Eating Life with a Big Spoon

[HaWho]

Here's the link to my last thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2706254#Post2706254

Hi Esame - nice to hear from you.

Well, this weekend h is in again in the dorm room ALL weekend long. So far he has been outside those 4 walls for all of 2 or 3 hours. He is listening those same songs from last weekend. (The boys and I watched football and I intentionally turned the volume up to block it all out. If the TV wasn't on, I played cheerful music.)

And at S11's game, h was back to headphones on (during the whole game) and standing off all by himself. That, too, is how he was back in the spring. Other parents took note. He certainly stands out.

Meanwhile, I had a productive weekend. I ran errands and cleaned the house. S13 made a really nice dinner on Saturday. He is getting to be such a good cook!

The other day just after I made dinner I wasn't feeling well. S13, without being asked, cleaned up the whole kitchen! He put all the food away, cleaned all the pots and then brought me up some tea. I am so proud of the little man he is turning into and I happily told him so. S11 came up to keep me company. I am fortunate. They are really thoughtful, good boys.

Sometimes it surprises me given the dysfunction going on down in that kooky dorm room. I hope it is true, for all our sakes that it just takes one strong parent to pull our kids through this hot mess. I see it happening in other threads and I remind myself of this constantly.

I am going to leave the house for a hike because I feel the urge to barge in there A-Team style to tell him that he is lost, depressed and paranoid.

[bttrfly]

hang in there Ha ... I didn't want to add to the last thread as it was over 100 posts. Honey I have no freaking idea how you do what you do. I've come to realize in hindsight that I, too, was living with an active MLCer for several years before BD. While my exH had his own quirks and foibles, the basic theme of MLC ran straight and true, sadly ... I did all the wrong things, not knowing about DB and MWD's body of work. In fact, I had no idea what I was dealing with. Hindsight = 20/20.

Ha, I'm Catholic also. This is how it was explained to me: the Church will not recognize me as divorced ... so, I'm still married and all's fine in the eyes of the Church as long as I live as a faithful wife to your exH. If I date, then that's considered adultery. If I remarry, it won't be recognized.

So, that's what I can share. I know for me, that's been a very painful part of this whole mess. I was comforted by the knowledge that all's cool unless I start dating. I will jump off that bridge when I get to it. Hope this helps you my friend.

xoxoxoxo

[bttrfly]

^^^ my exH ... not your exH ... I'd edited to make more sense but missed that one ... sorry kiddo

[Esame]

They are really thoughtful, good boys.

Sometimes it surprises me given the dysfunction going on down in that kooky dorm room. I hope it is true, for all our sakes that it just takes one strong parent to pull our kids through this hot mess. I see it happening in other threads and I remind myself of this constantly.

You should be proud of them HaWho, it sounds like they are doing really well.

I also hope that one parent can inspire a sense of security and break the cycle of dysfunctional relationships. I was really worried about that, and if I'm honest it is still my biggest worry (and the thing that I'm struggling to forgive H for the most), but seeing how happy my children are at the moment gives me strength.

I struggle to understand what goes through their MLC affectedminds, but I promised myself I would do the best for my kids, and at least that seems to be working.

[2Times2Many]

Hi HaWho. Like bttrfly, I didn't want to add to your last thread due to the length, but I'm still following along.

Your two boys are a couple of awesome kids. In spite of the hurdles and obstacles you've had to deal with, you are quite obviously a blue ribbon Mom.

I'm stilling smiling about the A-Team comment as I know exactly how you feel. There are so many times I want to say to H, "Here, drink this STFU smoothie. Then plaster this duct tape across your mouth. I'll tie your arms and legs to the chair and you will sit and listen to a tale about a trip to crazy-ville and you, dear H, are the main character!"

Hiking is better, no?

xoxoxo
2T

[HaWho]

Bttrfly - hmm. I read what you wrote about the Catholic stance and cried FOUL! There MUST be some clause in fine print in case your spouse turns completely crazy. And yes, you were living with him through anger and denial.

Hi Esame, nice to hear from you. The best you can do is be the parent they need right now.

2T - YES! That is exactly what I wanted to do!!! Thank goodness I have learned to leave the house in a hurry. The neighbors probably think my house is on fire from the way I sometimes dash out of here.

I feel myself further drifting off from him. Yesterday I found myself wondering what keeps him here. This time last year he'd given me the dreaded letter. And at the end of it he wrote that if I did not do what he wanted me to do, he would respectfully go off and find it with ALL the women he knew would do these things for him. So arrogant. And yet he's still here.

Last week, I was in line in my car waiting to pick up my s from practice. H came up and slammed his face up to the window to scare me. I laughed (and did get really scared). He laughed too. I could tell he was checking out my legs and it made me feel really uncomfortable. Ever since that letter, I find him kind of creepy/weird because what he wrote was, well, so creepy and weird. I think what is hardest for me is that, truth be told, this is not someone with whom I would be friends. NOT AT ALL. I can be sort of friendly with him in the same way you're nice to a completely mentally unstable co - worker.

This morning he came just to the hall outside the kitchen and asked if my email was still _____. I said yep. I found it sad. Does he really not remember my email address? Or is he laying the foundation to tell me something is coming to me electronically?

I did feel a panic. Usually the more deliberate he is about talking to me, the crazier the information he relays. So I was preparing myself. Maybe he was going to go back to one of his original "plans."

The email came minutes after he asked for my address. The subject said "options" and I was convinced he was going to recommend one of his old plans: running off to Thailand for a few years with a few women, have an open marriage, to be Indiana Jones, just leave for a few years to be "free."

But actually it was about a few financial plans. He told me S13 will be in college in 5 years--something I HAVE told him throughout much of his preposterous MLC "planning!" When he recommended getting himself a beach shag pad I sarcastically said: "great! Just be sure YOU explain to S13 why there is no college money for him!"

He seems bent on showing me that he is financially responsible. In the spring he told me his plan was to spend the summer living it up just for himself. He counted summer as March - October! (His "summer" spanned THREE seasons!!!). In actuality that is not what he did per my watching the financials.

[Wonka]

But actually it was about a few financial plans. He told me S13 will be in college in 5 years--something I HAVE told him throughout much of his preposterous MLC "planning!" When he recommended getting himself a beach shag pad I sarcastically said: "great! Just be sure YOU explain to S13 why there is no college money for him!"

He seems bent on showing me that he is financially responsible. In the spring he told me his plan was to spend the summer living it up just for himself. He counted summer as March - October! (His "summer" spanned THREE seasons!!!). In actuality that is not what he did per my watching the financials.

And?!!

Does any one of them make sense at all? Or is he still firmly on Planet Zog?

[HaWho]

Hi Wonka - yes, the information he sent did make sense. I should have pointed that little detail out! He has also discussed two small investments he made. He did so by doing that thing where he tells the children the info. even though I am the adult in the room.

It's a far cry from two years ago when he wanted to rent a shag pad on the beach ($$$) and party like a rock star. Those were Space Mountain-esque like rollercoaster days.

[HaWho]

Interesting little thing happened last night. And for anyone who has time to read this, I'd appreciate any advice.

S13 has a hard course load and I think he should drop one of his honors classes. He is only in 8th grade and it is too much stress. So I pulled h aside and updated him/asked his opinion. He said let's discuss it more with S and see what he wants to do.

H left to take s11 to practice and I texted him to say something further about s13's course load. We were corresponding back and forth. H threw in a few jokes like his old self. I am of European descent and h made a joke that if he was "going European" he should have gone with a neighboring country (and one that he knows has always rivaled my home country). Then he gave a smiley face. This is his old humor. I countered that a mail order bride catalog was more his style and also gave a smiley face. We always joked a lot.

Cagey as the comment was, it is interesting that he referenced himself as anything other than a single guy. But odd as this sounds, I sensed he was weirded out that he is married and couldn't address me as his wife. He references me as the mother to his children, never as his wife.

Anyway, he texted that I should go on a walk with him and the dog when he came home as we should discuss this more. He was authoritative about it, in a way h has not been in years. He was saying we needed to take charge and help him. I said ok to the walk.

We only went for 20 or so minutes and we stuck to S13, outside a few jokes. It is the first time he has asked me to go somewhere in a year and a half. He made a lot of eye contact and he was making a lot of sense.

As we were walking into the house h told me he now has an allergic reaction to a certain food. When he eats too much of certain foods his body goes through a period where he needs to take a break. I told him I was sorry and that I would stop cooking that for a while. I voiced concern that he had an allergic reaction. He laughed and said that when he woke up with the reaction he thought it was funny that if he had died locked in that room it probably would have taken me 3 days to discover him.

It wasn't until later that it clicked this was definitely coming from a childhood hurt. As I've written before there is evidence that his mother did not care from him properly when he was quite seriously sick. He remembers begging to go to a hospital. I feel like I missed an opportunity there. I voiced concern and told him we wouldn't eat that for a while but I feel like I could have done better here?!? I have thought about texting him today and saying that it's not safe for him to sleep behind a locked door. Job (if you're reading) or others, thoughts on this?? I guess my concern is that he has cast me into the role as his mother. So if I suggest he sleep with his door unlocked, would be further think I am after him?!?

I kind of got derailed by the allergic part of the story because I was so shocked that he sleeps with his door locked against his own family. I am thinking this is what he wanted to do as a kid to feel safe?!? He did not have a lock on his childhood bedroom. This is heart breaking but he hid in his closet a lot.

I really believe he has to get through that particular issue with his mother to get through the paranoia. I wish I could say to him that he misunderstood her intentions. But sadly, I have on several occasions seen evidence that she was cavalier about his health and even his life threatening allergies. She was indeed negligent to an alarming degree.

When we came home he scurried off into the dorm room and poof, he was MIA.

[CaliGuy]

HAWho

Just my thinking, he is in a sorts processing things ... some things we notice most we do not. I would not beat yourself up about the "I coulda done this .. said that" bit, sounds like you caught a glimpse here and there of the old H and that does happen, I would get a taste here and there too but like you said, he has that issue with Mommy Dearest he will most likely need to traverse through and doing that solo is tough ... they do not need counseling as far as they are concerned right?

I think you missed the fact you were there, just being there is often bigger than anything you could say (Can't fix them with a sentence ya know .... can't fix em period) ... in many cases that STFU smoothie works wonders and allows them to really talk to themselves pretending they are talking to us.

[Ginger1]

Like Cali said, can't fix em'.....

You don't need to assume the role of his mother to get him to work through those childhood issues. Don't take his crisis issues on and try to fix them.

You listened and validated. That's what you can do, and you did it:)

[job]

HaWho,

Cali and Ginger have made good points. All you can do is offer not to make the food that he thinks he's allegoric to. Of course, it might be that he eats too much of it and then his digestive system goes haywire.

As for the locked door, it could be something that happened to him as a child at night. Could be someone came into his room and scared him or it could possibly be someone came in and touched him inappropriately. The locked door symbolizes safety to him right now.

All you can do is listen and validate. You can't be his mother and attempt to fix his issues. You need to focus on your sons, especially the one that may need to drop a class. Focus on your sons. Your h is a grown man (little boy blue) and he needs to figure things out for himself.

[Bee29]

HaWho, I was waiting for Job and others, more experienced than me, to reply first. But my first instinct was to say do NOT suggest to keep the door unlocked. And judging from what you wrote, you feel yourself it would not be a good thing to do. So just let him do what he feels he needs to do.

Have a great weekend!

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, that is a sad story about your H's mother. I hate to think of him being unwell and not being cared for properly. I can certainly understand how he must fear dying alone and no-one realising.

That said, I agree with posters above. I don't think you need to take action on this, other than listening as you have. After all, if he chooses to leave his door locked or unlocked is up to him, but it is good that he trusted you enough to share this. I would say not to raise this again unless he chooses to discuss it with you.

Hope you have a good weekend and that workload settled down for your S. Xx

[Esame]

HaWho I think you did great (as always) and that there isn't much else you could do. It sounds like he is processing his issues, in his own unique way, and that doesn't leave much room for a wife to help.

How are you feeling? How are you coping with all the madness?

[HaWho]

I am telling you, living with the MLCer is like living in a parallel universe. H must be wearing those Galaxy goggles and watching a different story altogether.

The last few weekends have been tough. I have been in a lot of pain. It's the one year anniversary of me dealing with the letter and I am feeling it. I know next year will be easier as I hardly feel BD anymore and that was 2 years ago.
H has been locked away in his dorm room. Lots of music. Saturday he went out and I knew it was coming. Beforehand he always acts like he is trying to earn a Boy Scouts badge. He was around the kids and walked the dog early so I could sniff something was up. At 7 he announced he was going out for the night. s11 asked where and h gave absolutely no answer; he just walked right on by! Lovely. And that was hard because it was just like the hardcore replay days. It triggered me right back to those emotions.

The next day, I acted as if. We were driving to S11's game and h pointed out a dead animal in the road that was there at 6 AM that morning. He asked if he woke us when he went to drive and listen to music. I said not a word and left S11 to answer. I never heard him leave. Guess he was worried I knew he snuck out and he ratted on himself.

Nights are very difficult for him. The TV is on all night in the dorm room. Some nights music is blaring until 4AM. Saturday h slept most of the day as he was up all night with music the night before.

S11 had an overnight field trip today. Somehow I missed that parents were doing a send off for the kids when the bus left? H sent me a nasty text asking me if I was taking the day off from parenting.

I asked what he meant and he told me parents were waving kids off. He really laid a heavy guilt trip on me. I thanked him for being there. And thank goodness he was! I told him I just misunderstood. (Also I am stressed out about S13's workload, processing the pain of the letter and I have an eye issue that Inmnow is stress induced.)

Then a few minutes later, I stuck up for myself. I told him I wished he could be more respectful to me. I made a mistake and asked why his response was "you're a bad mom" vs. "hey, you missed this, are you okay?" I did all son's laundry for the trip, had everything he needed on the list, packed all his food and completed every task (it was A LOT of prep)! The night before we cuddled for a while and talked about the trip. This, after reading together for the night. (H meanwhile was in the dorm room listening to music and didn't lift a pinky finger to prepare!). And in the morning I kissed s11 and said see you tomorrow. I know S11 will understand I made a mistake and that I am not a bad mom. I have a VERY clear conscience on this front.

When asked why h thinks the worst of me, he went back to the past and reminded me that 2 years ago I showed up at a family night at school without my wedding rings on. Um, yeah, what he neglected to mention is that this was 2 DAYS after he told me he was going to get an apartment and sleep around (after lying to my face and saying nothing was up when I asked where he was going all the time!). So I reminded him of all this and said, considering the circumstances I KNOW I handled things pretty well. I told him I was in tremendous pain and yes, I acknowledged (again) I have made mistakes. (Thank goodness h is not on any judiciary boards!!)

I am done apologizing. I have given genuine apologies for all my various flaws. I have offered to go to marriage counseling and was told there was no point as everything was my fault. FINIS with apologies.

Then came the following: I have not done anything for him in 13 years!

No validation there. All truth darts. I said I am sorry he felt that way, but that I worked pretty hard those years (and everyone saw it and commented on it.) I took care of the kids 90% of the time, I cooked, I cleaned, I did all the laundry. Trust me: I have the hands to show I did the work. And so I stood up for myself. I told because I did all those things he had the gift of free time. And he did.

I did also say that I am sorry he feels I did "nothing." Then I also said we both already know from his letter exactly what he thinks of the physical sacrifices I made (with my body) to have children. He of course, did not respond to that.

The good news: last time he spewed he told me I haven't done anything in 18 years!!! This time, the amount was reduced to 13 years! In another two years, I am hoping it will be reduced to a decade.

As for me, I am okay. Staying busy. I saw friends last night and that was great. Played a really competitive tennis match the other day. The player was a 4.5 and so good. I am still a 4.0 and have been contemplating trying to do the work to move up. I realized just exactly how much work that would take.

[HaWho]

After we ate dinner in the kitchen, h went to the dining room table and was working on something there. I know he was out of the dorm room to temp read how mad I was about all that he said.

I squared my shoulders, walked right past him, went upstairs and was just so fed up. His comments were so unwarranted. I converted my room to a spa. I painted my nails a super cheerful red color.

I went into S13's room, told him the color was "Roulette Rush" and I asked what he thought. He said it really looked "Russian red." Then he told me politely that he had homework to do and in a Russian accent he asked me to go back to the Motherland, aka my room. LOL!! Love my kids' wit.

Anyway, I returned to the Motherland and up popped a text from h and I just groaned. I just want to be left alone. I think at this point my love language is: just don't project that I am your mother. (This should be added into the next edition of Chapman's book.)

H's text said he is sorry for the initial text (where he said I am a bad mom) and he did not mean to upset me. Then he said goodnight. I love how he only apologized for the "initial text." Guess that means he meant everything that followed.

I think this is, seriously, the third or fourth time he has apologized in the 18 years I have known him. I am waiting to cool off. Then I will accept the apology and say goodnight.

Really, I am surprised he noticed and cared that he upset me. He hasn't expressed concern about such things in a lonnnnng time.

[Bee29]

Hi HaWho,

I'm so sorry you are going through these difficult times! Such "anniversaries" we never asked for... Wouldn't it be great if we could just hit a delete button & erase part of our memory?

You are excellent mother & excellent wife. Isn't it funny that they do one thing in relation to kids compare to our 100 but somehow it's always such a big thing! And how they are just waiting for our one mistake to rub it into our face. You did well to indulge into your "spa" treatment.

Your son sounds just like my s15 (including the Russian accent - in my case when he makes fun of my shiny clothes) 😊

[bttrfly]

Hi Ha,
Wow, that's a lot to process. I'm glad you turned the Motherland into a spa. My love language is if you're in a MLC you're on the outs with me.

So I guess the positive is that this very proud man who almost never apologizes got through his fog enough to a. realize he'd upset you and b. said he was sorry.

Small consolation, but there it is: the silver lining.

Hugs from the East coast. xoxoxoxo dosvedanya

[Ginger1]

He noticed this time because you didn't apologize for something you didn't do, you didn't just validate it, you didn't own his stuff, you point blank called him on his BS. You stood up for yourself and pointed out the truth.

Good for you!

[job]

HaWho,

I agree w/Ginger. Sometimes, we have to stand our ground and tell it like it is. Even though they are out to lunch, we have to do this and you know what? They'll respect you more for it at the end of the day. Don't apologize again for anything that you've already apologized for.

You are a great mom and your sons are great boys. Don't allow this man to rattle your cage. He's got a lot of issues and I often wonder just how he would survive living elsewhere. As for the up all night deal...his demons are talking to him and he can't sleep because his brain is on autopilot all night long. Poor man.

Keep moving forward. You have the patience of a saint and he doesn't know just how lucky he is to have you for a wife.

[HaWho]

Bee - so true! He is patting himself on the back for standing outside a bus and waving for 30 seconds and yet he has come into the boys' rooms FIVE times in 2 YEARS! And bedtime is when all my kids' concerns/issues arise. Of course, judging from all that is going on in h's room at "bedtime," it's the same for him.

Bttrfly - LOL! Love the Russian send off.

Ginger - yes, I see all that. And I get it, finally; I really do. You are so sharp. And I want to thank you for all the help you've given me on my thread.

Job - I am SO done re-apologizing for issues. Honestly, he just has little self awareness. I think it's been lacking for many years and it's worsened in MLC. Unfortunately, I see now that I accidentally enabled it to worsen, further, by taking flak and apologizing for the sake of keeping peace. BIG mistake with his personality type + the addition of MLC. I should have been doing the exact opposite. I needed to kindly, but firmly build strong, strong boundaries based on his personality type.

Today I woke up and wanted to create a profile for him on Match.com. Slap his smiling picture on there, give a quick (but brutally honest) bio, show a picture of his living quarters and release him to the single ladies of the world. How funny would that be if he suddenly started receiving calls out of the blue? And based on the true bio I would write (he has his bathroom cleaned TWICE a YEAR!!!), I would LOVE to see who responds. He thinks he is the cat's meow.

[Sotto]

Ugh, I can so feel your frustration and anger. You miss something and he is all over it and not in a nice way...

I'm glad you received some sort of apology from him. It sounds as though he knows he went a little too far there.

As for the Match.com....weeell I'm a little in to the married guys who lock themselves into their own quarters in the marital home and practice hands off parenting...just kidding...

Reminds me of soon after BD when I realised I had access to XH's Meetups profile. He'd been contacted by an old friend and asked if he wanted to go out. He politely declined saying she hoped he'd understand he was fresh out of a R and it was too soon to start dating. Bits he didn't mention were - he hadn't told me our R was over (only I'm confused) and that he had been having an A. Part of me would love to have told her not to touch him with a 10 foot pole...

Keep on moving forward my friend xx

[HaWho]

LOL Sotto. But the Meetups bit? Not at all funny.

Things are mostly quiet here. H barely comes out of his room at all. I think if I counted how many words we spoke to each other per week, these days it would be under 50/week even though we live under the same roof. I wonder if I should try something different.

S11 had his birthday and there was oddity around that. We had settled on the day a month ago while all of us were eating dinner. I assumed h had asked S11 for the exact details as we had only narrowed down the day for the party at that time.

H picked out his own gift for S. It was an odd one. (The birthday gift for S13, this year, was also off/for a much younger child.) We use only cell phones now and have for the last few years. (H dropped the landline 1 month before BD. When he bombed me, I started to think he dropped it so that a crazy affair partner could not reach him/me at home.) Anyway, H's gift to S11 was a landline! And he went and got almost the same number we used to have. He requested it.

I will get a big fat F for BDing on this one but I joked: oh, that is just what every 12 year old wants in 2016.

S11 does not yet have a cell phone. H said this way s can make his own calls? S is only home alone for a few minutes at a time. He is only 11! But he never calls friends and vice versa. I know for sure S11 did not ask for a landline and I am thinking maybe h is in the past thinking about what HE wanted when he was 11ish? Hmm.

Anyway, a few days before the party I mentioned something and h suddenly knew nothing about the party!?! So I reminded him he was at the table when we finalized the date. But I did text him apologizing for not giving the details. I told him I just assumed that he asked s (as he usually does this to avoid talking to me). And I told him what s11 wanted for his birthday, a bike with gears (which is something very normal for his age).

Then h got very mad and sent me a nasty text. He told me he already bought a gift; the landline and it would cost something each month. This is where DBing saves me. I simply said: "I had no idea S had asked you for a landline. When I asked what he wanted, he told me a bike." And I left it at that.

He never texted back and he was in a snit/ignored me all weekend. Guess it was all my fault.

BUT, come Sunday we did take S11 bike shopping and h came. He was back like himself. He ascertained what size/brand best worked for S11. He was able to concentrate on the task at hand. Then he said he would comparative shop (like he used to). And he did it. He took S11 and bought something the next day.

He sent me a pic, told me how much he saved and he did a nice job. I validated and when they came home I took a spin, too, as did S13. It's nice!

Otherwise, All Quiet on the MLC Front.

[BrightFuture]

Hey HaWho, great job standing for yourself. Maybe this is what is needed in your case, as the validation seems to be not doing any good. I’m so sorry that you are feeling the pain again from that d@rn letter and that you are in so much stress with everything else that is on your plate right now. You are a great Mom and all I see that you are trying to take of your sons the best you can, considering that you have to deal with your H’s MLC, and essentially another child in your house.

I love the idea of Match.com profile! And you could create one for yourself (under a different name, of course). You could learn a lot about him, LOL. No… I’m just kidding. I think it would too painful.

Landline for a 12 year old!!! Hahaha! This is a good one. This is exactly what I thought too, that it must be related to something he wanted when he was that age.

BTW, what is “Russian send off”? Just curious…

[Pax_luv]

Hi ha who,

You're a great mom and I see you doing everything possible to keep things sane for your children's sake.

I will admit, part of me felt bad for your h with the landline story. How sad to be that out of touch. I imagine his feelings will be hurt when he realizes s11 ain't interested! I definitely can see how this could have been something he wanted as a young boy. I wonder if he sprung for the call waiting?!

How intetesting that he purposefully requested a number similar to your old one.

I'm glad to read that the bike shopping endeavor was even keeled and pleasant. That's a win!

[job]

HaWho,
You'll get no 2x4's from me over this birthday gift. A landline? Who purchases a landline for an eleven year old in today's society? Sounds like his home didn't have a phone when he was that age and he wished for one. I'm glad you spoke up on that one.

I'm also glad your son got the bike he requested. I do hope he had a good birthday even though it got off to a rather odd start.

How are you doing? I know Christmas is around the corner (again) and the tree will be up in his dorm room once more. Any thoughts as to what you'll get Peter Pan this year?

[Sotto]

Oh goodness me - a landline?? I can understand if he had asked...and maybe with a point in his room and a funky phone. But otherwise? Oh boy, I may have read it all now.

HaWho, I do take my hat off to you across the ocean here. You are doing so well and it must be so trying at times. Kudos to you.

Thank goodness for the bike!!

Xx

[HaWho]

Bright - the Russian send off was a reference to Bttrfly signing off by writing "dosvedanya."

Feyth - LOL on the call waiting feature. One really cool feature is that it is NOT (even) cordless and it has giant buttons for dialing. It has not rung once! Not even telemarketers are calling. But when they do start, I am looking forward to paying a monthly bill so that I can politely ask telemarketers to take me off their call list. (Then I'll call that 800 number where I can put the landline on the "do call list".) When I am on my cell phone I swear that landline looks at me like: why did you bother bringing me here to this graveyard?!?

Sotto - I know! At least get him a cool mallard duck phone and put it in his room. Nope. It's corded and in the kitchen. This is particularly cool phone real estate for S11. I am sure when he grows interested in having private conversations he'll for sure opt for the kitchen landline (so I can hear ALL he says) vs. wanting his own cell phone. I doubt he'll be interested in texting.

Job - thanks for asking how I am. I am looking forward to going back east for XMAS. I miss my family. I miss the woods and snow. My sister lives close to where I grew up and the boys and I will stay on with her (while h returns). I love to sit in her kitchen and just watch the snow, the squirrels or the birds. She has a great dog and we take him for long walks in the woods. Wish my dog could meet her dog!

H mentioned he too is looking forward to returning. And the reason why? He can't wait to see how old his brother has grown. Ugh. The obsession with aging is brutal. His brother is a little older and yet still has jet black hair. BIL insists it s natural and says he has n

Detaching has been good for me. And yet when I do glance over at h, I find myself

[HaWho]

Accidentally hit submit.

I will pick up where I left off: BIL says his hair is natural. I can tell h is wondering why he is going grey but his brother is not. I have told h that BIL is coloring and not fessing up. In his 20's BIL had dark hair but obviously had hints of other hues. Suddenly his hair is monochromatic black and it's all natural? And yet he has whites on his face. Sure, it's natural; wink, wink, nod, nod.

Point is: h is obsessed with aging. He also told me he can't wait to see how old his brother looks?!?

So as I detach it saves me but when I glance over at h, I just grow concerned at how out of it he is. He is really in his own world over there. Last night I woke up at 11PM to him playing really loud music.

Job - yep, almost time for the "seasonal" tree to make it's debut. H did tell me it can be used all year long! As for an XMAS gift for h? Maybe he is ready for an Atari???

[HaWho]

Ok, I guess because it's been quiet h decided to stir up drama, probably to justify the turmoil within himself. This'll be long.

I am adhering to a budget. However, I have squirreled away a few thousand of my own dollars to protect myself and the kids should h go (further) off the deep end. The other day I withdrew a small amount of extra money as s13 has a tournament and something else I need to pay for.

H leaves me a post-it telling me he is deducting that money from my overall budget and that I make a lot of work for him when I deduct money (as he has to go put it back in to pay bills). He keeps so little money in there that he's bounced small checks! So I text him and explain what the money is for.

He tells me I can use the money from my own personal account (he is sore I set this up). And he says he is tired of being the only adult around (VERY interesting if you turn that around as you are supposed to do with projection).

I text back and explain the truth: that I keep that extra money to protect myself from his potential behaviors. I remind him that he wanted to blow money on an apartment on the beach so he could sleep around and that he wanted desperately to be free. That money gives me some peace of mind. Then I tell him that these behaviors have me concerned for him. I say: you are not yourself and I think at times you know it. I tell him I think he needs help. Spoiler alert: he tells me he is great and I am crazy. I don't respond.

I have been wanting to plant this seed for some time so that if he ever wakes up he knows I did voice concern for him. I am very proud that I conveyed my message and that I did not engage in name calling or insulting. He was gunning for a fight. I slept like a champ. This too, is different from the earlier days where I was so attached to all the craziness.

When I came home s11 announced that he loves his bike and thanks us profusely. He says it's the best gift ever. H says (and h's serious): "I thought the phone was a pretty good gift, too." No one says a word. H says: "yes, thank your mom for the bike it was all her." (This after he has insulted me via text: insinuating that I am a money grubbed for keeping just a bit of my own money, telling me I am crazy and not an adult!)

This morning I turn on my cell and there is a long message from h.

Here is what he says: he says is not sure what I am shooting for these days. He says he is trying to be a friend to me, a good parent, he's trying to save some money, and squeeze out an hour or two of happiness a day. If he knew more about how I think, maybe things could go more smoothly between us. He says he does a good job providing for me. So well, in fact that he feels like a 'super human being.' Then he says, we were a 'romantic' married couple but that ended a decade ago (didn't I call that the number continues to go down!!! And remember at BD he said we were NEVER happy!!).

This is where it gets a bit silly. He tells me the romantic things ended when I had a man's card hidden in my cell phone. He also thinks I once went on a double date. Background: when we were newly married, something was wrong with my cell phone and the guy who repaired it slipped his card onto the battery behind the cover?!? I was telling h about my phone problem and out popped the card when he we went to look at the battery. He thinks I was fooling around with the guy! I was NOT. And I have no idea why he put the card in there. And like I would put the card in there and then tell h about the phone problem so he could look?!? As for the double date, I went to NYC to visit my sister. I was already married and my sister's boyfriend brought a guy friend to dinner, who was vistiting from out of town. When I told h he called it a double date and was furious?!? I realize now he was quite insecure, overall.

So back to his text. Then he lists various other things I did wrong, that I already apologized for (MANY) times. He tells me the last straw was when I embarrassed him in front of my sisters. (I assume he means that he slept downstairs when they came because I did not want him in my bedroom??) It is funny that he said two different things were the last straw: when the repair guys's card was found in my cell phone/ when I went on the "double date." (Guess I should have told the guy to go back to Chicago or wherever it was he was visiting from?!?). The double date is so stupid. So he thinks my sister was setting up her married sister?!? And then the other last straw was when I embarrassed him in front of my sisters, even though he moved down there.

He ends by telling me that he is done a ton for me. And he wants me to drop the morgue routine.

Pretty much all he asks is to know how I am thinking. Is this a temp check?

I am not sure how much to engage. I think it is not coincidental that I tell him he is off/needs help and he writes me this long text of how great he is. He again points out my flaws and then asks how I think. All I wanted was the money for the tournament!!! That's it!

Here are the things I think: A. in light of his erratic behavior I am not a money grubber for saving some portion of money in my name. In fact he should, and probably does, have some portion in HIS own name, too. If there is anything I have learned, it's that mental sanity is not a guarentee. B. I will not apologize anymore for things I have already apologized for. C. HE is off and he is trying to deflect and project onto me. D. He is too immature, still, to forgive the past and move on. E. I think his obsessions with my supposed marital infidelities are about him trying to feel better about what he has thought and maybe what he has done. I have never come close to having an affair. It is a complete and utter turn off to me.

Anyway, not sure how much to divulge about what I think. Any advice?

[AndrewP]

HaWho - I think he's trying to build a man out of straw - or a house if you like the 3 little pigs story.

It's not substantial and he may even know it. My thought is to let it blow over. I don't expect that even if the words go into his ears that he'll listen and it will give him more straws to add.

There's an interesting article that I read pre-BD - not sure if it was after W's A started or not. I was very excited about it and had W read it. Shortly after that she started squirreling away money as well. Google (adjusting spelling) "fvck off fund" - which talks about the importance of having your own money and being independent even when in a relationship. I doubt if showing it to H would have any impact but it might make you feel better.

[job]

HaWho,

I think I would sit on this latest drama for a while. He's not a happy camper about not getting the attention for purchasing the landline. The bike was what your son wanted. He thinks he can't do anything right and no one appreciates his efforts. He's frustrated as heck.

I do think he's not a happy camper and he's really trying to push your buttons over everything. So, he can't see the forest for the trees because he's not thinking rationally, but emotionally at the moment. He thinks that you are at fault for the world spinning. You had no control over the repairman putting his card in your phone as well as no control over an additional person joining you and your sister and her boyfriend for dinner. You would be been rude to have said anything about the friend joining you.

As for making him look silly in front of your family when they came to visit, well that was all on him. He's tried so many things to get you to explode and say something that would help justify him leaving and yet, you haven't. He's frustrated and he doesn't know what to do.

Here's my advice...do nothing for now. Allow him to fume for a while and when things have calmed down, I would arrange a meeting w/him to discuss w/him as to what he thinks a friendship looks like. Friends do not treat friends the way he has. Friends do not talk to friends the way he has. HaWho, you may not reach him w/words, but you can w/actions. Can you treat him as a friend?

When in doubt, do nothing...sit quietly and the answers will come. BTW, I'm sorry he's off the rails again. I do hope that you have a nice weekend.

[HaWho]

Andrew - thanks so much for the perspective and advice.

Job - thanks for all that. It's funny you mention him feeling under appreciated. This morning he asked s11 what time his game was. S11 answered and h said "ok, well I'll be there if you want me to be." So I see he feels left rejected. (Of course, he should go because he is a father and he should want to be there!). S11 answered: of course I want you to be there.

I do want to sit on it all. However, not answering anything back feels a bit cold. Job - Might I text back something? Maybe: ok, let me think about all this. It feels odd to say absolutely nothing. But then, that would be a 180 for me.

As for friendship, that is a hard one and a big part of why I am hesitant to say too much. I can certainly be "friendly" towards him. In all sincerity, if I were to become friends with him it would be in the hopes that he would blossom into a person worthy of being friends with. Truth be told, I've never been friends with a guy like him/who he is today.

I think if I don't answer anything he will be pretty insulted.

[Esame]

HaWho is it me or do I detect a glimmer of caring about what you think of him in there? It could be just his insecurity or his need for approval, but why does he even care what you (or your sisters) think of him? After all his crazy behaviour what does it matter? i don't into what you should reply? Validate? Impossible! Not sure what to suggest HaWho... sorry

[Esame]

*I don't know not i don't into
Sorry for the typo

[job]

If you feel the need to respond back, I would suggest something like this: "h, I'm sorry you feel the way that you do towards me and the situation here, but I need some time to think about what you've posted for a day or so and then let's sit down and talk about this."

You do need some time to calm down and truly think about his comments and when you do have a meet up w/him, stay calm, keep your voice calm and even and always look him in the eyes. If something isn't clear, repeat it back to him and see if you have understood him correctly.

[Coly23]

Hi HaWho, I'm just lurking, catching up on your sitch (I have my own thread but haven't posted lately as not much going on!).

I don't have any advice but whilst I was reading about your H accusing you of having As and his insecurities a light seemed to go on in my head and I remembered a really awful few years when my Dad was constantly accusing my Mum of the same things. My Mum went to a Catholic boarding school and didn't have anyone else except my Dad, didn't go out socially so we were all very confused! Once he even found a random valentines message in the local newspaper and said it was to her from her OM it was so odd! I remember he was was so angry all the time and very irrational. I now realise he must have been going through his own MLC, I just never put two and two together. Funnily enough although he is sad that H left (he cried) he has been really understanding which is very unlike my Dad so maybe he recognises something of himself in what my H is going through...

[HaWho]

I think I feel better about texting something back Job. I like your idea.

The text he sent was sooo long. I missed a few other pearls. He tells me I don't contribute anything positive to his life and it seems with malice. (Wow, that is harsh.) He says he does everything for me, year in and year out and gets only negative in return. And he also asks that for once I be a reciprocal friend to him and tell him what on earth I are doing/trying to accomplish.

Why would he want to be friends with someone that he views as bringing nothing positive to his life? And really, what an opening salvo! This is like insulting a woman (and her mother) and then asking her out for a drink!!!

I will wait a few days and then talk to him about how he sees a reciprocal friendship. But, I don't think he's really ready for that. He makes so many low blows and I am still "the cause" of so many his problems. Part of me thinks he's just worried that I am plotting something and he's on a fact finding mission.

I will let him do most of the talking. If he asks me any questions, I'll probably just hedge and say I need some time to think about things. And this is truth. In general, I will keep it really short.

I really dread talking to him. In the last 2 years he has said the most outlandish things to me.

[bttrfly]

i am sorry to read this new development. the $ issue is a big button for me, as during the time my exh and i lived together during his mlc he controlled the money to the point of actually having bank accounts without my name on them and would dole out $ as he felt i needed it. i cannot tell you how many times i went to the grocery store and had my debit card declined. i still get anxious every time i use a card to buy something, even though i know there.s no reason to. Ha I tell you these things because I want you to know beyond any doubt that having your own "move my tent to another village in a hurry if i need to" money is imperative, I think, to peace of mind and absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. hang in there xoxoxo

[HaWho]

Coly - there was a time I would have found your father's story odd, but not so much anymore given all that I know about MLC.

Bttrfly - that is a very stressful way to live. I am sorry. Like you, I am seeing so many control issues surfacing.

Well, I am in for a bumpy ride. There is so much anger surfacing. Guess I am due as it's been quiet for some time.

I sent the text as Job worded it. Within minutes my phone was beeping frantically with multiple texts coming through. He is REALLY not a happy camper now. He is furious. He tells me doesn't get my reply. He tells me that the last 17 years have been mostly unpleasant and that I do nothing for him. (I think he has forgotten that he told me it was all over and to leave him alone.) He is mad that it is taking me days to contemplate all this.

I did not respond at all. This is going to be one of those where no matter what I say he will twist it all. There is soooo much anger. He wants to fight. I can see that he is very mad at his lot in life. And I am still the cause of all his problems.

[Esame]

HaWho the first time I heard of the "F. Off Fund" that Andrew describes was 4 years ago. My friend told me she always puts a little money away in case she ever needs it. I though she was mad. She has a good H, who provides for her and the family. Now I wish I took her advice back then. I know that money is not the issue with my H's MLC but I recognise that it was one of the major contributing factors. You need that money, don't let him bully you into losing your independence.

I'm sorry things are escalating, I'm thinking of you xxx

[AndrewP]

HaWho - Stupid suggestion time. Can you accidentally and not on purpose dump your phone into the garbage disposal? The ease with which your H can contact you and you can react may be part of the unhealthy dynamic - trust me - I know how reacting without thinking can be unhealthy

Perhaps learn how to do semaphore - that way you and H will have to stand on opposite hilltops with your flags and send messages one letter at a time and only if the weather is clear - joke -

More seriously though - you are "very" available to him via text and being in the same house. Sitting behind a keyboard of whatever kind can cause people to write things that they wouldn't say in real life. It also creates an expectation of immediacy which IMO is one of the great failings of the modern world. I'm of an age when an "urgent response" took 2 weeks because you had to mail everything. Perhaps a more civilized time?

Keep strong - you are in a very tough place right now but we're all cheering for you. You are an inspiration.

[Huddy]

Hey Ha Who

Always lurking, but don't tend to post that often. I was in a in house separation, and it was a total hell. You come home not knowing who's going to be in. It was like living with Jekel and Hyde - except nastier!

I know where you're heading, but you're not gonna fix him with a text. That grey hair on his head, well, that's your fault. That beer gut, well, that's your fault. Get the train of thought here? I think back to some of the things W said to me (you made me put weight on; I only started eating meals out when I met you; my t**s were less saggy before I met you; my tummy was smaller before we had kids etc.) and realise, that I could be the best husband a woman could ever have been, and I'm not saying I am, and I still would have been blamed for her aging.

You will have re-assured him, as I did with my W, that none of that matters, you love him etc., but it won't go in. Only he can realise that. I now don't respond to spew in a climb down focus, but meet it head on with truth darts and facts. They can't cope with that. Remember, you're taking it out on them (oh, the pearls of wisdom from my W are fantastic) and everything you do, be it good or bad, is just to get up there nose.

Stay safe and try not to let him rile you. He'll soon get bored when you don't interact, because that's what they want you to do, to make them feel a part of their life that you can't do with out.

Oh, seriously, a landline? Yep, every 11 year old boys dream present that!

[ciluzen]

Andrew P,
That was absolutely spot on advice! HaWho, maybe not being so available by cell phone is needed. I know I sometimes get irritated with my own ("grown up") children when they hide behind their cell phones and try to send me complex, long, and emotional texts which can be misinterpreted due to lack of ability to hear the tone or inflection they would be using. Its bad enough that we can't read body language by phone. I really believe that we are losing our ability to effectively communicate with each other because of our reliance on what is easier (text).
Maybe making it harder on him will actually force better communication. He would have to meet you face to face. How would you set this up? I'm not sure. Maybe just explain that you think that texting is not helping your communication, and that you will not do it anymore while you are x number of feet away in the same house? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with this. But I know in my own life, communicating without a voice or face attached is only semi-communicating when it comes to the complex and the quick...I always end up calling at the very least to make certain that one or both are not being misunderstood. Sarcasm runs rampant in my family, though, and text does not communicate that well.

When it comes to my H (at this point), his texts are always very simple...facts only. Nothing that needs to be interpreted. If it is about anything beyond "I have done x" or "will you do y", he will text "can I call?". That's our new way of communicating. No more jokes or stories by text. Sad, but nothing is left to misunderstand.

[job]

Hiding behind a computer or a cell phone makes it easier for them to say what is on their minds. They don't want to see/deal with the emotions and how we react to their conversations if we are standing right there in front of them. They do not like confrontation and one way to avoid that is by electronic means.

HaWho, it's time to stop responding to his messages. Sure, take one once in a while, but it's time to try something new. He's living under the roof w/you and it's time for frat boy to come out of the dorm room and have a face to face conversation w/you.

Ciluzen has given you some good advice/suggestions...it's time to try something new.

He wants open communication, then give it to him. Come out of the dorm room and act like a man and talk to you face to face.

[Ginger1]

I was thinking exactly what Andrew mentioned. These days, people hide behind cell phones, email, facebook to communicate, when in reality, they wouldn't say half of that stuff to someone's face. I think people thought more before they spoke about what they would say when they had to say it someone's face and not hide behind a device.

I agree with ciluzen's suggestions. Texting is not an appropriate way to communicate these feelings, ESPECIALLY while you are living under the same roof. I would suggest telling him if he would like to talk about this, you'd be glad to sit down like adults and have a face to face conversation.

I'm sorry he is blaming you for his life. You are the closest thing to him and it's so easy to blame the closest to him for all of his own problems. He's being an absolute coward.

[HaWho]

You know what, guys, such a smart and yet simple solution! Andrew this "slow response" of course, would have offered people an automatic time out. My h has always been brave behind a keyboard.

Ciluzen - I like your idea A LOT. I think I will send a text telling him that texting is not helping our communication and as we live under the same roof we should communicate face to face so that nothing is lost in translation.

I am also thinking of turning this whole situation around and saying: you asked for my thoughts on a lot of things. When you have a moment, please come and let's discuss things face to face. Thoughts on this???

I am thinking he is the one initiating this drama. And he is sending me pages of texts! And yes, I want to get him to a point where he can come and have an adult face to face conversation. He cowers behind that screen. I am curious to see how he'll react if I tell him to come see me when he can.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, I'm sorry you're having a rough time with your H. I always work with the golden rule of never anything negative by text or email. If a hard conversation needs to be had, I have it face to face. I dread that of course, and when I need to have those convos I try and do so from my 'best self.'

I think if you can aim for that with your H, you can't go too far wrong. I also think it's fine to pleasantly put a boundary on the text convos, letting him know you're happy to discuss, but in person would be best. Once you've done that, if he continues with the negative texting, I would just press delete and ignore.

JMHO of course, and I do hope things settle down soon. Xx

[HaWho]

Thanks Sotto, Andrew, Esame, Job, Huddy, Ciluzen and Ginger. You guys are amazing!

Just thinking further about what I said above. I am thinking I should tell HIM to come discuss it face to face when he wants. This IS the way things work in the real world. When I have a problem with someone I contact the person. I don't send nasty page long texts and then correspond all via text like we're 12.

He needs to start coming to me when he has things to discuss. And yes, he says the most foul things via text!

[Esame]

I agree! You absolutely deserve a face to face discussion, you earned it by putting up with his insanity under your roof! Isn't it also a 180 in a way?

[HaWho]

OMG - he is STILL sending me texts. He has the worst case of the texting runs. They are really obnoxious. The latest says (for the umpteenth time) that the marriage ended 2 years ago officially, 10 years ago unofficially. Then he basically puts me down for the years I was in my depression.

I feel sorry for him. As I have written about before, my depression centered on the fact that my nephew was born with a very rare, severe genetic disorder. H slipped into MLC around this time and was so irritable. H's empathy chip is totally busted as he knows how hard that diagnosis was for me and my family. As my IC explained to me: I mourned a child and the life my sister/her family should have had.

I am now ignoring all the texts. Each one is nastier than the last. I just scan them and then ignore. He seems to be short circuiting.

Years ago, I worked with this Managing Partner who would leave really lonnng, pointless voicemails to all employees. Sometimes he would spill over into 2 messages rather than deleting and re-recording one succinct message.

One day someone discovered that there was a (really cool and handy) feature where we could press 3# and delete a message at any time, without waiting 'til the end! So, a voicemail would come from this long winded guy and he would say "hi, this is Long Winded Guy and I am calling..." And people would just press 3#. Voilà, what a time saver! In fact, people started to just call him 3# (3 Pound)! "Well, I asked 3# his opinion on this and ..."

Well, he got wind of this all and started to leave voicemails like (very rushed): "Hi! This is Long Winded Guy, DO NOT 3# this message."

Eventually we retrained him to only vmail us with important info and to communicate effectively. This is what I need to do with h's current case of texting diarrhea.

He is trying everything to get me to fight with him. He really wants a reaction. It is exactly as is written: that they want drama and will try everything to push buttons.

I am praying for patience.

[Huddy]

So, your replies haven't done anything to calm him down? So, turn off the phone and watch the TV, or something more enjoyable instead. He'll get the message eventually.

[job]

Turn the phone off and go do something else. You don't need to be subjected to his vile self today. He evidently isn't happy about last weekend's birthday gift and he's still smarting from it. Leave him to stew in his own juices. When he sees you aren't reacting/responding to his crazy stuff, he'll eventually will stop it or better yet, come out of that stinky room and confront you.

[Pax_luv]

Hi Hawho,
Im so sorry you are going through this. Ugh.

As an outsider looking in, I could have put money on this latest spew session occurring after the phone gift. He's trying to protect himself by projecting on you. You don't deserve it. I'm sorry.

Hopefully, you were able to turn off the phone and let him have his tantrum.

[HaWho]

Thanks Huddy, Feyth and Job. I thought I had seen it all but this latest tantrum over that stupid landline is a new level of pathetic.

I did turn off my phone for the rest of the day. H sent only one other text, something about S13's academics that required discussion between us. Instead, h just went and discussed it with S13! I waited a while and then told him I should have been included on that decision as I am not just the egg donor. Crickets chirped on that.

Then I sent a text telling him that texting/communicating via post-it notes does not help our communication. (Sometimes he writes me important messages using 3 or 4 post its!!! Veeeeerry mature.). I told him I will no longer have complicated conversations via text to ensure nothing is lost in translation. And I told him that whenever he wants to finish the latest conversation he started (about what I am thinking), to please come do so in person. He immediately responded that these conversations are not very complicated.

Ok. Well, I will ignore that. And clearly he has already forgotten that he asked what I was thinking. He is not truly interested in how to forge a friendship.

This will be very hard as he always wants to hide behind writing letters/texting/post-it noting his way through life. This is a control issue for him. I know he'll continue trying to have conversations via text.

Oh and he seems to be starting back with not eating anything I cook. That seems to be one of the lovely PA things he does to show me he is angry.

[job]

HaWho,

I think you did the right thing. Now, you will need to stick to the "no discussions via text/post it notes". If he wants to have a conversation, then he will need to speak to you in person, face to face.

As for him not eating what you prepare...then so be it. He'll get over it and if he doesn't, he'll have to fix his own meals. Let him stew in his PA pot.

[Huddy]

So, he doesn't like what you cook? I think, once he's had his fill of pizza/doritos/beer, he'll all of a sudden regain his appreciation of home cooked food.

You really are generous though. Cooking him food, when he is plainly so obnoxious about you, takes real gumption.

[mleigh4]

Hi HW! I agree with the others. When he texts you, try responding in person. If you keep doing that, and he knows you will, it may quiet down the spews. My H is also very brave and mean on text when he is angry at me, but face to face, he is calm and reasonable.

I look forward to you getting a break and being with your family at the holidays. You deserve a break HW. Living in an environment with on and off hostility must be exhausting.

Take care of yourself and big hugs!
M

[Esame]

I agree with mleigh4, you need a break! My H is only here for the weekends and it drains me from all energy.. I cannot wait for him to go back to his bachelor pad on Sunday nights.

Please take care of yourself darling x

[BrightFuture]

Hey HaWho, thanks for explaining what the “Russian send off” was, LOL. I didn’t even notice it in Bttrfly’s post. For some who speaks Russian, hehe…

I’ve been reading all you posts and I really have nothing to add here, as far as an advice. You are a trooper… for handling all of this for so long… It sounds very exhausting… Sometimes I am wondering if you would be better off if he moved out like he said he wanted to do… But, then I remember that it would put a huge financial hardship on your family… At the end, you’ve got to decide what is better for you. And I will support you in whatever you will choose to do.

I hope there is less madness this week and you will need to cook less, since he would not eat your meals anyway, LOL. Hang in there, HaWho.

[HaWho]

Hi Huddy, Mleigh, Esame and Bright - nice to hear from you all.

After a crazy few days, the weekend ended peacefully. That might have something to do with the fact that I was an hour away from h! S13 had a tournament on Sunday and I went alone with him. I pulled out of the driveway on two wheels! I did not realize how much of a break I needed.

While at the tournament I sent h a few pics of S13 and sent him a few updates on how he was doing. And h texted a few times asking how S13 was doing. I cracked one joke that old h would have pounced on and laughed about. But MLC h is a lively as a potato. I don't think he even got the joke. Oh well, MLCers have zero sense of humor.

I had a great day.

When I returned home, I came in cheerfully and asked how everyone's day was. H was at the table with S11. As soon as h answered he dashed off to the dorm room not to be seen again the whole night. Loud music soon followed. (And this morning it was blaring at 8AM. He's a real cool teenager!!!)

The distance was so good for me. In fact, I decided one day very soon I will take a road trip during the day, by myself, to recharge my battery.

While away, as nutty as my life has become, in hindsight I am glad when certain crossroads came up, that I made the decisions I made. I am so thankful that I did not agree to anything that dishonors me.

In a few weeks I will be two years post BD (just threw some confetti onto myself). Picture me spitting it out of my mouth and that about sums it up. LOL!

Thank you SO much to everyone here. Special thanks to Job, who has earned her front row seat in heaven by helping me!!!

[kdvor]

HaWho - I am 3 months into this thing and I just keep shaking my head and wondering how you survived 2 years already. What keeps you going?

How do you explain 2 years of this to friends?

[kdvor]

Also HaWho. After all of this. Why do you think he hasn't left? Why DOES He stay? It's all so confusing.

[HaWho]

The beginning of this is the hardest, I promise. I read everything I could find on MLC. And even now, I often re-read old info and new things click for me. That helped me tremendously. All the people here helped me a LOT, too. Job, especially. It helped so much to talk to people who believed in this thing.

I haven't told a single friend about this. I live in a tight knit community and am by nature a private person. (Although that'll surprise you because I post SO much here. I'll tell you why in the next paragraph.). Plus, it is my kids' father and I don't want it getting out to my kids' friends.

Because I have a live-in MLCer, one of the ways I have tried to give back is to post a lot for those coming behind me and for those who are here with MLC spouses who have just vanished. I think little is known about true MLC in the real world. Maybe my posts will help others or those coming behind me?

Why do I think he's still here? I can't know for sure. I have theories. His dad walked out on him as a kid and I do think somewhere deeeep down he knows he'll totally screw his relationship with his kids if he does leave. He has never forgiven his dad. Also, maybe because I took ALL pressure off him? I could see he was nuts and I didn't want him doing too much with my kids in the early days. He lived like a guy who rented a room from me. No lie. Lastly, I believe he stayed to recreate his childhood home to grow up again. Weird, I know but I see proof of it ALL the time. If he ever wakes up, I will ask him to explain as much of this as he can when he is ready.

What keeps me going? My marital vows. I knew there would be "bad times" but gosh, I never expected THIS. Also, I went through my own depression (but it was lollipops and unicorns compared to MLC) and my h stood by me. I do remember how he treated me. He was kind but aloof, gave me space, tried to help in constructive ways (but I had no idea I was depressed). My depression and what led to it humbled me to my knees. I truly realized bad things can happen to good people.

[kdvor]

Do you ever question if things would be better if you were free to find someone else. Not that I want someone else. But i wonder in this one life, shouldn't we have the courage to find someone who loves us and supports us fully?

I love my husband, and I would do anything to keep him and our marraige. But sometimes I wonder if I am nuts to stay in this nightmare.

[HaWho]

Well, I am free to find someone else and so are you. (We're lucky this way as still in some countries in this world women have very few liberties. I can't even imagine not being able to drive a car or leave the house without a male!!)

As for having someone who loves me and supports me fully? I think my h had shown himself to be that. He did stand by me in my depression and that must have been hard. (Although if we are keeping a score card, let me just pencil in that what I am doing with his depression is waaayyy harder. LOL!)

I've known him for almost 20 years now. As hard as the last few years have been, ultimately, it's still just a blip in our time together. He slipped into anger/denial around 2012. The last 2 years of his crisis were particularly hard and painful. (The first two years of his crisis were just very confusing and stressful.) So for 2 years out of 20, it's been bad. That's pretty good!

The way I look at it, it's kind of like looking at the lines in a tree trunk. You can see a tree has lived hundreds of years and that 10 of them were made difficult due to drought. But the tree lives on and grows taller.

Does this mean I'll still be here 5 or 8 years from now? Who knows?!? I have learned to let that kind of thinking go. I think about time in much smaller chunks now.

Personally, even if my h filed right now, I wouldn't change my life too much. I would not date and I would not introduce my kids to anyone. I think that would really confuse my kids. It would take them years and years to heal. I guess I could date secretly in years to come but that's not fair to the person I would be seeing.

The question of courage is an interesting one. It also takes tremendous courage to stand by someone as he falls apart, without letting it destroy you or your kids.

We're all here to support you no matter what. Before you do anything though, just slow down and read a lot about MLC and the impact of divorce on kids so that you make a decision from a place of knowledge and not a rash decision. I know impacts of divorce is what motivated MWD to write DB and DR.

I am not trying to push you one way or the other. As I said this is a supportive group. But I am saying you don't need to make a decision today or tomorrow and you really should not make a decision with reading a lot first. This way, you can have a clear conscience with whatever decision you do make.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

[kdvor]

Thanks Hawho. I appreciate your insight. In all honesty I am not close to leaving him. But I just keep asking myself "why not"? Because I love him. "Why" . He is verbally and phsyically abusive. For my kids? Yes. He is a good dad to them, but what kind of role model am I? I have lived with him 16 years, married 10. Even when times were good, he was very selfish. But I thought I was a good wife putting his needs ahead of mine. Now I just feel like I was a door mat and allowing myself to be more of a door mat.

I am trying to be introspective. Signed up today for a Brene' Brown class. Guess I lost myself along the way. I will find what I can change for me.

[HaWho]

Let me jump over to your thread and we'll carry this conversation on over there.

[HaWho]

Just popping in to give you all an update on the laptop situation. Remember h lost his and then accused us of stealing it? Recently, h asked me if the kids and I use our laptop. He said if not, he would take it over rather than buying a new one to replace the missing one. I told him that we do in fact use it and I advised (very politely) that he buy his own. Guess he never found his.

Otherwise, after the text spewing he gave me last week, he is being PA with meals again. He is back to not eating anything I cook and most times now makes an excuse not to join us for dinner at all. Then he goes and sits in the stinky dorm room instead. H still spends way more time in his room than S13 does. But the gap is closing...

Last night the landline finally rang! S11 answered. It was h calling to talk to S11. Guess h wants to remind s about the usefulness of his gift.

Kids have games this weekend. H has been back to ignoring me and all parents at these events, just like he did in the spring. He puts his headphones in (like in the spring) and only watches when his own kids are playing. I know friends notice the oddness of it all and I am so thankful people are too polite to ask me about it.

[MrBond]

It's amazing isn't it how they change. Keep staying strong. You're doing well.

[Westo]

Flippin heck HaWho, I don't know how you keep sane!

I consider myself lucky as H left 8 months ago and we have had limited contact. I haven't really had much to put up with.

I couldn't cope with what you are going through. you are a saint!

[job]

HaWho,

I about died laughing over the landline call. I guess he's trying to make a point, i.e., ET phone home. LOL!

Poor boo, he so needs a laptop. He should go out and purchase a new one. Now's a good time to do so because companies are trying to build up the hype for the holidays. Of course, he doesn't want to spend any money and is still trying to make a point of it. I'll be curious to hear if he went out and got a new one. Maybe he'll finally wise up and put a tracker on it! LOL!

He is definitely on PA man! He thinks he's punishing you for your behavior. He doesn't realize that he is only making himself look crazy in front of others and hurting himself in the process. Poor Boo! So, what do you think his costume will be this year for Halloween? A ghost from Christmas past?

[HaWho]

Mr. Bond - yep, it is amazing.

Westo - Oh, I don't have to look too far for the humor in it and that saves me.

Job - LOL on the costume idea. The ringing landline cracked me up, too. I realized it doesn't have an outgoing message on it and boy, I sure would like to have some fun with that one. How about: "hi h! I know it's you calling because I am watching you from the computer I stole from you! Just kidding! I know it's you because you're the only one who calls this thing! S11 is not home because he's out riding his awesome bike! Beeeeeep...."

Job - I am dying to see what we all get for XMAS given it's been a banner gift year for the kids. I am betting I get a macaroni necklace...

[2Times2Many]

Hey HaWho. Just caught up with the past couple of weeks and all I can say is "wow." You are an amazing woman.

I echo your thoughts regarding the marriage vows. The words "for better or worse, in sickness and in health" have crossed my mind often. Thus far, I've stuck to my vows and that's been a great source of strength for me through all this. That I was a good person who kept her word.

I kind of agree with Job about the "punishing." My H is very good at that when he doesn't get his way. The funniest one ... when he started staying away for weeks and weeks at a time, I figured what the heck. His little sports car was just collecting dust and cobwebs in the garage so I started driving it ... daily! And I told him so and commented about how much fun it was to drive. Before he left on his next visit here, he took the car to his parents house and parked it in their garage so I couldn't drive it. How dare 2T drive his car. That must be stopped and she must be punished!

Anyway, he would do this "punishing" stuff, either through deeds or hurtful spew and I would let it get to me and upset me and I would react. I finally learned not to react and when he stopped getting a reaction to his drama (punishment), he stopped a lot of it. He still goes there from time to time, but I just go on about my merry way and ignore his antics.

I do find it interesting that your H likes to confront things through texts and email. Mine rarely does that, preferring a curt response along the lines of "we'll discuss it when I get back" if I bring up something. Guess he doesn't want anything "on the record."

Hope your weekend went well.

xoxoxo
2T

[HaWho]

2T - I chuckled over your h taking his toy (his car) and hiding it so no one else could play with it! Nice to hear from you.

Friday h did his PA ignore me routine. No surprises there.

As for the weekend, I was expecting more of the cold shoulder. There were a lot of surprises however. H started to eat my food again and grace us with his presence at dinner.

The weekend started off with him asking my advice on this home remedy I use for the kids. I found it interesting he would take my advice given the various paranoias he's displayed toward me.

He wants to dress the dog up for Halloween. He used to love this holiday and he had a lot of fun planning what he'll do for the dog. It was nice to hear him laughing. This is all a change from 2 years ago when he was so depressed he didn't even seem to know it was Halloween. (And last year he forgot what he had done the previous year [nothing] and had to ask us! He couldn't remember the holiday at all!!!)

On Saturday, he offered to do a,b, and c for me and he made a real show of it. I thanked him but kept waiting for him to drop some unwelcome news. Usually when he does something nice it's because he's about to do something he knows he ought not to do. It never came. He stayed home and in fact, asked us all to take the dog out with him. (Maybe he did the nice things because he had already done the thing he feels guilty for?!?)

Most noteworthy is that he did some parenting this weekend. The boys were squabbling and it was escalating. H left the dorm room and told me he'd take this one. (That's a first in a lonnng time.) Later in the day, kids started to bicker again and h came out and handled that one as well.

Last night he texted me asking about plans for Thanksgiving. We agreed on some plans.

Looks like he'll be doing some peeking out for the holidays. I have seen this pattern before. But, unlike in past years, this time I gave it all very little thought.

[job]

Well, it certainly didn't take long for him to get over his snit and start eating what you cooked again! LOL! I think he's starting to realize that you aren't going to react to his snits so he's going to try a different tactic. Remember, this is how the pursuers and distancers play the game. If they can't get you to chase them one way, they'll try another way.

I'm glad the weekend was much better for you...but stay on your toes! Halloween is just around the corner!

[HaWho]

Job - looks like he's returning to some of his favorite oldie but goodie tactics.

Yesterday he sent me another text (long groan) and was again quite aggressive. It was just a general text about finances but he did make a few jabs at me. Most noteworthy he said something like "you are not a responsible adult" and inferred that he is. That's interesting considering the circumstances.

I ingnored it completely (didn't think about it too much) and that felt great as I am pretty sure he is trying to get me to fight via text, his favorite battleground.

A few hours later another text (he needs a smaller data plan). This time he is asking me to remove the email that links our credit card to a certain service we use. He had asked me to do this a while back and I did it but then recently, I needed to login and re-activated my email and forgot to de-activate it. He tells me if I cannot deactivate this he will "regrettably" have to cancel me off that credit card. Then he finishes by telling me "to stop making his life so hard."

This kind of stuff reminds me of how he was pre-BD. He was looking for fights.

I ignored that one too. But this morning as I was leaving to drop off kids I told him the card will be deactivated within the day. I was pleasant and quick.

I came home after dropping off the kids and h made a joke and was acting all charming. I joked back but also walked right on by.

Seriously, it's like 2 people: the texting personality and the in-person personality.

[Esame]

Maybe his phone needs to follow that old laptop. To be lost forever. And then you should get him his very own landline.

Sorry he is turning more text-crazy by the day though xxx

[HaWho]

Esame - lol! Is it time for h to go (back) to college yet?!?

After a day of nasty texts today he sends me a really cordial one. It is about some recent plans we have that have fallen through. He apologizes and says he'll work on plan B.

I texted something cordial back and acted "as if" but boy, it must be a mess in his head. How do you go from insulting someone one day to being syrupy sweet the next and all with no segue like "hey, sorry about all that cr@p I said about you yesterday."

I swear, it's like multiple personalities.

[Sotto]

Hi HaWho, that is a bit bizarre isn't it? To say to someone - "you're not a responsible adult" - then just breeze on to different, pleasant stuff??

It's a good job you have reached your present level of detachment I think...

Xx

[job]

Keep in mind that they are the masters of projection. I would venture to say that he's actually talking about himself not being a responsible adult or maybe his mother wasn't good at it a long time ago.

Keep on moving forward. I'm praying that the phone gets lost!

[Esame]

It's a good job you have reached your present level of detachment I think...

Sotto what an amazing sentence! So funny and so true at the same time! And it could only apply to our HaWho because... well.. she is well and truly detached from the crazy that takes place in that dorm room.

We should start a petition for the phone to get confiscated by the government or something. The man is dangerous when he is hiding behind that screen...

[HaWho]

Thanks Sotto, Job and Esame. Job - that projection certainly could apply to both him and his mother.

I am seeing lots of weird stuff over here. Mostly, extreme irritability, extreme happiness and then strange comments. It's odd. Not sure what this is all about. Here are a few examples.

H shows moments of boisterous enthusiasm: when he greets the dog and over the start of NBA season. He said he is very excited basketball started again and it's a level of engagement he has not shown in a lonnnng time.

The other night h wanted ketchup with something on his meal. He asked if "we" were out of it. I said "hmm, not sure; I never eat it." H announces in a very exaggerated way "so 'WE' need ketchup and tea" (a specific tea that only he drinks). I don't say anything but I realize I rarely think in "we" terms anymore.

Last night h and s13 started bickering in the most ridiculous way. Like two kids. H said s13 told him he needed a ride to x place. S13 said he did not say that but that he had said he needed a ride to z place. Over that they started to squabble. H: "you DID say it." S13: "no, I didn't." And repeat that a few times. I started to laugh because it was like a vaudeville skit. When I laughed out loud h scolded in a sneering way (sooo irritably) "what are YOU laughing about? What is SO funny?" I said "THIS is funny. It's so ridiculous it's funny. And just because you are cranky does not mean we all have to be." He simmered right down. S13 told h that h always thinks he is right and can never admit fault. H said "I am right." Very mature all around. When h left the room S13 said: "it's really immature that he is almost 50 and acting like that."

This morning the music from the dorm room started pre-8 AM. I just had to get away from it. I left for coffee and to grab bagels. When I returned, I was walking up to the door and my dog started to bark. Guess he didn't recognize it was me. One of h's dorm windows faces the path to the door and he has this plantation shutter on the window. When the dog started barking h snapped "what the
h€ll?" and loudly slammed the shutter closed. So cranky. Does he think I was peeking in there?!? He reminded me of Oscar the Grouch slamming the lid to his garbage can.

Today at S11's game, h started a conversation with a couple who recently moved here. He was so present. I had my headphones in and made a point of removing them and saying "sorry! Don't mean to be rude keeping my headphones in!" (Hopefully h will get the cue about headphone manners 101.). H introduced me as his wife and made the intro definitively, not like it was a gaffe. I just ignored it. It's weird given he does not treat me like his wife and also given the way he lives his life within the home. It feels real phony.

He went into S13's room one morning. He never goes into any of our rooms. When he came into the kitchen S11 asked "why did you go in there?!?" H said "to wake him up." It was kind of sad all around that it makes headlines when he goes into one of their rooms. I am not sure h read the surprise or even understood why S11 expressed it.

H seems to be all over the place right now. And I also notice that he gets even more cranky with me when I am happy. I hate to mind read but me thinks he wants me miserable.

[job]

Oh my! The goblins have arrived early! Sounds like he's having a heck of a time figuring out which age he should be right now. You might see a lot of this behavior between now and the holidays.

Unfortunately, he's not a happy camper and when they see us happy and doing fun things, they tend to pull out some tricks to try to make us as miserable they are. Keep doing what you are doing. He's teething, just like a baby getting his teeth.

Happy Halloween!

[HaWho]

Job - yes, seems he was all over.

The last few days have been, again, different. A few days ago, I was watching the news in the living room. H told S11 that they were going to continue working on this essay. Every once in a while h initiates some academic pursuit with s11 and this is one of those tasks. H asked s11 where he wanted to work. I said "let me get out of your way so the tv is not distracting you." H said "no, stay" in a very kind tone. This was a first in a lonnng while. But I politely declined. He again insisted I not leave. I told him I have enforced a no tv while doing academic work rule (sad that this is news to him when he LIVES with them!!!) and I did want to finish the news program elsewhere.

Over the weekend he found this box of extension cords and made a big show of it. He told me how much money he was saving by finding this?!? I joked: "and how much do you think you can sell it for?" But then I thought, I wonder if he is in his past somewhere as he did grow up quite poor. So I said: "that's great! Those will come in handy at XMAS and we won't have to buy more." He, like a little kid said: "I KNOW! That's what I thought." He seemed hurt that I initially teased him. I told him good job. (I do think that may have been the little boy.)

Halloween we ended up driving together to go meet S11 at a friend's house. We always take separate cars if the kids aren't with us. This time, I waited longer to leave just to see what he would do. As he was leaving he asked if we were riding together. I said probably not as I was bringing the dog. (The day before the dog had just thrown up in h's precious car! Now the dog is not allowed in there.) So as I was taking the dog I was also taking my car and h avoids my car like the plague. But he said let's ride together. We didn't talk for most of the ride. Then he brought up something to do with the stock market. We small talked. It was like hitching a ride with a co-worker.

This morning he sent me a text. I was waiting for the craziness to start. He told me something was wrong with his phone and if I had sent him something between midnight and then, it would not have been received and so I should re-send it. Ummm. Hmm. I was going to make a joke, but there's no point. Humor is lost on him. So I just said "ok" a few hours later when I saw it.

Of course, this was all moot as I never sent anything in the first place.

[HaWho]

Tad bit more immature PA behavior surfacing from h. I adhere to a pretty strict budget. H seems to have tamped down his spending but I know for sure he's taking more financial liberties than I am. (But nothing compared to what he was doing last year.)

So I do the grocery shopping and h left me the receipts for 2 items I did not buy this week. They total 10 bucks and he wants it taken out of my budget. His entitlement is just extraordinary given his spending last spring. When he came home with the items he made a big show of it. He was passive aggressively trying to tell me I don't take good care of him/his needs. I ignored it all.

Today is my 2 year BD anniversary. Can't believe I've been in this sitch that long.

Two years ago h gave me the speech from h€ll. Today he is sick with something S11 caught. I offered to make him breakfast. He accepted. So, at about the same time as he bombed, I brought him breakfast. I hope God caught that good deed. Ha ha.

This year I don't feel any of the tension about this date and the memories that surround it. Sometimes, though, I scratch my head in wonder that my "strategy" is to try and outlast this craziness that is MLC. Yes, I am moving forward and all that, but still, what a weird existence . . .

This next part will be like a PSA for the LBS dealing with the MLC spouse. But, what you're told in the beginning? It's all true. It just takes a long time to see it all. I finally get it.

I didn't cause this. It took me FOREVER to get that piece. My MLCer was telling me, 24/7, that I did cause it. You can't stop it, nor should you try. (I did that TOO and yes, it's waaay worse the second time). Moving forward begins with getting busy. When you think about your sitch frequently, switch the channel in your head. Detaching is hard. Once you begin though, you start to understand that it was actually harder to hold on. So it becomes easier to detach further and motivates you to put more distance between yourself and this person's mess. It's less painful and people always move away from pain/toward pleasure.

I owe Cadet an apology. In the beginning, he tells us all we've been given the gift of time. When I first read that I gave a big eye roll. I pictured Cadet as one of those happy-go-lucky guys who frolicked through the forest and chirped with birds. Subsequently, I have read Cadet's posts and know he was giving me wisdom I wasn't ready to swallow. So, if you're reading, Cadet, sorry. But, what he writes is true. You can spend all your time worrying about this and it won't change one thing. So, then it's all on you how you spend your time.

In the end, seeing the MLCer day in and day out, I feel sorry for these people. Hard as this is on the LBS, I am so grateful I am not going through MLC. As they self destruct they sure do leave a lot of collateral damage in their wakes.

I have seen (and continue to see) such bizarre things, that I have to find the humor in it all. Who knew such weirdness would enter my life.

[Pax_luv]

Hawho, what a great post and reflection. Thanks for sharing so honestly.

Re: your h. I rolled my eyes with the receipts..... Really?!?!! I mean, really?!? Ive said it before and I'll say it again... I feel bad for your h. He really is Peter Pan... One of the lost boys. I never want to come in here and be judgemental so I apologize if it comes off that way. You just amaze me with your humor while remaining grounded. I do think you get brownie points with the man upstairs for making breakfast today!

[BrightFuture]

HaWho, sorry about your BD anniversary… It is a long time considering that your MLCer lives at home. But, it is not too long for an average MLC. I’ve been reading your posts all along and I’m still amazed how your H exhibits all the classic signs of MLC and actually reenacting things from his childhood.

I’m with you on “gift of time”, LOL. I was reading this and thinking that it didn’t apply to me. I was already a person I needed to be, so this whole experience was just a pain, no more. I was so wrong. I’ve grown so much over these years. I can see now the wisdom of these words. I think I still need more time, haha. This is why I’m not pocking at H and making him move one way or another.

Thanks for posting your story HaWho. It gives all of us a very good idea what these MLCer are going through. I hope you did earn the brownie points for the breakfast today too! Take care and have a good weekend.

[HaWho]

Feyth - no offense taken. He really is Peter Pan.

Bright - phfew, that's great you don't need surgery. I can't earn too many brownie points for the breakfast. I was already making something for the kids and just offered him some as well.

More text spewing from h. H did not feel well yesterday. S13 thought he didn't have a game last night and apparently told h so. In actuality s13 did have a game. At dinner he told h. H said he already made plans. Guess h wasn't too sick afterall. It was hard to see the look of disappointment on s13's face.

As h was leaving he gave this totally fake cough. Ha ha. I did laugh as of course, if he was so sick he'd be in bed.

I took the kids to the game. An hour and a half later, I happen to see two texts from h. He texts that he is not feeling well and can come pick up s11 who had been under the weather mid-week. S11 says he wants to stay. So I text h that we are set at the game.

H texts me a nasty message telling me to stop playing idiot games (?!?!?) and stop wasting his time and energy all the time. Lately this is his refrain: that I waste all his time and am this total nuisance in his life. Kind of funny since I steer clear of him.

I text back that s said he wants to stay. H said s11 is sick and should go home. Umm. Of course, if h was so worried about s11 being sick he should have changed his plans when he realized s13 had a game and s11 would have to come. Anyway, h shows up to the game in a total huff and tells me he is here to pick up "his" son. He comes across as the most petty teenager.

Next time I will have s11 call h directly and let them work it out themselves. I guess I am back to bad HaWho.

[Esame]

Sorry about the two year bombversary HaWho. It must be hard dealing with his idiocy and craziness day in day out for that long.

I'm also staying oust of H's communication with the kids. I actually gave the kids an old mobile so that whenever their "Disney" dad feels like doing some parenting he can call them directly.

Don't be too harsh on yourself sweetie, you are doing amazingly well xxx

[Ginger1]

I am going to go anti-BD here. Please forgive me. Your H angers me more than he angers you.

I know you don't want to leave. I know you have a strong sense in your vows and he was around for your depression. I completely understand that.

But when he says such awful things about how you are a nuisance in your life, did you ever tell him, well, you have the option to leave it and I am not keeping you here against your will? That he isn't a prisoner and he could make his own choices?

That would be the truth dart I would throw directly at in his eye. He is seriously being abusive and rude now and your are as loving as could be to him. You definitely have a special spot reserved for you in heaven.

[2Times2Many]

Hi HaWho. I wanted to pop in and say hi.

I totally, 1000%, agree with your "lecture" to the newer LBSs here. I thought the same thing you did about the gift of time. But Cadet is right on the money. The inner growth I've gained is extraordinary.

As for your h's recent antics ... it has been my experience that when I am happy and satisfied with the way I'm navigating through my life, my h will try to throw a monkey wrench into things. I realized that a while ago. It seemed like every time a reached a point of feeling like I have a handle on all this, he'd do or say something that would take me 2 or 3 steps back.

You seemed to have a reached a point that you can go about your business and not let it get under your skin (or at least that he sees). I think he'll give up trying to provoke you eventually. I think they need to figure out that they can't "get to you" anymore. In the meantime, stay strong!

{{{Hugs}}}
2T

[HaWho]

Well, this is a weird one, more texting from h and I'd love some advice.

First, thanks Esame, Ginger and 2T.

Ginger - the issue is he is totally PA. He just infers I am a nuisance but never actually says it directly. Instead he says "you are wasting my time" over these silly things that take 2 seconds to resolve. He knows he can leave. But, I am not going to tell him that when he voices mere cranky annoyances.

2T - that is what I sense. He is miserable and I am not. And he is trying so hard to pick a fight.

Speaking of which, I woke up to more crazy texting. Not sure how to respond. He is definitely stuck in the past. This weekend he told us he kept dreaming he was back in his childhood apartment only we were there with him. It's so weird he can't see it's a nightmare he HAS actually created and now he lives it.

Anyway, we are going back east for XMAS and we've been invited to his best friend's house to have dinner with his family. H sends a bizarre text saying the following: "x night we are invited to my friend's house and I'd like you to join us if you can act well. No crying, pouting, criticizing me, no problems. If friendly and discreet behavior isn't possible, I will take the boys and give you private time. As for family visits, I am happy to join you and our boys. But, not if I am made to feel unwelcome/uncomfortable. I know I can behave well in all scenarios. And I can entertain myself if friendly behavior is not exhibited by you. So I am flexible. Your call. Let me know soon so I can plan accordingly. Thanks."

How weird. He thinks I am going to cry and cause problems?!? I hate to mind read but I know when he was little, at a holiday, his mother got into a huge, very emotional, Jerry Springer-like fight with someone and they ended up leaving in the middle of dinner! I can't help but wonder if this isn't another case of him projecting his mother onto me. I know he always felt uncomfortable going to his extended family's house, too. He has always been welcome at my family's.

My gut tells me he is in the past on this one and maybe this is the little boy. It's uncanny how similar this is to that holiday with his mom.

Thoughts?

[job]

Yep, the little boy has come out to play and he sees you as his mother and him as the child. I wouldn't get into it w/him. I would just say whatever you wish to do is fine by me and if you wish to discuss it further, we can do it over a cup of coffee or a snack. Then let it be. It tells him that you are open to speak orally w/him. Sometimes we have to make a move to get them to move an inch.

These text message deals need to be stopped. You both are living under the same roof and he needs to be speaking to you directly in person about this stuff. Texting is a PA move on his part so that he doesn't have to deal w/you face to face and you don't have the opportunity to challenge and/or dispute his nonsense. Time to do a 180 and not respond to all of his texts and when he cries about you not responding, advise him that you are available to speak to him directly about the issues and will be happy to do so in person, not via text, telephone or email.

HaWho...time to do a little testing in the old MLC Lab. Time to try something different and help him move an inch.

[HaWho]

I agree Job and sent him a message telling him that. He never responded. He seemed angry/grumpy with me until later in the evening. At one point I was leaving with the kids and h said goodbye so cheerfully to the kids. But to me? He said bye in this super flat, depressed voice. The disparity between the tones was laughable.

I assume he will continue to test this texting boundary.

This trip back east ought to be interesting. Sounds like he's already worrying about it all. He really is stuck in the past.

It's so weird. Sometimes I still can't believe how real this thing can be.

Thanks Job.

[job]

Yes, just like a teenager, he is going to be testing the boundary on text messages, etc. He's doing everything he can to rattle your cage. He tries one thing, it doesn't work to rile you up and then he tries something else. He's a very frustrated man child right now.

If I recall, he has some anxiety just before your family came to visit recently. He has nothing but time on his hands and he knows that if he goes, he's going to have to wear a "mature" mask and act like a grown up and that worries him. He's afraid that people will be watching and judging him for his actions/behavior. Of course, we all know that we don't have any control over what they say or do, but we get blamed if someone questions them about their behavior, etc. They don't realize that they tell on themselves.

I wouldn't worry to much about him and his anxiety. He'll either go or stay home w/his tree. But the most important thing is that you and your sons have a great time. I'm sure you are looking forward to coming east for the holidays.

[Ginger1]

Just my 2 cents here:

Why did you send a message to tell him to stop sending messages?

You are a brave woman. Tell him to his FACE! Let him know if he has anything to say, he could address you directly, not via text or email. I bet saying that to his FACE would make an impact.

I'm sorry I sound so pushy. From where I sit, whether or not he's got his childhood issues and is recreating something, you deserve to be treated with respect. Again, I may differ in this, but there appears to be no consequence to him acting like a disrespectful a$$ to you. Can you punish him? no. He does get his kids cared for without much effort from him, a clean house, dinner in front of him, and you treat him so kindly.

Maybe time to really shake it up a bit to lay those boundaries.

I say this with love and respect.

[roist]

You have gotten some great insightful feedback from.some wise people.I agree with them.

Another way to look at it could be that H is unable to openly discuss his thoughts. It is not only easier to do so in text but maybe the only way he is capable of communicating "openly".

In the past I have expressed my sentiments to my W in written format. I wasn't capable to formulate my thoughts as good in front of her. It would have been preferable and much better to openly discuss stuff, but at the time I was depressed and even without the depression it is not natural to me. Maybe he is a coward but chances are he cannot contemplate doing it otherwise.

I am not saying this for you to let it slide. I believe good boundaries are important.I say this so you feel less negative towards him and his texts.
And hopefully they will not affect you then.

Best wishes

[2Times2Many]

HaWho, I agree with Job and Ginger. Perhaps when he sends messages like that, you can respond you'll be happy to discuss it with him whenever he likes and then drop it or ignore future texts about the same issue until he comes to you to talk face to face. He'll get angry or moody or pouty, but let him. He'll get over it.

I'm willing to bet that you don't communicate important issues with your boys this way and my question would be why let your h get away with it? He's having issues but you can set boundaries and let him know you expect him to civil and respectful to you.

Sorry if I was too blunt ... just my 2 cents.

xoxoxo
2T

[HaWho]

Ginger - You are right! Once now I have told him via text that I will no longer have deep conversations via IPhone. The second time (just yesterday) I told him to come talk to me to discuss this further. The third time he tries I will tell him to his face. Thanks for all your advice; it really does help. And yes, I do need stronger boundaries around him.

Roist - my h has always wanted to handle confrontation via letter. I am pretty sure he was stunted in this area from his mother who was an emotional train wreck in his early years. Her responses were always erratic and plain nuts.

Recently, somewhere, I read that distancers have issues with emotional responses, in general. The article I read advised to play around with the speed of speech, facial expressions, animated hand gestures and volume and I found it to be true. My h seems to get antsy with any emotionally charged situations, even happy ones!!! It seems to overwhelm him. I thought of Mleigh's h, too!

Job - I cannot wait to go home for XMAS. H and his antics are not going to stop my fun and enjoyment. Plus he is leaving earlier than we are.

That said, I don't think he'll be able to paint that mask on for so many days. When we last saw family, two years ago, h had just bombed me. H was talking to my BIL and my BIL told my sister that something was very wrong with my h. BIL said h seemed off and illogical. He said he could not follow my h's train of thought! I played dumb to my sister. But my BIL is sharp as a tack and trust me, he'll be probing as his instincts are really good. He still asks my sister if h is okay!

Last time, h also confronted his mother with some childhood things she did. They were in fact all awful things. But he did it in front of all is us! Even in front of her 2nd h. When I tried to suggest that was a conversation for the sidelines, he blew up at me. So yes, Job, I know he'll blame me. Back then, Job speculated he confronted her like that because he felt safe in a group.

I can see this is going to be really hard for him.

[job]

Please start a new thread. Thanks!

[HaWho]

Job, I will start a new thread.

But first, I wanted to post what h just said on his way from the kitchen to the dorm room:

"Now I am going to go grow old in the cave."

Oh, how I wanted to say: "hopefully you're going to grow up before you grow old..."

New Thread:

Under a Big Umbrella