The Fight For Self III

[CT1118]

Debated briefly on changing thread name, realized I could just keep this one the rest of my life. If I ever stop fighting for self, I would ask you to shoot me, but I will already be dead.

Do believe this is old one, moderator please fill if not?

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2696163&page=1

Will give more later tonight. Total long term GAL, finishing Graduate school began tonight, or so I thought. I had the wrong day, class is actually tomorrow - typical me. Anyway, free'd some time up. Dog walk in the immediate future.

[CT1118]

New here, been here? So you want detached. So many are waiting/wanting to be detached. I have only been here since the start of July and now we are almost at the start of September. Detached seems like this holy grail in the distance for so many wanting. I would point to two things on that:
1. The old idiom, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
2. listen to the repetition we all receive when we get here, what is in the MWD books we were all told to read...essentially, whatever you do, have a goal.
So we read about detachment in these advanced threads, where people have bled emotions for months. The heroes of Newcomers like RSG, Surfer, Coconut, and Cherry (to name a few, all here are heroes in my book) - yet they all have different view points and different approaches, you may begin with many, but eventually stick w/ the thread which you prefer the most. And then we call out to the old guards, like Sandi, god love her, she has paid her dues and still continues to pay it forward; I wish we did not need her so bad, but she is so freaking good.

What is your goal of detachment and what do you want by it? Seriously, ask yourself that. Please. I may have, but do not recall crying out for detachment. All I wanted when I got here was a way to make my W hear me. She can't, "they" won't. And to get to detachment, I had not plan or goal. To arrive here, I suffered severe bouts of anger, acrimony, and loving confusion which I called detachment. All in a circle, all in an hour, all in confused time. But when I arrived, I was certain, there was no mistake.

Let me tell you, detachment is not pain free. Detachment does not mean you do not have to set time aside to visit the prisoner. Detachment does not mean you have attained expertise. Detachment is not the end of questions. Feeling detachment for the first time means you just got invited to the party, but not that you know anyone. When you get there, will you walk in and introduce yourself or will will you hug the wall until you talk yourself into feeling unwelcome and retreat back to the solitude of your home, hoping when/if the next invitation arrives you are ready for it?
I wanted to post a gentle reminder to all who post on the DB Forums that we need to remember that we have all walks of life that post here as well as lurkers. The DB Forums have some of the most wonderful people posting, but we do tend to sometimes get caught up in the moment and forget what we accepted in the "terms and conditions" for posting here.

One of the "terms and conditions" that is in the Policies thread that Cadet has posted is stated as: "Participants shall treat each other with respect, refraining from rudeness and foul language."

Let's try to be as respectful as possible to all posters. Each and every poster that comes here is hurting and yes, some are angry and disappointed in their spouses and/or partners. Let's try to be patient, listen to what they have to say and remember...we all have different opinions on how a situation should be handled. Let's not forget that we were in their shoes a while back and weren't ready to hear what the posters had to offer in the way of advice and/or pearls of wisdom.

Please try to keep the language as clean as possible. I realize that we all tend to forget that we aren't sitting around w/a group of friends just shooting the breeze and anything that we say is okay, however, we do need to be mindful of those who do come here to read our postings and sometimes the language can be offensive to others.

We all have been there and done that...so let's help each other keep the respect alive and the language as clean as possible.
I have said it before, nothing interesting will ever happen in your life while you sit by yourself in your place. Nothing amazing will come of deciding you cannot go out and meet people, nothing remarkable will come from sacrificing yourself only to your children because your spouse gives so little, nothing will be if you refuse to be.

Will you not change because of the security your old life provided? Will you refuse the adventure because of fear? Will you not accept your own journey as an individual because you have been conditioned to think it requires two? If I come as one, will you refuse to embrace me?

We all, and I mean all, want those other people back (why else be here). But detachment might just let you feel the wind on your face, blowing your ears back, and smelling the life, just like a dog's head out an open window. If you read this before you have detached, let these be the questions you ask, let this be your goal. Detachment equals moments. It gives you moments back. Not all of them, but some. Once you have some moments back, you may begin to ask "How I feel right now, how can I hold onto this?" And you will begin to seek it. Only then do you stand a chance of becoming someone so amazing that others will seek you. That may include your spouse, and it may not; hopefully by the, it will include you.

- CT1118, American Bad A$$. Still in the Fight.

[Altair]

CT,
Impressive.
The men here continue to impress me with their innermost thoughts.

[hawker]

Good post CT! I spent most of the summer inside my house or in my pool. I didn't feel like going out and being social. I was miserable!!! I started making myself get out more and more and I have felt so much better! I still have my moments but you are correct in saying that is our chance to be amazing to yourself and others! Thanks for your posts you are inspiring!

[albac]

Well said CT,

The journey for some has been short so far and for others very long.
I'm almost 8 months since separation now.

I would not say I am detached yet but I'm certainly not the quiet nice guy I was 2 months ago. We all go about this our own way with help from what we can relate to on here. I have followed Sandi's advice the most as it speaks to me.

For the last month now I took Sandis advice and now take each day as if I was the one who left and not my W. It has made things so much easier. Don't get me wrong it is so hard as the interactions I have with my W are actually fun and we both get along great which is the stupid part of all this. So i am sacrificing those interactions for the greater goal of a R.

The point is detached or not do what works. When it doesn't work maybe try another approach. I'm with you though CT I think being fully detached comes at the point when you are fully willing to move on in life and leave them in the past. I am closer now then ever. It is still a daily struggle but i can see that my life can be great without her. That's the goal anything else is a bonus.

Again great post CT you seem to be in a good place with your thoughts.

[ForGump]

CT you ever do phone consult w/ MWD's group? Do they advise anything different than detach, GAL?

[job]

CT,

Very well said. Sounds like you've been doing some soul searching, which is good and I like the fact that you've come here to tell posters how you feel about detachment.

[CT1118]

Cadet - point taken. thank you sir.

FG - no I have not. However I would have surely used them if I could have afforded it. My W makes much more than I do, dropping to just my salary and sharing half of the costs for our s4's daycare has been crushing from a monetary standpoint. But, if can take the cost, why not go for it. All I know is what I have read, which appears to regard staying friend, but would rather someone first hand answer that for you.

[CT1118]

I spoke to my benefits people yesterday. Seems I am allotted a free 60 minute legal council as part of my employment package. I was actually there looking for financial advice to help with debt and the legal thing got mentioned. "Why not, its part of my salary" I thought and I did not even know it existed for me.

So I made the call to set it all up. Still do not want divorce, but hey, why not get some advice? So I called and found the entire thing to be like a satyr of television America. I am also skeptical by nurture (read my old threads if you need further insight into my head). Keep in mind, this call was just to set up a meeting, not the meeting itself.

First thing, before my name even, I am informed the call must be recorded (she said must, not will) and then I was asked if that was ok? I told her "the must did not indicate choice, so I guess it must be ok if I wish to proceed, correct?" She said that I was correct. Get my name and ask why I want advice "I am separated". Phone woman "Ok sir, let me ask you questions to get you to the correct divorce attorney".
"Wait, I did not say I wanted to get a divorce, I said I am separated. I just want to know what my legal standing is at this time"

Phone woman "Ok sir, these are things I have to say. How long have you been legally separated?"

"I am not legally separated, we are just apart and it has been for 6 months"

Phone woman "Ok, when will you be seeking legal separation?"

"I won't be if I have any say in it. I just want to speak with a lawyer and ask them the legal questions I have about my life. Such as shared debt and state laws"

Phone woman"Sir, would you expect this divorce to be uncontested or will there be contest"

"I don't know. I am not planning on divorcing, I want to be prepared if it comes, that's all"

Phone woman "so its that a yes?"

"No. I said I don't know"

Phone woman "Will you expect there to be a custody battle during the divorce?"

" I am sorry, I am not sure I have been clear. I am not seeking to divorce and do not know what the future holds. I just want to get an appointment with a lawyer"

Phone woman " we have to ask these questions sir, is t your answer yes?"

"No, my answer is I do not know"

Phone woman "Will you be the one filing for divorce in these proceedings?"

"Ok, I am sorry, all of your questions are geared towards divorce. I said I am separated and just want to speak with a lawyer about being separated. That's it, that's what I know. If you have any further questions with the word divorce in them, my answer is 'I don't know'".

So at this point she stopped asking questions and said she would simply mail me the closest law firm which deals with family matters and accepts my benefits. I said that sounds great. I know many people here have dealt w/ lawyers in these MR sitches. This just blew me away by how geared toward D society is. Perhaps I am naive. I do recall reading what MWD said in cptr 1 of DR about lawyers. But wow, how correct she was.

[ForGump]

CT -- I once worked for a state university, and took advantage of free legal counsel offered for legal matters not related to divorce. Your experience reminds me of what I went through. You were not dealing w/ a law office -- you were dealing with a company that administers the benefit. In any case, I think your point is still valid, that divorce is just very common. I mean, we all know it: 50% of first marriages, 60% of the second, etc. My recommendation is to be patient and tolerant of the stupid bureaucracy, and just give them answers they want. And then when you finally have time with a lawyer, talk about issues you really want to talk about. My experience with lawyers is that they vary a lot. Some are very aggressive, others are too passive, and hopefully you can find one that fits your philosophy just right.

[CT1118]

So today was a great day. I went to my son's Kindergarten welcome/ intro thing at his school. Big boy. Qualifies for K at 4 years old since his b-day is before the end of Sept. W and I were debating on his emotional ability, but decided if we begin and he cannot handle it, we can always w/draw him and put him back to pre-K until next fall, but ultimately and independently, we both arrived at thinking h is ready for K.

I then took him out and about.Got him a muffin, he went w/ me to buy my text books for my classes. I took him to observed group play session at the kid therapist. And he napped in an out this afternoon during a movie. Oh...and a happy meal. I really think McD's is garbage, but man kids love those happy meals.

And even though being w/ him today was the best part, a great part was being w/ my W at the school and I felt no confusion, fear, anger, awkwardness, sympathy, heroism, rescuing, apology, dependence, need, etc. I was a guy there with a girl and we share a kid and all three of us have love for one another - I did feel that.

[CT1118]

Let me get back on track with the Fight for Self here:

The Reinvention of All that Is Me

I know from reading around the forums the struggles we all have. Confusion, pain, anger, tears...list could continue across the spectrum until we reach strength, resolve, wisdom. It can be frustrating to be here and see some who began after us make gains before us. Likewise, to read stories from those who feel stuck in one spot, from those who are just beginning, or from those two years down the roads still working. Every single person's story speaks to the challenge of what we face.

My friend albac posted something on another friend thread recently I wanted to clip and share here, because it is worth spreading:

From albac -

"The reinvention of all that is me"
I also wrote this above. It is a clip from a paragraph of albac replying. Its out of context, but stands alone. I may put it on a T-shirt, or name my next book, album or dog after that sentence. Words are power, and that sentence has magic. If you are wondering, 'what is this divorce busting all about?' There you go, those 7 words cut it to the bone. Nothing is about anything here but you. Open your heart to this idea.

"I have worked on me but she at the moment she is just trying to push her problems aside. If she doesn't want to work on her then we will never work."
albac takes us into the sublime again. This is so true. But it works in reverse - if your personal mission statement does not begin with "I have worked on me..." you will remain just a portrait of something that used to be to your other. And the really hard work too. The really hard work that you have to do... Do it.

"So I guess my point is as hard as it is to swallow, I need to turn my ego off for a second and realize that right this minute as things stand I am far better off without my W. It hurts for sure but it is the only way."

Yes Yes Yes. ad infinitum. Once again, this is hits core concept so well. Awakening. Realization. Hope. For the self, all of the above.

So thank you albac. In all fairness to albac, the above are removed fro the context of the thread where I got them. However, the statements lept upon me as I read them and surely they have meaning on their own.

At some point we can all wake up to the fact that our lives are not about our others. We can love them, we can want them, we can hope they get better - H3ll, if we are fully evolved and that type of person, we can hope they are happy with or without us. My hardest part of this has been the children. Not just my own story, but reading others, so much confusion with the children there. Most of us agree, "...were it not for the kids..." maybe that's easy to say and maybe its true - I will never know, I am going through this with a child. But even then, our lives are not about those kids. This was the hardest to swallow, and the last pill I had to.

Our children do not need a shell of the person who looks like mom/dad, our children require the power source inside. Think about it. If one day our kids do not love or respect us, it will not be because we had a great looking corpse, it will be because inside we were a corpse. As well, our children are not the weapons of war. Not hammers, not nails, not for us to wield. This was the last pill for me. I have to come first to put my son first. I have to save my own life so that I will not create a second victim. I have to be into me for me; you must be for you.

Look at yourself, learn yourself, judge yourself, believe in yourself, work on yourself, improve yourself, heal yourself, believe in yourself, look at yourself, know yourself, help others, repeat as required.

[albac]

Well said CT and I am glad you can relate to my thoughts.

I hope you are having a great weekend and working on yourself. I am feeling the best I have felt in so long. It has been a long 8 months since W left but the tables have turned. I wouldn't say I am as happy as ever as it would not be true but I feel excited for the future and the person I can be along with all the possibilities.

As long as we are alive things can always get better! Have a great weekend

[CT1118]

I hope you are having a great weekend and working on yourself. I am feeling the best I have felt in so long. I wouldn't say I am as happy as ever as it would not be true but I feel excited for the future and the person I can be along with all the possibilities.
As long as we are alive things can always get better! Have a great weekend

Amen! I feel completely the same way. And thanks buddy, it has been a great weekend thus far. Long one too. I took a couple days off because my son's school was closed. The weather was bad here from this storm, so I am feeling a bit of cabin fever, but the boy and I made the most of it. Tomorrow is supposed to be lovely though and a friend contacted me for a hike with our kids. I take him to the IC at 8am, but after that - day is ours!

[albac]

Hike sounds great! We are just coming out of winter here and the weather is meant to start getting better this week so I am keen to get out have some fun in the sun!

Have fun tomorrow!

[CT1118]

Very good day of GAL today. Took s4 to the IC this morning. This was his first independent assessment. Some things noted, but otherwise told he was doing very well. Then went to meet friends for hike. Three dads, one mom, 4 sons, all kids 4 or 5 years old - 7.5 miles and they all held up. Followed with some lunch.

Took s4 to his mom's townhouse this evening - first day of Kindergarten tomorrow. Monday night is usually not her night, but she wanted him tonight and I get that. I will meet them both at school in the morning to get some pictures in of my big boy heading into his class. Pretty excited!

Having spent 4 of the last 5 days in a row with him, feeling some withdraws from his funny little self already - will not have him again until Thursday. I got a bunch of work to do for school though, so will make best use of my time.

[ForGump]

Hey CT, hope you're hanging tough.

[CT1118]

ForGump - Late to the party, been very busy, but Indeed I am.

Have had my son tonight. Fantastic. Saw my favorite band last night, was excellent. Saw them with spouse, she asked, she paid. Night went really well. But I am not reading into it. I see it as a sign of only moving things forward by 1 yard at best, remaining equal at nominal, not really sure how things could get worse so that one is open. I could easily loose two yards tomorrow. And my son was at her place last night w/ a babysitter.

So this morning she opened w/ some spew - she called me, spew was not at me for me, but at how difficult son is to handle, her money, the cost of groceries, etc. Just listened. "What a horrible follow up to a great evening", I thought. She asked if I could get son 3 hours prior to what we agreed upon. I am well past any DB stuff pertaining to my son and saying I have plans, now I will not offer to take him early, I have never been asked, but after what she said and how she sounded - yeah, you want him out I got him - for him and me. So she is collapsing and for many other reasons that that brief example. I am not happy to say that, but during last night before the concert, she did say "I need to make this better, I need to get better" which was positive, and I was proud of myself that I did not finish that sentence for her, just looked, listened, and nodded. In the event the above is positive, there is still a long way to go as I feel really good on my own being me.

Anyway, this morning was all about me - studied, paid bills, played guitar, got coffee, cleaned apartment, rode skateboard, picked up son at 2pm. To quote Mike Muir "bring me down?...you can't bring me down" Banner day my friend(s).

[albac]

Good stuff CT, sounds like your W might be waking up!

Keep up the good work. Fight for self brother.

[CT1118]

Fight for self brother.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!

[CT1118]

General - for self:

So, is your mindset fixed against growth?

Do you avoid challenges?

Do you avoid change?

Do you quit new things easily?

Do you ignore feedback?

Are you threatened by the success of others?

Do you try hard to seem smart?

Do you try to appear capable?

Fix your mindset towards growth:

There is a challenge before you - will you embrace it?

Can you give your best effort?

Are you able to learn from feedback?

Can the success of others inspire you?

Do you know your intelligence can alter if you work hard?

Do you understand that failure is an opportunity for growth?

Ask yourself - are you able to praise yourself? Do not praise your goal accomplishments, praise your effort to get there. It's not "you have done this, this is great", it's "you must have worked really hard on this - great job!". Your intelligence about the world is not fixed. The way you understand your life, your sitch, is not the final way to understand it. You are here because you are struggling, do you accept your spouse or other is struggling too? Your knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom about this world shall only improve through challenge; as ugly as this is right now, you will not only be OK, you will be better than you can imagine.

PS - 10 of the questions above came from a handout at my son's first day of Kindergarten - I wish emotions were so well thought of when Gen X entered the US school system.

[ForGump]

Hope you're being the lighthouse.

[CT1118]

Hope you're being the lighthouse.

Thank you sir. I hope so too. Some very recent conversations lead me to believe this may be the case. Especially in the realm of parenting. I have also heard her ask me some questions about what I have done to turn my life around (she is noticing) which seems positive, that is if she does something positive with the information. One never really knows until they know though, do they? I am just going to keep being me, keep focused on myself and my son, and doing what I am doing.

[PacLove]

Hey CT1118,

Didn't want to hi-jack Albac's thread so thought I'd reply to a post you made there here, on your thread... I was really intrigued by your post on how W vs. H's interact with their AP's. But was even more intrigued by your comments around exposure...

Lastly and again, women want to protect their reputation. Which helps explain why the WW in an A will not tell the world about it, only to those BFF's who will support such and action. It is also why professionals recommend the LBS not exposing the A to friends/family or confronting the OM publicly - b/c this will shatter the WW's reputation and if you ever want her back, destroying her reputation will be the worst way to approach getting her to come home. No man ever suffered a stained reputation from an A for very long, women however are called to question their entire lives for one.

I can totally see this - but was wondering on what basis you have come across this? I've gone back and forth on the exposure thing for the last 6 months and have read many websites in favor of it. I haven't exposed but have shared with close friends - so I'm sure that will make R difficult later on (but W currently doesn't know they know, so it would be up for me at some point to come clean about it during R - if it happens)

It also explains why she keeps pretending to the outside world everything is normal whereas I've been more open about our separation when people keep asking me where W is.

It's interesting if I read your post about Jealousy:

But women tend to be directly jealous of the other women. One of a woman's most respected treasure is her dignity.

It may seem like the logical answer here is for us to "date/move on" or try and get the OM to find someone else thereby making W Jealous... if only it were that easy!

[CT1118]

PacLove - wow am I so sorry I have just seen your question(s). Did not mean to ignore.

So on the initial part...OK, so by what basis did I come across that information and/or opinion? To answer you, I really do not recall the context for which I said that, however, it looks about right. If you cover my "Fight for Self" thread, there is a ton of me in there and a ton of research that I did, where I tried my very best to offer some details from things I've read. This is my whole point of the fight for self threads - to post those studies and how the help my journey.
So the W in an A tends to follow a script. Part of it includes new friends who support their behavior, dismissing or distancing old friends and family, self-justifying behavior, going through identity crisis,and meanwhile not seeing the truth of normative human psychology on what they are actually doing - WW are experiencing a mindset highly correlative to a teenagers mind. So in basics, imagine being back in high school, what mattered most? The reputation - nerd, cool, awkward, smart - whatever, we were all in some click - and in that click what matter most - reputation.

So for me, my spouse's father, sister, cousins, my own parents, her best friends etc do not know she is in an A. Why, I left it up to her to tell them, which I told her. She lied to me and said she did, but I found out this was not true some time ago. Actually, her aunt just called me today to ask how I was doing and I realized during the conversation she had no idea her niece and I were apart - I was told she did, so while I did not lie, I used conversation tactics to avert topics. Why? Not to keep up appearances, but it is not my story to tell to my spouses family. The truth will come out in time.

I do not support telling or exposing. You may accidentally make it happen though, I did, but only because I was told certain people knew and they didn't, after that I stopped.

If you value your potential for M and want to get back to R so you can get back to M, then I am not so convinced telling family or friends that your W is having an A is the right answer.That said, what is right for you? What would be your motivation? What would be your goal? I think once you D, perhaps it might be fair game to explain your perspective as to why you will never see a beloved Aunt-in-law again. But before that, what is your goal...to guilt your W back into your arms?

PacLove - this is not about the OM. The OM is a symptom of her pain and confusion. This is about you. You have choices. You can act out of revenge or you can act out of self-respect. Which one of those does exposure fit into for you? It is not move on or date at this point - there is not much self-respect in using one human's emotions to get beyond another's. For me it is choosing the self above all others, not so that I may be selfish, but so that I may be selfless.

Did that make sense? If not, let me know I will do the research on my own quotes and get back for another try. In the meantime, I will read up on your sitch one way or the other.

[CT1118]

PS everyone - today my s4 turned into s5. And in further reason for me to celebrate, this marks a full 7 months of a narcotics free life. No desire, no return - ever, in the long future of forever, will I ever go back to that version of me, for as long as forever lasts and for as long as ever has time. And...I took my S spouse and my fresh s5 out for tacos tonight for his Bday, and I did not even boast about this victory, as today was about him, not me. But he is with his mom right now, and this place is for me, so I will boast here. I hope my son never needs to be here.

[ForGump]

Happy S5 birthday, man...

[PacLove]

CT,

Thanks, yeah I haven't told any of my W's family or friends... as tempting as it has been. I'm sure some suspect something, other's still think we are together. I doubt very much she's said anything to her parents, they live across the world and don't visit - so pretty easy to hide it.

Appreciate the response!

[AndrewP]

CT - no matter how this turns out you've got a lot to be proud of.

[lt0402]

CT - no matter how this turns out you've got a lot to be proud of.

Agree. CT, you are an amazing individual my friend. Happy bday to S5 and great job on 7 months! Boast away brother!

[CT1118]

CT - no matter how this turns out you've got a lot to be proud of.

Agree. CT, you are an amazing individual my friend. Happy bday to S5 and great job on 7 months! Boast away brother!

CT1118 *humbly bowing in respect*

As well, not sure how it will turn out either Andrew P, but I will be proud of myself and thank you. Last Sunday when dropping off son, she walked across the room to me, hugged me deep and told me she loved me. Got it again this morning and this evening. She was very close into my space at son's party as in standing so close she was touching me and then she touched me. She was also wherever I was. I kept moving to different rooms trying to photograph the party, and then there she would be and get in my space again. But alas, she is still seeing OM. How's that conundrum for the MLC mindset? Actually I know why, because she is a chaos kid; she even admitted to living her life in chaos today and not knowing how to live without it. She asked what I thought, and so I said "my body is aging, I am getting older, and I am now closer to end of my life than to the beginning. We are still in the childhood of our old age, so to speak. The choice today is change the things we do not like about ourselves right now, or we live with them forever." It was the moment, and I seized it and I wasn't offensive; I did not say much, but it was eloquent. It was also something I had written in my journal about three weeks ago - so if you need a reason to record your thoughts, there it is; you can whip those suckers out when needed.

So I am not mind reading - just stating facts. Hopes are not up, self-respect is not down. Come what may. I know I feel good, I know I look good, I know I am good, my son loves me, my little black dog needs a bath - I know this because I view it as true. Still work to do on me, but the work I have done is working.

[CT1118]

After months of self reflection, dismantling my issues, determining what was purely my nature and what was taught via nurture. Examining deeply who I was, who I am, and who I wish to become. Asking what thoughts are real, what thoughts can I change, what do I want to keep and what do I want to let go?

The work I have done on my own, the assistance I have received here. The effort to make new connections and rebuild the old ones worth saving. This stuff all added up and I realized that I really want to help people right now. I have things to offer: skills that can be taught, education that can be shared, words which can be supportive. In light of this, I still have much to learn - a professor once told me "I teach so that I may also learn". I really like that. So, it took me a few days, but I am now officially an American Red Cross Volunteer. My time is strict these days, so I am shooting for 1 or 2 hours a week right now, but with the hopes that this experience could lead to a lifetime of learning and assisting.

I think this decision fully fits what my hopes were in using the Fight for Self thread. Yet it also fulfills what I understand to be the point of DB - you can become a better you, a more interesting you, a more compassionate you, a more open you, a more adventurous you. This will attract others to you; as MWD noted in a video, if not your spouse, than you will just be that much better for the next person, I would tack on that much better for all persons. Will let you all know how it goes; if it does not go I how I expect, I am expecting it to be for time reasons, but engaging with an open heart and an open mind.

Still in the fight.

[PacLove]

CT - I applaud you for finding the time in your schedule to becoming a Volunteer - congrats. I've been trying myself to find something I can do but my time is so limited between GAL activities and my D as I've got majority custody... the best would be to find something we can do together. I haven't given up and will keep searching.

Your response to your W at the party sounded cool, calm and collected, a good emphasis on why we should journal more... I started out strong but lately have only been writing in it 1-2 times a month. Perhaps a good sign of detaching (it started out with me recording everything W did transitioning to more about myself)

[CT1118]

PacLove, Thank you - it will take focus on my part to not allow a very good thing to become a very bad thing, i.e. a stress point. This is why I am keeping target goals for time quite low on myself.

Thanks for the support of my words. I still write frequently, but shifted most of it too a notepad app, just moves faster. I have been getting a bunch of touch -n- go from her in the past three weeks, but like I said, expectations stay low, she is still in an A. Hell, even when the A ends, she still has a haystack of work to do, so....

There it is.

PS, is your D9 like most in that she loves horses? A friend of mine takes his D8 to horse stables every other Saturday and they volunteer a couple hours. She gets to ride them as repayment so to speak.

[PacLove]

CT - she loves all animals, not a bad idea. We had talked about volunteering at an animal shelter or something along those lines. What I'd really like to do is do something with the less fortunate but most homeless shelters and food banks are either not kid friendly or their hours are very limited.

Our schedule is still too wonky and all over the place right now though to commit to much so we'll have to see how things play out after Oct.

[CT1118]

Good luck with it buddy. I think teaching kids to give back can be one of the more inspiring message/lessons we can offer.

[CT1118]

Mega-GAL today. Six months ago I signed up for a volunteer service to provide a specific type of work to US Veterans. I just wanted to help - the nonprofit read my credentials and asked me to lead. Well, six months ago I had about jack and S going on since my W was out so I agreed. Today was the day for the service and it went about as incredible as things get! I pulled a team of skilled professionals together, pulled off the work, and did a really positive thing for both the public, US Veterans, and my professional industry. Felt so very very good to give back to community. Felt so very very good to give back to me. It is pure when the extrinsic and intrinsic selves are balanced properly!

And I made the paper, which is what I have called "mom candy" for many years. Mom's love that s__t. Plus my dad came out and helped, which was really cool b/c he is a pretty old, still quite strong, does not give an s how he dresses (which is funny) and he told me he was proud of me, which is not something I got a lot of as a kid. Great day.

[ForGump]

That's huge -- your Dad being proud. I wish my Dad had told me that more often.

[AndrewP]

Reaching all the way down for a bit "high 5" at you CT1118!

[JRuss]

That is awesome, CT1118. Really cool and especially great because you got to do it with your Dad.

[SH_]

CT1118,

Just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing on my thread and the support you provided.
I read it several times and will refer many more times for sure.
Thank you friend.

[mulesqb]

Mega-GAL today. Six months ago I signed up for a volunteer service to provide a specific type of work to US Veterans. I just wanted to help - the nonprofit read my credentials and asked me to lead. Well, six months ago I had about jack and S going on since my W was out so I agreed. Today was the day for the service and it went about as incredible as things get! I pulled a team of skilled professionals together, pulled off the work, and did a really positive thing for both the public, US Veterans, and my professional industry. Felt so very very good to give back to community. Felt so very very good to give back to me. It is pure when the extrinsic and intrinsic selves are balanced properly!

And I made the paper, which is what I have called "mom candy" for many years. Mom's love that s__t. Plus my dad came out and helped, which was really cool b/c he is a pretty old, still quite strong, does not give an s how he dresses (which is funny) and he told me he was proud of me, which is not something I got a lot of as a kid. Great day.

Much respect CT. You truly embody Strength and Honor. You will be fine, no matter the outcome.

Mules

[CT1118]

Thank you everyone, seriously. I do truly appreciate. Mules, I hope what you said is true, although I believe it will be myself.

The thing is, going through the DB'ing, one constantly finds things they need to work on...at least I do. The surface stuff was easy - few extra pounds, wearing old closes, when was the last time you went out for fun. Then you have to dig, and you find lumps of coal, until you hit veins of coal. So you work on that. But then while you are down there, you are still learning what to look for, case in point...

I felt great on my own about this volunteer service for many reasons. Like I said, I signed up 6 months ago, a time when I was still 3.5 months away from finding the DB forum. I remember thinking at the time I signed up that I will not know where I will be in 6 months, but I just very well may need this experience at that time. So the newspaper article caught my S'd spouse's attention too - she told me that she was very proud of me and how noble it was, how she wised she could be more like that. It took me a few hours, but it clicked when I realized - the validation of a great act is deserved, there is nothing wrong with promoting yourself for creating great acts, but in my mind I was placing her validation above that of others, as opposed to a more equal playing field. I was really glad I caught that path of thinking in my head, know I know what it looks like. Goes to show - such things continue, and the road is long.

Thank you all again. What are you all proud of recently? Take a piece of the thread - its here for everyone.

[JRuss]

CT1118 -- like you I started looking about 6-7 months ago for GAL volunteer opportunities. I gravitated pretty quickly toward something in the hospital. It took a surprisingly long time to get through the application process, interviews and training, but I'm now able to volunteer (I usually go Sundays) at the hospital by going around various wards and visiting with patients, asking what I can do (non-medically) to make their stays better, etc. The main benefit the patients get seems to be the conversation even more so than what I can get for them. I feel so great (but tired -- I'm an introvert) afterwards, to the point where I've asked myself where the line between pure altruism and self-interested behavior is. Am I doing it for the people stuck in the hospital, or for me? And is "both" an ok answer (I think it is)?

[ForGump]

I've asked myself where the line between pure altruism and self-interested behavior is. Am I doing it for the people stuck in the hospital, or for me? And is "both" an ok answer (I think it is)?

I wholeheartedly agree.

One life lesson I learned early in my adult life is that it's arrogant to think that we are complete individuals. We are social animals that depend on family and friends, mentally, materially and socially.

It's OK for you to both give and take from people in need. Not only OK -- quite healthy.

I applaud both of you for your volunteering. I am thinking about doing it myself.

[mulesqb]

Wow, I read this thread and you guys are so much healthier than you think you are. I have the experience of knowing how it ends in D. My problem was that I was too caught up in the minutiae to be good at DB. I learned too late. But a funny thing happened. I liked, no make that loved the way my future was going to look. I was lucky. I was a man who was able to get full custody of my kids. And once I truly dropped the rope I was happy with myself. But let's be clear, there is nothing wrong with fighting for your M and your family and making mistakes. That's why we all ended up here.

Make your changes. But be true to yourself. That deep down self. Don't let anyone change your values or turn you into something you're truly not. I think DB is just helping you find the best version of you. For me it was too late to save my M, but when I got to where I wanted to be, that didnt matter to me because my XW was truly no longer attractive to me. And being around her wasn't weird for me any more. I think that's when you know the rope has been dropped.

I know you all can handle it.

Strength and Honor. You all have it.

Mules

[CT1118]

Wow, I read this thread and you guys are so much healthier than you think you are. I have the experience of knowing how it ends in D. My problem was that I was too caught up in the minutiae to be good at DB. I learned too late. But a funny thing happened. I liked, no make that loved the way my future was going to look. I was lucky. I was a man who was able to get full custody of my kids. And once I truly dropped the rope I was happy with myself. But let's be clear, there is nothing wrong with fighting for your M and your family and making mistakes. That's why we all ended up here.

Make your changes. But be true to yourself. That deep down self. Don't let anyone change your values or turn you into something you're truly not. I think DB is just helping you find the best version of you. For me it was too late to save my M, but when I got to where I wanted to be, that didnt matter to me because my XW was truly no longer attractive to me. And being around her wasn't weird for me any more. I think that's when you know the rope has been dropped.

I know you all can handle it.

Strength and Honor. You all have it.

Mules

If you are a new DB'er and you are poking thru the posts, you should read Mules comment and let it sink in. Sink,in deep.

[CT1118]

The fight for self lately has been more like fight for time. It's good though, all positive, all very positive. Son is having some issues at school, still new though. Work seems to enjoy rewarding the hard worker with more hard work. Wife and I still split. Dog is still little and black and today he smelled like a mule.

Somewhere in there though - making the optimal use of time after obligations remains important. I did actually watch some TV tonight, my son was the opportunity. Then we gave the little black dog a bath. S5 loved it, laughing "Daddy, [little black dog's name] is in my bathtub! That' so silly Daddy!" On the extrinsic GAL level too though, as in I wrote two blogs on management for one class and read a full chapter on trust in leadership for another.
Best thing today, a guy who works for one of the units I am in charge of won a major award at work today; I had worked with the guy's supervisor to get the nomination in and he got it. Cash bonus, time off, and a little internal press coverage. His face - totally unexpected. Felt good to see because he earned it.

So I do hope Newcomers read my threads, because I was where you are today and I am not where the older guards here are now, but...- how does the above tie into DB'ing? Well, I DB'd and I got a life, and the above is a snapshot of it from today and today was a good day. Not what you expect on day 1 here, or even day 60. But you know what? I feel different now, have for a while, because DB'ing is about you and your journey. Not there yet, but I see a horizon, I set goals, I am one day at a time. So yes, this was a journal note for me, but if newbies read it - know it may end up looking like the above; washing little black dogs, reading textbooks, eating a ham sandwich for dinner. But, I feel good about such simple things. I feel content in my own skin. You can get there.

I am taking my son to volunteer with me on Saturday. Not for Red Cross, but for an Arbor Day event. That's right, Arbor Day in October. The tree we plant will be the 28th or so tree he and I have planted together since he was two. Bada*s that my s5 likes planting trees with his dad.

[lt0402]

CT, it's always awesome reading your posts. You're at such a great point right now it's amazing! It's funny how it IS different now. When we all joined the forum a few months ago, everything seemed to be a blur of emotion, confusion, fear, etc.

Now, while not perfect, we at least seem to have gained enough awareness and knowledge to get through the day to day. Some of us (CT!) are further down the path than others (myself!) but we all seem to be a hell of a lot better than we were when we started this thing. I find myself very interested in seeing how things shake out once everything is said and done. It remains a tough path to follow, but that path gets easier with each passing day.

Newcomers can gain a lot of comfort from reading Mules and CTs posts above. Know that there is a point where you can manage the pain and even push past it. It's not as dark as it seems when you first begin the journey.

CT, great post and it makes me glad that you are finding so much happiness as of late! This pretty much encapsulates what it's all about...

Bada*s that my s5 likes planting trees with his dad.

Keep it up brother!

[mulesqb]

CT118 - All I can say is how great you are doing in the defining moment of your adult life. I have no doubt the next phase for you will be absolutely amazing. And I want to make clear I am not advocating giving up or anything like that. Just want newbies to lose the fear. If I had lost the fear I would have been MUCH better at DBing. When I lost it, it was way too late. To me that was the hardest part.

You have definitely lost the fear.

Strength and Honor. You got this.

Mules

[mulesqb]

Newcomers can gain a lot of comfort from reading Mules and CTs posts above. Know that there is a point where you can manage the pain and even push past it. It's not as dark as it seems when you first begin the journey.

Hi lt,

I think you just summed up why I came back to post for a while and see if I can help people. It's not as dark, in fact it's pretty darn sunny. You either have a great new R with your spouse. Or you have a second chance with a better you and a much smarter you.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[CT1118]

You either have a great new R with your spouse. Or you have a second chance with a better you and a much smarter you.
Strength and Honor.

Mulesqb - thanks so much for coming back to look at the DB site. I have truly enjoyed our interactions. I thought your quote above was really valuable. I feel comfortable with either of the above options.

CT, it's always awesome reading your posts. You're at such a great point right now it's amazing! It's funny how it IS different now. When we all joined the forum a few months ago, everything seemed to be a blur of emotion, confusion, fear, etc.
Now, while not perfect, we at least seem to have gained enough awareness and knowledge to get through the day to day.

So very true It, so very true. I mean, this is entirely the point. There are a number of us here from the Spring/Summer 2016 club. Some of us found this place soon after BD, some a few months after. So here it is months later, still visiting, still waining, still waxing. As active as I am, even if I don't comment, I still truly find peace in coming here to read up on people - I feel like I know so many here. Friendship is strange in the DB world. I mean, we dump some really heavy personal dark $hit here. People ask us stuff which I think would never come in most 1:1 face conversations. And yet, truly anonymous. You are a great dude It0402. I watched how you checked in on FG and RSG in their brown-outs - daily posts. That is worth something man, and they got it.

And I want to make clear I am not advocating giving up or anything like that. Just want newbies to lose the fear. If I had lost the fear I would have been MUCH better at DBing. When I lost it, it was way too late. To me that was the hardest part.

Again, amen to this Mules. Loosing fear. You're support is really inspiring me about me, as so many others gain too from reading it. You know what - I am going to break this reply up into another post. Now though, the spouse and I had a parent teacher thing at s5's school tonight. After, we went to his post-school daycare together (.5 miles from school) to wrap some business with them. She invited me for tacos with son, but when she asked she did not stop talking; caveats flowed like "I mean, I know this is your night 'off' from him and if you have other plans..." etc. She did not know I did have plans that I had already cancelled to make the last minute teacher thing, I did not tell her, it did not matter as they were already cancelled. I said yes. It was a nice time. I am not reading into it. As I sit her now, I do not have a 'pep in my step' or false hopes. This is after some tension last week. But her murmured words made me see some small effort which I have not seen in a while, so I accepted. Beauty was, when you find your"self" again (or in my case for the first time), you can relax through this. She was awkward enough that she spilled her full glass of water onto my lap like some teenager "oh $hit" moment in a movie(she did, she spilled her water all over me). I laughed, because really, what does $hit like that matter anymore. Water never killed pants, and laughter never hurt.

"Tough times don't last, tough people do." --My Dad to me years ago, me to my boys now.

Mind if I steal this to tell my son? Better yet, let's trade 50/50. My dad always told me "At death, the only thing you will truly leave behind is your name. It's up to you how people will use it."

[CT1118]

The fear within. I think fear is pretty healthy and pretty normal. We are all built with a "fight or flight" sequence. I am not going to solve fear with a single post or even a series of posts, but this post is called "The Fight for Self" for a reason, so I will give another honest post about my"self".

I know with my newbie experience, I was not sure it was fear I wanted to lose when I arrived, I wanted stuff fixed - and right away! I think so many come here looking for an equation as if this was algebraic... If your WAS did this/You did this X You say this/You act like this = all is right as rain.

The idea of coming to DB looking for such a solution seems really normal. It is normal. I mean, no one calls it out like that, but so many words are said to arrive at "What the h3ll am I supposed to do?". Clothes off, in front of the classroom, but here in DB world, unlike the allegorical nightmare, the class is not laughing. The class gets up and someone gives you their shirt, someone has extra pants in their locker, someone sees you shaking with reality and gives you a hug. Then another hug. Then someone hands you a textbook and says "you are part of this class now, here is your homework, catch up". Then someone tells you they are wearing borrowed clothes too, which someone gave to them, from which someone gave to them...more hugs are followed by stares of honesty. Followed by words of strength. Your fear can make you feel like you are being hazed for having it, but then you realize it is just an older sibling telling you like it is. They want you strong, they need you strong, they need you, they need you too. They need you to face your fear, because once you realize it is fear, you realize they need you too, they need you strong, because this ain't a classroom you were naked in front of, this is virtual family; and its bigger than your fear.

All of us, every single human on earth, is born with a "fight or flight" impulse. It is survival instinct. Some of us lock into one or the other all the time, most of us will be a mix. Some full grown men turn on a bathroom light, see a spider and leap, some little girls can go through same thing and immediately respond by killing the spider. Some, will go through this, do nothing other than look, and both the spider and the person move forward without incident.

The truth as I see it, we all came here in fear. Yet, some of us came here hoping to fly from fear. Some of us came here hoping to learn how to fight fear. Most of us did not call why we came here, fear. If you are reading this...if you are reading this and think you are not fighting or flying, you have either been here long enough to learn how to survive on your own, or you are in denial of your"self". But you are not, not if you are reading this - you had to dig deep into my posts to find this, so you are in want. In want of something about your fear.

Your spouse leaving you, for whatever the reason, is scaring the living $hit out of you right now. It's ok to feel that. I can say from experience. If you seek help from people here, and you LISTEN AND DO what the positive advice suggests two things will happen: 1. a person or persons with more experience and more time "in" will adopt you and your sitch, and if you listen to them, you will learn how to improve yourself and face your fear. Similarly, your contemporaries will make "misery loves company" a very real statement, and in time misery will become support and renewed outlook. 2. You will get better, feel better, and be better. You will get better, feel better, and be better if you follow sound advice, believe in yourself, and trust in your own ability to take care of you, to believe in you, and to be you. Shout that from a mountain, one that you built for you.

Fear remains. Did you know you have a choice on how to respond to it?

Still in the fight.

[SH_]

CT1118-

I simply want to say "BRAVO!"
Wonderful post...
and as always great articulation of thoughts for those that can most benefit...

I hope that it is not taboo or out of line to piggyback on your eloquent words post with some additional thoughts that I had shared with a fellow DB brother here. I found several good ted talks that present FEAR in a different manner that may help different folks overcome it...

FEAR-How will you overcome it and be the man only a fool will leave?

“Fear is not real. The only place that fear can exist is in our thoughts of the future. It is a product of our imagination, causing us to fear things that do not at present and may not ever exist. That is near insanity. Do not misunderstand me danger is very real but fear is a choice.” Will Smith

Friend,

I am going to share some resources and information that has helped me tremendously as I am traveling my own journey.
I am going to challenge you to take actions that you have thus far avoided doing.
The actions will be focused on you so you can step up, man up, and become the person only a fool will leave.
Will you commit?
Will you permit me to be an accountability partner for getting on?
If you agree here is your homework to get started.

_________________________________________________________________________________________
The first thing I want you to do is google the Black Door Story.
Read several of the links. There are minor details that change, but the message is the same.
Share with me how you see yourself playing a role in the story.
Share with me how you see fear and what is through the door.

The second part of your homework is to find and watch the TedX talks for the following. You can seek out more as there are many of them, but these ones hit home for me from several angles.

1. F*** the fear, it's not real anyway! By Deri Llewellyn-Davies
2. Be The Warrior Not The Worrier - Fighting Anxiety & Fear By Angela Ceberano
3. Reprogramming your brain to overcome fear By Olympia LePoint
4. 100 days without fear By Michelle Poler

After watching each of them, share back what you took from them and one action that you will implement for yourself.

My last bit of homework is to have you ponder on the tag line you are using in your signature.
Quote:

To worry or not has no affect on the outcome. But, moving forward, letting go, and making changes can.

Why did you choose this?
What are you doing to apply it to your sitch?
What do you understand the meaning of this to be?

My friend, you have to start somewhere. And sometimes that is just starting something.
Lets put the fear to the side and get moving.

"If you live in fear of the future because of what happened in your past, you’ll end up losing what you have in the present." Nissan Panwar

“Everything you want is on the other side of fear.” Jack Canfield

"Thinking will not overcome fear but action will." W. Clement Stone

[CT1118]

SH_ - you HJck this thread anytime you want. I wish more would. This is not and has never been about me. Yeah my P-biz is on here, but the Fight for Self is open to whomever, whenever, decide to advance it. You did, let's get some.

[lt0402]

So very true It, so very true. I mean, this is entirely the point. There are a number of us here from the Spring/Summer 2016 club. Some of us found this place soon after BD, some a few months after. So here it is months later, still visiting, still waining, still waxing. As active as I am, even if I don't comment, I still truly find peace in coming here to read up on people - I feel like I know so many here. Friendship is strange in the DB world. I mean, we dump some really heavy personal dark $hit here. People ask us stuff which I think would never come in most 1:1 face conversations. And yet, truly anonymous.

You're spot on, friendship is very, very strange in the DB world CT. I kind of view it as a brotherhood. It's amazing how even in complete anonymity we all can care so much for the well being of others around here. Just look at the immediate and caring focus newcomers get from both rookies and vets alike when they first post. A lot of great, quality folks around here.

I also find peace in reading up on how everyone is doing. It's funny bc at times I find myself fairly stressed in my thread, but hopping over and offering my thoughts in another completely alleviates that stress. It's strange really, but it does highlight how much easier it is to think rationally and calmly when you're not directly involved in a situation. A gentle reminder for me to get myself back to level and approach my situation rationally.

All that said, I don't know that any of us summer/spring 2016 folks would be where we are without each other. Personally, the support/friendship/advice I've gotten from everyone has kept me from being lost many a day. while it [censored] that our bonds had to be forged under such trying and painful circumstances, I can think of no better people to be battling through this with than the folks on this board.

Sappy enough for you?

[CT1118]

I also find peace in reading up on how everyone is doing. It's funny bc at times I find myself fairly stressed in my thread, but hopping over and offering my thoughts in another completely alleviates that stress. It's strange really, but it does highlight how much easier it is to think rationally and calmly when you're not directly involved in a situation. A gentle reminder for me to get myself back to level and approach my situation rationally.

All that said, I don't know that any of us summer/spring 2016 folks would be where we are without each other. Personally, the support/friendship/advice I've gotten from everyone has kept me from being lost many a day. while it [censored] that our bonds had to be forged under such trying and painful circumstances, I can think of no better people to be battling through this with than the folks on this board.

Truth. This is the truth above. Thanks It0402.

I won an award today. Was at the Arbor Day celebration as I stated I would be. Won an award, for my effort to improve trees and tree benefits in an urban environment. I had honestly forgotten that I may have had the award when I wrote last night and when I got there today. My son got to see it - me, on stage, award handed, Dad humbled, Dad doing what dad's do - take life, make life, give life. I planted a tree with my son today - the existential one I spoke of last night. I hope I planted a metaphysical one today as well.

I really hope my son does whatever it is he wants to do with his life. I really hope i am a good example for him to learn from, seriously - if he learns from my bad or if he learns from my good - I hope he learns early who he wants to be. My parents tried their absolute d&mnedest to talk me out of what I do professionally. I do seriously work with trees and trees specifically. I make an above middle class salary per year for the US - and I do it by being an expert on trees. Sounds silly, sounds narrow, certainly unique, but its true. I wanted this for my professional career. I hope s5 finds something just as great for himself.

[Coly23]

Wow CT1118, just caught up on your thread. Your words are inspirational and so are your actions. Your little boy must be very proud of his Dad!

I am also a spring/summer DB-ear and although my GAL activities are yet to get off the ground I found that posters like you, SH, Gump, Cherry, Phoebe Altair (everyone on here in fact!) and most recently the MLC folk have helped me to get through each day with such encouragement and positiveness even though you are all battling with your own pain and confusion.

Here I see the unconditional kindness of people who know where you have been and what you are feeling. We bare our souls in desperation looking for answers but what we rightly get is someone not giving us the answer we are looking for but who talk us down from that ledge of desperation to try and find the answer ourselves.

I have learned a lot over the past few months and it has been a lesson in humility and patience. I am not detached however if detachment is giving my H space to live his life and for me to find some peace in myself then I think I am getting there...

[Cherry]

I agree with coly, I'm absolutely sure your S will be so proud of his dad. You are setting the absolute best example of being a great man, one he will be so proud to say "that's my dad". A fine role model of a man.

Some of the men here really and truly give me hope and prevent me from becoming a bitter man basher!

This is a great thread, I think once we begin to loose the fear, then we can begin to get stronger. I know SH played a key role here for me to get some strength and control together and with his homework.

[ForGump]

CT-- how are you?

You won an award in my book a long time ago....

[hawker]

I agree. I am a summer 2016 and you guys have helped me through a lot. I always feel better when I come here to read others sitch or get advice on my own. CT you are amazing!!

[maybs]

I also first got on here over the summer. and it does oddly calm me down sometimes. It really is helpful to have people outside of the situation be able to give you more rational advice.

You really give some food for thought here!

[CT1118]

CT-- how are you?

You won an award in my book a long time ago....

I agree. I am a summer 2016 and you guys have helped me through a lot. I always feel better when I come here to read others sitch or get advice on my own. CT you are amazing!!

Thank you all, quite seriously, thank you. I don't try to be, but it really means a whole lot to have support from my friends here. I don't feel amazing right now, I feel really exhausted...with almost everything. As in literally tired, not fed up.

I believe I am mostly good. My attitude is still quite positive. Between work, graduate school, being a father, my sitch etc - I am just worn out. I commented on SH_'s thread not that long ago about how my daily new, fresh, and exciting GAL's tasks had come to an end - mostly because Graduate school at night fills up every minute not at work or with son - and that this summer left me really tired emotionally. It was exciting and tragic at the same time.

I downloaded some divorce paperwork this week. Started filling it out. I know why I did it, but divorce is still not what I want. F -it. I am not sad. I am not happy. I still feel great about me. Just in a place where I am wondering if this has all gone as far as it will go and I am not sure I feel bad or scarred. I'm disappointed, you know?

Usually don't write like this. Guessing someone will pick up on it. Tired, not much sleep in past two days. Hungry, not much food either.

"When the time comes,
let us lay down in the forest
so birds in their bellies,
may carry our forgotten pieces
above the tree line and into the night."

[Wonka]

CT,

I downloaded some divorce paperwork this week. Started filling it out. I know why I did it, but divorce is still not what I want. F -it.

Why? Why are doing the paperwork if you don't want a D?

[lt0402]

Agree with Wonka CT. Is she pushing on you to do the paperwork?

I hear you on the tiredness of this. I'm at that point also. It's not being fed up and it's not giving up. It's almost like our bodies have become conditioned to this. Unsure if that's a good or bad thing.

With you being so busy w/ grad school and your S, how's the exercise going? Got to keep that up and it'll help you through this rut.

Keep being strong brother! Don't do the paperwork unless you want to.

[CT1118]

CT,

I downloaded some divorce paperwork this week. Started filling it out. I know why I did it, but divorce is still not what I want. F -it.

Why? Why are doing the paperwork if you don't want a D?

Good question - I should have pointed out that I stopped filling it out. the "*-it" part was a comment on me not feeling the energy to write about it right now, not a comment on the M. I can see where that would be confusing.

Why I printed out and began filling out was a moment of complete frustration at the situation. I know - I know. I know what I have learned, read, prepared for, worked towards, what I seek in the future, my goals....all this. Just hit a real point of frustration like I have not experienced in my journey so far.

Not angry, not sad, no tears, no apathy, no depression, not trying to make sense of her, or the sitch - in fact nothing that felt like what it used to be at all. Frustration is really the best word I can think of. Wondering if it arrived b/c of all the positive movements made combined with full on fatigue.

[ForGump]

CT--

First, who wrote the verse? It's beautiful.

I might be at a similar place as you. Although I can't say I'm frustrated. Fatigued. Or just seeing things for how they really are. Maybe there is wisdom in fighting a battle. Going against the tide. But maybe there is also wisdom in seeing things for what they are. And accepting it.

Also, at some point, your whole being -- not just the brain -- wants to feel peace and warmth.

[SH_]

Thank you all, quite seriously, thank you. I don't try to be, but it really means a whole lot to have support from my friends here. I don't feel amazing right now, I feel really exhausted...with almost everything. As in literally tired, not fed up.

CT my friend, my SuperHero brother...
I completely understand this feeling...
I have been caught in the same quicksand of late...
I find exhaustion the order of each day, in spite of efforts with exercise and healthy eating, although I might be able to sleep a bit more. Not that I am not sleeping fine, just that I am up at all hours reading and trying to find answers to questions...and not even sure what the questions are...

I believe I am mostly good. My attitude is still quite positive. Between work, graduate school, being a father, my sitch etc - I am just worn out. I commented on SH_'s thread not that long ago about how my daily new, fresh, and exciting GAL's tasks had come to an end - mostly because Graduate school at night fills up every minute not at work or with son - and that this summer left me really tired emotionally. It was exciting and tragic at the same time.

I also am at this same crossroads...
The GAL activities have tailed off as the pressing matters of surviving and progressing take up much time and create a routine that feels to burn the candle at both ends...and the remaining time is put into time with my daughters.
I am sensing this may be yet another leg in the journey that we are taking and that there is opportunity for growth and progress...

I downloaded some divorce paperwork this week. Started filling it out. I know why I did it, but divorce is still not what I want. F -it. I am not sad. I am not happy. I still feel great about me. Just in a place where I am wondering if this has all gone as far as it will go and I am not sure I feel bad or scarred. I'm disappointed, you know?

I get this...I have fought with the little angel and devil on my shoulders over this many a days...
She has stalled in pushing this fast paced D process...
And I am not sure if this is good, or if I should just jump in and end it...
Limbo as they call it is not a comfortable place...No pain, no peace, no sadness, no joy...just blah!...nothing.
Kind of like a vortex in time...a time that I will look back at as a hole in my life.

don't write like this. Guessing someone will pick up on it. Tired, not much sleep in past two days. Hungry, not much food either.

"When the time comes,
let us lay down in the forest
so birds in their bellies,
may carry our forgotten pieces
above the tree line and into the night."

You are human...you are on the right path...you are doing the right things...do take pause on occasion...growth takes place both physically and mentally when we take a moment too rest and catch our breath and stop pushing against the resistance.
A second wind will come up and then you will jump back into the fray...

"We’d never know what’s wrong without the pain. Sometimes, the hardest thing and the right thing are the same." -The Fray All at Once

[SH_]

Good question - I should have pointed out that I stopped filling it out. the "*-it" part was a comment on me not feeling the energy to write about it right now, not a comment on the M. I can see where that would be confusing.

Why I printed out and began filling out was a moment of complete frustration at the situation. I know - I know. I know what I have learned, read, prepared for, worked towards, what I seek in the future, my goals....all this. Just hit a real point of frustration like I have not experienced in my journey so far.

Not angry, not sad, no tears, no apathy, no depression, not trying to make sense of her, or the sitch - in fact nothing that felt like what it used to be at all. Frustration is really the best word I can think of. Wondering if it arrived b/c of all the positive movements made combined with full on fatigue.

I completely understand your thoughts and sentiments here...eerily identical thoughts for several weeks now...
I find your comment that it may be due to positive movement combined with fatigue, of particular interest to me...I have been trying to put my finger on a reason for this myself. You have given me something to think on.

CT, feel confident in simply taking a moment to rest, breathe and move your thoughts to nothingness...meditation... the short break can bring you a renewed strength and energy for the next leg of your journey.

I appreciate all that you have shared and supported for me...I am here to return the favor my DB brother.
Your are an excellent human being and I look up to you for what you have brought to this table for me and many others.
Share some of the same with yourself.
You deserve it.

[CT1118]

IT - no, she is not pushing the paper work; it was me on my own......................good guess, the exercise has fallen off. Not by choice, by fault of boundaries - and not by her, at work. Work has been Hll lately. Sounds weak, but it has been. I had very good about refusing to do things around my lunch hour so I could work out - fell off somewhere. I know where, one of the political candidates for POTUS visited a month ago and it was a major disrupt which coincided with some other BS- blah....I allowed the disrupt and have not stopped it.

FG - the verse is from a poem I published about 19 years ago, second thing I had ever had published. I wrote it about my youth leaving me. The above was the final stanza. My dad was in an MLC and had been gone a very long time, five years at least - he came home right before I moved away from D.C. to attend college and told me if he died, he wanted to be lain in the forest to rot. That he trusted me over my mother and brother to make that happen. My guess is b/c he knew I would actually be able to make that happen - little emotion this one. This coincided with me loosing a friend to crack cocaine, he did not die, but I still lost him; he was my brother. The above was my take on it at 20 yrs old.

Before me right now. The light is down the hall...a small hall of an apartment. The only other light is this laptop screen before me. The laptop is lighting sinew in my hands...tendons and bone. I can see my tattoo'ed arms, half sleeved each, bicep and vein on each side, the art does not seem important right now...not much weight on me these days - a result of eating only fiber and seconds converted to pushups. FG. my frustration is not for why things are - my frustration is for what my choices are.

I am finally at a place where I can choose to walk away - clean. To be done, to be rid of it, to know I did what I could do. I detached - I did it, I did it a while ago, and now, now....the options of life are upon me me, and what do I do with that? I don't want to be done, but I got there. What does one do with all this comfort as one's self? Hence my comment earlier "f-it" I feel so done, I want to sleep for days. I want to wake up and know what I want to say.

I got to what I asked for - what I asked for of me. I got to where I am ok being me. Comfortable being alone, comfortable letting her go, comfortable knowing a future in her absence. And here I am - in a place where I could ask her to stay and mean it or tell her to go away and mean it....and am not seeing a difference between the two. I am so gdmn tired man. I just want to sleep, sleep more than a few hours. Its been weeks, or less, or more.

Positive news today though. Red Cross volunteer work wants to to train me beyond their average blood truck bear. I am happy to do so, have to give back.

[SH_]

CT, my friend....
Take pause...
Take a breath...
Sit still...
Take a moment...
Take rest...

Fatigue can create a thief that runs through our heart and mind stealing that which we have worked so hard to amass...
You have built a fortune of knowledge, emotional intelligence, calm, peace with oneself, and direction.

Take rest to ensure that your protection is in place against this thief...
Energize your self before taking another step in your journey...
Rest is needed as part of the growth process...this holds true in building muscle for the physical body and the mental state.

“Every person needs to take one day away. A day in which one consciously separates the past from the future. Jobs, family, employers, and friends can exist one day without any one of us, and if our egos permit us to confess, they could exist eternally in our absence. Each person deserves a day away in which no problems are confronted, no solutions searched for. Each of us needs to withdraw from the cares which will not withdraw from us.” ~Maya Angelou

[ForGump]

Again: beautiful verse. Will keep it.

Also beautiful: your paragraphs about where you are, and how tired you are.

You have boiled life down into its existential bone. I wonder which way you will go. Or if you will go at all. No judgment here. I have no prescience about what works, or what is good.

One judgment, same as I've told JRuss: you have proven your core, at least to me. You are a good man. Ten times any man you might stop on the street.

[Cherry]

There are a lot of great men on here that really are preventing me from becoming the bitter scourned woman saying "all men are trash". I think it's just down to how I seem to pick partners.

CT, I'm sorry to hear that you are exhausted. I think there is a good lot of us on here now that are just tired of the behaviour, tired of the pain. SH always gives great advise about when the physical side is tired, it pulls the rest of us down. This is useful for us all so we can continue to march ahead and regain our sense of self.

Ps, for fear of sounding like your mama, please take time to eat! You can't run a car with no fuel.

[CT1118]

.....Well.....I logged off after that last post and went to bed. I slept for 8 hours, which is the longest stretch in a long time. When I got up, I took S5 to a b-day party at the zoo, spouse was there too. It was a good time. I am able to be around her now without feeling like a starving puppy or acting like a junkie wanting a fix. We do not usually do a b-day thing together, but this was for a kid who was in the premie ward with s5 for a month, so it was cool to see them both together and both strapping young lads. Spouse took s5, I came home after and did absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. A hurricane was coming in anyway. Again went to bed and slept 8 hours until alarm told me to go to work and check damage.

SH_ , not sure how, but I had missed your comments before making my last reply:

Not that I am not sleeping fine, just that I am up at all hours reading and trying to find answers to questions...and not even sure what the questions are...

This is so true. Its been many months now and I am still reading new stuff, and as you say, sometimes I don't even know what I am looking for. Would suggest it begs the question of when that part ends, but the Old School still reports here, I know they teach, but as one of my professor's profoundly put it "I teach so that I may learn". So perhaps this part goes on.

I am sensing this may be yet another leg in the journey that we are taking and that there is opportunity for growth and progress...

I think you are correct. I am sure these legs have names. Wonder what this one is? Actually, no, no I don't. Wait...

Limbo as they call it is not a comfortable place...No pain, no peace, no sadness, no joy...just blah!...nothing.
Kind of like a vortex in time...a time that I will look back at as a hole in my life.

Yeah, I had forgotten - there is a name, Limbo. It won't be a hole. Look how many new friends we have made here, how much we have grown, how much we have learned. Yes, born of sadness, but perhaps just change. Let's use 'chrysalis' instead of 'hole'.

Fatigue can create a thief that runs through our heart and mind stealing that which we have worked so hard to amass...
You have built a fortune of knowledge, emotional intelligence, calm, peace with oneself, and direction.

You're right. Thanks for reminding me of this.

The hurricane moved out entire about three hours ago. The city is amiss with flood debris, but power is coming back on in places.The sky has a beautiful low lying sunlight. My son is here watching some weird sht on youtube, but he likes it (other kids playing with toys, could be weirder - could be teletubbies). The winds have dropped significantly. It feels like some peace - finally not so hot that I can't leave the windows open. Almost like the storm moved as some kind of cathartic leviathan through me.

You have boiled life down into its existential bone. I wonder which way you will go. Or if you will go at all. No judgment here. I have no prescience about what works, or what is good.

One judgment, same as I've told JRuss: you have proven your core, at least to me. You are a good man. Ten times any man you might stop on the street.

ForGump, You may not know what works, but you know what is good. I wonder too, but you will know when it happens. And thank you for that, made me smile.

I spoke with a friend Friday night whom I have confided in since the beginning of all of this. He has not always understood my choices, but he understands when to keep his mouth shut. There is a whole lot of value in that during face to face conversations. He was facing some really horrible stuff himself and in his own M when I began on this journey. His R was more like the stuff MWD put in the DB book. Listening to my story I think helped him. He has gotten his W to begin counseling with him as a proactive measure. I hope they make it.

This is useful for us all so we can continue to march ahead and regain our sense of self.

This makes sense, and well, I guess my thread was not called "the Fight for Self" for nothing.

Ps, for fear of sounding like your mama, please take time to eat! You can't run a car with no fuel.

Nope, I need to hear it. I ate a big pile of Chinese take out last night. Not healthy, but the salty fried yummy hit the spot and matched well with a day of desiring no other achievements beyond putting some eggrolls into my face.

I close with mentioning that my son and I had a healthy dinner. Yesterday, when dropping off my son and spouse from the birthday, she gave me a long hug and a kiss on my cheek, then she told me she loved me. We were standing in some poring rain at this point, s5 was in backseat of her car, cue movie scene. I only said "drive safe" and left it at that, did not return the sentiment. The rain didn't stop for another 28 hours. Cut.

[ForGump]

she gave me a long hug and a kiss on my cheek, then she told me she loved me.

speechless/confused

[Surfer]

CT

Just catching up. Sorry it's been a while.

WTF - kiss, long hug?

Temp check?

Not had a hug for 1.5 years. I think I was allowed to give her one. It was probably 1.5 years prior we hugged last. Kiss? 4 Years. Don't get me wrong, I look like a frog so she's understandably worried about taking the prince test. Ha ha.

Might be worth thinking about that though. What made her do that....

Surfer.

[CT1118]

FG/Surfer -
Nothing makes sense in any of this - you both know that. Enough said:
“Freely we serve
Because we freely love, as in our will
To love or not; in this we stand or fall.”
― John Milton

As my renaissance man said above, this is all a choice, those of us who remain do so by free will. Is this what we want? Is this really by choice? I would not freely choose to know my W took all 4's w/ another guy, but I do, I know that happened. The horrible part of honesty is that I broke into her phone last February 2016 and read that - out of my own free choice...to know. Maybe you all did something similar, maybe not. I was a spy then, we all were at some point, I do believe, to get here.

So Surfer, your comment made me want to review my journal. According to it, I called her out for the first time in August for allowing her OM to meet our s4 (at the time s4). I restated boundaries, anger,etc. That same day was the first time in a while I got the "I love you" and a kiss. Since, again according to journal, there was nothing until Sept. 11 when I noted she "hugged me deeply while telling me she loved me. I told her 'I love you back, but it was simply a response and it was awkward'" again, according to journal.

Since then - 4 count of the 'I love you' and two counts of the kisses. Pulse check - totally open to that, step towards, I completely doubt that. More likely her significant confusion and desire to remain in control. What I think anyway. What a mess.

[ForGump]

CT-

I read your post, closed my laptop to go to sleep, but could not.

It's too much. You've gone too far. Sometimes a marriage or a person has had just too much damage done. Being strong is good but strength by itself isn't wisdom. Sometimes we have to know when to end a journey. Or recognize that what we thought was a journey is only keeping us in one place.

You can keep loving your W has a person and a friend. But you deserve happiness. You deserve a healthy partner. We all do.

I think you should file.

[Surfer]

In fairness guys. I keep thinking about makIng moves to file.....as W is just sitting back now.

Was thinking a separation agreement might cater for financial control and custody concerns?

Surfer.

[mulesqb]

Since then - 4 count of the 'I love you' and two counts of the kisses. Pulse check - totally open to that, step towards, I completely doubt that. More likely her significant confusion and desire to remain in control. What I think anyway. What a mess.

CT - One question: What is it that you truly want at this point?

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[CT1118]

CT - One question: What is it that you truly want at this point?

Strength and Honor.

Mules

I think you just summed up what I have been in for the past week. I was so clear on what I wanted of me when I began IC, GAL's, living in my own space. But I hit all those GAL goals (ex. hit target weight, talk to strangers, try a new sport) or they are being adjusted (ex. Go to IC and learn methods for controlling displays of anger was met, but now adjusted to go to IC and improve emotional intelligence). I was also really moving then, as in my mind and body.

I know more about what I don't want right Mules than what I do want. That's a big problem you have just helped me identify. Let m get back to you on that. I need to put some serious thought to this.

[mulesqb]

I know more about what I don't want right Mules than what I do want. That's a big problem you have just helped me identify. Let m get back to you on that. I need to put some serious thought to this.

I think this is a serious mistake everyone makes. Whether consciously or subconsciously, the journey becomes adversarial. "I will show my WW what he/she is missing". You make your changes to improve yourself and like you, meet a lot of your goals.

Now what?

For me, it was easy. I wanted full custody of my boys and become the best father I can be to them. My XW made the rest easy as well. She had a PA which was a non-negotiable deal breaker for me. I didn't have to get caught up on what I didn't want.

But after much thought I focused on my next R. What would that look like? I realized that there was a lot in my old M that wasn't what I thought it was. Compatibility, friendship, intimacy on an equal level. I then decided that my next R was going to be focused on someone who I love AND I like. I think for me that was the key. I loved my XW but not so sure I liked her a whole lot. And trust me, I get that the feeling was mutual. She probably realized it way before I did. I was way more equipped to be a parent than she was. She wanted independence. I liked to travel, she hated it. I crave intimacy with the person I love, she could do without. All things she faked to appease me during our courtship.

Take your time. Think about what you want. What you truly want. What does your ideal life as a parent with shared (?) custody look like? Maybe you need some casual relationships for a while.

You hit the big point, not me. We tend to focus more on what we don't want (out of anger?) then what we truly want. You did a lot hard work so far. I do a lot of basketball coaching I always ask my kids at halftime if we're winning, what have we accomplished so far?? The answer is half the job.

Keep going CT..go play a complete game.


Strength and Honor.


Mules

[CT1118]

Indeed Mules, and I am not ready to answer you just yet - thinking...

FG - I am not there yet, I do not want to file, I do know this. I hit a very unexpected low last Wednesday and lasted until last night. As Surfer implied, WW in a lull, I was feeling a need for anything, led to paperwork. Hanging in there.

[mulesqb]

Indeed Mules, and I am not ready to answer you just yet - thinking..

Absolutely take your time..this is huge

I am not there yet, I do not want to file, I do know this. I hit a very unexpected low last Wednesday and lasted until last night.

Your timetable. Your gameplan. You will know what you want when you want it. You may never want to file. That's your right, and your personal decision.

That's why Strength and Honor is important to me. As much as you post here, you can't post every intricate detail. You deal with some things personally. I needed strength to stay honorable in some very bizarre circumstances. I only considered filing when my personal non-negotiable boundary was crossed. There's no script. Stay true to yourself. You can handle it. Tough times don't last, CT will.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[CT1118]

mulesqb

You have had an incredible and supportive impact on me as of your recent appearance. I do believe you do not have to be here by anything other than choice at this point, so in this you have my respect. Know that one day I will either be here beside you, doing what you do for others here, or I will be here in your stead, doing what you have done for others. My hat is tipped sir.

So, what is it I really want? To begin with, perhaps to sum it all up, I want my head out of my own ass and to get back on track for myself. I was thinking today about your proposal. These thoughts led exponentially into other thoughts and teachings I have had here and from various conversations and teachings I have had along my Journey during this fight for self.

I accepted my actions last week of turning towards the D papers. I owned them. I understood that I was truthful in my reply to Wonka and all of you. I did hit a point of extreme fatigue brought about by many things current in my life. I did choose to aim for and shoot at the absolute largest and most obvious target in my life - my sitch - as being the number 1 thing I wanted removed. But, via your question, was this response and reaction being honest with myself in terms of meeting my goals? It was not. It was me seeking the easy and the escape.

What is true to myself - what I realized in these past few days - where SH_ inspired with example of his words - what I want is already what I am doing and what I have done. I want to be my own hero. By this, I am indeed the hero of my own story. See what happened today, in my pondering, I am in a new place as compared to before I detached a bit ago. I realized that in detachment, emotions are acceptable and natural. I allowed them to move through me and today they passed, partially with your help mulesqb and the direct/indirect help of so many others here and elsewhere.

Before detachment, emotions owned me. I was telling someone else this evening how how I was needy, dependent, and void of my usual self-confidence prior to detachment. Emotions conquered, ruled me, and consumed me. I was never sure if I would be ok, I never realized a possible future beyond the one I envisioned with my W; I still wanted to be in control. Recovery from emotion then did not seem possible. So I staged through as a matter of cycle (wish it could have been choice), and I hit the detach. But what I have now realized, I can still have ups and down. The difference is, I know I am good, i know emotions are not only acceptable, but natural. I am able to allow them in, accept them, and recover.

What I want, I want to continue improvement of the self. If achieving this improvement means I mistake, I stumble, I have to ask for help - that to me is healthy, normal, and natural. mulesqb, I know it is not only alright to aks for help (even when you may not know you are crying out for it), it may be one of the bravest things you can do. My 'self' cried for help, I was answered.

The simple question "what do you really want" led me back to some older threads I have and other comments posed, chiefly:

What I see, is that you very much have to feel in control of most things.

This statement was made in early September. It has meant a whole lot. This is my senior issue in my personal life and I am not alone. I have read the word control so many times in male LBS sitch's in this place that i should not even begin to guess at the amount. And while I read it over a month ago, it took me a bit to accept it. And while I accepted it for my own reality, dismissing the need for it takes time - thus I accept that it takes time, and I have just received a reminder.

I have traveled very far, but not far enough for me...

Your timetable. Your gameplan. You will know what you want when you want it. You may never want to file. That's your right, and your personal decision.

I will. I know this. I will forget this again at some point. I will need help again at some point. The distance between points is increasing. The day will come where those points are measured in enjoying the Journey as opposed to seeking the destination. I am just beginning to respect the Journey. I really want...

I want to appreciate the Journey entire. I want to welcome the Journey as an improvement of self and as an increase of life. I want my own heart, mind, and conscience to be the vehicle I ride on the Journey. I want the map I use to be the map which I make. I want to be the man I know is in me and always was. I want to be better because I am better - better for you, better for my son, better for others, better for my self, better because I...AM...BETTER. I want my actions to meet my words - they will, I will, and self will.

SH_, I am the hero of my own story. I am not super because I am different, nor are you. We are super only if we recognize the strength in us is the strength of all people, in all lives ever, once called upon. Super is not the absence of fear, it is the acknowledgement of fear and the actions we take despite it. The only thing super inside us is us. I can bleed in front of an audience now, you know you can too. All of you help me as I need, in the way I need, when I need. I have no cape, I have no costume, no secret identity - to the contrary, I am naked before you, and I am not embarrassed. This is not easy, but this is what makes it super.

FG, you have expressed a welcome eye for my personal prose here. SH_ you have an affinity for superheros. To you both I offer a writing I produced for the death-bed eulogy of a superhero I knew once. It applies here and perhaps to all who have ever suffered in anyway. I hope I honor her by sharing it twice. It was my cousin, she died a decades long impossibly slow death from MS, one where capacity was removed from her one deprecating day at a time - despite this, she never showed anything but honesty in her loss. She is my only memory which can have me weeping, not in her loss, but for the heroism she taught me. And so I told her this on the very last day of her life when she offered no indication of hearing me, much less knowing I was present...it helps tho believe she knew:

"It is only through the adversities in our lives that true courage be revealed. In the face of your challenges, you have been an inspiration. You are the bravest person I will ever know. I love you."

I was 30 years old when I told her that (there is value in keeping a good journal), she was 41. Through her Journey, I saw her fight like an animal first day in the cage, laugh like a Roman drunk with Hedonism, and fear like a child in the closet with it's monster. She never once showed a dishonest emotion or was untrue to the self before others, I would like to do the same. The value of her life is not defined by its distance - she is my superhero. You all a my heroes, I wish for us all to become super in our own ways, to ourselves, if not to others.

This response took days of honest reflection and form to achieve what I wanted, I did so for self, but anyway, thanks mulesqb for pulling on the teeth. Goodnight DB.

[Mach1]

What I see, is that you very much have to feel in control of most things.

This statement was made in early September. It has meant a whole lot. This is my senior issue in my personal life and I am not alone. I have read the word control so many times in male LBS sitch's in this place that i should not even begin to guess at the amount. And while I read it over a month ago, it took me a bit to accept it. And while I accepted it for my own reality, dismissing the need for it takes time - thus I accept that it takes time, and I have just received a reminder.

I have traveled very far, but not far enough for me...

So how are you addressing it ?

1-
2-
3-
?-


And also...

Mules....it is great to see you back here, and doing well...


Strength and Honor back at ya...

[mulesqb]

You have had an incredible and supportive impact on me as of your recent appearance. I do believe you do not have to be here by anything other than choice at this point, so in this you have my respect. Know that one day I will either be here beside you, doing what you do for others here, or I will be here in your stead, doing what you have done for others. My hat is tipped sir.

It's hard to explain. I'm 7 years removed and just felt incredibly happy in my situation at home and started thinking about this place. For a long time it represented sadness to me and brought back a lot of bad memories. Then I started thinking about how happy I am in my current R and how I got here. Simply put, there is no way I would be in such a happy, healthy R without the guidance I received here from so many. People who just stuck with me. Stuck with me no matter how stubborn I was. One of them became a very close friend who lived over a thousand miles away. We met once face to face when he and he wife (who reconciled through this site) visited my 3 sons and I on vacation. He had an incredible impact on me. Sadly he passed away 3 years ago from a heart attack. At one point during my journey we talked every day. I think about our talks all the time and how we helped each other through the most trying experiences of our lives. My kids loved him even though they only met him once.

Now to you. What an incredible post.

I did choose to aim for and shoot at the absolute largest and most obvious target in my life - my sitch - as being the number 1 thing I wanted removed. But, via your question, was this response and reaction being honest with myself in terms of meeting my goals? It was not. It was me seeking the easy and the escape.

I had a feeling this was the case. Just wanted to make sure. I honestly thought you would figure it out and you did. And by the way, it's ok. This journey can be incredibly exhausting on your emotions.

I realized that in detachment, emotions are acceptable and natural. I allowed them to move through me and today they passed.

It won't be the last time. But you are right on this.

Before detachment, emotions owned me. I was telling someone else this evening how how I was needy, dependent, and void of my usual self-confidence prior to detachment.

I used to question myself on this. How could I allow another person to give me such an emotional beat down?? But it was real. But when the self confidence comes back it's stronger and more mature than you could ever think possible. This new you is the person you want to go forward with. I think I may have mentioned that when it happened, it took all the awkwardness out of any dealings with my XW. In fact, to this day it hasn't changed and I can honestly say I feel that she knows she screwed up and wished she could have a mulligan.

Emotions conquered, ruled me, and consumed me. I was never sure if I would be ok, I never realized a possible future beyond the one I envisioned with my W; I still wanted to be in control. Recovery from emotion then did not seem possible. So I staged through as a matter of cycle (wish it could have been choice), and I hit the detach. But what I have now realized, I can still have ups and down. The difference is, I know I am good, i know emotions are not only acceptable, but natural. I am able to allow them in, accept them, and recover.

When I was in IC back in the day, my IC called this mourning your old R. It's recognizing it's gone and it's sad. But this passes the stronger that you become.

What I want, I want to continue improvement of the self. If achieving this improvement means I mistake, I stumble, I have to ask for help - that to me is healthy, normal, and natural. mulesqb, I know it is not only alright to aks for help (even when you may not know you are crying out for it), it may be one of the bravest things you can do. My 'self' cried for help, I was answered.

This is incredibly on point CT. That's why when I read your posts I know you are going to have an incredible next phase. Whether that includes a new R with your WW or somebody else, it doesn't matter. It will be amazing. I can vouch.

And while I read it over a month ago, it took me a bit to accept it. And while I accepted it for my own reality, dismissing the need for it takes time - thus I accept that it takes time, and I have just received a reminder.

Honestly, I really think you have this under...see what I did there!

I will. I know this. I will forget this again at some point. I will need help again at some point. The distance between points is increasing. The day will come where those points are measured in enjoying the Journey as opposed to seeking the destination. I am just beginning to respect the Journey. I really want...

It is so amazing that you said this. When I was going through this I had such a different perspective. Now looking back I realize this was an amazing point of my life where I was defining to myself exactly who I am. And the best part was that I did this for me, not anyone else. Again you are on point. The destination will come soon enough. Enjoy the the journey and all the bumps along the road that it brings.

I want the map I use to be the map which I make. I want to be the man I know is in me and always was. I want to be better because I am better - better for you, better for my son, better for others, better for my self, better because I...AM...BETTER. I want my actions to meet my words - they will, I will, and self will.

CT, If I can make a suggestion, print this statement out and keep it with you. I think it will have an incredible impact on you going forward. I did that with a post that someone had sent me and it was amazing how many times it enabled me to just reach for strength that I didn't know I had in me. I think you can take this paragraph and post it on every newcomers wall as the newcomer's mantra.

Super is not the absence of fear, it is the acknowledgement of fear and the actions we take despite it.

Perfect!

"It is only through the adversities in our lives that true courage be revealed. In the face of your challenges, you have been an inspiration. You are the bravest person I will ever know. I love you."

What an amazing moment in your life. I have no doubt your cousin heard you and was comforted by you.

The value of her life is not defined by its distance - she is my superhero.

Incredible respect here.

This response took days of honest reflection and form to achieve what I wanted, I did so for self, but anyway, thanks mulesqb for pulling on the teeth. Goodnight DB.

CT - I am awed by your mindset. You are going to take so much of this experience forward. I know this is emotionally and sometimes physically draining. But you are handling the defining moment of your adult life with courage, strength and honor. Keep doing what you are doing. Embrace the lows along with the highs. It gets better. And then it gets great. You have been given the opportunity to redefine who you are. See the upside of that. Some people coast through their adult life. It's easy. But that is not living. You are becoming CT 2.0...and then 3.0...you have learned so much about your self. I think you have won that fight.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[lt0402]

Awesome and inspirational from both of you. CT, you, as always have a great grasp on yourself and where you are in your journey.

Any chance we can get you to run for president?

Keep on down your path brother! Many good days lie ahead for you!

[CT1118]

[quote=MACH1]
What I see, is that you very much have to feel in control of most things.

So how are you addressing it ?

1-
2-
3-
?-

So, good question - action steps. First off, I do believe the beginning was identification of the problem. Recognition of a problem is not always easy, MACH1 was one of two essential people in this for me. I am not going to repeat here, people who wish to read the exchange, search my posts or MACH1's on the date above, you will find it. Long story short, problem ID - may not be obvious to you, may require help of non-biased other(s) as did I.

Actions thus far:
1. I had to accept this as a possibility, before I accepted it for real. Two steps there. Did both.
2. Seek understanding of why, where, when, who, what - requires a whole lot of observation on self. Dig deep introspection. Again, those wanting to know more - seek my posts for the above date. The tactical aspects of this, simple - I kept a journal. I kept a journal specific to this issue, this matter, this one word - control. Sorry, kept is past tense - keep.
3. Time, make it. I have none school/work/son. I felt I had no time to read the books recommended to me here (not MWD stuff, the extra stuff, recommended by posters). I found time in commute, workout, shopping - found podcasts of the books and listened to books while transitioning between spaces of my day.
4. Brought up with IC, status pending.
5. Realized - what are my alternatives to control? Could, I be more integrative, open, understanding - perhaps just listen, look, and learn....what a concept.
6. Mostly, above all, acceptance that I am going to make mistakes. I am going to seek and want control. Where I identify a need for it and squash that, it may pop up elsewhere. You cannot compress a liquid - it will find a way out. Learning how I seek, when I seek - these are just as important as why. H3ll this whole thread these past few days was a partial result of this search inside me for this particular tick.
7. Keep moving forward my friend - most champions are not without defeat in places. I just keep trying to know - through mutual understanding lies mutual benefit, through mutual benefit lies increase resources, and when there is increased resource, there is increased gain. I say this of my interactions with all others.


Speaking of - I had time for a single reply tonight. Son with me, school with me - Cherry, I did eat tonight - healthy at that . Looking at some sleep, need to seize my tired moment.

[CT1118]

I want the map I use to be the map which I make. I want to be the man I know is in me and always was. I want to be better because I am better - better for you, better for my son, better for others, better for my self, better because I...AM...BETTER. I want my actions to meet my words - they will, I will, and self will.

CT, If I can make a suggestion, print this statement out and keep it with you. I think it will have an incredible impact on you going forward. I did that with a post that someone had sent me and it was amazing how many times it enabled me to just reach for strength that I didn't know I had in me. I think you can take this paragraph and post it on every newcomers wall as the newcomer's mantra.

mulesqb - honestly, you said so many great things which work, provoked thought, provoked smile. I will. I intended to do so today until I had a few personnel issues at work which ate my day up. But this was great advice, I will do this.

Speaking of work, not sure I have mentioned it, don't recall, time spent on the DB forum - if you work the program, you will get better at work too (I mean, I was already really great at what I do, which is why more work gets piled on me, the good horse does not stay in the stall - but, that is work sometimes). Just thought I would mention it. I mean ideally, the program gets you better at most things in your life, so...pay attention new people.

Awesome and inspirational from both of you. CT, you, as always have a great grasp on yourself and where you are in your journey.

"...inspirational from both of you" ^^^^ thanks It0402, I appreciate you saying this. I thought this was an important point you made in case anyone just new to the forum comes across this stuff above. In order to receive, you have to give back effort and honesty.

Any chance we can get you to run for president?

I accept the people's nomination:

"...I came prepared, it’s a funny world we live in. Speaking of which, you know how I got these scars ?” - the Joker

Keep on down your path brother! Many good days lie ahead for you!

whoa! scary brother, i hope you are with me on a bunch of 'em! That read like farewell/goodbye

[lt0402]

Keep on down your path brother! Many good days lie ahead for you!

whoa! scary brother, i hope you are with me on a bunch of 'em! That read like farewell/goodbye

Won't be rid of me that easy! Finding myself weary and tired at the moment but learning new things about myself and all of us each day. Ive no doubt we all have better days ahead!

[CT1118]

Won't be rid of me that easy! Finding myself weary and tired at the moment but learning new things about myself and all of us each day. Ive no doubt we all have better days ahead!

Still in the fight It0402! The ^^^bold is what its all about! Obviously, I was just there too. Different sitch's, same self.

[mulesqb]

CT - As promised - this was posted to me on 7/29/09 by Bworl. It has stuck with me all this time. As mentioned it probably took to about 2011 or 2012 before I could actually implement it. Please read and use as necessary.




Here's a little passage from William Young's book The Shack.

If you haven't read it Mules, I can't recommend it highly enough. Deb read it first, passed it on to me and it was a one day read for me. I couldn't put it down.

Anyway, here are some of the things he had to say about forgiveness in his book...

Quote:
"Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......"
— William P. Young (The Shack)



Blessings,

Bill


I'm not telling anyone to stop what they're doing an go forgive their WW. I am saying that for you to grow as a person, this will eventually have to take place. For now, it's just food for thought.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[CT1118]

Mules,

Thank you for this. I went ahead and printed this one out. I am going to have to roll it around my grey matter for a bit. I really appreciate it.

[SH_]

CT - As promised - this was posted to me on 7/29/09 by Bworl. It has stuck with me all this time. As mentioned it probably took to about 2011 or 2012 before I could actually implement it. Please read and use as necessary.




Here's a little passage from William Young's book The Shack.

If you haven't read it Mules, I can't recommend it highly enough. Deb read it first, passed it on to me and it was a one day read for me. I couldn't put it down.

Anyway, here are some of the things he had to say about forgiveness in his book...

Quote:
"Forgiveness is not about forgetting. It is about letting go of another person's throat......Forgiveness does not create a relationship. Unless people speak the truth about what they have done and change their mind and behavior, a relationship of trust is not possible. When you forgive someone you certainly release them from judgment, but without true change, no real relationship can be established.........Forgiveness in no way requires that you trust the one you forgive. But should they finally confess and repent, you will discover a miracle in your own heart that allows you to reach out and begin to build between you a bridge of reconciliation.........Forgiveness does not excuse anything.........You may have to declare your forgiveness a hundred times the first day and the second day, but the third day will be less and each day after, until one day you will realize that you have forgiven completely. And then one day you will pray for his wholeness......"
— William P. Young (The Shack)



Blessings,

Bill


I'm not telling anyone to stop what they're doing an go forgive their WW. I am saying that for you to grow as a person, this will eventually have to take place. For now, it's just food for thought.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

Phenomenal post...
Thank you Mules for sharing...
It makes so much sense...
It will take so much personal effort...
It will make it all worth it...
This is how one controls the only thing that can one can control in this life...
Ones self...

I would like to copy this to my thread as this is a very powerful recipe that I am working to mix into my own life, soul, and being.

[CT1118]

Mules,

I have pondered that quote. A number of times over. Been quite busy so have not dropped into the forum much. I do truly want to forgive her. I have yet to receive any true apology on her part which involved her A. I have received about 4 or 5 which were apologies about the way she is, who she is, how she is hurting confused. Why I moved the main story of my sitch over to MLC thread a while back. I know I can forgive at somepoint, I have in a far as I can without her giving me the components above. She may never, and if not, I will leave it in the state it is today in terms of forgiveness, which is to say, my hands are not on her throat.

Really beautiful out today, I am going to dive in now.

[ForGump]

I had to think a lot about what forgiveness is. Looked up the definition in the dictionary, even. The dictionary definition has to do with anger, resentment, and a need for some type of repayment for the offense.

I don't think I feel any of those toward my W. Why. Not sure. Maybe because it seems inevitable to me -- it was not a completely free choice she made. She did it because of who she is, and she didn't make herself. I'm generally not an angry person, and when someone commits some offense, I tend to seek and see reasons. I don't tend to pin blame on a person.

I do like how it says forgiveness does not (re-)create a relationship. The old marriage is dead, and for a new one to exist, it requires two new people.

[CT1118]

The old marriage is dead, and for a new one to exist, it requires two new people.

Key word(s) - dean and new. I had made the old marriage is dead comment somewhere in this place before, but the addition of requiring two new people...I like that.

[mulesqb]

Mules,

I have pondered that quote. A number of times over. Been quite busy so have not dropped into the forum much. I do truly want to forgive her. I have yet to receive any true apology on her part which involved her A. I have received about 4 or 5 which were apologies about the way she is, who she is, how she is hurting confused. Why I moved the main story of my sitch over to MLC thread a while back. I know I can forgive at somepoint, I have in a far as I can without her giving me the components above. She may never, and if not, I will leave it in the state it is today in terms of forgiveness, which is to say, my hands are not on her throat.

Really beautiful out today, I am going to dive in now.

Don't get caught up in her apology. Honestly I got mine about 3 years ago. It was surreal. She called me out of nowhere started balling and apologized. I had moved on so long ago that I cut her off and told her that I firgave her a long time ago and had to go. Some people I jnow never got an apology. Forgiveness is about you as a person. I think it can actually be viewed as a milestone. Think about it. You can handle it.

Strength and Honor.

Mules

[SH_]

Mules,

I have pondered that quote. A number of times over. Been quite busy so have not dropped into the forum much. I do truly want to forgive her. I have yet to receive any true apology on her part which involved her A. I have received about 4 or 5 which were apologies about the way she is, who she is, how she is hurting confused. Why I moved the main story of my sitch over to MLC thread a while back. I know I can forgive at somepoint, I have in a far as I can without her giving me the components above. She may never, and if not, I will leave it in the state it is today in terms of forgiveness, which is to say, my hands are not on her throat.

Really beautiful out today, I am going to dive in now.

CT, a quote that I ran across that may apply for you,

“I never knew how strong I was until I had to forgive someone who wasn’t sorry, and accept an apology I never received.”

Also I have copied another post on forgiveness that may add to Mules post...it focuses on self forgiveness, which in turn may add more value to forgiving another...I have been seeking this path from the beginning, so it applies much to my journey.
If you can find benefit then I am honored to share with you my friend.

I hope you are doing well and that your classes are progressing for you.

[CT1118]

Thank you everyone - as I write, this is number 100. I will give Cadet a rest and simply say I am retiring this one and will do another one soon. I moved most of my sitch to MLC a while back, but I still find value in the newcomer boards, so....

Got mid-terms SH_ a take home mega one due tomorrow. But, I will be filling out my request forms to graduate in spring '17 tomorrow.
"You see this? This...is my BOOMSTICK!" - Ash