior for you

I think Its about listening/validating our MLC being supportive without overdoing

supporting them when asked and detaching without judgement the rest of the time

Not asking for anything from them,,but giving when Its appropriate
Thanking them for the little things they may do-

This probably confuses them -but we are being a friend to our spouse who is in a mental breakdown of sorts(MLC)
This creates peace in the R b/c they can pursue their replay behaviors with no interference from us.
the truth is we can't stop it, so we are allowing and standing beside them it b/c we love them
MY DB coach told me a while back to try a behavior and if it brings them closer continue it--If it pushes them away try another behavior
Our goal is to save the M..but whatever the outcome we learn from our choices and I can honestly say I have no regrets--I did everything I could have at that time to be there and help our M and may XH
Then I let go..The results are Gods


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Hi there!

Mr. B - I feel H's behavior extends beyond a mere difference of opinion. For example, if I casually remark about what a beautiful day it is, H will counter with some criticism - ranging from "well it is a little humid" to "there are a lot of clouds in the sky" to whatever. Frequently, he has to counter what I say.

It is quite annoying. And it all started during his affair. He was never like this before.

In my quest to understand - is it me or is it him? Is it the way I am saying things to him (because I don't have this concern with anyone else)? I found a name for what he does; it's called Oppositional Conversation Style (so named by Gretchen Rubin).

I don't understand it. I would like to because I would like to find a way to counter it or stop it. I would like to know what I can do to change it. Perhaps there is nothing I can do to change it, I just need to change my reaction or my perception of it?

Thoughts?

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FightOn,
I'm not expert, but from where I'm sitting, you may have two choices on OCS behavior:

1) ignore his comments and continue on doing whatever you are doing; or

2) tell him that you disagree and shut the conversation down.

Some of this behavior is just "habit" from attempting to speak up and express themselves when they were younger...but it does get to be annoying after awhile. I don't think you are going to change his behavior and you have to remember...you can't control him or his behavior, but you can change the way you respond/react to it.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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So I have another newbie question . . .

We are travelling 2000 miles to visit his side of the family in the coming month.

His family is aware of the situation (i.e., his continued pursuit of the OW and his wanting a divorce). They are incredibly supportive of the marriage and believe he is making a terrible mistake.

His family members have offered to watch our son for an evening so H and I can go on a "date." I have not broached the subject with H.

How would I broach this subject with him w/o putting pressure on him? I certainly wouldn't call it a "date." Or should I just pass?

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FightOn,

Things can change very quickly w/a person in crisis. For now, I would put the idea of broaching the subject of going out for the evening aside. If his family should offer to watch your son while you are there, then that would be the time to say, "hey, do you want to catch a movie or go out for a bite to eat?" However you handle this, you need to pose it as a question that he can decide what he wants to do.

If you say something to him now, he will think that you and his family are conspiring against him, i.e., putting pressure on him to conform to the old him and/or making plans w/o his input.

Just my two cents.


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Thank you Job! It may only be your two cents, but it is worth a lot more to me. I am so grateful for the help. I knew I could count on someone on these boards to help me figure out what to do.

It is so hard to know what to do most of the time so I do nothing. I hardly say anything and I stay away from him as much as possible when one lives under the same roof with someone. In a way, it's a 180 for me. I keep reminding myself that doing nothing IS doing something (I read that somewhere here, I just can't remember who to attribute it to.)

I went to our former couples therapist for a session. He has a lot of experience with MLC. It was nice to talk to someone who just gets it. He was very encouraging and reinforced many of the things I have learned here. I have saved a lot of posts, highlighted a lot in the books I have read, and written notes and I just go over and over and over it to remind myself of everything. There is so much to learn and implement . . . I am trying to change the way I communicate because I want so badly to be better at this.

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Here's a quote that we use around here quite often:

"When in doubt, do nothing"


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Fight



Just read some of your latest posts
You sound good and on the right track

hang In!


married 14 years
H 42
bomb 2/07 IDLYA
D final 3 /09
M ow D ow
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My H has been out of town the part of the week, and the other part, I went to visit my sister. We have not seen each other for over a week. And what a wonderful week it has been. Not having him around has been such bliss. I can really say that I have not missed him. In fact, when I made the drive back home, I dreaded it. I knew I would have to see HIM.

I have been trying to assess what that means. Does it mean I have reached the end of my rope? Does it mean I no longer love him? Does everyone who loves their spouse miss them when they are gone? Or does it just mean I needed a break?

What I do know, is that I do feel more detached. More, “whatever” when it comes to him. I hope this detachment feeling isn’t temporary.

We are visiting his family in a few days. I know this will be a difficult trip for him. Since his family found out about his infidelity, he has avoided contact with them. He just cannot face them. He even suggested that I take our son to go visit them without him because he just could not make the trip. Only after his therapist told him he thought it would be good for him to make this trip did he accede and agree to go.

Before our one week vacation from each other, I had visited with my two therapists. One of whom has a lot of experience with MLC and claims to be friends with Jim Conway. They both told me that I should try to initiate sex with my husband. It has been something I have been thinking about. I have been longing for physical affection from him. It is so weird for me to be in this house, see him every day, talk to him every day, and yet never touch him. Despite my reluctance, I swallowed my pride, tried it (two therapists can't be wrong, right?), and landed flat on my face. He outright rejected me saying he didn’t think it was a good idea. Wow. Talk about feeling rejected. It was why I did not want to try in the first place and here I am. What a terrible idea. Never should have done it. I should have listened to inner voice.

I have been reading a lot of old posts in the MLC section. One thing that has been recurring is the statement that MLC’ers will often “check” to see if the LBS is in the same place they were when they left. What does that mean? What kinds of things do they do when they “check?” And why would they do that?

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Doing a temp check on the LBS is when the MLCer pops by or sends emails, texts, phone calls, etc. They do things to get a reaction out of us. If they come by the home, they are looking around to see if things are the same, remodeled and there are two places that they tend to check more frequently, i.e., the bedroom and the bathroom. Why? To see if someone has taken their place. They are also looking to see if we have changed in any way, i.e., happy, sad, the way we dress, hair style changes, lifestyle changes, etc.

They really don't realize that they are doing this...but they think that we should be right where they left us pre-crisis. Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way and we do have to move forward and live our lives to the fullest, while the Rip Van Winkles of the MLC world live by a slower clock. No one remains the same...we all change during crisis.


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Its funny. I was just speaking to my H's assistant a while ago and she told me how upset and sad H was that we sold the house; it really tore him to pieces. He had told me when he told me he'd filed that I could keep it and he would support me. I was alone in a 4500 square foot house on acreage in the country and my kids are grown and gone. My nearest neighbors couldn't even see the house from their places. I have a take home pay right now that barely paid the phone and electric each month, much less the mortgage. She and I had a laugh at that. He wasn't thinking at all...just wanted one of us to be in it (he said that at one point as we were moving). He also probably wanted to store all of his vehicles and be able to "fix" things. In other words, probably thought I'd just be there as I always had, preserved and unchanged and right where he left me. Talk about the ultimate temp check scenario...no way was I going to ramble around alone in that house so he could find excuses to "visit" or "fix" things and play caretaker.
I have an apartment in town now and NC is a lot easier to maintain. If I need something fixed, I just call the manager.


M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

Kindness, kindness, kindness.
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Our trip to visit his family was pretty uneventful. We spent a lot of time with them which was enjoyable. He told me later that he felt an underlying tension and believed certain family members were treating him different. I didn’t think they were, but did not tell him that nor did I tell him that I believe it is just his guilty conscious. I just nodded and validated his feelings. This is difficult for me especially when I disagree with his perception. In the past, I would argue with him about why he felt this way, press him for specific reasons so I could poke holes in his reasoning. I’m letting go of my need to be right. In the big picture, what difference does it make?

His niece watched our little one while we went out for the evening. It was nice. We went to dinner and a movie. I was really surprised he was amenable to it, but I suspect he viewed it as a break from the family and a “reward” for me for agreeing to the family visit. I’m just speculating. Instead of looking at it how I want to look at it, I am really trying to have no expectations and not read too much into why he agreed to the night out. This is really hard work.

I believe I had an epiphany about something in our relationship. I have read that the issues we faced within our families while growing up shape our current relationships. Oftentimes, we try to heal the relationship issues we had growing up by recreating them as adults. I can’t say I really bought into it, but more and more, I am starting to change my mind. Growing up, my mother was physically and verbally abusive. My father did very little to stop it. In fact, after a particularly explosive incident where DCFS (Department of Children and Family Services) was called, he later explained to me that if DCFS were to get involved again, I would be removed from the home, not my mother. I would be forced to go to a different school and I wouldn’t see my sister or any of my friends. I would probably live in a foster home with people I did not know. I was twelve years old. As an insecure and verbally and physically abused child, this terrified me. And he knew it. Instead of protecting me, instead of living up to his obligations as a parent, he tossed me aside. It was just easier to make my crazy mother “happy,” to go along with whatever she said, whether it made sense or not, than it was to challenge her. I never forgot this conversation. It remains indelibly printed on my brain, along with every detail of that conversation, including where we were, what I was doing, what I was looking at, feeling, and thinking.

I think I helped to recreate this dynamic in my marriage. I helped create an environment where my husband repeatedly tossed me aside and chose someone else over me. Or at least I married someone with such severe abandonment issues and fear of being left behind, he couldn’t ever take sides. Perhaps both are true.

A marriage counselor told us that one of the characteristics of a lasting marriage is that each partner feels like the other partner has their back. I have never felt this way with my husband. When there were conflicts with others, he always seemed to side with the other person or worse, he wouldn’t get involved when I felt like I needed him to intervene.

For example, he has a tempestuous older sister who I do not like. Whenever I am alone she often corners me and makes some kind of disparaging comment. She would make inflammatory remarks putting down my heritage, the fact that I was unable to conceive a child without help, and my physical appearance. It grew very tiresome. Every time I would mention it to my H, he would brush it off saying, “[w]ell, that’s just Amy [not her real name].” He never once came to my rescue. He never pulled her aside and told her to knock it off. He pushed it off onto me saying that he thought that since I am such a strong person who is not afraid of confrontation, that I would just handle it myself. And every time I would explain to him that it is an issue with HIS family member so he needs to address it. I have always known that if I addressed it, she would deny making the comments and I would be labeled as a trouble-maker. He never did anything about these rude and hurtful comments. Not once. Ever. (BTW, have I been unreasonable in expecting him to handle these issues with his sister? Feedback is appreciated and encouraged please.)

There are a several other examples of other incidents, while seemingly insignificant, were important to me. They remain memorable even though some of them happened over ten years ago. I never understood why they bothered me so much or why I was unable to forgot about them. Now I know. He never stood up for me. He never protected me. In my eyes, my H chose the other person over me, just like my father chose my mother over protecting me. And now, my H is choosing the OW over me.

So now what? What on earth do I do with all this? Should I tell him what I see? How do I process all of this? Can we have a successful relationship with this kind of baggage?

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Thanksgiving went as well as can be expected. I cooked and we enjoyed the meal with our son.

His birthday was Wednesday. I gave him a card from our son, but I did not give him one. Nor did I give him a gift.

His mother did not call him on his birthday. I find that kind of odd. He said he didn't think anything of it because he just saw her. Hmmmm, is it me or is that odd she didn't call?

I have read and re read the advice that says not to believe anything they say and only half of what they do.

Can someone help me to understand why that is?

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The reason that we say not to believe anything they say is because they are an emotional and depressive mess and what happens when people are emotional and depressive? Anything and everything comes out when they are angry. They threaten, they say that they are going to file and then don't. They lie like it's a profession for them, they promise things and then don't follow through and they will say things to make you think that you are off your rocker. Their life's filter is black and will say things about you and the relationship which you know is not true. You can't believe anything they say.

As for only half of what they do...they push, scream and push some more and some of them say that they want a divorce or they want you to leave them along w/no contact. Well, guess what...they drag their feet, they don't provide documents to their lawyers, they make excuses for not doing their share of the work for divorce, etc. They don't follow through on what they say that they are going to do for you and your children. Oh, yes, they may say that they are going to do something fun w/the kids and then they don't. They go to the MLCers place and the kids sit in front of the TV or on their ipads and phones while dad/mom is doing something else. In many cases, they just can't follow through on things.

Depression plays a huge role in what they say and/or do. If you haven't done so, read up on depression. Many of them say that they are going to do something and yet, they have absolutely no energy or desire to do it. Their memories become mush and they are forgetful of things in the here and now, but can remember things from the past. Again, depression plays into this.

Bottom line, their actions do not match up w/their words. Actions always speak louder than words.

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Thank you for the response Job. I find it really helpful to understand the "whys" behind the advice. It helps me to remember what to do and why I should be doing it.

We had a little bit of a blow up today. I did some bad DB'ing and confronted him about a lunch date I know he had with OW. He got pissed. Of course. Then he said something I found interesting, he said he did not know anything I was doing in my life, but he believes I expect him to relay in "chapter and verse" everything he does. (Not true, but if he is going to "date," I need to know because that is my boundary, he can move out and date all he wants, but I won't live like that under the same roof). I did manage to maintain my composure enough not to not get sucked into an argument on whether I require him to recite his whereabouts "chapter and verse." He also said, at least twice, that he was fine with not knowing where I was or what I was doing. He said that it was okay with him. (If it is okay with him, then why bother bringing it up? Am I wrong?)

Nonetheless, I had just thought he wasn't interested in knowing what I was doing, where I was going, etc. I thought he didn't care so I didn't think to bother him with it.

I told him that I am grateful that he shared his feelings about this with me because this is information that I did not know before. As a result, I can making changes on my end. And so I am now texting him my goings on. OMG, it is so tiresome, but he seems to appreciate it. He has been sending text messages back expressing interest and asking questions. We'll see. And while I know I should have zero expectations, I will wait to see if he actually reciprocates. Because I won't make this degree of effort without some degree of validation at some point. I will not go down a cheeseless tunnel.

Another thing I was wondering about, was his bringing up what I do a way of forcing the focus off of him, because it certainly seemed to work. And was this projection on his part? Part of me thinks it was and I feel bamboozled for falling for it. He never told me who he had lunch with, so I think I will let it go. For now. Another part of me thinks that maybe we needed to have this kind of discussion and maybe if it changes the dynamic in this regard, it was a good thing. Time will tell.

On a positive note, he texted me this afternoon regarding a change in his dentist appointment. The new appointment time would be during our regular dinner time. I told him that I would like to have dinner together, but I realize he may not feel the same so the choice was his. He rescheduled the appointment for a non-dinner time.

I am starting to feel like he is emotionally stunted and just doesn't know how to communicate his emotions, wants, needs, and feelings. The only way he can do it is when he is angry, almost like it is forced out of him. Family and friends have told me they believe he is stunted, but I haven't really given those opinions much weight, until now.

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I have advised many posters over the years that MLCers have been emotionally stunted at an early stage of their lives. The person or persons who did this are called authority figures. They could be parents, teachers, priests/ministers, coaches, etc., but someone made him feel very insignificant growing up. He wasn't recognized for the things that he did and he certainly didn't receive the attention and love that he so richly deserved.

When the crisis hits, all of those childhood issues/feelings/emotions are coming to the surface because they've been bottled up for a very long time and now need to be let out and faced. Your man/child hasn't grown up emotionally and now he must face those issues, accept and learn that he wasn't at fault for what happened and start growing up.

For now, listen and validate. Phrase your requests for him to be a dinner or any other activities as "h, I know you may have other plans, but we would love to have you come home and have dinner w/us.". This allows him to make the decision as to whether he wants to come home or go to his appointments. Keep in mind, you do not want to come off sounding like his mother...keep the requests light and open for him to make his own decision.

Continue to read the other threads and this may be the time to go back and re-read the homework posting that Cadet created. Each time you read the links, your eyes will open a bit more and what you read will make even more sense to you.


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As Christmas is quickly approaching, I have scheduled our little one to have his picture taken with Santa. My plan is to use this picture on cards to send to family and friends. Ideally, H and I will be in the picture; however, I don't want to put pressure on H to engage in this "family" tradition.

I was considering asking him like this, "I feel it would be nice to send out Christmas cards so the family can see how much son has grown. Would you like to be in the picture with me?"

Ugh, sounds so corny. Suggestions for better non-threatening, no pressure way to approach this?

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I would say something like this "h, I am planning to have photos taken w/our son and Santa on xxx date. I thought it would be nice to use this photo on Christmas cards so that our family can see how much our son has grown. Would you like to be in the photo w/us?"

This leaves the option up to him.


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I tried it! Thanks again Job! And he said he wanted to think about it.

That's better than an outright "no."

The hardest part of this for me has been the detachment and keeping expectations at zero. I have to admit that I am disappointed at his response.

I don't know why I can't seem to this. It is rooted in fear. Fear of what? Fear of losing my M. I keep telling myself that holding on achieves nothing and does nothing to change outcome and I see that, understand it, and know it to be true. So why do I still do it? I wish I knew.

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You have nothing to fear but fear itself. Your old marriage is dead. Your h was emotionally gone from the marriage about 18-24 months before the bomb drop. You've not had that same amount of time to get use to the idea of being separated. It takes time to detach and come to realize that the man you knew is not the man who is walking around now. He is the mirror image of the man you fell in love with. He's different, he looks at life differently than you do and right now, he's living his life the way that he wants and unfortunately, you are not a part of that life.

Give yourself a break...it takes time, but you can't rush the process because it will prolong his crisis. You can't rush your healing. You have to work through the pain and come out the other side. Your h is doing everything humanly possible to skirt around that pain and one day, there will no longer be any excuses and he'll have to face that pain head on and work through it.

Look, I can understand your disappointment because you were thinking he would jump at this opportunity, but you've given him an option and let him think about it for a while. At least he didn't come right out and say no right now. You've got to keep your expectations at zero. He may very well come up w/some excuse not to be a part of the photo and if he does, accept his answer and move on w/the photo session w/your child on your own. The hardest things to learn is lower expectations, detachment and patience. Just as you have choices to make, so does he. We may not always like the choices they make, but we have to learn to accept them even when we know that they are making mistakes. Mistakes is how they will learn and hopefully not make the same ones over and over again.

Continue moving forward and plan to have those photos taken w/or w/o your h being in them. If you feel that you would be uncomfortable w/him not being in the photo, then maybe you might want to consider your child being the only one photographed w/Santa this year. A new tradition in the making.

Whatever he decides...don't change your plans because of his decision.


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Once again, very sage advice Job. Deep down I know I will be okay. I am fortunate enough to make a decent living, so while it would require a lot of lifestyle changes to divorce, I'm not terrified of that (just not looking forward to it). The thing that hurts me the most is my son.

I went through hell and back to have him. I moved mountains to bring him into existence because I wanted a child so badly. God was good to me and gave me something I wanted. Now after all that, I might have to settle on being a part-time mother. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that after enduring all that, I would only get to be with him and help raise him 50% of the time. I have a terrible time with this.

When I think about losing the double income, I think "I can survive;" when I think about losing a partner in life to share the joys and help with the sorrows, I think, "I can survive;" but when I think of losing my son, I lose my mind.

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yes, i completely relate.

we are nearing the 20 month mark and it is easier. my son needs to spend time with both of us. i had to change my way of looking at it from losing my son to sharing him.

(i'm an only child; i do not share well with others)

I know my boy loves his father and needs to spend time with him. i'm working on making my peace with it. some days are easier than others.

hang in there and keep it in the day xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Oh Bttrfly, thank you for the kind words of encouragement.

I think I am at a place where I just have to deal with the reality of the fact that my marriage is over. It's done. He loves this OW and there isn't anything I can do about it.

It's really hard to understand how someone could do what he has done. I feel like I deserve to know why my life blew up. How could someone go through four rounds of IVF and two egg donors to have a child only to be having an affair the entire time?

My focus should be shifting away from trying to get answers to those types of questions. I should be asking why I married a man who could never stand up for me and who, at least by my standards, never made me a priority. I always felt like I was imposing on him. Perhaps I am too needy? Perhaps he is too selfish?

If it weren't for my son, I would have walked away a long time ago. I tried for my son, not for my husband. Perhaps that is a reason why I am failing. When I take my son out of the equation, and I think about what I would do and how I would feel if he weren't here, it seems so very simple.

That's not to say that I don't have issues or that I didn't contribute my 50% to the issues in the marriage. I know that I did.

I have a very long road ahead of me. I wish I could look forward to the ride. My God this is going to be hard.

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Hi fight. I know how hard it is... And the only ingredient to sprinkle on this mess is time... In time you'll start to slowly feel better, but I get how hard it is. Thank goodness for this community. It's the lighthouse for all of us.

I can't recall if someone posted this to you already... But when I think of how stressful it must have been going through ivf, I can see how a MLCer may say f- it and run. What I'm learning the hard way is, they hate responsibility, they hate pressure, they hate commitment.... Anything that disrupts their freedom. It's stinks and it doesn't excuse the behavior.... I kind if chalk it up to immaturity, but the devastation their behavior leaves behind is just unbelievable.

The more I read, the more I learn that this audacious behavior is pretty common and I find it so sad.

I do hope you continue taking care of yourself and your son.


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I think it's fear of rejection. Fear that he'll say no to your suggestions. Do you feel this way when you ask someone else to do something w/you or is it just w/your h?

We all have the ability to make choices and one of the hardest things for me was to accept that my xh could make choices that that didn't include me. But, as time rolled along, I began to understand more and more about the freedom of making choices and if his choices didn't mesh w/mine, I realized that I would still be okay doing things solo.


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Sorry Job, but I don't understand your response. It is probably due to lack of sleep, anxiety, and the fog I'm in. Could you elaborate more on what you mean so I can catch your meaning. I want to understand EVERY piece of wisdom you are imparting.

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Let me put my posting another way...are afraid that he's going to say no to your invitations? Are you afraid that his choices will not always be what you expect, i.e., that he'll not want to do things w/you?

No wisdom today in my posting...just something for you to think about when you are rested up. We need to delve into this "fear" you have a bit more.


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After some restful nights, I understand what you are asking Job. Yes, I am afraid he is going to say no to my invitations. And yes, I am afraid his choices will not always be what I expect and that he will not want to do things with me.

However, this was not always the case. The fears I have materialized after BD. They stem from the concern that he is serious about wanting a divorce. The fear is that his saying no to my invitations means he no longer loves me and will move forward to obtain a divorce.

My stomach turns in knots in the moments between my asking and his answering. Then the fear metamorphosizes into second guessing the reasons why he accepts. Does he want to be with ME or is it Matthew, does he still enjoy spending time with me, what is he thinking, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseam.

It's crazy-making and I need to stop. And I am trying.

Often, to get myself to stop, I will remind myself of the fact that he is in such emotional distress he just isn't himself. His decisions regarding the future and his desires for the OW are based on his emotional turmoil. I am hoping this is true. I guess I can't know for certain if they are or they aren't.

I hate that I take comfort in the fact that the odds are against him if he does divorce me and marries the OW. But it does help me detach. I remind myself that most 29 year old women don't want a ready made family and they don't want to take care of some other woman's child. (Although I am sure there ones that would not mind.) I remind myself that OW has only lived with her parents her entire life and that once she strikes out on her own, would want to be free to enjoy life unencumbered by a child.

My focus should be on myself and my future. I know this. And I am trying. I have created a vision board to help me maintain my focus on myself.

Does anyone think that relying on the thoughts that their relationship will fail to enable myself to detach are unhealthy? Are there any pitfalls?

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Maybe just accept the fact you are spinning, you see it, you feel it ... just own it and when you feel yourself spin try to stop, back up and look at why this is. (Triggers get us all) One by one deal with these triggers, nothing will seem to really work at first but for me just owning the fact I was spinning was the first step in dealing with it ... over time it was less and less frequent and the intensity also tapered off.

Quote:
Does anyone think that relying on the thoughts that their relationship will fail to enable myself to detach are unhealthy? Are there any pitfalls?


My 2 cents ... at the early stage of the game do what you need to do to detach a bit. Then you can start going about it in a more healthy way ... 180, GAL are good tools you have already read but when we spin its tough.
Realize your H is deep in the tunnel and involved in OW, she is absolutely an AD (Affair Down) .... this will lose its luster, a good friend of mine discussing people who date WAY younger said it best "At some point they do actually have to talk to each other" .... not much in common with that gap right?

Hang in there


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Originally Posted By: FightOn
Does anyone think that relying on the thoughts that their relationship will fail to enable myself to detach are unhealthy? Are there any pitfalls?
Pit falls, bear traps, all sorts of nasty things go down that path. I know, I've been there already and have the self-inflicted scars to prove it.

On the other hand, I've gotten some excellent advice to "do what works for you" - if that helps you detach, then go right to it. Just remember though - you could also be wrong.

There was a vet here who has now passed on who came along at a crucial time in my own situation, who listened carefully and gave me good actionable advice. One piece of advice that he gave me that I still treasure can be found here and I think it will help you too:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701609#Post2701609

He wrote to me that it didn't matter what the odds were of any one thing or another happening if you believe in yourself. Believe in yourself and you will get through this. I would also encourage you to read up on something called the Stockdale Paradox. It's helped me and a bunch of other people cope with the time and confusion and pain that we all have gone through.

You can do this. You can be the one.


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Thank you CaliGuy and AndrewP!

Yes, I am spinning. Although, less than yesterday. I was getting too dizzy and just had to force myself off the rollercoaster. Lol!

Stockdale Paradox - wow! Mind blown! It really spoke to me. A huge shout out to AndrewP! The article I read directly answered my question about relying on something that might not come to fruition in order to get me through the trauma. It's okay to do temporarily. Just to get me through a short time period. Enough time to learn to be still and detach. Enough time to learn to recenter my focus onto me.

Last night I sat in my room with the lights off thinking about me. Thinking about my vision board and what I would like to put on it. (Eventually getting a house of my own, starting to date again, joining some single moms groups, and start exercising again) After doing that, I came to a couple of realizations. One was that H was indeed projecting onto me his feelings.

He has repeated over and over that I (me) am comfortable with the situation as it is. Initially I protested these claims, but now I just tell him I'm sorry he feels that way. (I am definitely not "comfortable" with the situation as it is. How in the world can he think I am "comfortable" with him still pursuing OW while us living together under the same roof? I mean seriously, has he even stopped to think about this?) I could not understand what in the world he was talking about and why he refused to accept it when I told him that was not the case. He can't accept it because THOSE are HIS feelings. HE IS comfortable with the situation. He gets to pursue OW and have the benefits of living in the house, double income, son still living with him, etc. He's a cake eater!!!!

Then this morning as I sat drinking my coffee he asked me whether I was going to my therapist appointment this evening. Several minutes later he said there was a Holiday work event this evening and he would like to take our son, but only stay for 30 minutes since it would be close to his bedtime. He told me he really likes to go to these events to thank the employees. (I wanted to ask if OW would be there, but stopped myself.) Mind you, son is 16 months old and he has NEVER taken him alone anywhere outside a walk in our neighborhood. NEVER. Yes, NEVER. Not even to the store.

Initially, I told him that I would just cancel my appointment and he could go to the event. (I really did not want him taking my son to an event if OW would be there.) He replied that he knew these appointments were important to me (playing the good guy) and he didn't want me to cancel so he would just not go. Then he stormed off in a huff. I asked him why can't we talk about it. No response. Interesting.

After thinking about it, I thought I might as well just go to my appointment and let him do what he wants. He says he would like to thank the employees (interpreted by me as meaning it's important to him). Realistically, it is unlikely OW will be there because the event is for a segment of the business that she has nothing to do with. When I told him, he said he won't stay long and might not even go if our son seemed too tired.

Part of me feels like I am being tested or maybe even bamboozled. He is testing to see if I trust him; he is testing to see if I am willing to be flexible about something that he says is important to him.

On the other hand, I feel like he is using son as a prop. If it's so important to him to go, then why not leave son at home so you can stay the whole evening rather than for just 30 minutes? If you want to recognize and thank the employees for their hard work and valuable contributions, then stay the entire evening. It seems to me he only wants to go if he can take our son. Why is that? He's willing to forego the event if son is too tired. That's what I don't get and that's what makes me highly suspicious of his motives. I just don't trust him. Can ya tell?

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Fighton - love your focus on your vision board. Good stuff!

As for him taking your son to the party and all the ruminations there? That's a time sinkhole. (I've been there so I would know!) Rather than thinking about him and his motives (which you can't know [he may not even know them]), could you have used the time off for you? Did you want to go to IC?

Each time your mind turns to him, zap yourself and think: what about me? What do I need right now? What do I want?


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Hawho is spot on .. time sinkhole is a great way to put it.

Read a bit on the boards and especially with the new recruits understand its normal what you are doing but do listen to the advice of training yourself to start moving the focus from your H to yourself.

You know what happens when we focus on something ... it gets bigger ... you need to become bigger. You matter, I was listening to a podcast and I will have to paraphrase here but they said that it is your job at this point to become selfishly self preserving ... meaning you must make yourself, your physical and emotional well being a priority ... they compared it to that drill the stewardesses give us on flights ... in the event of lost cabin pressure, place the mask around yourself first then attend to others. This was a tough lesson for me to learn but I realized I was no good to my son nor my MLCr if I was wrecked.


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Thank you HaWho and CaliGuy.

All your words make sense to me. And I will work to put them into practice. I watched the Shawn Achor Tedtalk on Happiness and it made so much sense. What a brilliant piece.

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Hello. Monday night I had to put our beloved dog down. He has been ill, and the medications just weren't enough to control his condition any longer. He had another episode (don't want to give too many details), and I knew it was just time to end his suffering. H is out of town this week so I had to wake the baby and take my sick dog to the ER vet in the middle of the night.

I am utterly heartbroken over the loss of our dog. The house is eerily quiet, despite having a rambunctious toddler tearing the place apart. There is a disturbing stillness that makes me uneasy. I miss him so much.

H is at a conference two hours away. I called him when I was on my way to the vet. I texted him after our dog passed. He drove home to see me. He didn't tell me he was coming. I was quite surprised. I'm not reading anything into it as I just assume it was done out of guilt since he has been detached from the dog for awhile. H treated our dog like he was a nuisance. He drove home out of guilt; his way of doing penance for his mistreatment. I'm sure of it.

For those of you who Believe, I have a question: I feel like God might be speaking to me through our dog's passing. But I am not sure. At one point I had asked H to move out. He refused and told me I should leave (so thoughtful of him, yes, I will take our child out of the only home he has only known so YOU won't be inconvenienced or financially burdened, I digress.) Our dog was one of the ties that bound me to the house. I felt I couldn't leave b/c H wouldn't take care of him very well.

So now it has me wondering if our dog's passing isn't God's way of saying it's time for me to leave.

But I am also wondering if I am not hearing the message clearly because I am afraid or because that isn't what God is saying.

I am afraid. No doubt. But I am just not sure if there is a message.

Thoughts? Give it to me please.

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"The Signs" ... its a very hard road to travel on, atleast for me. I find myself constently praying for wisdom and clarity to see what it is He wants me to do and the direction He wants me to go .... like this one often you could take a sign in any way you would like it. On one hand you were shown that surprisingly your H was there ... on the other its the one bond you feel that ties you to the house. (But you do contradict stating its the only house your child has ever known right?)

The signs are hard .... seems all the signs presented to me preach patience though I have lost 95% faith in my M, there is still that 5% that reminds me "With God all things are possible"

So lets just look at the issue at hand .... to leave or not to leave. I would say read up here enough you will see the trend is the MLCr is the one to go ... not you. You stay put and if he wants out then he takes off ... you are the rock in this and the rock does not move ... just my 2 cents.


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I agree w/Cali...if anyone is to move out, it should be your h. He's the one that's not happy and off in Peter Pan's world, and that means him traveling on the wind and visiting the island of lost children.

I'm sorry about your dog. It's tough when you lose a pet that you loved and were attached to, but I don't see this as sign from the heavens for you to move. I see your pup's passing as the humane thing that you had to do for his/her quality of life.

Again, if he wants to be a single man, then he should be the one to leave. Don't disrupt your life or your child's life by moving.


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FightOn - I am so sorry to hear that your dog has passed on. I like to think that he is waiting just across the Rainbow Bridge to join you again. Pets are family and losing them hurts. Their lives burn bright and fast.

Around BD2 my beloved elderly cat took a turn for the worse and I let him suffer for too long I think. I remember telling W that I had lost so much that I couldn't stand to lose anything more. I still clearly remember the day I held his paw as he crossed across the Bridge himself. He rests under the lilacs in the back yard now. My W never visited his grave that I know of although she kissed him goodbye before she left for work and did give me a hug. Shortly after that W moved out. I don't know but I felt that she didn't want me to face the loss of my cat alone.

This is all part of the journeys that we would travel through life normally. I remember a story about a man who was imperiled by a flood who said "I have faith that God will save me". A police man came, he turned him away saying "God will save me". A fire truck came, he turned them away. As the waters rose and he drowned and came before God he asked "why didn't you save me"? God answered, did you not see those who I sent? The moral being (in my mind) that God has given us hearts to love with, minds to think with and it is up to us to use these gifts.

Sending blessings and kind thoughts of sympathy to you.


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So Sorry about your dog

It makes sense for the person who wants out to leave the house and LBS stay

Im not sure about signs and I understand your curiosity ..I always try to look for messages also

I think some signs may be right especially if a door opens easily :
like a new job we didn't apply for opens up
or a person suddenly calls that we were thinking about
or someone appears with information we need to know-


This is especially important to keep things stable for the kids-
I think it has meant a lot to my kids that we never moved and the only thing that changed in their world was a their dad
have a good night-


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Thanks to everyone for the condolences. I am grateful for feeling like I am understood.

I think my looking for signs and direction is because I am so lost and I am looking for an assurance that I am going to be okay. I think I am looking for a clear path to take. There is none, is there? I also think I am struggling with the fact that I have no control of outcome so it's reassuring to know that someone else does and they won't steer me wrong. While intellectually, I know that I will be okay no matter what happens, I don't feel it in my heart, yet.

Yesterday and this morning I have begun to think more about what I need and what I would need from H if we began to piece our relationship back together. When I think about my needs, they seem so great compared to his capabilities. He's clearly nowhere close to working on his issues.

Last week he took our son out to his work event. I later found out he had called OW and asked her if she wanted to meet son. Thankfully, she had the sense to decline. H manipulated and lied to me. Again. I have a hard time understanding how he justifies this to himself. Whatever the reasons he gives himself to quiet his dissonance must be laced with delusions and falsehoods. I don't want any part of this madness. If I step back and look at all this, it's insanity, pure and simple. This is not the man I thought I married.

Given how far he has fallen, it is difficult to imagine he will be able to stand again. I have a hard time seeing it.

I think I feel like I'm loosening my grip on the rope.

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FightOn:

Thanks for the visit to my thread and your kind words. I fully know that lost feeling. You can be sure though that you will be okay in time. As I read once, you've survived 100% of the bad days.

You do in fact have control. You have full control over yourself and your own actions and decisions. While you have no control over your H and the path that he is stumbling along know that it is your choice and your choice alone to decide on whether you want to work to save your marriage or walk away.

I often write on what we are going through as a journey and many of my past threads have that as part of their theme. The first and most important thing and I and others have written about it is that you need to first find yourself. Know yourself, love yourself, respect yourself. Once you have done that then you can start looking outward and forward.


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I have been reading Solo Partner and Love is Never Enough. These two books have been incredibly helpful to me.

Along with Love is Never Enough I have been doing some readings my therapist has given me on cognitive behavior. I am gaining a clearer understanding of my role in the demise of our relationship. The subtle changes that took place over the years, my reactions to those changes, along with my own baggage and issues from childhood certainly took a toll. It all had an impact on the way I communicated and the way I perceived what was happening. I wish I knew then what I know now. All I can do is continue to work on me.

I am still mourning the death of our dog. It's interesting, but H was gone all last week at a conference/training. Our son asked for the dog every day, but never asked for his "dada." They saw each other for the first time after almost a week's absence and our son didn't react. He's so used to him being absent. How sad.

Saturday evening we took a boat tour to see the Christmas lights in the harbor. Our son loved it. Even though it was cold, it was a lot of fun. H said "thank you" afterward and told me how much he enjoyed it and was glad I booked it. Huh?

Earlier in the day we went to an outdoor store so I could look at and try on kid carriers (backpacks to put your kid in while hiking). I found one I liked and the salesperson took it to the cashier. H took our son to walk around the store while I waited in line. When I got to the front of the line H appeared and insisted on paying for the carrier saying it was his Christmas gift to me. What?!? Guilt for being gone all week? Guilt for not being there when our dog passed? Guilt for just being a MLC jerk? Lol! Who knows. I'm trying not to read anything into this, but it's hard. And now I have to scramble to get him something.

He worked an overtime shift on Sunday. In the morning he called me from his desk line to ask me if I was going to the store. Normally, he would just text me or call me on his cell. Was this his way of letting me know he was really at work and not with OW? He even texted me on his way home to let me know he was coming home. Another, what?!?

Every year at Christmas my sister's family and I rent a house in the mountains. We even bring the dogs. It'll be sad this year as I won't have any dogs with me; it will be bittersweet, as I need another break from H.

It's hard to loosen my grip on the rope when he does stuff like this. I'm getting mixed messages and it's making me uncomfortable. I don't trust him or what he's doing. Is he buttering me up because he plans to drop divorce papers on me after the New Year and he thinks if he's nice, things will go more smoothly? Probably. I have to stay focused on me. Focus, focus, focus . . .

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I know it's difficult, but try not to over analyze what he's saying and doing. Holidays tend to bring out some unusual behavior w/them.

Solo Partner is on our recommended reading material thread.

Even though your dog has crossed the rainbow bridge, you still have many fond memories of the time you spent w/your pet. However, if your sister brings her pup, you can play and love hers during your stay.

Keep the focus on you.


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FightOn - My own W became very open about where she was at one point - except when she wasn't. I have no idea why she suddenly decided to do that but she certainly was still seeing OM.

It's the "believe none of what they say and half what they do" thing. Even when what they say happens to be the truth.


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AndrewP - oh, please don't misunderstand, I KNOW he is still communicating with OW. I just think his behavior is . . . weird. I often find myself repeating "believe none of what they say and half of what they do" just to remind myself.

I woke up this morning with a pit in my stomach. It was filled with dread knowing I would have to see him. Luckily, he left for work earlier than normal so we didn't have much interaction. I am leaving with son on Thursday to visit my sister and her family for Christmas. The day can't come soon enough.

I am really looking forward to taking some long beautiful hikes with my family and eating some delicious food. Maybe we'll get some snow, too.

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Merry Christmas FightOn xoxoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
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Hi Everyone! Holiday greetings.

Son and I had a wonderful holiday with my sister, her wife, and their son. It snowed so it was a white Christmas. My sister and SIL helped out a lot with my son so it was really nice in that regard as well. SIL and I went to see the new Star Wars movie, which was awesome. A few hikes, yummy food, and egg nog. I really am very fortunate to have them in my life.

H announced last night that he isn't going to therapy anymore. He doesn't think it's helping nor does he think the therapist is very experienced. I don't want to mindread or try to speculate about whether this is true or not. What I do know is this isn't good.

I also discovered he is having sex with a married co-worker. When we were "working on the marriage" I combed through his cell phone records and found her number coming up fairly regularly. He denied anything was going on between them . . . another lie. When I found out, yes it hurt, but it really didn't surprise me.

When I step back and I look at this whole situation and I look at how far down the rabbit hole he is, it is hard to imagine him ever coming out of this.

I just cannot see it. Especially since he isn't going to therapy anymore.

I am losing hope everyday. But I will say this, it makes it much easier to let go, that is for sure.

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I have had several days to process the latest developments and I must say, it is so much easier to distance myself from H when I look at the big picture. He is lying to everyone in his life. Including OW.

With all the lying and manipulation they do, how do they live with themselves? I am sure there is a lot of justification, denial, and compartmentalization going on, how else could they do it?

I have decided to go very dim. I feel going dark would be too antagonistic because we still live under the same roof. Over the New Year's weekend, I took son to an indoor play gym (just him and I, no H) because it was pouring rain on Saturday. As I was putting shoes on son, H hung around a little too long, seemingly waiting for an invite. I ran some errands afterwards, including picking up a bourbon my sister introduced me to. I felt like such a bad parent for dragging my 18 month old through the Total Wine store (or maybe that makes me a parent who knows how to stay sane?). Lol!

On New Year's Day, son and I went on a hike with some friends. This group of friends are all dog owners. It made me miss my dog so much. Son went nuts when he saw all the dogs. He loves them so much.

I am waiting to see what happens with H before I decide to get another dog. Having a dog will reduce my housing options and so I am not ready to be tied down/limited like that just yet. I think I need a little more freedom. I hate that I have to put this aspect of my life "on hold." Perhaps there is another way for me to think about this?

On New Year's Eve we took son out to dinner. It felt weird for me. I did not like it. I did not like being there with H. I'm not sure I can do that anymore.

I am not sure if what he is doing fits the definition of cake-eating. Regardless, I feel like I am at the point where I have to start doing something different. Some of it is because I do want to give him a taste of what life will be like without me in it, but also because I don't like being around him all that much knowing what he is doing (lying, manipulation, cheating).

I would love some feedback, including 2x4s if necessary. Is it wrong to go dim for these reasons? Should I be looking at things from another perspective? Is there a consequence I should consider that I do not see right now?

I cannot believe this is the person he is now. It makes me wonder if he has been like this all along and I just missed it? I am also wondering if the cheating has been going on with other women and for longer than I know. If the M doesn't survive, it won't matter; but if it does, I might have to live with the fact that I will never really know. So I ask myself, could I live with that level of uncertainty about something so important.

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So eleven days into the New Year and the house isn't up for sale. Yeah! Small victories. Lol!

I spoke with my DB coach and had a nice session. She brought up something that I had been thinking about and some family had mentioned. She mentioned the possibility that H is either a sex or porn addict.

The funny thing is, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe because it would explain a lot. I have no concrete evidence that this might be the case, but the fact that three other people, none of whom know each other, brought it up, certainly causes me to raise an eyebrow.

This is probably one of those questions that will never get answered. Of course, I would love to know because it would answer some questions. Would it change my decision to stand? I am not sure. From what I know about these kinds of additions, they are very hard to kick and subject to many relapses. And knowing that, I don't know if I could do it. Since I don't know either way, there really is no use taking up any more real estate in my brain thinking about it.

Overall, the session went well. It helps to be reminded that this is his crisis, these are his issues, and it isn't me.

In the meantime, I'm keeping keepin' on. Hiking, spending time with family and friends, reading, and working on me.

I read something from HB that really inspired me, it was something along the lines of "wait without waiting, stand without standing still."

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FightOn - I thought I'd just stop by and say "hi". You seem to be doing fairly well mentally but struggling with the "limbo". That's perfectly normal.

I would suggest that your H is indeed "cake-eating" being under the same roof but being able to play in his fairy-tale world too. I don't really know what to suggest. Turning into a screaming harpie is probably a bad idea but making his actions have consequences might be a good one. I'm not sure what to suggest though.


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Hi Andrew P! Thanks for stopping by!

Yeah, cake-eating is the perfect way to describe what he is doing. My DB coach said to wait it out and the affair (now affairs) won't last. I have faith and believe what she is saying, but then there is that little voice in the back warning me to prepare for the worst.

This is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. And what makes it even harder is the knowledge that my family will be separated.

I am keeping some very simple mantras close at hand:

1. Don't think too far ahead into the future
2. Back off and let him be
3. Focus on myself and my beautiful son

I figure if I can hang on and just do these things, things will work out one way or another.

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I am looking for some advice on how to proceed and what to say . . . So here is the sitch . . .

Last night when H was putting son down for bed, son started crying as I left the room. Son was holding his arms out and crying "mama, mama, mama!" H commented that son just doesn't care about him and isn't interested in him. While this may be partially true, it isn't completely true. When H came home earlier in the evening, son ran to him and hugged his pant legs and repeated "dada, dada."

I tried affirm to him that son does indeed care about him. But I don't think he believed it. Not surprisingly and not that I expected it to. I should have immediately brought to his attention son's reaction when he came home, but didn't think of it right away.

My question is this: Should I bring it up tonight at dinner to try to help? If so, how can I gently bring this subject up?

Admittedly, this is a sore subject with me for a number of reasons. One, I have a really hard time validating and trying to bolster his fragile ego when he treats me like garbage. Two, this has been a recurring issue in our marriage. In the past, I would make suggestions on how to help him and he would just ignore my suggestions. I would get so frustrated that he would complain about something, but then do absolutely nothing to fix the problem. It's like he would just want to complain - I don't get it. If the problem bothers you enough to complain, I don't understand not wanting to find a solution or at least trying to do something different.

So should I bring it up again? If so, how? In the past, I would offer suggestions so a 180 for me, would not to give advice (and I know I shouldn't offer advice for a MLC spouse), so what, if anything, should I do? And this is sure to come up again as he frequently whines about son's lack of connection to him so any tips on how to handle this in the future would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help!!

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If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't bring up the issue again. You are already aware of his chronic complaining about things and not taking any action to correct/fix his complaints.

He already thinks that his son doesn't care about him and let's face it, no matter what you say, he's already formed his own opinion of the situation. Your child is very small at the moment and can only show his father that he cares by pulling on his pants leg. If he were older, he would be able to say I love you daddy...but he can't.

Some people are constant complainers and do nothing to help themselves. I still think it's best to just let things be. The next time he raises this issue w/you, why not just ask him "what makes you think your son doesn't care about you?" Ask the question and put it back on him to tell you just exactly why he feels that way.


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Thank you Job! Your response makes sense, in a MLC kinda way. Lol!

I would like to ask you two more questions. The first one relates to a conversation on HaWho and Altair's thread that has recently come up regarding the MLC and the six month high they feel after BD or divorce. It seems pretty consistent among MLC'ers. Is this consistent with your experience? What can you tell me about it?

Also, I have another situation for which I need some guidance. I have a standing appointment with my IC for a certain day of the week at certain time. H knows this. Every other week he has this day off so he is always willing to watch S on those days. On the days he does work, he has told me that he is willing to leave work early so I can go to my appointment. However, there have been a couple of instances where he has been late and I have missed my appointment.

I have recently come to realize that H is passive aggressive. I believe this lateness is a form of it. I also believe he may be attempting to force a confrontation by making me angry about missing the appointments. This is likely his way to force a conversation about D. (Since BD whenever we have a disagreement he has brings up D and how frustrated he is that we haven't discussed any of the details.)

While part of me would like to have a discussion with him about his being late, I fear it will escalate and he will bring up D. I have been thinking that the better way forward is to either just go to counseling every other week, or to ask my parents to come one day a week and watch S while I go to my appointment. By going my parent route, I think I can more easily minimize any disagreements as there will be nothing to disagree about. It is something I can simply do without any need for his input or help.

With what I am learning about MLC and passive aggressive behaviors, I am thinking I should ask my parents to watch S and leave the issue alone. What are your thoughts? And of course, if anyone else has any thoughts, please, please chime in.

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FightOn - In my own case about 6 months after starting her affair my STBX was very much on top of the world believing that everyone loved her and supported her. I was treated with a fair amount of disgust and scorn.

This turned on a dime after I wrote her a letter begging her to reconcile she became depressed which was the theme for the next month that we were under the same roof. I don't know for sure how she did after she moved out but reports were that she was struggling and unhappy. I have no clue if my letter was the catalyst or reality or something else with respect to her mood shift. I do know that watching her face when she read my letter that I was able to see her mood shift to gloom and depressions.


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A few people have posted about their MLCers and the 6-9 months of euphoric behavior they exhibit when they run away from home and after a divorce. This is very true for a majority of them. It's called "freedom". Freedom to do whatever they want and w/whoever they want. They no longer have the pressure of us nipping at their guilty little minds. It does tend to wear off and life gets back to a normal routine of working, spending money on necessities and cleaning up and yes, even taking care of their children on their own.

I would suggest that you find someone to take care of your children on the days he's offered to watch them, i.e., the days he works. As for the days he's off...you can still have him do so, however, if he's late those days, then you will either need to point this out to him in a nice way or find someone else to watch them. You can't rely on him, nor can you have expectations that he's going to act like the old h and be there to help you.

The lateness could be a PA move or his work is keeping him busy. There's no way to tell...at this time. Get a backup plan in place and use it. If he says something, you can always say "h, I've had to cancel a few appointments because you've been late on the days you've worked. So, to keep from canceling my appointments, I've asked XXX to watch them on those days".


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I recently finished reading Living With the Passive Aggressive Man by Scott Wetzler, and boy, oh boy, did that book hit the mark for me. As I began to read it, I realized this is exactly the dynamic that is/has played out between H and I. Based on the book, the unfortunate aspect of being a passive aggressive man is that there is little I can do to change the dynamic (the book suggests confrontation when it occurs, but with MLC, I am not sure that would be helpful). The WORK has to be done by the person harboring the passive aggressive tendencies, which consists of learning to express the unspoken anger motivating the passive aggression. Ha, that isn't happening. The book has stated that oftentimes, the person doesn't think he/she is doing anything at all. This fits my husband to a T.

The fact that he doesn't see anything wrong with his behavior is discouraging. I am afraid I will just have to let these instances go b/c when I bring them up (and perhaps I am inartful in the way in which I bring them up), seems to only stir up more anger and divisiveness. My work comes in the form of learning how to effectively deal with this issue. I must think of constructive ways of handling the conflict.

While I don't feel any resolution because H still seems to be engaging in the same ol' dysfunctional way of relating, at the very least I know what it is. Perhaps, more importantly, I have something concretely identifiable that I want addressed should we continue to stay married. The whole PA dynamic is crazy making (as the book describes). I feel a little more free because I understand something I didn't before. I feel like I have a target and I know where I can aim.

PS - H attending another training out of town this week. Probably skirting around. Oh well, at least I have a break from him.

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Hi, interesting reading - and ... is also recommended in this area...

When I read what you post I think - he will decide to change or he will not and that's up to him.

The part to focus on for you is your own sense of self and your own boundaries and what's okay for you.

I read once that it can always be helpful to give the option to say no - ie: suggest doing X, but let him know he can tell you if that doesn't work for him. Equally you can let him know - pleasantly - if something doesn't work for you.

Modelling the desired behaviour may also be an option - and a chance for you to practice those skills. And if he is/has behaved in a PA way, perhaps you could pleasantly say - 'you're always welcome to let me know if there's something you need' - or similar...

So - in essence - good to educate yourself and change yourself. How you approach an interaction affects the dynamic regardless of whether he chooses to change.

smile

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...book is an excellent one to read. I read it many, many years ago and it truly opened my eyes to my xh's PA behavior. One thing you need to understand, you can change the dynamics of your situation if you don't fall into his hole w/him. If he's late all of the time, then you have a Plan B and go w/it. In my case, my xh was late for meals, so I started eating w/o him. Every time we were planning to go somewhere and had a time to be at a specific function he would run and sit on the toilet and make us late. So, what did I do? I finally got fed up w/the behavior and advise him that I was going to go on to the function and if he wished to attend, he could drive himself. Guess what! He started being on time.

PA is a "learned" behavior for childhood. It's when a child has been basically told to shut up or do what I told you to do w/o being given an opportunity to express themselves, i.e., sound familiar? It's a bit of an emotionally "stunted" individual and that's part of the MLC mix because these folks were emotionally stunted.

So, instead of nagging him about what he's not doing, find other ways around them and if he says something just say, I couldn't wait any longer or I had someone come by and repair this or that, etc. PA individuals can change, but it takes a lot of patience and rubber band snapping on the wrist.

BTW, you weren't going crazy living w/a PA man...now you have a better understanding that it wasn't you...but him.

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Thanks Sotto and Job for your comments.

Yes, I need to keep remembering that I can change the dynamic by changing my responses. I will work on that in my mind and with my therapist. Thank you for the suggestions. I will certainly try them on for size and see how they work.

And thank you both for the validation. I really needed to hear it. For far too long, I thought that I wasn't getting my message across to him. I always knew there was more to what was going on, but I just could not put my finger on it so I internalized it and blamed myself. I work in a profession that requires me to communicate both in the written word and verbally. The ideas I have to convey are often complex and I manage to get the job done. I could never understand how I could not get through to H. I felt inadequate, small, and stupid because I couldn't do it. "What is wrong with ME?" I continually thought.

This realization has also helped me to lessen my grip on the rope. This behavior is completely out of my hands and it is so freeing to have this knowledge. It was not my doing. This anger/frustration/whatever it is that is inside of him; he, and he alone, needs to learn to acknowledge it and learn to how to cope with it. All I can do is work on my reaction/non-reaction to it.

It is all a bit saddening as well. When I look at the large hill he has to climb to get out of this mess, I am not confident he has the ability, tools, or ego strength to do it. Especially without professional help. It's like climbing Everest in flip flops and board shorts. He is ill-prepared and ill-equipped and therefore doomed for failure.

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Whoops, I forgot to ask you Sotto, what is ...?

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Loosening My Grip

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