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Originally Posted By: ForGump
Yeah but were you as direct as I was?

And did she fly off the handle like my W did?

I think I completely screwed up my DB...


I'm finding it's extremely difficult to screw up DB with a single interaction w/ the W. Don't beat yourself up FG, I'd actually let her stew on it for a bit.

JR, sorry to hijack!


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Quote:
I think where I and several other LBS struggle is that what you're advocating in a lot of ways runs head on -- and even contradicts -- DB.


That's a pretty strong statement. What am I advocating contradicts DB? About the only thing I can think of at the moment is my VP on being BFF's with a wayward wife. The DB coaches, from what I've read, do not divide the wayward wives from the WAW. They place them in the same group, so to speak, and they advise the LBS to be the W's friend as a way of working toward reconciliation. That doesn't work with a wayward wife, b/c with a WW the issue is about respect. I have said so, many times. It's funny to me that some people can advocate exposing the WW to the entire world and nobody accuses them of contradicting DB. But let me have a different opinion on the subject of friendship.....and I am accused of running head on? crazy


Quote:
Some of us were told by WAW/WW we were poor listeners. What's the 180 for that? Teach ourselves to listen, then actually listen when she wants to talk about something, validate, etc. But then we hear that we're just being Mr. Nice Guy baking and serving all the cake she can eat. I personally was told I "didn't support" my W. I'm still not sure what the $%^& she was talking about, but moving away, remaining aloof -- all of that flies in the face of anything that might be termed a 180 in DB. I was also told I didn't do enough around the house and domestically -- but I'm Mr. Nice Guy if I vacuum or straighten or pick up groceries or decide to cook one night.


Wait a minute. First, you say that what I advocate contradicts DB, and then you follow with the that paragraph? Other than the first sentence, one could think you are implying that I was the person telling you those things. So, let me address what you've said.....not b/c I said those things, but b/c I think some newcomers do struggle when they are grasping a lot of information......and it stands to reason that it could cause some confusion.

First of all, consider the source of what you are being told. Next, realize that it's not always about appeasing your W, especially if she is wayward. By the time the H of a WW finds his way to the board, the real issue is his W's complete lack of respect for him. The way back for the MR is for him to be the man that commands respect (especially from his W and kids). For a wayward, a H trying to fix the M by applying 180's to all her complaints isn't usually successful. B/c the wayward W is angry and resents her H. Even if she doesn't openly disrespect him, she feels it. Over time, she begins to do small acts of rebellion, and finally she drops the bomb. Where the WAW or MLC may base their feelings on fear or survival, the wayward is anger. Some may contain it better than others.....but it's there in her. If you don't believe it, just try telling her no, or stop acting according to what she dictates and see what happens. Everything is about her!

Don't misunderstand what I am saying here. I am not telling you that you should not improve yourself (as some people tend to think that all 180's are about improving), but rather, I am telling you that it won't fix what's wrong with a wayward. At the end of the day, he has done everything trying to please her......but she still doesn't respect him. All she can tell him is that she doesn't have the "in love" feelings for him. However, once a WW begins to respect him; then the feelings will follow; his new improvements will be appreciated; and the MR can be successful.

Back to what you said about listening to your W, if she's complained for 20 years that you never listen to her.....then get a clue and achieve some listening skills, but do it to improve yourself.....not just trying to win her approval, hoping she won't leave you. Does that make sense? It would take hours for me to explain all of this in detail, so realize I am hitting highlights.

I doubt you need to 180 everything in your life. (I have actually seen one man who thought that was what he was being told). You may not even 180 every complaint from your W (especially is she's wayward). However, let's take the example you gave. If your W is talking to you......why would you not listen? The only times I remember advising H's not to listen and validate would be if the WW is speaking/acting disrespectfully to him (again, it is a matter of respect). I have suggested that some H's limit/cut their availability (depending on the individual stitch). I have seen some terrible female bullies. I have seen women totally manipulate the H through their moods.

I do get that you are sensitive to the reference of the nice guy. When I use that term, I am referring to the description of nice guy syndrome. If you have read the book on that subject, then you should be able to separate the actions of a man who has nice guy syndrome from the man who doesn't. At least, I think you could.....but if that is how you have always operated....maybe it is more difficult to see it in yourself. Sometimes it takes a lot of honest self evaluation to admit to our true motivation behind our actions. You should know if you are passive-aggressive and if you have allowed your W to emotionally control the MR. You should know if you have done everything to cushion her responsibilities at home and with the children, just in order for you to tolerate living with her. You should know when you mow the grass or vacuum the floor if it is b/c you don't want her in a bad mood or if it's b/c of personal pride and doing your share of the home chores. It's about the true reason behind your actions. I just think a lot of nice guys make excuses for why they really do what they do. If you are taking care of all the housework, yard work, cooking, & laundry, as well as taking care of the children's needs.....b/c she doesn't like doing it (or finds excuses for not doing it) and you know she's going to get all pi$$y about it if you say something (or if you just don't do the work and let it pile up)......and so you do it all (at least most of it), rather than deal with her temperament......then I suspect some nice guy syndrome. And, that is why I wonder if you have researched the subject.

So, it is true. You can't nice back a wayward wife. Does that mean you should act like a jerk? No, not a jerk.....just a man who won't accept disrespect from his WW.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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I needed to hear this. Thanks Sandi2.


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Thanks Sandi,

So much wisdom there, I also needed to hear

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JRuss.

Yes do hate the poison of the injectors.

You have to ignore them though chap. Nothing more to add spin that other than to say, they are plankton.

Surfer.


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Originally Posted By: ForGump
Yeah but were you as direct as I was?

And did she fly off the handle like my W did?

I think I completely screwed up my DB...


Oh, yeah. Probably much more so. Letters, tears, rational arguments, pleading . . . I did it all. I'd still be doing it had I not stumbled upon this place. And, truthfully, I spend lots of times still doing all of those things in my head. WHich keeps me from detaching.

Honestly, while there's a tendency to catastrophize each DB slip up, there's nothing we do, right now (positive or negative), that really matters all that much. They are where they are, and it's a million miles from us. It's cumulative if its anything, and probably a years-long effort of mostly succeeding at DB. And that's if we have the energy to fight that fight, which I'm coming to doubt for myself personally. I've already been fighting for 2+ years, made lots of positive changes, and I'm further away from my W, right now, than I was when I was still clueless.

I was really struck by your posts in your thread about the unilateral nature of what our Ws are doing. There are in their minds only two ways: stay married and suffer a martyr's life, or D and have hope of something better. But there's a third way. The way I'm pretty sure we promised we'd exhaust fully before blowing up our family. A collaborative effort aimed at resetting a relationship I've fully admitted needing resetting. I've had exactly 0.0 seconds of marriage counseling with this woman. I can't come to grips with the idea I'm going to lose half of my children's remaining childhood, and we won't ever have set foot in a single marriage counselor's office. I realize we're not in a place, right now, where MC would be anything other than a failure that my W would use as validation that there isn't a third way. But there was certainly a time, long before I had any clue she was so unhappy, where we could have done something. It's this kind of stuff that tears at my brain.


Me: 46
W: 44
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BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
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sandi2 -- please don't take what I wrote as a criticism of you or our posts or your advice. You have helped so many people. I was simply journaling on how hard I find all of this and the tensions I see between your at-times tough(er) love approach where a spouse is wayward and the 180-based, kinder, reestablishing friendship-based approach I feel is the DB way. Reestablishing respect and reestablishing friendship can overlap, I guess -- I'm just not sure I always see how.

I have no real idea if my wife is WAS or WW or some sort of outlandish, never before seen hybrid. Or whether she's just a wonderful woman going through a rough patch.

I have no real idea whether I have Mr. Nice Guy Syndrome, whether I'm a card-carrying codependent or whether I'm just a really confused, blind-sided guy trying to keep a family together.

So the confusion is deep and very real. It's not an act. I really am not sure about what is going on at any given moment, which leads to a lot of over analyzing on my part and a really scatter-shot approach to changing the dynamic in my R.

There is a lot in your post, especially at the bottom, that I want to dive into. The parts about why I do what I do. I think these will be really good for me to drill into, and I'm going to do that. Thanks so much for taking the time to stop by and offer your help!


Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
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Originally Posted By: JRuss
I was really struck by your posts in your thread about the unilateral nature of what our Ws are doing. There are in their minds only two ways: stay married and suffer a martyr's life, or D and have hope of something better. But there's a third way. The way I'm pretty sure we promised we'd exhaust fully before blowing up our family. A collaborative effort aimed at resetting a relationship I've fully admitted needing resetting. I've had exactly 0.0 seconds of marriage counseling with this woman. I can't come to grips with the idea I'm going to lose half of my children's remaining childhood, and we won't ever have set foot in a single marriage counselor's office. I realize we're not in a place, right now, where MC would be anything other than a failure that my W would use as validation that there isn't a third way. But there was certainly a time, long before I had any clue she was so unhappy, where we could have done something. It's this kind of stuff that tears at my brain.


Me as well JR. I've stepped through this in my head so many times and it's driven me crazy. My W went so far as to say that maybe if we'd done MC 5 years ago it would have made a difference, but now there's no chance. It blows my mind that she's unwilling to do anything to try to save this.

It goes back to them having the view that they've done all they could. But they don't realize that in reality they've done nothing over the years to try to proactively fix things. As we get more educated in this stuff, we have learned this is very fixable and how to fix it, but they are at a place where there's no way they'd listen to us. It's more than frustrating...

So lost in the fog that they can't see it now. At some point it sounds like the fog clears, but it seems highly variable. I'm like you, and wondering if I can grind through this into perpetuity. I guess no one said this would be fun. Hang in there JR!


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Originally Posted By: JRuss
Reestablishing respect and reestablishing friendship can overlap, I guess -- I'm just not sure I always see how.

JRuss - perhaps split those two. Work first on becoming a person that you, your W, and your children can respect. I like to feel that even in the darkest hours that my W still respected me - no clue if that was true or not. I'm positive that when she walked out our door that she did though. Friendship may have to wait until you are both ready for it.


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AndrewP -- that's the goal. I feel like I need to model kind, compassionate actions toward my W so the kids see what that looks like, but I think I overdo it and stray close to the doormat at times when I do. Need to figure out the right balance.


Me: 46
W: 44
Married: 17
Together 21
D13; S10
BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you)
Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage
Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
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