Lots to think about, lots to share, where to start?
I have ready SH's and Zephyr's posts above. I googled healthy detachment and read some stuff on the live strong site. So, here's where I still have some confusion:
I apparently was in a codependent relationship with xW. She had definite issues, I have thought of more examples as recently as last week. July 2014 she was texting about wanting sex with me (yes, the same woman who claimed I r@ped her out entire M), she suddenly turned the subject to her own insecurities, that I didn't want to go out and do things with her, maybe I was ashamed of being seen with her, maybe I have a GF on the side that I was afraid to run into, etc. I told her I thought I showed her how I felt, she replied "I guess you are right" and the subject was dropped. In hindsight, there are so many examples, so many red flags.
Was my role in the M codependent? That is a hard one to nail down. I choose to NOT do things with people, I am an introvert and choose this. I would rather be at home and work on a project then to be out with others. Always have been that way, I don't desire anything different. I get enough socializing between work, and a little interaction with family every couple weeks. But it was nice to go into the house after a project and have a W to talk to. I was strong, fairly independent, could function fine on my own. Even now, adapting the roles of a single father scared the crap out of me, but I have taken to it like a duck to water. I do laundry, cooking, cleaning, shopping, everything, without even thinking about it. Yes I do so because I have to, but in no way do I dread it.
The red flag for me, the way I was in the M, what makes me codependent, is the overwhelming desire to have someone in my life. But, is this a problem? Yep, if I get into an inappropriate R, and don't leave, it is a problem. This is part of the definition by Ross Rosenberg, the inability to leave. Did I fall into that trap? With xW? Yep. For a few years anyway, there were red flags all over when we were first M'd. But things improved with time. She still had issues, but I was still overall happy to be with her. I refused to let it pull me down. That is likely part of what xW resented about me, she wanted to bring me down, and couldn't. She saw me happy, she wasn't. Her circus, her monkeys. Why couldn't I let it go after she left? I still am having trouble letting it go, and why? Because of the children? Because she ripped my life apart and left me with barely anything? Because I loved having a complete family? Because I won't be able to share things the kids experience with their mother on the fly? Wow do I miss the family atmosphere!
Am I falling into this pattern with GF? I say yes and no. It is maybe a bit early to tell. I am doing what I do. I have been spending a lot of time mowing lawn. I am doing activities with the kids. I take care of the house mostly on my own. But I do find it easier when GF is around. And it still isn't the same as if xW was there, the mother of my children. I seriously miss that still, which causes some confusion for me. GF is incredible with my kids, they really enjoy being with her, that is such a huge relief, not having to choose if I need to get rid of GF because it isn't good for the kids to have her around. I have definitely heard stories about couples like that, and what a mess it makes for the kids. But still, GF will never be the mother of my kids.
Interesting, GF just yesterday was commenting on the fact that she has typically fallen into the caregiver role, to take care of people, and she said it is such a relief that she doesn't feel that way with me, I allow her to be herself more than ever. I guess this is what I imagine happens to people with codependent tendencies when they try to build something better.... I think we are on the right path?
Things with GF are holding steady. We spend a fair amount of time together, but still living our own separate lives when needed. I would like to get our lives combined the rest of the way, both to have more time with her, and for financial reasons. I think that day is coming, soon. We have a bunch of projects to tackle on her house to get it ready to sell, and have been talking about the details lately. GF's house isn't very nice, but she had some pretty grand plans for what she wanted the house to be for her to stay in it. Being she is going to sell it now, I have been trying to get the projects to be simpler, better for resale only.
Today is going to be an interesting day. I meet with the IC that xW and my kids go to, per xW's request. I am meeting with him alone today, in the future xW and I will meet together with this IC.
I am totally confused why she wants me to go, she says to figure out how to coparent together. But her actions are so ridiculous, problems that she needs to work through, it's not my problem. The OFP is still in place, which completely prevents any communication. Every time she requests some change to the schedule, I accept. I ask for something, and get "no way." The accusations of what I am supposedly saying to the kids continue, while I get an earful from the kids almost every visit about stupid things xW and xMIL are saying to the kids. I can't imagine what she thinks is going to happen in counseling. That she is going to get the IC to convince me I am the problem? That she will get to vent to me all the things I have done wrong? But they are all things she made up, they aren't real. What is interesting, she never would go to MC, because she thought I would manipulate the counselor into taking my side. Isn't that going to be a concern for her now too? Or she is so convinced of her own lies, and has her IC convinced of them, that she thinks there is no way that is going to happen? Well, if that is what she thinks, she is in for a rude awakening.
The legal battle isn't over yet either. I am making the first child support payment today, but an amount that is "temporary" while they fight for more money. 1.5k per month apparently isn't enough for her, on top of her income, she is asking for another 750 per month! This is from the woman who has been telling D10 (D9 just had a bday) xW is going to teach D10 that she doesn't "need" a man.
I will also end up bringing xW to court because she took assets from the house she shouldn't have. Great fun!
Going to xW's and the kids IC on Thursday was interesting. xW had not signed a release, so the IC couldn't share much with me.
I told him about xMIL badmouthing me to the kids, how the conversation with S11 went, to show I am not "pumping the children for information" like xW's atty said. I told him how S11 looked so emotionally drained to prove that I wasn't "taking it of context" like xW's atty also stated, and told him history of xMIL badmouthing xW's father in front of xW on a regular basis, even 25 years after their D, even 8 years after xW's father was dead.
I showed the IC the original OFP, which has xW's original allegations handwritten in it. I couldn't believe it when he said he had not seen it previously. He said "these are some pretty serious accusations." I was still crying after the previous subject, and told him "I know, and I could give examples all day long of how what she wrote was not the case."
I shared a long list of things that the kids had told with me and I documented over the past 9 months, complete with dates of each item. none of the examples alone is extreme, but the continuous crap she said to the kids, the selfishness she displayed, the badmouthing she did do, was enough to really build up for kids stuck in the middle.
I told him that I have said positive things to the kids, and what I hear back is so negative, the accusations of what I have supposedly said are too elaborate to have come from the kids themselves, and they are right on track with xW's lifelong insecurities... I even gave him a couple examples from when we were still together. I told him, therefore I believe she is making them up herself. He didn't comment, but more food for thought for him either way.
I was fairly frustrated when I left that he couldn't share much with me. But thinking about it afterward, after meeting my own IC later in the day, there are a couple conclusions I came up with. xW is so ashamed of her actions that she didn't even share her OFP accusations with her own IC? I did not leave a copy with him, but will make a copy before the next visit for him to keep.
He had asked what I hoped to get out of the counseling. I told him I wasn't sure, it was xW's idea. But that I don't see how we will ever get to the point of being able to coparent until her bitterness dies. At this point the only way I see to resolve that would be to rehash the past. He said we can only talk about what we both agree to talk about. I told him I doubt xW will agree to rehash anything, as she won't want to talk about the truth.
Another piece of the puzzle has been shared with this IC... I have a feeling xW won't like that and will stop seeing this IC completely.
Either way, I am very curious where this will lead. My guess is that the first session of us meeting together will never happen. And I highly doubt a second will happen. And we'll still be right where we are now.
In other news.... things with GF have changed a little for me. In a way it is good, my feelings of "needing" her around is tapering off, maybe I'm just getting used to the "new normal." She is spending a lot of time at my house, but comes and goes some to do things with her kids or her parents who are only a couple miles away. We spent most of the weekend together, did a trip to visit my sister's family, went shopping together even. We are going camping together with my kids this week.
I have found myself questioning if we are right together. Not pulling the plug, things are good, but I have my eyes open. I have no idea what these feelings are. I am guessing part of it is that I still miss the "family" life. That I still wonder what things would be like to be back with xW. But then I remind myself that trying to work it out with xW would be nearly impossible, I would never fully forgive her for everything she has done, and be able to trust her again. So, one of the downfalls of starting a new R too soon, trying to process both the new and old R at the same time.
hey OFP, sounds very frustrating with the IC session. Because i don't remember (or maybe you havent said), who's idea was it to see your Wife's IC? Do you have any expectation of getting any clarity from that?
I've seen a couple of times you have posted that you choose not to spend time with people, but are happy to spend time with someone in a romantic fashion...have i read into that correctly?
are you comfortable hanging out with a group of guys, talking, hanging out, screwing around, that sort of thing? What about just you and someone else? you have listed a bunch of times you hanging out with female friends, but not male ones. There was a while where i didn't go out with anyone but my brothers (and even that was limited).
there wasn't anything wrong with that, after all it was my choice to make...i am just saying now, that i go hang out with different groups (guys, couples, mixed) i am having more fun than i could have ever imagined possible. looking back seams almost absurd to me that i hadn't done this sooner.
"I would never fully forgive her for everything she has done, and be able to trust her again."
You could.
Yeah, I wonder that too.... if I really wanted to. But it would be hard, too hard. All the terrible things she said to others, in the original OFP, to the kids... all the money she cost us, the greed in the D, etc. etc. I visualize being with xW, even after being back together for years, and something would remind me of the costs.... Something we couldn't afford, something we used to have but had to get rid of, the time we spent apart, the fun things we could have done together but missed out on, missed out on being a family, the kids still being uneasy about us being together... I've read some of the stories, it sounds like too much work to try to repair that much damage, it would never be like it was, it would likely never be better than it was.
Originally Posted By: Zephyr
hey OFP, sounds very frustrating with the IC session. Because i don't remember (or maybe you haven't said), who's idea was it to see your Wife's IC? Do you have any expectation of getting any clarity from that?
It was very much xW's idea for us to do coparenting counseling, because of all the things she thought I was saying to the kids. I went to see her IC on my own to see if it seemed like he would be able to be neutral.
Originally Posted By: Zephyr
I've seen a couple of times you have posted that you choose not to spend time with people, but are happy to spend time with someone in a romantic fashion...have i read into that correctly?
are you comfortable hanging out with a group of guys, talking, hanging out, screwing around, that sort of thing? What about just you and someone else? you have listed a bunch of times you hanging out with female friends, but not male ones. There was a while where i didn't go out with anyone but my brothers (and even that was limited).
there wasn't anything wrong with that, after all it was my choice to make...i am just saying now, that i go hang out with different groups (guys, couples, mixed) i am having more fun than i could have ever imagined possible. looking back seams almost absurd to me that i hadn't done this sooner.
I hope you have a good week. will catch up soon.
I honestly don't care to spend that much time hanging out with anyone, except a GF. Otherwise I'd rather be alone, work on projects, etc. Hanging out with family once in a while is good, but not too often or for too long, or I feel an overwhelming desire to "go for a walk" or something else to get away. I talk to my brother or sister on the phone a fair amount, or FF#2. I rarely talk to my coworkers while at work, I keep to myself there too.
Part of the challenge with being with any guys, is a total lack of things in common. I don't watch TV, or have anything to do with sports, or hunting and fishing. Doesn't leave much for subjects to talk about.
My week is going fairly well. Picked up the kids Tuesday night, took Wednesday and Thursday off, and went camping with the kids and GF. It was really nice. Had to return them Thursday, get them back tonight and will head back to camping through Monday night.
Just a thought . Forgiving her is for you. Not her. Not necassarily to get back together. You may feel strength now holding to the anger and frustration of all she has caused in your perception. Resentment is a heavy weight to carry for a long time.
What happens if gf decides it is not going to work out? Will you just choose to stay alone because you prefer it? Is there a reason that time with gf is so important now?
Quote:
Part of the challenge with being with any guys, is a total lack of things in common. I don't watch TV, or have anything to do with sports, or hunting and fishing. Doesn't leave much for subjects to talk about
I don't watch much tv. Have not followed sports in years. I don't hunt. I don't fish. I like to talk about other stuff. I think you get my point. And the point Zeus is making.
Don't stop the healing process just because you are in another state of feeling comfortable.
Heed some of the advice being shared. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say your future self will benefit from it.
Just my 2c.
Me 46 Former W 46 D19 D7 BD Feb 2016 WAW moves out 4/16/16 D final 6/1/2017
It's time for me to start changin' the way I look at the world......and at myself. ~James Howlett aka Wolverine
I missed part of Zephyr's question, probably an important part.... What I hope to get from the coparent counseling.... Yes, I hope for some clarity, some answers, some idea of where xW's head is at, and mostly for a whole bunch of "why's" to be answered. In a way I know that is totally not xW's intent, but I think it is inevitable for it to go there. She is frustrated by things I have supposedly said to the kids, but I haven't said those things. As that info comes out, what will happen? She will believe me? She will become confused of her own thoughts? She will realize she was wrong? The counselor will tell her how screwed up her perception is? Or, things could stay bad, she will get defensive and say I am just denying things that I actually did. She will claim I am trying to manipulate the counselor? Trying to make her look like the problem? She will stop seeing a counselor completely? We've only been to a counselor together once, and it was nearly 20 years ago, she went one more time to that same counselor and I have no idea what was said, she never shared, and never went again. What happened then?
The next question, WHY is it my motive to have those answers come out? To prove to someone that I am not crazy, that I am not the problem? Prove to who? To her? To myself? To anyone who will listen? I feel it is an important step for me to prove that. Why, I don't fully understand.
I know this is somehow related to whatever is holding me back with GF. Like I need closure and haven't gotten it. I fear I never will. I fear xW will state over and over that she doesn't want to rehash the past. But it is xW's twisted reality causing her resentment, her bitterness, and there are a lot of examples of this that happened in the past. Can we talk about coparenting moving forward without that discussion happening? Can "I" move forward without that doscussion? It is so frustrating that this is just so clear what the issue is, and it hasn't been addressed. It hasn't been "fixed." I haven't fixed it. I feel the need to fix it.
Wow, this totally turned into "journaling" and went a different direction than I expected as I began typing. It helped me sort out some thoughts, but I fear it is showing that my questions aren't the ones I should be asking myself.
Child support, still not figured out, 3 1/2 months since the D paperwork was filed.
xW still hasn't set up the coparenting counseling. My part is done, I met with the IC, my atty wrote up the amendment to the OFP, all she has to do is sign it and return it, and have her IC call me. 3 weeks has passed and nothing. I am guessing she is backing out, it was possibly her atty suggesting it as a card to use against me, I called the bluff, they backed down, making them look bad instead. I don't do "revenge", but I do love to let the game play out and let "karma" take care of it.... only problem, karma takes sooo long!
The kids and I are doing great. Having GF around helps a little, when she is there, but things go just fine even without her.... verifying it's not a "need" after all. Definitely makes me feel good when I succeed.
My job is on the line, no fault of my own. I have another possibility lined up, but having the added stress isn't helpful. For some reason the occasional lack of job security has never brought me down, not sure why I am so strong about that issue, so weak about the xW leaving me issue!
So, things are changing every day with GF. We've talked a lot about M. She has told me many times that she is ready when I am. She originally talked about wanting an engagement ring, she started looking, and then decided she didn't care about the engagement ring, only the wedding ring. So, Saturday night, I proposed, she joyfully accepted. And it has gone down hill since. She decided she was embarrassed to tell people she was engaged, when she didn't have a ring!!! WTH? She then backpedaled further, stating that she wants me to get to know more of her friends and family, she wants more acceptance from them. I already have been spending time with her parents and a couple occasions with her brothers, and quite a bit of time with her D17 & D19. I spent a few hours working on her D17's car, with D17, teaching her things, having her help, etc. Her D17 has spent a fair amount of time at my house, has gotten pretty comfortable there. We have gotten fairly close. GF spends time with my kids and is great with them, the kids love spending time with her.
This morning it clicked... I was thinking about V's post back on page 2 of this thread, about dating too soon. I spent a lot of time making sure I wasn't falling into the trap, avoiding the patterns, etc... but I never looked at if GF is falling into that pattern. GF seemed so strong, so confident, happy to be on her own, with her own home, almost excited to be single. But I think there are underlying issues going on. She was D'd 6 years ago. It was less than a year after her D when she started dating the first person, it didn't last long, and she moved on to the next one. She was with the next one over 5 years, she says it started out good, but then realized he was a manipulator, spent the last 2 years of that R trying to get out. Apparently not trying very hard if it took 2 years! She finally had to get an order against him to get him to stop threatening her. She never introduced him to her parents, or friends, in 5 five years! She says over and over what a mistake it was being with him. So then why was she with him? I think I know why, unfortunately! Neediness?!
GF was barely officially broken up with him when we started talking. I thought that since she was trying to get out for 2 years, and that they didn't spend much time together, that her emotional attachment was gone, and she was OK to start a new R. Maybe not?!
There have been a lot of mixed messages from GF in the 3 months we have been dating. My concern was that she was saying what I wanted to hear, falling into a pattern of what she would do in an abusive relationship, so I asked questions often to make sure she felt safe sharing with me. We always talked through things, and our R improved because of it.
But today I think GF has a lack of self trust, that is why she is looking for so much acceptance from others. She has said that after her last R, which was such a bad choice, she knew it was wrong because she never wanted him to meet her family, and that is why she now doesn't trust herself. Well, her lack of self trust has now made it impossible for me to trust her, as her answers to pointed questions keep changing.
I went back through V's list, thinking about if GF fits any of them... and she fits pretty much every single one!
Now what? Wait to see if she comes out of it on her own? How will I know? Keep dating her? Slow things down? Stay friends? Walk away completely? Run as fast as I can?
I don't know anything about dating and remarrying after a divorce, but from what you've said, I think it'd be a good idea to give the relationship with your GF about a year of so before tying the knot. Regardless of the cause of your GF's cold feet, if everything is good between the two of you, then waiting shouldn't hurt. Get to know her friends and family, have some fun and revisit the proposal later.
Again, I don't know anything, so get other viewpoints; certainly don't act on my advice.
