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#2701976 09/04/16 06:26 PM
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Previous thread:

A WW? (3)

Quick rundown of my situation:
- M11, T13 w/ a D9
- BD on 5/31/16
- Find out about EA with OM on 6/22/16. Had been ongoing since 5/13/16
- Confront W on 6/30/16 about her plans to visit OM over 4th of July weekend
- W goes anyway on 7/3/16 for PA and I leave MBR that night
- W comes back and we have talk on 7/7 about Ls
- W retains L early August
- I have met with 2 Ls so far and another in 2 days
- "Family" beach trip for a week Aug 6, multiple MR talks
- W leaves for an anniversary party for friends. Turns out it's for another PA with OM at the same lake
- confront W on it and she lies, lies, lies. I move back into Mbr
- W begins doing and saying odd things after blowup. Mentions possibility of cancer and writes a long letter blaming me for all our issues
- W and I sit down and chat custody of D. A lot of spew and W wants to push ahead with Ls

Seeing W for her lies and deceit of the past 3 months. I've set a goal for myself to not react to Ws behavior as she appears to be trying to trap me into confrontation. I've made it clear to her that she can't leave our home and take D with her. Also, I've told her that I think her choice on divorce is horrible and I won't proactively help her push it. I will however, not keep her from leaving if she pushes things that way herself. Not willing for my D to be exposed solely to W a majority of the time.

For me though, with the help of a multitude of folks on here, I'm working through building my relationship with D9 to be stronger. I'm also re-tooling myself to be more like the man I was pre M. Standing up for myself and D in the face of some controlling behavior from W and refusing to be a doormat. A lot of GAL and some 180s but all for the sake of D and me.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2701978 09/04/16 07:05 PM
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Ok, another thread. Wheeeee.....

So, hit the gym this evening while W took D and friend to dinner for their sleepover. Came back and cooked my dinner of teriyaki salmon and rice. It was absolutely delicious.

However, W and D thought it smelled horrendous. They mention that as they leave to get ice cream. (I swear we are not a super unhealthy family!). I clean up pretty thoroughly and then eat.

I felt bad bc I laughed when D and W were complaining about the smell. I send W a message:

Me: I didn't realize the smell as bad. Could you please tell her I didn't mean to laugh when she complained about it. I'd assumed she was being silly.

W: it's probably more sincere if you tell her yourself when she gets home. Next time can you please use the grill.

They get home and I tell D I didn't mean to laugh when she brought up the smell. W instantly starts to break in saying "what did you expect to happen..." I ignore her and tell D I'm sorry I laughed and I had thought she was just being silly.

D and friend go upstairs to play and W starts ripping the grill of the stove and cleaning the counters, stove, floor, etc. it's possible that I missed something, but not to the degree she's acting. I go over and tell her if there's that large of a mess left I'm happy to clean it up. She looks at me with daggers and says she's already almost done and how could I not know this would make such a huge mess. I leave her to it.

She then goes into the laundry room and shuts the door. I go to the laundry room to tell her thank you for cleaning up the remaining mess. I open the door expecting her to be crying but shes just standing there looking in the other direction. Not sure if she was angry, frustrated, etc but it was weird. It was almost emotionless. She turns and looks at me and asks me to leave. I tell her I'd like to say something and she asks me to leave.

So I leave and she stays in there another 5 minutes. Then she goes upstairs and stays up there 10 minutes. So now I'm downstairs on the couch typing this. She is avoiding me and thumping around. I feel bad if there was a mess I didn't see, but I think she's making a huge deal out of a small situation. She's an OCD neat freak so this stuff bugs her immensely and is one of the large issues we have.

I won't apologize to her for this. I'm trying to be better at when to give apologies. I'm thinking its best to give her space and call it a night. Not freaking out over stuff like this anymore though it does make me feel bad inside. If she wants to get divorced because of small messes and "not calling the yard guy" (another gem from last night) then there's nothing I can do to stop this crazy train. I'll shake it off and live to fight another day.

This whole situation has such a way of messing with my mind. Felt in control last night. This mess thing initially made me feel out of control, but I'm able to realize and rebalance now. Didn't have that skill set a couple months ago.

W just sat down on couch and I told her thank you for getting the mess. No response.

Planning to cut a check to retain my L on tuesday so I can respond to the S agreement her Ls will be working on. Should be a good hole for us to chuck money into. I'd love to see her explain that to D one day.

On that note, I need to figure out how best to talk to D about this with W next week. W made it a point today for the 3 of us to sit down and explain to D what was happening with her bestfriends parents who told us yesterday they are separating. W made it sound like no big deal and D should just help her friend if she needed it. W said its normal and everything will be ok for the friend. I told D that her friend would probably be pretty sad/confused and if she gets angry with D then D shouldn't think she's doing something wrong. Also, I said D should try to help her feel better and have fun if she can. W says that Ds friend took it very well and doesn't care that her parents are separating.

I put all that there bc you can see what I'm up against in telling D about all this. W has it in her brain that everything will be fine. Not sure it's best to sugarcoat this for D. Our interaction on friends situation was far from ideal though. I don't want that disjointed of an effort when we tell D. Need to think this through more.

The H in the situation above wants to go out this week to shoot pool. I'll probably go, but I'm not sure how I'll be able to handle it. He talks to my W a lot about all this stuff (he's a SAHD) and I'm hesitant to give advice for fear he relays everything back to my W. I should go though to give him support. I know how hard it must be for him. I do wonder if W has shared what we are going through. If he wants to talk about that I'll just tell him I don't want to discuss it.

I just asked W if it was his decision to split. She harshly said back "what difference does it make?" I told her it makes a difference with how you help console the person. She then goes back into her phone. I'm thinking I need to stop engaging my W at all now. She says us not conversing is me going back to my old ways, but there seems to be no way I win right now. Having her spew at me is more negative than not having interaction I guess.

Going to try to carry over the feeling from last nights conversation but it's proving difficult today. Two steps forward, one step back. W sure has a way of putting a damper on things. Note to self, not fully out of her sphere of influence yet but getting closer. Amazing how much of a game this is.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702021 09/05/16 06:46 AM
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lt0402 - over on the MLC forum thanks to a reference by CT1118 I found the thread of someone called AmyC who had gone through a MLC. I'm not saying that is what your W is dealing with but your comment about your W just standing there reminded of this quote

Originally Posted By: AmyC

And for the record, I wasn't overly emotional or bitchy, although there were certainly times...
My husband said it best when he looked at me one day from across the kitchen and said "You're as cold as ice".

To this day, I remember that moment.

I'd become the tinman.

I'm looking at this from the outside so may not be right here but I think your W's anger and silences should be a flashing danger sign that you shouldn't ignore. She may have just been pushed over the edge by teriyaki salmon.

I think you had good intentions with thanking her but her anger was way beyond anything that could be dealt with by words.

What was the root cause of all of this? Well - I'm not a mind-reader wink but she may have been thinking that you were being rude and thoughtless. Her cleaning was less about the cleaning and more believing that yet one more straw was being heaped onto an already over-loaded camel.

Tread carefully.

Just my 2 cents - I could be completely wrong here.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
AndrewP #2702028 09/05/16 07:49 AM
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For me I wouldn't offer any comments supporting the friends S unless the reason is due to truly abusive behavior. Instead I would steer it back to fixing the M, just as you want. This shows consistency of thought and actual caring your their child's future. Who cares if it gets back to your W. In fact it would be good that it did. You can show you really believe in fixing the M and are changing for the better without saying a word to W. Stand up for M, yours and theirs, it helps your cause.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
mvgfwd2 #2702033 09/05/16 08:42 AM
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Agree AP. W would have viewed me leaving a mess as just more of the same from me. Ws definition of a mess is much different than the regular worlds though. Regardless, it was not my intention for her to clean up for me and hence the thank you. I'm starting to wonder if there isn't some influence from a MLC here as well. W keeps talking about her 40th bday as a massive deal and having all this "fixed" and me gone by then. W has been combative this morning as well, in front of both D and her friend. Rationally and calmly sticking up for myself but it's having an affect on D. Need to figure out how to force her to have these away from D.

MV, I'm in complete agreement. My thoughts were more around sharing details on what I'm doing to try to save my M when he's so talkative with my W. I'm 100% there to help support him in saving his M if that's what he's pushing for. I've got a lot of great advice for him (thanks to all of you) and I'm happy to share that with him bc it's the right thing to do. I don't care if that gets back to my W. I'm going to catch up with him this Friday for a bit to play some pool. Feel horrible for the guy.

With telling my D I can see that devolving into my W pushing that it's no big deal and my pushing that D needs to support her friend. Effectively it becomes a proxy war for our battle we have going on with our opposing views on our own divorce. I'd like to avoid that at all costs, but W seems to already be leveraging it. I don't want D stuck on the middle of this and ever since you all pointed out I was doing this I've been very careful to frame almost everything as W and I. W, however, leverages D heavily in our discussions as W and D vs me. Luckily I know this isn't the case and I don't take that bait anymore.

Thanks all for the advice and thoughts!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702192 09/06/16 06:29 AM
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Did a lot of thinking yesterday, as W and D did lunch and painted pottery for about 4.5 hours. They did this w/ Ds best friend and the mom who is separating from her H. I'm very concerned about what W said to D as they were driving to and from this, but can't control that.

Thought a lot about why W has been so combative after our custody talk. She kept saying that she's doing this for our D and not for her. Part of that was she doesn't want D to be in such a toxic environment w/ us arguing all the time. W seems to be working to keep that perception going by poking at me. I need to not fall for her bait and walk away when she gets heated with me. D was visibly hurt when W jumped on me yesterday. I may speak to W about this, but am unsure it helps anything. Probably best to make my point by not engaging going forward.

Now that D is back in school (first day today), I want to get plugged into helping her w/ her homework. W has typically done this, as I've worked somewhat long hours. Since this all started, I've made a better balance of work and home so I think this is the next step to getting more involved w/ D. W will spew on this and fight, as she thinks she's the only one who can help on homework, but I'll push through that.

I think I've lost some focus on pushing back on W to do Ds meals and meds too. We've fallen a bit back into the old routine we had for that stuff. Going to discuss a schedule with her so that we are both doing this on a rotational basis. I've got all that ingrained, but would like to have the practice there.

Also, I'm not proactively pushing this D through, but there are some things that need to get done on the house prior to us selling. We need to get some painting done and have some drywall cracks repaired. I'll probably go ahead and get this lined up as it needs to get done regardless. W will also have an opinion on this, but i'll push through that as well.

I'm also realizing that Ws idea of custody w/ D sleeping at her residence every night allows her to continue to control D and me. She says I can have as much time w/ D at her place after work as I want. So long as we are at her place w/ her, W continues to be able to control what we do. I definitely can't allow her to continue being as controlling as she is. D and I need a chunk of time away from her both our sanity and well being.

Started a log last week of the time D and I spend together. Who knows if i'll need it, but I'm moving forward w/ the assumption W is doing something similar. No idea if she is, but it was a good suggestion previously by fade I believe.

I'm getting better w/ the thought that things probably won't work out w/ W and I. The more I view my W as someone who is lost and flailing about for definition/meaning in her life, the more it helps in dealing w/ this. AndrewP's thoughts around having compassion for her while she struggles were spot on. I know I can't control her actions and I've stopped trying. I won't be proactive on the divorce process, but I won't keep her from moving things forward. I still feel some heaviness from the PA part of this, but those tend to be fleeting feelings.

I feel more in control of me than I have in a while. My health is great as I'm exercising 2x a day (running in the morning, weights in the afternoon). My relationship w/ my D is much better than it had been and gets better every day. My risk to the relationship w/ my D is from my W who attempts to undercut it. I'm aware of this and am being proactive in defending against this where appropriate.

Next on my list of things to do is to retail my L today or tomorrow in response to W starting work on S agreement. Also, W wants to tell D about situation this weekend. I'm going to push back and say to wait until next weekend to get D through school, as well as be able to chat w/ IC next Tuesday on it. I'm debating inviting W to meet w/ IC w/ me about how best to tell D. Unsure if this is a good idea or not, but it would be w/ no intention of discussing anything else.

My current goals are:

1) Continue building my relationship w/ D
2) Continue to work on exercise bc of how helpful it's been
3) At least 2 days a week, be there to do homework w/ D
4) At least 3 days a week, do meals for D
5) At least 4 days a week, do meds for D
6) At least one GAL activity per week that doesn't involve exercise
7) Continue down the RSG path of learning how to cook. Probably no more teriyaki salmon for the time being!

In a more stable place than I have been. I know there will be further road bumps, but I'm building up the skills to handle them. Interested to see what the future holds for my D and myself. I want to be the best dad for her that I can be. I'm not there yet, but I know I'm moving in the right direction. No one can convince me otherwise.

Appreciate everyone's support here!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702217 09/06/16 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
Need to figure out how to force her to have these away from D.


You arent going to 'force' her to do anything.

What are your boundaries? If she berates you in front of D, how do you react?

MoveFrwd #2702232 09/06/16 09:15 AM
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Good point darknes, poor choice of wording on my part but I'm also a little worked up on that. My boundary is that anytime she berates me in front of my D I tell her to please don't speak to me like that. If she continues then I get up and leave the situation.

Very similar to how we have disciplined D in the past. Give her a warning for her behavior and explain the consequences for doing it again. If she does it again we punish her.

Sad that I'm at the point of having to do this to my W.

Thanks Darknes!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702242 09/06/16 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
Need to figure out how to force her to have these away from D.

Very similar to how we have disciplined D in the past.

If she does it again we punish her.


I understand that your wording may not be the best, but your words here come across to me as controlling. You are implying that you walking away is "punishing" to your W. But that isnt the point of a boundary - the point is to protect you/D from having this kind of conversation in front of your daughter, right?

So what can you do to change your mindset from focusing on W's reaction to focusing on your action?

lt0402 #2702244 09/06/16 09:58 AM
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Well, more drama here. Just got this from my W:

W: "You should be more careful using Phone Rescue to snoop through my iphone/ipad. You know there's nothing there and it's not legal to use it on my stuff, right?"

Me: "?"

W: "The phone rescue app you downloaded. It's used to log into people's phones. You left a trail. Stop"

Me: "On our PC? I used it to get deleted images off my iphone. I have no access to your pword or phone. I told you how I saw your FB stuff. I haven't touched your iphone. Stop. I've told you I haven't been on your FB since Jun and that's when I saw those msgs on Ds ipad. I have not been on your iphone. I've also explained I'm not snooping on you anymore. It's your life and they are your choices. I'm only concnered w/ how those choices impact others besides you."

So it seems like W is in a very paranoid place. I probably should not have responded, but felt like I needed to. Apparently she thinks I'm actively surveiling her like some private detective from a movie.

Guess this goes to show the detrimental affect any sort of snooping can have. This thing is getting so ridiculous it'd be laughable if I wasn't neck deep in it.

The funniest thing is she doesn't realize I truly don't care what she does at this point w/ her life. I'm being honest w/ her that all I care about is how her choices are impacting D and I. With each of these new "encounters" with her, I find myself caring less and less, which seems like both a good and a sad thing.

Honestly, she seems to be manufacturing issues now which is somewhat of a stretch. I guess I let her stew in this, though I may show her how her FB logs in automatically on Ds ipad. Maybe I don't. I don't know that I even care enough at this point what she thinks.

Never a dull moment!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
MoveFrwd #2702248 09/06/16 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: darknes
Originally Posted By: lt0402
Need to figure out how to force her to have these away from D.

Very similar to how we have disciplined D in the past.

If she does it again we punish her.


I understand that your wording may not be the best, but your words here come across to me as controlling. You are implying that you walking away is "punishing" to your W. But that isnt the point of a boundary - the point is to protect you/D from having this kind of conversation in front of your daughter, right?

So what can you do to change your mindset from focusing on W's reaction to focusing on your action?


I see what you're saying Darknes. Yeah, it does seem aggressive and controlling.

I have two goals in those situations. First, I want to remove that immediate stressor from my D. Second, I want to show W that she cannot disrespect me like that.

Maybe the best approach if W starts acting out in those situations is dependent upon what D and I are doing.

1) If D and I are actively playing together, I could politely say that D and I are going to leave the situation and go play elsewhere.

2) If D and I are not actively playing together, I get up and leave the situation, telling W we can discuss later when we are less emotional.

Curious to get your thoughts around this? I'd see some pushback from W on #1 I think, but it's manageable. Appreciated Darknes!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702249 09/06/16 10:11 AM
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I like the "it's not legal" thing. Truly a laugher!


Me: 35 W: 32
S: 4
T: 6 M: 4
Physical Separation official: 5/21
Currently: DR/DBing, Focusing on me and son

Cheating on a good person is like throwing away a diamond and picking up a rock.
RSG #2702252 09/06/16 10:17 AM
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Yeah, she said something similar late last week as well. I'm not even letting it leak into my consciousness at this point. That message got me worked up for a couple minutes, but got back to level and then responded.

It's sad, but I'm truly weighing us selling the house this once the S agreement is in place. I think that's the easy way out for me though. I honestly don't want to lose the time w/ my D that the few extra months gives me. I think I can manage the spew enough to get that extra time in.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702253 09/06/16 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
I have two goals in those situations. Second, I want to show W that she cannot disrespect me like that.

I think you are still a little bit backwards.

I want to show W that she cannot disrespect me I will not be disrespected like that.

Can you see the difference?

Originally Posted By: lt0402
1) If D and I are actively playing together, I could politely say that D and I are going to leave the situation and go play elsewhere.

2) If D and I are not actively playing together, I get up and leave the situation, telling W we can discuss later when we are less emotional.

I would recommend to not engage when D is around. Just say that you can discuss these things later. If she refuses then I'd offer D something else to do - try not to focus the actions on W.

"I am playing with D right now. I would rather we discuss this later."

I dont think you should focus as much on hammering her for disrespecting you or standing your ground in front of D. Just my opinion though.

lt0402 #2702254 09/06/16 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402

Me: "On our PC? I used it to get deleted images off my iphone. I have no access to your pword or phone. I told you how I saw your FB stuff. I haven't touched your iphone. Stop. I've told you I haven't been on your FB since Jun and that's when I saw those msgs on Ds ipad. I have not been on your iphone. I've also explained I'm not snooping on you anymore. It's your life and they are your choices. I'm only concnered w/ how those choices impact others besides you."


Just curious as to why you needed to say any of the bolded?

MoveFrwd #2702314 09/06/16 01:30 PM
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W just sent me this msg:

W: "Do you still want to make us a counseling apt? Just do it."

Unsure what to make of it. Not sure if this is constructive or not. Interested in thoughts around this, seems to have come out of nowhere. Seems passive-aggressive.

Darknes, I can see that. Maybe I've got some pent up aggression towards W right now. It seems like my brain is still wrapped around how to respond and defend from her, as opposed to how I set my own personal boundary, regardless of who it is violating it.

I don't disagree w/ your opinion on how to address her. I've had a tough time discerning how to handle when she just keeps coming at me w/o me hammering back to some degree. The onslaught makes me fairly defensive, so I'm trying to limit that response. I think the above helps me a ton. I like the suggestion of "I'm playing w/ D right now. I would rather we discuss this later."

I want to extricate any sort of overly firm response from how I approach it. finding it difficult at times, but slowly going from super firm to, hopefully, a good blend of fair but firm. I think a more even keeled response from me would go a long ways towards alleviating some of the stress on D in those situations.

On the bolded part, I know it was too much response. She's kind of hinted that I'm spying on her for a little bit now. I really wanted to get across the last 2 sentences of the message, but felt I had to put to rest what she's been implying w/ the rest. Too firm of an approach on the above, or I should have solely explained why I had that program on the pc?


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702366 09/06/16 04:57 PM
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At home. Just had dinner. W is more talkative with both D and I but still tension.

Not sure what to make of her saying to make a MC appointment earlier.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702488 09/07/16 06:16 AM
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Have you read the solo partner? I just started but it seems like it has some tips on how to try and diffuse arguments / situations like yours. (I have little to no interaction with W, so kind of hard for me). I think its kind of "good" she's so paranoid, though it was a little elaborate response, let her marinade in her paranoid crazy thoughts.

I feel as though I've read the whole MC counseling in your thread...it's to get some sort of direction for how to tell D correct? - Because of that, I say do it. She said do it, so do it. It'll be helpful I'm sure.


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
lt0402 #2702494 09/07/16 06:23 AM
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No mention of it last night from W. She was in a better and more talkative mood w/ D and myself, but still was edgy at times, though not as bad. Sent her back a message this morning saying "An appointment for marriage counseling?". Have not heard a response.

Really odd, and I don't think it's a good sign. I'm afraid she's looking to check it off as having tried to fix this, when she's not willing to put actual effort into our MR. I'm thinking I need to have a discussion with her about what exactly MC means to me. It means we both want this MR to work, we are both willing to put in the hard work necessary for it to work, and we both know there will be ups and downs but we'll need to push through them.

Regardless, going to put some thought into this today. I'm torn on a response here.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702501 09/07/16 06:37 AM
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OH, maybe I'm just crazy and misunderstood...so she brought up MC out of left field? In that case I'd be torn too. You're right to clarify what that means. No miscommunications, no misconceptions just laying it all out there.

I thought It was strictly to discuss ways to tell D9 about separation / D.

Could it also be a temp check? never a dull moment with you lt0402 hang in there!


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
cheesyt #2702513 09/07/16 06:55 AM
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She responded with:

W: "Why are you asking like you Dont know what I'm talking about? Yes. Didn't you say that was what you need?"

She's still aggressive in her responses. I've told her throughout this thing that the only way we could resets lush our M would be if we did MC. Without that we may as well keep down the path we are going down. I'm unwilling to go back to the M we had been in.

That said, I'm not sure why the sudden pivot on her part. Caught me off balance and was completely unexpected. 3 days ago she was telling me there's 0% chance she'd be married to me on her 40th bday.

Very odd and has my hairs standing up


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702538 09/07/16 08:47 AM
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Whoa -- that's a development, for sure. Just not sure what it means. It doesn't read like a WW having second thoughts and wanting to go to MC to try to build a new relationship. Might be some need to check the box and be able to tell herself and D that she "tried".

Still, it has to be so tantalizing to take her up on it. I'd be doing cartwheels if my W mentioned MC.

Maybe tell her, yes, "I need" MC, but only as a truly mutual tool the two of you would use to try to rebuild your relationship? Who knows. Hopefully a vet weighs in. Hang in there, Man -- the rollercoaster never stops in your world!


Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
lt0402 #2702541 09/07/16 08:49 AM
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Looks like you are making good progress, and your attitude seems much stronger.

Good discussion on the difference between control and boundaries. Nothing riles up a WW more than them thinking you are trying to control them.

As for MC, I wouldnt bother. As long as she is having an affair, it will just blow up in your face. My guess is that this is her way to say 'i offered to do counseling' or 'he refused to do counseling'. What you can do is find someone who specializes in divorce or mediation and meet to discuss separation issues. But dont expect to have any sort of productive relationship discussion when she still wants out.

You said your WW's idea of custody is to have D every night. You do know that custody rights, and child support are based on overnights, not total time. You let her have every night, and you are potentially signing away your D forever. I strongly, strongly advise you to accept nothing less than 50-50 joint. Week on, week off. I would move as fast as you can to get a custody and finance agreements in place. At some point she is going to find herself out of money, losing her home and needing to get a job, and her BF isnt going to lift a finger to help. You want to get agreements in place before these things happen.

lt0402 #2702611 09/07/16 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
It seems like my brain is still wrapped around how to respond and defend from her, as opposed to how I set my own personal boundary, regardless of who it is violating it.

I read someone write (and Im paraphrasing horribly) that these discussions are like a H and W holding up some cube between them - if the W pushes one way and the H replies pushing the other way, the cube will stay up. But if one person pushes and the other backs away, then the cube will just fall. So in some ways, I think you should consider that...you dont need to "stand up" to everything...where can you let the cube fall?

Originally Posted By: lt0402
The onslaught makes me fairly defensive

On the bolded part, I know it was too much response. She's kind of hinted that I'm spying on her for a little bit now. I really wanted to get across the last 2 sentences of the message, but felt I had to put to rest what she's been implying w/ the rest. Too firm of an approach on the above, or I should have solely explained why I had that program on the pc?

In my opinion, everything you bolded was incredibly defensive, and I think, unnecessarily so. If she thought that you were spying on her, do you think the bolded changed her mind (I'd guess not)? If not, then its wasted breath.

And the last two sentences, while true, are lost in this message. She asked about a program for spying on phones and you responded with "you made your choices, blah blah blah." The words lose their meaning if you dont time them right. One of the most important things I took from DR was to learn about how to time things so that you can get a positive response. Do you think that this was an effective discussion of those points?

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Hey all, been focused on this most of yesterday afternoon and today. Apologize for the lack of responses.

Cheesyt, yep, it was out of left field to me as well. It's the option I've offered to her as my preferred one were we to work towards reconciliation. Her wanting to work through MC was not expected by me right now, so I find myself questioning why she's willing to do it. I'm hoping it's for good reasons, but approaching this cautiously.

JR, that's what I'm afraid of. That it's either her lining this up to say that she tried, or it's her L pushing her to check the box. I want to believe she's willing to work on our MR in earnest, but w/ everything that's happened the past few months I'm having a tough time getting fully behind that.

I've responded back to her saying that I'd like to discuss the marriage counseling this evening and then i'll make the appointment. I want to express to her that it's going to be hard work and I only want to go down this path if we're both committed to putting in the work. I also want to tell her that if we do this, the goal is for both of us to truly be happy and not to get stuck in the same spot we were in previously. If she understands and accepts that, then I'm willing to give MC a shot with her.

Fade, I feel stronger, but still not fully where I want to be yet. I'm worried about the reasons for her wanting to do this as well and am hoping to get a better read on it when I discuss with her tonight. I don't want her "riding this out" for the sake of our D as I don't think that's healthy for anyone and will leave us all unhappy.

To be honest, I have no idea if she's still talking to OM or not right now. I stopped the snooping after her last trip out of state to see OM in early Aug. I'm not sure how to balance the potential that's still going on w/ attempting to do MC.

Ws idea of custody is that she'd have D every night except every other weekend. Definitely not on board with that. My last conversation with her, I'd discussed that my view was D would do closer to 50/50 w/ her time for overnights. I was just about ready to retain my own L to respond to her structuring a S agreement when she offered MC.

Darknes, I see what you're saying on the cube. I'm fairly sensitive to any confrontation currently, when i should probably be letting the smaller ones roll off. perfect example of pick your battles.

On the bolded stuff, you're right. None of that would have changed her mind. Taking a step back w/ a cooler head probably would have helped and the response would have been shorter and more to the point.

It was definitely not an effective time to toss those points out there. It was probably a stretch, looking for an opportunity to reiterate comments from our Saturday conversation. Out of context completely. Still need some work on my DR skills, but I am extremely appreciative of your challenging me on these. Seeing where I've got some big deficiencies that i never would have seen myself! Still have a lot of work to do!

On this whole situation, I figured it was important enough to get the advice of my IC. We talked through my concerns that this may not be real, or there may be an ulterior motive. IC thought the conversation from Saturday may have sparked something in the W which may have led to this. IC also highlighted it's possible it's something completely unrelated too.

Regardless, we both agreed it's worthwhile for me to have a quick discussion w/ W of what MC means for me. If she's onboard w/ that then we take it one session at a time. IC warned me not to go into this with too much caution as it could cause that spark to go away. We talked about how if this is real, there's still extremely hard work to do. I still am finding it difficult to accept the sudden change, but I'm willing to give it a try.

I've gotten a couple messages from my W since the one confirming she was talking about MC. Both were around my D and asking if I could give both W and D a little more space this weekend by getting out of the house more. It's the first time W has asked for space since maybe July or so. Unsure this contradicts the MC conversation above, or if it's just W trying to honestly relay what she needs. Somewhat confusing, but i'll try to give them more space and see what happens. One GAL activity w/ H who is getting S (D's best friends dad) on Friday evening. Will get another GAL on the calendar for Sunday probably.

Am I being too trusting and naïve? I'm torn bc of Ws lies around the OM situation. IC says it fully possible for someone to be completely honest about everything, but then lie their butt off around an A. Is the possible reward worth the risk that I'm taking here?

I've gotten a MC session setup for Sep 26 (earliest i could get) w/ a counselor that my IC highly recommended. I'll tell my W after we discuss face to face tonight and i get some clarity (maybe) around her level of effort on this.

Thanks all, as always your support has carried me through this thing. This is probably the most confused i think I've been in this whole thing. It's hopeful, frustrating, maddening, and scary all at the same time. I guess i'll take this side path and see if it leads to another one, or i end up right back on the path i was travelling again.

Cheesyt, you are correct, never a dull moment here!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702644 09/07/16 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
I want to express to her that it's going to be hard work and I only want to go down this path if we're both committed to putting in the work. I also want to tell her that if we do this, the goal is for both of us to truly be happy and not to get stuck in the same spot we were in previously. If she understands and accepts that, then I'm willing to give MC a shot with her.

Regardless, we both agreed it's worthwhile for me to have a quick discussion w/ W of what MC means for me.


Just my opinion.

But I think rather than saying what it means to you, you should ask what it means to HER. Then see if that matches your intention.

Im pretty sure if you list all of that, shes going to tell you not to bother before you have any actual discussion.

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darknes, good idea. may lead to some overload on her part.

I usually try to have these conversations face to face, but i wonder if it's better for me to ask her via text to let her think about it before we talk.

still confused by the whole thing. i asked the MC to let me know if there was a cancellation we could take sooner as I'd like to get the ball rolling on this.

Unsure how to act towards her in the meantime. It seems like it's a slightly softer version of how i have been acting.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702772 09/07/16 06:22 PM
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Ok, so just had a quick dialogue w/ W and asked her what she's hoping to get out of the MC. She put it back on me and said isn't this what you said we needed, what are you hoping to get out of it.

I told her its to work through our issues and fix our M. She said ok, make the appointment. Unsure how to take that. A little on the aggravated side on her end. I didn't push further bc of the aggravation.

Still wary that this is for real. That conversation didn't help it. IC says the MC he recommended is very direct and will call out bs. Think that's a good fit for us as we both probably need a swift kick in the a$$. I'm just not sure if W will put effort into this.

W was much better in front of D and me tonight. We all joked around and talked to each other. No disrespect coming from W which was the first time in a while. That conversation though seems to show she's still heavily conflicted.

Wish the first MC session was next week and not the 26th. If history is any guide, a lot will happen over the next 3 weeks. I'll address with IC next Tuesday to get his thoughts on managing this until then.

If W is trying to confuse the sh$t out of me it's working. I felt like I had a good compass on this thing as recently as Tuesday morning, but now I feel like I'm in limbo. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best I guess. Maybe it's stupidity to hope this is something real. The odds probably lean towards this not working out favorably.

Had fun with D tonight making cardboard ninja stars and playing ninja. Got in some gym time this am and after work. More present at work as of late which is good, but still a heavy focus on all this.

We will see where this path leads. Worst case I end up right back where I was before. Hopefully how can be leveraged into something to build from though.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702778 09/07/16 06:48 PM
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My W suggested we go to MC right after I found out about her EA...we went twice and then we both went individually. When I found out that she was still having the EA I said it didn't do any good to go if she was still having the A. I read somewhere that they suggest MC to seem like the tried to "WORK" on the M. I hope that isn't the case for you though, yep prepare for worst and hope for best!


W:42 M:48
T:9 yrs M:1yr
BD: Feb 2016
EA Confirmed: Feb 2016/PA July 2016
D: Feb 2017

hawker #2702803 09/07/16 09:29 PM
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wow! it's like my roommate always tells me, I wish I could fast forward and know the outcome already.

stay calm and level headed! approach with caution!!! I have a feeling any little mishap will send your W off the deep end and make her regret the decision (cus that's what my W would do, and they sound very similar)

keeping my fingers crossed for you buddy! smile


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
lt0402 #2702842 09/08/16 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402

I told her its to work through our issues and fix our M. She said ok, make the appointment.

I'm just not sure if W will put effort into this.

I would go into it with no expectations. I doubt it will make anything WORSE.

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Originally Posted By: darknes
Originally Posted By: lt0402

I told her its to work through our issues and fix our M. She said ok, make the appointment.

I'm just not sure if W will put effort into this.

I would go into it with no expectations. I doubt it will make anything WORSE.


DB principle.....
Act as if....
We are all here because MWD inspired us with her research and understanding of marriage.
Refer regularly to the principles she has shared with us and you will progress...


Me 46 Former W 46
D19 D7
BD Feb 2016
WAW moves out 4/16/16
D final 6/1/2017

It's time for me to start changin' the way I look at the world......and at myself. ~James Howlett aka Wolverine
cheesyt #2702879 09/08/16 07:44 AM
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Hawk, I agree. Taking that approach for sure. I also fear this is her proving she tried to "work" on the M, but I guess I won't see that until we start the MC process.

Cheesyt, I wish i had a life remote control w/ both a FF and Rewind button on it! How nice that'd be! smile One of the things I'm struggling w/ now that she's expressed she'd like to do MC is how I act around her. I think I'm still supposed to take the approach of treating her like an out of town guest and keep a stable environment until we start MC. That is to say, I take darknes' approach of picking only the important battles to fight/stand up for, combined w/ being pleasant but not too accommodating the rest of the time. Hell, I'm going to pick back up DR and do some review this weekend.

Darknes and SH, I've gotten back to level here after the past couple days. I'm trying to view this as just another step in the process and going into it w/ no expectations other than it'll be hard work, at least for me. worse comes to worse, we end up right back where we are now.

On the DB principles, I think i need to pick back up the DR book and do some reading this weekend. Thank you for the reminder SH! I've also setup a session w/ my DB coach to discuss this and how i should handle the interaction going into the MC session. Trying my best to keep this spark going, but not expecting anything to come from it.

Journaling now real quick.

W was pleasant last night, other than the quick conversation we had around MC. I went to be around 10 (my normal time). Woke up at 12 and was surprised that W was already in bed and asleep. I'm not sure when the last time she went to bed before 2am was. Started my brain cranking and i didn't get back to sleep for awhile. Who knows if it means anything, but getting some sleep should hopefully take some stress off her.

Missed the gym this AM, so no running today. Will hit it up on the way home though. Meeting w/ my my dad to exercise w/ him tomorrow AM. GAL tomorrow evening w/ Ds friend's dad. DB coach Saturday and then working up a GAL activity for sunday.

Appreciate all of you helping me through this latest "challenge". Your support is extremely helpful and much appreciated!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702881 09/08/16 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402

Ws idea of custody is that she'd have D every night except every other weekend. Definitely not on board with that. My last conversation with her, I'd discussed that my view was D would do closer to 50/50 w/ her time for overnights. I was just about ready to retain my own L to respond to her structuring a S agreement when she offered MC.


Well here is the explanation for her sudden suggestion to do MC! This worked out great for her. You had found some resolve, maybe she wouldnt get everything she wants on a silver platter anymore. So she says 5 words and you are back in your place. The only motivation she will have to work on your marriage is if she feels she is losing something. She has not and will not as long as she can control you with false hope.

What you will see now is her forever shifting the goal posts to keep you running in circles.

When I suggested before that you could try mediation, I did not realize she had already retained a lawyer. That changes everything. You need to retain your own L immediately, and you really should try to beat her to the punch with terms, including minimum support and 50-50 custody.

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So W continues to harp on my R w/ D. Got a couple text messages from W around Ds plans for the weekend (friend over sat., sleepover sat. evening, party sun. afternoon/evening) so I'd know when D is free. I say I may move my GAL for Fri to Sat so there'd be more time to hang out and W says D asked if she could fall asleep in our bed. No problem, I can keep my GAL for tomorrow instead of Sat.

W then sends me this:

"I know this may sound mean, but please get that it's not intended to be. D asked me this morning if you could live w/ D's friends dad who is getting divorced. I know it's not a realistic situation and that's not why I'm telling you. For Ds whole life, you've broken promises, ignored her, not always told the truth, nor had her back. D is asking for space bc it's the only way she knows to fix it. Pls, I'm begging you, let her have it. If you have any chance of salvaging things w/ her you need to back off a little. Even after we separated you went back to ignoring her and breaking promises, after you promised her you were changing. She has ZERO reason to trust you. Stop trying to build her trust by being in her face all the time."

More of the same on this aspect of things. Planning to give them both some space this weekend and see how W reacts to that. I won't, however, step away from time w/ D bc I believe we are in a better place than we ever have been. Frustrating, but I'm going to try the space and see what happens.

Fade, W paid a small retainer to get L to draft a separation agreement on July 28th. Our plan has been to work through mediation w/ each of us having a L for advice and guidance. I've seen 3 different Ls, but haven't retained one yet. I asked W at the conclusion of this weekend's chat around custody if i should go ahead and retain my L and she said yes. We also agreed her L would work on the S agreement bc they are cheaper by the hour. Then on tues she tosses out the MC question.

I do see what you are saying w/ the false hopes. I'm also afraid of this. It's a weird little balancing act though. If she offers MC and we don't do it, it shows I'm not willing to work on things. If we do MC and she's not putting the effort in then she can say she's tried. It seems a bit like a catch 22. Should i not start the MC and see what her attitude is prior to trying to hammer home a S agreement w/ her? I'm kind of stuck on this and am open to any thoughts here.

Thanks fade!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702920 09/08/16 10:36 AM
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A 9 year old is asking for space? Lol. This just sounds like more made up controlling nonsense. If the kid doesn't want to go somewhere with her Dad, she will say so. Your child doesn't have "plans." If you ask "do you want to go do X?" she will say "Daddy, I have XXXX." OK.

I will say the best thing for you is this separation. Your W is being crazy when it comes to controlling your child. You should frame your counseling session around what you should be doing in the interim for your child. I don't think this woman is going to put diddly into marriage.


Me: 35 W: 32
S: 4
T: 6 M: 4
Physical Separation official: 5/21
Currently: DR/DBing, Focusing on me and son

Cheating on a good person is like throwing away a diamond and picking up a rock.
lt0402 #2702923 09/08/16 10:47 AM
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To me it sounds like your WW is either corrupting your D's view of you or is making it up. Either way it is to manipulate you on custody terms. If you are/were slacking as a dad that is priority #1 to fix. Earning trust takes a lot of work, being truthful and consistent in every way. Do what you say, say what you do. Only promise what you can and will do.

And I bet the idea of D sleeping with WW is not D's idea. just my 2 cents.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
lt0402 #2702931 09/08/16 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402

"I know this may sound mean, but please get that it's not intended to be. D asked me this morning if you could live w/ D's friends dad who is getting divorced. I know it's not a realistic situation and that's not why I'm telling you. For Ds whole life, you've broken promises, ignored her, not always told the truth, nor had her back. D is asking for space bc it's the only way she knows to fix it. Pls, I'm begging you, let her have it. If you have any chance of salvaging things w/ her you need to back off a little. Even after we separated you went back to ignoring her and breaking promises, after you promised her you were changing. She has ZERO reason to trust you. Stop trying to build her trust by being in her face all the time."

Im not great at crafting these kinds of messages, but here's my thoughts:

"I recognize that I havent always been the best parent. I also recognize that rebuilding my relationship with D is a two way street. That said, if there is something different that she needs from me, then I need to have that discussion with her, not with you."

You cannot keep having these discussion about what your daughter needs through the filter of your W. It doesnt make any sense. Your D has "ZERO reason to trust you"? What 9 year old talks about not trusting their parents?

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I'd start family counseling with your D asap, and I'd want a psych evaluation of your D as part of any custody arrangement,

I've had four 9 year olds. Kids just don't think like that at that age unless they are being prejudiced by the other parent.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
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RSG, I agree and the IC and I discuss at times how to make the environment more stable for my D. IC thinks W is intertwined w/ D and we've discussed mother/daughter Rs. Some really strange stuff. I'm also afraid that my telling W my views on custody has her willing to "suffer through" our M for the sake of our D and that's what's leading to her willingness to do MC.

MV, I know that it was Ws idea for D to sleep with her. When i moved out of the MBR when she first saw OM in July, W had D sleep in there for like 3 straight weeks. Finally D told her she wanted to sleep in her own bed. Now that I'm back in MBR, there's been no opportunity for her to pull D in there.

I'll admit that my focus was more on work than on M and R w/ D before all this hit. Ever since the BD, my R with D is stronger and getting better by the day. At one point I asked W what promises I'd broken to her and D and she couldn't list a single one. I've made sure to have touchpoints w/ D and ask her if there's anything I've been doing wrong or could be doing better. The only thing she's offered back to me is she would like me to do more to help mommy b/c mommy is overloaded and she'd like me to stop doing things that aggravate mommy.

I fear that D is so worried about doing things to upset W that she may be telling W things she wants to hear. Or W really may just be making stuff up. I think there's truth to what W is saying, but I think it's reflective of the situation pre BD and not now. At least that's what I get a sense of from my conversations w/ D. It will be interesting to see how this changes now that D is back in school and W isn't w/ her for a chunk of the day w/o me.

[quote=mvgfwd2]If you are/were slacking as a dad that is priority #1 to fix. Earning trust takes a lot of work, being truthful and consistent in every way. Do what you say, say what you do. Only promise what you can and will do.[quote]

100% this. The mantra i live by now. Before BD I now realize I'd fudge the truth at times to avoid Ws wrath. No more of that. Consistency of action is also big on my list of things I'm focused on.

Darknes, I sent this back to W before seeing your msg.

Me: "Ok. I hear you on all this. It's difficult for me to discuss this sort of stuff on text. I'll ask her if she'd like to do the pool sunday morning. You're welcome to join us if you'd like."

It's honest. Discussing this on text w/ her always leads to her taking things out of context (either on her end, or bc i suck at texting). Never goes anywhere productive.

W almost seems to just be lumping D in w/ her complaints, like she's building a coalition against me. W continuously says she has ZERO trust in me. W continuously says I've been unreliable in the past. Etc, etc, etc

All i know is that D has no issues going fishing, hiking, swimming, etc w/ just me. We have tons of conversation around most everything. Ds told me her worries about my W, about her boyfriend at school, about her friends, etc. D has no issues being around me or showing me affection. All of that tends to not jive w/ Ws view of how D sees me. There is the possibility for trust issues b/t D and me going back to before BD, and i know if there are it'll take a while to fully get them back. Part of those, though, are bc of how W portrayed me to D wrt the meds and food situation. The other part of those falls squarely on me for having broken promises in the past, knowingly or unknowingly. Like I've told my W, i accept blame for my faults and issues from pre BD. At least I'm actively working to fix them.

I'll discuss w/ D when we get a moment w/o W this weekend. Am going to ask her if I'm spending too much time w/ her or if she feels like I'm keeping her from doing fun things. I won't necessarily share w/ W, but it'll help me to frame things.

So, I'm somewhat in a conundrum here. I think we all agree there's good potential W is angling to drive a wedge b/t D and I. For what purpose, I'm not fully sure. Could be for custody, by causing me to back away and spend less time w/ her. Could be for her continuing to maintain control over D and she feels threatened by me stepping up and gaining influence w/ D. Could just be W projecting her issues w/ me onto D.

Whatever it is, it doesn't seem healthy or good. Lob onto the top of that W saying she'll do MC. Her reason for wanting to do that is also currently unclear.

I want to pursue the MC angle, but wish it wasn't in 3 weeks. I want to see what her level of effort is once we get into that. I think a lot of clarity comes from seeing that.

However, I don't want her to blindside me by forcing me away from my D when she seems to need me the most.

It almost seems like i continue down the path I'm going, almost like MC hasn't been put on the table. I continue to push to do my Ds meds and food, i continue to spend quality time w/ D and build that R, and i continue to be a rock for D like this is not going to work out.

The part i struggle w/ is should i still retain that L and work through a plan w/ them for certain scenarios. How does W view that and does it kill the MC idea. Maybe i shouldn't worry about that so much. Open to thoughts.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702952 09/08/16 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
I know this may sound mean


Yes, because she is trying to be mean. This is where I normally would hit delete.

Ignore that nonsense from your WW. Dont respond at all. You can not allow her to sit in the middle of your relationship with your own D. And Im sure its 99% BS and 1% whatever your D is parroting back to her.

Originally Posted By: lt0402
Planning to give them both some space this weekend and see how W reacts to that.


No, dont give your D space. And dont watch WW for reactions. Find awesome things to do that she will WANT to participate in. Sounds like your WW is her gatekeeper, and you are allowing her to schedule your D out of your life.

Originally Posted By: lt0402
Frustrating, but I'm going to try the space and see what happens.


Backfiring is what will happen.


Originally Posted By: lt0402
I asked W at the conclusion of this weekend's chat around custody if i should go ahead and retain my L and she said yes.


This is like the US asking the Japanese if we should gas up the planes at pearl harbor in 41. Why on earth would you ASK her anything about this?


Originally Posted By: lt0402
We also agreed her L would work on the S agreement bc they are cheaper by the hour.


This is very, very stupid.

Originally Posted By: lt0402
If she offers MC and we don't do it, it shows I'm not willing to work on things. If we do MC and she's not putting the effort in then she can say she's tried. It seems a bit like a catch 22. Should i not start the MC and see what her attitude is prior to trying to hammer home a S agreement w/ her? I'm kind of stuck on this and am open to any thoughts here.


My thoughts are that you say you would welcome any counseling AFTER she unequivocally ends her affair. And you proceed as fast as you can getting agreements in place. If you can do separate financial and custody agreements in your area, get the financial one done now. Custody is going to be a fight, and might never be settled. But your best bet is to get orders in place now and then she has to fight to take away time from you.

lt0402 #2702955 09/08/16 01:20 PM
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Rose, I agree but I don't get any of that feedback direct from my D. It's all from my W who says that my D is too afraid to tell me this type of stuff bc i "will stop playing w/ her". It could be true that D is hesitant to tell me this stuff, but I'm not seeing it to this degree. Going to look into family therapy as I haven't touched on that in any detail yet.

I'm going to send my W details around our MC appointment, as well as the bio of the MC. Unsure of the feedback i'll get from W on it. I think I'm too paranoid that one misstep will scare her away from this whole MC thing. If that's the case, I'd assume the MC approach isn't the right one anyway. We'll see.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702960 09/08/16 01:53 PM
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When you talk again to your WW about the MC session you could say that the MC thinks the session is only worth the time if:

a: the A has ended
and
b: both parties are willing to do the work to fix the M

just an idea to deflect the conditions to the MC instead of you.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
fade #2702961 09/08/16 01:54 PM
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Fade, I've got to tell you, you are an awesome ally in this thing. You've got a way of helping me regain balance and not slip too far into "rose colored glasses" territory. Going to respond back to these, but know that I'm biased somewhat in not killing this idea of MC w/ the W.

Originally Posted By: fade
Originally Posted By: lt0402
I know this may sound mean


Yes, because she is trying to be mean. This is where I normally would hit delete.

Ignore that nonsense from your WW. Dont respond at all. You can not allow her to sit in the middle of your relationship with your own D. And Im sure its 99% BS and 1% whatever your D is parroting back to her.
Quote:


Agree 100% with all of this. It's her way of getting me off balance. she's had success with it in making me feel like a bad father and H previously and she continues to use it, though i continue to discount it more and more.

Originally Posted By: fade
[quote=lt0402]Planning to give them both some space this weekend and see how W reacts to that.


No, dont give your D space. And dont watch WW for reactions. Find awesome things to do that she will WANT to participate in. Sounds like your WW is her gatekeeper, and you are allowing her to schedule your D out of your life.


Ok, thinking about it more, i agree w/ you here. WW is absolutely her gatekeeper. I'll grab more time w/ D this weekend. Only thing is that all of this time she has scheduled is w/ Ds friends and W won't be there either. She's almost scheduling her out of both our lives.

Originally Posted By: fade
[quote=lt0402]Frustrating, but I'm going to try the space and see what happens.


Backfiring is what will happen.
Quote:


Again, agree after thinking it through. I'll give W space this weekend and focus on doing fun stuff w/ D when she's not w/ friends.

Originally Posted By: fade
[quote=lt0402]I asked W at the conclusion of this weekend's chat around custody if i should go ahead and retain my L and she said yes.


This is like the US asking the Japanese if we should gas up the planes at pearl harbor in 41. Why on earth would you ASK her anything about this?


Ok, i'll admit, this one had me laughing on this end. You're right. I framed the question to her in the context of "I won't proactively push this D forward. If you are pushing it forward, let me know if i should go ahead and retain an L". It was me trying to get a feel for how serious she was in going fwd. After she answered yes, i assumed she was and was going to retain my own L until i got that msg tues.

Originally Posted By: fade
[quote=lt0402]We also agreed her L would work on the S agreement bc they are cheaper by the hour.


This is very, very stupid.


fade, can you expound on this one? from talking to Ls they seem to think it's not important who writes the initial S agreement as there will be back and forth in the mediation process. Curious to get your thoughts.

Originally Posted By: fade
[
Originally Posted By: lt0402
If she offers MC and we don't do it, it shows I'm not willing to work on things. If we do MC and she's not putting the effort in then she can say she's tried. It seems a bit like a catch 22. Should i not start the MC and see what her attitude is prior to trying to hammer home a S agreement w/ her? I'm kind of stuck on this and am open to any thoughts here.


My thoughts are that you say you would welcome any counseling AFTER she unequivocally ends her affair. And you proceed as fast as you can getting agreements in place. If you can do separate financial and custody agreements in your area, get the financial one done now. Custody is going to be a fight, and might never be settled. But your best bet is to get orders in place now and then she has to fight to take away time from you.


Fade, i hear you advocating to pursue MC (so long as the A is ended) as well as the S agreement process at the same time? I agree that custody will be a mess if we get to that. My fear is that by introducing the S agreement process into this I'm killing the chance of the MC work getting done. Thoughts?

Appreciate you brother! You and others are a perfect counterpoint to my biased thoughts. Please keep your thoughts and ideas coming. THANK YOU!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702963 09/08/16 01:59 PM
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Trying this again as i did a horrible job quoting above:

Fade, I've got to tell you, you are an awesome ally in this thing. You've got a way of helping me regain balance and not slip too far into "rose colored glasses" territory. Going to respond back to these, but know that I'm biased somewhat in not killing this idea of MC w/ the W.

Originally Posted By: fade
Originally Posted By: lt0402
I know this may sound mean


Yes, because she is trying to be mean. This is where I normally would hit delete.

Ignore that nonsense from your WW. Dont respond at all. You can not allow her to sit in the middle of your relationship with your own D. And Im sure its 99% BS and 1% whatever your D is parroting back to her.


Agree 100% with all of this. It's her way of getting me off balance. she's had success with it in making me feel like a bad father and H previously and she continues to use it, though i continue to discount it more and more.

Originally Posted By: fade
Originally Posted By: lt0402
Planning to give them both some space this weekend and see how W reacts to that.


No, dont give your D space. And dont watch WW for reactions. Find awesome things to do that she will WANT to participate in. Sounds like your WW is her gatekeeper, and you are allowing her to schedule your D out of your life.


Ok, thinking about it more, i agree w/ you here. WW is absolutely her gatekeeper. I'll grab more time w/ D this weekend. Only thing is that all of this time she has scheduled is w/ Ds friends and W won't be there either. She's almost scheduling her out of both our lives.

Originally Posted By: fade
Originally Posted By: lt0402
Frustrating, but I'm going to try the space and see what happens.


Backfiring is what will happen.


Again, agree after thinking it through. I'll give W space this weekend and focus on doing fun stuff w/ D when she's not w/ friends.

Originally Posted By: fade
Originally Posted By: lt0402
I asked W at the conclusion of this weekend's chat around custody if i should go ahead and retain my L and she said yes.


This is like the US asking the Japanese if we should gas up the planes at pearl harbor in 41. Why on earth would you ASK her anything about this?


Ok, i'll admit, this one had me laughing on this end. You're right. I framed the question to her in the context of "I won't proactively push this D forward. If you are pushing it forward, let me know if i should go ahead and retain an L". It was me trying to get a feel for how serious she was in going fwd. After she answered yes, i assumed she was and was going to retain my own L until i got that msg tues.

Originally Posted By: fade
Originally Posted By: lt0402
We also agreed her L would work on the S agreement bc they are cheaper by the hour.


This is very, very stupid.


fade, can you expound on this one? from talking to Ls they seem to think it's not important who writes the initial S agreement as there will be back and forth in the mediation process. Curious to get your thoughts.

Originally Posted By: fade
[
Originally Posted By: lt0402
If she offers MC and we don't do it, it shows I'm not willing to work on things. If we do MC and she's not putting the effort in then she can say she's tried. It seems a bit like a catch 22. Should i not start the MC and see what her attitude is prior to trying to hammer home a S agreement w/ her? I'm kind of stuck on this and am open to any thoughts here.


My thoughts are that you say you would welcome any counseling AFTER she unequivocally ends her affair. And you proceed as fast as you can getting agreements in place. If you can do separate financial and custody agreements in your area, get the financial one done now. Custody is going to be a fight, and might never be settled. But your best bet is to get orders in place now and then she has to fight to take away time from you.


Fade, i hear you advocating to pursue MC (so long as the A is ended) as well as the S agreement process at the same time? I agree that custody will be a mess if we get to that. My fear is that by introducing the S agreement process into this I'm killing the chance of the MC work getting done. Thoughts?

Appreciate you brother! You and others are a perfect counterpoint to my biased thoughts. Please keep your thoughts and ideas coming. THANK YOU! [/quote]


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2702965 09/08/16 02:04 PM
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One possible outcome of creating a S agreement is to show your W that the fantasy land she envisions is not going to happen. That type of S agreement can only come from your L, not hers. Her L will make it like she wants for an opener. So it all depends on where you want to start the negotiations and if you want to use for the shock value.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
lt0402 #2702972 09/08/16 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
Rose, I agree but I don't get any of that feedback direct from my D. It's all from my W who says that my D is too afraid to tell me this type of stuff bc i "will stop playing w/ her". It could be true that D is hesitant to tell me this stuff, but I'm not seeing it to this degree. Going to look into family therapy as I haven't touched on that in any detail yet.

I'm going to send my W details around our MC appointment, as well as the bio of the MC. Unsure of the feedback i'll get from W on it. I think I'm too paranoid that one misstep will scare her away from this whole MC thing. If that's the case, I'd assume the MC approach isn't the right one anyway. We'll see.


I get that.

Here's the thing. One of two things is happening, and they are both bad for you.

1. Your daughter really does think and feel this way and is too scared of you or disconnected from you to tell you. If this is the case, you need to get the two of you to family counseling pronto to work through these issues.

2. Your wife is trying to create drama and discord in your relationship with your daughter. If this is the case, your best defense is a good offense. You want rock solid communication with your daughter, and a counselor can help with that. Don't mess around with parental alienation. You need to get in front of it NOW.

It's going to be hard for you to tell by yourself which situation you are dealing with. A counselor can diagnose and treat.

Seriously, this is big. Don't ignore this out of fear that it will mess things up with your wife. If it does, they were going to break anyway.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Rose888 #2703010 09/08/16 07:44 PM
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Ok. A whole lot of discussion the past 2 days for nothing. I went downstairs after we put D to bed. W got mad about me "hovering" over D tonight. So I told her I got that I'd been hovering a bit and I was cognizant and would work on it. (Probably the wrong thing)

W started into a conversation that began with "we probably shouldn't talk about this tonight...." The gist of it was that D has been telling her more and more that she needs space and she doesn't want to live with me. (Same as Ws message to me). W then said she thinks the best thing, and I should take some time to really think about it, is for us to not uproot D for the school year and she should sleep in one place. Therefore, it would be less stressful if I moved into an apartment and D and W stayed here. We would do the MC and "who knows" we might be in a much different spot where our M stuff is fixed in the spring. W says that's the best thing for D bc she's super stressed out bc of me. Me being out of the house allows me to rebuild the trust I do not have with my D.

I tell W that my feelings haven't changed since Saturday. I will not move out of the house. She is welcome to if she feels she needs to, but she can't take D with her. I tell her that i want both of us to be truly happy. I don't want us to stay in the same unhappy situation we have been in our M. I believe MC is the way to fix this and make us both truly happy, but it's not worth it unless we are both willing to put in the effort and hard work.

W says that her message the other day did not mean she wanted to go to a M counselor. It meant that she wanted to go to a co-parenting counselor and that our M is not, nor will it ever be fixable. She says she's been consistent on that since the beginning. She says it has nothing to do with OM. She's not talking to him. She would never bring him to our house. She would never go see him while we are married. (Huh....are we not seperated? What has changed?). I can check if I want to.

W says it has to do with how horribly I've treated her and D all these years. How they could never trust me. If I'd just run the sprinkler in the backyard for 5 minutes once a week, etc, etc, etc. same story. W gets progressively more angry, calls me selfish, tells me I am only thinking of myself. I tell her I'm thinking of what's best for us and her choices are not the best for our family. She jumps on that and says how dare I lecture her on choices that I've forced her into. If it were not for D, W would still be here (that's odd). W is doing what's best for D bc D is constantly asking for me to leave. I tell her I don't believe that D is the solution to our problems. She may go if she wants. D won't go with her. W takes that to mean I want full custody of D. I tell her no, that's not what I mean at all. W sarcastically says well we will just live this sh$tty life here again for another 10yrs and I'll continue to cry myself to sleep and D will continue to cry about how awful you treat her.

W tells me I'm out of chances. I'm one bad choice away from losing Ds trust forever. I haven't made any changes over the past 3 months to try to save my R with W. All my changes have been odd personal changes. W says I told her I haven't even worked on my M issues with IC. What I'd told her was we weren't focused on the M issues as much anymore and we're now focusing on me. W says even after she told me we were S I did nothing to try to save the M. (Ok....).

W says I really, really need to think about what's best and come back to her with a plan. I tell her I have not changed my mind. I won't leave the house, she may leave, but D is not going with her. W brings up how can I force D to be put in the awkward position of choosing. I tell her that's not how this works and it's her choice that's putting D in this position.

W spews. W curses and tells me f$ck you. W tells me I'm selfish. W tells me this is all about me not accepting blame. I tell her I accept the blame for my past faults. This has been a wake up call and I'm working to fix me. I also tell her that the faults of the past are not as black and white as she's making them out to be. She goes in bathroom, cries, comes out and she spews some more. I start to talk and she tells me we are done talking. I tell her I don't want her to be unhappy and these are her choices. She says we are done talking and is very angry. I go upstairs.

So.....it would appear that W may have been trying to entice me to move with promises of MC. Can't mind read but that's the first thing that pops in my head. W is rewriting stuff from 2 days ago now. So, I think I've got no choice but to retain an L. She mentioned multiple times in that convo a custody agreement. I'll go to the L tomorrow and write the check.

W was so furious by the end. We had a great evening with all of us getting along. Apparently that was a show I guess. I don't believe I misread Ws text, as it was pretty clear around the MC. Also, when I talked to her last night and said what do you want to get out of MC it seemed pretty clear she was aggravated, but would do it. This seems like a complete pivot away from that. Is this normal?

I came upstairs and had a quick cry around it afterwards. Had apparently put some hope into this. That's dashed though and now I'm back to level. If her plan was to get me to move out by promising MC, it's a horribly thought out one. I don't see any course of action but to retain my own L and have them work on a S agreement. W continues to tell me there is 0 chance we are ever together again. Sad that MC probably fixes things but she's unwilling to put in the effort. Going to need to decide what to do with that appointment. I did tell W to let me know what to do with it, but I didn't think it worthwhile unless we were committed to the work.

It's a shame. Throwing away a family and 11yrs of M bc of stupid sh$t. Not giving up on this, but damn, I don't see any way out right now. This seems so lowdown and dirty.

Thanks to everyone for your input today. Sorry it was for naught. I guess we will see where this goes, but definitely going to the L tomorrow. Bleh....


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2703014 09/08/16 07:55 PM
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One last thing. W said that she has no idea why I'm holding onto this so tight. She said it's probably bc I'm worried bc of what other people or my family will think if I divorce. She said it's obviously not bc I care about W and D.

That's pretty hurtful. Just wanted to get that down so I'd remember. A lot of spew tonight.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2703016 09/08/16 08:32 PM
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Just one observation from a few days ago. W is worried about a IC talking with D without either of you present and you are not. Pretty clear to me she knows her statements about D's feelings towards are all BS.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
mvgfwd2 #2703060 09/09/16 05:24 AM
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This is such complete crap about your D, lt0402. I hope you can see that. This is not one of those cases where your W is saying something you should validate. You should calmly but firmly tell her your R with D is going great, and that you do not accept her version of it. Custody needs to be high on the agenda with your L. There is just no way your D would do all of the things you've described doing with her this summer, have fun doing them, then tell her mother that she wants you to move out of the house because you "hover" and she "needs space". 9 year olds just don't do that. They don't talk like that, and they have no desire for a Dad, with whom they have fun, good times, to move out of the house. If any of what your W says was true, she wouldn't want to do things with you. She'd avoid you, hide behind her mom, etc.

THis is entirely about a woman with emotional problems losing the control she's previously had over her daughter and, in turn, going further around the bend as that control slips away.


Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
lt0402 #2703069 09/09/16 05:56 AM
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You were warned of what your WW would do. She is building a case against you. There is no humanly possible way you could win with her, not where the D9 is concerned. She uses D9 as the whitteling tool to chip away at you. This is a woman who got mad b/c she thought you weren't paying enough attention to D9 and then she gets mad b/c she thought you hovered over her too long when tucking her in bed!!! And what is your response to these absurd statements? You either go into a diagolog of explanation, or tell her you will work on it. Giving the picture of a guilty person who is at fault, whatever his WW says or accuses him.

She is not only wayward, but there are psychological issues that counseling the M cannot help, until she gets straightened out as an individual and a normal parent. Let me make this clear about MC a WW. Just b/c the A ends, does not mean she is ready for MC. Just b/c the A ends, does not mean her waywardness has ended. MC for/with a wayward is nothing but a time to unleash fury and endorse her reasons for ending her M with such a terrible H/father. Do you get it? It is NOT you. The problem is not YOU. That's why you will never be able to "improve" enough to make her happy and stay off your back about the daughter. Her WAYWARDNESS is the problem.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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There has been a lot of posts in the last day, I didn't have time to go through everything right now, but what I did see was you say that your WW was setting up a Separation agreement and wanted you to only have your daughter every other weekend, you said that won't work for me, and then she says that your daughter "WANTS" you to go move in with her friends father.

Hmm, is it possible that her L told her that if you move out of the house she will have a much stronger case against you for custody? Be careful, it really sounds like she is trying to manipulate you.


M - 9 1/2 years
5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA
10/31/16 - We sold house
01/10/18 - D Finalized
Coconut #2703088 09/09/16 07:31 AM
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Just a reminder. Keep a log of your time with D9, your efforts to be more involved with her meds, etc. and your efforts to improve yourself. Write down your goals and action items and follow through. This may be one of the most important projects you ever worked on in your life. Have a plan and execute.

And keep a log of your interactions with W when around D9. She could be picking fights with you in front of D9 to bait you to say horrible things that D9 can be asked about. Keep cool and don't say negative things about W around D9.

WW could setting up the custody battle, don't be blindsided.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
JRuss #2703096 09/09/16 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: JRuss
THis is entirely about a woman with emotional problems losing the control she's previously had over her daughter and, in turn, going further around the bend as that control slips away.



^ Yes, this exactly. You should ignore literally everything that comes out of your WW's mouth about her, your D or your relationship. Until she comes to you begging with tears and snot bubbles, you have to assume she's lying.

Never respond to her with justifications, excuses, or especially any contrition. Dont say "Im trying" or "I am working on myself" or "I wasnt perfect". That is giving her ammo and power to use against you. If you have to say anything you should say "Im sorry you feel that way". If you want to say anything else, you should think twice, count to 10, and then say "Im sorry you feel that way".

Ive seen this enough. She will start to go totally crazy when she is losing control, which is why you need to move fast and be on guard. Simple precautions (VAR on you at all times starting now) and not making major mistakes (if you say nothing but 'Im sorry you feel that way' then you wont make any!) and you will survive this rough patch and it will get infinitely better. Whether you are divorce or reconciled it will be better.

Go ahead and retain your L and have them write up papers now.

The reason I dont want your WW's L writing them up is because you are always on your back foot against your WW. I mean, she is the one lying, manipulating, and having an affair, but YOU are the one on the defensive, apologizing, bargaining and explaining. Right now, you love her but she hates you, so she has all the power. Her L is her L, and its literally his job to take all of your money and your D away from you.

If you let her and her L take the lead on this, she will come out ahead because, frankly, you will let her. And if you think you are going to settle custody in mediation with this woman? Sorry, but I dont think so. From this point on, in this fight your L is your champion.

I know its counter intuitive. But I think your best option is to either fully reconcile or divorce with your finances and relationship with your D intact. But right now you have ZERO control of which of these outcomes will happen. But you do have control over whether you are positioned well for divorce. And this is a zero sum game, the better your position, the worse is hers. And the worse her position is, the more likely she is to want to reconcile. So dont ever think you can bargain away money or custody to make her want to come back. Its the opposite that will happen.

fade #2703108 09/09/16 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: fade
And the worse her position is, the more likely she is to want to reconcile.

However as fade said this is a BAD reason to reconcile.
You don't want to buy your way into a relationship.

Control the only person you are able to control.

YOU!


Me-70, D37,S36
Cadet #2703133 09/09/16 10:27 AM
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lt0402 - I don't know what sort of phone you use but I have an app that will back up all my text messages which I then copy into the "cloud" just in case I need to be able to document to a L exactly what I said.

Good luck - you're in the middle of a tornado right now and "somebody's gonna lose a trailer".


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
AndrewP #2703146 09/09/16 11:38 AM
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Quick update. W was in bed by 1230 last night, so apparently her new sleep schedule has nothing to do w/ me. I woke up this am, went to exercise w/ my dad, and then went to work.

Got a long txt msg from W, which i'll post below this. Left work for about an hour and wrote a check to retain my L. Just got done filling out the paperwork. At this point I'm realizing the situation is too volatile to work through myself. (I know, a bit late)

Here's the msg from my W:

W: "If you truly feel that we can fix this, make the appt. w/ the MC. Seriously. It's unfair for me to refuse to try. I mean, it's not fair to D. We can't fix anything ourselves."

"Please don't respond to this and we can try to talk about this later. There's a reason why people do a trial S and a reason why the court won't consider people S until they live apart. As of now, we can't even have a conversation."

"D asked me again this am if you could live w/ D's friends dad. I'm writing this crying my eyes out bc I feel so trapped and also so sad for D. Please consider just temporarily living elsewhere until we can get MC to work through this. Please."

"If you keep saying I'm the one who needs to leave bc I made the choice, D is going to need a sitter after school when she's w/ you. It's not fair to D. We will do everything legally. At this moment, she has someone to take care of her. Ds routine doesn't need to change. Any legal agreement we make will obviously change if our sitch changes."

"Just think how it will make D feel about you if you force this and make us leave. bc I don't think a court will choose a sitter over a parent."

"Please stop saying this is my choice. You pushed D and I both this far, for so long. You treated us so horribly. I know you say it's all in the past, but it's still extremely present for us and you haven't changed a thing. Give D and I a reason to trust you. Just think about it."

"You lose no time w/ her and she won't have to go to a sitter. We go to MC and try to fix this and Ds life may not change at all. I'm not promising we can fix this, but right now it's this or we just stay miserable. Can you at least try to see it from our side?"

"Every time I've asked you why you treat D and I like this you always just say 'I don't know' and never make any changes. Don't you think it's better for us to be apart while we work through that w/o changing Ds life? Just consider it. Stop seeing this as my 'choice' and see that I don't feel like I have one."

That's it. Still think she's trying to leverage MC as a way to control things. Can't respond to everyone now, but will a bit later. I'm in a neutral/slightly angry place right now knowing she's probably trying to play me again.

I'm going to tell her i'll have my L draw up the S agreement. I'm filling out the documents right now. I haven't heard back on scheduling w/ my L yet for when we first meet but I'm going to bug them to make it next week.

I appreciate everyone here, both for the 2x4s and support. I really do feel like an idiot for believing she'd want to proactively do MC. I'm leaving the appointment on for the 26th for right now, but I may cancel it over the next week depending on where things go.

Who is this woman?


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2703165 09/09/16 12:54 PM
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I hope this goes without saying and that you are NOT considering moving out. IMHO W wants you out, so she can slap you with Divorce and custody papers, in HER favor.

You are NOT a bad father. (you may not be the father W thinks D9 should have, but that DOES NOT matter) I'm pretty confident when I say this (b/c my D is 10) D9 would tell you, mine did! Mine called me out on my BS when I talked to her nicely and calmly. If D9 had such a problem she would not want to be around you as you've heard from everyone already.

Glad you got your L and are drawing up papers.
I agree with Fade. You need to be one if not TWO steps ahead of W.

Brace yourself LT0402, this is just getting started and we are all pulling for you! We're here for you bud!


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
lt0402 #2703167 09/09/16 01:13 PM
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She made one comment without using D9 as the guilt card to pressure you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2703173 09/09/16 01:59 PM
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Wow. Pushing hard to get you out. You can bet she is doing that for a reason that is not in your best interest. She Lawyered up weeks ago, and I bet shortly after is when she started this talk about you moving out. Am I right?

Don't believe a single word in that text.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
sandi2 #2703206 09/09/16 06:07 PM
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Do NOT move out. She is bullying you and will put you in a spot you can't recover from. One of the biggest mistakes with this situation is that you move out which will then be changed into "abandonment"

I can tell you from direct experience that i had the WAW who had a secret PA and almost 9 months later still denies it and did text book what your wife is looking to do. "Get out", trying to leverage custody and the daughter talk track and we need space. Be strong, continue with your L and dont leave.


_________________________
Me-48
Spouse-WAW 52
Married for 10 years
D7
ILYBNILWY 7/15
Suspect EA/PA 12/15 No confirmation/denial
She files 1/2016
Working towards the Big D ...still in progress....
rich4j #2703213 09/09/16 07:19 PM
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Thanks all!

Sorry for the lack of response today. Busy day at work with me taking time out to drop off the retainer for the L.

I 100% will not be moving out and I appreciate your thoughts on this. I've told W I won't be leaving MY house and MY daughter and I absolutely mean this. (I'd WW can capitalize random words, so can I! smile )

GAL tonight with Ds friends dad who is getting S. He's out of house and in a hotel while waiting for his apartment lease to start. Nice guy but highly opinionated and not focused in the right direction. Tried to help point him the right way and offered him support and the opportunity to talk/get together whenever he needed. Played pool for a few hours. He drank a decent amount of beer and I drank coke. I'm rarely drinking now a days unless I know I won't be around W. Really don't miss it too much.

I did not tell him about my S. I still refuse to tell people until I've told my own D. But he tried to pry a little, so I'm guessing My W probably already told him. At this point maybe the world knows and I'm just being naive. I will not tell people until I've told D though.

Will respond to everyone tomorrow. Going to grab some sleep and try to recharge. Know that I appreciate all of you. You are helping me through some fairly serious mess and I'd be lost without each of you. I'm lucky to have found this place and all of you wonderful folks.

Thanks again and I'll post more tomorrow. MV, my number one task the next 2 days is to hammer together my plan and goals with the situation having changed.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
sandi2 #2703345 09/10/16 06:28 PM
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Sorry for the late responses. Been an ok day today but not a ton of time with D bc of her play date and sleepover.

JR, you are right. I'm realizing that my D is either not saying these things or D is telling my W what my W wants to hear. It really sunk in today when D was taking a break before her friend came over for a sleepover. W and D were on the couch and on iPad/iPhone beside each other. I came in and sat down on the other couch and D told W she wanted to sit beside me and got up and we snuggled and watched minecraft videos for 30 minutes. I don't think a D who wanted me gone would do that and we do that all the time. W just sat there and stared into space. I do wonder if Ws world is being shaken post custody talk.

Sandi, you are right. W does seem to be leveraging my feelings about D to push her own agenda. I bought it hook line and sinker before but not anymore. I spoke with my DB coach earlier today and we discussed how best to engage D about how she is feeling. D and I are going poke hunting tomorrow morning and I'll have a conversation with her then to make sure she's ok.

I see what you're saying about my response to my W. I'm trying to be empathetic but it must not be coming off that way. Definitely don't want to portray myself as guilty to my WW.

With that said, I'm realizing it's not me. It's taken awhile but I am starting to see that no matter what I do my W seems mad. I'm starting to see that she's conflicted herself and nothing I do can fix that for her. Per AndrewPs suggestion, I've started trying to view her with compassion instead of anger. It's helped immensely to get through things. I see my IC on Tuesday and want to get his take on MC with the latest goings on. I'm also thinking that my W won't put any effort in and it'll just be a venting session for her. The MC is recommended by my IC bc she is direct, firm, and can see through bs. If that's true, my W may not be able to use the MC sessions that way. We will see. W still has plenty of resentment towards me, though it's toned down from 3 months ago and I don't get the outright physical disrespect. I can still sense it's there though.

I know she's still wayward, in her mind at least. Just her comments around the OM the other day highlight that. She says I'm not talking to him right now and I won't go to his house while we are married. Oh, gee, thanks for that. So she's at "best" holding off on visiting OM and at worst she's gotten a lot better at hiding things. I was shocked to hear W say we are still married, i think that's part of her current psychological warfare campaign.

Coconut, yes, she had her L working on a S agreement. I think there's a good chance her L has told her that it's much easier to get more favorable custody if she can get me to leave. I definitely think W is trying to manipulate me and is using my D and the MC to do it. Carrot and a stick.

MV, thank you for the reminder. I'm keeping a log of my time with D. I'll start keeping one of when W tries to bait me into fights too. My W seems to be scheduling Ds time so she's away from both W and I. I find myself wondering if W is doing this towards some other purpose, but I can't deduce what it may be. I'm very cognizant of saying bad things to W in general. I'm letting all the spew come from her. I'm realizing that I'm a stronger person than W and I don't need to say those types of things.

Fade, unfortunately I'm running with the assumption everything she tells me is a lie or a manipulation. IC says not to do this but I don't see any way to protect myself and my D without assuming this. That said, after I view it through that lense I try to see analyze and see if it may not be, but I never really know.

Good advice on the "I'm sorry you feel that way". I'm adding that to my response list. I've no doubt I'll catch her spew before the weekend is over and will need to leverage that. I've retained my L now and will discuss a S agreement with them Monday. W has had hers awhile and may be close to finishing a S agreement (my fault for delaying retaining L) but even if she is I'll have my L write one up. I'm done playing defense. I won't proactively push our D forward, but I believe I can still take the initiative in this type of stuff.

I won't bargain away money or custody to get her back. If we get that far (which it appears we will) I'm under no impression those things will sway her favor. I'll be fair but firm with her. Consistent with my character and integrity.

Cadet, I agree. That thought was what made me so hesitant to accept doing MC with her, as I worried it was solely bc of her fears around losing custody of D. I don't want to be married to someone who is not with me bc of me. No thank you. I continue to focus on controlling my reactions and behavior and knowing I can't control those of my W. Frustrating at times, but reality. Have to accept that.

AP, I tried finding an app for that but couldn't. Am going to screenshot the messages and store them off my phone. Another great idea and much appreciated. Hoping the tornado doesn't rip my trailer off its cinder blocks.

Cheesyt, thank you. I am realizing I'm not the monster dad that W is saying I am. A month ago, I'd of listened to her and worried immensely about it. Now, with yalls help, I think I'm seeing her comments for what they are. I love being with my D and I believe my D loves being with me. Every vibe I get from D seems to be positive. We've had fun all summer and at times my W tells me D and I are spending "too much" time together. Why would D want to spend so much time with me and then say she wants me to move out? I'm afraid you're right on this thing just getting started. A lot more drama to be played out. I do find myself becoming stronger as this thing grinds on though. I think that strength is coming from seeing W for what she is, combined with me working to improve myself.

Sandi, yes, she is attacking my soft spots. She seems to be very good at identifying them and leveraging them against me. I will continue to strengthen my R with D so that her accusations will be so absurd they'll be laughable.

MV, she lawyered up around July 28th. The talk of me leaving began in earnest maybe 1.5 weeks ago. It's picked up steam and guilt since I told her I would settle for no less than 50% custody and if W wanted to leave the marital home I'd be more than happy to take care of D. W has taken the tact now of negotiation combined with manipulation I think. Unsure if she's being coached by L but I think it's a distinct possibility.

Rich, I'm going back through your story now. I went through a chunk of it when I first got here, but want to revisit it. Definitely not leaving my home or my D. No one will ever be able to accuse me of abandonment of my D or my M. That's not me.

Going to journal in another post as this is a long one. Thank you to everyone for being my rock over the past couple days!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2703348 09/10/16 06:54 PM
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Ok, now onto some journaling.

When I came home last night from my GAL, W and D were in mbr bed for their slumber party. I gave D a hug and kiss and told her goodnight. About 10 minutes later D asked W if she could sleep in her own room and so D went to her bed. After W went downstairs, I went to bed in my own bed.

Slept in this am instead of going to gym. Felt good to sleep. D woke up late and D and I did iPad in the bed before breakfast. W played on iPhone (noticed she has screen tilted away from us when typing something, don't really care at this point). Notice that W got a haircut and her hair is no longer below her shoulders, but is only to the top of her neck now. Looks really nice and it was the haircut she had when we started dating. Did not tell her that though.

Did breakfast. W and D went out to buy clothes for school and to go to build a bear for a Pokemon bear. I took the opportunity to talk to my DB coach and hit the gym. Was a good few hours.

D mentioned that W has told her she will get her a kitten around Christmas. This is a big deal bc D used to be allergic to pet dander, but has grown out of her cat allergy. I'm afraid this is W trying to bribe D to either get her to want to live with her or something else. Needless to say, W has had no conversation with me about getting a kitten. Tells me this is part of a plan she has that does not include me. Very wary of this.

I went out to pull weeds while D had her friend over. About an hour in, and jaunt as I was finishing, W comes out and tells me to stop. She tells me that me doing that is making her more angry and is not helping me or her then she walks away.

Backstory here is that I got fed up with W telling me I was doing the weeding and beds incorrectly and I let her take over about 1.5yrs ago (the wrong way to handle this I now realize). Well, I started doing this again in June and have done it every weekend since while she hasn't touched it. Today was the first day she's chosen to confront me on it. Needless to say, I finished what I needed to do and then went in and showered.

D and W were on the couch when I came down after my shower. Both on their iPad/iPhone. I sat down and D told W she wanted to sit with me. D comes over and we snuggle and watch minecraft videos until her sleepover friend shows up.

I go to the store bc I need groceries, then come back and make dinner. (Teriyaki salmon and rice, but on the outside grill this time!). D asks me to join hers and friends minecraft world for 5 minutes. W pulls me aside and says a 37yr old man doesn't need to be playing with D and her friend at a sleepover. I can maybe see this so I don't push back on her. D asks a few more times for me to join and I politely tell her she and friend should play and have fun. Still thinking about this one.

I went to do laundry and did not notice that Ds new school clothes were sitting in washer when I tossed mine in. W asked me not to do laundry this morning, but I'd assumed that by waiting until tonight would be ok. Turned on the laundry and then W makes a big deal about Ds stuff being in there. Somewhat my fault for not checking washer beforehand. I tell W and D I made a mistake and will check in the future. No apology p, but acknowledgement and ownership of a mistake.

Sitting here watching my college team tonight. Was planning on traveling to this game back in May, but cancelled those plans bc of all this. Wish I had not. My friends are there and it would really help to be out of here for a bit. Still hesitant to leave D for an extended period with W though.

We will see what tomorrow brings. No donuts! smile


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2703365 09/10/16 08:55 PM
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Do you really think your W was concerned that you were too old to play minecraft with D9? Make some coffee, you need to wake up from dream land. Remember, believe nothing she says and only half what she does. She is working every angle to put a wrench in your R with D9.

What mistake with the laundry did you make? Did you turn it on with the wrong hand? Why bother even talking with your W about these petty jabs. Weeds, laundry, etc. just ignore her entirely. No mistake, no apology, no comment, just whatever and move on. It's just more bait for you to admit what a louse you are. Don't fall for it, stop playing her game.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
mvgfwd2 #2703388 09/11/16 05:50 AM
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lt,

I just scanned the last three pages to get somewhat up to speed on your sitch. Your W is using all the same tactics and excuses that mine is. Major cake eating and manipulation of your D9 to get her way. Stand your ground and protect yourself and your D9. Your W wants out of the M fine, but that does not mean that you should not have equal time with your D9. Tons of BS thrown your way and I understand it is a lot to process as I am further ahead in the D process in my sitch.

I will follow your sitch closer as I feel that in order for you to get the time you deserve with your D, you, W and D9 will most likely have to go through a psychological evaluation as my family has.

You have received a lot of good feedback from others on hear that have supported me also, please heed their advice.


H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6
S-9,8,8,6,4
S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15
EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16
PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16
XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16
Finally moving forward...
mvgfwd2 #2703402 09/11/16 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: mvgfwd2
Do you really think your W was concerned that you were too old to play minecraft with D9? Make some coffee, you need to wake up from dream land. Remember, believe nothing she says and only half what she does. She is working every angle to put a wrench in your R with D9.

What mistake with the laundry did you make? Did you turn it on with the wrong hand? Why bother even talking with your W about these petty jabs. Weeds, laundry, etc. just ignore her entirely. No mistake, no apology, no comment, just whatever and move on. It's just more bait for you to admit what a louse you are. Don't fall for it, stop playing her game.


Great advice here. It's hard to stay on top of it when she goes on and on and on daily. But, do your best to ignore. You didn't do anything wrong. Especially when it comes to playing minecraft. Hey, it might be creepy for a 37yr old man to play minecraft with kids....until you factor in he is the FATHER of one of them! That's just complete insanity. Keep playing with your child!!


Me: 35 W: 32
S: 4
T: 6 M: 4
Physical Separation official: 5/21
Currently: DR/DBing, Focusing on me and son

Cheating on a good person is like throwing away a diamond and picking up a rock.
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Quick journaling. Will respond a bit later.

Took D to the park for 2hrs of Pokemon. We ended up knee deep in the river trying to catch minnows most of the time and only did a little Pokemon. Had a blast!

Took the chance to ask D how things were going. I asked her if anything I was doing that was bothering her. She said no. I asked how I was doing with listening and keeping promises (my 2 biggest issues with D pre BD) and she told me I was doing awesome since BD. I apologized for those pre BD issues and told her if she ever had anything to tell me I would never be upset with her for telling me. I'd be happy that she wanted to tell me.

Then, I asked if there was anything I could be doing better and she said no, then thought about it and said maybe. She said I could do a better job of listening to mommy. D said when I don't listen to mommy, she yells. And when she yells at me, sometimes she yells at D too. D told me she doesn't like being yelled at.

Made me sad, but it's good she's comfortable enough to tell me that. I told D I'd work on listening, which I need to do anyway. I also asked D if she ever thought I was crowding her space. D said sometimes mommy and her feel like im following them around the house. Told D I'd work on that too and to please tell me if I'm doing it and I'll back off. I did tell her that if she wanted me around her to just ask too. She said ok and we kept playing.

Seemed honest from my D. Didn't tee it up by including W in the questions. Just want to get this down before I head to the gym. D headed to friends house and W going out to shop. Ds dinner with a friend cancelled for tonight so more time with her! No GAL today for me, schedule didn't work out.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
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MV, W says I have been using too much detergent in the high efficiency washing machine and am causing the motor to die. I researched it, did the process it said to get it working again, and voila we are back to doing laundry.

I get what you are saying on the spew and driving a wedge bt D and I. Am going to ignore and address when necessary. I did make a mistake putting my laundry in with Ds and I owned it. But for the small crap she complains about ill neither apologize nor own it as its not my fault.

RSG, good point. D and her friends always ask me to hop on the iPad and play minecraft with them when they do their sleepovers. I try to limit the time so they have their own fun, but I won't let W cut it off completely. Will monitor and make sure there's some balance.

JK, yeah, it can be overwhelming at times. Always coming at me since we are in the same house. Heeding all advice here and I won't back down from my 50/50 split of D. I hope it doesn't come down to a psychological exam, but if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. I will always stand for the best interests of my D.

Thanks guys!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2703533 09/12/16 04:07 AM
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Sandi, yes, she is attacking my soft spots. She seems to be very good at identifying them and leveraging them against me. I will continue to strengthen my R with D so that her accusations will be so absurd they'll be laughable.


Can you see how your W has turned her R with D into something unhealthy? Can you see how she uses her D as the war head with everything you do or don't do? Instead of keeping the M issues just between you and her........she twists things to make it about D, or D and her.

I see both of you uses the D as a weapon to hurt the other one. The parent's R with the D is comparable to a competition. Which parent scores the most points winning D's favor today? And, don't think for a minute D9 is not wise to it, and won't use it.

How about you write two or three posts that you don't mention D9. And, in those two or three posts, write only the statements your W makes that does not refer to D in some manner. Then, go back and read your posts. I just want you to see what I see.

I realize our children are the center of our lives while raising them, but they should not be the center of our MR. In about 8 years she will be gone from home, then what's left between the two adults?

You are doing nothing (that I can see) about your W's disrespect toward you. Instead, you use your R with D as the means to combat the words of your W. That is an unhealthy motivation for improving your R.

So, let's hear you post with adding anything about the D.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2703710 09/12/16 04:33 PM
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I know you've lived in crazy land so long that it starts to feel normal, but I hope you are finally starting to see just how crazy WW has become. I don't know if she's always been like this or morphed in recent years. Do you remember me telling you how off things were with D and the whole meds thing? You seem to have gotten that down but now it's the whole "D and I think" crap. And it's just that - CRAP! WW does it to make it two against one. That is parent alilanation and the courts are loath to it. WW uses the same MO on all if this. When it was the meds thing you were not doing it correctly as if an hour off was life and death. Now it's the same with the washing machine, or cooking or sleep overs. Are you getting this is all just crazy talk? I hate to say it but WW has serious issues - SERIOUS ISSUES! Your L has to be brought up to speed about all of this as it has to be managed. D9 is very impressionable and you have to get on top of WW potentially allianating her against you and don't think that can happen. A court appointed C can quickly get to the bottom of it. They see it all the time.

My biggest concern for you is others here want to save their M, but you may well be married to a crazy person. That is a lot to come to VIPs with. The first step is seeing it for what it is. This is not you. Thus us not a problem with D9. Don't allow her to turn your life to nonsense because if given the chance that's exactly what she will do!


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
DonH #2704057 09/14/16 06:30 AM
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LT0402 where have you been? everything ok?


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
sandi2 #2704130 09/14/16 11:02 AM
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Hey all, sorry, it's been a very busy 2 days at work as we've had clients in town. It's been a great distraction from this whole thing, but very tiring and I'm finding the more tired I get, the harder it is to keep level. Bleh...

Cheesyt, doing ok, appreciate you checking on me! Running somewhat neutral right now, but have had some ups and downs over the past couple days during the quiet times.

Sandi, I absolutely see how my W has intertwined her own life way too much w/ my Ds. She is using my R w/ D to try to get to what she wants. I'm currently discounting everything she tells me w/ regards to my D, though I know I was not in the past. To what end she is doing this, I'm not sure, but it doesn't really matter at this point.

I agree that I still at times will pull how W is going to hurt D into the discussions we have. I've tried to cut it back based on the feedback you all gave me a few weeks ago after the blowup. I'm now only trying to selectively mention the instability for D when I believe it can help to shake Ws fog. Maybe that's a completely incorrect approach. I do not want D in the middle of Ws and my issues.

I know my D is aware there are bad things going on. Her comments to me when I ask highlight that. I think I'm scoring points with D that go towards building my R w/ her and not w/ my W. My intent of being a better father is not to win my W back, but to solidify my R w/ D so that we can survive and thrive, regardless of the outcome of my MR.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I realize our children are the center of our lives while raising them, but they should not be the center of our MR. In about 8 years she will be gone from home, then what's left between the two adults?


I completely agree, and to be honest, this frightened me even before the BD. As W and I drifted apart, the only bond holding us together seemed to be our D. In retrospect I should have keyed off this and been proactive in fixing our other bonds, but unfortunately I did not. I find myself still worried about this, even were we to work hard at MC. It feels hopeless that these bonds can be repaired, but perhaps that's more a function of where we are now, than where we could be. I don't know. The uncertainty of everything is both physically and emotionally draining at times. I won't go back to a MR that's centered around my D. It's not fair to my W, my D, or me.

I've addressed the obvious disrespect from W by standing up to her. This has stopped the eye rolling, the joking insults w/ my D, and the exasperated sighs. However, she still has a palatable level of contempt/resentment most of the time. She may or may not be communicating w/ OM still, though she says she is not. I'm finding it difficult to address the contempt/resentment piece of things w/ her.

B/C of that, all my focus has been on improving my R w/ D (regardless of Ws attitude about it) and being consistent w/ things I need to fix about myself. If W chooses to stew in her contempt, it seems like I can't change that. But I can be the person I want to be and have an awesome R w/ my D.

My next couple posts won't have anything about D in them! smile

Don, yes, I see it more clearly now. I also realize that I'm not fully out of crazy land yet. It seems like everyday I have an epiphany that something else I'd taken as normal is, in fact, crazy. It's almost like it never ends and is very frustrating.

You were extremely helpful on the meds not being life and death, like my W was making them out to be. It's one of the things that helped me see that what W is feeding me is a lot of crap. My IC thinks my W has obsessive issues and will have a very hard time dealing w/ that. Now that I'm through w/ our client visit my focus is shifting back to the L path and making sure I'm firm there. I don't want my W to alienate me from my D and I believe the more quality time D and I spend together, the less likely that is to occur. My R w/ D really is so much deeper than it was pre-BD and I'm loving it.

High level, I take nothing my W says now as the truth. Everything needs to be parsed for a sanity check before I even begin to think it may be the truth. I realize that my W has some issues that may or may not preclude us from fixing things. It's not in my control to fix Ws issues, but I can continue to focus on mine and making myself a better Father/Man. I'm going to keep the MC appointment and judge after the first couple visits if it's worthwhile. However, I'm also going to be prepared w/ my L in case this thing is headed for a negative outcome and/or escalates w/ W doing crazy stuff w/ my D.

Journaling...

Spent most of the day Monday finalizing a presentation at work. Monday evening we entertained clients at dinner and I got home just after D was asleep. Forgot my house key so W had to open the door for me. Nothing said by her to me and she just walked back to the family room and the TV/iphone. I told her goodnight, got no response, and went to bed.

Had my IC visit on Tues am. Talked about my worries that W was not bought into MC and was using as a lever for something else I didn't know about. Also talked about W using D against me and also W picking at me for things I was doing. IC thinks W sees me changing and it makes her extremely upset. Also thinks she could have an obsessive issue and that's adding to the extremeness of it all. IC says W shows cracks every now and then that she can warm up, but she shoves me away when she realizes that may be happening. IC says to get used to this roller coaster behavior for awhile. Told IC about my conversation w/ D around how she feels and he says my D is spot on w/ her observations (smart kid! smile ). D has pieced together that when W shuts me off, W is unable to not shut D off too. Hence when W is angry w/ me, that anger in part rolls onto D as well at times. It's really sad and frustrating actually.

Tuesday was packed with meetings so not a lot of time to focus on my situation. Got an email from a friend in a neighborhood beside ours saying the previous day someone had tried to abduct a 6yr old from a yard in their neighborhood. (Ugghhh...) Forwarded to W and asked her to pls let me know she got it. She said yes and she had heard the same. Told W that it's stating the obvious, but we should be outside when D is out there and she responded w/ "Duh". Told her that I worry about D and asked if she'd talked to her about it. W just said she did and she's fine.

Left work at 5 to spend about 30 minutes w/ D prior to my GAL activity that evening. I play in a pool league w/ a few family members and some other friends during the spring and fall. It's a good group of quality people and it's fun being out with them every Tuesday night. Did that and got home around 10:30. Came in, said goodnight to W w/ no response, and went to bed.

Noticed this morning that an amount of money had been pulled from our checking account and put towards a credit card. Am assuming this is the card that W opened. Sent W a message saying to please add this to our mint.com account so I can track w/ our other finances. no response. I'll need to address this when I get home as I told her I would not pay for a card I could not see the charges for.

Haven't been to the gym since Sunday and that + the late nights Monday/Tuesday are wearing on me. Sat through 2 hrs of meetings today where I wasn't presenting and found my mind wandering to thoughts of W and OM. Been awhile for that, but put me in a slightly negative place.

Doing the gym tonight before I head home. That should help w/ the sleep. Will do some time w/ my D as well which I'm really looking forward to. D wants to make a 3D pokemon by folding up different sizes of paper. Started last night but still have some work to do. Should be fun!

Off to call my L and see when I can meet w/ them to discuss this stuff again. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and feedback.

Sandi, I forgot to mention. Unsure I can post anything my W says now as it all includes her and my D against me. Will try though. thank you!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2704140 09/14/16 11:24 AM
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Sounds good lt! I like how you stood up about the credit card!! Keep going to the gym, it helps me so much!! You are doing great!


W:42 M:48
T:9 yrs M:1yr
BD: Feb 2016
EA Confirmed: Feb 2016/PA July 2016
D: Feb 2017

hawker #2704229 09/14/16 04:45 PM
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Thanks hawker. W never responded to my message but has added the card to our account.

Got stuck in traffic and didn't make it to the gym tonight. 3 full days with no gym time and it's wearing on me. Have to go run tomorrow am.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2704430 09/15/16 02:34 PM
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Back to school night this evening. Headed home early so W can head over for it. W has signed up to be a room mom. Unsure how she will have time if she's looking for a job. I was working on the home computer earlier in the week and noticed she'd had her resume up. I'm hoping she's done some work to it, but who knows.

Nothing new of note. No messages bt W and I the past 2 days. Some "family" time yesterday afternoon. No real talking by us since Tuesday though, which was via text.

Finishing up initial L paperwork. Feel like I'm 2 days late on getting through this. Going to send tomorrow to L and then we will meet to start a plan. Work stuff pushed me back this week and I'm feeling like I'm losing focus on this stuff this week.

Need to refocus. Expecting W to hit me with something this weekend. Every time there's a lull she pulls something out. I feel like I need some contact with her, otherwise nothing changes. I know nothing good comes from that though.

Still on for MC in 1.5 weeks. We will see if she bails on it or not.

Trying to stick to Sandis request. How am I doing? smile


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2704500 09/15/16 09:19 PM
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doing great LT0402 way to stick with sandi's request. I personally like your novels with D but I'm sure there's a very good reason for sandi's request.


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
cheesyt #2704753 09/16/16 06:33 PM
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Thanks cheesyt! Swinging over to your thread shortly bc I've got some thoughts for you. Just haven't been able to post them yet.

So only interaction with W today was a text saying our washing machine is dieing. Subtle intonation is that it's my fault. Responded that we can discuss options this weekend. Hate to buy a nice new washer if we are just moving in the spring. We will see.

"Family" time tonight. W on her iPhone. Keeps talking about how she is talking to her bff. Overplaying it on her part. Seen this before when she was lying but I'm not mind reading, just noticing.

W got mad bc I was "sniffling" and snuggling with D. The weather is changing here and it's messing with my sinuses a bit. Normal. Told her that. She started getting mad so I removed myself from the situation.

Bedtime. I send W this text bc I'm in no mood for confrontation tonight or this weekend.

Me: "Ok. A few thoughts

1) We need to have those conversations when it's just us or when we are less emotional about it.

2) I'm going to keep up with the weeds this weekend. Not bc I don't think you can do it, but bc its been part of my routine all summer. I won't touch anything else.

I'll make a list of stuff in the yard and we can split it up and discuss this weekend.

3) I'm beat up from a long, rough week at work and need to recharge tonight. Are you ok with talking about the washing machine tomorrow morning?

4) if you want to talk, hang out, watch a movie this weekend I am open to it. If not then I will continue to respect your space.

5) I'd like to do some outdoors stuff with D on Sunday so please don't schedule anything for the morning.

Talk to you in the morning. Good night."

W: " Leave the yard alone please stop making me repeat that"

W: "please stop"

W: "You don't need to make a list why do you insist on only doing the one thing I keep asking you not to do??"

Yard appears to be her hot button currently. I've been keeping it up with the weeds all summer.

Im not sure if it's bc I've been running on empty all week or what, but I've cared a lot less about what W does this week. I find myself less concerned about keeping her and more concerned about custody. I'm not sure if that's good or bad or me just getting apathetic towards W. I'm opening up to the fact that letting her go may just be the right thing for both of us. Who knows if that'll last, but it's where I am right now at this point in time.

I got all the paperwork in front of my L today and they want to meet for a sitdown next Friday before W and I go to MC the following Monday. I told the L explicitly that I'd like to reconcile, but im not sold W is doing MC with that goal in mind. I also told them about the custody conversation with W as well as my desire to have it be at least 50/50. We will see what comes from that.

I found myself more focused on work this week bc it was a challenging and social week. Those types of things really bring out the fire in me and it was good to feel focused there for the first time in months. That said, I can't let it drain me like it has in the past. I need to keep my balance of work and life that I've established the past 3 months.

Its wierd but I'm finding myself more attracted to my W physically right now than I have in some time. No way I could act on anything but it's strange to see it happening as I move further away from her emotionally. Just an observation and part of this wierd mood change I've had during this wierd week.

Did the gym this afternoon and that helped. Running in the am and then chores in the pm tomorrow. These posts are dreadfully boring but very level headed without D in them.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2704920 09/17/16 05:28 PM
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Journaling


Gym this morning to run before everyone woke up. Really feel great after I start the day with exercise. Been slacking the past week, need to pick it back up.

Came home, some "family" time before a play date. Went shopping for a baby gift (love the diaper genie!) for a girl who works for me, dropped some stuff at goodwill, and grabbed some worms for fishing tomorrow morning with D.

Did lunch at home with everyone. W made pizza for the kids, but offered me none. Gave the extra pizza to the other mom when she picked up her kid from the play date. No problem, was better off eating a healthy lunch anyways.

W pointedly asked me if I'd checked the baby registry before getting the baby gifts. (W doesn't know who they are for as she has never met the folks that work for me). I tell her they don't have one but I got a gift receipt. W makes some comments on how I can't just buy a gift without knowing it's something they want. I just tell her they don't have a registry. W says you don't have to explain it to me bc I'm not asking about it. Odd, but seems the norm lately.

Other mom, who is one of the moms S as of last weekend, comes to get her D. She brings in her D6 and we all chat for a few before the kids leave. Her D6 has a big knot on her head from running into something. I tell her, wow that's as big as a meteor, you must be really tough. Her D6 and the other mom laugh. W days "wow, that was such a mean thing to say". I ignore it. I help D and her friend transform an old school transformer we have (man I miss those old, well built toys) from a stegosaurus to a robot. W says that I'm keeping them from leaving and to stop. I finish showing them and they play for 5 more minutes while W and other mom talk (thought they had to leave...) and then everyone leaves.

W and D Have to go get a wig for Ds Halloween costume. Before they go, W jumps on me and tells me I can't speak like that to other people's kids (comment about the knot on her head). Says a few other things about it and I just tell W and D I'm leaving and head back to the gym to lift some weights. When I get to the gym I send this to W via text:

Me: "Please don't lecture me W. I'm neither your child nor your employee. I'm open to your thoughts/feedback on anything at any time. There's a better way for us to discuss it though."

W: " Then stop making rude comments about other people's children. You should know that isn't ok. I'm not going to stop speaking my mind"

Me: "I want you to speak your mind"

W: "You stood in the playroom ignoring a parent telling a child repeatedly that it was time to go because you were too busy playing. Don't expect me not to be aggravated "

Trying not to be pulled into a fight with the W. She continues to try to provoke though. I will stand up for myself when needed but I won't get down in the dirt with her. A little tiring though. W has always taken pride in being an "open book" with her thoughts. Unsure why bc she bottles up more than anyone I know. She doesn't realize that were she to speak her thoughts in a more constructive way, she'd have fixed a lot on her end that's been broken with us. Instead I find myself fixing my issues that led to this while she does nothing.

D has another sleepover here tonight. W heading up to shower. I'm going to read a chunk of gottman tonight. Expecting no interaction with W. Wake up tomorrow morning, get in my run and do all this over again. Much more D time tomorrow. Looking forward to that. Realizing that I need to setup some GAL time with friends soon.

I do have a GAL next thurs with a few guys from work. Taking one of my guys out bc his brother just passed away and we are trying to give him a distraction. Should be good to get together and help support him. Really feel horrible that he's having to go through that as he and his brother were very close. We will take him out and help get his mind off it. Amazing how life happens.

Keeping my head down and grinding through all this lately. I miss my W but I realize I don't need her. Not expecting a lot from MC but maybe I'll be surprised. Not holding out hope.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2705018 09/18/16 06:44 AM
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lt0402 - that's a lot of consistent spew from W. If I remember your sitch (it's been a while since I read back) she's always been controlling and domineering?

You might have been better off not bothering with the text to W from the Gym although I have no clue what the right tactic could be. It would almost seem as if you need to have a knock-down drag-out argument to set boundaries but that may be a crappy idea. She's certainly not respecting you right now though.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
AndrewP #2705055 09/18/16 10:35 AM
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You can only get a partial sense of who someone is from what they write here. As I think I've said on these and other boards in the past, I'm usually a very good judge of people - unless I'm dating them if course. smile. From all I can tell, one of your main 180s may be to start to stand up to her. She treats you like a child. You don't do a thing correctly, are not capable of taking care of D or her meds, don't know how to talk to people or other kids, don't do the laundry correctly. The list could go on. What do you do well in her eyes? Anything? She has zero respect for you. I may not be accurate in all of this but feel I've got a solid take. Others can confirm or not. If I am right, how are you someone she wants? No respect, do nothing right, can't be trusted. That comes up over and over that she can't trust you. You have to then turn that around not only for her but the future. Get a set of balls and stand strong. It's almost like you have become the beaten down abused person who has lost his self asteam and have started to believe her crap. As if when she says you don't know how to take care of D you believe her!

Does this make any sense to you? What about others reading? Am i correct here or am I off? Because the truth is she's the one who maybe doing many of the things she accuses you of! I even wonder if deep down she knows this, hates it about her own self and projects it to you to make HER feel better.

Food for though. Hope it helps!


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
lt0402 #2705067 09/18/16 12:05 PM
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I completely agree with Andrew & Don. And, I think the only thing she'll do at MC is run you down. When a woman has lost all respect and attraction for her H, then every little thing he does, or doesn't do, irritates her through & through. He could just sit in the same room and not say a word......and she would be irritated about how he was breathing.

It may just be me, but I don't see texting her, and asking to please not treat you like a child, as being very effective. For your W, it's an invitation to knock you down some more. When texting, she doesn't see your facial expression, body language, and tone of voice. When a man uses his manly voice & body language in the right manner.......it is much, much more effective than a text.

I suppose it may have been a step for you, in standing up to her. But texting is just not the same as standing nose to nose and having no fear of her. You have to lose the fear.

Ignoring her doesn't work, either. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounded as if you were being passive aggressive. You were focused on what your W was saying, and appeared as if you were trying to get back at her (by showing her you would not heed what she was saying) and continued building the toys and playing with the kids. That may have been the right action to take, except you seem to be ignoring the other mother saying they needed to leave. So the end result may not have left you looking very attractive. IDK, since I wasn't there. But if that was the case, can you see what I am trying to point out?

I don't want you to feel I'm picking you apart, like your W does. I use this to illustrate and hope you can see the difference in a man using passive aggressive behavior and one who actually stands face to face and deals with his disrespectful W.

Okay, so you have asked her not to treat you that way. What will you do if she ignores your request? At this point, I think you should start making statements about how you will not tolerate that kind of treatment. She is not going to respect any of your requests, until she sees there are consequences for it.

It is easy for men with the nice guy syndrome to ignore disrespect. What is hard for them is confronting their W and enforcing effective boundaries. You are tying to by-pass doing this by finding a MC to fix things. I think you would do better by studying about the NGS.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
sandi2 #2705106 09/18/16 03:21 PM
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Not a lot of time to post. Will respond more later. I feel trapped bc D has asked me not to aggravate mommy. So I try not to confront W in front of D. Maybe instead of texting I'll wait until W and I are alone and address it. Or maybe I pull W into another room to discuss.

Ws moods seem to be wearing on D and I'm trying to avoid adding to that stress. Thoughts?


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2705109 09/18/16 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
Not a lot of time to post. Will respond more later. I feel trapped bc D has asked me not to aggravate mommy. So I try not to confront W in front of D. Maybe instead of texting I'll wait until W and I are alone and address it. Or maybe I pull W into another room to discuss.

Ws moods seem to be wearing on D and I'm trying to avoid adding to that stress. Thoughts?


I've said it before and I'll say it again--get that child a counselor.

A good counselor will help your D understand that adults need to be responsible for their own feelings, and he/she will be a neutral listening ear to help her sort things out.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Rose888 #2705219 09/19/16 07:42 AM
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Well, my take is that she treats you like dirt, she is having sex with another guy, she lives at home where you pay for everything, and she gets to order you around and bitch at you at will. And the only way you can stand up for yourself is to try to explain, defend, or apologize in a text message. No wonder she has no respect for you.

But my question is why do you even care if someone like that respects you. I want to be respected by people I respect. If terrible people dont like me, maybe I am doing something right! I know you still love her, but right now your WW is being a terrible person.

My suggestion purely from a divorce perspective is to say "sorry you feel that way" and then completely ignore her.

If you really want to win respect I have seen only one sure-fire way for that to happen. Its when you move on and thrive without her, and she is left with all the same problems but cant take it out on you, and all of your financial/family/household/emotional support she took for granted is now gone. When that happens it always seems to me that WW's suddenly have lots of new-found respect for their cast away husbands.

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Ok, sorry all, had a busy day yesterday w/ D. Will journal on it a bit later.

AP, though my Ws words to me are few and far between, what does come out is 90% spew or controlling language. She seems to have some obsessive behavioral traits which lead her to try control things to alleviate the anxiety. It seems as though I've let her go off the deep end w/ it in the past and now I'm paying for it. I 100% agree that she does/is not respecting me right now.

Don, I hear you on being a good judge of those we date! smile On the 180, I'd been fairly consistent with standing up to her the past 2 months. I found it led to me constantly doing battle with her, even over small things. So, I've been trying to pick my battles to address her spew. My more recent concern is how the spew and my response to it are wearing on my D. She's voiced to me multiple times that it's bothering her, a lot. She's effectively asked me to quit poking the beehive with a stick.

I think you're spot on w/ your observation that my W treats me as though I'm her child. Whatever I do, or don't do, she is highly critical of. I honestly could not tell you what she believes I do well. The only indication I've gotten from her in the past few months is that I'm a good person, a bad husband, and an even worse dad. Even that I had to read in the messages b/t her and the OM before I confronted her. I know that I don't have her trust, as she has mentioned this to me repeatedly. I'm not really sure what at this point would gain back that trust.

What I have been doing is making sure that my R w/ my D is on a more solid footing. I believe there's much more trust there b/t D and I, which was lacking before BD. I don't believe a word coming from my W about how my D feels towards me. I know, based on how D and I interact and talk, that it's not true. D and I did our weekly "check-in" talk w/ each other this weekend and we are both happy w/ each other. D thinks my listening to her and not breaking promises is going great. Only issue D had is that I need to listen better to mommy and stop fighting mommy about me pulling the weeds.

Trying to be balanced in how I address my Ws disrespect. The old approach of fighting her on every disrespectful point seemed to be what W wanted to happen as she was picking fights w/ me non-stop. I do agree though that I'd fallen into believing her thoughts about me and had let her leverage that to control me. I'm realizing it now, w/ yours and everyone's help, and am actively trying to address, I'm just not 100% there on how best to do it w/ the other constraints (i.e. Ds stress level, W wanting to fight).

Using the weeds as an example. I've done them all summer. I believe she hates me doing that bc it's one of the things I slacked on pre-BD and it shows I'm working on changing things. She didn't say anything until recently about having an issue w/ me doing it. The options, as I see them, are to 1) do them anyway and then have a large confrontation w/ her, 2) don't do them and retreat from what I believe is my responsibility (not a chance), 3) make a list of chores, sit down w/ her to allocate them, and then do them (she will fight through this as well and it will lead to a large confrontation). Right now I'm leaning towards #1, but I'm afraid it gets me further from my goals. No idea how to approach stuff like this as she doesn't compromise or work to find a solution together. she just seems to want to stonewall and get me back into my old routines (i.e. the reason she's trying to S and D)

DonH, your thoughts are always helpful and always appreciated! w/o you I'd still be worried about being off by 5 minutes on the allegra! smile I do worry that there's a bit of Stockholm syndrome living in me right now though.

Sandi, I'm concerned on that in MC as well. I've told myself though that I'm using the first couple sessions as a gauge of what she's thinking. If it's spew and nothing close to trying to actually fix our M then it's a waste of time for me. If she won't put in the effort outside of the sessions, then it's a waste of time for me. She may just be checking off a box that she tried, but truthfully if that's the case, it won't affect me. I'm already setup for the fact that her agreeing to MC is a smokescreen for something else. Sad, but I don't get her motivation for it and my gut says it's not to fix our M. IC sees it slightly differently, but who knows.

The text was my attempt to have the conversation away from my D. In reality, it was probably a combination of that + some amount of avoidance of the conflict a face to face brings. While I've gotten better at standing strong in front of my W, there is still anxiety at times when I'm caught off guard. It's proving difficult to keep my walls up 100% of the time around her. When I have confronted her in a calm, but firm manner face to face, she has a much different attitude/response. Maybe that's the approach to continue taking. Even the few times I've gotten really angry and left the situation, she's been much more docile/amenable after those situations. It's almost like she's monitoring me to see how i'll react bc she knows she's crossed a line.

On the situation w/ the other mom, I honestly never heard her say it was time to go. She may have an I missed it, but who knows. All I heard was my W telling me to stop playing w/ them and I decided I'd continue to show them how to put the transformer together until it was done (maybe 30 seconds or so). In hindsight I probably should have told W that I'd stop as soon as the stupid robot was together. Regardless, I think W would have been mad either way for me "disobeying" her. I do see what you are trying to point out though. I do still have some passive aggressive moments that I need to remove from things. Bleh.

I definitely want you to pick me apart, and I definitely do know it comes from a good place w/ all of you. No offense taken on this end at all! This is the feedback I need to fix my issues and rebuild myself to be a better man. It allows me better introspection and the more honest you all are w/ me the more valuable the feedback is. I'd be lost w/o everyone's help/feedback here.

Sandi, when you say I should start telling her I won't tolerate that kind of treatment, how do I approach it if she continues. Do I just walk away from it and refuse to speak w/ her until she shows she can do it constructively? At times I do feel like a deer in the headlights when she continues to come at me. Just not sure how to lay on the consequences besides removing myself from the situation (the only thing I can control).

Will read up on NGS some more. Definitely having a hard time effectively confronting and enforcing boundaries for the large amount of spew she creates. Finding I always need to be on my guard, very tiring.

Rose, you're right. I need to get D in front of a counselor. I was waiting until we visit the MC to see what W is up to before doing that though. W is very anti IC for my D, but I've told her we need to do it regardless. W said we needed to tell D about S before D went to an IC. If that's still the case post-MC then i'll call her bluff and we can tell D about the S. At this point my W threatening to S from me doesn't have the same weight it once did. I'm more concerned about the custody side of things. What W does is out of my control, so I'm mainly focused on D and myself.

Thanks to all of you for the 2x4s and thoughts. I'd thought I was doing better in standing up for myself but the above, as well as a few small things yesterday, has me realizing I need more work. I desperately need some GAL as I've been lacking there post-MC talk and it shows. Feel like I'm falling back into old routines and that's not where I want to be. I'm just not sure how to address my W when she will not budge on anything. Do I just do it anyway and create massive amounts of tension? Very open to thoughts on all of the above. thanks everyone, you are all so very much appreciated!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2705265 09/19/16 11:13 AM
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Lt...I know its hard not being Mr. Nice guy, it feels so strange but we have to do it for ourselves!! It sounds like she finds every little thing to run you down! That stinks!! Get those boundaries set and stick with them! Again, sorry about ur Redskins ha


W:42 M:48
T:9 yrs M:1yr
BD: Feb 2016
EA Confirmed: Feb 2016/PA July 2016
D: Feb 2017

lt0402 #2705277 09/19/16 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Sandi, when you say I should start telling her I won't tolerate that kind of treatment, how do I approach it if she continues.


That would come under the heading of boundaries. You would make a statement something like, "I will not be treated with disrespect in front of our daughter or other people. If you continue to disrespect me, then I will ___________________".

Fill in the blank with your action. Remember, it has to be something that will be effective enough to make her think twice before she shows disrespect for you in front of others again. You may have to tell her that you will not stay in a MR where you are not respected. But then, you'll have to be tough enough to back it up, if she tests you.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
hawker #2705285 09/19/16 12:43 PM
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There is no reason to link counseling for your daughter with telling her anything else. She is already affected by the tension. It's not as if you are talking about a kid who has I idea there is a problem. Your wife claims your daughter wants you to move out!

Be strong on this. It's important.


Me: 44
H: 44
Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10
Together/Married: 22 years
H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16
H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Rose888 #2705292 09/19/16 01:20 PM
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I guess I'm a little more direct than some. If my wife tells me to stop pulling weeds, or whatever I'm doing that I think needs to be done, while at the same time telling me we are separated I would just say something like:

"I'm sorry you feel that way but since you want to separate what you say about what I do is no longer a concern of mine. If you want to talk with me please do so in a respectful tone or it will be ignored."

Then I would just be quiet and look at her in a calm but confident manner. If she spews I would just walk away. If she walks away I would go back to what I was doing. If she changes her tone I would listen and try to have a rational conversation. No need to get heated or have an argument. You can control how you react and if it escalates or not. Don't let her control the tone of any interaction. It's rare that someone will keep up the bad behavior after they know it has no effect.


Me:49 W:45
M:19 T:22
EA confirmed and ended 8/2014
S:19,17 D:9,5
mvgfwd2 #2705794 09/21/16 06:23 PM
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Owe responses to everyone. Will post tomorrow am. Apologize for being offline. Hectic couple of days at work.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2706125 09/23/16 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: fade
But my question is why do you even care if someone like that respects you. I want to be respected by people I respect. If terrible people dont like me, maybe I am doing something right! I know you still love her, but right now your WW is being a terrible person.


Fade, you're correct. With everyone else on this planet I would simply say that I don't care and move on. It shouldn't be, but it does seem to be more difficult to fully let her go like that though. I've reached a point now where I realize that this thing getting fixed is a long shot. And to be honest, I'm finding I don't care how she feels about me as much now as I have in the past. It's a strange place to be in. Having to see her in the same house and bed everyday and deal w/ all of her childish reactions makes it even stranger. I'm still working to fix myself and strengthen my R w/ D, but I can see a life w/o my W now.


Originally Posted By: fade
My suggestion purely from a divorce perspective is to say "sorry you feel that way" and then completely ignore her.


I've got this queued up in my repertoire of responses, but I haven't had a situation recently w/ which to use it. W has been very much out of my face the past few days. It seems like some form of validation w/o agreeing combined w/ this would work most of the time. thoughts?

Originally Posted By: fade

If you really want to win respect I have seen only one sure-fire way for that to happen. Its when you move on and thrive without her, and she is left with all the same problems but cant take it out on you, and all of your financial/family/household/emotional support she took for granted is now gone. When that happens it always seems to me that WW's suddenly have lots of new-found respect for their cast away husbands.


Having trouble with fully moving on w/ us being in house S. We seem to fall back into old routines and I need to be fully engaged to keep that from happening. A lot of energy, and work has also been pulling some focus away as of late. Going to work to re-focus this weekend.

Hawk, she sure does poke at every small thing. To be honest, a lot of my non response at times is trained I think, as I've become a little numb to the constant criticism over the years. Skins should beat the Giants this weekend!

Sandi, I have a tough time w/ determining a consequence that is not around dissolving the MR. I've pushed back on her and exited conversations when she starts spewing at me and told her that we can chat when she's less emotional. It seems like there may be something in between that I can use as a consequence, but I've been unable to put my finger on it. I do need to better refine my boundaries as I tend to let them waiver at times when she's constantly hammering on me for every little thing.

Rose, I hear you and you're 100% correct that D knows there is a problem. With things having been quiet bt W and I the past few days I've slipped on this. We're going to the MC on Monday and I'm going to gauge Ws response in there to determine the tact to take in pushing IC for my D. I'd really like to get Ws buy-in as I believe it would be beneficial to my D, but I'm onboard with pushing it if W is not open to it.

MV, please keep being direct. I feel like we're in this weird limbo b/t S and not in the Ws mind. At least that's the story she seems to be spinning w/ recent comments and the agreement on MC. I've no doubt that it's to her benefit.

Originally Posted By: mvgfwd2

Then I would just be quiet and look at her in a calm but confident manner. If she spews I would just walk away. If she walks away I would go back to what I was doing. If she changes her tone I would listen and try to have a rational conversation. No need to get heated or have an argument. You can control how you react and if it escalates or not. Don't let her control the tone of any interaction. It's rare that someone will keep up the bad behavior after they know it has no effect.


Completely on board w/ this. I have been allowing her to control the tone and I think I've let her continue heated conversations too far, especially in front of my D. I've been trying to find a balance of standing up for myself, relieving stress on D, and probably not rocking the boat. It sounds like I should be more focused on standing up for myself and pursuing other avenues to relieve stress on my D.

Will journal in a little bit, but I meet w/ my L today in a few hours to get their thoughts on a plan. MC on Monday for first time w/ W. Interested to view how she acts/reacts in there. Hoping to get a gauge of what's going on with her. No real interaction the past week or so w/ her other than "family" time type stuff. Thank you to everyone for the advice and thoughts. Sorry I've been absent as of late!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2706152 09/23/16 10:53 AM
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lt -- I'll be really interested to hear how your MC goes. As I mentioned in my thread, my W out of the blue told me she'd go (this after me trying to get her to go for over 2 years). I'm not letting myself get too hopeful. I likely will be a few weeks behind you but hopefully we can support each other.

Keep fighting the good fight!


Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
JRuss #2706170 09/23/16 11:48 AM
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Funny enough JR I just responded in your thread while you wrote this! I'll definitely keep you in the loop on how it goes. I'm taking the tact of having no expectations bc I'm not sold my W is genuinely doing it for our MR. We will see.

Regardless, it's a different path to go down. We will figure out if it's a cheese-less tunnel or not.

Met with L and validated some of the things I've been conveying to W about not moving out and not letting her take my D. L said that if R is my goal then I should continue this way until she pushes things forward and the L will be prepared and more active at that point. We talked about some goals in case it comes to that and overall was a good meeting.

Other than that, quiet day. No gym this morning but am going tonight and all weekend. Going to a new park with D to do Pokemon on Sunday. Play the rest of the weekend by ear.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2706376 09/24/16 07:09 PM
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Fun day today with D. Woke up and did my run then went across town with D to a park/botanical garden to explore and hunt some Pokemon (man she loves that game). Found some new ones we didn't have and we were both pretty excited. Tons of exercise early today which felt great.

Came home, ate lunch, and then W took D out to pickup some stuff for a school project. I watched my college team destroy Ws college team (my own little selfish delight today smile ) and actually took a power nap bc I was so wiped from the morning. Been years since I'd done that and it felt great.

Went out as a "family" for dinner. W got annoyed that I was being loud while we waited for a table outside (I have a naturally louder voice, though it's not earth shaking like W believes) so D and I walked around collecting Pokemon near the restaurant. Pleasant time at dinner. The 3 of us joked around and talked some. Been awhile since we'd done a dinner out with the 3 of us. On the way home W made a snide comment about me wasting time driving to the gym to run on the treadmill. Addressed it calmly and shut that down. She still pokes at quite a few things. Silly really, but it is what it is.

W dressed nicely tonight, but the strange thing is I didn't really find myself checking her out all evening like I used to. It's hard to put my finger on it, but it's like there's a different air around her now. I see this woman with D and I but she's a shell of what she once was to me. I can't quite put my finger on it.

W isn't drinking every evening like she was awhile ago, and she's been consistently in bed by 12 every night the past couple weeks. The past few nights she's even stopped clinging to the edge of her side of the bed and has traversed to the middle. I know bc I still sleep like crap and wake up when she comes to bed and a few times after that each night. I really wish the sleeping issues would fix themselves.

That said, the weight loss from the stress appears to have stopped. I'd dropped 20lbs since this started and have gotten about 10 back. Right where I think I need to be. Guessing that's a function of my body constantly being in a panicked state.

Just noticing small things recently. Most of them are with me and not wrapped around my W. I don't know what will come of the MC on Monday, still not convinced my W shows up, but we will see. I'm at a point now where my well being doesn't seem to hinge on every little thing W does. Feels strange, but comforting.

I know I need to continue fighting the disrespect. It's tiring but necessary. Picking my battles, and there do seem to be less lately, but unsure how combative W will be in MC. I'll need to continue to let her know I won't tolerate the disrespect, even in MC.

Ds friends dad who is recently S and I took out to shoot pool a couple weeks ago continues to text my W. I've tried supporting him and may invite him out for wings and football tomorrow. he's a SAHD so they've talked in the past, but I've got his texting on my radar. Last thing I need is some other weird twist to this whole thing. In the meantime, will continue to try to help him through his situation, though he hasn't been real responsive to it.

Taking it one day at a time now. Who knows where this path goes, but myself and my Ds and my relationship will all be stronger for it. W is welcome to join us, but is not a requirement anymore. It's a shame really. I see a path where we are all happy and another where D and I are happy. Doesn't seem to make sense to follow the latter, but W very well may choose that one. But I'm realizing that's her choice to make.

I fight for D and myself. Thanks for letting me lay all this out here. Appreciate everyone as always!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2706418 09/25/16 09:24 AM
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curious, anxious and somewhat excited to hear about MC.
I like where your head is at in this whole situation. You seem to be pretty grounded.

Awesome about the pokemon. My gps stopped working so we can't catch any. one day I'll replace my phone.

all quiet on this end.
-cheesyt


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
lt0402 #2706421 09/25/16 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
I know I need to continue fighting the disrespect. It's tiring but necessary. Picking my battles, and there do seem to be less lately, but unsure how combative W will be in MC. I'll need to continue to let her know I won't tolerate the disrespect, even in MC.
lt0402 - it sounds like you've found some cheesy tunnels. It's tough making changes but you're becoming stronger every day. From the fact that your W isn't on the edge of the bed all the time and has cut back on the drinking may mean that the current loop around the cycle is hitting a calm point.

A agree about your friend texting your W being a cause for concern and can't really think of a great way of addressing it other than perhaps addressing it head-on. You can say honestly that you're worried about your W being depressed and vulnerable and making poor decisions (?) Not sure if that's a good idea or not and you have to expect that whatever you say to him will get back to her and she doesn't have a good history when you "interfere" with her.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
AndrewP #2706459 09/25/16 03:23 PM
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Cheesyt, yeah, I'm going in with no expectations. If anything, ive braced myself for what may be an onslaught from my W. I'd give it a small chance of being beneficial but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised. Still not sure why she's doing it on her end. Sorry to hear about the phone! D and I will catch some Pokemon for you until you're back into it!

AP, I feel stronger but know I'm not even close to as strong as I need to be yet. W still has a way of putting me on my back foot when she confronts me. Getting there slowly but surely though.

I'm also unsure yet how to manage the S friend speaking to W on text so much. Trying to support him with the thought that everything I say may make it back to W. I'm taking the previous advice of supporting him consistent with what I am doing in my situation. Stand strong and unwavering for your family and M. Still bothers me that he'd be talking to W on text, but at this point I'm unsure I can squash it fully without looking like I'm trying to control W. Will continue to monitor it and act if needed I think.

Just as I said that W was showing signs of loosening up, she's gotten cold again today. Clung to the edge of the bed last night. Got on me for spending "too much time" with D and keeping her from maturing and spending time with her friends. W actually said its not normal for a 9yr old girl to want to spend so much time with her dad. I see all this for what it is as its very much the opposite of other things she's also said I'm doing wrong. I tried having a small dialogue with her on it, but as it was going nowhere and she was getting worked up, I told her that I was headed to the gym. She told me she didn't give a f@(k what I did and stormed upstairs.

Perhaps I should have handled it differently but it felt like a no win situation that was just going to end in a blowup. Me just leaving may have been passive aggressive. Not sure.

Tomorrow is MC. Just gave her the address for it. I'll be there 15 minutes early. We will see if she comes and if she does what type of mood she's in. Unsure what will happen, but interested to see it bc it'll give me more clarity around what's going on.

Thanks all!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2706477 09/25/16 04:46 PM
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Just when it starts being quiet. W just exploded about me putting laundry in the machine when she asked me not to. Only problem is she never asked me not to and I put it in well before she said she asked me not too. Also got angry that I was talking to D and "distracting" D while D was getting ready for a bath after dinner.

D came over and again consoled my W about the whole thing. I told W I had laundry in the machine and it was in there for awhile. W stormed off upstairs after that. It's getting really old. I'm not sure how I explain to her she thinks she's saying things that she is not. Not sure I should even try. Frustrating though.

Almost seems like she's got angst over the appt tomorrow and is trying to find an excuse to get out of it. Maybe trying to get me to lose it so she can call it off. Not going to fall for it if that's what it is. If she wants to cancel, that's fine, but it won't be because of an excuse I create for her.

Living in crazy town, hoping I'm not a permanent resident here...


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2706526 09/26/16 05:41 AM
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So now your daughter -- who has trust issues with you and really wants you to move out (per your W) -- spends so much time with you that it's weird (per your W)? I hope you can see that those two things don't go together, at all.

Last edited by Cadet; 09/26/16 06:17 AM. Reason: Start a new thread message

Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
JRuss #2706535 09/26/16 06:43 AM
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LT
Was just recatching up on you sitch lately and its turning into something eerily similar to mine

It is impossible to be in the same house and I think make any progress whether its on the MC front or pulling away to move towards true separation. And agree she won't see how much you do and respect you more until she/you are not in the same house.

My STBX in MC early on when this started just used it as a way to bang on my head and reconfirm her decision. The worlds issues were all my fault and she had nothing to do with our marriage problems. You may see the same behavior if you go down that path.

For all that is going on ($$ being transferred,living togther, etc...) I can only give you some advice that I followed being in a super similar situation:

-always keep your cool in front of the D. I had a few situations that I did not and it was bad. The kids are smart than we think as my daughter ended up saying "I am glad you won't fight anymore" when we said we were moving on. She actaully has said since I moved out that she is glad mommy isn't here to yell at me anymore :-)

-You have lawyered up which is good. I don't recall the housing situation of moving out etc...but did recommend before don't move until you have anything/everything in writing with custody/separation.

-Do move or she should move. Space is good. I don't know if my STBX respects things a bit more of what I represented in the relationship but I sense she is starting to see all that i did. Yours may do the same once you are not sharing the house together. It is so hard living in that stressful situation and I wish you the best with that....

-Best thing to do which I see you are is when you aren't working on you, your job is to spend as much time (and documnet) with your D. It is the most important thing possible. My D and I are closer than ever right now which was my biggest fear. She doesn't want to leave my house and whether its her just saying it or not, we spend quality time together. While my STBX is getting babysitters etc....to do her own thing. Own the time with your D and plan plan plan.


_________________________
Me-48
Spouse-WAW 52
Married for 10 years
D7
ILYBNILWY 7/15
Suspect EA/PA 12/15 No confirmation/denial
She files 1/2016
Working towards the Big D ...still in progress....
lt0402 #2706567 09/26/16 10:28 AM
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Don't be a permanent resident in crazy town!! smile Has she called off the appointment yet?

Good job to your Redskins! Nice prediction!

Last edited by Cadet; 09/26/16 11:17 AM. Reason: Start a new thread message

W:42 M:48
T:9 yrs M:1yr
BD: Feb 2016
EA Confirmed: Feb 2016/PA July 2016
D: Feb 2017

hawker #2706581 09/26/16 11:53 AM
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Link to new thread:

A WW? (5)


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
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