NYGal: Together Again and Happy!

[Painter]

She's not completely out of the fog yet, is what it sounds like to me. She's not ready to take in how much it hurt you. She's still being selfish.

Were you able to stay calm? And yes, did the two of you see the counselor yet?

I'm sorry you're sick! That makes everything worse. I hope you get well quickly and that you can balance these conflicts with some positive interaction.

Also, maybe have someone over to bring you soup.

[MoveFrwd]

So, given that - what next for you?

Then give her consequences if she won't do what you ask.

This is my concern for you. You are setting your boundary of No Contact with OW, and W is walking all over it. All repeating your boundary with no consequence is doing is making her angry. You dont need to make her understand with your boundary....you need to enforce it. Im worried that you are so attached to the outcome of this situation that you arent willing to 'risk' anything by standing up to W and being strong. If she doesnt respect this boundary of yours (and it's clear that she doesnt), what are you going to DO?

[EDF]

W won't tell ow not to contact her because: a)she's a people pleaser and can't take a stand....

I feel like this is just a variant of the earlier "she's too weak" rationalization, that might be clouding your judgement a bit. If you view her as too weak to be able to go NC, or "take a stand", I think that is letting her off too easy and sort of a crutch you use to justify you not enforcing your boundaries.

Realistically, she is showing she is more than willing and capable of making a stand, and unfortunately at the moment she seems to be taking a stand against what you need.

You're a great person, and if she loses you it's her loss, remember that!

[JRuss]

Respectfully, I think the "people pleasing" is being done by you as well. You're afraid to stand up to your W. Understandably, you've seen her come back from a very dark, faraway place, and you don't want to enforce an important boundary because it may drive her away and all "progress" will be lost. But no OW is a very, very valid deal-breaker level boundary for anyone in your position. If this is ever going to work with your WW, it has to be a new relationship built on mutual respect and trust. She's treating you like a doormat, assuming you'll give her what she wants (Plans A and B), which means there's a lack of respect, and you'll (rightly) never trust her as long as she can't even sack up and tell OW it's complete NC for good.

[annab74]

Exactly, NYGal. You say she is a people pleaser, but she knows she's not pleasing you right now. The fact she values others feelings over yours is a huge red flag. Someone who was genuinely repentant and committed to reconciliation would do anything in their power to try to make things right, and that doesn't sound like the case here.

If you set boundaries but there are no consequences for crossing them, why would she ever be motivated to respect the lines you've drawn? Right now, it seems like she realizes she can do whatever she wants and get away with it, so she will probably continue to do so.

The onus is on you to determine what you are willing to put up with, and what actions you are willing to take if crossed. W is cake eating. She is back in the comforts of your familiar relationship, but still leaving the doors open. You are unlikely to change her. The thing that can change about the situation is you.

[NYGal]

I don't know how to change me. I've set boundaries and the consequences are I rage against her and humanity all in one breath. Today they were in a meeting together and ow sat down RIGHT NEXT TO W. Does this sound like W has conveyed any NC at all? W called to tell me that, and I blew up and hung up. Then it occurred to me, and I'm not being too dramatic I don't think, that I feel like a rape victim. With apologies to rape victims, because I can't really feel your pain, it feels like W is consorting with the rapist. And it brings up the trauma of the affair and the despair all over again. Why can't she see that even acknowledging that woman's presence feels like she is being validated. And of course ow has no sense to stay the eff away. She took her place at W's side like she belongs there, and it is NOT ok with me.

But how do I enforce anything? I tell her it's not ok and she says she didn't do anything wrong. ow sat down next to her. W refuses to discuss what to do. For me, it's simple. You could say, that seat is taken. Simple.

I know ow will continue to literally or figuratively take her place at W's side. Because she has to win. She has no moral fiber at all. She has dated 4 different people at our workplace and she just keeps getting away with all kinds of sh!t. And she's the head of HR, for god's sake!!!!! You'd think she might decide to keep her panties on with co-workers for that reason alone.

I'm so damn frustrated, I can't even begin to tell you...

[MrBond]

"I don't know how to change me."

Then you need to learn how. If not, then the same problems are still there. I'm not saying that the things you did were reasons that she had an A, but everyone could do with a little change to make themselves better.

"I've set boundaries and the consequences are I rage against her and humanity all in one breath."

That's not a consequence.

"Today they were in a meeting together and ow sat down RIGHT NEXT TO W."
Does this sound like W has conveyed any NC at all? W called to tell me that, and I blew up and hung up."

Back it up. She called to tell you that the OW ended up sitting next to her. She didn't have to tell you. She could have just blown it off and not told you at all. But it sounded like out of respect for you, she told you and was honest about it. As long as the wasn't rubbing your face in it, then she was being transparent with you. You have to start seeing things like that.

These little steps are what leads to true reconciliation.

Now see it from her perspective. She told you the truth and then you punished her by blowing up at her. Do you think she'll want to tell you the next time something like that happens?

"And of course ow has no sense to stay the eff away. She took her place at W's side like she belongs there, and it is NOT ok with me."

So? You can't control what the OW is going to do. All you can do is control what your own actions are and trust your W to do the same.

"she says she didn't do anything wrong. ow sat down next to her."

And she's correct.

"W refuses to discuss what to do. For me, it's simple. You could say, that seat is taken. Simple."

That's YOUR response. You can't keep trying to control her.

"I know ow will continue to literally or figuratively take her place at W's side. Because she has to win. She has no moral fiber at all. She has dated 4 different people at our workplace and she just keeps getting away with all kinds of sh!t. And she's the head of HR, for god's sake!!!!! You'd think she might decide to keep her panties on with co-workers for that reason alone."

Again, you can't control what the OW does. You have to let that go.

"I'm so damn frustrated, I can't even begin to tell you..."

You need help to navigate through your emotions before you keep saying things that are going to hurt your sitch. Have the two of you been to counseling yet? You have to start letting go of your anger.

[NYGal]

Thanks, Mr. Bond. I can see the truth in your statements.
We are going to our 3rd counseling session tonight, as a matter of fact.
So I'm just supposed to let it all go and not worry that W won't tell ow to stay away? To me, that's leaving the door open to a friendship or something. I don't really think they will ever get back together. That was a disaster from day one. Frankly, I guess I feel some need for revenge -- some way to see ow punished or in some way hurt by what she did. Instead, she's getting a big promotion and still thinks she can just claim her place next to my W. I don't know if I have what it takes to just let it go.

And as long as we all continue to work here, it will always be there. I can't escape it, and I feel like she's just laughing at me by continuing to seek out my W.

[MrBond]

"We are going to our 3rd counseling session tonight, as a matter of fact."

That's good. I think you should also see an C for yourself that's not your MC.

"So I'm just supposed to let it all go and not worry that W won't tell ow to stay away?"

Yes because you can't CONTROL what your W does. She has to be the one to come up with her actions.

"To me, that's leaving the door open to a friendship or something."

If you don't have your W make up her own mind as to what she really wants (you, OW, etc.), then if it's not this person it could be someone else down the line.

"Frankly, I guess I feel some need for revenge -- some way to see ow punished or in some way hurt by what she did. Instead, she's getting a big promotion and still thinks she can just claim her place next to my W."

The revenge is understandable. The OM in my sitch was much worse so I get it. But in the end I figured out that I was LETTING this OM have power over me and my action. Don't give her that power. The fact that your W has chosen you, is revenge enough.

"I don't know if I have what it takes to just let it go."

Then break it off with your W. That is in your control. If you don't want to let it go, then don't. All it's going to do is continue to eat you up. Everyone can learn to let things go. That's what your own C can help you do. It probably comes from somewhere else deep down in your past that has nothing to do with the OW.

"And as long as we all continue to work here, it will always be there. I can't escape it, and I feel like she's just laughing at me by continuing to seek out my W."

That's just you screwing around with your own head.

[Si_07]

NYGal, I feel for you because it seems like you are in a position similar to where I was last year. The rage and getting fighting against will do more harm than good. Trust me on this. It is where I went wrong, everytime my W kept talking about what the OM was doing and coming by talking to her. I flipped out, lost control of my emotions and completely broke me down. It pushes my W away, maybe for good. I didn't have the help like here, I understand your frustration. You want to see more recognition from W, just like I did, I wanted her to see how much it was hurting me but she wouldn't see it that way. It was still all about her back then.

I don't have the advice to really help you other than to try and keep you anger and frustration in control as much as it still hurts.