HalfTheMan & MLC-W

[HTM]

On advice of more experienced DB-ers wrt my situation, have moved/linked my thread here to the MLC section.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701749#Post2701749

[Cadet]

OK so that means MORE homework.

Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[HTM]

Thanks Cadet, still working my way through the first set of homework given but I'll get there.

[job]

Welcome to the MLC Forum!

You've got a lot of homework to read through, but if you have questions along the way, please feel free to post them here and the posters will provide guidance, advice, suggestions, etc.

It's okay to express your anger here because we don't like to have that turned towards the spouse or anyone in your life right now. This is a safe place to vent. Yes, we do hand out 2 x 4's periodically, but only if they are warranted. We care about the posters and we want to help you navigate the path you are walking on at the moment. It's never a straight one because there will be twists, turns and plenty of bumps along the way, so w/saying all of that...back to the reading.

[Huddy]

Hi HTM

I'm also in the UK, but about 400 miles to the North!

I've just had a read through your thread on newcomers and I have to say, it's not abnormal at all. Yep, that LBS diet works wonders and the insomnia just sets it all off nicely.

When I look back now, there were all sorts of warning signs that I didn't pick up on. Feel free, if you've got a few years, of reading through the 19 threads of mine on newcomers! Or, alternatively, don't and I'll let you know that my W also went down the separation route via a solicitor. Whatever you do, don't feel pressurised in to signing a separation agreement, or agreeing to anything. I didn't, but we still sold the house.

As for OM, I can't say about mine, but who knows. Sadly, it's a feeling you'll get use to shrugging off. The snooping will become less as well as you knuckle down for a bear fight. You're goal right now is to look after you and your kids. They have to be the object of your primary concern. Right now, your W can't be trusted to behave normally, so you have to be the better parent.

Clothing changes and teeth whitening are normal, as is, apparently, surgery. My W has just had a tummy tuck, so stand by for that one.

Listen to Wonka, sandi2, Cadet, Jack3B and Job. They're the experts around here (they have all been through it, or inflicted it on somebody) and give invaluable advice.

Don't give it!

[HTM]

Thanks for the intro & welcome Job.

Yes recognise my frustrations & anger have not helped my situation at all. I'm looking to do much better at controlling my reactions to W's behaviour/spewing in future, so having a place to vent will be useful; hopefully this'll ensure no one in close physical proximity sees anything less than the best version of me.

Quite happy to take the odd 2x4 as well if I'm out of line, or if my thinking/actions stray from the rational.

[HTM]

Hi Huddy,

Thanks, will check out your threads as anything that can prepare me for what's to come can hopefully ensure I meet it with the right reaction, 'forewarned is forearmed' right?

A few of the more experienced DB-ers have already made their introduction and as you can guess I'm still trying to get Cadet's homework done.

Interestingly RAI offered a very good POV on my initial thread wrt the potential separation agreement that may come out of Mediation...

Regarding mediation, how does one mediate with a partner who has no scruples. Would you enter into a business partnership with someone who behaves this way?

...and I'll keep in mind that I shouldn't react & sign out of pressure; thanks. Incidentally, Mediation is to be carried out by Relate; 1st app scheduled for mid-late Sept. Think my W is struggling w/ her own finances and Relate will be a cheaper option. I did enlist the services of a solicitor, who specialises in Family Law & mediation, to help with the Court Order W raised against me, so fingers x-d his expertise will come in handy in this area too.

Haven't seen any teeth whitening yet but there was a visit to the dentist this week, just a little too close to her last regular check-up, so will keep an eye out for that one!

[job]

HTM,

Since you are new the Board, I would like to point out that you will need to stick to one thread until you've reached the 100 postings/replies. Once you have done so, then start a new one. Also, you change your subject line whenever you want within a thread and it's not necessary to start a new thread because you have a new thought or subject.

The only reason that I'm pointing this out now is because you have two threads that are showing up on the Newcomers' forum and Cadet will more than likely merge them together at some point.

[Huddy]

I would stop mediation right now. I did one session with my W and it was awful. It was with Relationship Scotland which is the portion of relate up here. My W thought the counsellor was on my side only and just made things worse. Seriously, unless your W wants to be part of the process, there is nothing in this but heartache.

Remember, anyone who doesn't see there side of the story is an enemy. I went for the next session on my own (I'd already paid for it) and the next counsellor was firmly in the 'let her go' school of thought.

Just my tuppence worth!

[Huddy]

Just another one, you don't have to react to any solicitors letters with regard a separation order, unless specified by the court. Personally, I just ignored them and W gave up in the end and removed/destroyed all the letters.

I believe that she has to prove that you would be abusive towards her, in order for her to get a protection order for the kids. Your S should point you right there.

Watch your solicitor pounds - they soon mount up! Oh, and right now, your W's finances are her problem, not yours!

[HTM]

Sorry Job,

Was trying to move/link my Newcomers thread to the MLC part of the forum following experienced poster recommendations but I screwed it up.

I thought using the 'Notify' Moderator button on each thread would serve to highlight this, along with a message asking that the link & extra thread be updated/removed; guessing this probably wasn't the best way to go about it.

For someone who's supposed to be computer literate I should be sent to the naughty corner with a zx-spectrum and asked to start learning IT again.

Being a Moderator wonder if you would be able to remove the additional Newcomers thread as well as ensure the forward link from my original thread to the new MLC thread is correct?

Thanks & regards,
HTM.

[HTM]

Hi Huddy,

I did cancel the Mediation appointment a few weeks ago, somewhat out of spite but also upon solicitors advice. My W had gone to the family court and applied for a Non-Molestation/Occupancy Order without me present to oppose it, hence why I got the solicitor involved; protect your kids & yourself right? Well the scheduled 30min court hearing that the solicitor & I were due to attend, refuting the allegations, got cancelled last minute by my W She did at least drop the Occupancy part of the order which if upheld could have seen me kicked out of the family home.

This NMO is my W abusing a legal system put in place to protect people in more dire Domestic Violence cases; yes I've argued, got angry & shouted -no worse than my W- but certainly nothing physical.

So it may go against certain DB-ing principles but I have to do what I can to get this NMO dropped completely as it has an automatic power of arrest attached to it; picture the scene... Mediation taking place, W disagrees with a proposal I make, it gets heated & she speed-dials then I'm dragged off without any redress until later at the Police Station, scary!

At present I have reinstated the Mediation appointment on a 'shuttle' basis, i.e. separate rooms, in the hope W makes good on her commitment to drop the NMO completely if I go ahead. Though if she doesn't I will have to give serious consideration to pursuing a fully contested hearing (day in court, cross-examination, evidence submission, etc.) meaning the £900 I've already outlaid to the solicitor will escalate to something closer to £10k. Watch this space!

In a way, I'm ok to go through mediation as I'm confident any reasonable impartial 3rd party would see I'm not being difficult and open to comprise, as long as what comes out of this is a win-win for Ss & me I'll be happy. However, I will take your experience on-board and get your point about anyone who doesn't see things W's being an enemy.

[job]

HTM,

I can do magic on the MLC Forum, just as Cadet can do magic on the Newcomers Forum. The moderators don't have the capabilities to go from one forum to the next and repair things. If I could, I would be more than happy to merge the two threads over on Newcomers for you.I'm sure that when Cadet is around, he'll merge the two for you.

Also, the "notify" button wasn't working for quite some time, but it appears that I can be notified now for the MLC Forum.

[job]

HTM,

You have to do whatever it takes to get the NMO struck from the system. Although you'll need to be sure to find out exactly what it states as she may have pulled the rabbit out of the hat and stated that you verbally and emotionally abused her and the only way to get relief from that behavior is to file a NMO. I am so sorry that this happened to you.

[Lifes Twists]

HTM,

I don't believe that it is against DB'ing to protect yourself legally from anything she does. I know that everyone here will tell you to protect yourself and your children. I have been where you are and had to get legal orders removed in order to protect myself. Believe me when I say that it does not have a negative impact on your DB'ing. In fact it may have a more positive long term result. This does not mean to be nasty to her or try to cause her trouble. This just means to stand up for yourself and do what is legally and morally right. Be the best man and father you can be. Work on yourself and your relationship with your children. Always remember that there is only one person in this world that you can control and that is yourself.

[Huddy]

I think all the legal stuff is a ruse to get you away from her. I know it's amazing, but in their mind, the LBS should leave the house and pitch up somewhere else. My W wanted me to do that and I went to a hotel for a week, but, it was my house and I wasn't being forced anywhere.

OK, so this order sounds a bit extreme. Does she have any kind of proof? Is there any cause for a judge to grant this order? Be careful of her new 'friend', as she may be spurring her on and may provide 'witness' evidence. Yeah, this is gonna cost a bit, but you have got to protect yourself. Keep your temper at bay as well.

[HTM]

Thanks LT,

I've been coming around to that better me/dad thinking more & more following supportive forum posts such as yours. Trying to rise above W's provocation & not be drawn into retaliatory games needs work but I'm getting there.

[HTM]

Huddy,

Think you're right. I get the impression W wants the Mediated separation to go ahead and be done ASAP, the NMO is a means of manipulating me to 'toe the line'. Plus, it turns the tables and makes me look like the bad guy to her family/friends. Think W is about to a reality check though, wrt how long mediated separation and selling the family home can take.

The witness statement backing up the NMO is ~90% fabrication; some truthful elements in there but they're mixed/merged/confused, no real evidence it really is her word against mine. No hint of the discovered EA that would explain my reaction(s) to her behaviour. I do believe there is more than one person whispering in W's ear about the MR & separation but I'm pretty sure W's eldest sister, a WPC & familiar with such court orders, is the one who made the suggestion about the NMO.

I feel I'm getting my reactions/temper under more control as I continue detaching; even afford myself a smile at some of my W's eccentricities of late.

[Huddy]

Know where you're at with sisters/SIL. My wonderful SIL was instrumental in W trying to run 230 miles away. I was in my snooping phase back then and the texts were pure vile. If W returns to me, I don't want her sister within 100 miles of me.

[HTM]

Ok so an update on what’s been happening over the last couple of weeks.

W had a week away w/ Ss staying over at SIL’s place, something we used to do annually as a family, which I found a little difficult to deal w/ tbh. Thought, after all that had gone on w/ the court order being raised, me involving a solicitor, etc., a break from recent toxic interactions would be good for me. However, I did find myself sliding back into a depressive mood about the MR, even got tearful on one occasion. I certainly missed my Ss, when they’re around it helps me focus and reminds me to be a great dad. Still managed to GAL somewhat by playing host and cooking for some friends one evening, then again on another evening for my elder (WAW) sister. Another evening I played doubles tennis, though I did let myself down a little by skipping gym all week & hardly venturing out.

Anyway, last week I got to take Ss away with me on a mini-vacation or ‘boys road-trip’ as we ended up calling it We spent a couple of days at a splash/water park and then a few more at a seaside town, all great fun. Supposedly W was going to spend more time at SIL’s while we were away but I suspect, due to a lack of FB activity, she actually met up w/ OM. Anyway, I didn’t let it get to me and just focused on having a good time with my two Ss.

Yesterday W & I had a calm discussion about separation, W talked about her plans post-house sale. She intends to rent locally for a few months & pay off her debts -get the impression these are mounting- then buy a 3-bed house 100+ miles away from London somewhat closer to SIL, changing job in the process. Naturally the subject of co-parenting & custody came up and it seems W is ok to uproot Ss from schools/friends -as if their parents splitting wasn’t enough for them to deal with- and have them move with her. W intimated that should she end-up w/ mostly weekend custody, she’d want the odd weekend to herself and it would be ok for me to have Ss more -prime example of the MLCer me, me, me mentality at work. Now I suspect there may be more behind this “fresh start” plan than W lets on so I’ll take it with ‘a pinch of salt’ until actions match words. When I suggested moving closer to SIL might be handy to help out w/ Ss care, W emphasised that she didn't intend on using her sister as a babysitter -I’m thinking this has got fantasy plan to be w/, or closer to, OM written all over it. I didn’t really react to any of what W said, stayed calmed, offered some input here & there and gave a potential plan of my own. Upon reflection of her intentions, I’ve arrived at a conclusion and a decision:

• Moving/being away from supporting family & friends at a difficult time in one’s life is madness!
• If separation & house sale go ahead I’m going to do whatever is in my power to stay close to where we live now to minimise upheaval for Ss and ensure family/friends are close by for them/me.

In the next few days both Ss return to school and then the regular routine of running them to/from school as well as sports/activities will begin again. I intend to speak to both Ss schools/form-tutors this week, ensuring they're aware of the imminent separation and to ask they monitor the affect it may have on Ss.

[Lifes Twists]

Speaking from my experience, you will get lots of advise. Some will say to give her what she wants. I don't recommend this. I say to fight to preserve what you have worked so hard to get. Preserve the home you have provided for your young sons. Some will tell you that to fight for this will be to further drive your wife away. I say she is already driven away from you. Standing up for yourself and your children is the only thing you can do at this point. I am not saying to be nasty to her, rather just strong and not bending on what is right for you and your boys. Fight to keep them in their school and familiar surroundings. If she chooses to move, that is her decision, but fight letting her move your sons as well.

There will be those who will tell you the system is rigged for the mother. I believe that is changing. I stood strong and had a good attorney who fought for me. I ended up with the house, the kids and no alimony. It took several years but was worth it. The interesting part was just 4 months after divorce was final she called me to talk. We are now slowly reconnecting and spending time together. I can't guarantee this will be the result for you, but at this point what do you have to loose.

[Huddy]

One thing that worked for me was to say to my W, in a calm voice that 'if she moved my children away from me, I'd never forgive her'. She didn't move, despite what my SIL wanted to do. You've got to have your b@lls in your hand before you contemplate saying things though, and you have to sound like you mean it, but not in a nasty way. Just another tuppence in the pie!

[HTM]

At this stage don't think I would mind W moving away -would give me some space to gather myself- just as long as Ss are left with me for the school week. Over the last 7-8yrs I've been the one using work flexi-time to cover nearly all AM/PM school runs & after school activities. I've also done some of the running around at the weekends. Since BD in Jan, I've felt like a single parent stepping up with more of the household chores too. So W can move & get this new life she's angling for and I'll stay local to schools/family/etc; expect very little opposition to that.

In some respects my situation resembles that of the WW/Nice-Guy scenario, if not for the events leading up W's MLC. So taking my 'b@lls in my hand' and being more assertive about what I will or will not do/accept/etc. is a part of me that I'm working on. However, have to be careful as sometimes I come across as aggressive, to an extent this led me down the NMO path.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

being more assertive about what I will or will not do/accept/etc. is a part of me that I'm working on. However, have to be careful as sometimes I come across as aggressive, to an extent this led me down the NMO path.

That's a fine line you're going to walk doing that. Especially if any of that comes in the form of an ultimatum.

While I fully believe in the LBS standing up for themselves...in many ways. Any ultimatum you issue you will have to live with the consequences of it. And the results are usually not what you want them to be.

Be careful.

I'm going to suggest that you read some of the threads that Cadet provided above BEFORE you go down that road.

[HTM]

JTB, duly noted.

Even though I've been careful not to lay down any ultimatums since BD, W has still translated/interpreted some of what I've said as a demand judging by the spew thrown back at me so recognise I need to tread cautiously.

[HTM]

In a previous post, I mentioned being fairly confident that W had spent time w/ OM while I took Ss away on mini-vacation. I’m in a better place to deal with these covert manoeuvres now but one little thing bugged me about the last outing and it concerns a chemise/gown set I’d bought W some years ago. To my recollection she’s never worn it around me, maybe a poor style choice on my part Well, suddenly it appeared -probably used while W was away & not just for when she stayed over at SIL’s- got washed and then was put away rather quickly. I have a notion W will take & wear this next opportunity she gets to meet up w/ OM. Now what I would love to say is…


“I hope you’re not wearing that chemise & gown set I bought you years ago for OM!?” I would hope you’d show me & our marriage more respect than that.”

...feel this is one of those things I just vent here but should not utter to W ever.


Reflecting back to the separation discussion from a few days ago... W mentions she’s been thinking about what household items she wanted to take with her. Certain things have a connection to MIL and I completely understand, one request that threw me was for our crockery/dinner set!? All of this crockery was on our wedding list and bought by various/numerous people so I don’t see any sentimental connection to any one person, or is this W trying to incite a reaction from me?

[job]

HTM,

They don't necessarily take things that remind them of yesteryear. They take things that have some meaning to them. It could be the dishes, it could be a certain set of sheets, coffee cups, etc. The dishes are something she would need in her place, i.e., therefore, she wouldn't have to purchase any.

My xh took a dozen towels, washcloths, chicken in the freezer (that I had just purchased the day before myself), as well as carrots, a bag of potatoes, onions, 15 notepads, a bunch of pens and pencils and the list goes on. When he continued to say he needed some personal items from the home, I agreed to allow him one visit, since I ensured that he took all of his personal items. When he came, he was escorted by 2 deputies because he feared for his life...now he's a big man and I'm no where near as strong as he is, but I was lucky because I new the deputies. So, when I knew he was coming, I piled up in a guest bedroom everything that I could think of that he would want and the only things that he actually wanted was my set of keys to his Blazer, his baby photos and yes, 1 old plastic Easter Egg that was worth a couple of bucks that his mother gave to me. Yep, that's right. He made mention several times that he would have to go back to his place and come up w/another list of personal items and provide it to the lawyers...didn't happen because I had a copy of the report from the police and he got nothing more. Had I been him, I would have taken all of my tools and things such as that, but I have them and use them now. Oh, one more thing, he complained about missing mail...but what do you expect when you have 5 mailing addresses? The missing mail? It was the Pennysaver, i.e., junk mail.

To make a long story short, have your w make a list of what she wants and have it ready for when she comes over. Make sure to take photos of the items, as well as keep a copy of the list. At some point, you'll need to nip the "I would this or that" in the bud because they keep on taking if you allow it.

There was a poster here many years ago and when her husband left, it took the steps to the shed. Yes, that's right. Another poster's h took the little chair to her son's desk that only a a child could sit in. Yes, that's right.

So, you see, they all take things and what they take doesn't necessarily have to mean something to them. Whatever catches their eye at that moment is generally what they take. What they are doing isn't meant to incite a reaction out of you because in some cases it's a spur of the moment action. I suggest that if you have something that you value, that you tuck it away somewhere safe and out of sight until she's done her walk thru.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

“I hope you’re not wearing that chemise & gown set I bought you years ago for OM!?” I would hope you’d show me & our marriage more respect than that.”

...feel this is one of those things I just vent here but should not utter to W ever.

I'd agree best not to say that. Sort of what you really want to say, "Your lady parts I enjoyed so much, best not use those with the OM." Ultimately though...its anything to do with the OM. Hey that salt shaker we got in Mexico? He better not be using that on his eggs...that's just disrespectful.

If she is with the OM, she is with the OM and nothing you can say or do will change that.

Being blunt here a little.

Having an OM or OW is totally disrespectful fixating on an item of clothing or object...or....even kids which happens as a reason to flip your lid about the level of disrespect, is sort of like an excuse.

I could handle it, but then she wore that baseball cap I got here about 3 years ago to a baseball game with the OM and...that was the last straw.

See what I mean?

She is going to have an OM, she will have a PA, it is disrespectful. This is a symptom of the MLC. Her not wanting to be married is disrespectful.

Pretty much everything they do while in MLC is disrespectful.

If you want to be married to her, you will have to ignore these things, and work on figuring out if forgiveness of all these things is something you can achieve.

PS - HalftheMan?

I get it, its a bad place and your depressed. A lot of people pick sad sad names to reflect how they are feeling.

HTM...

I'm calling you Hero Time Man or Hero for short.

Be the person you WANT to be start now; Hero.

[HTM]

Thanks for the feedback Job.

Just to clarify, W is still in the house w/ me at present -I'm sure she thinks of it as an IHS, of course I see it very differently especially as were still sharing the same bed- so her visiting and taking things is yet to come. However, I expect household items she wants will be listed/discussed at the Mediators appointment later this month.

Still, think I get the gist of what you're saying, my MLCer W won't necessarily chose items to invoke a reaction from me but is more about what has significance to her or catches her eye at the time.

Incidentally while on the topic of splitting household items, W wants the small bedroom TV bought by MIL for both of us some Christmases ago, which has now turned into a gift bought solely for W; further evidence of how memories are re-written in the MLCer's mind!

[HTM]

No problem with you being blunt JTB, think I need a dose of that every once in a while.

The more I read & understand, the better I grasp that there is nothing I can do/say to get her to behave in a reasonable way or dissuade her from pursuing OM. In fact, any challenge on my part will only add to her resolve about being with him, considering my W was pretty obstinate pre-MLC surely that will be amplified to gargantuan proportions now!

Yes you're right on the money wrt the HalfTheMan name, it is a song reference as well as serving to capture the mood from BD to when I signed up to the forum. It has been noted already by RAI that I should be looking to update this or refine it. So although the acronym HTM will remain, I'll work on creating a more positive moniker to fit with where I'm heading

[Irish M]

Hi HTM
I agree with Jack and be that hero.
You are no longer in the presence of a rational person. She will play games with your mind, spew, play victim and show signs of the old her to get what SHE WANTS.

Protect yourself and your kids. You seem to be grasping the idea very well so far

Keep it up
I'm Cheering for you

Irish

[HTM]

Somehow ended up in a couple of discussions over the weekend just gone; follow on of the separation conversation from last week. It started while W was just heading out the door to take Ss swimming and got the feeling she wanted to stay & talk more; evident by the follow up txt while at swimming w/ Ss…

W…
"I think we need to chat further. I determined for us to be in the same vicinity for the boys. If possible. I think you need to sort your job situation first. I am happy for you to out buy me if you can. If so I am happy for them to stay there with you. On the strict understanding we have joint custody. If you can't afford to which is unlikely and you are based in XXX we can discuss where we both might move to. I can locate to somewhere like XXX for example. Where the boys live in this case will need to be discussed but we should both create a home for them.

Despite appearances I am working through my grief about you and the marriage. I do and will continue to believe our marriage to be a success despite what's happening now. It's just come to an end for me and it's time for me to start again. I understand you may feel differently. But life will be good again for both of us as some point. I'm tired of fighting with you. I just want a peaceful resolution devoid of the bitterness that's gone on before. I know I've hurt you and I have to live with that. But you'll move on and will find someone who can love you in the right way.

Me...
I still care for you deeply & worry about you more than you realise, don't feel that'll ever change. If you want to talk more about plans I'd be open to that.

I can see W trying to control or push my decisions wrt job/accommodation but I do wonder about the joint custody point. The way I see it, if I stay in the home/local I'd have them for the majority of the time, i.e. school week, so why stress that? Incidentally, my reply was more about laying a longer term foundation as in all the heated R talks/arguments so far, I haven’t stated anything like this.

So when we continue the conversation later at home, W still maintains she wants a fresh start away from where we currently live. Although, instead of moving 100+ miles away she’s backtracked slightly, now looking to move approx 30miles away & in the opposite direction; perhaps there isn’t a fantasy plan to be w/ OM after all!? Anyway, get the impression she changed her mind because I’m resolute about staying local -in the family home if I can finance buying W out- to lessen the impact on Ss wrt the split, i.e. minimise other major changes/upsets in their lives wrt schools/friends/family/etc. W persists w/ her thinking that the kids are ‘resilient’ and will cope with the separation as well as the upheaval of changing schools, leaving friends behind, etc. should it come to that. I of course, and anyone in their right mind, would disagree.

In one part of the discussion W mentions about being friends after the separation but I only offered to work towards an amicable co-parenting R. At some future time I may change my mind on this but that will be 'my' choice.

Have contacted S11’s school so they’re aware of the situation/separation and asked they monitor & advise me of any emotional behaviour problems that arise; will speak to S8’s school to the ask the same tomorrow.

W has been interacting w/ Ss a lot more over the last few weeks which I’m pleased about. This weekend she ran Ss to sports/activities and helped with homework; much like pre-BD w/ family interactions almost back to normal, and the non-R conversations we had were even pleasant! I’ve seen similar behaviour from my W before and so have no expectations that this will last. I’m suspicious that there could be an ulterior motive as well, perhaps the upcoming 1st Mediation appointment scheduled for next week.

Over the weekend I find out that my W has cancelled/dropped the Non-Molestation Order. Apparently this was discharged a couple of weeks ago so I’m miffed as to why she didn’t mentioned this sooner. Also concerned why the court didn’t try to contact me or L about this. Still, don’t look a ‘gift horse in the mouth’ right? But boy am I glad to have the pressure of automatic police arrest lifted from me. W did seem to think that the recent calm R/separation discussions are a result of her raising the court order but IMHO it’s because I’m becoming less emotionally engaged and now more closely following DB guidelines & forum advice; didn’t state this though ;-)

[HTM]

W reminds me yesterday evening of her upcoming week away for work in October while pinning up an itinerary on the kitchen notice board. Not sure why she thinks I need this as I remind her that I’m planning to take Ss away that week, pretty sure I’d mentioned this a while ago. Anyway, she inquires where I’m taking them and I say that I’m planning to hire an RV and do a little tour of Scotland. She looks at me, smiles and says “Why didn’t you ever plan anything like that before we were separated?” I reply “We’re not separated, we’re still married.” A slightly tense discussion ensues but I keep my cool and walk out of the room before it has a chance to escalate. It ends in a difference of opinion, she sees us as separated & I don’t, not until we’ve moved away/out anyway. Still can’t help thinking I could’ve handled this situation better though.

W seemed disappointed that my tennis practice got cancelled yesterday evening -genuinely- and I’d be around the house when she had an old work colleague coming over for supper/drinks. Of course, she wanted the house to herself, and in years previous I would of made myself scarce but I’m thinking she didn’t ask, just assumed I’d be out and this is my home too. W & friend were in the kitchen and I was in the lounge w/ S8 to help with his School reading. I then took him off to bed and returned to the lounge to watch TV -rerun of "Two and Half Men" my little comedy escape at the moment- for bit. When the TV programme finished (9:30pm) I was feeling restless and thought a session at the gym wouldn’t go amiss. I walk in to kitchen to grab my gym bottle & keys and found the kitchen door shut, probably so my W could bring 'quietly' bring her friend up to speed w/ the sitch. I made some polite conversation with the friend, whom I’ve known for some time too, then left.

Didn’t sleep well as I kept thinking about what W may have discussed with her friend the evening before. In the end got up at 5am, just before W gets up for work, and went downstairs for coffee. A short while later W comes down and I encounter the teenage MLCer mind. W’s complaining because she’d pencilled in a Thurs/Fri/Sat block of dates in the family calendar around her birthday. From a previous discussion I know she hadn’t confirmed all plans, certainly not for the Saturday. So I took the opportunity to book/undertake a course -GAL activity- that weekend, meaning she can’t stay overnight at a ‘friends’ because she’ll need to be home for Ss on Saturday morning. W then says she’ll go, and stay, out this Saturday instead which I see as her retaliating to my concrete plans. I did get drawn into some of the ensuing squabble, must try harder with detachment & holding my tongue, though did manage to validate a little. Eventually I saw where this was going, put my hand up and said “I’m done with this discussion.” W walked out of the room and went to get dressed for work. IMO another sign of teenage rebellion was what she was dressed in for the work day, a short flowery summer dress. In the past I’ve suggested this particular dress was worn for someone else. Didn't say anything this time but what amused me was here is someone wearing a summer dress when there was a thunderstorm & heavy rain outside I’m fairly confident she was trying to rile me, as later when I went into our bedroom something else had been laid out on the bed, more suitable for the days weather. I’m not going to bite this time though!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Good Morning Hero,

That trip with your son sounds awesome. I hope you enjoy it.

It ends in a difference of opinion, she sees us as separated & I don’t, not until we’ve moved away/out anyway. Still can’t help thinking I could’ve handled this situation better though.

On one hand you did ok.
On the other hand, yes you could have.
You ever notice how hard it is to change someone's mind?
It's almost like they have to change it themselves when they gather new information on their own...

Let's say...I LOVE the Idea of independant Scotland. And let's say you don't. How are you going to change my mind? Notice how I pulled up something more or less current and relevant?
Did you notice that all the arguing and logic didn't change anyone's mind about whatever side they landed on?

Hero, sir,

How much of what you are doing is intentionally either passive aggressive, or done on purpose to impede or hinder her plans; vindictive?

I think you are better than that sir.

A question, do you want her to choose to come back to you, or force her back to you?

I get the feeling that there is a lot of simmering anger, that's not a surprise, in you right now. If you cannot manage it, or alleviate, it s going to sour everything you do in regard to her. It will seep into every interaction, and it will be noticed.

You are also doing alot of thinking what she must be thinking, or saying...
Mind Reading
Hamster Wheel
pointless

wasting your time, and fueling your anger, on imagined slights.

Kill your anger, or use it as a shield, and not a sword.
Stop saying snide comments, stop getting the last word.
These are battles you can win, and cost you the war.

[Huddy]

Independent Scotland. Jack, that is an idea of a bunch of braveheart addicts who couldn't rub a pencil mark off a page, never mind run a country. They'd be bankrupt within a week! Opportunists the lot of them.

Rant over. Back to normal service!

Sadly, HTM, they do consider themselves separated, regardless of if you're in the house or not. The final piece of nastiness is when they take off the ring and keep saying 'we're done'. In hindsight, and in house separation was a nightmare. There si only so much stress and heartache the human body can take before we 'fall over'. Plug on, but moving out isn't the same as moving on.

[HTM]

JTB,

I'm hoping -no scratch that- 'going' to make the trip great for both Ss and me. I offered the boys the option of Euro Disney or an RV tour of Scotland and they went for the latter.

As usual JTB your insight is brilliant, considering my emotions at the time I can't deny that there wasn't a hint of me trying to impede W's plans. I wouldn't say it was 100% vindictive or passive-aggressive for reasons such as the two day course being free, won't get an invite to the Saturday family get together and it's a subject that I've been interested in for a while, plus W did mention Saturday plans hadn't been confirmed when I went ahead and booked the course. However, thinking she'd be staying over at OMs the night before and swan-in at what time she felt like the next day did play on mind; you're right I need to do better and rise above that.

As for the 'simmering anger' don't think you're too far off the mark there either. Internally I'm still dealing with some considerable resentment and this probably emanates in any tense discussion that W & I have. I appreciate your thoughts/comments and recognise the long term damage this could do -judging by W's response think she has already picked up on this- so will work on channeling or using this in a more positive way in future.



Huddy,

Yeah heard the 'we're done' speech along w/ ring removal about 5 weeks ago after W had attended/completed 'End of Relationship' counseling at Relate... "I've been signed off, I'm good to go!" she says. But then in a recent txt she mentions still grieving for me & the marriage! How confuzzled would a person be if you didn't know of MLC crazy land?

[HTM]

So had the first Relate Mediation/Separation appointment on Monday. It went ok, took some AA meds to keep on top of any panic attack before going in, perhaps it helped as I didn’t get upset/angry or interrupt when W or mediator were talking. Fortunately this meeting was eased by the NMO court order being discharged by my W two weeks previous -now confirmed by my L- so any heated separation talk wouldn’t result in me being dragged off by the police.

Anyway, at this stage we’re working towards a full/combined financial picture to then begin dividing fairly between us. Custody will be covered in later appointments, though W has remarked she’s happy for me to have Ss during school week/term if I buy her out of the family home and/or stay local.

Full financial disclosure is expected and requires all supporting documentation which both of us are still trying to gather. I’m curious to see if W comes clean wrt recent ‘Replay’ spending habits as I know she’s outspending her monthly income; suspect she’s had final demand(s) for credit card payments. However, the impasse is not going to be her debts but her Pension. The Cash Equivalent Transfer Value (CETV) of her Pension is more than double mine due to her vocation & it being funded by the public sector. Plus she has been paying into this long before I started my pension.

During the meeting W got emotional/tearful when the Mediator touched on her Pension being a marital asset, “That’s all mine, I worked hard for all that!” I already knew that a pension can be used to offset more tangible marital assets, i.e. the house. A friend of mine had to give up his house to his XW during his divorce settlement because his pension was so substantial.

Now here’s my dilemma… do I utilise my W’s higher pension value to leverage a better deal on settling over the house?

By doing this am I justly protecting & securing the immediate to mid-term financial stability for S11, S8 and me? Having to re-mortgage and raise £65k instead of £130k makes buying W out of the family home much more viable. Additionally, w/ both Ss living with me for approx 70% of the week, W will have to pay alimony too -pretty sure her avoidance of reality means she’s unaware of any of this!

I can’t help but ponder the long term R damage my decision will have; worried that W will see this as me being bitter/vindictive for her wanting out of the MR, a Parthian shot. And what of the extended family and wider friendships that would certainly be soured, outsiders of the MR won’t know my side of the story, I’ll look like a complete bar-steward for doing this to her!

I discussed all of this with my IC this week & he at least alleviated my concern about my in-laws, remarking that chances of paths crossing in future will be minimal, however, he is of the opinion that the MR cannot be saved -a DB non-believer- but for now he is beneficial to my mental well being so I continue to see him.

I intend to discuss this with my L and get a legally objective take on the matter ahead of next months follow up appointment.

Grateful for any input from the DB community too.

[job]

HTM,

This is now a business deal gone sour. I know it's difficult, but you can't worry about whether she will think you are being vindictive or not. Trust me, if the shoe were on the other foot, she would definitely use your pension as a bargaining chip when dealing w/the house.

All assets, pensions, etc., should be brought to the table and then the talks should get down to the money talks/bargaining begins. You do what you need to do in order to secure a home for your kids. There is absolutely no harm in bargaining for the house and at this time, you need to think only of yourself and your children.

Just remember...this is now a business deal, leave your heart and emotions at the door when it comes to discussing money, etc.

[HTM]

Struggling a little tonight/this-morning. Fell asleep on the couch for about 4hrs then on retiring to bed couldn’t sleep with too much spinning around my head.

W is away for the night & I know she's spending it w/ OM, it's fairly evident to me considering what she was wearing when leaving the house yesterday afternoon.

As W was saying goodbye to Ss in a separate room, I overhear S8 mention to S11 that mummy was staying over at granddads -of course she is! I also overhear S11 ask if my W was seeing her g.f., W's usual cover story, but got the impression she avoided answering the question by walking into the kitchen, where I was, to collect her keys and then leaving.

After she’d left I took Ss over to my sisters to see the newest addition to the family, my nephew's baby girl, born a few days ago. While there the boys have fun with their cousins, I catch-up with both sisters as well as BIL and of course great uncle HTM gets his cuddles with the little one

We return home and I get Ss off to bed. I’m in a good enough place to deal with W being away w/ OM until I open a joint bank statement. W & I are gathering relevant financial documentation for ongoing mediation and she must have requested this statement from the bank. As it’s addressed to both of us I open it. On closer inspection I find a debit card purchase which confirms she was in the vicinity of OM's place a few weeks ago; he's 3hrs away from where we live.

As detached as I’ve become it’s strange how finding this affects me. I’ve known for a while that she covertly sees OM. A few days ago I saw her taking a selfie to message him with. Even worse, just this week think I almost walked in on her having phone sex! IMHO I deal with all of this so well but then a little detail like an entry on a bank statement has my mind reeling.

Need to get this off my chest this morning as in my current frame of mind, I’m likely to explode at her when she walks through the door later today.

[job]

HTM,

As much as you would like to explode at her, breathe and count to 10. No matter what you say, she will be that much more determined to continue to do what she's doing. The best thing would be to document what you have found and keep it close because you may need the evidence at a later date.

Right now, you are in the early stages of gathering financial info and you just never know, it might be something that can be addressed when discussing the financial data during mediation. I know it's difficult, but you've got to keep what you have found to yourself for now. The time will come when you will have your say...but get through the financial stuff first.

Just my two cents.

[HTM]

Job,

I know you're right. As Jack_Three_Beans advised previously I need to do better with my anger/resentment, use it as a shield rather than a sword. If I'm feeling the same way when she arrives home later, will make a quick escape and go off to the gym or go whack some tennis balls.

BTW Job do you ever sleep or take a break from the board?

[HTM]

Friday evening W finds out I have an appointment this week to speak to my L. I’m somewhat detached but still too emotionally embroiled in all this to deal with splitting finances/custody objectively, feel it best to confirm my legal position ahead of the next Mediation meeting.

W starts on about her sizeable pension, as she did in the first Mediation appointment, and keeps saying/thinking I’m going to ‘screw her over’ when splitting finances because of it. I’m approaching this with no ill will, just after a fair financial settlement to ensure Ss & I don’t suffer because W wants to separate. Even the Mediator explained to both of us that pensions are joint marital assets. If W had done her homework, rather than just listen to hearsay from SILs/friends/etc., she’d be aware of this. As you can imagine some of this talk causes W to spew, on a couple of occasions I walk away, managed to validate a little but still get drawn into some of it.

I get up the next morning, go into the kitchen for coffee and notice W at the bottom of the garden on her mobile; probably reporting back to a sister/friend about the discussion the evening before. When she comes back into the kitchen the topic of mediation/separation comes up again, this time I handle the situation better; no anger, no retaliatory remarks, validate plenty and even apologise for my true failings in the MR when the opportunity arises.

During this longer discussion W mentions -en passant- my change in attitude/action wrt domestic chores over the last nine months; good to know some things are getting noticed without me bringing it to her attention.

On the downside, W is now throwing in threats about me losing shared custody of Ss if I don’t play fair -read: ‘do what she wants’- wrt split. Even though the court order against me has been discharged, I think W feels she has a stronger legal position because it was in place at some point; I’m not so sure but will check this w/ my L.

Going into observation mode during this discussion, I note W keeps using the words ‘mine’, ‘hers’, never ‘ours’ as I do when referring to joint finances, the house or Ss. Also, this is the first time we discuss last months mediation appointment but I get the impression W thinks the Mediator is on her side!

As the talk of finances meanders, W brings up loaning me money years ago when I had some credit difficulties while at Uni. I don’t ever recall her giving me any money at all. I dealt with the situation myself by negotiating with the bank to freeze the interest, took out student loans and worked two part-time jobs to pay off my debts.

I really can’t account for my W’s memory and where she digs up these allegations. Earlier in this crisis I would have been so confused as to doubt myself/memory but I’m getting wise to this now.

Over the remainder of the weekend W is mostly pleasant. Sunday afternoon she even sat with me & Ss in the lounge to watch TV; very rare since BD. W still spends a lot of time in MBR napping or watching TV, or I find her in the lounge with the TV on in the background w/ head buried in her smart phone. However, have noticed that when sleeping in the same bed W isn’t always balancing on the edge of the mattress as earlier in the crisis. Sometimes the slightest little accidental body contact would’ve had her turning away and back to the edge of the bed, but not so over the last few days. Anyway, not trying to read too much into this behaviour and trying to keep expectations at 0.

[job]

HTM,

You are handling your situation very well. Yes, everything becomes "theirs" and they do come up w/some humdingers along the way. As for her continued to say/think that you are going to screw her over...it's normal thinking for them...but it is also what she's thinking of doing to you, but verbally saying you may do it to her. Guilt has a way of making them talk out loud too. So, listen very carefully to what she's saying because MLCers do love to talk.

She thinks she's got leverage over you and that you will be over backwards to leave her pension, etc., alone. They love to use custody and visitation of the children as leverage when it comes to money and doing what they want. Check out your situation very carefully and do not tell her what you discover. Keep that info close to the vest and when the time is right, you can reveal it...but from what you've posted, she may not have a leg to stand on in that area.

Your wife's memory is a bit muddled if she thought she loaned you money. Maybe she loaned it to someone else or someone loaned her money, but whatever the case, if you did got your loan and paid it off, then it's nothing but rubbish thinking.

Don't doubt yourself. They do make us question ourselves and they do become very good at gaslighting us along the way.

Hang in there!

[Huddy]

You know, of course, that's mainly bollox being punted by your W? Here in the UK, everything gets split 50/50 (that's everybody's pension) and unless there are particular issues with one parent having the kids, custody is also 50/50. A judge will decide at D, if you get there, and will always act in the interest of the children, not the parents.

All that nonsense about loans is another way of whacking you with a stick. If it's not noted that you had to pay it back on account of a D, it's history.

Stay strong and hold tight!

[HTM]

Thanks for your support Huddy, know you've been down this path to an extent. I'm actually wondering if I'll make it past the 2nd mediation meeting w/ W expecting to keep all that she thinks is hers & then have half of what's mine too; not going to happen on my watch. The perspective you offer wrt custody is reassuring, especially as I intend to stay in & around the area for schools/friends/family and can’t imagine Ss would want anything else; W wants to move away and seems to think nothing of uprooting Ss to this end.

Yep it's nonsense Huddy, W was just lashing out when bringing up lending me money. Even if she had helped me out all those years ago it would have been well before we started living together and could have no bearing on current financial separation.


Interesting remark from my W this morning...

Bedroom TV is on in the background while W gets ready for work and I’m awoken by a loud slanging match between two sisters on the Jeremy Kyle show -British equivalent to Jerry Springer. W apologises for it being so loud as to wake me up, then says “It makes me feel better about my life!” Of course, I could retort in numerous ways along the lines of...”Well your life is the result of all your own choices & decisions!” but I'm using LBS duct tape more & more these days.

[HTM]

Having one of those bad days...

W's birthday tomorrow and usually we would have gone out to eat/celebrate as a family or meet up with ILs -just as she is planning to do on Saturday but no invite for me. I would have bought some nice thoughtful gift like years before but this time I have only bought her a card; instead of signing it 'always & forever yours' I've just put 'All the best', still deliberating whether to give it to her at all.

As well as this, I go into the family bathroom this morning to find W didn’t rinse out the bath after trimming/shaving ‘downstairs’. W obviously making herself presentable for when she meets up with OM for a birthday treat over the next day or two; torture!

Ok I know this would be a very bad thing to do but hell do I want to email or text her the following...

I know you want to look presentable downstairs but can I ask that you rinse the bath out after trimming/shaving please? I don’t want to have to answer awkward questions from either of our boys.

Does your other guy know you're still sleeping half naked in my bed?

Would appreciate you not using the joint debit card when you are out seeing your other guy, thus making it obvious where you are!


At least I have a two-day course with a friend this weekend to distract me a little (GAL), might be a useful addition on my CV too.