Being good at disagreement

[Rouky]

Jujub,
I can SO relate to your post. I really struggle with the abandonment and the fact that H doesn't love me as I'm not such a bad person.

I have been on few dates but nothing goes further. I do believe it's because I still love H and I haven't dropped THAT rope! It is hard. I guess some people are quicker than us to turn round and start a new life. I guess we are the soft ones and it will us longer!

[Zues126]

Good to hear from you again J.

Number one, I'd recommend holding off on dating. This isn't DB advice, it's just my own. I'm sure you've heard me talk of the 1 year rule, waiting 1 year from when the divorce is final. Not separation, not move out date, not bomb drop...the actual legal process being done. It takes way longer than people think to be really ready.

The problem is that when you're hurting it makes other people artificially attractive. If they make you feel less pain you think you like THEM, when really you're linking them to the relief from the hurt. But when you heal you no longer need them to medicate, and you start to see them for who they are, not how they help your mood. At which point you hurt someone else, hurt yourself by reliving all the suppressed pain and the new loss, or worse find yourself stuck in a long term committed relationship that will ultimately be unfulfilling and leave you lonely and regretful for the rest of your days. Contrast that with holding off until you're healthy and ready to make good decisions. What's the rush? I never understood this.

As for being exhausted and the choice between happiness and misery, I often think people misunderstand this. I just posted
this on Cherry's thread:

My only advise to you is not to be too hard on yourself for feeling overwhelmed or sad. That is a human response to a horrible situation. I know we try to detach and get off the roller coaster a bit, and I certainly agree with that goal. But don't think there is some DB secret that will prevent you from feeling hit by a truck a lot of the time. Pain is pain. If you burn your hand on a stove you're going to hurt, your pain isn't an indication that you are doing something wrong in terms of failing to detach from your hand. It's just going to hurt. Please give yourself permission to hurt.

I'm not saying to dwell on it, or not to detach. But in a new age world in which people act like there's a flippant fix for whatever problems there are, and people give advise like 'you don't need a jerk like that', it can deprive us of our need to grieve. By all means, go ahead and grieve. Whatever pain, anger, or depression waves over you this is a safe place. It's not dwelling on it. It's dealing with the reality that you are in the middle of. If you start becoming a clinging victim we'll let you know, but I am more concerned that you'll think something is wrong with you for feeling bottomed out a lot of the time.

Again, I think people on these forums hide from their pain and medicate using new relationships too much, thinking they are 'choosing to be happy'. I say 'choose to grieve and accept your loss'. It should be a balance, allowing yourself to feel the pain, and being appreciative for the life you still have. If you allow both in your life, gradually the time you are hurting and the time you spend rehashing this in your mind will tip. In a year it will go from 50/50 to 80/20, then in another year 95/5. Or whatever. But we must go through this process. Trying to rush it will lead to problems.

Same goes for being exhausted, of course you are. You don't have a partner, have to handle more things than ever, have new things like legal process looming, have uncertainty and pain tiring you out, have to deal with an hour a day of racing thoughts of 'why' and 'how', etc. You will be exhausted. I was for sure, as you know if you followed my posts. This too shall pass.

Point is don't let the pain and fatigue influence your decisions. Just keep making good decisions based on your beliefs and you'll get somewhere you'll want to be before you know it. Until then I'm sorry you're here, it stinks, and we are all here for you to listen as much as you care to share.

[JujuB]

Its been a while since I've been on. I have not been keeping up as I usually like to. I've just been tired lately. Like completely fatigued. for the most part, I'm either working or with son, who certainly has some behavior issues. (When school starts it will get easier) I am vey stressed about making legal decisions, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to post about it at present. Husband has hidden or depleted marital assets though and I feel forced to go a route I really don't want to. But I'm still having trouble. We only talk son logistics (which I prefer) except when husband wants something. Then he sends me friendly texts... Very insulting but I keep it at simple sentence responses. I'm finding that I want to talk about him less and less.

Zues, I have been thinking a lot about your post regarding dating. I don't necessarily disagree with what your saying, and I do go back and forth. And I too have thought some of the arguments that you pose.

These were some of my thoughts contradicting that argument.

1. Yes dating might be self medicating. So is drinking. So are anti depressants. (2 things I've stayed away from) Both have side effects. Sometimes we just need something to make life more pleasant. As long as we don't abuse it, do the benefits outweigh the side effects?

2. What is dating anyway? It's getting to know someone. Possibly for friendship or something more. Is getting to know someone really self medicating, or is it just opening your life up to new experiences, opinions, banter, company etc?

My favorite quote..."hell is other people". But then again, so is life.

3. Perhaps I'm healthier now then ever before. I know I'm a lot more laid back about people and life in general. I listen better. I'm less judgemental. I met my husband when I was in my early 20s. God. I would not want to be that person again! Yet I dated in my 20s, knowing so much less then I do now.

4. I don't know if I will ever be truly healed. I still haven't healed from that first relationship when I was 18! But I still pushed forward and had a 15 year relationship with my husband and a beautiful child. Waiting to be the best I can be would be like someone waiting to look like Arnold schwartzenneger before heading out to the beach. That can take years! And that person is missing out on the beauty and fun of being at the beach.

Anyway, these are just some quick thoughts. I'm not sure what or if there are correct answers. I look forward to exchanging ideas on this. I am going to try to catch up soon on all of my old friends posts. And resume journaling again.

[Zues126]

Good to hear from you j. I've been waiting patiently for the reply, no hurry here. But you've been in my thoughts.

Your reply is interesting. Self medicating, getting to know other people, health, healing...all things on a spectrum. All about balance. But when debating this requires you go to an extreme end of the spectrum, that's when I question it. I am not suggesting you wait until you are 'fully healed', whatever that means, or that you don't self medicate in any way, or that you wait to be perfect. Those are exaggerations of my point designed to rationalize doing something that would make us feel better in the here and now. This is why I don't trust feelings and thoughts. We can debate endlessly with ourselves and will ultimately do what we want, unless we have other guides to follow.

And, just for kicks, let's pretend that it could be either way. Maybe dating isn't a big deal right now, maybe it causes you and someone else a lot of pain, stunts your healing, and potentially gets you and your children in a sticky situation with someone that you regret being with. If you were thinking clearly looking at that risk/reward does it really make sense to rush into something? Would a person ready to make good choices about their next partner be so needy they couldn't run their own life for a year on their own? I'm not saying this well, but you get the point.

You don't need my permission, shoot, I'm in the minority, most people feel the same things you do and make the same conclusions. Just doesn't work for me, so I will cast my vote and beat to my own drum. I am over 2 years from BD and physical separation, and I still know in my heart I am sorting, reflecting, and recovering in a lot of ways. No, I will never 'fully heal', but I won't feel like my life is a bad dream with no waking. That's a feeling I still have sometimes, that I have good times amid a bad dream, not that life itself is a joy daily. I have felt that way before and know I can feel that way again. I am just not there yet, and it takes time. More time than I thought. Gosh, sometimes it takes time to understand how much time it takes because we want it to be 'better' so much we try to convince ourselves it's all better when it isn't. And we can forget what better feels like. But it will come, all I have to do is be patient and do what I know is right.

In the meantime I wish for you to have some of those peaceful and happy moments in the middle of the suffering. There is so much more lost than the companionship of an individual, the grieving process is reborn again and again. Shoot, I was flying back from Vegas yesterday and was reminded of a trip that I had taken XW to, I had won us a trip to Vegas, and at the airport on the way home we played this stupid slot machine with a bear trying to catch salmon, and we kept hitting, I don't remember the details but there was some bonus "salmon run" and the machine kept paying out, and we were laughing and laughing. And the trip after to Vegas where I beat a world champion in a big tournament for the first time and was written up in a magazine, and was so excited to come home to my wife who loved me and was proud of me. Yup, all gone, all past, now I wait at the airport by myself, and come home to type on divorce forums. I'm still digesting this all J.

Anyway, rambling again. But do take good care of yourself. Thanks for checking in. Take care of yourself legally, as long as you act with the entire family in mind and aren't punishing then you'll be moving the right direction. Hang in and keep posting.

[mustardseed]

zeus, I understand what you are saying about needing to learn to be alone before getting into another relationship. I used to listen to Dr. Joy Browne and she is adamant about the one year rule and it makes sense. However, I don't quite understand what constitutes dating as it relates to the one year rule. I've been tempted to call her show to see if I can get clarification.

Dating can mean a lot of things and if it weren't for dating I think I would have had a miserable, lonely, depressing year. I made it a point to get out of the house as much as possible this past year. Sometimes I had to go it alone, often I was able to recruit family, and other times I depended on male companions--dates. My female friends were/are NEVER available. But never in any of these circumstances was a possible relationship a goal. Does that still count as dating?

I noticed the first time out that the lines blurred on both sides. There was a lot of confusion and frustration. After too many "second chances" I realized that friendship will not work for me so I stepped back.

Another sitch slipped into a routine that seemed dangerously close to R territory--but with some open communication and putting our other obligations ahead of the routine of seeing each other we both were able to take a step back. And it has been a good thing. I enjoy his friendship and companionship, but we are both focused on our own growth after D and were on the same page about putting on the breaks.

Most recent has a significant amount of physical distance that forces us to take things super slow. His D timeline is almost identical to mine--and with similar family make up. So many parallels. We talk often, only met once. I probably could have easily gotten caught up in this one, but the distance and slow pace has given me the space to reflect on why the draw, and how I feel about red flags. I think if he were local I might have made exceptions and overlooked things I recently decided were deal breakers. Now I am analyzing it all from a distance.

I've learned a lot about how I communicate. The consequences of my actions on others. And the importance of knowing exactly where to draw lines--and the significance of those lines. I don't think I would have realized that I needed to learn those things had I waited a year and jumped right into looking for an R sort of dating. I probably would have once again let things move too quickly. Overlooked the red flags or deal breakers, or rationalized them. I would have Jumped from meeting, to fireworks, to obligation--just like my old pattern--without paying attention to red flags, or my responses, or boundaries.

This casual dating is really a life lesson and I don't regret doing it. I absolutely plan to follow the one year rule for serious dating with R as an end goal, but in the mean time I see no harm in making friends with men in a date-like situation. I am upfront, and I learned from guy#1 fiasco how to stay true to my word and not accidentally send mixed messages. To take time to assess rather than leading with emotion. My kids do not need to know who I socialize with.

[JujuB]

Thank you for your posts zues and mustard seed


Here is a reason I admittedly should not be dating...

That guy I went on a date with is lots of fun and we have been texting and exchanging funny banter and getting to know each other. We hung out in non date group settings as well. He is very sensitive and seems to like me a lot. It really feels great to have that attention and to just laugh with someone. But yesterday was an awful day regarding my son and husband exchange. Like so awful I am still crying over it, and I realized I cannot discuss that with him. I am going through serious stuff, and discussing that stuff would just be so inappropriate.

So this is what has me in tears...

I have been having so much trouble with my sons behavior. I don't really know what is norm for a 5 year old. He is really mad at me and talks to me like a teenager would. STBX switched weekedns around and basically went 2 weekends in row without seeing son. Yesterday when he came to drop off son, my son did not want to leave. He was begging father to take him back. He kept running back to fathers car. Major crying. I tried to help once but then went back inside because son was trying to run away from me.

In all fairness, STBX was telling him he loves him...but then I heard him say to son that if he doesn't go inside he can't come back on Wednesday (husband is taking him 5 days this weekend) I overheard that and when son was running away to car, I told him that he should never threaten son with something like that. STBX responded with "well your staying inside and not helping". Thne I was saying to son that he saw daddy this weekend and will see him all day on Thursday and he said right in front of his father " I didn't get to see daddy because he was sleeping and working. I only got to play with grandma" and STBX responded that he took him to trampoline house.

For almost 2 hrs Son literally cried and had tantrum about how he wants to be with his father and how when he is 16 he is going to drive to daddy's house and how daddy lied to him and told him I was going to give him a prize. How he wants his daddy to live with him. He called his dad and asked him to move back home and husband said "no mommy and me are separated but I love you" and then son said "if you change your mind you can come back" Husband called tonight to talk to him for the second time in over a year.

I feel really bad about my son. Someone told me that he can be mad at me because I am a safe person for him to be mad at. I know that in life no one has things perfect or fair. But we always want the best for our children and I hate that son is suffering. I am fearful that son will neglect his own child just like husband was neglected by his dad. Because my son doesn't know better.

And here's the scary thing. Of course I say I am not looking for someone to father my son, but deep down I do want a father figure for my son to model.

[Zues126]

Tough day J.

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. It's easy to do, but it's a form of distorted thinking to start extrapolating. Like "H treated S badly", to "S won't have a father figure", to "S will do this to his children", to "My family's will now be broken and in pain for generations because of WAH!" Somewhere in that train of thought you have to pause and think maybe you're getting a little carried away.

Just because things hurt today doesn't mean they will in a year. Just because WAH is acting this way doesn't mean he will in a year.

It's obvious he feels the need to create some personal space for himself, to have his own boundaries, to be his own person. It's a power struggle, he is making the point to you, son, and himself, that he gets to do what he wants to do. Once you and son stop fighting him and he realizes that he gets to do what he wants, but that he lives with those consequences, he will likely realize that he doesn't really want to not see his son, or to not have a good relationship with him.

I personally wasn't a good father until BD for a number of reasons, but I've been closer with them than ever the last couple of years. I would do it again if I could, but we are currently a close family and all is well. They will know their dad, that is for sure.

Point is that people can change. I get upset with WAS's because they say things like "I can't spend the rest of my life like this" or "I don't like who you are" or "ILYBINILWY" acting like those are all permanent things, when in reality those things would all change if they waited them out for a few years. Let's not make the same mistake of assuming they will always be this way or making things more catastrophic than they are. They are bad enough already, no need to make them worse

[mustardseed]

Hugs to you juju. That is the hardest part to see your child hurting and knowing the fix is out of your hands. You are the safe place for him. It is a good thing but also can feel helpless. You are doing an amazing job through all of this.

[Altair]

Juju,
Transitions for five year olds are very traumatic, if you can look at it that way. It's hard to go from one house to the next, and the kids might act out, emotionally. It doesn't necessarily mean what they are saying! It's exhaustion, too much candy, etc., etc.. Some kids melt down at any transition, even when it is good to good. So chin up, don't worry about how Dad brokers it with promises, let him stabilize during transition, I bet the next day after rest and sugar decrease things will get better.

[Cessna]

Zues126, your last post was very succinct and really resonated with me. Nothing is permanent! People do change! Yep, people and relationships are dynamic. Fluid. Just like the emotions we are going through now. Time creates change if nothing else. Motivation certainly does too. I just bet that 99% people on this site have made some major changes (for the good). Great words!