Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 3)

[MrBond]

"Is there a tactic here I should be using?"

So you're trying to figure out what way you should be manipulating her?

[JRuss]

MrBond -- I'm trying to figure out what I can best do in the face of my W going to a shrink in town who has a reputation of helping women navigate the difficulties of divorce. Everything I've done to date -- most of it DB approved, albeit with setbacks -- has gotten me exactly here. I get that DBing goes on as long as I can keep making myself fight this fight, I get that I need to try to continue to be "The Lighthouse", but I'm wondering if there's anything else, like something [b]specific[b], I could do. My W has essentially hired a very expensive Validator who makes her money "supporting" women as the divorce their husbands. This is a big threat to me and my children. If you have anything helpful to add, please do, and I thank you in advance.

[JRuss]

Sorry -- I hope that last sentence didn't come across as rude.

[AndrewP]

JRuss - it probably goes completely against everything in your heart but what if you "gave in"? She's had a pretty easy ride on your back for a while.

If she wants a D then there realistically is no reason why she can't move out this afternoon. You've got a good handle on the kids. What you might not have though is a handle on your rights. It worked for me and it sounds like it worked for some other people here but make sure you know your rights otherwise she and that fancy new IC will steam-roll right over you. In my case my W had her appt with a cheap L and after almost a month I've heard nothing.

Now you and I both know that going to the level of putting her stuff on the lawn isn't in the cards for you. One of the things that many of us struggle with is that we really can't "control" our spouse no matter how much we want to. They are adults with rights themselves and they can just tell us to go to h@ll if they don't like what we say. So - you've got a run-away nanny goat (sorry - goat theme today) who is headed for the berry patch - what would you do in that case? Troll? Buckshot? Move the berries onto a flatbed truck and drive away?

[JRuss]

She could move out, and almost did at the end of June. I'd be better off on a strictly personal/healing level, right now, if she had, but I'm still stuck on not wanting to do anything my children would construe as Dad kicking Mom out, or even doing anything to facilitate it, frankly. She's going to do what she's going to do, and the best I feel like I can hope for is that my kids one day understand I stood for the marriage and the four of us.

My desire and urge is to fight; to do something affirmatively to reverse the momentum of how the R is going (which seems against me at the moment). That's the hardest thing for me: trusting that DBing maximizes (but doesn't guarantee) the chances of some sort of turnaround. A lot of it seems so passive and not action-oriented, although I understand that these are major changes I'm making for me. I find it quite hard to know that the marriage clock keeps ticking, she's out doing things to make D happen, and I'm not doing much except staying the course, which got me exactly here, where I don't want to be.

[ForGump]

JRuss, reading your posts always makes me think, for the obvious reason that we struggle w/ many similar issues.

(a) Being poor listeners -- I'm very guilty of this. My mind has a tendency to multi-task, which is to say it flashes back & forth over to other things on my mind as my W talks. I have made a concerted effort to look straight into her eyes when she talks, and pay 100% attention, and validate.

(b) Doing enough around the house -- you mention "decide to cook one night." One night is not enough! I don't know how much you do around the house, but I suggest you completely geek out on this, and do exactly 50%, no more, no less. Cook 3-4 nights a week. Not in a subservient, motherly way, but as someone taking charge. Just declare to your W, "I'm going to cook coq-au-vin tonight." Do 1/2 of the house cleaning. Do 1/2 of the laundry. Etc. Once you start doing 1/2, don't be afraid to leave the other 1/2 to your W.

(c) Sex -- dude you are ***so*** fricken lucky in that department. At least from my myopic point of view. I often find myself wishing, "just one more time...." Anyhow, I think this is where "don't believe 100% of what she says, and 50% of what she does." That is, man, if she's DOING it with you, there is *something* there. No person is such a robot that she'd do it repeatedly w/o some subconscious, animal connection there. This by itself tells me you have a chance. It might be one in ten thousand, but it's a chance. Your situation is not D.O.A. Keep the paddles handy and greased up.

(d) The IC echo chamber -- before you lose hope, maybe you ought to get a bit more info on this IC. Look at her website, if any. Ask your IC about what reputation she has. But also keep in mind that if she's an echo chamber ... the primary source of ideas will be your W. So if your W still has any positive feelings about you, then her IC will echo that too. Also, if your W really does have some issues to work through, and if that IC is worth the piece of paper her license is printed on, she may help your W work through some conflicting issues in her head. You write that this IC has a "track record". Is that a datapoint of 1?

(e) Sandi2's point of "solid plan of action" -- I think this is very appropriate for your case, precisely because it's SO DAMN HARD to detach & GAL when your in-house. I think you need to write down a list of exactly what you're going to do, and what you're not going to do in/around the house on a regular basis. And I don't mean chores necessarily. I would include how you would communicate w/ your W, how you would express affection (if any, at least for the sake of the kids), etc. My M.O. has been to be a warm, friendly housemate, who, when engaged or asked, is very warm and kind, but generally does not behave like he's trying to coordinate his goals and interests w/ hers. Kind of harks me back to grad school days living w/ other grad students.

I get the sense though, JRuss, that, understandably, all your DB-ing still is anchored to the hope of getting your W to wake up. I think true/best DB-ing is anchored to yourself, to moving on w/o your W. It's a damn paradox.

Just thinking aloud here -- and as always, what I wrote above is really me talking to myself. I am sorry to hear about the mini-bomb drop (the echo chamber IC). I might've talked a big game here, but I live in fear of mini-bomb drops every day, and I take a big breath before I open my email every time, telling myself to strap on a pair....

[JRuss]

JRuss, reading your posts always makes me think, for the obvious reason that we struggle w/ many similar issues.

(a) Being poor listeners -- I'm very guilty of this. My mind has a tendency to multi-task, which is to say it flashes back & forth over to other things on my mind as my W talks. I have made a concerted effort to look straight into her eyes when she talks, and pay 100% attention, and validate.

THis has probably been what I've been working on the longest -- 2+ years, long, long before I knew anything about DB. With the help of a lot of IC, I taught myself to meditate, which really helped me focus and be "in the moment", which is what you really where you need to be if you're going to listen worth a crap. I always defaulted into trying to "fix" whatever problem she was expressing, because that felt like what you're supposed to do for loved ones who are struggling, but I learned that this made her feel minimized. I'm a good listener now. I don't know that she's noticed. I'm not going back to my old way regardless of how this shakes out. I came (late) to realize it is a gift people are giving you by telling you about something that matters to them. I'm already trying to teach my son and love the fact that he's 3.5 decades ahead of me on the learning curve.

(b) Doing enough around the house -- you mention "decide to cook one night." One night is not enough! I don't know how much you do around the house, but I suggest you completely geek out on this, and do exactly 50%, no more, no less. Cook 3-4 nights a week. Not in a subservient, motherly way, but as someone taking charge. Just declare to your W, "I'm going to cook coq-au-vin tonight." Do 1/2 of the house cleaning. Do 1/2 of the laundry. Etc. Once you start doing 1/2, don't be afraid to leave the other 1/2 to your W.

This one is tougher. She loves to cook, even during the week. We've always had a loose arrangement that the one who cooks doesn't have to clean, and she hates cleaning, so I gravitate towards that. She's also a better cook than I am (I'm getting better) and, especially, can cook faster than I can, which matters given kids' schedules and the like during the week. I've tried to do the cooking and the cleanup at times, but she seems to see through this (since it upsets the ancient arrangement) as me trying to be too sweet.

(c) Sex -- dude you are ***so*** fricken lucky in that department. At least from my myopic point of view. I often find myself wishing, "just one more time...." Anyhow, I think this is where "don't believe 100% of what she says, and 50% of what she does." That is, man, if she's DOING it with you, there is *something* there. No person is such a robot that she'd do it repeatedly w/o some subconscious, animal connection there. This by itself tells me you have a chance. It might be one in ten thousand, but it's a chance. Your situation is not D.O.A. Keep the paddles handy and greased up.

I know I'm lucky. I feel a lot of guilt even complaining given what so many here are going through. I'm there when it happens, of course, and I know she gets across the finish line every time. Maybe she's really good at compartmentalizing (or maybe thinking of someone else during? Ooof), but I'd never be able to have sex with someone I was truly not attracted to. Men are biologically and anatomically different, of course, and men need to start in the mood for things to go anywhere, but you know what I mean? I'm bracing myself for new IC to tell her to cut this out, that it gives me "false hope", etc.

(d) The IC echo chamber -- before you lose hope, maybe you ought to get a bit more info on this IC. Look at her website, if any. Ask your IC about what reputation she has. But also keep in mind that if she's an echo chamber ... the primary source of ideas will be your W. So if your W still has any positive feelings about you, then her IC will echo that too. Also, if your W really does have some issues to work through, and if that IC is worth the piece of paper her license is printed on, she may help your W work through some conflicting issues in her head. You write that this IC has a "track record". Is that a datapoint of 1?

It would be great if this IC saw through things a bit, or even just played Devil's Advocate a bit before launching into "here's how we're going to get you to Happily Divorced Land". I've seen her website, and she does have dog whistle language there about "helping women navigate painful life changes" or some such. I also know that this is a referral from my W's friend who divorced about two years ago. More than pure fear of the IC, I think the worst part for me is the idea that this is a pretty good indicator of where my W is mentally/emotionally. I toy with the idea that she's maybe feeling her resolve dip a bit and needs to buy some validation, but then I start down roads that aren't helpful right now.

(e) Sandi2's point of "solid plan of action" -- I think this is very appropriate for your case, precisely because it's SO DAMN HARD to detach & GAL when your in-house. I think you need to write down a list of exactly what you're going to do, and what you're not going to do in/around the house on a regular basis. And I don't mean chores necessarily. I would include how you would communicate w/ your W, how you would express affection (if any, at least for the sake of the kids), etc. My M.O. has been to be a warm, friendly housemate, who, when engaged or asked, is very warm and kind, but generally does not behave like he's trying to coordinate his goals and interests w/ hers. Kind of harks me back to grad school days living w/ other grad students.

I get the sense though, JRuss, that, understandably, all your DB-ing still is anchored to the hope of getting your W to wake up. I think true/best DB-ing is anchored to yourself, to moving on w/o your W. It's a damn paradox.

This is definitely my weak link. I like your idea regarding a list. It will hold me accountable, which I need.

Just thinking aloud here -- and as always, what I wrote above is really me talking to myself. I am sorry to hear about the mini-bomb drop (the echo chamber IC). I might've talked a big game here, but I live in fear of mini-bomb drops every day, and I take a big breath before I open my email every time, telling myself to strap on a pair....

You're a good man, ForGump. I really appreciate the many, many times you've posted in my thread. We are kindred sprits, I think -- really wish I could buy you a beer or three!

[AndrewP]

JRuss - the only thing I might add to what ForGump had to say is that instead of 50% which is room-mate territory, go for 100%. You may have to anyway. If she asks - then tell her that. I know that my W certainly gave me odd looks whenever I did perhaps (mind reading!) thinking that "hey - this is real".

I'm not sure how it affected my W when I was so much better at taking care of the housekeeping than she was. I think she probably thought it was a "kissing up" action on my part because she would leave me a thank-you note or go out of her way to say how nice it looked.

Oh - and make sure that your coq-a-vin is better than her's. Me - I still struggle with Minute Rice.

[JRuss]

Thanks AndrewP -- I'm at least 50% these days, probably up around 58.7% if we were to get actuarial. She still does a ton, and we both collapse exhausted at the end of the day when the kids are in bed. She told me once relatively recently that she no longer thinks I don't pull my weight, which felt great to hear. I knew I'd addressed this particular complaint and had been feeling good about being more actively involved for some time, but it was nice to hear.

Neither one of us likes coq-a-vin, weirdly enough, but I have a few dishes I can hammer into submission.

[MrBond]

" I'm trying to figure out what I can best do in the face of my W going to a shrink in town who has a reputation of helping women navigate the difficulties of divorce."

That's the thing. You can't come up with a plan of action because you really don't know how she's going to react. What you're doing is wasting energy essentially "guessing" as to what she will do. And if there's one thing you and everyone here should know by now is that the WAS is VERY UNPREDICTABLE.

Or to put it another way, there's no sense in making sense of nonsense.

"I get that DBing goes on as long as I can keep making myself fight this fight, I get that I need to try to continue to be "The Lighthouse", but I'm wondering if there's anything else, like something [b]specific[b], I could do."

Continue to do the things that get a positive response, but don't do things just to get a positive response. If it benefits you, go ahead and do it. You need to stop seeing this as a "fight". There is no winner or loser. And nothing is black and white. There are alot of gray areas that you are going to have to navigate through.

"My W has essentially hired a very expensive Validator who makes her money "supporting" women as the divorce their husbands."

So? You can't stop that from happening and it's really none of your business what your W does. She has a right to do what she feels is best for her as much as you do. Control only the things that are in your control. Leave crazy be and instead of just being the lighthouse, be the rock for your kids.