Confused on What to Do 3

[Eagle11]

Link to my previous thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2703199#Post2703199

Thanks everyone for the help and advice so far. I am trying to GAL. I am taking my S6 to a golf tournament this weekend. I have taken him in the past and he really enjoys it so I got us tickets to go. Also, I might be able to do the hike I had to put off last weekend this Sunday. I am also planning on getting up early to go to the gym tomorrow. I used to go 3 or 4 times a week, but for about the last month I have made it about once a week. The goal is to go Friday and possibly Sunday (might depend on the hike). Then starting on Monday I want to get back to going at least 3 times a week. I have the cub scouts with my S6 on Monday night as well.

I'm also going to take some more responsibility. My S6 parent teacher conferences are next week and usually my W would go and I would stay home with the kids. I am going to go this time. I figure since I am the one with my S the most I should be the one talking to his teacher about his development. He has been having some anxiety problems and I want to talk to his teacher about how he is doing.

[job]

Eagle,
You sound so strong today. I'm glad you are taking your S6 to the golf tournament. That will be so much fun for the both of you. Your GAL activities sound great!

I also like the fact that you are going to participate in the parent/teacher conferences. Definitely speak to his teacher about his anxiety issues. She needs to know this in order to better help him in the classroom.

[CT1118]

Eagle11 - Did that NMMNG book arrive yet? I was cyber stalking Eric's advice to you the entire time, so I found a free podcast of the book on the net.

I am 2+hours into it, which puts me around chapter 3. I will go back and read it, but, to quote my 21 year old niece, "OMFG"! Get the book to your house, put it into a blender, and then pour it into your brain.

I never thought I was a nice guy, and it was advice to you, but I spend a lot of time driving, so I thought why not listen to the podcast. Seems I did not know what a nice guy was or how they are made. Can't say all of is spot on for me, but enough to where I see that some of the things addressed I seem to have already begun to remove by instinct, but now I see with some focus there are other things. Many other things. Get reading, tell us what you think.

[Eagle11]

CT1118,

Booked arrived yesterday and I've got thru the first couple of chapters. I'm hoping to get thru a lot of it this weekend. From what I read so far I definitely have some nice guy traits. Will be interesting to read when I get into the advice or how to break these traits

[AndrewP]

I've read some interesting reviews about that book on GoodReads but not the book itself. Some of the reviewers don't seem to think much of the book based at least in part on their opinions on the author.

As they say - your mileage may vary.

[CT1118]

You ok Eagle?

[Eagle11]

You ok Eagle?

I'm doing good. Although there was a major slip up last Saturday. Wife and I kissed. She was drunk and I was maybe a little. We both apologized. The last 2 days were normal and it wasn't brought up. Everything has been cool with us for a while now but that kiss came out of nowhere.

The rest of the weekend was good. I took my S6 to the golf tournament and we had a great time on Saturday. On Sunday I got to the gym in the morning and took my son to driving range to practice golf. I think he was inspired by watching the pros on Saturday because he hasnt got his clubs out the closet in probably 2 months. Later Sunday got the sprinklers out for both kids and they played in them and them went and got dinner Sunday night.

Today I got up at 5:30 to go to gym and this evening my son and I went to his cub scout meeting. We had a lot of fun at the meeting and he is looking forward to a camping trip next month.

W is going out of town for the next 2 days so I am single dad again until Thursday afternoon but I don't mind it. I actually seem more relaxed and I seem to sleep better when W is out of town.

I've got through maybe half of No More Mr. Nice Guy and at first I didn't really think the book related to me that much but as I've gotten into some more recent chapters I see myself. I should be able to finish it in the next 2 days and can give a better report on the book.

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

I was away on vacation and did not have time to post, at least not what I am about to post now.

I asked you about how you planned to change the lack of confidence and your response was:

I honestly don't know the correct answer. I have to figure it out. I know I have been reading and learning from others on here. I have got books that were recommended to me. I am seeing a therapist. I have to figure out a plan and I have to do it soon. I have to become more decisive.

Today I want you to go look in the mirror. Stare at yourself for a while. Then start to say outloud. I am confident. I am confident. DO this as often as you can. You need to start changing how YOU feel about yourself. Reading is great, the IC is great…coming to the boards is great. Honestly though….it really is about CHOOSING to believe it and live it. That means, when you start to feel not confident that you change what you are thinking and replace it with…. I am confident, I am confident.

I have to get back to doing the things I enjoy doing. I need to do things for myself. My W has always felt I was selfish (and I was at times), so I have been reluctant to do things I used to always do. Even last weekend. I wanted to go on the hike but I couldn't do it because she had to work at the last minute.

1) She is texting 2 OM – F*ck what she thinks right now.
2) Taking time for yourself and doing things for YOU is not selfish. Period.
3) Believing someone who has asked to divorce you 3 times, is seeing 2 OM and expect you to be Mr. Mom all the time is NOT healthy.
4) Stop being reluctant and create a PLAN. For example, once every other Thursday (use whatever date works for you) COMMUNICATE to your W that you have plans to do something. She can either be home to watch the kids while you take a little time for yourself OR she can find a baby sitter. Stop enableing her behavior. Take time for you.
5) Next time you want to go on a hike, tell her that you have already made plans. You are not her on call day care provider.
6) Promise me that in the next 3 weeks that you will go play GOLF. With NO kids.

I asked you what the perfect life looked like to you. You responded.

My dreams were to get a good education (I did), find a great job that I loved doing (I didn't), find a woman to marry (I found 2 so far), have kids (I have 2), Own a nice house in a nice part of the country (I just bought a house in June). I wanted to be a great father (getting better) and a great husband (not so much).

This ^^^^^ sounds like a cookie cutter response. Think outside the box dude. Make it personal. Really what does this amazing life that you want really look like? Hell mine includes traveling every other month, Hanging out with my friends, large parties where I cook a huge pig, having dinner with my friends and family, spending time with my sons just shooting the chit over a beer, ATV rides on the beach, Horse back rides on the beach, porn star sex with my partner (you know the kinds that makes your head spin around like the excorsist). Be a bit specific man! Just imagine if the world was yours what would that life really look like?

She was such a free spirit and I wasn't. In many ways we were opposites. She says she is introverted but not like me. I loved her spontaneity and the fact the she seemed to be really enjoying life. She never complained and she was always there for me. Over the years that changed in her and I think it was more me changing her than her wanting to change. I think I became too negative and that really brought her down.

Reading this ^^^^ it seems like YOU FED OFF of her energy and did not create any yourself. Honestly, you sounded kind of boring. Maybe Eagle, it is time to stop DEPENDING on OTHERS and start to create the “enjoying life, free spirit and spontanetity” YOURSELF. Fun is attractive, full of life is attractive….become this person if that is what you like. And before you start with all sort of excuses…..the only excuse you have is REALLY – YOU.

I tried to talk her out wanting the house but her mind was set. From then on I started worrying about money. It was also the first time in our M that I felt I didn't have a say in a big decision. We were going to buy that house regardless of what I had to say. I actually spoke up back then, but was shot down and then just gave in to her.

You made a mistake – now it’s time to get over it. That said, it seems that this may have been a key shift in the R. I wonder did you ever voice FIRMLY your disagreement with certain positions/decisions after this? Eagle, IMHO, healthy R’s are ones where the power (decision making, etc.) shifts between both parties of an R. Any one side having all of the power is NOT healthy. Also, you are a man. Women, IMO, still look for a man that provides leadership. A man that will stick to his convictions. That is not to say…that men should be macho arseholes. No. However, large decisions such as purchasing a house should be agreed upon by BOTH people.

I can give up on the snooping. I need to give up on the snooping. My life would be so much better if I gave up on the snooping. If I could just forget my phone account password my life would be better. Letting her go completely is a hard one. I know I have to get to that point, but I'm not there yet.

First, that first part of the above is so freaking whishy washy. Dude, it very simple – stop SNOOPING. Stop making excuses for snooping. As for letting her go, you will be unable to UNTIL you become the man you want to be. You will be unable to until you face the fears you have. The status quo is easy. Change is hard. Either way – Eagle all of this is YOUR CHOICE. Stop with the excuses already.

I have been so hard on myself. I'm much harder on myself than I am my W through this. I just feel if I could have realized what I had become we wouldn't be in this sitch.

1) Her Life Crisis is NOT your fault. Stop blaming yourself.

2) Her issues are NOT your fault. Stop blaming yourself.

3) You are hard on yourself, IMO, because that is what YOU are used to. It is what you have learned to deal with challenges in your life. Remember this…..YOU are ONLY a ViCTIM if YOU CHOOSE to be.

4) Honestly, based on your story…and based on what you have written about your W – you would been here NO matter what YOU did/didn’t do. The key……is what are YOU really going to do NOW – with the TIME you have been given.

I know she has had her faults, but I keep thinking of things I didn't do to make the M work.

Ummm….join the rest of society brother. Most R’s have issues and usually it is the result of both sides. So….in time, you will begin to accept things that YOU could have done better and IF you do the work – those issues will get resolved.

This all came about when I found out about the pain she has been in with her dad and stepdad. She broke down and said she felt abandoned by them. She felt that everybody leaves her. This was also before OM2 came into the picture. I told her I wasn't mad and I wouldn't abandon her. She was going to therapy at the time, I naively thought she would try to work her issues out. The OM was "just a texting friend". A couple of weeks later there is another OM and I felt like an idiot. Now I feel since I told her I wouldn't abandon her then I won't. I know that is stupid, but that's what i did.

I’m all for supporting your W. I do not agree with throwing your self worth down the drain to do it. Your claims of “I will not abandon you”, while she has 2 OM is…..honestly……you showing HER that you do not value YOURSELF. It is unattractive. I am not saying that you should yell and scream at her. I am saying that if you have nothing nice to say – say nothing. Look man, she has issues….well she has a therapist she can see, she has 2 OM that she can talk to about it. YOU cannot FIX HER.

Let me repeat….

YOU cannot FIX HER.

She was pouring her heart out to me like she never had. I honestly thought this might have been a turning point, but I of course was wrong.

Einstein’s definition of insanity – “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”. Said another way – DB101 – Do what works. I could have told you that you were going to be wrong. You are doing the same thing. You are p*ssy footing around her. YOU are not showing strength of self respect. Eagle – it is time to do something different (more on this in a bit).

I asked you about WHO YOU wanted to be. Your response was…I need to figure it out. Dude, what is there to figure out…really man. Be f*cking honest with yourself.

A good friend of mine (I’ll refer to him as – Mach)….once asked me the same question and boy did I struggle – just like you are. What I learned was that when I really detached and stop chitting in my pants everytime my ex was around, when I stopped worrying about if I was going to be able to feed my kids, where I was going to live, the impact on my life….when I really stop worrying about (in part because really I could only control but so much)…..When I stopped worrying and really just allow myself to be….. ME

When I removed the mental barriers
When I got real with myself
Well them….I knew deep down what I wanted. It really was all the dreams I’ve had…

I wanted to be that was honorable, that was trustworthy, that was loving, that was kinds, that gave of himself with no expectation, I wanted to be a dad that I could be proud of, I wanted to stop being afraid, I wanted to NEVER lie to myself, I wanted to pick up the mirror every day…and commit to doing my best in life. When I became real….OMG – it all fell into place man.
You can do this man!

I also believe despite what people say children aren't always so resilient and will be fine. We can do our best to help them, but when they see their family get torn apart at such a young age it will have an effect on them.

Honestly….the kids are going to feel it – regardless of the outcome. I could tell you the fairy tale story (the one where everything goes back to normal the kids never even knew what happened) but that is not reality. What you can do, is YOUR best to shield them from this as much as possible. To create an enviornement where they can express how they feel to you, where they feel very comfortable talking to you about how they feel. That is all you can do. Well….there is one thing you can do…….. You can use them as an excuse. You can use them as an excuse to avoid GALing, to keep yourself stuck. As with everything – the choice is YOURS.
Eagle, I am going to close this post with what may not be a popular viewpoint.

You can continue to talk or you can begin to act. IMHO, it is time that you start ACTING. Let me expand.

Your W is seeing two OM, you are a stay a home dad that is worried about his future and what a D may look like. IMO, I would go see a lawyer. I would EDUCATE myself on what my rights are. If anything – it should but you to ease. Now I would not go and tell your W that you are doing this. This is for YOU.

Remember the journal I asked you to pick up? I woud like you to start journalling every day, what you do with thd kids, what time you feed them, etc. The journal should be kept somewhere that no one can find it.

I would start going out at least ONCE every two weeks. I don’t care if it is a drive….just get out. Period. No freaking excuses.

I would keep your conversations with your W to the bare minimum. No happy chatter, nada. When asked why you are quite – your canned response should be…nothing I have a lot on my mind. Keep her guessing dude.

Now…please….give some more thought to WHO you want to be and let me know who that guy is.

Peace,
Eric

[CT1118]

"My God, it's full of stars" Dr. David Bowman, 2001 A Space Odyssey.

[Eagle11]

Eric,

I hope you had a great vacation.

Today I want you to go look in the mirror. Stare at yourself for a while. Then start to say outloud. I am confident. I am confident. DO this as often as you can. You need to start changing how YOU feel about yourself. Reading is great, the IC is great…coming to the boards is great. Honestly though….it really is about CHOOSING to believe it and live it. That means, when you start to feel not confident that you change what you are thinking and replace it with…. I am confident, I am confident.

I will start doing this. I have some days that I feel confident and that I can do what I want. I have other days where I feel hopeless. I often have both feelings in the same day. Today I had the confident feeling most of the day. Then tonight my W called home to talk to the kids (she is out of town for work) and something seemed off with her. She was very short with me and rude, which is something she hasn't been lately. I made me wonder if something had went on tonight. It's stupid to think about this and I need to stop. I am letting her control my emotions. I need to stop that.

1) She is texting 2 OM – F*ck what she thinks right now.
2) Taking time for yourself and doing things for YOU is not selfish. Period.
3) Believing someone who has asked to divorce you 3 times, is seeing 2 OM and expect you to be Mr. Mom all the time is NOT healthy.
4) Stop being reluctant and create a PLAN. For example, once every other Thursday (use whatever date works for you) COMMUNICATE to your W that you have plans to do something. She can either be home to watch the kids while you take a little time for yourself OR she can find a baby sitter. Stop enableing her behavior. Take time for you.
5) Next time you want to go on a hike, tell her that you have already made plans. You are not her on call day care provider.
6) Promise me that in the next 3 weeks that you will go play GOLF. With NO kids.

1. That is the attitude I need to have all the time.
2. Thank you. I have been reading the No More Mr. Nice Guy book you recommended and this is brought up in the book. I am beginning to understand this concept.
3. You are correct. I really don't believe in her right now and I don't believe anything she says to me. I can't trust her. She is two different people. She is one person when she is at home, but as soon as she leaves she turns into someone else that can't be trusted.
4. I will do this. Even if its just to get out and drive or walk around. I need to have time for myself because I don't have any right now.
5. Done
6. Done

This ^^^^^ sounds like a cookie cutter response. Think outside the box dude. Make it personal. Really what does this amazing life that you want really look like? Hell mine includes traveling every other month, Hanging out with my friends, large parties where I cook a huge pig, having dinner with my friends and family, spending time with my sons just shooting the chit over a beer, ATV rides on the beach, Horse back rides on the beach, porn star sex with my partner (you know the kinds that makes your head spin around like the excorsist). Be a bit specific man! Just imagine if the world was yours what would that life really look like?

I see your point. I need to find out what I really want in life and it is something I am really struggling with.

Reading this ^^^^ it seems like YOU FED OFF of her energy and did not create any yourself. Honestly, you sounded kind of boring. Maybe Eagle, it is time to stop DEPENDING on OTHERS and start to create the “enjoying life, free spirit and spontanetity” YOURSELF. Fun is attractive, full of life is attractive….become this person if that is what you like. And before you start with all sort of excuses…..the only excuse you have is REALLY – YOU.

I did become boring. We both did. I might have started going thru the motions of life. I am not really sure. I know I was more fun to be around when we started out and something happened along the way. I know raising the kids took a lot of fun out of social life.

You made a mistake – now it’s time to get over it. That said, it seems that this may have been a key shift in the R. I wonder did you ever voice FIRMLY your disagreement with certain positions/decisions after this? Eagle, IMHO, healthy R’s are ones where the power (decision making, etc.) shifts between both parties of an R. Any one side having all of the power is NOT healthy. Also, you are a man. Women, IMO, still look for a man that provides leadership. A man that will stick to his convictions. That is not to say…that men should be macho arseholes. No. However, large decisions such as purchasing a house should be agreed upon by BOTH people.

I have thought about this and I feel it was either purchasing the house or her first EA that was a major turning point in our relationship. They were about 18 months apart. At some point around this time I became scared of losing her I feel. I was thinking about this today and trying to remember back to this time. I know I started resenting her a little when we bought the house. As far as I can remember it was the first big decision we made together as a married couple and she controlled the situation.

First, that first part of the above is so freaking whishy washy. Dude, it very simple – stop SNOOPING. Stop making excuses for snooping. As for letting her go, you will be unable to UNTIL you become the man you want to be. You will be unable to until you face the fears you have. The status quo is easy. Change is hard. Either way – Eagle all of this is YOUR CHOICE. Stop with the excuses already.

I have been beaten over the head with this by many on here. I need to stop. It is doing me no good and I know that.

1) Her Life Crisis is NOT your fault. Stop blaming yourself.

2) Her issues are NOT your fault. Stop blaming yourself.

3) You are hard on yourself, IMO, because that is what YOU are used to. It is what you have learned to deal with challenges in your life. Remember this…..YOU are ONLY a ViCTIM if YOU CHOOSE to be.

4) Honestly, based on your story…and based on what you have written about your W – you would been here NO matter what YOU did/didn’t do. The key……is what are YOU really going to do NOW – with the TIME you have been given.

1. I know it's not my fault. I have been having a hard time knowing I can't fix her problems though. I think I am a fixer. I am one who has attracted women with problems without realizing it. I think I read about this in the NMMNG book as well.
2. I know.
3. I understand where you are coming from. I believe what you are saying. I have always been hard on myself, that is what I do.
4. I have been thinking about this and I think you are right. I have actually thought this would come at some point. For a while now (before this sitch even started) I have almost anticipated something like this happening. I didn't know when, but I had a feeling in my gut. I kept getting a feeling we would stay together until the kids got older and then something would happen. Maybe I have be paranoid about this for a long time.

I’m all for supporting your W. I do not agree with throwing your self worth down the drain to do it. Your claims of “I will not abandon you”, while she has 2 OM is…..honestly……you showing HER that you do not value YOURSELF. It is unattractive. I am not saying that you should yell and scream at her. I am saying that if you have nothing nice to say – say nothing. Look man, she has issues….well she has a therapist she can see, she has 2 OM that she can talk to about it. YOU cannot FIX HER.

I wish I would have been on this board longer before I told her these things. I think in the back of my mind I thought maybe this would stop her EA, but all it did was let her think I didn't care. The NMMNG book is really helping to explain this to me. I wish I would have know about this book years ago. I lived my life in fear and dependent on my W.

Remember the journal I asked you to pick up? I woud like you to start journalling every day, what you do with thd kids, what time you feed them, etc. The journal should be kept somewhere that no one can find it.

I will start tomorrow.

I would start going out at least ONCE every two weeks. I don’t care if it is a drive….just get out. Period. No freaking excuses.

This I can and will do.

I would keep your conversations with your W to the bare minimum. No happy chatter, nada. When asked why you are quite – your canned response should be…nothing I have a lot on my mind. Keep her guessing dude.

Ok. I can do this. It will be hard, but I can do this. I know this is a major part of DBing and it's one of the things I have failed the most at.

Now…please….give some more thought to WHO you want to be and let me know who that guy is.

I will.

Thanks

[Mach1]

1) Her Life Crisis is NOT your fault. Stop blaming yourself.

2) Her issues are NOT your fault. Stop blaming yourself.

3) You are hard on yourself, IMO, because that is what YOU are used to. It is what you have learned to deal with challenges in your life. Remember this…..YOU are ONLY a ViCTIM if YOU CHOOSE to be.

4) Honestly, based on your story…and based on what you have written about your W – you would been here NO matter what YOU did/didn’t do. The key……is what are YOU really going to do NOW – with the TIME you have been given.

1. I know it's not my fault. I have been having a hard time knowing I can't fix her problems though. I think I am a fixer. I am one who has attracted women with problems without realizing it. I think I read about this in the NMMNG book as well.
2. I know.
3. I understand where you are coming from. I believe what you are saying. I have always been hard on myself, that is what I do.
4. I have been thinking about this and I think you are right. I have actually thought this would come at some point. For a while now (before this sitch even started) I have almost anticipated something like this happening. I didn't know when, but I had a feeling in my gut. I kept getting a feeling we would stay together until the kids got older and then something would happen. Maybe I have be paranoid about this for a long time.

1. no you don't

2. no you don't

3. no you don't

4. no, not really...


Why are those my answers to you ???

Because if you DID know, and DID understand, then you wouldn't be trying to appease him with the answers...

You loosely understand based on old habits and understandings...

Basically, you "thought" that you knew...

Thinking....got you here.

And while HER crisis isn't your fault...

The events leading to why she is reluctant to work through this WITH you....are

You simply blaming "her crisis" , lets you off of the hook for any kind of self reflection, or accepting any of the blame...

That....simply isn't true...

You are the one here, you are the one seeking change....

What is stopping you, except you ??

Dig deeper to answer Eric's questions....

[Mach1]

First, that first part of the above is so freaking whishy washy. Dude, it very simple – stop SNOOPING. Stop making excuses for snooping. As for letting her go, you will be unable to UNTIL you become the man you want to be. You will be unable to until you face the fears you have. The status quo is easy. Change is hard. Either way – Eagle all of this is YOUR CHOICE. Stop with the excuses already.

I have been beaten over the head with this by many on here. I need to stop. It is doing me no good and I know that.

One more for good luck....???

No....you don't know...or you wouldn't still be doing it...

[Brubeck]

ericmsant2 - great response, damn thorough. I needed to hear a lot of that too. You took the time to break it down. Much care there. Thank you.

Eagle - Again, some of your own feelings mirror my own. I am still doing some of the same things... being too hard on myself, using the kids as an excuse to not do anything (I cringed at ericmsant's response because it's true), and just blaming myself overall for the whole scenario.

I am just stepping out of the habit blaming myself for my W's MLC. I figured if I take responsibility for her condition, I can do something to fix it and make sense of the craziness. Wait a minute, I can't make sense - because half of what she says are things I know are untrue, half of what she does is negligent towards her family and herself.

To echo some of ericmsant's sentiment... I would suggest some GALing / activity that will give you a sense of taking control of your life. Like me, you may feel that everything is spinning wild, or at least, out of your hands.

It's good to step outside the box and do something new for the first time, but I've found for me I feel great when I accomplish projects for myself. I don't mean raking the leaves. Golfing is great for taking you away from the daily grind, keep doing that. Do you have something unfinished that's hanging out there in the basement / attic / garage? I'm finding completing those projects build me up because while I need to have time off, I also need to feel like I did something.

With being quiet around W, maybe you get lonely or just want to chat for the sake of it. Start calling or texting friends when she's home (if your boys aren't keeping you too occupied). Get conversations going with other people. Others may 2 x 4 me for saying this, but I think those other people can include women if you're so inclined. I don't advertise to W when I am on the phone with a woman, but I have no problem with it. I'm not flirting, these women are just my friends. You know, as well as I do, the comfort of receiving feminine energy even when it's just in a totally platonic capacity.

I am already journaling, it's been therapeutic to get it all out. Rant, guess, theorize, etc. I suggest creating documents under Google drive. Remember to use private browsing!

I'm keeping up with your sitch and other sitches and reading archived stuff and I'm getting the feeling that most of us go down this path kicking & screaming. I guess none of this is supposed to be easy, it still isn't for me. Soldier on...

[Drew]

I will start tomorrow.

No, start today.

Better yet, start RIGHT NOW!!!

Or else we'll be back here tomorrow reading excuses on why you'll do it tomorrow ..........

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

I hope you had a great vacation.

I did – thank you.

I wanted to expand on Mach’s post to you…

As he pointed out you respond that “you know” often….yet in the context of how you respond your “I knows” are really just an excuses you keep giving yourself to a. not dig deep b. mind read and c. justify your actions and behaviors. Here let me show you YOUR words…..

On 8/29 – I'm not sure either way has been effective and I know I haven't tried either for very long.

On 8/30 regarding spying you “knew”…..
AndrewP, thanks for the advice. Toying with her was something I had never done until today and honestly it felt good but I know I can't keep doing it.

Later on 8/30 regarding snooping…. I know snooping wasn't doing me any good but it was almost like a drug for me.

As for her leaving on 8/30… you “knew” that she wouldn’t- I’ll bet that if she did you would flip out. Yet you consistently say “I know”.

I still think if she would leave it would be better for our sitch, but I know that is not going to happen.

On 8/31…..
I know it wasn't sexual, but even if she would have invited me into the shower there is no way I was going in there.

you “knew” again. You were mind reading.

on 8/31….I think she has depression and I know she has low self esteem.

Here you are mind reading – you have no clue what she might feel RIGHT now.

8/31….I know she fears paying me alimony/child support

Mind reading again….

Oh….and J3B tried to point that out by responding “I think you don’t know what she thinks”

On 8/31 ….. I never should have told my mom. I know better, but I was looking for someone to talk too after I found out what was going on and in a moment of weakness I called her.

Here your I know is used to justify YOUR poor choice. Notice the BUT….

On 9/1 you responded to J3B

I understand where you are coming from. I know it was not smart.

These are both….avoiding digging deep and justification of YOUR choices

On 9/1 … I know she is not going to stop the A

Mind reading again…

On 9/1….I know I am not going to push her and I am going to keep my distance.
Another dual combo “I know”….a. not wanting to dig deep and c. justification for your behavior

9/1 continues……..
I know her relationship with the OM will still be going and I guess the only thing that's really changed is that she knows I know that.

Umm….let’s see if you can figure this one out…. I would say it is (fill in the blanks) M_ ND R _ _DING.

BTW….I’m still on one of your first threads…I have 2 more to go.

Later during the day on 9/1….

I know she isn't going to stop anytime soon.
as far as I know she has only seen him one time since the EA started and he does live 3 hours away
mind reading and fortune telling.

On 9/2…
I know she is scared and I won't be shocked if she stops her EA for a little while, but then starts back up. – MINDREADING


On 9/5
I would actually be believing that there was really hope for us right now, but I know that is a long way off.

^^^ Mindreading….

On 9/6….

“I know she is torn on what to do now.” – More mind reading…

“I actually think they keep me from getting depressed because I know I have to be for them.” – In this example…you are using it as an excuse.


ON 9/7

I know I need to work on myself, but it does make it hard when the W is at home in the evening

Hmmmm…an “I know and BUT” all in the same quote.


On 9/7….
after reading other threads on the board I know a lot have it worse than me

More mind reading. Hell CT118 even pointed it out when he said “I am not sure if others have it worse or better”

Eagle – The mind reading is KILLING YOU.

Alas I have more….


9/8….
“I know they work together on projects, but some of the times of there texts leave me a bit skeptical that this is strictly work related

“I know I shouldn't be snooping but when I saw his name pop up on that text last night I couldn't help myself” ….I think you’ve said this about snooping..ummm…5 times so far and FTR, I’m still only on 9/8. Oh…and notice the “BUT”…there was the excuse you gave yourself.


Here are just a few more….

9/8 - “This should not change my path. I know that, it's just so frustrating to see her do this”

9/8 - “I know if I say something and I'm wrong, it will be bad for whatever relationship we have. I also know just telling her would admit that I can't stop snooping. She already knows I snooped before and I know she is paranoid because she thought I put a tracking device in her car last week.”

9/8 – “If this 2nd OM is true then I know she has "affaired down"”

9/9 – “I know I have to take care of myself, but its just not right that this insane woman is going to effect what happens to the rest of my life.” (another “I know and BUT”)

Whew…that took a while. Well now I am on the “confused on what to do 2” thread….let’s see what we find.

9/9 – I know it might not make a difference but it is nice to know that the work I have been putting in is at least noticed.

9/10 ” I need to do more, but I have been” This is not an “I know”…you did though use “BUT” again as an excuse.

9/12 – I know, I know – This was in response to Drew who said your W was cake eating.


9/12 – “I know I have gotten paranoid about every guy she is talking too now.”

9/12 – “I know she really doesn't want anything to do with me and I know that as long as these other men are giving her the attention then she will never be in a position to try our marriage again

9/13 – “I didn't respond in anger, but I know it was a stupid thing to say.”


Another example that highlights just how much you keep mind reading.

9/14 -

Like Jack, I'm trying not to mind read here, but part of me thinks she is testing

Back to the “I Knows”…

9/14 – I know it might not mean much, but it was nice to get that acknowledgment – Mind reading and excuse combo

9/14 – I know this M will not be fixed overnight and that it would be a long road

9/15 – I know I am consumed by fear

Eagle….I can continue to go through all of your posts. I hope that you understand what we are trying to say to you.

Now is the time to stop mind reading, to stop giving yourself excuses, to stop with the “I know” and “but” – It is time to stop being afraid of not just YOUR wife….


But of….


YOURSELF.

[Drew]

Now is the time

Now.

NOW.

NOW!!!!!

Stop with the excuses.

[CT1118]

Eagle, Eric just curled some serious weight for you dude. I am thinking golf is not for you right now. You should try something different. Something new and something that builds mind in connection with body. What do you think about wieght lifting, martial arts, or a rock gym. It's time you kicked your own arse on different levels.

And man, journal, journal, journal. I want to offer to you, the journal can be what you want it to. Yes, thoughts, yes stories, but it may be quotes you like, pictures you took, ideas you wish to engage, or drawings. Anything. I have a few entire pages of just quotes from things I read here which I found helpful in my journal. I have lists of shirts, shoes, and pants I want to buy but cannot afford all at once. I have notes from YouTube videos on how to communicate effectively - etc. write it, go back and read it. Write who you were, who you are, who you want to be.

The shortest entry I have is one word, in the middle of a page all alone. It says:

"Self"

[Eagle11]

Eric, Mach1 and Drew. I see what you guys are doing. I have been making excuses for this the whole time.

Eric, please don't go through any more of my past threads. I get the idea. I don't think I want to relive all the stuff I was thinking about then. It's embarrassing reading the quotes you posted from me.

I also want you all to know that I wrote my first journal entry today and I will continue to write everyday.

[Eagle11]

Brubeck,

Thanks for the advice. I need to do some GALing, especially without the kids. I am going to finally do that hike I have been talking about for I think 3 weeks now. The weather is supposed to be great this weekend (low 80's instead of mid 90's) so I am going to take advantage of it.

I also agree with you about getting conversations with other people going. I have been lonely these last few months and it might be a good time to reach out to some old friends. Also, my neighbor invited me over to watch football this weekend. I don't really know him that well, but he seems like a cool guy. I don't know, maybe I can find a new friend.

Have a great weekend

[Eagle11]

CT,it's always great to hear from you.

Eagle, Eric just curled some serious weight for you dude. I am thinking golf is not for you right now. You should try something different. Something new and something that builds mind in connection with body. What do you think about wieght lifting, martial arts, or a rock gym. It's time you kicked your own arse on different levels.

Don't know much about martial arts or rock gym (might have to look into the rock gym at some point), but I have gotten to the gym a couple of times this week and I will be going tomorrow morning. Maybe I will add a little more weight to the bar to try to let out some aggression.

I have decided I do need to golf soon though. Its been my favorite hobby for probably the last 20-25 years and I haven't been doing it. I haven't played in 2 months and the only time I have ever gone this long is during the winter when I lived in the north. It's part of who I am and it lets me get away from the stress of everyday life. I really need to go play soon.

Also,

Thanks for the advice on the journal. I was assuming I just write my thoughts for the day, but your description has me intrigued. I guess I was looking at it as more of a daily diary, but with what you describe it can be much more. Thanks

[CT1118]

Don't know much about martial arts or rock gym (might have to look into the rock gym at some point), but I have gotten to the gym a couple of times this week and I will be going tomorrow morning. Maybe I will add a little more weight to the bar to try to let out some aggression.

Golf is cool man. I have built course's and turned down green "free's" in places golfer's would chop a pinky off to play at - Hilton Head, Kiawah, King's Mill, Seaford...PGA/LPGA - if you have golf'ed in Virginia, Georgia, or South Carolina, on the coast... HUGE chance you have golf'ed around trees I worked on or planted. Enjoy.
Golf is great. If you abandoned and still enjoy - do it! It is important you also do something new - anything new.

Thanks for the advice on the journal. I was assuming I just write my thoughts for the day, but your description has me intrigued. I guess I was looking at it as more of a daily diary, but with what you describe it can be much more. Thanks

I thought as much. Tonight my journal entry was just a quote from Alice Walker:

“I think it pisses God off if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it.”

And to enforce the example, a creative thought of my own (it accompanied a picture of my s5 on the beach):

"all the stars which have ever failed became sand upon my shore".

Think about that statement, the truth of how the solar system operates and you, and your kids..., get back with me Mr. Armstrong.

[Eagle11]

Golf is cool man. I have built course's and turned down green "free's" in places golfer's would chop a pinky off to play at - Hilton Head, Kiawah, King's Mill, Seaford...PGA/LPGA - if you have golf'ed in Virginia, Georgia, or South Carolina, on the coast... HUGE chance you have golf'ed around trees I worked on or planted.

CT, I have golfed many times in Hilton Head and the surrounding area. We've taken many family vacations there over the years. I've been to Kingsmill once and I live and golf in Georgia now so I'm sure I've seen your trees. I have been wanting to go to Kiawah and had to pass up a chance a few years back, maybe someday.

[CT1118]

I put many trees into the earth in Georgia as well - mostly along the Savannah River, the City of Savannah, Tybee Island, and all of those other places in that area. Best meal I ever had in my life was along the Savannah River in the middle of nowhere. A fat old black woman cooked it for me - told me she felt like a "yankee' because she moved from Georgia to South Carolina (literally only across the Savannah River). She looked like an angel and her food was certainly heaven. Collards, fried chicken & catfish,cornbread, and a few other recipes God dictated should enter my pie hole that day.

But I digress, where are you at with you Eagle11? How is the journal. How are you physically making yourself sweat - sweat hard induced, not just b/c GA is humid as H3ll. I was thinking of you - couldn't put my finger on it...got it now though. It was a quote from one of my favorite books - Catch 22 by J. Heller. Not really DB related in terms of story, but a quote I had to jar out of my head with hammer and chisel. I went back and found it. An exchange between the main character Capt. J. Yossarian and his Major:

Yossarian - "From now on I'm thinking only of me"
Major - "But Yossarian, suppose everyone thought that way."
Yossarian "Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?"

Great movie version exists of the book, but anyway - are you thinking only of you yet? You'd be a "damned fool" to do anything else. (remember - unhealthy you, bad for kids. healthy you, great for kids - don't tell me kids come first, they don't, you do. put your o2 mask on before helping the kids. or, if you prefer the American Red Cross first responder line "never create a second victim").

Houston out.

[Eagle11]

I put many trees into the earth in Georgia as well - mostly along the Savannah River, the City of Savannah, Tybee Island, and all of those other places in that area. Best meal I ever had in my life was along the Savannah River in the middle of nowhere. A fat old black woman cooked it for me - told me she felt like a "yankee' because she moved from Georgia to South Carolina (literally only across the Savannah River). She looked like an angel and her food was certainly heaven. Collards, fried chicken & catfish,cornbread, and a few other recipes God dictated should enter my pie hole that day.

I've been to Savannah a few times over the years, it's a cool little city.

But I digress, where are you at with you Eagle11? How is the journal. How are you physically making yourself sweat - sweat hard induced, not just b/c GA is humid as H3ll. I was thinking of you - couldn't put my finger on it...got it now though. It was a quote from one of my favorite books - Catch 22 by J. Heller. Not really DB related in terms of story, but a quote I had to jar out of my head with hammer and chisel. I went back and found it. An exchange between the main character Capt. J. Yossarian and his Major:

Yossarian - "From now on I'm thinking only of me"
Major - "But Yossarian, suppose everyone thought that way."
Yossarian "Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?"

I like the quote. I haven't read the book, but maybe I need to check it out. I have been doing the daily journal. I have been using it to chronicle my day and thoughts for that day or time. It is interesting to put my thoughts down on paper. I actually kept a journal during the break up of my first marriage years ago. I went back a few years later and read the journal and is was depressing to see the state I was in back then. I'm hoping with the help of this community that this journal will be more positive and be about my journey to a new and better life.

I did do some stuff for me this weekend. I worked out and I practiced golf. I also spent some time playing guitar, so those were all positives. With the kids I took them bike riding on Sunday and they had a lot of fun doing that. I also cooked some chicken on the grill on Sunday, which is something I haven't done in a while. Actually I don't think I've used the grill in a couple of month.

Thanks for checking in.

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

I've been to Savannah a few times over the years, it's a cool little city.

Ditto – I love the “River walk” area. Did you know that the 5th rated best ice cream is in Savannah.

I did do some stuff for me this weekend. I worked out and I practiced golf. I also spent some time playing guitar, so those were all positives. With the kids I took them bike riding on Sunday and they had a lot of fun doing that. I also cooked some chicken on the grill on Sunday, which is something I haven't done in a while. Actually I don't think I've used the grill in a couple of month.

I am glad to see this ^^^^

How is your reading going?

Do you see why I recommended the book?

[Eagle11]

Eagle

Ditto – I love the “River walk” area. Did you know that the 5th rated best ice cream is in Savannah.

Yes the "river walk" area is nice. I really love the city. I didn't know that about the ice cream. I will have to get some the next time I go.

How is your reading going?

Do you see why I recommended the book?

I finished NMMNG and at first I didn't get it. The first couple of chapters I was thinking this isn't me, but as I got into the book I soon realized that this could almost be an autobiography with some of what is described. I would read a chapter and be shaking my head at how similar what was being described was to what I had been doing. I mentioned the book to my therapist last week and she hadn't heard of it but when I started discussing the content of the book she agreed that it describes me. I have been working on my confidence and also not being weak and scared. I am trying to detach from my W, but I have interacted with her over the weekend and I made sure I came off as strong and sure of myself. We actually had a minor disagreement (it was nothing really) and I didn't back down like I would in the past.

[CaliGuy]

I finished NMMNG and at first I didn't get it. The first couple of chapters I was thinking this isn't me, but as I got into the book I soon realized that this could almost be an autobiography with some of what is described. I would read a chapter and be shaking my head at how similar what was being described was to what I had been doing. I mentioned the book to my therapist last week and she hadn't heard of it but when I started discussing the content of the book she agreed that it describes me. I have been working on my confidence and also not being weak and scared. I am trying to detach from my W, but I have interacted with her over the weekend and I made sure I came off as strong and sure of myself. We actually had a minor disagreement (it was nothing really) and I didn't back down like I would in the past.

The confidence thing .... I never had issue with it till BD then it was a spiral effect and I was amazed how far I dropped off.
One thing I learned in IC to regain this was along with GAL but more about getting out of your comfort zone, and doing this consistently. For me it was accepting invites (I usually would make an excuse and be busy) I also took a motorcycle riding course (Ended up buying a Harley and still ride to this day) I started seeing them as little battles ... striking up a conversation with a stranger just again ... something I was not comfortable with but after I walked away realizing it was not really that bad.

I too read NMMNG ... there is another one Hold onto your NUTS which paired well

[Eagle11]

[quote=Eagle11]

The confidence thing .... I never had issue with it till BD then it was a spiral effect and I was amazed how far I dropped off.
One thing I learned in IC to regain this was along with GAL but more about getting out of your comfort zone, and doing this consistently. For me it was accepting invites (I usually would make an excuse and be busy) I also took a motorcycle riding course (Ended up buying a Harley and still ride to this day) I started seeing them as little battles ... striking up a conversation with a stranger just again ... something I was not comfortable with but after I walked away realizing it was not really that bad.

I too read NMMNG ... there is another one Hold onto your NUTS which paired well

I have been told to get out of my comfort zone as well. I have been doing little things that I wouldn't do in the past like going to the parent teacher conference for my S6 (my w would always do this and I would stay home with our S2). I have also tried to talk to people more. I am an introvert by nature and really don't like to talk to strangers but I have held a couple of conversations with strangers the last couple of weeks. These are little things but I feel they are big steps for me at this time.

I am going to have to look into the book you recommended. The title has me intrigued and I feel I got a lot out of NMMNG and I would like to continue the education.

Thanks

[Drew]

Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

I have been working on my confidence and also not being weak and scared.

1) How has it been going and
2) Can you give me more detail on WHAT you are doing or scenarios on where you are applying what you learned?

We actually had a minor disagreement (it was nothing really) and I didn't back down like I would in the past.

GOOD! What was the disagreement if I may?

I am glad you got something from the NMMNG book. Caliguy beat me to it in suggesting Hold on to your NUTS. It does pair well.

These are little things but I feel they are big steps for me at this time.

As you point out……a ton of little steps equal big steps.

How are the kiddos?

[Eagle11]

Eric,

1) How has it been going and
2) Can you give me more detail on WHAT you are doing or scenarios on where you are applying what you learned?

1) I feel it is going much better. I honestly didn't realize how bad my confidence and fear was before. I mean I knew I was lacking in both but after reading the book, I realized I was basically letting the fear and lack of confidence control me.
2) Well the first thing I have done is not be scared to do things on my own. I have done things like go to the golf course, taken a couple of walks and in general made sure I have not spent as much time around my W. We still see each other but I have been making an effort to show her that I have a life without her. The couple of walks I have taken were not in the neighborhood, but at a park. I didn't tell her where I was going or when I was going to be home. The other night she came home and was sitting on the couch watching tv and I get the feeling she expected me to come sit with her, but I told her I had to go out. Trying not to mind read but she seemed a little disappointed. I have also been doing things that historically my W would do like switching our Internet providers and I went to my sons parent teacher conference instead of her. Usually she would do this stuff but I decided I was going to do. It might seem small, but it is out of character for the old me.

GOOD! What was the disagreement if I may?

The disagreement was over her going out of town. She went back to Ohio to visit her family today and is going to be gone until Monday. She told me a couple of weeks ago that she was going to be back Sunday morning. It was minor but by her taking the extra day I lost my chance to do something for myself this weekend because I will have the kids all weekend. She said she told me she would be back Monday but I know she told me Sunday. It didn't get heated or anything like that, but I did stand my ground and told her I didn't appreciate her taking the trip that took up the entire weekend without asking me first. She actually apologized to me (In the past I would be the one apologizing), so that was different.

How are the kiddos?

Kids are doing great. My S6 anxiety seems to be doing much better. I talked to his teacher about seeing the counselor at school again and he hasn't cried at school this week. Previously, he had been crying 2 or 3 days a week when I went to drop him off and his teacher said he broke down in class one day last week and started crying.

[Eagle11]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I went to my IC on Tuesday and discussed my W's drinking. She has basically been drinking about 1 to 1 1/2 bottles of wine a night. To go along with the drinking my W also takes her daily dose of Paxil and Xanax. On Monday night I took my S6 to cub scouts while she stayed home with our S2. We were gone about 2 hours and when we got back I saw that she had drank over a bottle of wine while we were gone. I didn't say anything to her that night but expressed to my IC that I didn't feel comfortable with her being at home for long stretches with the kids if she continues to drink like this. My IC and I talked about what to do and ran through a couple of scenarios. My W was going back to visit family this weekend and we thought about me contacting her mom, but I decided against that because I don't know how that would come across. Basically I didn't know if her mom would believe me because I don't know what her mom thinks of me right now. I finally decided that I would just talk to my W the next time I saw her drinking.

When I got home from the IC on Tuesday evening I was in the dining room eating dinner with the kids when my W came in and asked how my therapy went. I told her it was good and then she asked if I could asked my IC if she could recommend a therapist for her. I was shocked because my W has told me she doesn't need a therapist anymore and she can take care of herself. Anyway, I told my W I would email my IC that night. The next my IC got back with me and gave 3 recommendations which I forwarded onto my W. Then Wednesday night my W told me she had contacted one of the therapists, which shocked me again. She might not stick with it but I hope this therapy works out. I'm not really concerned about the marriage right now as much as her relationship with our kids.

Finally, on Wednesday she opened a bottle of wine started into her drinking. That is when I decided I had to talk to her. I think I did a good job of explaining the drinking to her. I told her I was concerned about her, especially mixing this drinking with drugs. I told her that if she didn't stop the drinking I would not be taking our S6 camping in 3 weeks because I couldn't trust her with our S2 to be home with him for 2 nights by themselves. I just can't take the chance if she is drinking like this along with her drugs that they will be safe if I'm not home. I worry about something could happen to my son and she will be too drunk to help him or something could happen to her and he obviously wouldn't be able to do anything. I told her I am no longer buying any alcohol for her and she needs to stop. She actually agreed with me and told me she knows she has a problem. We will see in the next couple of weeks if she is taking this seriously or not.

[Mach1]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I went to my IC on Tuesday and discussed my W's drinking.

Why the f%#& are you spending YOUR IC time, talking about your wife...???

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

You’ve mentioned that she drinks 1 to 1 and half bottle of wine a night. Is she really drunk after that? I am not suggesting that a bottle and a half are acceptable.

I told her that if she didn't stop the drinking I would not be taking our S6 camping in 3 weeks because I couldn't trust her with our S2 to be home with him for 2 nights by themselves.

Mabye you should consider finding a baby sitter for S2. Think about it…. “okay W if you do not stop drinking – I will refuse to NOT have fun with my son to punish you”. What is the consequence for her?

Aside from the above, I would be a bit careful here…. Do you really believe that she will be unable to take care of s2 OR is that a passive aggressive way to show HER that you have changed?

My W was going back to visit family this weekend and we thought about me contacting her mom, but I decided against that because I don't know how that would come across.

First she is 36 years old – YOU running to tell her MOM is probably not going to give you the desired results that you seek. As for you not buying anymore wine – IMHO, you do not need to “announce it” – Just stop buying it. Period.

Think about it…. “I am not going to purchase your wine anymore” sounds a bit like “You have not behaved so I am going to punish you”.

Eagle – you are not her father – you are her partner.

I told her that if she didn't stop the drinking I would not be taking our S6 camping in 3 weeks because I couldn't trust her with our S2 to be home with him for 2 nights by themselves

This ^^^^ is a form of a boundary or ultimatum. YOU have now set one. YOU’ll need to stick to it. So…..if she continues to drink….you have now made the commitment that you are not taking your son camping. Not the type of boundary I would have set – at least not now.


The fact that she is willing to speak to a therapist maybe a good thing. I would not get your hopes up high, which leads me to a question.

Have you read up on EXPECTATIONS?

You mentioned drinking and “drugs”…what kinds of drugs?

I just can't take the chance if she is drinking like this along with her drugs that they will be safe if I'm not home.

Regarding this ^^^^^^

I can totally understand how you feel. You will NOT always be able to be home. Regardless of the outcome of your sitch – she is their mother and therefore has every right to spend time with the kids WITHOUT you. Unless she is a drug pushing mother that beats her kids – she WILL be able to do what she feel she wants to with them. If she is a stumbling drunk…..I would have a slightly different view.

How is the journaling going?

[Eagle11]

Why the f%#& are you spending YOUR IC time, talking about your wife...???

I was with my IC for about 1 1/2 hours. I spent 20 -30 minutes on my W's alcohol/drug abuse. I had to figure out how to approach her about this because it could affect my kids. My IC also helped me understand what the alcohol is doing to her and how it is effecting her when she is mixing it with the Xanax. I honestly didn't realize what type of drug Xanax is and what it could do when paired with alcohol.

[Eagle11]

Eric,

You’ve mentioned that she drinks 1 to 1 and half bottle of wine a night. Is she really drunk after that? I am not suggesting that a bottle and a half are acceptable.

It's more the effect of drinking the alcohol and taking the Xanax that has me worried. I didn't realize what kind of drug Xanax is and what it can do to you if paired with alcohol. My IC explained they are both central nervous system drugs and they both work the same way. I guess to make it simple my IC told me that if she drinks 1 bottle of wine but also takes a Xanax she has basically doubled her alcohol intake. So instead of 1 bottle of wine she has taken the equivalent of 2 bottles of wine. She is also prone to blackouts where she doesn't remember anything from the night when she has been drinking. Just in the last couple of months her and I have had serious discussions while she has been drinking and the next day she doesn't remember anything from the night before. This also might explain why she says she can't remember what happened some nights when she has been on work trips and had a lot to drink. I always assumed stuff happened and she was just keeping it from me, but she really might not remember.

She has taken the xanax for years. All I knew was that it helped her anxiety and she would take one when she thought she might have a panic attack coming on. I have noticed that she takes one every night before bed now possibly to help her sleep, but I don't know if she is taking any more throughout the day. Obviously, the more xanax she takes the more alcohol will effect her. If she went on a serious drinking binge mixed with the xanax, then I was told she could OD and end up in a coma or worse. She hasn't drank like that around the house (the most I can remember is her drinking 2 bottles of wine), but she did tell me when she was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago she had 3 glasses of wine at dinner and then went to a bar with a lady she works with where she had "many drinks". Then she doesn't really remember anything else. She also has told me she drank so much wine in Vegas (it was free and they kept bringing it to her) the night OM #1 kissed her back at the end of July that she doesn't really remember anything. She told me she remembers going to and ATM machine to try to get money out to gamble but she couldn't remember her pin #, which is the same numbers she has had since I've known her. She says she doesn't remember how she got back to her room either (although I have always wondered if she had help).

From the above, I would be a bit careful here…. Do you really believe that she will be unable to take care of s2 OR is that a passive aggressive way to show HER that you have changed?

If she is sober I have no doubt she can take care of my S2. My IC and I talked about if something happened to my son and he got hurt. He is into climbing on things now and what happens if he falls and breaks his leg or something? Can I trust if she can get him help if she has been drinking? I don't think I can.

First she is 36 years old – YOU running to tell her MOM is probably not going to give you the desired results that you seek. As for you not buying anymore wine – IMHO, you do not need to “announce it” – Just stop buying it. Period.

Yeah, this was discussed and it was one of the reasons I chose not to tell her mom. It was also discussed that I talk to her brother because he is a recovering alcoholic but I decided against that too. I also chose to tell her I was no longer going to buy her alcohol because I feel I was enabling her drinking and I would not be a part of that anymore.

This ^^^^ is a form of a boundary or ultimatum. YOU have now set one. YOU’ll need to stick to it. So…..if she continues to drink….you have now made the commitment that you are not taking your son camping. Not the type of boundary I would have set – at least not now.

I am fine with what I told her. I will not put up with her possibly putting our kids lives in danger. I can live with the consequences and if she doesn't stop then we won't be going camping. My son will disappointed, but he will get over it. If she wants to drink on her own then she can do that but not when she is supposed to be watching the kids.

The fact that she is willing to speak to a therapist maybe a good thing. I would not get your hopes up high, which leads me to a question.

Have you read up on EXPECTATIONS?

No, but I will. I'm not looking for a miracle at this point, but I did see it as some type of positive that she wants to seek help. I know it might not last. She has told me that she has seen 7 therapists in the past and they obviously have not helped, but maybe it will this time. She did tell me a couple of nights before asking for my help with the therapist that nobody could help her and that she was broken, so I was surprised that she came to me a couple of days later asking for help.

I can totally understand how you feel. You will NOT always be able to be home. Regardless of the outcome of your sitch – she is their mother and therefore has every right to spend time with the kids WITHOUT you. Unless she is a drug pushing mother that beats her kids – she WILL be able to do what she feel she wants to with them. If she is a stumbling drunk…..I would have a slightly different view.

I want her to spend time with the kids. I actually wish she would spend more time with them because when she is at home in the evenings she usually spends it either watching tv, doing work or she is on her phone. With each of those activities there is usually alcohol involved.

If she wants to drink her life away then that is her decision but I become involved if it starts to effect the kids.

How is the journaling going?

I've been keeping up with it everyday. It has been good to write down my thoughts for the day. To actually get pen to paper and I guess see what I am thinking has been good.

Thanks

[ericmsant2]

Thank you for responding Eagle.

Just popping in to say Hi. How was your weekend?

[Eagle11]

Thank you for responding Eagle.

Just popping in to say Hi. How was your weekend?

The weekend was fine and uneventful. My W was out of town Friday and Saturday visiting her family but then surprised us by showing up Sunday morning. She was supposed to be back on Monday but there was some family drama involving her younger brother and she switched flights to come home a day early. I spent Saturday with the kids. I had to take them to get flu shots and then we went to the park and out to eat. On Sunday I took the kids to a different park where we found some trails to explore the forest. The kids seemed to enjoy it and I did too. Since my W was out of town and I watched the kids I didn't get to go to the gym but I've made it the last 2 mornings. I also started a new book last weekend. This one isn't a self help type book but a book I'm reading for fun.

I hope your weekend was good and thanks for checking in on me.

[2Lady]

I am seeing a pattern in these forums. Many of the MLC spouses seem to have alcohol and/or Xanax problems. I have to give you credit for recognizing these as factors in your problem because most people seem to describe them as if, for example, it is totally normally to drink so much that one passes out.

[ericmsant2]

I didn't get to go to the gym but I've made it the last 2 mornings.

Good for YOU dude!

[Eagle11]

2Lady,

I am seeing a pattern in these forums. Many of the MLC spouses seem to have alcohol and/or Xanax problems. I have to give you credit for recognizing these as factors in your problem because most people seem to describe them as if, for example, it is totally normally to drink so much that one passes out.

It did take me some time to realize getting drunk was my W's new thing for handling what was going on. I'm not sure she understood the severity of mixing the alcohol and xanax until I told her what my therapist told me. She has only been home for a couple of nights since we talked about it but she hasn't had any alcohol. I also saw that when she filled out forms to see her new therapist yesterday she listed alcohol as her way of coping. It's up to her to stop but at least she is aware of her problem and maybe with the help of her therapist she can figure out how.

[Mach1]

Why the f%#& are you spending YOUR IC time, talking about your wife...???

I was with my IC for about 1 1/2 hours. I spent 20 -30 minutes on my W's alcohol/drug abuse. I had to figure out how to approach her about this because it could affect my kids. My IC also helped me understand what the alcohol is doing to her and how it is effecting her when she is mixing it with the Xanax. I honestly didn't realize what type of drug Xanax is and what it could do when paired with alcohol.

Eagle....I get why...

I was looking for the deeper why, the one that involves you not trying to fix her with YOUR IC time...

The one where you LEAD your family through this without sacrificing yourself to do it....

What else did you work through ???

[Eagle11]

Eagle....I get why...

I was looking for the deeper why, the one that involves you not trying to fix her with YOUR IC time...

The one where you LEAD your family through this without sacrificing yourself to do it....

What else did you work through ???

We spent most of the time working on my ideas of me being selfish. We spent time on getting me to do things for myself and talked about how I need to take time for myself. We also talked about my relationships with my family which are strained right now.

I looked at this as an opportunity to learn about addiction or just the effects of the Xanax and alcohol. I really don't know much about alcohol abuse or addiction and I could have read up about it on the internet, but I thought talking to someone who actually knows what they are talking about when it comes to these addictions because she deals with it with patients everyday would be a opportunity for me. My IC explained the dangers of mixing the Xanax and alcohol I feel better than I could have gotten by reading something online or out of a book. She also gave me ideas about how to approach my W with these concerns which I feel worked. My W and my conversation about the drinking went way better than I could have imagined and I have my IC to thank for that because I didn't know how to approach my W with my concerns before talking to my IC.

[srt]

Hi Eagle, I'm glad you managed to be assertive about her drinking. Hopefully she will realise the negative effect alcohol has on the body, especially to those in stressful situations. I know I now personally avoid drinking at home, and only rarely (once a week at most) will be out in company. The effects with other drugs involved must be frightening too.

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

We spent most of the time working on my ideas of me being selfish.

And what have you learned about YOU being selfish? Do you think you really are selfish OR do you feel that maybe you are assuming that you are because W said so?

[Eagle11]

Eric,

And what have you learned about YOU being selfish? Do you think you really are selfish OR do you feel that maybe you are assuming that you are because W said so?

I've learned that I am not really a selfish person and that I need to do things for myself. I've had selfish moments in my relationship but we've all done selfish things from time to time. My IC and I talked about how I have hobbies and things outside of my marriage and my W doesn't have those. So when I go out and do my hobbies she would often feel jealous and like I was neglecting her and that I was being selfish. It's not really me being selfish it's more my W being dependent on me for her happiness. If I take 4 or 5 hours on a Saturday for myself to do something I enjoy doing it's not being selfish. It's more my W's problem that she doesn't take that time for herself and I should not feel bad that I do take the time for myself.

[srt]

Hi eagle, your post about your W sound like the way my MIL behaved around my W. Could this have been one of the issues that pushed her into crisis? I don't know but it certainly isn't healthy either way. Sorry for thread hi-jack

[Ginger1]

Eric,

And what have you learned about YOU being selfish? Do you think you really are selfish OR do you feel that maybe you are assuming that you are because W said so?

I've learned that I am not really a selfish person and that I need to do things for myself. I've had selfish moments in my relationship but we've all done selfish things from time to time. My IC and I talked about how I have hobbies and things outside of my marriage and my W doesn't have those. So when I go out and do my hobbies she would often feel jealous and like I was neglecting her and that I was being selfish. It's not really me being selfish it's more my W being dependent on me for her happiness. If I take 4 or 5 hours on a Saturday for myself to do something I enjoy doing it's not being selfish. It's more my W's problem that she doesn't take that time for herself and I should not feel bad that I do take the time for myself.

I do not like when people call doing things for themselves "selfish" It's not in the context in which we understand the work. It's called self-care. Selfish is when we do what we want, when we want, even if it has a very negative consequence. That's my definition anyways.

You cannot serve from an empty vessel (quoted by someone famous and important many times, and I can't recall who)

My ex and I did almost everything together. Actually, until he was cheating on me, I can't even remember not going to bed at the same time (I did work night shift, so he did get to go to bed without me 3 nights a week). It wasn't me making him, or him making me, it just happened that we did almost everything together. I realize that was pretty unhealthy. because it was mostly me doing things he enjoyed, and with his friends. It's great to have outside interests and things personal to you as long as you balance it with time spent with your spouse. I swear, I learned so much from my bad M and just being alone about how to be healthy in an R. I've really taken the time to step back and observe other couples.

Anywho, I digress. I think you are correct in your assessment. Self care is important and healthy. Relying on your spouse for all happiness is NOT healthy.

[Eagle11]

SRT,

Hi eagle, your post about your W sound like the way my MIL behaved around my W. Could this have been one of the issues that pushed her into crisis? I don't know but it certainly isn't healthy either way. Sorry for thread hi-jack

I'm not really sure what brought my W into her crisis. She had a lot of childhood trauma and also experienced trauma while in college. She also has severe self esteem issues which to me might be her biggest problem. She started therapy this week and from what she told me it's pretty intense. I hope she sticks with it because she hasn't in the past.

[Eagle11]

Ginger,

I do not like when people call doing things for themselves "selfish" It's not in the context in which we understand the work. It's called self-care. Selfish is when we do what we want, when we want, even if it has a very negative consequence. That's my definition anyways.

I'm learning this. Still I have a hard time sometimes. My W asked me this morning if I had plans this weekend and I told her I was going golfing on Saturday and I still felt a little guilty even though I know I shouldn't. It's not going to stop me from going and I will have a good time but I guess there is still a little of the old me in there.

My ex and I did almost everything together. Actually, until he was cheating on me, I can't even remember not going to bed at the same time (I did work night shift, so he did get to go to bed without me 3 nights a week). It wasn't me making him, or him making me, it just happened that we did almost everything together. I realize that was pretty unhealthy. because it was mostly me doing things he enjoyed, and with his friends. It's great to have outside interests and things personal to you as long as you balance it with time spent with your spouse. I swear, I learned so much from my bad M and just being alone about how to be healthy in an R. I've really taken the time to step back and observe other couples.

I still did my things but my W basically gave up her things to spend time with me, which I never asked her too. My W had a group of friends that she hung out with when I met her but within a short time she dropped them to spend her time with me. She wanted to do everything with me and I think she became jealous when I would do things without her. There was a time when we lived in AZ for 4 years that it was better because she found a group of girl friends that she could do stuff with but then we moved away and she never really found any friends or hobbies for herself since then.

[ericmsant2]

Eagle

I've learned that I am not really a selfish person and that I need to do things for myself. I've had selfish moments in my relationship but we've all done selfish things from time to time.

Great answer. Ya know I belive that there is a thin line between taking care of oneself and being selfish. It is a struggle that I have to day. Where is the line.

I still felt a little guilty even though I know I shouldn't. It's not going to stop me from going and I will have a good time but I guess there is still a little of the old me in there.

It will take time for these feelings to eventually level out. Deep down you know if you need to feel guilty. Follow your gut. Learn to trust yourself.

[CT1118]

Eagle11,
Just caught up. s5 is safe in bed - 30ft' from me,sleeping. Decision made that even though my MPA is an amazing GAL, I will do no work towards it this weekend - despite the extra effort this will take come weekday when I don't have s5. My boy has more value. I read what I missed, if you had not time to read me, I had no time, I flipped it temporarily , back. I saw this...

Learn to trust yourself.

The end of a long read for me in terms of the page I left off at. Yet, terminus of it all. Succinct. A normative statement. Do you know Occam's Razor? Look it up. One of the the best things I knew before my journey, funny thing, old knowledge returns. The simplest answer is you. Your W is so complex. Your answers to all these great efforts from so many great people who came before us, are so complex.
Has it occurred at any time, that the answers you seek on her are too complicated, when the easier ones lie within? Simply, so simply, what is inside you to trust?

DB is an uneasy balance IMO. Your understanding is of you vs you understanding her. You want so desperately to find the answer to her that you are failing to trust the present and future you to know that that integrated knowledge of her exists inside of you!

Eagle11 - I will not be back in your sitch tomorrow or the next day. Will you be the same when I find you again? Trust yourself today that you can do one thing to make it different. Trust yourself tomorrow that you learned from today. It does not matter to your MLC what you do or what you say. But, it will matter to you. Trust you my friend, I trust you.