Her MLC: The Battle I Didn't Choose

[Brubeck]

First thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2689782

Took a break from posting to read more threads from MLC survivors and to post on other current MLC threads. Only a week of quiet goes by before I have to deal with Angry Pants.

Kids went back to school yesterday. W's mom is back from Guatemala today. Her new job starts on Monday. OM just ended contact with W - said he still considers her a friend but he wanted "to be alone" until further notice (last time that lasted only 2 days). Real life must be kicking in a bit, isn't it?

Ugh. I messed up. Monster came out to spew last night and I put up some resistance. I'm kicking myself over it. I should of just let her spew and validate, but she was accusing me of creating the very schedule problems that she's dealing with now. Working on myself meant giving up the need to be right, to react to her MLC craziness with humility & compassion. So many vets assure that beneath all the venom and rage is pain and fear.

I failed last night. I stood still against the bedroom dresser and maintained eye contact (she's pale and with shark eyes). I didn't get loud, interrupt or swear. When she started to raise her voice, I backed down - but I refuted her many times. She bounced from topic to topic on everything that's happening in her life right now and how it's ALL my fault because I haven't volunteered to help her. I don't even know what she's up to in the first place! What did I do? I tried to indicate this to her...with my dumb a$$!

Because of her going dark, I don't know her upcoming schedule and how inconvenient all this is for her. She's the one that wants to go back to work so she can "find her independence" and leave me. She wants all this change! In passive-aggressive language, she wants me to drop off S3 at daycare AND pick him up. I cannot commit to that because of my schedule - and she knows it. I also don't see why I should anyway. She wants to do the single mom thing - this is the work involved. She even tossed off the idea of spending $1600 in advance to pay for child care so she can keep her paycheck all to herself (as spending money). W also knows asking her mom for any help in babysitting is a tall order. Her mom has a thyroid condition akin to having ADHD. She's hyper, unreliable, and bossy. Results may vary.

To qualify for financial aid for child care assistance, she has to declare herself as legally separated. She mentioned this option last week, very cautiously, and I said that was okay. She mentioned it again today - but it was a serious tone of voice that said I'm taking the next step in leaving you. Whatever it takes file for separation in Illinois, I don't think she's learned what to do, so I don't know why she said it.

I took her spew as legitimate because I want to communicate about our kids and co-parent even while she's in MLC and gone dark. She's accusing me of just pitching in when it's convenient. I am doing so much freaking work here! I manage our finances, help out with housework when I have time and keep the pantry / linen closet / medicine cabinet stocked because she doesn't bother shopping for the house anymore. She is gone most evenings and mentally absent when she's here. I knew as I heard this b.s. that it was close to 100% projection on her part, especially when she said I was "behaving like a spoiled child" and "being a b!tch". I gave up and said "I don't want to talk about this anymore" because I know she just wanted to spew. I said I was taking the boys to the park for an hour.

Even with me in the other room putting shoes on the boys, she's still spewing something from the MBR while sitting in bed. I waited for her to stop. I came in the room and stood at the foot of the bed. I said very calmly "I'm sorry <w's name>. I'm sorry I failed you as a husband." Without missing a beat, she mumbled as quickly as she could "that's right, you did fail me as a husband." Keeping my calm, I said "Well someday, you won't have to worry about that anymore." She said nothing and lowered her head to return to her day care paperwork.

I left with the boys to the park. She appeared in the park a little later telling me she was going for her jog and being overly communicative that she wouldn't be long. I assured her with PMA to take her time and enjoy herself.

She called me at the office this morning to argue further. She wanted to know "what you're planning to do". She wasn't specific, so I said I'm continuing to focus on spending time with my family and my friends, my new responsibilities at work and my hobbies. I don't know if the vague happiness of PMA / GALing is meant to irritate a MLCer. When she made clear she was asking what I wanted to do about our M, I said I really couldn't do anything since she doesn't want to interact with me at all, and she readily agreed that she doesn't want any contact with me. She is the one contemplating a separation or a D. So, whatever happened with us in the future was up to her. This all seemed to piss her off even more.

She went on a MLC fog rant: she's "never felt more alive before than this year" (MLC started in January). The house has been like a cage and she's been in her own little prison. She said when I asked her to marry me (December '01) that she had already given up on me and was moving on, but she just went along because getting married was the "next logical step". She has wondered this entire time (13 years) whether or not she should have married me. I made her "feel ugly" like a "worthless little troll". I have NEVER paid her a compliment. I insult every accomplishment she shares with me. I have behaved more and more miserable towards her with each passing year. I never bothered paying attention to the kids until "this year".

It's funny how when she was busy with OM that she didn't give me the time of day. Now the OM goes silent, the kids are back in school, and she starts a job next week for the first time in 11 years. Is all that stress to an MLCer? I am suddenly her focus, and figuring out what to do with our M must be decided TODAY! Maybe a burst of passion from me is what she wants, I don't know. I'm not inclined to make romantic gestures to a cheating woman whose head is full of vague dreams about how wonderful life will be without me.

I told her that keeping my distance and staying away from her was an act of love because I was respecting her wishes even if they went against my own. I told her to follow her heart, that I'm doing fine, and I will be accepting of whatever decision she makes.

[Eagle11]

She went on a MLC fog rant: she's "never felt more alive before than this year" (MLC started in January). The house has been like a cage and she's been in her own little prison. She said when I asked her to marry me (December '01) that she had already given up on me and was moving on, but she just went along because getting married was the "next logical step". She has wondered this entire time (13 years) whether or not she should have married me. I made her "feel ugly" like a "worthless little troll". I have NEVER paid her a compliment. I insult every accomplishment she shares with me. I have behaved more and more miserable towards her with each passing year. I never bothered paying attention to the kids until "this year".

Brubeck I don't have much advice to share, but when I read this paragraph it hit home. My W has basically told me the same thing only not really in an angry tone. My W has rewritten history and remembers only the bad. I think it's only to make them feel better about all the hurt they are doing to their families.

Keep your head up, we are in this together. I'm pulling for you.

[HTM]

Hi Brubeck,

Like yourself, I've heard similar sentiments from my W since late-Jan this year but in differing tones; sometimes it's heated spew, at other times it's delivered cold & Machiavellian.

Not experienced enough to offer good advice at this stage, especially as I'm living in a difficult enough situation myself, but sounds to me like you handled it well considering the circumstances; certainly better than I would have.

Maybe a burst of passion from me is what she wants, I don't know.

Rather than passion, think it's more likely an aggressive reaction she's after to further fuel her delusional thinking/behaviour.

Stay strong; hoping calmer times are ahead for you.

[HaWho]

Well, as you can see when you sit still, she is lost. The more you listen the clearer it becomes. As as you detach more and more you will really be able to see her spinning. It's her, not you! And yep, there is that massive confusion that presents in MLC.

Just listen. Don't help her make any decisions. When my h went through his "planning" phase of MLC, he would sometimes ask my opinion and I learned to turn everything back to him. He would ask what I thought about x completely crazy plan and I would reply "what do you think?" Then he would look completely confuzzled.

My favorite thing he told me was that he wanted to go and be Indiana Jones!! (Umm, he did not seem to realize that is a fictional character!) So, I asked him "you want to be an actor?!?" Ohhh, did he get soooo mad!)

Keep positive. Stay focused on you and your little ones.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

My favorite thing he told me was that he wanted to go and be Indiana Jones!! (Umm, he did not seem to realize that is a fictional character!) So, I asked him "you want to be an actor?!?" Ohhh, did he get soooo mad!)

God that was funny. BAD you BAD DBing, but holy crap that is funny. Awesomely...wrong and hilarious.

Brubeck can I assume that this is her rewriting the past? Where everything bad in her life and up until now is your fault?

For the record, just because they want to talk...and by talk I mean vomit forth ugliness, Validation doesn't mean you have to stand there and take it.

I never bothered paying attention to the kids until "this year".

Yeah they seem to to hate that. Mine was sort of right about it, I was a dad in presence...that is one of those areas that I am glad for being an LBSer for, because I realized how much better I SHOULD be in the regard.

Not everything they say is wrong btw. Perception forms their reality. There might be some truth...some...not all and that is for you to determine with what they are yelling at you for.

I am reminded of my two boys, my oldest hit my youngest, who of course got upset. My oldest said I didn't even hit him that hard. I asked him if he would like me to hit him but not that hard by my view point. He of course declined and I said your truth is different than your brothers. You don't think its a big deal, and because of that you don't think he should think it is. But he does and that's not for you to tell him how to feel.

[Brubeck]

I will try to rattle this off as quick as possible.

W starts her new job tomorrow. Part time, first one in a decade. She spent Friday and Saturday night out late with friends, and spent all daytime hours on the phone. She ignored back-to-school paperwork for the boys and ignored S8's weekend homework and ignored the paperwork from her new job for new employees. She did everything last minute Sunday night. She's nervous, running around trying to keep herself busy. She even cooked tonight, which she hasn't done since I-don't-know-when. It was even a new dish. The boys and I weren't around for dinner anyway. She took out needle & thread to sew a bra she wanted to wear tomorrow, then she decided to sew 3 or 4 more bras while standing at the kitchen counter. She was a little cranky with everybody in the house. Running around doing loads of laundry.

I never send W texts unless it's a to-do list, but I will send her a congratulatory text tomorrow about her job. "Good luck. It's gonna be fun. You will kick ass." I'm sure she will not respond.

W told her friend she saw OM Saturday night. It was a girls night drinking at someone's house and he showed up because all the girls were also grade school alumni. W said OM was friendly but kept his distance from her. They haven't seen each other or spoken in a week. She thinks the PA is over. Whatever. She asked him to take her home, and he refused at first, out of fear that I would see him drop her off, so she told him told drop her off at the corner. On the ride home she noticed he wouldn't mention his W or his MR, which he's still working on (uh huh). I wonder what woke him up, if anything. Also, I shouldn't mind-read, but just what kind of guy wants to crash a get-together of women drinking wine and eating Chex Mix? Doesn't this guy know any dudes who drink beer and watch sports?

In seeking counsel about my W's MLC, one of the many people I reached out to for an open ear (before I found DB) was an old friend. She and I were immediate best friends our freshman year of high school, but she transferred to another school after that and I didn't see her for decades. We connected on Facebook a couple of years ago. Earlier this year, I reached out to her out of sheer desperation to discuss my MLC sitch - and she responded, she listened and empathized. She reminded me - just like the rest of you DBers - that it's her, not me. I review my first thread and realize I need 2x4's for this. Everybody keeps saying it's her, not me - but I keep asking for reminders.

My friend shared her own tough time marriage stories and we also talk about parenting stuff. She's been kind enough to send me a once-a-week text just asking "Hey, are you hanging in there?" Today I went to the office for a few hours to play catch up, crazy busy. As I'm preparing to leave I get a call from my friend. She's passing my neck of the woods coming back from her boyfriend's house and wants to know if we can do a last minute play date with our kids. I get so excited, I tell her I'm leaving the office right away. I bicycle home fast, get the boys ready, and meet at the nearest McDonald's that has a Playland.

I buy dinner for the boys and set up at the largest table. She and her two kids arrive just five minutes after me. She almost throws her tray to the nearest table and runs over to hug me, screaming. We embrace for probably 10 seconds with the eyes of every parent looking at us. She notices the other parents looking and exclaims "we were best friends our first year of high school, I haven't seen him in 25 years!"

She is the 42-year old incarnation of the her I remember from 1990 - Molly Ringwald in a tank top with long purple hair and arms covered in tattoos. We've been texting & talking for about 5 months, but we have not seen each other in person in 26 years. We last saw each other at 15, and here we are reuniting at 42 with our kids in tow, all because of the internet. Sometimes the world is an alright place!

We got the kiddos settled with food and talked. It was casual. We discussed parent stuff, work politics, music, the lighter side of things. She loved my boys - everybody falls in love with S4. He's a gentle giant, a total sweetheart, everybody wants to keep him! My boys and her two kids got along great.

Here's the thing - she knew my sitch and that dealing with my W's MLC was almost a daily ordeal, but she did not ask me about it once! I don't know if this was intentional or not on her part. For the hour or so where she and I were talking in that McDonald's playland, I completely forgot that I was a LBS. I didn't realize it at the time, I only figured this out when I got home. When you're enjoying peace, that absence of stress / worry / fear - whatever it is - sometimes you're just fulfilled kicking back and taking it easy. I have to make more time for that.

We all left together, we strapped our kids in our cars, hugged each other goodbye, and cemented plans for another playdate next weekend. Somewhere on the drive home, the realization of my sitch began to creep back in. The heaviness of it, the negativity of my own perspective, the fear, the stress, the worry, the anger...all of it returned. I don't want to feel this way all the time, and yet, I return to it. This is something I must overcome somehow.

Good God, I just realized I am so sick of cooking every day. I am dying to eat an adult meal at a restaurant. This is next on my list...

[MrBond]

Going through all of your posts, I notice all you ever do is talk about your W and her issues like you're her shrink. But you really glossed over this point from your first post..."I made mistakes in our M. I've handled all our finances (paid off W's school loan & credit card debt), dealing with the bills every month made me a cheapskate when it came to fun. I didn't splurge on weekend getaways or fancy dinners. She could buy whatever she wanted for herself, but I certainly didn't take her out much"

That's what contributed to the marriage crisis. How have you changed this?

And sorry if I missed it, but did you read DB or DR all the way or did you just read about MLC?

[mirage]

The part where you talk about almost forgetting about being an LBS and the situation.

How about a little more of that and less about her.

Mirage

[ciluzen]

ok. I'm going to be the bad guy (gal) here, and so with that warning, you can take what follows how ever you want to. But your post sent little chills up my back. I'll tell you why.

I don't know if you are familiar with my situation, but your post gave me a bit of insight into what could have transpired with my own MLCer, but not the way you might think. I am actually comparing him to you and your relationship with your long lost friend, although in my H's case, it was a woman he worked with.

You see, in his depression, which I noticed but couldn't help with, he decided I didn't like him. Because of this he decided to "make himself happy despite how I felt"...and then this is where the similarities between that post and mine start. He started to turn to this "friend" because she was familiar and "safe" (married with kids). He spoke to her at work, vented about us, she validated and assured him it was me not him that was the problem. She was fun and "just a friend". It progressed to them texting and talking OFTEN. He had found someone that took his mind off of our M issues, or to validate him when he did complain. So, WE never worked on them, but he will tell you to this day how hard he tried, because he talked to HER about them. He spent more quality time with her than me, in the end. And everyone who knew us watched as it happened and talked amongst themselves. Those people called it an affair. To this day, the two of them insist they are just friends, but there was a weekend spent alone out of state together,with a $250 dinner and it was all lied about. To some extent I think my H feels guilt, but it didn't cause him to drop her. Instead he dropped me.

I know this made you feel good and took your mind off of your problems for a bit, but there is a reason the people at the playland were staring. It is considered almost normal for guys and girls to be close friends these days. But it is also still considered dangerous for two married (not to each other) people to hang out alone (kids don't count) or communicate often as close friends. The more you do this, the more the other person is insinuated into your marriage relationship. If it continues, it will progress. This is an emotional affair. Some say they are more devastating and painful than a PA to the other S because of the emotional intimacy that cannot be dismissed as just sexual attraction.

It doesn't matter if your W has an OP. It doesn't matter if your M is already in trouble. It actually makes it worse. What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. You, I assume, came here to try to save your marriage, or at least save you. If either of those are true, thank your friend, but ask her to sit back a bit until you figure things out, ie stay or head to D. Find some guys to "drink beer and watch sports with".

That's just my 2 cents. Take, leave it, or roll it around a bit. But remember why you're here. And remember your questions and statements about your wife's OM...it could be describing you.

Hope that's not too heavy handed and assuming, but it did strike a chord with me, and maybe some others as well. We're all here to help on this journey. So sometimes our observations bring a little light to a sitch. Sometimes not.

[job]

Do you really want to post the actual names of people in your threads? I don't think it's advisable and I would be happy to remove them for you. It's up to you.

[Brubeck]

Ciluzen, thanks for your 2 cents - but I'm not remotely worried about an emotional affair. The other parents in Playland were staring because Liz made a bit of a spectacle - we hadn't seen each other in 26 years. She's always been like a sister to me. We have a similar sense of humor and shared attitudes about things - but we have walked and continue to walk very different paths. I can't develop feelings for anyone else until I deal with this sitch. Another woman is the last thing on my mind right now.

[Brubeck]

Sure, go ahead Job. Thanks.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Be careful Brubeck with your friend. Feelings could develop and you are carrying a lot of baggage right now. I read what you say and I believe you, right now. Just be careful.

[Mach1]

Be careful Brubeck with your friend. Feelings could develop and you are carrying a lot of baggage right now. I read what you say and I believe you, right now. Just be careful.

As a wise man once told me....

Don't let her off the hook for this...


When you understand that.....???

Then you will be seeing the bigger picture...

[MrBond]

Going through all of your posts, I notice all you ever do is talk about your W and her issues like you're her shrink. But you really glossed over this point from your first post..."I made mistakes in our M. I've handled all our finances (paid off W's school loan & credit card debt), dealing with the bills every month made me a cheapskate when it came to fun. I didn't splurge on weekend getaways or fancy dinners. She could buy whatever she wanted for herself, but I certainly didn't take her out much"

That's what contributed to the marriage crisis. How have you changed this?

And sorry if I missed it, but did you read DB or DR all the way or did you just read about MLC?

[cat04]

Brubeck...

If you haven't figured it out yet by reading the threads here, the people who post are pretty insightful...

Finish DB. It's really important and will help you immensely in navigating the situation.

I understand wanting people to tell you you aren't crazy or the reason for all of this...

There is a whole forum. You aren't crazy.

That being said, we ALL have things that contribute to the downfall of the marriage.

It would be wonderful to just be able to sit back and blame everything on MLC. To say that bad childhoods and abuse are the ONLY reason this is happening.

If we are honest with ourselves, we can't do that. None of us are perfect and whenever you are dealing with more than one person in any situation, you will have different experiences.

Mr. Bond has a great point and I would love to see you answer his question...

And as for your friend...I have read your threads and you do seem to have turned to more than one female for comfort. I understand friendships, one of my best friends is male, however you have to be vigilant about these types of friendships. Things, ie emotions, change before we even realize it sometimes...

[ericmsant2]

Be careful Brubeck with your friend. Feelings could develop and you are carrying a lot of baggage right now. I read what you say and I believe you, right now. Just be careful.

Could not agree more!

It starts slowly (I know from personal experience)…..

“Just friends”…..

…..Then the calls and emails get longer and more frequent

….add that you are usually already feeling like doggie doodoo and unlovable….so….

…you look for someone else to validate you….to remind you that you are “not that bad”…

…then…..it happens….

Here is a wonderful quote that I remember like it was yesterday…think about it….

“Temptation comes when a door is intentionally left open”

Be careful

And

Answer Mr. Bond question.

[AndrewP]

It starts slowly (I know from personal experience)…..

“Just friends”…..

…..Then the calls and emails get longer and more frequent

….add that you are usually already feeling like doggie doodoo and unlovable….so….

…you look for someone else to validate you….to remind you that you are “not that bad”…

…then…..it happens….

Here is a wonderful quote that I remember like it was yesterday…think about it….

“Temptation comes when a door is intentionally left open”

Be careful

From what I understand that is the exact path my W followed and now I'm here.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Brubeck,

So my man, are you seeing some concern here?

Dayum, I'm pretty sure he got the message, I mean I hope he did, otherwise you're as clueless as Roscoe P. Coltrane...and if you don't know who he is...well (censored) me, I'm old. Or you had better class than I did as a kid and watched Nova and Masterpiece Theater on PBS Thursday nights.

How's your day/week going Brubeck?

How are you doing? (You)

How are you doing? (DB-wise)

[Brubeck]

I will work harder to put time aside to read through the DB book (I think I'm only 40 pages in). With my kids all over me, it's just been easier to lurk throughout the forums on my phone and look for posts that help me learn about the MLCer as well as other LBSs.

Ciluzen, ericmsant2, cat04 - I am not worried about an EA with anyone because these female friends are either sick of hearing about my sitch or what my perspective is on it (some DBers too). I chose to speak with female friends because I am more comfortable being vulnerable around them. I don't know how I am "vigilant" about any of these friendships, other than it's new for me to lean on people for help. Ironically, the one woman I have spoken to the most is gay. She has been generous in reminding me of things I need to remember about my sitch and keeping me PMA. She's been skillful at pointing out how juvenile so much of my W's behavior is, because I am taking her MLC so seriously. She's also the only female friend who didn't say she would have already bailed on the M if she were in my shoes.

I don't feel unlovable, I'm just looking for comfort. There's so much uncertainty, vulnerability, fragility and frailty. I'm not used to it. I know what I'm doing at work and with my kids, but I suppose I really don't know where I'm going. I just keep telling myself to savor my last days as a full-time father, however short or long they may be.

MrBond - I definitely contributed my 50% towards a stale marriage. We didn't plan on having a third child. Life got in the way and we were both overwhelmed with the workload of 3 children. The demands of the household were depressing to me and aggravating to her. We became roommates juggling parenting tasks. Looking back, I can see we were both stuck - as a couple and an individuals. If it wasn't for her MLC, we might be in the exact same place right now. I admit something had to change.

I see the "marriage crisis" as a side effect of the MLC. W decided to crash our marriage after her MLC set in. W didn't come to me saying "things aren't good, we have to work things out". She declared she was checking out as my wife, looking to sleep around and that a separation or a D was her only route to happiness ("I want to be free, I don't want to be here.")

W went dark over a month ago, now to the point that she's even stopped communicating about our kids, because she's trying to do it all herself to prove her independence. When I get home, I always make the point of asking 1) how the boys are doing and 2) what's going on with them today. "Fine" and "nothing" are the only replies I ever hear. Of course, she says these things just before tuning out the kids for her cell phone or to leave the house altogether.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Gay lady friend...got it. I like her. She seems pretty awesome and helpful.

You marriage crisis is the side effect of her MLC.

[MrBond]

To me it seems like the other way around. It seems like the marriage problems helped to trigger the MLC. She didn't like the way life was, so she decided to go a different direction.

[MrBond]

Oh and finish the WHOLE book. Not just the MLC section. You'll see that the marriage had alot to do with it.

[cat04]

Ciluzen, ericmsant2, cat04 - I am not worried about an EA with anyone because these female friends are either sick of hearing about my sitch or what my perspective is on it (some DBers too). I chose to speak with female friends because I am more comfortable being vulnerable around them. I don't know how I am "vigilant" about any of these friendships, other than it's new for me to lean on people for help. Ironically, the one woman I have spoken to the most is gay. She has been generous in reminding me of things I need to remember about my sitch and keeping me PMA. She's been skillful at pointing out how juvenile so much of my W's behavior is, because I am taking her MLC so seriously. She's also the only female friend who didn't say she would have already bailed on the M if she were in my shoes.

I don't feel unlovable, I'm just looking for comfort. There's so much uncertainty, vulnerability, fragility and frailty. I'm not used to it. I know what I'm doing at work and with my kids, but I suppose I really don't know where I'm going. I just keep telling myself to savor my last days as a full-time father, however short or long they may be.

MrBond - I definitely contributed my 50% towards a stale marriage. We didn't plan on having a third child. Life got in the way and we were both overwhelmed with the workload of 3 children. The demands of the household were depressing to me and aggravating to her. We became roommates juggling parenting tasks. Looking back, I can see we were both stuck - as a couple and an individuals. If it wasn't for her MLC, we might be in the exact same place right now. I admit something had to change.

I see the "marriage crisis" as a side effect of the MLC. W decided to crash our marriage after her MLC set in. W didn't come to me saying "things aren't good, we have to work things out". She declared she was checking out as my wife, looking to sleep around and that a separation or a D was her only route to happiness ("I want to be free, I don't want to be here.")

Brubeck,

I want to say that I agree with Mr. Bond about the book and I agree with you that the marriage crisis is a side effect of the MLC. Personally, I believe if the marriage was strong and wonderful, the MLCer would turn to the spouse and deal with their problems within the marriage instead of looking outside.

It reminds me of the "Perfect Storm." Problems in the marriage+ no MLC= problems can be resolved. No problems in the marriage + MLC= MLC can be navigated. Problems in the marriage + MLC= Perfect Storm of destruction.

As far as being vigilant about opposite sex friendships, I wanted to clarify...When we have them, and we all do, it is up to the people involved to make sure that the relationship doesn't cross boundaries that endanger the marital/romantic relationship. That could look as simple as no flirting, no talking about relationship stuff, not spending time together without the spouses or other people.

Sometimes these friendships can get a bit more personal and still protect the boundaries of the marriage. It simply depends on all of the people involved.

My biggest confidant is male. How I speak and how he responds makes all of the difference. There is no "white knight" sort of behavior on either part to comfort or fix whatever we might talk about. There is fun, friendship, trust, and occasionally tmi. There is also the knowledge on both parts that IF either of our partners ever said..."this is a problem"... the friendship would be no more. If people saw how we interacted, they would probably never believe there was a deep friendship there.

That is what I meant by being vigilant. No one can police our friendship but us. If it is something we want to continue, we have to be upfront and honest with ourselves and each other about the content.

Another thing that doesn't happen, is that we don't go to each other when we are particularly vunerable. It would be to easy to get lines crossed in that situation. While we like to believe we control our feelings, that isn't always the case, hence the saying "the heart wants what the heart wants". Logic doesn't rule matters of the heart.

Please understand that no one is picking on you. What people (I) picked up on in your thread was the change in your tone when you spoke about your friend that you had lunch with in comparison with your tone in other posts. It set off warning bells. No one here can tell you what to do, but we can try to help you avoid the pitfalls we may face.

I hope you are doing well.

[Brubeck]

W spent her first week back at work after nearly a decade of no employment. Friday night she went out with her gay husbands, came home at 11:30 pm and was dead asleep by midnight. She didn't wake up until 10 am.

Saturday night W left at 10 pm with MLC Friend #3. I awoke at 3:30 am and she still wasn't home. I could not go back to sleep. I stayed up the whole time - this is not good for me. She came home at 7 am via Uber. Went from the front door straight to the couch, went to sleep in her clothes. Did not grab a pillow or a blanket. Didn't even take her sandals off. Later that day, she took the longest shower.

I am obviously bothered big time about her late nights and/or infidelities. I am completely repulsed by this and think she is disgusting for what she's doing, but for some reason I feel better once she's home - not happy, just not anxiety-ridden. To me she's become a slut, but why don't I dismiss her altogether based on that? I am up all hours every Saturday night when she leaves to do God-knows-what with God-knows-who. Every Sunday I am exhausted from the lack of sleep from the night before. I can't keep doing this to myself.

Her adultery feels like the one true deal breaker for me. I can't get over it. I read some thread where a guy's W caught an STD and he still kept on, and I read over & over in archives and from vets that swear repeatedly: the OP means nothing. Nothing.

My W is planning to D me a year from now, she thinks that's when she will be financially capable of paying all the bills herself. When I think about her sleeping with someone else, next year can't come soon enough. It's gross. Maybe I'm not being empathetic enough, but she's just a whore to me right now. I wish I didn't feel this way, I hate having these feelings about her.

I had lunch yesterday with Liz. She knows nothing about DB or MLC but even she's repeated what I've heard here on DB and it still isn't sinking into my skull. She's urging me to detach even more, she thinks I'm in denial. She gave me the whole "crazy people don't know they're crazy" speech and told me that W may never come out of the tunnel and spend the rest of her life convinced that I'm the devil. True to form, W was ranting again about me Saturday afternoon on the phone - all of it lies. It's like a muscle she has to keep working.

Liz said she sees all the stress in my face and says "you're gonna snap, you're gonna say something you'll regret." Without being hard, she pointed out I am frozen with fear. Everything I do is going to be re-arranged in W's mind so she can hate me further, so I need to stop standing still in hopes she will hate me less.

Liz is right. I think something is wrong with me. W has been dark for 2 months, and I remain dim, but I think am not detached ENOUGH. I can't figure out what it is, but there's some part of me that's not letting go, and I wonder if it's letting go of the part of her that is an unfaithful. I am still very emotional. Something is not adding up properly in my brain.

[MrBond]

Did you read all of DB? Much of this is covered in the book.

[MrBond]

And despite her self destructive nature, you should try to reign in your anger. Calling the mother of your kids a slut is going to come out when you're with them. Don't put them in between you two.

[Esame]

I'm in no position to offer advice on the OM, or how you should feel about her, but there is a quote from "Orange is the new black" that I refer to whenever the OW comes to my mind, and it's so bad it's actually really good... So here it comes, (please don't laugh):

"I'm a garden rose, she is a weed"

Surely the context in the series was different, and I might have paraphrased it a little, but it is becoming my motto. Honestly there is loads of wisdom coming from that series

[job]

Esame,

I had to chuckle because that is a very good example to repeat over and over again when you question what the OP has that attracted your spouse.

[CaliGuy]

Her adultery feels like the one true deal breaker for me. I can't get over it. I read some thread where a guy's W caught an STD and he still kept on, and I read over & over in archives and from vets that swear repeatedly: the OP means nothing. Nothing.

I'll wager that was my thread.

Here is the deal, your BD is still fresh and you feel betrayed ... even more so as she is doing it right under your nose and by her actions she in a sense is rubbing that same nose into it.
For me when I found out about the A I was LIVID ... like you that was a deal breaker, over time I can not say when/how or why the sting was not as painful and my desire at the time to have my W and family back overrode the 'deal-breaker' of the A. Thats how I landed on DB some several months after BD.

That being said you do probably need a good dose of Boundaries. You can not control her, but you need to place some boundaries in to protect yourself. Her using you till she is set to jump into the other tree would not work for me TBH ... you may want to give this some thought. ... just my 2 cents.

[Brubeck]

Thanks & praises to MrBond and CaliGuy for their 2 cents...

And despite her self destructive nature, you should try to reign in your anger. Calling the mother of your kids a slut is going to come out when you're with them. Don't put them in between you two.

I agree that I shouldn't put them in between us, and I don't believe I am. She is using them - she has gone so dark that she doesn't communicate about school activities. When something happens regarding school activities that requires my assistance, I ask why am I being asked to participate in this at the last minute only to provide relief or support that nobody else can? She just gets frustrated and says "well you should have asked me about this." That's right, ask about something I didn't know was occurring in the first place. Makes sense.

My derogatory comment about her is a reflection of her as a W, not a mother. It's an apt description for many and an honest expression of my feelings at this time: I think my W is a slut. This is why I am enraged and heartbroken at the same time. She wakes up one day and decides it would be more fulfilling to be a slut than be my wife. I'm not at the 'shrugging my shoulders' point of it yet.

you do probably need a good dose of Boundaries. You can not control her, but you need to place some boundaries in to protect yourself. Her using you till she is set to jump into the other tree would not work for me TBH ... you may want to give this some thought. ... just my 2 cents.

I believe so, but I don't know how to create that. She doesn't know I know... 1) about the A 2) Her plans to become financially independent and then tell me to move out. This is all I've heard her tell friends while snooping. So I guess I have to create boundaries by backing off. Or is there something else I need to do? She's gone dark, she only contacts me to coordinate when I'll be home so she can leave. Maybe too much of this is just going on in my head.

[CaliGuy]

Ok ... so just because its free I will give you some advice.

Snooping .... stop doing that, you have ample time and its driving you crazy and you start to get yourself all spun up and when that happens you start digging/snooping and looking right? Yup ... I have the killer T-Shirt from that tour. Here is the thing, what are you looking to find that you have not already imagined is happening? Who is it hurting more .... you. find a hobby and realize she will do what she will, its time you start doing something other than worry about what/where/who she is doing because at the moment she will continue to do those things regardless while you stress yourself silly about it ..... this is where GAL/PMA and all that comes with it comes into play. All the snooping in the world is not going to help your sitch, so why waste that energy there?

[Brubeck]

Reporting on GALing is boring but I'm criticized when I don't do it, so here goes: I've tried making pit stops at a bar I pass on my bicycle route home from work. I only did it twice and it was just to take a breather to be myself in between being the boss and being Dad. 2 pints of beer in 45 minutes. Being in a different environment is nice, but I haven't found a neighborhood bar for me, and pub regulars are kind of depressing for me. I started working harder at my appearance and I've enjoyed it more than I thought I would. I bought a diving watch I really like and I bought a skull ring to replace my wedding band.

I left last night to eat dinner alone. I hated leaving my sons, and they cried when I left, but I didn't want to cook. I went to a bar & grill that has open mics on Sunday nights. I sing around the house constantly, but I want to try singing in public. It's a big fear I want to overcome. I'm perfectly comfortable performing onstage with my guitar, but singing is so personal.

W did her first marathon Saturday morning. It was a 5K at the suggestion of MLC Friend #2. When she returned home from the race, I prompted the boys to clap when she entered the room. We all applauded and I shouted "Yay Mom! Congratulations!" She said it took less than an hour and she walked half of it, but she seemed glad she did it. She spent more time having breakfast afterwards.

I spoke with JEC Friday evening. She senses I am still trying to blame myself for the MLC because it creates a responsibility for me to fix it and somehow take control. She also said at the same time I am trying to convince myself that W is not really in MLC because I am in search of finding a reasonable explanation in a situation that has none. It's all crazy to begin with. I am refusing to acknowledge the craziness, because I have no control over it.

This is the self work that I struggle with. I am wound up because I feel she controls my future in the following way; I will have my identity altered against my will. I will become a part time father. My quality of life will be diminished because child support will keep me broke for many years to come. I feel like a D is just an inevitability, and because of her adultery, I want a D myself half the time.

Everybody assures me that I'm going to be okay, everybody says just to keep going strong for the boys, but I don't feel okay. Everything feels uncertain and while I don't expect certainty in everything I am certain that being a part time dad who will spend the next decade robbing Peter to pay Paul is going to taste like a never ending bucket of yuck. There was a time when I was just focusing on assuring myself that I wasn't to blame for all this, now I'm looking at my family and and thinking it doesn't matter if it's her fault, it's unpleasant for my sons and I.

My anxiety is returning - that problem of "living in the future". I try to prepare myself for the worst by imagining various difficult scenarios. I suppose this is part of my control problem, I am creating things to fix by telling myself how I would navigate through them even though they haven't happened yet. I guess I am not letting go, when I don't even know what the hell it is I am holding on to. Why am I always trying to scare myself?

Without any choice, I've had to snoop less, and it has reduced the stress a bit. Since going back to work, I am not able to listen to her daytime conversations. What little I am still able to see or hear makes me very angry or very sad, because it's just more lies or exaggerations about my behavior.

[Esame]

Well done for GALling, I bet you felt better after your 45 minute pit stop. I recently bought my first ever bottle of red wine (one that was purchased just for me that is) and enjoy the occasional glass here and there. The first day H gave me his "brutal truth" lecture I drunk two glasses just to get through the phone conversation with my MIL, but obviously since then I didn't drink again, hangovers when you have kids are a different kind of hell, one that I cannot handle!

I can only say one thing about anxiety that proves how useles it is. I spent most of my adult life anxious about all those possible catastrophes that could happen, worrying about this and that, and stressing over everything. My therapist thought that my depression was a result of my high levels of anxiety, that's how bad I was. Did I ever think H would do this to me? Did all those days of worry prepare me of help me in any way? No. I'm still struggling with it, but trying to not let it take over my life.

Take care

[Brubeck]

Evidence of her MLC have started to spread within W's family, appearing as "marriage problems". This morning I received an unexpected call from W's closest cousin E.M. He lives 2 blocks up from us. We meet every morning to take our eldest sons to school together. We've always gotten along great. I've never said anything to anyone in W's family about her MLC or any "marriage problems". I still haven't told my mother.

Do you remember the scene in 'Goodfellas' where Pauly goes to see Henry over at his OW's house and gives him the you're not gonna get a divorce speech? It was kind of like that.

E.M. said months ago my W had spoken briefly about troubles at home and in a vague manner. He didn't know what was going on other than receiving a general vibe of tension. I have a solid reputation with W's family, it's going to be some work for her to convince them that I am Satan himself, so she hasn't bothered with telling them anything. According to E.M. what she told him sounds to me like her safe narrative used elsewhere; we've been having a tough time lately but she wants to work things out. Of course, with her 3 MLC Friends and the OM, I am the "f#king idiot/moron/a$$hole" or "evil bastard" that she can't wait to kick out of the house once she's financially independent.

He gave me the "start dating her again" speech. I tried to explain her sitch without MLC jargon... She's evaluated her life and is unhappy with most of it. She wants to have fun and party. Whatever she does with her marriage - stay or go - is not on her mind right now. She doesn't see herself as a wife. She loves our children and she is committed to keeping the house (so her mother has a place to live in her senior years), but she wants a life opposite of the one she has. She's not interested in the responsibilities of marriage, parenting or owning a home. She wants to be 18 again.

E.M. persisted with the "start dating again" and "work it out" strategy. I tried to explain what her rationale is and there's no one conversation with anyone that's going to 'snap her out of it'. She's actually stuck in a sickness that doesn't go away overnight. He says that she might have "something like a midlife crisis." I said that's exactly what's going on. This is a guy who spent 5 years in prison. For him, his marriage and his 4 kids are all a new lease on life. He said she's got to move on and grow up. I had no reply for that one.

He persisted, I caved in. I told him to brace himself for a BD, then I told him the problem was so bad for her that she was having an A. He only paused for a moment about it, but I could tell he was very surprised to hear it. The last thing anyone would suspect my W of getting into is an A. I left out the other essentials; burning through $6000 in 8 months, rewriting the history of the entire MR, and MASSIVE amounts of lying to everyone. He agreed not to mention our conversation to anyone, and that he would try to find a way to talk to her, but I warned him not to and that if she sensed he spoke with me that it will push her further towards a D.

I was doing well this week before getting this call. I realized the silliness of her plan to turn her life into Sex and the City... with Three Kids... on Minimum Wage. I was telling myself if worse comes to pass and I wind up a weekend father I will have an easier time adjusting to that than whatever "Fabulous at Forty Single Mom" movie she has playing in her head. I had resigned myself to dealing with a D, I realized I can live through that, that I underestimate my ability to adapt. I wasn't thinking about her or the R, I was thinking about other things I was planning. Mentioning the A to W's cousin brought all those awful feelings back. I feel now like I should have kept my mouth shut, but E.M. came to me out of the blue and with great empathy.

[CaliGuy]

Sometimes that stuff is pulled out of us by people who have good intentions (Fixers) and think in some way they can help ... which was why this board was so vital for me during that time as only the people here could relate when I would say my W went monster and I luckily wore the spew jacket.

I was point blank asked by BIL1 if she was having an A, I looked him dead in the eye and told him, she is your sister, feel free to ask her any question you would like. He knew but was not me who said anything ..... the SIL spilled the beans after what I would call a Twin MLC Monster Meltdown of epic proportions.

My advice ... she is in crisis, not your circus not your monkey and you really don't want to be the one letting the cat out the bag, take the high road and be above that stuff, friends and family will think what they will, sift through the lies or believe them its really dependent on the individual, I rose above it ... and I am thankful I did, back in the heat of it I wanted the A exposed to all just to shame her, that was out of hurt and fear, I decided I wanted to be stronger than that and went all Clint Eastwood on it.

[ericmsant2]

One question....

What did you learn from this?

[Brubeck]

(ericmsant2 - what I learned is that while I am still having trouble internalizing all this, you can always shut up. It was just so validating to have someone from her side approach me with concern about her and/or us. I was wishing for this to happen.)

Elsewhere... Monster came to spew Friday night. I was putting away laundry in the MBR when she came in and bluntly asked "So have you thought about our separation?" I said I hadn't. "Well, I want a separation." She sat on the bed, looking at the wall. I said that's OK. "I want child support, that's 32 percent." I asked "32 percent of what?" "Of what you have, we have to make arrangements so we can live like room mates." I told her we were already living that way. "We have to make it legal."

I asked if she meant that she's expecting to receive 32% on top of what I already pay for (which is everything) damn near all of my paycheck. She said yes. Um, ok...I am supposed to fork over 32% on top of the 80% - 90% that goes towards covering the family bills.

I continue to try and DB - to shut up and validate. There is still part of my brain that won't accept this when we get into budget disputes. Money is math and I can't help but speak up when she starts talking like Radiohead lyrics (2+2=5). I tried pointing out that this doesn't make any sense. She immediately starts screaming "I don't f&*king care! God, I wanna punch you in the god damn face!" I leave the room.

She follows me into the darkened living room. "It's over! We're done." I keep my cool. She stands in the front of me wiggling three fingers a hair away from my eyes. "I've talked to 3 lawyers! Three! Do you know what they're telling me to do! They're telling me to bleed you dry! They're telling me to take everything!" I tell her to do what she feels is best, but I am not agreeing to some vague percentage of my income when I still live there and am already paying for everything. She has not received her first paycheck nor has she indicated what she's going to be paying for.

She switches topics yet again and tells me once more that the house is only 25% mine because her name is on the mortgage and the deed (not true, I have both) - all the while jabbing her index finger so she's almost touching my face. She wants me to say "get your finger out of my face", she wants me to escalate everything. I stay still and silent and speak up only when her logic fails. I tell her that I am paying the mortgage and that means more than any title. If she can't pay the mortgage, what is she going to say to the mortgage company? "My name's on the title." They don't care who's name is on the title - the bills must be paid.

I point out at her pay rate and with a weekly deduction of $125 to her mother for child care, she's still has an expendable income of $800 - $1000 per month, depending on taxes. She was visibly annoyed when I shared that I made this calculation for myself, and switched the topic.

Following me back to the MBR, I'm laying in bed with S4 and S3. She regurgitates more of what I've heard before - "my friends can't stand you, and neither can my family, when I told them this year how much I hate you, they all agreed..." "you don't treat me like an equal, you treat me like a teenager..." More of the same. I don't know why she wanted to pick a fight that night, but she pressed on "I'm trying to do this nicely, so we don't get lawyers involved. I don't want this to be a big mess." She's rambling, switching from accusation to threat and back again. "You're an excellent father, I don't want you to hate me forever. Everyone says you're gonna hate me forever." "You know, the courts are gonna give me the kids!" She asks if I have consulted any lawyers "What do you care?" I reply.

She asks why do I want to keep going on. I say "because we're worth it. All of us. You, me, the kids. When it's great, it's the best. You don't throw in the towel at the first roadblock." She looks away and mutters "Uh, well I need time alone." Well sure, I can see that. I notice her time alone doesn't involve asking me to move out, because she'd lose her f$%king mind watching 3 boys by herself when she just wants to disappear into her phone.

"I'm trying to do this with doing as little damage as possible. But, I've made up my mind...between doing this for the kids and me, I choose me." Yes, I kid you not - she actually said that out loud to me.

I don't know what motivated her demand. I just emptied our savings account that day. I don't know if she's noticed. I moved our savings out of our joint account. It's been moved to a single account at a different bank. I built up that savings account by myself storing tax refunds over several years. She's spent 1/3 of our savings in the past 8 months.

I didn't even recapitulate the conversation very well here. It was kernels of truth here & there buried in MLC fog. I can't remember all of it, other than she couldn't account for what our monthly budget is and just replied with screaming "I don't care!" over and over.

Saturday she took S8 and S4 to visit MLC Friend #1 for most of the day. She actually said goodbye to me when she left (and in a pleasant tone of voice). It was cold & rainy. S3 and I took a 3 hour nap, snuggling together. I had the window cracked enough to hear the rain, it was so relaxing. Afterwards, I did some yard work with S3 happily running around. W came home with S8 and S4 around 9:30 PM. S8 was disappointed in the evening, being stuck in some kid's bedroom playing video games he didn't like. I had to console him a bit.

Last night I'm settling in for bed with S4 and S3. S4 and I are having some 'whisper talk' which I always do at bedtime to quiet him down. S4 suddenly asks me "Do you hate Mom?" I was so thrown off I asked him to repeat the question, but I heard right. "No, I love Mommy!" S4 countered with "I hate Mom." I knew right away these were not his own words. I asked where he heard that - "from S8. S8 hates Mom." I asked why and he said "because Mom is always yelling at us and telling us to clean up."

I assured S4 that S8 doesn't hate Mommy, that he was just mad and it's okay to be mad because everyone gets mad. I re-iterated that S8 loves Mommy and so does S3 and so do I and that Mommy loves all of us. S4 smiled, gave me the thumbs up and we went on to talk about something else.

Since mid-July, this has grown progressively true. W does have great moments of affection with our sons (usually when she arrives home or is leaving), but by and large her cell phone remains her constant focus and she engages the boys most when she yells at them to clean up - quite ferociously. She tries to earn favor by always buying them a lot of sweets, but that can only go so far.

I can talk about W with great enthusiasm & encouragement towards our sons, but they are sensing for themselves her detachment and they gravitate towards me more and more. I can't do anything about that but be the best dad I can be.

I loaded up all my Mary J. Blige albums on the mp3. Damn, I forgot about her!

[CaliGuy]

Bru

Reading all that .... man ... yup ... I could have written much of that a couple years ago. I think you handled it well not taking the bait and even thought you did not verbalize it I think you see it for what it is .. Baiting. She needs to demonize you in her mind, you are the sole reason she is not happy and, well everyone hates you... her family told her not to marry you, blah blah blah anything to tarnish your image and you did well. Took me a bit not to take bait in these situations then I discovered the STFU smoothie and I would just look at her in silence as she monstered and more information came out, this would give me a little idea of the things she was telling herself to get all worked up.

The kids will need you more now than ever, even young they know something isn't right with mom so you will have to be the rock for some time. They will look to you for stability because a woman who is yelling at them to clean up one minute then giving them a candy bar the next is confusing .... she will later on most likely do much to repair the damage she is causing to the relationship between her and the kids but this will take time. My W is still trying but often reverts back to this very thing with my son and we are 3 years past BD .... though I think she is better with him now than back in the high conflict years so it does get better.

One thing I would say .. you did well moving the money. They have this fairy tale image going on on how wonderful life will be once they get what they want. 32% over what you are already shelling out ... sounds like a killer deal. When she does start to monster about this its not always back to drink a bit of the STFU smoothie so you know what she THINKS will happen and then go ahead and calmly fire the truth darts laced with what ACTUALLY will happen. Life after separation/Divorce is not what is realistically going to happen and its not a bad thing to educate them on this sometimes. Other times may be best for you to continue the way you have handled this and let her figure it out the hard way (This is what I did ... and continue to do)

You did very well IMHO

[Huddy]

Hats off in an extreme situation. The land of fairies and endless supplies of money must be such a happy place to live. As usual, when the mean separation, they want you to do the moving out, so that they don't have to be inconvenienced.

Sadly, I have also had variations of this spew, more so at the start. Sadly, I ended up not recognising who the woman I married actually was.

[ericmsant2]

Brubeck

ericmsant2 - what I learned is that while I am still having trouble internalizing all this, you can always shut up.

So I guess we can chalk this up to a lesson learned?


Damn dude….sounds like you had a rip roaring Friday night.

What I am about to say may be contrary to some advice that you get on here.

1) Go see a lawyer. Protect yourself and your children.
2) Knowledge is power.
3) Child support is a formula – your lawyer will be able to confirm that.
4) Stop talking to her or even responding. A simple – I am not ready to discuss this – is suffice.
5) Keep being the best dad you can be.
6) Journal, journal, journal.
7) Her outbreaks in front of the kids is a no no and should be journaled. I would suggest when she is on one of these rants that she tone it donw in front of the kids.
8) Question to you…… what is it that YOU want (and I get the whole her pulling her head out her arse)?

I loaded up all my Mary J. Blige albums on the mp3. Damn, I forgot about her!

Damn I should have tried her….I was into Eminem when I was dealing with my sitch…

[MrBond]

"I agree that I shouldn't put them in between us, and I don't believe I am."

You don't think you're putting them between you two, but you are. Your resentment (which is understandable) is building in you and creating a wedge.

"She is using them - she has gone so dark that she doesn't communicate about school activities."

How is this using them? Just because she's asking you for money for support isn't using them.

"When something happens regarding school activities that requires my assistance, I ask why am I being asked to participate in this at the last minute only to provide relief or support that nobody else can? She just gets frustrated and says "well you should have asked me about this." That's right, ask about something I didn't know was occurring in the first place. Makes sense."

If you are doing something for the kids, then do it for the kids because you want to. Not as a way to keep score or to nitpick what she does or say.

"My derogatory comment about her is a reflection of her as a W, not a mother."

If you keep seeing that as how she is, then it will affect your view of her as a mother. You already are by your "she's using them (the kids)" statement.

"I think my W is a slut."

Again, I get the anger. So why don't you just end it? If you don't figure a way to get rid of the anger and resentment, the pressure builds. That's why you haven't made any positive steps with your W's interactions.

"She wakes up one day and decides it would be more fulfilling to be a slut than be my wife. I'm not at the 'shrugging my shoulders' point of it yet."

If you really believe that it happened "all of the sudden", then you haven't learned anything.

[Brubeck]

Ok, just a confused half-rant here...

Did a bit of snooping (I know, I know...) Haven't been able to listen in 3 weeks since W went back to work. I don't know that she's spoken to 3 lawyers, but I do know she spoke to the L that handled her sister's D (who subsequently remarried her H). The L asked for $5000 that my W clearly doesn't have, so she asked again for half. My W is hemming and hawing about asking her mother for the $2500. She doesn't want to get her mother involved and is fearful her mother will refuse to give her the money anyway. She's already afraid her mother is halfway to quitting the babysitting job my W is paying her for.

She was relaying this information while on the phone with the OM (and today's his birthday, doesn't this guy have a life?) The strange thing is she's telling him about our Friday night argument and her version of that story is also full of LIES. She's always hedging that I'm going to fight her over the house when I have no intention of doing so. We've never discussed possession of the house other than my affirmation that who's paying for it weighs more than who's on the title. She invented that she had some amicable plan to split the sale of the house but I refused to hear it. She's never mentioned anything about the future of the house in any discussion. It's never happened except in her mind.

She also embellished other parts of our argument. I interrupted her only to point out the faulty math in her child support proposal. I kept quiet when she discussed her feelings and her plans. In her version to OM, I raised my voice most of the time and interrupted her every point in the conversation. The conversation was typical of her MLC spew - I put up calm resistance at first, but as the talk progressed I kept quiet and let her ramble, validating whenever she asked if I had anything to say. Her version of the argument was exaggerated b.s.

In all her conversations with others about our sitch, I notice how she NEVER mentions the kids. Ever. This worries me. She never worries how they're going to be. I wonder if our sons seem to her like dishes or laundry; things that must be dealt with. She continues to insist on helping S8 with his homework every day, and she continues to blow her fuse in less than 5 minutes when he doesn't get the gist of things right away. I wonder why she just doesn't give up and have me do it. She's tuned out so much else around here.

I found a D lawyer that specializes in father's rights. He charges $125 for a 1 hour consultation. I think that's fair. I will see this guy next weekend.

[Kyh]

Hi Brubeck,

Glad to read you found an attorney. I think I mentioned it before but keep a journal of your w's actions if your not already. My w too seemed not worried about the kids, telling me they were resilient and would be fine. I think they have to tell themselves that to justify themselves, seems par for the course.

[Esame]

Brubeck maybe we need to see our spouses belief of how the children are / will cope as another side effect of their MLC and their inability to think logically. My H (who is generally a decent and honest guy) justified the impact on the kids as acceptable because we moved around so much in the past and we didn't give the kids stability. So his answer to not give the kids stability was to wreck their life by removing the only constant they knew off, their family structure. We have move a lot, and we have no family nearby, so it has always been us (and visits from grandparents etc). But apparently we have done such a bad job as parents so far that it's ok for him to go. I couldn't grasp the logic in that, but I'm just mentioning it to you as an example of the foggy logic of an MLCer.

Great news that you found a lawyer, I hope it all works out for you

[Brubeck]

Holy F%&k am I wound up right now. This is one nervous Friday morning I'm having.

Quick re-cap. I set up private checking & savings accounts, moved out the savings, and set up direct deposit for my new account. Joint checking is still open with $400 left. Even though she received her 1st paycheck on Monday, she continues to use the joint debit card for private purposes (more clothes, lunch & dinner with friends).

The bank will let me close the account by myself, but they won't let me do it with pending transactions, which she continues to make. I don't think she's going to stop. I had no choice but to take her debit card from her purse last night...Immediately into the paper shredder. I felt bad for going into her purse, but she has no qualms about going into my wallet without my knowledge to take my bus card to use on mornings when she can't find hers.

I confronted her this morning about something she did Wednesday night. That night I had a scheduled consultation with a D lawyer and told my W I would be late getting home, closer to 7 pm. She asked me to get home as soon as possible because she was going to dinner directly after work and didn't want her mother stuck with the boys all night. Turns out, dinner was postponed an hour so she came home and let her mother go. She called me in the middle of my consultation at 6:30 pm barking about when I was going to get home.

I was getting home later than expected from the lawyer's office because of downtown traffic. I was going 70 mph on the express lane of the freeway while she is literally calling my cell EVERY MINUTE. I can't pick up while I'm driving so fast. She calls 13 times in 15 minutes. I call her when I get off the freeway. She's barking even more about why I'm late and keeping her there when I had no clue she came home in the first place because she didn't tell me. She just repeats "You're a f$#king a$$hole!" over and over. "You did this to screw me over, because everything you do is to say "f$&k you <W's name>". Then she says, "I'm done, I'm leaving."

I get home 10 minutes later, S8 and S4 are by themselves. S3 is down in the basement apartment with MIL. She's gone. W texts me that she's cutting hair and won't be home until 10 pm. She gets home at a quarter to midnight. I say nothing. Yesterday, she gets home and spends the entire evening on our front steps talking on her cell. I say nothing.

This morning I confront her in the bathroom with the door closed. I tell her immediately to never abandon our children like that. Monster comes out to spew immediately. Denial, avoidance, switching topics, you name it...screaming an inch from my face.

We go back and forth. I bring up S8's birthday, in which she left S8, S4, S3 and the 6 year old she was babysitting alone in the house to go buy pizza with MLC Friend #1. She was gone for all of 10 minutes, but I ask "how long does it take for one of them to get critically injured or KILLED?" She just keeps screaming over and over "They were fine!" I scream over and over "Don't leave our kids unattended."

I get into the shower. S3 is now awake and screaming on the other side of the bathroom door. W just keeps repeating "I f%#king hate you. I hate you. I hate you." She keeps turning the water faucet off. Her mother comes upstairs and knocks on the bathroom door. W opens the door and offers some explanation, but it's in Spanish, and I'm too upset to focus on translating what W is saying to her mother. I repeat to W without screaming "I don't want you to leave our kids alone when you go out" so MIL can hear what I'm arguing about. W says to me "you better shut up now because my mother is getting ready to call the police."

I'm standing naked in the shower, so I cover the lower half of my body with the shower curtain. I lean forward and to the right so MIL can see my face as she's standing outside the bathroom. As calmly as I can, I say to MIL - "Mom, if you feel better calling the police and you want to call the police, go ahead." She says no, she doesn't want to call the police. She says a few more things to W. By now, all three boys are awake. MIL tends to the boys, W offers more spew about how I've never done anything for our children and leaves.

I shower as quickly as a I can while W is consoling the boys. She comes into the bathroom while I'm drying off and says "You know, my friends all tried to convince me that you're a f%$king moron, and I defended you, but now I see their point. You are a f$#king moron." She leaves the bathroom. I get out and start getting S8 ready for school. She's packing her purse for the day, she's tearing up a bit. We meet again in the living room. She starts again "I really hate you. I hate you, and you don't love me. You don't love me at all. Your idea of this relationship working is to have total control over me. You want me to cower to you over everything." I ask her not to tell me what's in my heart or my head. She says I only want to stay married for the kids and to avoid the headache of a D. I remain calm and point out that a D will be no picnic for her either. She leaves.

Before taking S8 to school, I go downstairs to apologize to MIL. I start crying. I tell her I love her daughter and I respect her daughter and I would never hurt her or my children. MIL starts tearing up a little, but avoids eye contact. I reach out with open palms and she receives them to hold hands. She says "You know my English is not so good..." and proceeds to advise me that W and I don't argue in front of the kids. I agree. I tell her as quickly as I can that W is not happy with her marriage, is not happy with the work of motherhood, and is not happy with being 39. She wants everything to be different, and I'm trying to let her do what she wants to do, but I can't have her leaving the kids alone. MIL is struggling for words, but I sense she's already noticed the change in W's behavior this year. S8 interrupts us and I take him to school.

I text W an apology when I get to the office. I'm sorry for raising my voice. I don't like arguing with her. I don't like arguing in front of the kids. I still love her. I love her very much.

[srt]

Hi brubeck, it hurts me to read about your sitch. I don't have much advice for you other than to continue to take the high ground and look out for your kids. Best wishes

[Kyh]

My w did the same with our accounts. She spent out of the joint account (my income) and saved her money in hers so she could leave. Maybe she was using it so I couldn't see what she was spending too, idk. She also maxed out our credit card.

Try to stay calm for yours of and kids. It sounds like she is getting you riled up so she can justify herself. Try not to play into it. In my early days w pulled strings and I danced while she set me up to fail. We never argued until her MLC, then she had to justify herself somehow until I learned not to partake in her craziness, or at least as little as possible. Try to be calm and let her be crazy on her own. I know it's hard.

It is completely unacceptable to leave kids at home like that and I know how the MLC friends are just as crazy as them. What kind of other adult thinks it's okay too? A MLC friend. Next time try to change your approach when you confront her. Instead of saying "never abandon our kids like that", maybe try something like "I was concerned for our kids when you left, it is not acceptable to leave them alone at that age anything could happen, you could easily be reported and checked out by CPS" or something similar. You don't want her to feel attacked. Don't partake if she argues. Dont argue in front of your kids.

Take care of yourself and kids, let your w act crazy on her own don't partake in it.

[ericmsant2]

Brubeck

Did a bit of snooping (I know, I know...)

No you don’t know – otherwise you would not do it.

Think about this for a sec…..

You joined some online group and are securing advice from a bunch of strangers. The strangers tell you NOT to snoop. You do it anyway.

Do you think that maybe YOUR W feels that you said you are/were going to change – yet she feels you will do it again.

Your actions do not match your words Brubeck. And do not think for a moment that YOUR W does not see it. H@ll I do not know you that well and I see it.

I interrupted her only to point out the faulty math in her child support proposal.

And what was the real purpose of interrupting her? Cause from where I sit I would bet that what you really tried to do was plant some fear in her arse that she is not going to be able to afford the life she has now. Do you really want to try and scare her into staying?

I had no choice but to take her debit card from her purse last night...Immediately into the paper shredder. I felt bad for going into her purse, but she has no qualms about going into my wallet without my knowledge to take my bus card to use on mornings when she can't find hers.

What you are doing right now is NOT DBing. It is protecting your arse. I understand why. Just remember these action later down the road.

She just keeps screaming over and over "They were fine!" I scream over and over "Don't leave our kids unattended."

Ummm…how’d that screaming over and over work for ya? Did that approach you take move you closer to YOUR goals?

She starts again "I really hate you. I hate you, and you don't love me. You don't love me at all. Your idea of this relationship working is to have total control over me. You want me to cower to you over everything." I ask her not to tell me what's in my heart or my head. She says I only want to stay married for the kids and to avoid the headache of a D. I remain calm and point out that a D will be no picnic for her either. She leaves.

Dude – do you ever really employ the STFU approach?

Before taking S8 to school, I go downstairs to apologize to MIL. I start crying. I tell her I love her daughter and I respect her daughter and I would never hurt her or my children. MIL starts tearing up a little, but avoids eye contact. I reach out with open palms and she receives them to hold hands. She says "You know my English is not so good..." and proceeds to advise me that W and I don't argue in front of the kids. I agree. I tell her as quickly as I can that W is not happy with her marriage, is not happy with the work of motherhood, and is not happy with being 39. She wants everything to be different, and I'm trying to let her do what she wants to do, but I can't have her leaving the kids alone. MIL is struggling for words, but I sense she's already noticed the change in W's behavior this year.

As I read this I wondered…..are you trying to use MIL to help convince your W that a D is bad. If so, that is manipulative. YOUR ACTIONS are the best tool you have….and honestly, you are doing a really chitty job of DBing.


Your emotion get the best of YOU and YOUR W sees it.

Your actions TOWARDS YOUR W in front of YOUR kids is not helping.


YOUR pride (not to be confused with suggesting that you become a doormat) is NOT helping.


DB101 – Do what works.


You are NOT doing what works.


Do you think you have really changed?

Do you think your actions are someone that she would want to come back to?

I text W an apology when I get to the office.

Maybe if you would learn to STFU you would not need to apologize.


Bru, I am Puerto Rican myself and I get the whole latin culture thing, which IMO, plays a little bit of a role in your sitch.

Your W wants more control and more freedom. You appear to be keeping hold of it in a manner that you are used to. DB is about changing habits.


Case in point – rather than apologize and remind her what she does not want to hear right now (i.e. I still love you)….Maybe you need to come up with a more consistent schedule. For example, maybe a convo with your W that goes like this…….



Hi W, I was thinking that maybe to avoid the disagreement we had the other day, that we should probably come up with a more consistent plan for the kids. I understand that YOU need time for yourself as do I. To that end, I wanted to see if you have any ideas. I have some myself.


Then….you sit back and listen. YOU do not agree to anything you LISTEN. You reflect back (read up on Reflective Listening) to her what she said so she understands that you are really listening to her.

Doing what you are currently doing is NOT helping your cause.


Finally, some of the best advice I received…….


A servant cannot serve two masters.


You either focus on protecting your arse or

You give everything you have to try and db this.


You cannot serve both. That is not to say that you do not afford yourself some protection. I guess said another way…..

Where is YOUR heart really at.


Either way – I will support you so I do not need an answer. The answer is really for YOURSELF.

[Brubeck]

I know not to believe anything, but when she presents herself one way to me and another way to her friends, I get confused.

W received her first paycheck last week and continued to draw from our joint checking account for various things. She paid her mother $375 for the first 3 weeks of babysitting from our joint checking without saying a word to me or asking me beforehand to agree to anything (when discussing going back to work, she itemized that part of her check would go to child care). One week ago, I wrote a polite text asking her please to bring home $375 to re-cover the cost. She bragged to OM that night that she wasn't going to bother doing so. I texted her once again the following day, also ignored.

I waited a week. This morning, I placed her Target charge card on the dresser, attached to a printout of our payment history. I texted her indicating that I paid the August monthly bill of $277 in full, but I would not be paying the September bill of $280. I was leaving that up to her to pay in lieu of the $375 she took without communicating to me about it first.

She called me at the office this morning and went immediately into martyr mode - as always, putting words into my mouth to create meaning behind things I do that she doesn't like. She assumed I'm going to make her pay "half" of the bills, when she makes a 1/3 of what I make. I told her she would only have to pay for her own immediate needs (bus card, cell phone, clothes & entertainment). The only actual monthly bill I was sticking her with was the internet/landline bill of $62 because it was the only bill delivered to our address in her name.

She's already shared her pay rate & number of hours. Deducting taxes, internet/landline, childcare, cell phone and bus card - she is left with monthly spending money somewhere in the vicinity of $700. I don't know if she's done the math on this, she's only received one check yet.

She literally said "I want to know what's going on in your head." She was asking me where is the proof that I love her. Where are my actions that indicate I still love her? I told her the best I can do these days is to continue paying all the bills and giving her all the space she needs since she is so angry with me and doesn't want to speak to me at all.

I told that I cleared out the savings account and that I stopped putting money into the joint checking account, that I set up my own private checking account. I could hear her breaking into tears saying "how could you do that? That's my money, too!"

I kept my cool. I explained that our savings account is smaller by 1/3 and the checking account is 3/4's gone. I calmly explained that I have to protect the family's financial situation. I have to make sure all the bills are paid and everyone has health insurance. I cannot do that when she continues her reckless spending on clothes, restaurants, taxis, video games and "nights out". She did not pursue the crying route. She admitted to "getting crazy" over the spring and summer and "running away from my problems" by making some bad choices.

I know I have to work on how I say these things. I can keep emotion out of my voice, but I use a lot of accusatory language. I tried to emphasize the "I / me / my" part - I have to fulfill my responsibilities to my family and to my home. I try to avoid finger pointing, but she won't let sh!t drop.

Today's holiday allowed me some snooping and my W says she is getting ready to file for a S. Her mother does not want to babysit our sons any further. W wants to put the kids in day care, but cannot qualify for child care assistance unless she is separated. Her mother refused to loan her any money for a lawyer, her mother does not want us to separate.

In the same breath, she's talked of quitting her job that she's only held for a month. I don't know what that's about. The creases forming under under her eyes were there before she got the job and have only gotten deeper. After 8 years on her own schedule, she's gotta get up at 6 AM now. She's passed out at 9 pm only to wake an hour later and stay up past midnight tapping away on her phone.

W has applied for a credit card to pay for a lawyer. She's said she's been afraid to leave me but realizes she has to "walk through hell and fire to get to the other side". I don't know whether that's genuine or if she's quoting movie dialogue once again.

By moving my paycheck (and remaining savings) away from her, she's telling people I am trying to control her through money. I don't get it. She has a job now and most of her own paycheck is nothing but spending cash. I moved the money so I don't see more of it disappear. She's spent $6000 in 8 months. She has upwards of $700 a month in spending cash.

She accused me during our Friday morning argument of trying to be her father and expecting her to cower to me in every way. I know for myself that this is not true. One of the reasons she married me is because I always deferred to her wishes. She's picked our furniture, vacation spots, etc.

I am genuinely torn here. I'm not planning to get down on my knees and proclaim my undying devotion, but I don't know if staying dark/dim is working - even though she continues to act two-faced with me. She's the beleaguered martyr in my presence and the no-bullsh!t, me-first woman taking charge of her life in the presence of others.

I don't know if I really need to put a good foot forward. She still sounds confused, but she seems intent on trying to figure out how to file.

[Brubeck]

ericsmant2 - You are right about this. In so many ways, I am letting my PRIDE get in the way of things. I am not changing, or I am not changing enough. I receive so much conflicting advice, and I don't trust my gut or my heart right now. I don't know where to go.

Covering my butt is a big deal with the money, she just overlooks her spending and how much money is gone and just shrugs it off. It's no big deal.

I'm not using MIL to convince my W that a D is bad, but I was probably reaching out to MIL for feedback, to see if anyone in her family thinks something is off with W. I reached out to yet another person for validation that I'm in an abnormal sitch that I feel powerless over. I still feel like this really is all my fault, because she is my W and I am hard-wired to take her at face value. I still refuse to accept to see the craziness and the frightening possibility that she will end everything acting on the craziness.

It is hard to let go of pride, when half of me wants her to leave anyway. Some days I still have moments of disbelief over her A. I'm just trying to outlast her MLC. I don't know what's going to happen for either of us when she comes out of the tunnel, I just want to make it there if I can.

Part of me thinks DBing is just going dark and nothing else. I guess I'm not trying hard enough to figure out what it is I need to change. I've listed a few things for myself, it's hard to practice. I know I need to give up the need to be right. Drinking the STFU smoothie is getting a little easier, but I couldn't let it go with her leaving the kids alone.

[ericmsant2]

Bru

I know not to believe anything, but when she presents herself one way to me and another way to her friends, I get confused.

Anything after a but is usually the excuse we give ourselves.

If you were more focused on YOU – you would be less focused on her behaviors and not get confused.

W received her first paycheck last week and continued to draw from our joint checking account for various things. She paid her mother $375 for the first 3 weeks of babysitting from our joint checking without saying a word to me or asking me beforehand to agree to anything (when discussing going back to work, she itemized that part of her check would go to child care).

How are martial bills normally paid? Maybe you need to come up with a budget and sit down with her and come to an agreement on who pays what and when.

She bragged to OM that night that she wasn't going to bother doing so. I texted her once again the following day, also ignored.

She bragged to OM…..Hmmm…still snooping are we?

when she makes a 1/3 of what I make

Maybe the solution is to split the bills and allocate 1/3 of the bills to her.

She was asking me where is the proof that I love her.

This is an interesting quote. One that I think you need to be careful with.

I told her the best I can do these days is to continue paying all the bills and giving her all the space she needs since she is so angry with me and doesn't want to speak to me at all.

NOTICE that YOU agreed to pay all of the bills – yet you are also trying to limit HER cash – in part I suspect because you do not want to fund her affair, which I agree with. First stop agreeing the things that you think she wants to hear. Maybe a better answer is that you are respecting her need for space and also working on really looking at some of her complaints and trying to address those.

If I were you…I would spend some time rehearsing answers that you will want to give her. This way you are not shooting from the hip.

I told that I cleared out the savings account and that I stopped putting money into the joint checking account, that I set up my own private checking account. I could hear her breaking into tears saying "how could you do that? That's my money, too!"

Bringing things like this up….only prove to show her that you are more interested in saving your arse.

I calmly explained that I have to protect the family's financial situation. I have to make sure all the bills are paid and everyone has health insurance. I cannot do that when she continues her reckless spending on clothes, restaurants, taxis, video games and "nights out".

Once again…why not sit down with her and include her in the process. I get that she probably may not “get it” – however, doing things the way you described is not getting you the results YOU want. DB101 – if something is not working try something different.

I try to avoid finger pointing, but she won't let sh!t drop.

There is the BUT again….


Ericmsant…I would BUT….I could BUT….I try BUT…..

Bru – YOU can control how you respond. Keep working on it.

Today's holiday allowed me some snooping and my W says she is getting ready to file for a S.

Here we go again….snooping….. Dude, your snooping is impacting YOUR ability to work on your changes. You snoop – then respond…you snoop, then get emotional and respond again. Stop it!

In the same breath, she's talked of quitting her job that she's only held for a month.

How long has she worked in general? Were you the primary bread winner for the duration of the marriage?

she's telling people I am trying to control her through money. I don't get it.

YOU claim you don’t. I thought see it very differently. IMO, you are. You are using finances to control IF she files. As I mentioned earlier….you cannot serve 2 different masters.

I don't know if I really need to put a good foot forward. She still sounds confused, but she seems intent on trying to figure out how to file.

I want you to chew on this question for a bit and I mean really chew on it. Take your time…. Believe it or not….you really already know the answer.

Do you really want to stay married to your W because of the love you have for her, the way she makes you feel, the deep connection you have with her OR are you really just afraid of the impact to YOUR life and that of the kids?

I receive so much conflicting advice, and I don't trust my gut or my heart right now. I don't know where to go.

I actually think you know what your gut it telling you. The question really is….do you like the answer. As for where to go – it really is simple – FOCUS the F*ck on YOU finally. Focus on really making changes that YOU want for YOURSELF.

Covering my butt is a big deal with the money

I get it dude – I really do. You will need to choose…..money or trying to save this and giving it everything you have.

I reached out to yet another person for validation that I'm in an abnormal sitch that I feel powerless over.

As people we really FEEL like we want control. I believe that we actually convince ourselves that we somehow have this control. We don’t. Getting to a place where we accept that we really only control ourselves is KEY. You are powerless because that is what you keep telling yourself….when the reality is quite different.

I still feel like this really is all my fault

A normal feeling if ya ask me. Add to it that the person that you loved has painted you as Lucifer reincarnated. Here is the thing…… Learn to be honest with yourself. Learn to look deep inside yourself. Stop worrying about what everyone else thinks. Once you master this….IMO…..a lot changes…a lot. The changes you want to make for YOURSELF become important – not because of what others say…nope…because you want to change.

It is hard to let go of pride

Hard does not equal impossible.

when half of me wants her to leave anyway

And believe it or not….you do have the power to make that choice. Question is…is that what you really want or is that the hurt that is speaking…or fear.

Part of me thinks DBing is just going dark and nothing else.

Read the book again – there is a lot more to it than just dark, GAL and detach. Given how emotionally you are connected though it is hard to realize that. Detach and things may make more sense.

I'm not trying hard enough to figure out what it is I need to change.

Simple – just do better.


Here is what I see……


You want things to go back to normal. You want her to all of sudden snap out of this. You focus on her and what she is doing. All of this put you in the position to not really FOCUS on you.


So Bru…..what is it that you really want to change about YOURSELF for YOURSELF…..cause trust me….the best chance you have to save this is to really become someone that a women would be a fool to leave

And that…..YOU CAN CONTROL.

Balls in your court.

[ericmsant2]

Just checking in Bru....

I know I tossed a lot of chit your way. Wanted to see how you were doing.

[Brubeck]

Eric - thank you very much for making the effort. I do appreciate you taking the time. There is a lot to chew on, and I don't have answers for all of it.

I moved the money because EVERYBODY started saying this months ago. I hesitated because I didn't want to make her angry & create more arguments. I waited and watched her drain our bank accounts on whatever she wanted. I said we couldn't afford this. I asked her repeatedly to join me in managing our monthly budget. She always said "I'll look into it" and ignored me.

I didn't move the money until 2 weeks ago when she continued to draw from the joint account for her own personal needs after her first paycheck came in. It's mentioned in every other freaking post I've read here on DB - protect your finances! You suggested I did it to control her. I didn't. I did it to protect my family's financial situation. That's exactly what I told her. I can't keep withdrawing from our savings account to cover health insurance every month because she's splurging for $100 dinners and $50 taxi rides.

The bulk of my income is spent paying bills. The bulk of her (new) income is spending money. With deductions for taxes, child care, her cell phone, bus card, etc. she is left with upwards of $700 per month to blow on whatever she wants. Most of her paycheck is hers to waste.

She's already trying to raise $2500 to retain a lawyer for a separation. Her mother refuses to help or participate. She could gather $2500 in 4 months from her paychecks. Instead, she just applied for a credit card in hopes of covering lawyer costs that way.

I keep the house together and focus on the kids. I don't know what else to do. "Hang on" and "Keep busy" are all I can think of. I said I don't know if I'm supposed to put a good foot forward. You said I already know the answer. I don't yet.

I've spent all of 2016 watching her in the tunnel, I don't expect her to just snap out of it. I just don't want everything to work out the way she thinks it's supposed to. I don't want her warped MLC logic to be validated by success.

Thanks again.

[2Lady]

I've been looking at the title of this thread for several days now and it's been bothering me. I keep thinking, if she had cancer, or you had a child that was born with a disability, would you also be saying it was "a battle I didn't choose"? If she had cancer, would it have been a battle she chose either, or the disabled child chose? We don't choose the battles we must face in life, but I think for all the years you have been together you at least owe it to her to try and see this as a battle that isn't of either of your choosing but one that is worth fighting.

[ericmsant2]

Bru
I get the whole protect assets thing. Before you continue to move money around, you may want to check up on what the laws are in your state. In CT, where I live, once a “motion” is filed, everything must remain where it is. Any purchases (exculding the norms, bills, food, etc.) will be scruitinized. So just be careful. I do suggest that you prepare a budget, which leaves BOTH of you with equal disposable income.

I don't know what else to do. "Hang on" and "Keep busy" are all I can think of. I said I don't know if I'm supposed to put a good foot forward. You said I already know the answer. I don't yet.

1) Believe it or not…sometimes doing NOTHING is doing something.
2) Have you really spent time understanding your issues?
3) Have you really spent time trying to figure out WHO (at your core) you want to be?
4) Want something to do? Write down 10 goals for yourself that can be achieved in the next 3 – 6 months. Post them.

I've spent all of 2016 watching her in the tunnel

So your still a newbie…. MLC, should you try and outlast it….takes a LONG time.

For better or for worse – this is the worse part. Anyone can do the better.
In sickness and in health – this is the sickness part. You up for it?

I just don't want everything to work out the way she thinks it's supposed to. I don't want her warped MLC logic to be validated by success.

You know what I see up there ^^^^^^ a scared and angry man that is trying to control the sitch. If I can see it….so can she. How do you think you can change this?

[2Lady]

I just don't want everything to work out the way she thinks it's supposed to. I don't want her warped MLC logic to be validated by success.

You know what I see up there ^^^^^^ a scared and angry man that is trying to control the sitch. If I can see it….so can she. How do you think you can change this?

Brubeck, the language you use to describe your situation suggests you view your relationship with your wife as a war right now and your main goal is winning the war itself, not winning her. That makes her the enemy. You will never get what YOU want if you continue with this attitude. Because as long as you treat her as your enemy, she has zero reason to do anything but do things the way she wants to, however illogical. No one does something for their enemy. Your logic is warped right now too if you think otherwise.

[Brubeck]

Eric - thanks for your continued input.

Of course I am scared and angry! I am TERRIFIED and ENRAGED. This sitch has brought out feelings in volumes I've never experienced before. I've also felt confused, vulnerable, betrayed and grateful like I never imagined. I can oscillate between anger and fear in the same minute. I am trying to get a grip. Most times I'm OK, sometimes I'm not. I come here to vent to find focus because I don't want to act on the extreme emotions. Part of my fear is fear of doing something stupid in reaction to her behavior or getting overwhelmed by the sitch itself.

2Lady - "The Battle I Didn't Choose" is actually a quote I stole from another thread here, a "Welcome Newbie" type of post. It just described the sitch the way I wanted it to. I would obviously not look at my sitch the same if my W or children were dealing with illness. I don't want to walk away from this. Many people have commended me for hanging in there as long as I have (including the D lawyer I saw 2 weeks ago). I want to outlast her MLC to whatever outcome there is on the other side.

I am not trying to treat my W as an enemy, as just saying good morning to her angers her some days. I am avoiding her as much as I can (I will talk whenever she wants to talk). She is treating me like the enemy. I am not trying to match her behavior point-for-point, I am just letting her lead. I am certainly grinding my teeth a bit that I am having my identity changed against my will. My anger towards this probably comes out in these posts.

I've only challenged her about her ignoring our budget and about swearing in front of the children. She ignored me on both issues. I went to the mat with her about leaving them in the house alone when she decides to go somewhere at a moment's notice (my oldest is only 8).

She comes and goes as she wants, which is a lot. She continues to re-decorate the house and throws most of my stuff into the attic. She spends entire evenings hiding in the backyard/attic/basement talking on the phone. I don't interrupt her or stand in her way.

You're right - I don't know if I'm trying to win her back or win the sitch itself. My W is now a person that despises me. She treats me in such a way that all I can do is try to be polite. I'm all for PMA - but it's hard to sing when you're being spit at. She's always looking for an angle to start an argument. Some days I am not trying to win her back because I don't know what to do.

Last night she told OM she's going to start paperwork this week on filing for a separation. He tried to talk her out of it and that pissed her off. W and I live under the same roof and I pay 90% of the bills. Whatever a separation is going to do for her is a mystery.

Thanks for the attention and for listening.

[Brubeck]

Came home from work yesterday. W met me in kitchen and calmly said "I have paperwork for you". Petition for D. Also a temporary restraining order forbidding me from moving / selling / hiding any marital assets or our money. W found listening device I put in MBR, restraining order says I also can't record conversations. I moved the money 2 weeks ago after she got a job and kept spending on herself from our joint account. I did not blow any money - I moved it to stop her from more overspending. Tracked every penny, I have all bank statements from past 2 years.

Petition is asking for child support, alimony, and for me to pay her court costs.

Called my brother. Spilled the news about everything that's happened since January. Obviously shocked, on phone for 3 hours. Told me to lay my cards on the table with her. Waited for kids to go to sleep. I calmly told her that I don't want this and I don't think this is the answer. I love her and want to work this out and it's going to be a lot of hard work and I am willing to do it. I have stayed away from her this year to give her the space she wants.

I said we cannot try to repair this sand castle that's falling apart. We have to build a new sand castle, and all I'm asking her to do right now is pick up the shovel...just talk. I said a 2 foot sand castle with her is better than a 8 foot sand castle with any other woman in the world. Maybe DBing says I should have shrugged at the D papers and just turned away, but I've been turning away all year. I didn't beg, plead, cry or even ask. I just stated what I wanted for us.

Her first response was "I don't know". Given that she gave me D papers 4 hours earlier, I consider it a good sign.

W starts MLC monologue. She's pretty calm, but a lot of stuff I've heard before. She felt like a prisoner as a stay-at-home mom. "I wanna be free". She needs new friends who are just acquaintances. More accusations that I treat her like a teenage daughter and try to control her. STFU Smoothie for most of it.

Another BD - she quit her job. Only been at it one month. She gave 2 weeks notice. I asked why and she said her mother doesn't want to babysit the kids anymore. We're paying her $125 a week. She has to quit her job to return to being at home with the kids.

Gotta stop analyzing her, but I'm confused again. She hands me D papers and then says I quit my job. One activity seems to contradict the other. Don't know if lawyer told her to quit to secure alimony and/or qualify for welfare. No clue.

She thinks I just don't care because in August during a D conversation over the phone with me at work my reply to a D was "that's not in my best interest." She says it feels like I'm saying "it's cheaper to keep her". That's when I start talking and object. I feel like she's putting words in my mouth. I say there's a big difference between those two sentences and she shouldn't conflate one with the other. She says the first statement makes her feel like the second statement. I say I can't be held responsible for her feelings for things I didn't say. She gets angry, doesn't raise her voice, but gets up & leaves.

This morning - I repeat back to her her feelings about feeling like being a stay-at-home mom is a prison. I ask her not to quit her job. She's doing great and I know she loves being out of the house. I say we'll figure out a plan to help her mother stay on board with babysitting. This job is her ticket to independence and I want to see her happy. She quickly says "well I already gave notice and they're already interviewing new people". Her tone of voice feels like a lie. She leaves for work.

Just picking up vibes from her last night and this morning. She feels sad, lost, she doesn't know what to do.

I'm going to talk to her tonight. I'm going to ask as calmly as I can what she expects the outcome of this situation is going to be. What does she expect of custody of the kids? How much income does she expect to have at hand? Does she realize we will most likely lose the house? Where will she go with the kids? Her mother will find a new place with friends or relatives, but she's about to turn 70, how W feel about that?

Should she say "I don't know" to all this, I plan to press on as gently as I can. I need to know what her PLANS are because they affect the quality of our children's lives. If she moves to another area, our boys might be in a lesser school.

Called law firm, $350 consultation and $3K retainer for the court date. Good God, we're not rich. If we go through with all this, it will bankrupt our family. We will lose the house. W and the boys will be forced into a basement apartment, so will I, and so will her mother. We're just getting by, but for Heavens Sake, we already have it all.

I've been looping "Make Me Wanna Holler" all morning. Today is our 13th wedding anniversary.

[Esame]

Brubeck I am really sorry your wife gave you the paperwork, it must be a terrifying time for you.

Brubeck if I discovered a recording device in my bedroom I would never be able to trust my H ever again. And I'm sure if he discovered one in his bedroom it would push him further away.

I can tell you now, the answer to all those questions you want to ask your wife will be that she knows. She knows you will lose the house, she knows you will be poorer, she knows it is bad for the kids, and her mother and everything. But she cannot care about any of that now. My advice is to avoid those talks, and turn to the Last Resort or whatever it is called, and actually DB!

My H told me he is done, he wants nothing to do with me, he wants out. I'm trying to buy myself some time, hopefully to "ride it out" if possible. I know how you are feeling, it is a terrible situation. But you cannot talk sense into her.. All you will achieve is to push her further away.

[Brubeck]

No one can tell me that my W already knows the answers to these questions. Basic math has failed her because she's drained our bank accounts by almost half. I have to make an effort to explain to her that getting a D will impact the entire future of her mother's life and her children's life because nothing she is planning is financially viable AT ALL. You might say "She doesn't care" - well I do!

Avoiding these talks is to do nothing. She's placed a restraining order on our bank accounts. We have a court date on the 31st, and I only have 30 days to reply to the petition for D. She is thoughtlessly burning down her own life out of rage because she cannot think of another answer. This decision will ruin the lives of her children, her parents and myself. I will not beg, plead, cry or scream. I will talk to her every day that while a D might be good for her - it will ruin the lives of 7 other people (kids, me, MIL & FIL, uncle).

I cannot sit around any further, I have adhered to doormat tactics all year long. She is now seeking a D, she is asking me to quit my entire life. I cannot do that. I am not responding to that with inaction. I have spent this year giving her space & freedom to do whatever she wants. If she spent another year of spacing out on her cell phone and ignoring the kids, I would have gone along.

She wants to destroy our home. GALing and going dark is not the answer. I have to try and explain the CONSEQUENCES of her actions - especially on her own children. If I lose, at least I tried.

[Esame]

Andrew you know you wife better than anyone else, and you know your situation best. I'm only suggesting that your wife might already know the answers to those questions because only two weeks ago I had the same conversations with my H. My H who is the most logical person I know, but I couldn't get through to him at all. And I said all those things. The kids, the money, the parents in law, everything. He is adamant that he wants out, he wants a D. He was so convinced he was right about it, that he told his mum that we separated. His mum just finished chemotherapy. I think while they are in their fog there is no speech you can make that will get through to them. Maybe you should get legal advice or a meditator? Or counselling? Maybe one of the vets can give better advice than me. Best of luck, I wish there was something I could do to help

[Sotto]

Sadly, logic doesn't tend to prevail with MLCers, who are very much emotion-driven. Please don't feel that you can appeal to their logical side, as that is very much secondary to feelings just now. However, do take reasonable steps to protect your own interests.

[Gordie]

Brubeck,

So I just read through all of your threads. Any update? Your signature says there is a new EA?

[Brubeck]

Gordie,

Thanks for asking, brother. I appreciate it. Plenty happens with a live-in MLCer, but I stopped posting for many reasons. I was just too tired, and I knew 2x4s are used around here, but the 2x4s I was receiving from ericsmant2, Mach1 and (I think) CaliGuy I didn't understand. I just didn't get what they were trying to say. I get it now, but it's still hard for me. Detaching and GALing requires massive application on my part - but it does pay off when I do it.

I never stopped lurking here at DB. I've been reading threads the entire time. It's comforting. Many of my friends don't understand MLC. Some don't ask about my W anymore, I understand they're sick of hearing about it, and I need to detach and get on with other things - which I enjoy when I focus on it. The one friend who still listens to me processing with my W's MLC stuff has dealt a great deal with bi-polar disorder, which MLC looks like sometimes, so she understands.

I lost my job at the end of December. The company that bought us out had offices in states with lower overhead costs. Chicago is expensive. The president called me personally to tell me he was closing our office. I was given 30 days notice and a small severance. He thanked me for being a solid Operations Manager and said he was satisfied with how I ran the office. It was just a money thing for him. I admit I almost laughed after I got the call. This came at the end of the worst year of my life. Dealing with a year of MLC and watching my life blow up in front of me.

I've been looking for a new job since the New Year. I had two phone interviews for positions right up my alley and was passed over for both. I was told both times that I was qualified but they found candidates with experience more specific to the position. I don't think I projected enough confidence. I didn't do any chest-beating, I stuck to the facts and showcased a lot of my know-how and detailed information about the specifics of my industry. I think for future interviews I'll need to do a little more general boasting about my ability to handle anything, etc. Someone told me not to focus on details unless they ask. The details are in my resume.

I admit I don't know what I want to do. I am looking for something in the exact same role as before, but what kept me at my company for 21 years was the environment. I loved the people and that made the work great. Competency and kindness were not mutually exclusive.

Part of me is saying "just find something in your industry that pays enough to handle all the bills!" The other part of me is asking "What do you really want to do?" With a stay-at-home wife, 3 boys, a mortgage and a D and child support payments coming up, I don't feel I have the option to ask the big question. I know I'd like to work with good people in a positive environment, more than anything else.

I submit 2 or 3 resumes a day, but my heart is not in this job search. I want to work, I want the bills paid, but I don't know what I want to do. I don't want to be at home all day.

Funny thing is, W has not asked me ONCE about our budget since I was given 30 days notice. She has not started any conversation about how to handle our financial situation. She's also not informing me about school stuff with the kids, I am finding things out through a school app. I don't know if she's excluding me on purpose or if her MLC amnesia is at work.

W is getting worse in slow increments. I remember reading MLC checklists about a year ago and finding she only fit a quarter of them. Now that list is more than half. The same problems persist for her - memory lapses, insomnia, short temper, starving herself then binge-eating, wasting money (her account, not mine), cell phone addiction, and so on. She's also losing some hair and getting acne on her back and neck.

The freakiest thing to emerge is the paranoia. I NEVER thought this would happen too. Based on nothing more than unopened pieces of mail, my W thinks I am now hiding or funneling money from her. The scariest part is, she's reporting some of this crap to her lawyer. She also thinks I'm hiding my severance pay from her. I never mentioned my severance pay. She just assumed I got one. She's right, and it's been sitting there all along in our joint account since December 30th. She's never bothered to look.

She tells me she's convinced that I am trying to screw her over financially one-last-time before the D is final. I asked if she knew what dissipation was. She didn't. I explain it's when you suspiciously move money around during a D, and that ANYTHING I do could be considered dissipation. She called me a "f**king idiot" (in front of the boys) and said I am just ignoring my lawyer and taking advice from my mother or someone else who "doesn't trust technology". I try to listen and validate, but I am not going to apologize or defend her crazy accusations. She ran out of steam and left the room waving both of her middle fingers at me, saying "I've hated you for years".

One thing I've learned (here and elsewhere) was about learning not to worry. Live in the moment. Getting anxious about the future only robs me of the moment. I have to work at it with chanting, but I am getting better at turning off my brain at night.

I will post more later. Had to puke all that out of my brain. Sorry for the length.

[Gordie]

1. Sorry about the job loss, that on top of everything else, just stinks. The fact that she hasn't looked in the joint account for your severance? Classic.

2. Your W not keeping you up about the kids' school is a problem. This can't be the pattern now as it will only get worse after a S or D. Have you informed the school administration so that both of you are included on all communication?

3. The anger towards you at nearly all times is excruciating. I don't think I'd be able to handle that. How have you managed to not lose your mind and soul?

[HaWho]

Brubeck - sorry about the job. I know exactly what you mean about the importance of having a kind work environment. When you have a live-in, you can't go from one misery to the next and and then back to the first, only to start it all over again.

The MLC paranoia is brutal. Not much more I can say on that. And yes, mine grew worse, too, over time as my posts chronicle.

I was thinking of you recently. When we returned from back east and revisited all my h's old haunts he retold many stories from childhood plus added some new horrific gems to the pile. In general, I found it very hard to be around his parents. I just know too much. And yes, it was long ago and people change: blah, blah, blah. But a child is a child and wrong is always wrong.

Anyway I thought of you and wondered how you managed to live with your MIL, too, through it all. I was curious how your MIL handles this all? Does she notice that something is very wrong with her daughter?

I just went through interviews myself. I also feel like I did not exhibit enough confidence. I found I needed to sell myself more but without cockiness. Also? I did the best at the companies where I immediately (from cover letter to phone screen to interview) specifically told them what I loved about them. If they made x product, I went, bought it and spoke specifically about it. If they provided y service "oh, I love this about your service..." I also researched the companies, extensively, via Glassdoor to see what past interviewees and current employees said. I was surprised by how often people relayed information that ended up being true.

One last thing I found had changed is that now it is acceptable at the end of a phone screen to politely ask for an interview! I am so old that I was taught this was rude and unprofessional. But if it's a role you do like, it is acceptable to say something like: "I am really interested in this position and I'd love the opportunity to interview for this."

You've got this! Just look at what you've already survived.

It was nice to hear an update.

[Brubeck]

The job hunt is starting to get some replies. I have 2 more interviews lined up next week and a couple of people have offered to pass my resume on to some friends. I've asked old colleagues to write recommendations on LinkedIn, and every one of them have said yes so far. It's discouraging, I've sent my resume to over 30 companies. I try to stay positive and remind myself that I am largely looking for work outside my industry - so I'm gonna knock on many doors that won't open.

The upside to being unemployed for the past 6 weeks is I have spent so much time with S3 that I have made leaps & bounds in his vocabulary. He can say so many words now and not just in response, but he also begins conversations too. He's singing as well and taking small steps with toilet training. I didn't notice his improvement until after a month of being at home. He was evaluated and approved for speech therapy last summer, but the only available school wasn't within walking distance, so W never bothered enrolling him.

I don't know if his vocabulary had also been stalled because I learned from being at home during the day that W barely speaks with the boys. Her daytime schedule is exactly the same as her night time schedule - in bed & on the phone.

I found out that S8 has had behavior problems at school - he's being targeted by bullies. He was moved to a different table and doing better at first, until he started getting cranky with nearby classmates for not completing "group work" on time. His teacher notified us about the 2nd problem through a school app, which is how I learned about it, but the initial problem was reported directly to W, who never told me.

I reached out to S8's teacher directly via email, and received a very enthusiastic response. We agreed that we saw similarities in S8 having no academic issues but just difficulty in transitioning to new activities. She was very happy to hear me ask what we could do at home to improve his behavior.

There's also problems with one of the kids who come over. MLC Friend #1 has a 10 year old boy who is kind of uptight and introverted and doesn't socialize well and is put off by my S8. When this kid feels bothered, my W sides with this kid and lectures S8 about leaving him alone. I don't know why she would side against S8 in view of her guests, maybe it's just easier for her.

Again, this has been going on for months, but I just learned about it. She's so damn NC that she won't even discuss the kids with me anymore. Her only discussions with me are logistics, making sure I'm home to watch the kids for whenever she goes out, and sometimes even that doesn't happen. She just says "I'm going out with MLC Friend #1" on her way out the front door.

I want to say something to her, but observing things around the house, I know her memory skills are f%*ked up. MLC Friend #1 gave us a gigantic goose last month. W put it in the freezer, where it took up more than half the space. After 3 weeks in there, I threw it out. She never asked about it. When our tax forms came in, she angrily demanded my W2 forms so she could file taxes for the year. That was a month ago, they're still sitting on the bookshelf.

I see forgetfulness left and right in her, except when she walks into the same room as me! No matter how happy she is with her phone conversation, she always puts on a kill-you face when I get within eyeshot.

I'm going with S8 on a field trip tomorrow to a forest preserve. I'm looking forward to getting away to nature for a bit.

Belated discovery: U2's Songs of Innocence. A little weird by their standards, but we all gotta grow.

[FightOn]

Brubeck, hang in there with the job search. It sounds like you have some promising leads. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

The memory lapses are astounding aren't they? They are so wrapped up in themselves everything that doesn't directly relate to them seems to go right out the window. It could almost be funny, but then when you see it have an impact on the children and their lives, well, it's maddening.

Have fun tomorrow on the field trip with S8. It sounds like it'll be a fun adventure!

[Brubeck]

W's lawyer filed another motion last week. It was a court order for me to seek employment. At the time of its filing, I had been searching for a job for 1 month. I had already been on 2 interviews. I spend a minimum of 2 hours each morning submitting my resume online to companies. W knows this. She knows every bit of this. She still had her lawyer file this useless motion. I don't know why.

I asked her why she would authorize such a thing. I stated the aforementioned facts about going on 2 interviews and working online daily. I told her this was useless paperwork and that she's running up a huge legal bill for both of us. She just shrugged and said the lawyer initially suggested this as a back-up plan but "went ahead and sent the order in anyway". I know this is a lie. My L's office verifies any activity from me beforehand.

Half of my 2nd retainer is already used up dealing with this crap. I will probably have to put down another retainer in a few months. I am contemplating the possibility that filing for bankruptcy may be in my future.

I reported to my lawyer's office 2 weeks ago that W has a private checking/savings account that I know nothing about and have no access to. If I have to disclose all my income - and share half after bill payments - as part of the financial restraining order, why does she get to keep her account private? They said they'd get back to me. It's been two weeks.

Another wrinkle. I checked the joint account this weekend and W has just made a payment of $200 towards a credit card in her name. I know nothing of any credit card she has, so this card is new and for her personal use and violates the terms of our financial restraining order.

I've been 2 months unemployed now. W lays in bed all day and night clutching her cell phone for conversation or video games. She's up until 2 am every night watching television shows and often sleeps in her clothes.

She has gotten nicer and more affectionate with the boys lately, but there are still moments where she turns on them in a heartbeat.

Friday morning I am getting ready for a job interview. The bathroom sink is clogged up. I tell W I will fix it when I return. I get home and find a plunger in the bath tub. I enter the kids room where she's on the phone. I stand in the doorway, I don't interrupt, and I wait to be acknowledged by her. She tells the person on the other line to hold on.

M: "I saw a plunger in the bath tub. Did something else go wrong?"

W: "The sink is clogged."

M: "Yes, I know. Did something else get clogged while I was out?"

W: "No, I was trying to plunge the bathroom sink."

M: "Oh, OK."

I turn around to leave. She snaps - "OK, bye!"

I have reduced my contact with her to only absolute necessities - household needs, the kids, and budget. Even with just talking about these necessary things, she finds ways to get nasty.

The next day, I am running cleaner through the bathroom sink. She says we should just call a plumber. I remind her that we just spent $260 after the holidays fixing the shower and if we can drain the sink without calling a plumber, I'd rather do it that way. Besides, it's Saturday and we might have to wait until Monday anyway. Oh yeah, I am freaking unemployed.

She snaps again, speaking very rapidly - "I don't want to sit around watching you check out YouTube videos all day on how to fix this yourself. How about if I just call my lawyer and have her file a motion that orders you to fix the sink? How about we do it that way? I don't wanna wait around forever while you figure out how this works." She leaves.

I relay both stories to my mother and my friend MW. They are both flabbergasted. They don't understand how I can still live there.

[Kyh]

Hi Brubeck,

Sorry you're dealing w/this. Reminds me of when my w contacted her attorney because the dogs got in a fight, lol. I don't have much to offer but just wanted to say to keep a journal of these things if you aren't already. The journal I kept was inavaluable when I had to get a guardian attorney.

Good luck w/ the job search and keep taking care if yourself and your kids.

[Gordie]

How are you doing? How is the job search? Are you guys still under the same roof?

[Brubeck]

Hi Gordie - thanks for asking about me.

I am almost 3 months unemployed. I've interviewed with 6 companies so far. I've been passed over every time, but it really hasn't fazed me yet. I've signed on with 2 headhunter agencies last week and hope to see some more interviews. I am collecting unemployment and still have some severance pay left. I am making a point not to get upset or anxious about this. My first year of being a LBS included much lost sleep and skipped meals. I am making strides in dealing better with my anxiety. I am going to keep looking for a job, but I am not going to worry about it.

I shared this with my friend MW, who reminded me that this is really the FIRST time I am looking for a job in today's climate. I am pretty lucky to get to the age of 43 before having to pound the pavement for a paycheck. The other thing I am learning about while going on job interviews is to allow myself mistakes - I am simply not going to land a job from the first interview I get. I am acknowledging that these mistakes are part of the process and I am drawing the lesson from them whenever I can. It's the Capricorn in me - beating myself up when things don't turn out perfect or when I don't feel like the Master.

I have been doing a lot of reflecting and I feel I am possibly no longer standing. I may just be in an anger phase once again. I am just waiting out the D to its inevitable conclusion. When W filed for D, it energized me to DB even more, and I needed to. Anger and fear motivated a lot of my behavior and it's something I needed (and still need) to change. I know I can justify the anger and fear within me by looking at the sitch she's created, but I know it's not healthy for me, and it doesn't feel healthy. I know this corner of my heart that's been turned to stone by her BD and subsequent behavior is not good for me.

Nonetheless, over the past 3 months, I slowly feel like I am arriving at the conclusion that I am just really repulsed by all of her behavior. D or no D, I don't want to feel this way forever. I think she's disgusting, and I want these feelings to go away. I'd rather be happy.

One of my mother's comments to me about my sitch was that she sensed some jealousy on my part about OM. I never considered it because one thing I truly never struggled with in my life was envy. I also can say that in 19 years with W, the last freaking thing I ever worried about was adultery. I wouldn't have married her if that was any concern in the back of my mind. Until BD, it wasn't a possibility. Her A may be the first time I am grappling with jealousy. There may be some corner of my mind I haven't acknowledged yet.

I guess I am jealous of OM. Her A definitely makes me feel inadequate. I do wonder - why does she prefer him? From what I've gathered, OM spends so much time on the phone with my W because he's basically sitting around waiting for his own W to call. OM is separated. His W calls him - whenever she feels like it - to come over and be her Temporary Husband for the evening (homework with the kids, cook dinner, etc). This guy doesn't do anything else but sit in his apartment all night talking to my W about the most banal minutia. OM calls her 5 or 6 times a day, usually to tell her about the latest work place drama, and she hangs on to every word. I. Don't. Get. It.

The jealousy, the fear, the anger - I guess they all grow from the same place; my ego. I don't know how to handle this. I don't think I am doing the heavy work on myself yet. I think I am only in the process of acknowledging what I think I need to do to free myself.

As for W, nothing has changed. 3 months of unemployment has got me spending even more time at home. I see she spends the entire day gripping her cell phone for talking / texting / video games / TV shows. I've come to rename her "One Armed [W's name]".

She has been going to the gym 3 - 4 nights a week. She's lost a lot of weight, she's nearing a figure closer to when I first met her. Still crazily applying creams to her face, still plucking body hair whenever possible, still starving herself and then breaking her diet once a week with jelly beans or an Italian beef sandwich.

A lot of her MLC stuff is still ever present - nightly insomnia, memory lapses, shark eyes, avoiding responsibility and decisions, leaving the house whenever possible, thinning hair and black circles under her eye sockets. She's been trying harder with our sons lately, but a lot of that is still overloading them with toys and junk food and sweets.

I am GALing more, not exactly the things I want to do, but getting out of the house helps.

I am catching up on many current threads here. You guys are tough.

[skm0619]

Brubeck.......I have been reading along on your sitch and today after reading what you put I thought I would say thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is what you said that really made me think:

Anger and fear motivated a lot of my behavior and it's something I needed (and still need) to change. I know I can justify the anger and fear within me by looking at the sitch she's created, but I know it's not healthy for me, and it doesn't feel healthy. I know this corner of my heart that's been turned to stone by her BD and subsequent behavior is not good for me.

This made me look at how I have been behaving in regard to my anger. It is something that can consume me quite easily. I am really trying to learn to let it go.....some days are better then others.

Good luck to you on your job search.

[Gordie]

Gordie: Brubeck, thanks for the update, sounds like a lot has happened, internally:

Brubeck: I am going to keep looking for a job, but I am not going to worry about it.

Gordie: This is the right attitude. This can also overlap with your GAL activities. Network like crazy, go meet up with old colleagues, clients, acquaintances. I have never gotten a new job through a headhunter, always through networking.

Brubeck: Nonetheless, over the past 3 months, I slowly feel like I am arriving at the conclusion that I am just really repulsed by all of her behavior. D or no D, I don't want to feel this way forever. I think she's disgusting, and I want these feelings to go away. I'd rather be happy.

Gordie: I know that feeling...of wanting the negative feelings to go away. Like you, I don't want to be angry and sad and bitter for the rest of my life...and as you know, you don't have to be...you can choose the opposite.

Brubeck: I guess I am jealous of OM. Her A definitely makes me feel inadequate. I do wonder - why does she prefer him?

Gordie: I think we all have these thoughts...but I urge you not to dwell on them. Nothing good will come of it.

Gotta run...more later...

[Brubeck]

Mental hygiene update. I know I ramble.

I'm realizing I never posted here as much as I thought I should because I got the same advice over and over from other posters. I suppose I wasn't listening. I was discussing some recent outburst from W and my mother pointed out that I am always "re-loading the spring" to get ready for more of her drama and to react with anger on the basis that I don't deserve this. I think she's right.

I'm making improvements at GALing, detaching, validating and being non-confrontational with W. I'm not where I want to be, but I can see the difference between now and last summer when I was a blubbering pile of tears talking to myself all night. I'm also taking steps in facing fears - tiny ones. It's never a specific fear that I have, but just the general fear of entering situations with anticipation that something will go wrong.

GALing means stepping away from here as well. I still check in a couple times a week to catch up as much as I can. Irish, Gordie, HaWho, SBJ, bttrfly, Coly23, Pax, FightOn, CaliGuy... I'm still following you. Soldier on. I don't know if Mach1 is still posting. Hate to say it, but I've grown to like his 2x4s - whoever he's swinging at.

Three weeks ago, I started using the library for internet access while my computer was being repaired. It was so peaceful to job hunt online without 2 little kiddos climbing all over me. I am still visiting the library daily just to read a periodical or watch something on my tablet. I love my boys so much, and I feel bad when I leave them alone with W and her mood swings, but I need to decompress. Anyway, she's determined to go the single mom route so she might as well get a taste of it.

Still job hunting. Unemployed for 4 months now. I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I have enjoyed the downtime. I am keeping busy with submitting my resume wherever I can. I am also taking online seminars on ways to improve my resume and my online profile, so my resume is a work in progress.

I hope I got a break this week. I interviewed with a company on Monday. They called the next day to schedule a 2nd interview with the immediate management staff that I would be working with. I interviewed on Friday with 2 supervisors and felt a decent rapport with both of them. I got a great feeling from everybody that I met. It's the same type of management position, just a different industry. I was told not to expect to hear from anyone for another week. After so many rejection e-mails and no replies from resume submittals, it was encouraging to be requested for a 2nd interview within the same week. As I left, the doorman in the lobby joked with me that he knew I was gonna get the job just based on the suit I wore.

W's MLC Friends and real friends all seemed to disappear at once for about a week - so she was focused on the boys for a while and being nicer to them, but not as interactive as before. The alien soon returned - whisper-to-a-scream commands and lectures, lectures, lectures. Good Heavens, she loves to sit them down and babble for upwards of 10 minutes about why they need to clean their room or why she "isn't the maid around here". I wonder if this how MIL treated her growing up.

W is the same. In bed - TV, texting, video games. Now she takes ephedrine tablets in the day and melatonin pills in the evening. Up until 2 AM every night, often sleeping in her clothes. Telling the kids "go ask/tell your father" whenever possible. Trying to turn EVERY conversation into an argument. I noticed a few instances where she went without bathing for 2 - 3 days. I don't think she noticed the time passing. Her new obsession is having no body hair.

Still on phone with OM all day and night, gossiping about other people's problems and listening to him talk about his job or his M problems. She hasn't had any late night "mystery" disappearances in a while. I think OM is just an EA now, but I could be wrong. I don't care right now. I am DBing for the sake of it, but I don't feel as if I'm standing.

W stopped preparing dinner for the boys, they ask me for it. She also doesn't help S8 with homework anymore, so I step in whenever necessary (Common core math is ridiculous). Nonetheless, whenever the boys get the house too dirty, she grinds her teeth at me and repeats how she can't wait for the D to be finalized so she can "do this all my way!".

Last week, S3 was visiting MIL downstairs. I hear him crying and coming up the basement staircase towards the 1st floor. MIL was bringing him upstairs because he got a bloody nose. The thing that stood out was when MIL got to the top of the staircase, she opened the door and called out for me, not W. That's never happened before, ever. She may be acquiescing to the fact that I'm the more attentive parent these days.

I did a load of my laundry a few days later. MIL has a habit of taking loads out of the washer and putting them in the dryer no matter whose it is. I came downstairs to the laundry room to find that she typically put my clothes in the dryer, but she got hangers and hung up all my shirts as well. Another first.

MIL recently returned from 3 weeks in Guatemala. While she was gone, W's oldest sister suddenly appeared for weekly visits and frequent phone calls. Strange thing is, big sis lives 90 minutes away and only bothers to visit or call during major holidays. Once MIL returned from Guatemala, big sis stopped her contact. It's possible big sis just doesn't want to hang out with my W while MIL is there, but I can't help wonder if MIL asked big sis to visit and keep an eye on W while she was in Guatemala.

Big sis is on the verge of D herself (15 years of raging alcoholism has taken it's toll). I heard W on the phone with her saying how they're going to support each other through this difficult time. It's the deaf leading the blind as far as I'm concerned, both are too lost in their own fog to be empathetic towards anyone else, but it's healthy for them to try.

MIL recently shared with W that while she was in Guatemala she went to a church and lit prayer candles for all her daughters, and said something along the lines of "I'm hoping you'll get through all of this but that may include having to get your head out of the sand".

Despite the unemployment, despite legal costs of the D, and despite W's roller coaster moods towards the boys, I am making a point not to panic about anything. I can't say I'm happy with everything, but I am feeling content that I am maintaining under these circumstances. Peace to all.

[25yearsmlc]

Brubeck

God forgive me but there were moments I read your last post and just SMH, and other times I had to laugh. I'm sorry, but it's SO insane sounding,

and offensive - as a woman especially - that I guess laughter is my coping tool.

I recall your history some, (and read most of your thread)

but has anyone at any time (other than you, of course) suggested she get a physical?

I've been thru menopause. It's not a venue for insanity. So I do NOT want to throw out some "Change of life insanity excuse"

partly b/c it offends me a woman. Plus, I've seen far too many LBS h's around pointing to the change of life as THE reason their m's are in crisis ("crazy w's") and it deflects from themselves and frankly, there are times it's just misguided. Way Too simple.

But women do know more about this now. When I had hot flashes, I went to get some help, when my libido was affected, I got some meds.

(Otherwise it'd be like saying "Oh, I can't taste food anymore - so I'll just eat this gruel to live...and serve it to my family too.")

But the sleeping cycles and binge/starvation eating and what sounds like laziness to such a degree as to = depression. Has she gotten an endocrine tests for maybe Possibly a thyroid issue? A pituitary problem? Extreme hormonal swings?

Same with the decreased interest in the kids, which is NOT common in my experience.


For mothers and especially most SAHM's, being a good mother is THE priority and THE source of our identity...
so, how our children view us, knowing they are our priority, is the single most important perspective we (usually) care about.

Your w's behaviors are so unhealthy & mean & crazy sounding (new??) habits. How new are they?

And throw in the wanting her L to "order you to fix the sink!" (yeah...that's a normal thing to say...) or when she says she "can't wait for the D so she can clean HER WAY!!..."

I'm not suggesting you say anything to her, b/c you know, you're you.

But otherwise?? Anyone else say a word to her? Anyone? (Bueller??)

- and what's the time line for the D?

When could you get out of this situation, if it came down to it?

[25yearsmlc]

PS

I think I like your MIL. What a lousy position for her to be placed in.

Don't assume she's your enemy...and she may be terrified of what the future holds, for her. Or prepping to return to Guatemala? God help her.

And btw, if any DBer has a kid grow up to pull this crap on their families, ever,

I hope we can all agree to do some real "Splainin'" to them...

So help me, down the road if my s30 or d's pull a stunt like this w/ their families, or what their dad is doing,

our r will not be the same.

Anyhow, a friend of the family sent me the note below. I think it may help you to find some peace. (She liked my h, btw.)


Please - everything he says is just BS at this point.

25- IDK if he will ever be able to be truly at peace with what he has done to you and the kids...
Seriously.

Not saying this to console you, or make you feel superior;

but I think he will be haunted by his actions - one way or another - for the rest of his life.
If he is a decent human being, regret, shame and guilt will
sooner or later get the best of him.

You simply cannot inflict such pain and damage to those who

Love you the most, and emerge unscathed.

And if he is truly devoid of kindness and empathy, then you are better off without him, despite so much pain and destruction.

You WILL rise above all of this and THRIVE. You just need to have faith (even when sometimes you cannot fathom things getting better) and really fake it till you make it.

You and your kids deserve better after so many years of struggling as a family.

[FightOn]

Hi Brubeck!! So nice to hear from you.

Please don't feel guilty for needing a little downtime from the little ones. We all need it and get it when we can. Especially when we are the primary caretaker, we need time to take care of ourselves to recharge our batteries and re center ourselves. Enjoy it and don't think twice about it. You deserve it.

I am sorry things are still crazy in Casa Brubeck. Your W sounds like she needs help.

Like 25 says, the way she is acting toward her children is unnatural. Has she always been like this?

Congrats on the 2nd job interview! I will send up a prayer that you get it.

It sounds like you have a secret ally in your MIL. And the way you describe how your SIL popped in and then popped out it does sound like your MIL might have had her check on W while she was gone. Your MIL knows what is up and she probably doesn't just see it with the way your W is acting; she probably sees how your children are reacting to the situation. It has been that way in my sitch. H's family has seen how S behaves around H and they know.

Hang in there. You are doing awesome!

[Pax_luv]

Just popping in and hoping that you hear something positive from the interview!

[Brubeck]

5 months unemployed now. 200 resume submittals have yielded 8 interviews. A couple of them I knew were out of my reach, a few of them I thought I had a 50/50 shot at, and a couple seemed like sure things. I guess not.

I wonder what I am doing wrong here. I am focusing on the areas where my resume is getting the most responses, but it's frustrating. In a month or two, I'm going to have to lower my standards and take whatever I can get. It's weird. I got my first job one month after turning 16 years old and I collected a paycheck for 27 years without worry.

I had fears about this happening a few years ago. Around 2013, I could see the company I was with was only treading water instead of thriving. I knew the owner was waiting for business to improve on its own, instead of trying to hustle a bit. I realized I could not work at this company forever, and that when I left that place that I would be at a crossroads as to what to do next. I spent 2 decades at that place, moving laterally through 3 different management positions because it was such an amazing environment.

I am applying for positions where I believe I have a chance of getting hired - but I feel I'm spinning my wheels. Other than being part of a solid team, I don't know what I want to do.

I'm tired of spending 3 hours a day doing job searches online with S3 and S5 crawling all over me while W lays in bed sleeping or staring at her phone. I want to get back to work so I can finalize the D and get out of here, far away from Crazy Pants.

MLC Friend #1 has pretty much disappeared. She just got a D and moved into a new apartment in the same nearby neighborhood. I overheard W say she's tired of MLC Friend #1 getting clingy, but who knows.

Our last cat died last week. I could tell something was up with our cat a couple of weeks prior to that. Day by day, she was eating slightly less and walking slower. 2 days prior to her dying, W finally noticed something was off with her. All W had to say was "She's old, she's done" in a very cold tone of voice.

The day before our cat died, W told me she was spending the following evening at the 40th birthday party for Real Friend #2. That afternoon I scheduled a doctor's appointment for the cat and was preparing to take her in. W asked me what time was the appointment. It was scheduled an hour before she was set to leave for the party.

"No! The party starts at six but MLC Friend #2 is coming to pick me up at 5:15. Why did you schedule this appointment so I have to be stuck at home with the kids!" That MLC anger is a flick of the finger.

I honestly didn't know MLC Friend #2 was coming to get her 45 minutes early. W barely tells me anything about her schedule anyway. I tried to adjust immediately. S5 already asked to come with, and I said I would take S8 with me to the veterinarian's office. I would leave S3 with MIL if she was home, or take all 3 boys with if necessary.

She wasn't budging. "So you just expected me to skip this party and watch the kids while you take all f***ing night at a vet's office downtown when there's a vet office around the corner!"

I explained I booked the downtown vet office because it was much cheaper and we're on a tight budget cause I'm not working. I got lost for a moment - I didn't realize this was rooted in MLC spew and not a legitimate complaint. In genuine confusion - I asked what the problem was? I didn't know she was leaving earlier than she said. I have changed my course of direction - I will take all 3 boys with me so she could leave whenever she wanted. The issue has been settled. What's the problem?

Broken record on repeat - "You scheduled this appointment time on purpose to trying and keep me at home with the kids. You tried on purpose to f***king do this." I wasn't going to argue with her, but I wasn't validating this crap either. I maintained eye contact, kept silent and she eventually walked away. She had to believe I was out to get her. She spewed all this in front of the kids, as usual.

I took the cat in. I was sure it was renal failure because I've seen it before. They put her down. She was 17, so she lived a good while. W never asked about the cat after that. 2 evenings later, W woke me at 1 AM to kill a large black beetle that parked itself on the bathroom floor. She sounded genuinely scared and creeped out when she woke me.

[25yearsmlc]

Sometimes the only thing you can say is "Seriously.?"

Then walk away...
( "/"Do you hear yourself?" / "Bye, I have to take our sick FAMILY pet in now...")

Good grief. And I'm sorry about your cat. Really.

[25yearsmlc]

ps

the month before h left (unbeknownst to me) our 11 y/o family dog got sick. I was out of town and h told me he crated her while he was at work. No, he did not take her in

and btw, h was a veterinarian before he was a physician - and I can barely write this...

a month later after h had left, and I filed for divorce, the dog just looked horrible. I could not drive due to the seizures.

my uber driver saw the dog and carried her into the car, and drove me and "MY" dog to the vets. They missed whatever the problem was even though they did tests.

D28 took the dog (sort of d28's dog anyhow) and I took the "puppy" east with me.

A month later d28 asked h and me what to do as family dog seemed very sick, but it might have been a treatable disease. In fact it appeared to be treatable.

H's response was that he was "available for medical advice..." (read "not money")

I privately texted h what he thought or would suggest, and he said one word in his text to me...

"euthanasia".

a few weeks and $$ later, (money from me and my sisters, and d28, btw)

the family dog was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

S30, and d19 and I (& my sisters and some good family friends) all supported d28 as she made the only choice she could make. H was not involved until after the fact and said something like he "loved that dog" etc.

Like he'd been a part of it. God, I cannot believe this is the man I married and loved for decades.

Brubeck,

I'm sorry. Take care of your kids & good luck with the job search. I've got a law degree and practiced law until the last child was born. Not getting interviews at all, so far.

H has a pristine resume but has decided to "retire" now that the court ordered him to pay support.

of course it's unfair. Grand scheme of things, I know I'm better off than most people on the planet and I mean that. I get it.

Still, right now you hurt. I get that too. But I have a friend who lost her son last fall, out of nowhere.

So I try hard to focus on gratitude b/c in the end, what are our choices?

Misery and limbo, or embracing what life has thrust upon us and keeping at it?

[Gordie]

Brubeck,

1. One thing that has helped me with my W's anger is realizing it usually isn't about me. It's lifted a weight off of my shoulders

2. Job hunting with s3 and s5 crawling on you is terribly difficult. Can you do that out of the house at a coffee shop or at the library or elsewhere? I too had to recently leave a long time job and. Got it through networking not online. What are you doing offline?

[peacetoday]

Geez

so sorry about the cat and your W

It is such a tough road and to be responsible for 3 young kids
My xh Left I had 2 ages 5 and 11
somehow it worked and they are 22 and 16 now

keep strong
the right job will come your way because you are doing the right things
I believe the universe works this way

[Georgiabelle]

Brubeck,

I haven't read your sitch but I wanted to say I'm sorry you find yourself here. I understand your frustration with the job search but keep at it. Reach out to folks on LinkedIn, friends, acquaintances, etc. Something will pop! I know it sounds crazy, but some companies nowadays view it as an odd thing when someone works at a company for so long. Crazy, right?

I'm so sorry about your cat. It sounds like the cat had a great life and you were very compassionate at the end. And MLC or no MLC, I realized years ago that you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat animals and the waitstaff.

Hang in there!

[Brubeck]

I splurged within one week and went to see 3 bands that I love for the first time. My closest friend E.D. came with for the third band. We had a great time. I just discovered yesterday that the CSO will be playing the entire score to Jaws at the end of this month. Jaws is my favorite film of all time. I scored a first row balcony seat for $50. I'm stoked.

Thank you 25yearsmlc, Gordie, Georgiabelle, peacetoday for the good wishes regarding my job hunt. I appreciate it. Unemployment was OK for a very short while, but being unemployed just feels like having another weekend day, but without my sons around.

9th job interview tomorrow. I've had 2 phone screenings with this company. The 2nd screening was with the person I would report to directly, so I was approved by him over the phone. I'm told I will be meeting the Operations Director, the staff, and take a tour of the facility.

I pray to God I get this. I'm getting nervous. My unemployment ends in 2 months. I have to take whatever I can get if I don't get a job by then. "It's always darkest before dawn", I'm told. I sure hope so. I am praying.

Dealing with unemployment and being a LBS is a serious blow to one's self-esteem. Sometimes it feels like the only affirmation I have is how much my sons trust me.

I read a lot of old threads and archives over the weekend. One recurring message from both LBS' and surviving MLCers was to not try and make sense of any of this. You cannot make out what's inside their head (they may not either) and you wouldn't want to anyhow. Stay away. Lay low. STFU smoothie as much as I can.

I avoid W at all costs and do everything possible to keep the boys out of her hair. When she does speak with me, she projects anger and/or annoyance with every sentence. Her face and voice always wear the blazing hot feeling of F**K YOU. She only seems content when she says she's leaving the house to go somewhere.

When she's forced to deal with the kids, or if I make a mistake somewhere regarding household stuff, I get spewing - Please do us both a favor and finish this divorce. I see no reason why I should pretend you are not here and parent all by myself. I'm still doing way more around here than her, what is she talking about?

I guess this is what gaslighting is, even if it's unintentional. The MLCer creates a crazy situation and inhabits it comfortably. The LBS sees the trainwreck unfolding and how calm the MLCer is about it and it makes them feel crazy.

Indeed, MLC ain't for the weak - even for the bystanders. It's hard to stomach this every day. This is an overflowing bucket of crazy.

[Brubeck]

I got a job and I am back at work. I got hired by a huge national corporation for a position very similar to my last one. The pay is only 3% less and I'll be managing double the number of employees. This company put me through 4 interviews in one week. They had me in for the 4th interview only 24 hours after the 3rd interview...the COO happened to be in town and he wanted to meet me.

This feels weird. I worked for a "family" business for 21 years, and now I am at the total opposite end of the spectrum. Friends said working for a corporation is much less personable and there's less camaraderie involved but the benefits will be better. They are right so far.

Everyone asks me if I like it and how I feel about it. After 5 1/2 months of unemployment, I don't care. It's discouraging to submit your resume over 200 times out into the "black hole" and only receive 9 interviews. I'm glad I have a job.

I'm still getting my feet wet. 2 weeks and they're still working out problems with my e-mail account and the locker I applied for. The I.T. department is in Dallas and the H.R. department is in Seattle - I guess this is just how things run in the corporate world. I still can't believe I got my foot in here, though. I'm happy I did, because I didn't B.S. any of the people who interviewed me. I was myself, and I was genuine in explaining how I manage things and how I interact with employees and managers.

Everyone here is really nice. There is a bit of a clique vibe here, but nothing unpleasant. The environment is casual and accommodating.

I got the backyard pool assembled for the boys. They are pigs in slop. Of course, W acknowledged none of this. She's too busy planning her 40th birthday party. I am expecting her to tell me she's leaving the country for a 3-day weekend, but so far it looks like all she can get her friends to agree on is a pub crawl...real friends & MLC friends alike have been invited.

The only recent conversation of note was W was in the middle of one of her "this house is always dirty" spews. She came into the dining room where I was with all 3 boys and accused me of specifically waiting for her to mop the entire house before buying the boys watermelon. All my boys love watermelon and they make a mess of eating it. I was guilty of strategically buying watermelon to mess up the hardwood floors just after she mopped them. With both middle fingers aimed at me in front on the boys, she said "if that isn't a big F**k you to me then I don't know what is." I maintained eye contact and stayed silent. She ran out of steam and stormed off as usual. I guess the evil I embody to her runs so deep in me that I can make buying fresh fruit seem sinister.

All the recent legal garbage over the D has revealed that her lawyer is one unethical woman. I've also come to realize a lot of difficult things about her family via her MLC detachment from them. I'm going to post on all that later for myself.

Still feels like my life is in limbo. Focusing on the kids and the new job, but I am still struggling so hard to keep my mouth shut with monster spewing at random.

[FightOn]

Congrats on the new job! I am so happy for you. It sounds like a wonderful opportunity! Way to go. It was a hard slog, but you got through it. Yay!!!

I really don't know what to say about the watermelon incident of the summer of 2017. I suppose it gives you a slight peek into the mind of the MLC'er. Everything we do gets twisted around to feed their justifications for what they are doing. We cannot do anything right. And giving you the double bird in front of the kids. Tsk, tsk on her.

[bttrfly]

congratulations on the new gig!
as for the rest, here is a lovely summer spew-proof poncho, good for repelling acid baths, spew, vomit and watermelon bits. It's from the CaliGuy Summer of Love collection

great job on the stuff smoothie. don't think i would have been able to remain silent. doing that in front of the kids would have sent me into a special place. not a good special place either, lol.

hang in there and keep the focus on what's important as you have been. xoxoxo

[bttrfly]

stuff = stfu, auto-incorrect at it again

[HaWho]

What a viper lie MLCer. Sounds like she has a lot of anger to burn out.

Congrats on the job!! Nicely done.

[ciluzen]

Congrats on getting the job! That's got to feel a bit better!

Sounds like MLCer is feeling stressed and unappreciated, which is what most MLCers feel or say they feel. The woe is me, Eyore point of view that every effort they make in life is trampled on, especially by the spouse. Its a pity she can't see past that. You handled it just fine. Hey, watermelon is messy...and delicious! Can't deny that summer treat to the kids...and its fun to watch them enjoying life.

[Gordie]

Awesome news on the new job. It is a hard adjustment from a small family firm to a large corporation but sounds like you are doing well with that.

Re the watermelon incident, if it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny.

[Brubeck]

The legal stuff for mental filing.

September, 2016 - W gets a job. She keeps the entire paycheck to herself in a private account. Continues to drain the joint checking account with personal purchases. I move all the money into private accounts. She tries to act hurt when I tell her this but is an awful actor.

October, 2016 - W files for a D. Her divorce lawyer also gets a financial restraining order placed on my bank accounts. My money is frozen. I hire a divorce L, he works on unfreezing the accounts with the other L. Her L insists on a court order saying my W is entitled of half of my net pay after bills are paid. We agree. Her L says we can unfreeze the account, but it turns out she's wrong - only she can do it. It takes 3 weeks to get done. I have to live off credit cards during that time.

The court order also stipulates that W can't leave the kids at home alone (she did it twice). Her L tries to put in a motion to forbid me from making audio recordings at home (I was snooping). My L has this stricken from the court order but doesn't tell me (I see it in the first draft but not the second).

November, 2016 - Opposing L direct mails me two forms to fill out - "Interrogatories" and "Notice To Produce". The first is my financial portfolio and the second my financial history. I notify my L. They ask me to fill out what I can and mail it back to them. Nothing further.

February, 2017 - Lose my job the month before. Her L files a petition demanding I get a job. W knows I'm looking for a job. I tell her it's a waste of money for both of us and it's going to cost me just to reply to this nonsense. W gets sheepish and looks away and says her L filed the motion without her approval, that it was in place as a "back-up". A lie.

March, 2017 - I google her L. In practice since 1989. No website. Google maps shows her address is unmarked office out in the suburbs. Only reviews I can find are negative - dishonest, unprepared, greedy, uncommunicative. Much of this verified by my L, my W's complaints, or myself. Takes days to return calls. Every piece of litigation has typos. Doesn't follow procedures.

April, 2017 - Tax returns. W asks how should we handle it. I say $900 has to go to the water bill and we can split the rest 50/50. She says her L wants to put it in escrow until a later date. I say my lawyer has to approve this first. She drops the conversation.

May, 2017 - Both tax returns in the joint savings account on May 1st. 2 weeks later, W calls me after dropping off S5 at school. She sounds very sad & tired - asks if I can watch S3 because her L has requested a sudden visit (W always gave me 2 days notice of her L appointments). The next day, savings account is almost empty. W withdrew $7000. I notify my L. They call her L. Her L acknowledges withdrawal, demands it be put in escrow. My L says let's acquiesce, says we need to pick our battles. I agree.

June, 2017 - My L drafts letter of agreement for her L - stating only amount of tax return and that it will be kept in escrow by her until further notice - that's all. Sent and no reply. Phone calls and emails to her office go un-returned for 2 weeks. My L finally files a petition in court, by refusing to acknowledge written escrow arrangement, W violated court order from October. Her L files a reply, denying everything.

Her L files petition for me to get a job for the 2nd time. Also files "Claims of Dissipation" against me, basically accusing me of hiding / stealing / sequestering money. The charges are clearly lifted from another client or just made up. All sorts of crazy claims - I have 2 cars, a motorcycle, a timeshare condo. I failed to pay off her car (car is in my name and W doesn't drive), I hid money to pay for 7 different vacations I never took. Claim also says we separated in March, 2010 - we're still legally married! At the end of 3 pages worth of lies is my W's signature - did she sign this without reading it?

My L refutes all claims in court. Her L admits there are many errors and withdraws the claim. Judge rules against my W, requests Financial Affidavits from both of us. Mine is finished, W has yet to submit one.

During this time, I found a check made out to my W for $2765. Payer on check is L's office but office has no address printed! Memo field reads Remainder of 7000, 4235 already paid to [L's initials]. I think W stole tax return at L's command to pay her. Did her L give a remainder back as some kind of bonus? Maybe with instructions not to cash it until D is final (check is undated).

I send check to my L. They send it back with instructions to return it to W, says the check falls under attorney/client privilege. I expected this, just sent it to them to see what they'd say. I don't know if I want to give her the check back, she hasn't noticed yet that it's missing. If she confronts me about it, she has to admit the check exists in the first place.

July, 2017 - I receive notification from one of my creditors that her L subpoeana'd them back in March. The creditor didn't process this until end of June. I forward paperwork to my L. My L says nothing to worry - her L couldn't subpoena any creditors without submitting a Financial Affidavit first. She also says the same thing is true of the "Interrogatories" and "Notice To Produce" forms sent last November. She also said those forms shouldn't have been sent directly to me in the first place.

I don't know if W's lawyer is truly incompetent or a sick, clever genius. It appears as if she's made mistake after mistake, or is this all a ploy to wear me down?

My L is detailed, takes time to explain everything and makes sure I approve of everything first, but she won't commit to saying anything she can't prove in court - even off the record. She won't interpret anything other than the document itself.

I am thinking too much about all of this.

[HTM]

Brubeck,

Don't think you're overthinking it and good to see you've got a good summary of events recorded for reference -even if just here on the forum.

IMHO, your W's L sounds inept but you also have to remember who's steering/driving many of the L's actions, an MLCer!

I have encountered numerous L & court docs over the last year and the supporting info & statements given by W is almost farcical. My W raised a court order because I wouldn't leave the house when she demanded it. It had a supporting 26 point witness statement that hardly had anything factual in it at all. Events described within this document merged into one another, were exaggerated, timelines were skewed, there were incorrect or missing dates and at least two points contradicted each other. Of course, no mention of her inappropriate relationship. I still to this day can't believe someone at the court didn't read this through and say to her 'Do you really want to submit this?'

I believe you are handling the D/legal situation well and your L seems to be on top of their game.

[Brubeck]

I want to journal this also cause it's just something I realized, that W has really detached from her own relatives.

When I think my sitch reaches a plateau - she changes, or I realize something else about her MLC or myself.

I remember early last year (about 2 months after BD) when I first discovered she was in MLC. She accused me of "abandoning" her during one of her very first spews. I did a web search on "abandonment issues" and "confronting your mortality". I read all about MLC, I found DB and finally got my hands on heavy MLC information.

At the time, she only matched out 1/4 of the MLC checklist. I knew about OM but thought it was just an EA instead of a PA. All the other stuff hadn't flourished yet, and damn it did - overspending, detaching, staying out, new friends, crazy exercise, filing for D, ignoring the kids, etc. A year and half later - I don't recognize this person. She is someone spilling over with enormous selfishness, anger and cruelty who has done things I never thought her capable of. Images from her cell phone make her smile more than her children do.

I only realized about a month ago that she's detached from her own relatives. I feel so silly for not noticing sooner. I suppose it's because I've stayed in relatively decent contact with a few of her cousins myself.

Her cousins and their children are the same age as us. There is a birthday party almost every month. I just realized we have not been to any family gatherings in a year and a half. At the last party she attended, W sat at the dining room table and talked to one person all night. Six months later, we made our annual Halloween trip to a pumpkin farm. At the last minute, she decided to stay home and I took the boys without her - to spend the day with her relatives.

That was the last time we visited with any of her relatives. We have not been to any family birthday parties in 2017. Those parties are typically organized by the wives via Facebook. I don't know if she ignored the invite, declined, or was not invited. Her relatives know she filed for D.

What detachment I've been able to accomplish for myself has allowed me to step back and also see just how incredibly damaged both of her sisters are. I read on someone's thread that their spouse and a few of their siblings are all in MLC. I can't say that my W's sisters are in MLC, but they are definitely messed up.

I've never sensed any bond between W and her sisters, or between the sisters and their mother. They were friendly with each other, but there was a formality present - they socialized like co-workers. I wondered for years about it, but I never asked W. I assumed some family structures are like that, even though I always got a great vibe amongst her other relatives who were more like my own family (minus the wine and bad language).

Big sis is the Alpha-type. Big money in real estate, huge house with all the status symbols. Beginning in her mid-30s, she developed a drinking problem. She's been lost deep in alcoholism for 15 years now but hiding the problem like a pro beneath a fancy wardrobe and great social skills. She racked up drunk driving arrests, hospitalizations, loss of business, etc. Then she got cancer - stayed sober through it and beat it in less than a year - and then resumed her drinking.

She got her drivers license revoked. Her H cut off the money and took away the car keys. She found ways to have wine delivered to the house using a gasoline (credit) card. Big sis is passed out drunk most days by 3 pm - her 2 teenage kids would step in and help her keep it together while H was gone most of the time managing their business. She tries to go sober and crashes every couple of months.

Apparently her H is waiting another year for the younger child to graduate HS and leave for college before he files for D and sells the house.

The phone calls that W gets from big sis are usually "I'm drinking again", and pre-BD W would seem remorseful about the sitch big sis was in. After BD, she would still take these calls and offer sympathy and then complain afterwards about her neediness. The most recent call from Big Sis was the same deal, she's drinking again and thinks her H is going to file for D any day now. W offered her all sorts of support about how they're both in the same boat and they're going to be get through these D's together. Afterwards, W makes a call complaining all over again how Big Sis needs to "grow up and get over it already".

Big sis came to visit about two months ago. She's bone thin but is starting to get that bloated, wrinkled face that long-time alcoholics get.

Middle sis is worse off than Big sis or my W - an incredibly angry and selfish woman who only calls you when she wants something. She is always starting "something new", and she never completes any of it. She's still bouncing around from one entry level part time job to another in her late 40s. I can't imagine the number of unfinished arts & crafts projects stuffed in her closets.

Middle sis got a D a few years ago. She tried to launch her own clothing store and it started to fail right away, so she had an A. She and her H eventually re-married, but things aren't the same between them. He was friendly & sociable before her A, but since they got back together he has become far more reserved and even a bit cold. I think he reconciled just for the kids.

Years ago, W made clear that the physical abuse she received as a child was equally doled out to her by her mother and middle sis. W said middle sis was always mad about something and sometimes would literally use my W as a punching bag to get the aggression out. As long as I've known my W, she has always avoided middle sis, because she only wants favors and offers little in return. You would only be invited to her house on an occasion where you're expected to bring a gift.

I never really stood back to look at them until a month ago. I just never evaluated them through their flaws, because we all have them. Only now do I see how W's sisters are struggling just as badly as her, albeit in different ways. They all seem to be hanging on by their fingernails. Middle sis has probably never known anything else and has made a life of it.

Middle sis is 8 years older than my W, and Big sis is 10 years older, so I guess because of the age differences, they got affected in different ways. I don't know if middle sis or big sis had to deal with the verbal, physical and sexual abuse that my W received.

I can't imagine the things they had to deal with growing up with such a brutal, angry drunk of a mother. No money, sometime little food, no father, always moving house, not much personal space - cramped in with relatives, mother is always away at work or partying and she's bringing home the wrong kind of men (including the man who sexually abused W). In their family photos, their mother is seldom smiling, looks angry most of the time. They are clearly all trying to survive something, what it was I don't know.

I know I'm supposed to be talking about GALing or venting frustration about understanding MLC behaviors, but this is just the stuff I need to say to help me keep going. STFU smoothies are getting hard to drink with all the spewing W does at me and the kids.

[Gordie]

Brubeck,

As someone who doesn't walk in your shoes but am reading this post, let me say out loud: this is not about you. It's just so sad and tragic for her, for you, for your kids. This is the epitome of you didn't break her so you can't fix her. It seems like abuse plays so prominently in so many of these stories. It breaks my heart.

Also, I hope you get the help you need too as this has clearly shaken you to your core. Remember that this is not about you. She didn't deserve what happened to her. You don't deserve what is happening to you. Question is how do we heal from this and make life better for ourselves and our children?

Gordie

[Brubeck]

Well one day I hope I can look back at all this and ask myself how did I make it through? This crap just goes on and on.

The Sept. 5th court date regarding the tax return W stole from our joint account has been delayed. The judge is going out of town and rescheduled it for Oct. 10th.

Of course that doesn't stop W from accusing me of dragging this D out because I won't go into a marital settlement right now. With the court date on the tax return money she took, I'd rather wait to see what the judge has to say about all this, and so would my lawyers. Especially since the judge ruled initially in my favor and ordered both of us to fill out financial affidavits as a result of her stealing the money.

The financial affidavits were supposed to be swapped between both parties on July 12th. We sent mine to W's lawyer on July 14th. We didn't receive theirs until August 12th. Her financial affidavit looks thrown together like all the other litigation her L has created, and the affidavit is full of inaccuracies. I made sure my affidavit was accurate right down to the cent, and I have all the paperwork to verify any of it. I can only hope the judge will recognize this.

MLC is a rollercoaster. I see W trying to improve things with the kids while she fails elsewhere with them. She's showering them with sweets on an almost daily basis, but still going Monster on them and spewing in a heartbeat when it comes to housecleaning. This is what her mother was like, obsessed over appearances and making sure the house is immaculate at all times.

W is trying to be more affectionate with the boys, but she's still not interested in them. Birthdays for our older and youngest came and went, and she did a lot to bake sweets, and make decorations. She made an elaborate 2 tier chocolate cake for S3's birthday. When it came time to sing happy birthday to S3, she didn't bother to get up from the bed. She just laid there watching some show on her phone.

Is there some link between MLC and nostalgia (or days gone by)? W has been talking incessantly with people about grade school or high school. Making tallies of who's-doing-what-now and how people seem now on Facebook compared to who they were in childhood. A couple of weeks ago Real Friend #1 was visiting and W was sharing all these photos off her phone from grade school and doing a lot of "Remember When" and "Remember Them" discussing. Real Friend #1 couldn't match her enthusiasm.

I am getting busier at the new job and I am being kind of cautious because I know there are lots of rules in place and I don't want to step on anyone else's toes. I am working and following the rules but treading lightly. It will be about 2 months since I've joined. I'm going to be the new guy for a while.

I am feeling very beat up. I am exhausted. I am only getting 6 hours of sleep a night these days. W sleeps in with the kids until God Knows When because they're on summer break. I am up til midnight trying to calm them down and get them to sleep, but they are jumping off the walls because they've slept in. I'm doing it alone because W is already gone by 9 pm or sooner to hit the gym or go someplace with her MLC friends.

My L sent her L my proposal for child custody arrangement. I asked to have the kids every other weekend (Friday night to Sunday night) and to see them every Tuesday and Thursday from 6 PM until 8:30 PM. This is a standard variation on custody arrangements in Illinois.

My L sent the arrangement on a Monday morning. W came to me that evening to ask if we could discuss the arrangement.

She sounded very tired and a little monotone, and it's the closest that's sounded friendly from her in a very long time. She asked "You don't want the kids to spend the night with you on Tuesday and Thursday?"

I paused. Part of my mirror work is trying not to defend myself so much, and being okay with not having all the answers right away. I would digest this question later, but for the moment I said - "I don't know what my living arrangement is going to be like."

She asked "Have you started looking for a place yet?" but didn't wait for an answer. She just started rambling about spending time with the kids. I mentioned that I'm due at the office the exact same time the boys start school. She suggested I bring them home in the morning. I just repeated that I didn't know what my living situation would be like.

I want to be with my children as much as possible, but I don't know what kind of situation I will be in. I don't know how much work this will be.

OK - It's mind reading on my part, but I've been warning myself to expect W to backslide on her commitment to whatever custody agreement we arrived at. I see what condition W is in, and I don't think she can handle taking care of the boys for any sustained period of time. She is physically absent for part of each day, and when she's here, she is never fully engaged in the boys, except when Monster is angry at them for messing the house.

I wasn't expecting her to backslide on the actual arrangement itself. She's asking me to keep them 50% of the time while she still keeps 32% of my income in child support.

[bttrfly]

I wasn't expecting her to backslide on the actual arrangement itself. She's asking me to keep them 50% of the time while she still keeps 32% of my income in child support.

Hi Brubeck
TBH, this doesn't surprise me. The MLCr has an idea of how the D is going to go and what's going to happen and is frequently surprised when we don't follow their script/pre-conceived notion.

I had several examples of that during our divorce mediation. They all left me scratching my head.

It seems from what I've read and what I've experienced that they think they're going to have everything go their way and are often surprised when it doesn't.

I know you're tired. I know you're beat up. I'm sorry this is happening and you can't get a decent night's sleep. It won't always be this way. Hang in there. You're going through the worst of it right now.

xoxoxoxo {{{{{Brubeck}}}}}

[Gordie]

Brubeck,

I don't get it. Your w wants the money but not the responsibility. If you can manage your work to get more time with your kids, then do it.

[job]

New Thread:

Chasing A Full Night's Sleep