Maybell 40

[Vanilla]

Maybell and Underdog

My views on forgiveness are a little different.

Somethings are unforgiveable and need not be forgiven. Ever. However letting go of resentment and the need for revenge to me is very releasing.

I aim for detachment and will be there when I have no thoughts of The Giggalo at all. Not even that he rots in hell for all of eternity. A lying cheating scum bag with an itchy nether and palm doesn't deserve forgiveness and he hasn't asked. He behaves as if he is entitled still to treat me and mine as he will. Also long as this continues then NC is my standard response. The more I do NC the more detached I am. Interaction of any kind sets me offor and triggers my PTSD.

My goodness I believe in retribution and Damnation especially for those who need a good dose of it. And it isn't my job to give that retribution either, I know that will happen unless he asks his higher power. I hope he does.

In twelve steps, to obtain forgiven essential we ask for it and we atone. Forgiveness is between ourselves and our higher power. It isn't my job to forgive the unforgivable by the remorseless.

A book that changed my mind on forgiveness is by Jeanne Safer.

I think we should cease to struggle to forgive, let it come in its time and when we are ready.

That's my thoughts.

V

[Maybell]

Well, Vanilla... I really don't want to feel like that anymore.

I've been feeling a lot of heaviness on my heart and I can't quite pin down what it's from. I'm sad. Maybe the thing with Mr. Fantastic and my D13 over the weekend hurt me more than I'm willing to admit.

And My Guy was telling me more about his ex. It blows my mind. If I'd had the marriage they had I'd still be married. (I think). They did so many wonderful things together and they still spend time together. Which grates on me but everyone says how much that says about his character so I'm trying to get my heart around it.

I can't think of a single untainted memory of Mr. Fantastic. Every single thing that I thought was a happy moment is now poisoned with how the story turned out, and little things that seemed like "just how he was" at the time are now huge and sinister red flags in my memory. It makes it hard to relax with My Guy -- I feel like I'm constantly watching for red flags.

I lost an uncle in the spring. A great uncle about ten days ago. A third uncle is terminally ill and not expected to live past the holidays. I feel sad and alone. My FOO is scattered and no support to me, the family I made with Mr. Fantastic is broken, whatever it is I'm building with My Guy isn't well enough defined for me to be willing to lean too hard on him.

My Guy wants me to travel with him over the Thanksgiving holiday and I don't have the kids so I'm willing to. My parents want me to travel to the Midwest to say goodbye to the terminally ill uncle and participate in my mom's extended family's holiday celebrations. My parents spoke so rudely of this uncle my whole life, calling him names behind his back and criticizing how he acted, choices he made, whatever. Now suddenly he's dying and they're going to tell me how I should go and weep by his bedside. On my own account, I am sorry, He's WAY too young to be dying, and while it's true that he didn't always make awesome choices, it's also true that he did no worse than anyone else would have in his situation, and I can't see that he did any particular harm in his life. He leaves behind a very, very close knit family... Which is more, I think, than my parents can say. One of his daughters had a baby when she was seventeen, and that baby has grown up to be a 22 year old special education teacher, and my cousin is still married to the baby's father. Something went right there. Things went wrong, too with the other daughter, but just the same...

I'm rambling. This post was supposed to be about forgiveness.

Here's what I want, Vanilla. I can't go total NC with Mr. Fantastic, we have three kids together. I'm going to have to figure out how to heal myself without that tool. But I can't keep letting myself get twisted in knots on his account. He's so far beneath my energy. I have much bigger fish to fry. I need my energy and my strength for the things that are worth it.

I think I do need to start thinking about forgiving my parents for being who they are. They hurt my heart. But I can't live in anger with them either. I don't know the first step so the cd's Betsey suggested are probably what I should do. I don't want to live with all this heaviness and fear any more. I would rather bequeath some other legacy to my kids.

[Vanilla]

Hmmmmmm

Not forgiving doesn't mean holding on to anger or revenge or bitterness.

Forgiving is knowing it's ok if you can and no forcing forgiveness.

To me it's indifference, complete neutrality. I have no burden to forgive that's not my job, I don't have to fake it or push it or feel guilty or shame that I can't. No memes or cute sayings can push my buttons. None.

I simply say that's not my job. Just as much as curing a fatal disease in another is not my job, not my sandpit, not my circus or my monkeys. Forgiveness for the Giggalo is not my business unless he asks for forgiveness.

I am detached from the need to forgive or to not forgive.

My view on NC is controversial too, because NC is different in practice to the description. I still deal with the business I need to deal with the Giggalo and his faux L. I still do my stuff that is admin. Other than that no texts, emails, calls, vieying of FB etc, all his stuff is gone, I don't wear his ring. Other than here and to other DBs I dont talk about him initiate chat or comment. I deal with legall with L. I reduce triggers, I am ruthless in cutting contact. He is blocked every which way I can manage. I have had to research his FB page to provery he is in Italy with RIT, I do so quite mercilessly so he doesn't know for Intel. NC is a state of mind and that includes excluding him from influencing me.

Perhaps my lack of anger serves me well now.

You can do NC I think even in the midst of a high conflicted D. As I don't have children then I can't advise on the interactions in D. In my book admin is no breach of NC.

Lack of Forgiveness and NC sounds troubled and angry. For me it is the opposite it is peace harmony and delight.

It is detachment and where I want to be indifference.

V

[Vanilla]

My condolences on the loss of your uncle too. No matter he was young to leave his children and grandchildren.

V

[Underdog]

Quick before I head to the car dealership...

The tapes aren't about forgiveness per se. They are about transcending anger. And I did say that I didn't mean forgiving your XH or anyone. Much of what I discovered to be the root of my own anger was stuff that was unresolved from my past and got in the way of my present. It was liberating to understand.

And for the record, I don't offer forgiveness as a blank check. Forgiveness is not forgetting. It's merely an effort to not let it get in the way.

I interpreted this because MB said she was sick of feeling the heaviness in her heart. What does she have to lose? Even if she only gets one thing out of 4 CDs, it's more than worth the $35 to get stuff to chew on.

There are certain events in my past where there will never be absolution - 1) maybe because the offender doesn't ask for forgiveness or 2) the events were too painful and deep to get to that point or 3) at this point in my life, absolution falls in God's hands. But by "forgiving" the event, I give myself permission to absolve myself for any part I played in the process and give myself permission to heal the wound and move forward. I hope that makes sense.

I think the word I'd much rather use is to accept. Accept people for who they are, but that might have to be with distance and detachment (in the case of MB's parents). They aren't going to change, so the only thing she can do is create and enforce boundaries and learn not to take *their* issues personally. I truly think their issues are about their unhealed wounds from the past and not about MB at all... though how they go about dealing with their foibles and fears undoubtedly hurts her a great deal. It's a tight rope.

For the record, when I listened to the discussions, I had a few "aha" moments. It forced me to see some people as they really are instead of how I wanted them to be. It actually helped me catapult to a higher place. I realized that much of their motivations were coping mechanisms from childhood wounds that were almost animalistic protections: the kinds where wounded animals lash out at others as a smoke screen to prevent them from getting hurt (or killed) further. Without skills to choose differently, it's difficult to heal those wounds and accept our humanity.

MB, my XH and I are both people whose periodic significant others have problems with how we conduct ourselves. It's still an issue from time to time. I can only tell you what we tell them: we're not getting back together and just because we are civil to each other and friendly most of the time doesn't mean we were destined to be married to each other. I think you don't have any or many role models here, which might be why you are having difficulty getting your heart wrapped around it. I will reiterate what others tell you: this man knows how to treat someone who has hurt him; the same is true for his XW. It just shows their evolution as parents. That's not to say you are not as evolved as he is! It's just that their R isn't about the tension. They focus on the kids and issues that surround them.

Let's steer clear of your insecurities for now. Go get the CDs and process some of that crap that's not sitting well with you. I'm not saying this is the be all to end all. But it's a start. And the presenters are human and not at all speaking down to the audience. I appreciated the humility more than I can put into words. I have periodic issues with my mom as well... you are not alone. Being hurt is okay. You just need to process the hurt appropriately.

Hugs, sister!

Betsey

[Maybell]

Betsey, they don't have kids, but they are in frequent contact and spend a fair amount of time together.

[Maybell]

Today would have been my 19th wedding anniversary. Have been exchanging emails with Mr. Fantastic all day about logistics like transferring the IRA, sharing kids over the holidays, and him changing the weekday schedule AGAIN. Not once has either of us observed the day to one another. Nor have we since he moved out.

Today I cried for the first time in many months. My FB memories are all about things like how excited I was to marry him, how adventurous our life together had been, and he had posted our engagement picture four years ago. I saw that picture and all I could think was, he was already cheating on me when he posted that. What a hypocrite.

I'm so well rid of him. But I'm still sad for how the story turned out.

[SunnyB]

(((MB)))

I know this is a tough day for you. I'm sorry. No words of wisdom, no advice, my experiences are different. So I'll just say I'm thinking of you today.

[Maybell]

I am so tired I want to throw up. I just want to stop everything and have fun with my kids. My D13 is in full hateful mode again and I don't know how to manage the near-constant disrespect. My work is constant stress. I'm working 60+ hours a week and my family life is coming apart. I have no recovery time. I'm so tired, a weekend isn't enough anymore to refresh me because I just use it to catch up on the home stuff that's behind. I get almost no exercise and not nearly enough sleep and next to no relaxation and I've put on 15 pounds.

I don't see how I can live like this for the next ten years. But I don't know how else to get to a place where I will be self-supporting when the support is gone. I am so tired. So little of what I used to do to refresh myself is available to me. I had hoped to go to a spa-like thing on Friday evening but my director put another appointment on my calendar late that afternoon so that used up the time I had hoped to set aside for that. I'm spending basically all day at the kids' karate tournament even though it's their dad's weekend with him.

I am so tired. SO TIRED. I don't know how to cope right now.

[Zues126]

Hey MB. I totally get it. There is a reason it takes two people to create a child. Raising a family really isn't a one person job. Cost of living is so high it practically takes two incomes to pay the bills, and being tied to a 60 hour gig is essentially doing just that. And even if XH does some things for the kids, you often have to duplicate those efforts anyway. Not like if he goes grocery shopping on Monday you don't still have to. All in all, too much needing to get done every day, anything but top priorities starting to slide, then they become top priorities soon enough and pile on, then the trying to keep a grip on everything falling apart around you, until one day you look around and wonder how your life became so frazzled you don't recognize yourself and can't remember what it means to have a spring in your step or be excited for something on the calendar.

I am through 90% of that now, so let me share some hope with you. When things are bad it's easy to extrapolate that out, and it can add to our feelings of being overwhelmed. I knew when I was going through all of this crap some things would change: I would move closer to the kids' school, my job would get easier one way or another, the D would be finalized. This didn't really change how I felt during the time (and it seemed like 10 years!) and I felt like I was tricking myself after a while telling myself it would get easier (like saying 'we'll eat soon' to someone dying of hunger) but I kept faith. Not even faith...just logical reasoning that something had to give. Well, I am not closer to their school, but work is easier, D is finalized, and I got the unexpected surprise of a lifetime with my mom moving in with me to offer some support.

Is there anything that might give on your side? Any upcoming changes that might make a shift? If not, and you are fighting to hang on with no possible relief in sight, you might have to make some hard decisions about where to give. We all know stories of single mothers that sacrificed everything and worked multiple jobs to support their kids without a moment's rest for themselves in ten years. I won't pretend that it doesn't happen. And there's a right time and place to make severe sacrifices. But long term I think you need to make sure you have something on the horizon to hang on for, something that could take pressure off your plate.

I know things are tough financially and we don't always get to just walk out on a job willy nilly. I will say I hate that salary employees get worked 60 hours a week. This is not acceptable. And I am PISSED OFF that your director would allow this knowing the impact it makes in your world. Seriously...this workaholic culture is not right. If you can't run your business without working your employees off the clock to their breaking point, you can't run your business. Grr. I don't want to hold people back that want to work 60 hours, and if those people get paid more or have access to higher level executive careers, hey, good for them. But for those of us that didn't sign up to sell our souls, please leave them in our still beating body for crying out loud.

OK, I'm working myself up, time to cool myself down. Sorry things are tough MB. I wish we could form a support group post D where we could actually help each other out. I'd love to come do a few loads of laundry for you this weekend. Maybe we should all move next to Sunny?