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JujuB Offline OP
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Today, I had a great day with my son. I gave him my 110%. I completely focused on him and his behavior was so much better. He is hurting and doesn't understand and how can he not be affected by my feelings these past few years...poor kid.

I recognize that I am continuing some bad cycles...zues pointed it out and yes, I am totally catastrophising. I am focusing on what husband is doing and has done and staying really mad.

Zues, it is interesting that you have identified my husband's actions as a power struggle. When I was talking to my DB coach a long time ago, she had mentioned that as well...especially regarding the child support. i have given up on fighting him and trying to convince him of anything back in April. I would be fine if I didn't have to bother with him at all. I no longer want him as a partner. The less communication, the better for me. I only talk to him when I absolutely have to.

But at the same time, I am struggling with the perceived injustice of it all. My son told me how he brought him and grandmother to a cheese shop where daddy's friend with purple hair brought them food... Now my husband never went to artesian cheese shops to eat. And it really bothers me that he is bringing son around to girls to probably show off how cute my son is. Perhaps he thinks it makes him look like a good father? And then I remember how he criticized me for not being ambitious enough???? That ambition would make me more attractive!!! I went to school for years to do what i do and he's dating a cheese shop girl?? Not that there anything wrong with that... But how dare he insult me that way when I was raising our son in addition to working? I just think he is trash and I am angry and I have been angry and sometimes it's really hard for me to let it go.

I am mad that people are capable of this. I know I am catastrophizing but I am really angry that there's a good chance next guy will do something like this. How does one know?

Mustard seed, you keep seeing red flags. But those are so hard. I think about how my dad grew up with a bipolar mom and abusive dad with parents that fought all the time, yet he was a loyal and devoted husband. If someone told me that story I would see that as a red flag. My husband did not even know about his families dysfunction so I didn't see the red flags. And I am so thrown off by that.

What are the red flags?


M: 42
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Twins age 5
WAH in summer
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J, being angry for what he has done and getting angry for what hasn't happened are two different things.

You have every right to be angry for what has been done.

As for 'red flags', and 'how do you know if the next person will do something like this'...to me I don't know that the next person WON'T do something like this. This might be a bit pessimistic, but prior to my pessimism I was idealistic and naive. I had no idea how marriage worked, or as is usually the case, didn't. Having been on these boards for a couple of years I see the fall out, I see the negativity of both the WAS and the LBS of their exes, I see the infidelity rates, I hear people continue to proudly glorify their individual happiness and swear off the 'abuse' of being in a marriage.

So personally I already know that if I get into a relationship I am my partner's future ex, that it is just a matter of time before I am the abusive a-hole that is forcing her to lock her heart in a box, withdraw, walk on eggshells, be the anchor for her kite, diminish her and keep her from soaring and being the person she wants to be. And I know that I will be cast away and she will celebrate her freedom and prove she made the right decision by how happy and free she feels when she burns apart our life.

If I ever post an online dating profile I might just lead with that. Tell them I'm an abusive ahole that will diminish them and make them walk on eggshells, I have personality disorders and family of origin issues, and addictions, and will emotionally abuse her. Because that's probably what they're going to think of me at some point. If they are willing to sign up for that, maybe I'll be able to exceed their expectations. But if I have to court them and pretend that I can be their prince charming, well, it's just a matter of when the bomb blows.

When I see DBers talking about their great new partners I cringe. There are no great partners. They are all horrible, we just don't know how yet. It's just a matter of whether these horrible partners can stick it out long enough to have moments of surprising happiness in the middle. Dating/courting is like a hormone induced optical illusion designed to procreate our species, I get that new partners make us feel good and we can fill in the gaps of our ignorance with fantasy and hope, but we who have been through this should know better than to take that perception too seriously.

This is all tongue in cheek and I hope no one takes me too seriously. The bigger point is that while I feel this way now, this to me is just proof that I have zero business talking to other females right now. So don't sweat the red flags, just shut the dating door and work through your anger. If in a few years you wake up and feel optimistic about the world around you and the men in it, then hey, you'll be in a good place to meet someone that is less horrible than the rest. How romantic... wink


Me:38 XW:38
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JujuB Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Zues126
. There are no great partners. They are all horrible, we just don't know how yet. It's just a matter of whether these horrible partners can stick it out long enough to have moments of surprising happiness in the middle. Dating/courting is like a hormone induced optical illusion designed to procreate our species, I get that new partners make us feel good and we can fill in the gaps of our ignorance with fantasy and hope, but we who have been through this should know better than to take that perception too seriously


Hahaha! I love this. I agree. ( Can I use it in my upcoming maid of honor speech this weekend? ) I'll certainly toast to one day meeting someone less horrible then the rest.



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Zues, I get that you are partly/mostly joking, but I have a bit of a reaction to your notion that all women are going to label their partners abusive if they don't get along. It can be seem as mocking by those who have actually been abused and walked on eggshells. I know you don't approve of abuse but I've also read posts whet it sounds like you almost dismiss the idea that it happens very often.

I have never been with an emotionally abusive or manipulative man until I met H (one BF with emotional problems hit me once), and I still hesitate to call him that, but I have to wonder when I reacted with getting hot and cold and my heart would be racing when he suddenly started yelling in the next room, or when I startled and cringed when he slammed his fist in the table, or when he would come quickly close up to me in anger with his shoulders squared, apparently trying to intimidate me.

Or when he would rant and yell and curse at me for a perceived neglect for 20-30 minutes. Or have a complete fit over $25 that he wasn't even paying (he makes 6 figures). Or just use anger to get what he wanted (including sex).

Do you call behavior like that abusive?


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15
Separated 4/16
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Divorced 6/15/17
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There could hardly be a more heated debate than what constitutes abuse. It's an easy case to make that there needs to be a war against abuse, it's never ok, it needs to be stopped. All of which is completely true, but doesn't address the question of what abuse is.

I am not qualified to define where abuse becomes excessive and a spouse should file D to protect themselves. There is definitely a time and place. But I also believe it is possible that defining abuse more and more loosely can hurt the individuals these movements were designed to help.

Suppose that our society defined abuse as any relationship in which either spouse ever raised their voice or lost their temper to the point their spouse felt uneasy and uncomfortable. Wouldn't that apply to 100% of couples at one time or another? And if our message was 'Don't allow yourself to be abused, abuse is bad, you must fight it by not enabling it, be strong enough to stand up', wouldn't that then imply that all marriages should end?

Clearly there are abusive marriages and marriages that need to be aborted for survival reasons. And on the other end of the spectrum there are normal marriages, that have some conflict, some adversity, but that fall within the range of 'normal'. The problem is that as we try to educate our society and increase the awareness and priority on preventing abuse, it has the additional effect of making the abuse detectors more and more sensitive and include more and more of the behavior that historically has been accepted as normal.

I believe this is contributing to a rise in divorce. And even then people can defend that, saying "better to be single for ever than to be abused, humanity needs to evolve before it's worthy of partnering".

Am I suggesting that we send the message to 'suck it up, stick it out, make it work for the kids even if it takes your life?' NO NO NO. No.

But the message of "you shouldn't EVER feel scared, controlled, hurt, or make sacrifices in your life for your partner, because that is abuse, and you are a free spirit that should soar", well, that's not how marriage works either, and I'm not sure it's helpful.

Watching this all play out makes it feel like a dangerous pool to go swimming in. Speaking specifically about me I can assure you that XW has me labelled as emotionally abusive, controlling, diminishing, hurtful, manipulative, and that she had to leave because she was walking on eggshells, had no self worth left, and was dying inside. But in my opinion I am not abusive. I didn't hit her. I didn't call her names. I didn't cut her off from friends. I didn't control the finances. I loved her with all my heart, wanted nothing more than to make her the happiest woman in the world, and that thought drove me every day from sun up to sun down. FOR SURE if you followed me around with a camera over my ten year marriage my top 5-10 worst moments would look down right horrible, and if that represented my daily interactions then it would paint a different picture...but in my assessment I am a typical man trying to navigate through life and marriage and struggling with my humanity the best I can.

But when it comes to marriage it doesn't really matter what I think, it matters what my partner thinks, and to your point I am somewhat serious when I say that I don't feel like partnering because I don't want to be labelled/judged/condemned of such an accusation and then cast aside. No thanks. I see how this works, I don't want to play. So just as some don't want to remarry because they don't need the abuse, I don't want to remarry because I don't need to be accused of the abuse. Of course this can change, and there are many people that share these beliefs that I would feel safe with, that could also feel safe with me. So we shall see.

I don't have answers. I guess the pendulum will swing, there will always be abuse on one side, there will always be divorce on the other, and our society will fumble around trying to find the right outlooks and values to minimize the pain and provide the structure for some positives in the middle of it all. I just hope to create awareness of the costs of defining abuse too liberally, not so we accept it in any way, but so we can give ourselves the best chance of finding that balance point and getting along with each other the best we can.


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JujuB Offline OP
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Hi painter

My husband said that I was emotionally and verbally abusive. He was having pvcs, and a fibs. He said that he wanted to die he was so miserable.

In my mind, I was trying to communicate to let him know I wanted him to spend more time with son and I, I wanted him to wake up earlier, and I was frusturated over his chronic lateness.

(People that meet me in real life tend to say I'm pretty calm. At work I'm given the pts. That others have difficulty with, and my best friend of over 20 years laughs because she has only seen me yell once...and that was at someone who was driving really recklessly)

The only thing I can think of is that with husband, my emotions were too involved and when I thought I was communicating something he was taking it very personally.

Anyway, I think that people do unfairly label abuse. I think they don't understand that marriage requires work and patience and forgiveness and requires looking and appreciating the stuff that is important. I think it also takes a person that is capable of living a life that is not always comfortable.

A really stupid immature analogy..but I'm gonna post anyway. My husband could never handle being without air conditioning. Even in weather that wasn't stifling. When he lived with my parents it drove them crazy obviously because of the price, but also because it's summer. Summers are hot and you deal unless it's in the 90s with really High humidity levels.

Anyway. I just feel like my husband couldn't deal with a lot.

That being said, I have been reading your posts for a while, And I think your husband was very abusive. The serial cheating alone is abusive in my mind not to mention the other stuff. It is completely different.


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For me, being called abusive and then later having my words distorted to make it look like I was that crazy mom trying to keep poor hubby away from son was REALLY traumatizing. It made me really question myself. It made it difficult for me to make decisions. Having the person I trusted and committed myself to villify me the way he did was probably the worst part. I feel really damaged because if it. It's like I'm not sure how to be anymore.


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Zues,

You said "scared, controlled, hurt, or make sacrifices".

Those, IMO, fall into different categories. Scared would mean you are abused. You should never accept feeling scared of your partner, especially if it happens more than once. If your partner scares you, he or she needs to work on their emotional regulation.

Controlled can be abusive but also a feeling that a non-committed partner can blame to have an A (like my WH did).

Being hurt or making sacrifices happen in every relationship. If you feel hurt a lot, I would say it's time to see a MC. Some people may take things too personally, others may express themselves in a hurtful manner without realizing it. If the hurt is inflicted intentionally, it becomes abuse.

There's also the issue of combination of partners. If both come from a home where loud yelling is the way to handle conflict, they'll probably be fine with it. If one comes from that kind of home and the other comes from a FOO where calm conversation or even sweeping things under the rug was the norm, it's going to feel overwhelming or even abusive for the more quiet partner.

But I don't think you should judge all relationships based on your experience. I personally don't know a single woman who has left her H due to abuse.


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15
Separated 4/16
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Divorced 6/15/17
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Juju, did your H ever have a thorough physical? The heart issues and heat sensitivity, along with the emotional sensitivity and sleep issues, could indicate a health problem, for instance hyperthyroidism, which causes both those physical and emotional symptoms.


M 16 yrs, WH62, P54
3 adult blended kids
EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
Piecing 2015, BD3 12/15
Separated 4/16
WH moved OW in 5/16
Divorced 6/15/17
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,866
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JujuB Offline OP
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Hmm. Interesting painter. He used to sleep till 2 in the afternoon as well. And he did have weight issues, although he wasn't the healthiest of eaters either.

I can no longer make a suggestion about Dr's anyway. He never listened when I did and we were together.


M: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
WAH in summer
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