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#2697356 08/17/16 07:01 AM
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Hello everyone. I thought I'd pop over here from the Newcomer's board for possibly a short thread. If you are really really bored here are my threads from over there

Previous threads

Thread 1 - Fresh Meat
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678621&page=1

Thread 2 - Twisting in the Wind
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2691981&page=1

Thread 3 - Confessions of a failed mind reader
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2696636&page=1

Thead 4 - And now we wait
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2697336&page=1


On BD1 I had presumed that my W was suffering from a MLC. For a couple of years prior she had become more and more depressed (or so it seemed) and was certainly suffering all of the expected peri-menopause symptoms. Her Dr recommended that she take hormones but she refused (she doesn't like the Dr). She suffered greatly from night sweats and her sleep got worse (I would joke that she was revolving not sleeping) and would have memory losses and a lot of anger. At the same time along with the kids moving out her parents became very ill and needed to move into a nursing home. Both parents nearly died multiple times. Because of the timing my W ended up moving in with her mother for a time and serving as a personal support worker attending to her daily needs. A lot of anger and resentment built up between her, her parents and her siblings.

There was childhood sexual abuse by an uncle which the family ignored. Her childhood was fairly unhappy with a lot of stress and tension in the house caused at least in part by her father being very wayward. As a teenager and young woman she was very rebellious and engaged in some very unsafe practices including at one point being OW in a relationship.

At home I did my best to be supportive of W and would listen to her rage and vent about the people she worked with and her relatives. None of this would be directed at me. I was concerned because W loved her job - in some ways almost more than family. I myself went through a rough patch last summer and W was very supportive but I don't think noticed when it passed as I more actively worked on my hunt for a new position. W herself seemed to progressively get more and more overwhelmed by day to day life and frustrated with things like youth volunteering that was a big part of her self-identity earlier.

Around the same time (2 years ago) W started hanging out with younger and more "party friendly" people occasionally drinking to excess. I encouraged her in this as I thought that it would help her be less depressed. She also started a diet and exercise (walking) routine. The walking routine eventually became the cover story for meeting with OM.

OM was an older widower who (IMO) was pursuing W that she met through work. I even warned her about it but she told me he was "safe". They would often have lunch or drinks after work. Since I worked long hours this probably happened more often than I was aware. Some time in the early new year W (I believe) fell in love with OM and this was quickly consummated. Her stress level increased. Her forgetfulness was getting worse as was her ability to perform her regular household duties. Oddly, she started putting a bit more effort into our sex life perhaps because my impotence started becoming a bit worse due to my weight and drinking. OM was very needy and would call/text often and they would have long phone calls. I believe that for their encounters though that W would drive from our area 1 hour to where OM lived - perhaps to help keep it secret.

After the A started W became even more depressed and her alcohol consumption increased dramatically. At no time though even though she had a lot of anger issues did she ever direct that anger at me. She told me numerous times that she wasn't good enough for me and that I should find someone else which I just put down to depression and tried to reassure her that there was no one else I wanted. She also told me a few times that she felt that because of me that she was a better person than she would naturally have been because I had such high standards for behaviour. It would be part of the daily spew to vent about her co-workers and her family but never me. Later she told me that she wasn't depressed in this phase but rather sad. There was a certain amount of disrespect aimed my way but it was minimal. On vacation she got very drunk several times and told me that she was leaving and that there was nothing I could do about it and that I needed to find someone else and that she didn't deserve me and wasn't good enough for me.

The next month was the beginning of h@ll for both of us. I did all the expected begging and pleading and trying to find out what I had done wrong. W spent more and more time out - often drinking with "friends" and often with (I presume) OM. Our sex life continued more or less as normal.

BD2 came when I discovered OM and confronted W. She admitted to it and was terrified. The next day I sat and talked with W to lay out ground rules but assured her that I wanted her back. I gave her enough time to talk to OM first but she said he "wasn't available". We then moved on to the next level of h@ll for both of us. W seemed to be in fear a lot of the time with swings of confidence and cockiness. She moved out of the MBR of her own free will (I asked her to come back at first) and began a life of extreme discomfort. Around this time I also found this forum. She would also, especially after an encounter with OM make extra effort to do something nice for me such as make me what she thought was my favourite meal. Originally she was extremely angry (not directed at me in any fashion) but over time we would settle into interacting "normally". She also worked very hard on being open and honest about her movements. I treated her with respect and courtesy and while not enabling her waywardness and was very obvious in my anger and views on it, did not try to argue or plead and worked on detaching and building myself. I would make efforts to be reliable like I always was and listen when she was there to her spew about her day. OM was never a topic.

W would also talk about moving out and started making small moves towards that like carrying all her personal papers with her everywhere and sneaking small items and boxes into her room. I even made efforts to enable her to move out but did say that I didn't want her to. Numerous emotional crisis came and went for W - some very very bad to the point where I was concerned she would self harm.

After several months of this she did finally move out saying that she needed to get away from the "noise". She now lives by herself with her dog (which I offered to look after - he's a PITA) in a house at the edge of the village. I know that OM has visited her there so that is still ongoing. I am doing my best to GAL, move on and be dark. From what I've gathered W's emotional state continues to deteriorate and is pretty bad right now. I ache to reach out to her but do not. She does, I believe know that I will take her back if that is what she wants or let her go if she chooses that path. Despite living in a small village where everyone knows that she has moved out and I suspect that many know about OM she is adamant in keeping her A secret, still wears all of her rings and has made no move towards a S. She does know that if she chooses that path that I will file for D with infidelity as the grounds and that there will be no "being friends" afterwards.

Through this W (generally) has been very prudent with family resources and since she left has not taken a penny to support herself although she is now depositing her pay in her private account. When the house was stripped she did her best I think to ensure my comfort and to not be "unfair".

My big question here and why I came to this board from Newcomers is that I've been treating my W as a WW as much as I can (pretty emotionally tied to her for the harder tactics). I've let her go, I've gone dark and am working on moving on alone. I've not made any efforts to find a new R or adjust my lifestyle but am just slowly moving W's remaining belongings out to the front porch where they sit. While on one hand W has made efforts to hide from me by not giving me or our children a forwarding address she isn't really hiding because she has a unique vehicle that is parked obviously beside the house she is in. She (I believe) has disconnected from many of her friends of her drinking days. She has kept her status and the existence of OM quiet and I think has only told most people that she has left and not about OM.

She had said that she is only able to stay where she is until the end of September. It would be easy for her to move in with OM although that would mean (probably) giving up her job but he is well off and they would live quite comfortably. He has 3 adult children and several grandchildren. I continue to wonder why she is being a martyr when she doesn't need to be. All through this she has pretty much "never" taken the easy and cake filled path. She did say before she left that she does still love me. I know that I am a better man and husband than I was a year ago as well.

I would "really" appreciate any thoughts on whether I should adjust anything in my path and "if" (I know not to ask when) there is a chance that I'll ever hold her in my arms again.
In the mean-time I'll continue with the "plan" of staying dark, GAL, showing the world as happy of a face as is reasonable for a man whose wife has abandoned him, keeping quiet about what is going on and preparing to live as a single man.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Bump?


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D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.


I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.


Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Thanks Cadet - fresh homework! - different than the standard newcomer I read months ago wink I hope I find some guidance in this.

Detaching has been in progress for some time - one day I may even figure out how to do it. N/C is only part of it.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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WOW! My W hits pretty much all the boxes on the MLC signs and I do on the LBS stages. I especially resonate with some of the writing about how the LBS thinks and what other people say to/about them.

Crap - it looks like this might be a very long road - I really don't know if I'm strong enough. My SIL support army was pushing me really hard yesterday to give up - "this has gone on too long", "she doesn't deserve you" etc etc.

Lunch time's over - more reading later.

Thanks for the resources Cadet - any thoughts from others would be welcome too. I've now got to figure out if/how this bicycle works or if it is a toboggan.

Sigh.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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Just one question if anyone can help. I'll try to wait until tomorrow before acting on my own if there are no thoughts from experience MLC DBers.

My W posted what is essentially a "cry for help" on Facebook a couple of days ago which got minimal responses. Thinking of her as a WW I did not react at all and she had a few female friends respond. What I "really" wanted to do then and still want to do is to reach out to her privately and let her know that I am still here for her if she needs me.

Thoughts?

PS - Plan A is to do nothing and curse myself for not being all I can be for her.


On BD
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S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Andrew,
It depends upon what type of help she's seeking. Is the help she's seeking something simple?

Also, it could be that she's testing you to see if you are looking at her FB page.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Glad the extra homework you are finding useful.

Unless she is posting on facebook about suicide or hurting herself if would suggest it is better to keep quiet.

She basically gets the same advice that we give here.
She has to FIX herself, no one else can do it for her.

Make sense?


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job - I've thought about the possibility of it being a trap which makes me cautious. Another post around the same time seemed to be targeted at me (food related) which I also ignored. Considering that she has only made 7 posts in almost 4 weeks as opposed to the 1 or 2 per day pre move-out anything she is posting I had been treating as significant.

Using those Facebook pictures you find all over the place on our anniversary she had posted a "I want to be strong but this is hard" type post which I ignored as did everyone else except 2 semi-random people (usually she'd have 40+ responses to something like that). This one was 3 days later (on Monday) and said I am a strong person but once in a while I would like someone to take my hand and tell me that everything is going to be alright. Four friends have responded positively. The response I'd "like" to do would be to send this back to her as a private message with a note of the sort "If you need me I'm here for you - Love AndrewP"

What I'm hugely worried about is that she may well be going through a major crisis with little safety net. Her mental state was pretty shaky when she left and from what I've gathered her performance at the job she loves is going downhill since then and it had been getting rocky for quite some time before. OM can't to be counted on - he's proven that before. I want her to know that if she wants me that I am here for her and I am concerned about the possibility of self-harm or rash actions but I don't want to chase her farther away.

My window of opportunity to respond I suspect has expired though - it's been about 3 days.

From the crisis yesterday when it appeared that a friend of her's had outed her about the A (which I freaked at - sent her 3 very terse texts - false alarm - she immediately amended the post) she does know that I at least have some visibility on her feed.

At present I've "un-followed" her on Facebook about 3 weeks ago to reduce the mind-reading that was driving me very mad and am now almost 20 hours into not checking her page. My SIL have assured me that they will keep an eye on her and alert me if there seems to be any major developments - which was the price required to get me to back off.

It sort of goes around to how I should treat her differently if she is in a MLC - I've been working all along on being a "lighthouse" and know that she can see me GAL and taking care of things. I'm dark to her and she has not reached out to me at all. I believe that she does clearly know that I still love her and am waiting for her to make a choice between OM / me / or another path which she said she was moving out to do. I occasionally play with the idea of letting her thing that I'm exploring a new R but that's playing with fire and gasoline.

Please help me know which way I should go.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
It sort of goes around to how I should treat her differently if she is in a MLC - I've been working all along on being a "lighthouse" and know that she can see me GAL and taking care of things.
I'm dark to her and she has not reached out to me at all.

Please help me know which way I should go.

Treat her the same way as a WAS, your actions are no different because she is in MLC.

MLC takes a VERY VERY VERY LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG TIME


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I totally agree w/Cadet 100%...you will treat her no differently than you would a WAS. As for responding to her on FB, i.e., private message, I would leave her alone and allow her to figure things out. Also, if you do post to her, leave the "love" out of your closing signature. They hate for us to say things like that in the MLC world.

I know you love her and want to help her, but you can't. This is her journey to take and while on her journey, it will give her the opportunity to face her issues, deal w/them and grow up.

MLC takes a very, very long time and in some cases, they don't come out of it. For now, keep the focus on you and your family and allow her to twirl in the wind. You didn't break her, therefore, you can't fix her.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thank you so much cadet and job.

Since this really makes no fundamental change to how I'll handle my sitch I'll go back to my regular thread but I will definitely go through the homework.

I was kind of hoping this would get me a shortcut to reconciliation but it looks like it may well be a long detour on a much rockier road than if she was just a regular WW. I'm glad too about the warning about time. "If" she does come back in the short term I'll have to be watching / worried about her for quite some time.

I honestly don't know if I'm strong enough for this. I'll have to think.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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You are always welcome to continue posting here. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix, magic pill or a "let's hurry this process up" when dealing w/someone in crisis. We, unfortunately are now on their time, which is very, very slow.

I would take my time in deciding whether you want to continue on your own journey while she's traveling hers. You can always move forward, leave the door ajar and live your life to the fullest. But, the bottom line is this...you need to ensure that your finances are taken care of, i.e., protected. This includes checking your credit history, as well as ensuring that your credit cards are not being used by her.

You are stronger than you think.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thanks job. I've been keeping an even closer eye on the finances since BD1 in March. I've always been careful with them and have plans in place. On the advice of my L and because I didn't want to be seen as pushing her out I've kept everything as is beyond opening a personal account of my own which I don't use. W has full visibility into all of our banking and books still and I know she checks from time to time what's going on. W has always had her own personal chequing/savings account that she used for "mad money". In the past all expenses and pay were done out of our joint accounts and W would save from her weekly pocket money or her bonus at work to populate her personal account.

One of the very non-script things that have been in my sitch is that W has been extremely careful to "not take advantage" of anything. Yes - she did some expensive car repairs just before she walked and bought some extra cleaning supplies but even during the height of the A she never used family finances in any way that could be considered inappropriate. Before she recently blocked me from seeing her personal account which only had a fairly small amount of money in it she wasn't spending out of there either. To the best of my knowledge she doesn't have her own separate credit card either. Even though she is now banking separately and opaquely she did do a single deposit a week or so ago to our joint account to cover "her share" of the mortgage payment. She said on the night before she moved out that she would pay her "fair share" of household expenses.

To further protect myself I've installed a (pretty crappy - cameras and alerts only) security system and advised W that it is there and offered her access to the monitoring app. She's not come back into the house for any of the things she's left behind even though she now lives about 3 blocks away and has had more than ample opportunity.

Thank you for the invitation to post further here. I may come back to this thread from time to time as I go through Cadet's homework this weekend and as my journey continues.

I've a post I'm composing for my main thread about my journey - feeling rather lost myself right now.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
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Quote:

I really don't know if I'm strong enough.


You're stronger than you know, you will find out exactly how strong you are.

Quote:

My SIL support army was pushing me really hard yesterday to give up - "this has gone on too long", "she doesn't deserve you" etc etc.


Make it CLEAR to her that her advice is not what you need. You need her support in your decision, not in what she thinks you need or want.

How are you doing today?

I hope a few more posters come along to help you out sir.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

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Andrew,

Not everything that happens in MLC follows the script. Most but not all...

I am sorry that you find yourself going through this and I am sorry that your W is suffering so...

The hard part of all of this is that you can't fix her. Or anything about this for her.

I don't have an answer as to what to do about the FB posts other than it's probably best to leave it alone.

You have the strength to do this for as long as you want to...

One of my favorite people made the decision daily. If the day comes that your decision is different, it will be ok and because you are ready, not because someone else pushed you into it.

Friends and family want what they think is best for us. What will be easiest and what will ease the pain we seem to be in. They don't have to live with our decisions though.

Keep posting here. You will find the support you need through this.

And eventually, you will provide the support for others. Just sort of how it goes smile



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First of all - the advice I am about to give you, may need to be modified if you yourself ever cheated on her earlier in the marriage.

Assuming that this is NOT the case, let me recommend the following:

Do you know anything about Aikido? In this form of martial arts, you use the momentum and body weight of your attacker to throw them. You don't push back, you roll with their attack and throw them over.

Remember playing tug-of-war as a child? If you suddenly drop the rope, what happens? The other side falls down.

So long as you are reassuring her that you are there waiting as her Plan B, she will feel this as pressure and will keep tugging on that rope. Try DROPPING THE ROPE instead.

Luckily for you, you ARE in a small village, so any changes you make will be visible to her. I recommend that you :

1) Focus on YOURSELF. You mentioned looking for a job - do you have one now? Is it a good one? If not, what do you have to do to get a good job? If she is attracted to this older man because of the promise of financial security, and if your episode of depression and unemployment was a factor in her MLC affair, fix your side of the street as best you can.

2) Go out and have fun. The WAS likes to think we are sitting there pining for them - don't give her the satisfaction! What have you always wanted to do or learn that you held back from? Go out and do it! Life is short, if you knew you had six months to live you would probably not spend it moping around about her. When my ex had his first affair, I started training to climb Mount Whitney - we were reconciled by the time of the climbing date and he went with me. When he finally left many years later - I took up playing the drums. I know he was completely perplexed at the idea of me playing the drums in a punk band - after all, he thought HE was the musician in the family because he could strum a handful of Neil Young tunes he learned in college on an acoustic guitar. Since then I've carved out a fun hobby for myself playing drums in a cover band and playing vibraphone and percussion for a friend who is a professional - I even played in her band at SXSW one year! Living well really IS the best revenge. smile

3) Focus on your kids. They will be totally confused by her antics right now and may even lash out at you (because you're the "safe" one - if they tell her what they think of her they might lose her.) Just be their rock, love and support them.

4) If finances allow, take a vacation. Be a little mysterious about where you're going, or with whom. If she presses for answers, remind her that she lost that privilege when she moved out.

5) Go out with friends. Don't date - if she DOES come back, she'll hold it over you forever, as hypocritical as that might be - but it's ok to let her think you MIGHT be in a position to date. The WAS seldom thinks about the possibility that the LBS might be desirable in the eyes of others - and sometimes it does snap them back into reality when they realize we're not waiting around for them.

6) Think dog training - reward the good behaviors, ignore the bad ones. If she contacts you in a friendly way, respond in kind. If she calls you up to spew, guess what? Your cell phone mysteriously drops the call - if she calls back, you tell her you must have hit a hole in the cell coverage. (After doing this a few times, my ex finally stopped spewing at me on the phone. Eventually I trained him to only communicate by email lol.)

7) Make plans for your life AS IF she is not going to return. Don't get me wrong - she very well may return. But waiting around on her for 2 years while she goes through this is wasting valuable years of life for you. Try to get out of "waiting" mode and into "Living" mode - that way, you will at least have had some adventures during that time she was in Lala land.

8)Painful as this all is, it is a unique opportunity to re-evaluate your life, your goals, your dreams - and remove whatever limitations you have been putting on yourself. Dream big. Create an exciting life for yourself that she will WANT to join you in.

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Jack / cat - thank you so much for stopping by. I'm spending most of my time on Newcomers so as to not mix threads up too much. I started out there back in April figuring that I had a standard WW but too many things didn't ring true which is why I swung by MLC to dip my toes.

Today - today was rough. I broke down multiple times at work even though it's been 6 months since BD. I have OK days and bad days and sometimes "really" bad days. I'm working on focusing on me and moving ahead. I'm seeing an IC who is some help but I don't see her often and she seems to spend more time rolling her eyes about W's antics than guiding me. I have hopes for a better session when I see her tomorrow morning.

All three of the SIL (from "my" side not W's) who have been supporting me have been fabulous. I've toned back what I share with them and we all are trying to focus on our own separate issues and getting healthier in our own way. I have them monitoring W's Facebook and listening for rumours because that puts a firewall between that and me. So far it's worked out OK and they assure me that they will let me know if anything significant happens like OM making a public appearance or her having a long string of crisis. It's been almost a week since I last checked W's Facebook activity - Go Me!

As you can tell I am very worried about W even now that I've taken even more focus off of her. Even before she left she would cycle through giddy highs and scary lows every few weeks. When she left she was on a "very" low low saying things like "It's all on me". She was having a lot of concentration problems, became forgetful and would lash out angrily all around her (except at me) when talking to me. I have no clue how she is around others but I've heard through the village grapevine that she is struggling at work which is a shock.

It's also been a surprise that she's abandoned the possessions she left behind even though she now lives 3 blocks away and can easily get them. She has more than enough to get by though but there are now about 10 boxes of things that I've stacked up in the front porch where she can't help but see them that would make her life easier if she in fact is permanently gone. She continues to not make any use of family finances even though they are completely open to her. I am mystified by her strong efforts to be "fair" and "not take advantage" which is contrary to every script I've read.

I believe - but can't know - that she is in fact near to decision point on which direction she will be taking in her life and it frustrates me to know end that she still has her enabling friends and OM around her while she decides this and not me.

Looking at her sitch "logically" she has no good choices at all. They all will result in some sort of trauma for her even if she chooses to come back home. I worry that she feels stuck and lost with nowhere to turn. I wish so much that I could reach out to her and let her know that I am here for her but from what I've read that would be very counter-productive.

So - I'm giving her room to make her own journey knowing that I'm not driving that bus and dreading which way it goes. Even if she does turn back towards me, will her MLC end when perimenopause finishes or will she cycle over and over again? I can't know.

Crumbs of hope are "very" welcome if there are any you can toss my way. Even knowing that MLC may be a long road, if she were back I could perhaps help her navigate that road as well (?)

BTW - a truly bizarre thing happened yesterday afternoon. When I got home the flower beds had been watered within about 1/2 of my arrival. W knows my schedule quite well and is about the only person who would know where the hose etc are. The fact that the beds didn't need water (I saw mushrooms growing) is also a conundrum. On the other hand it could have been a helpful neighbour too. Whoever it was didn't take the opportunity to enter the house. W knows that I installed security cameras in the house so that might have been a deterrent (?)

Thanks again.


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Thanks kml - a friend came by who has been having some challenges lately and wanted to chat and my previous post was in the buffer. He's had a major turnaround and wanted to share.

Originally Posted By: kml
First of all - the advice I am about to give you, may need to be modified if you yourself ever cheated on her earlier in the marriage.
Nope - absolutely never. I've adored her from the day we met and never looked outside even though she started pushing me to late last fall which I took as depression and insecurity. Just before BD1 (affair was a month or so old) she pushed "very" hard for me to find someone else using the "you could do better" and "I'm not good enough" lines.

Originally Posted By: kml

1) Focus on YOURSELF. You mentioned looking for a job - do you have one now?

I am quite successful and my W has made a point of being grateful for the sacrifices that I have made for the family. Job / work / success is very important to her both for me and for herself. For her, her job is a large part of her identity. My new job hunt was originally to to have a better work/life balance (at the cost of less money). The current opportunity (fingers crossed) does both. If it falls through I lose nothing though.

Originally Posted By: kml

2) Go out and have fun.
3) Focus on your kids.
4) If finances allow, take a vacation.
5) Go out with friends.
6) Think dog training
7) Make plans for your life AS IF she is not going to return.
8) Painful as this all is, it is a unique opportunity to re-evaluate

Doing my best here. W is currently NC with me as well but while she was still in the house I used to stop her in her spew and ask her what good things, what joy she was having? It didn't work all that well since she struggled to find joy and I got tired of pushing her on it. She should be aware that I'm acting as if she's not going to return but is probably still confident that she could if she so chooses. She "is" aware that there are conditions on that (slight slip in DBing philosophy there by me). I like to think that even though in-house separations are incredibly painful both for the LBS and the WAW/WW that in our case that she was able to see me better and see the better me before she left "to get away from the noise" and theoretically decide on her path. It's mind-reading of the worst sort but I do honestly feel that she was conflicted and torn about her choices when she left. Bizarrely she told me that she almost didn't leave when she did (despite having people and a new place arranged) because I had had a good day and she didn't want to ruin it.

It's interesting kml that you are the first one who picked up what I think is significant that we live in a small village which I think changes the dynamics a lot.

Thanks again for stopping by and your positive message.


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On your Newcomers thread you got a little upset about people constantly telling you what to do about Facebook.

Quote:

I have them monitoring W's Facebook and listening for rumours because that puts a firewall between that and me.


hrnmmm...not really putting up a firewall...more of an alert system which ignroes the mundane sort of "I like cats" memes.

I'm going to suggest that you don't use your SIL's to inform you of anything going on with your wife. Why? Do you like that feeling of your guts getting all twisted up? I don't recalling enjoying that at all.

You are most certainly allowed to have bad days even 6 months later. This is a long process, the idea is to take care of and better yourself in the process.

There is an old mantra around here; the only person you can control is you.

Quote:

I'm seeing an IC who is some help but I don't see her often and she seems to spend more time rolling her eyes about W's antics than guiding me. I have hopes for a better session when I see her tomorrow morning.


Well...stop talking about your damn wife with her. : )
Focus on you that is what the councillor is supposed to be focusing on. Helping you, not helping you figure out her. Otherwise your sort of wasting your time. Bitch about her here, that is what we are for.

You certainly worry a lot about your wife.
And that's really not productive...nothing is going to come from all that energy you are putting into it.

What are you doing for yourself, about yourself?
See because you can control that. You can do something about that.

Crumbs of hope?

I know what you are looking for. Success stories or strategy right?

They are here.

Spend some of that time instead of worrying and look around.

I know the definition of success you are looking for...right now. And they are there...however in time you'll realize that everyone posting to help others around here is a success, just maybe not in the way they first came here looking to be.

It gets better. You'll make great friends here. You'll become a better person.

And you will discover the depths of your strength, will, resolve and patience, far far greater than you ever knew yourself capable of.

Quote:

I wish so much that I could reach out to her and let her know that I am here for her but from what I've read that would be very counter-productive


I wish I had a pony...and to be honest if you used a wish for that I hope that someone would smack you when world peace would be such a much much better wish. : )

You will get through this, and you will be better for it, and maybe, just maybe your wife will suffer through her MLC and you'll still be there to help her put back her shattered life.

This ain't for cowards.

You don't strike me as a coward.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

hrnmmm...not really putting up a firewall...more of an alert system which ignroes the mundane sort of "I like cats" memes.

I'm going to suggest that you don't use your SIL's to inform you of anything going on with your wife. Why? Do you like that feeling of your guts getting all twisted up? I don't recalling enjoying that at all.
I certainly didn't which is the reason I first backed away from following her and then from even looking at her profile. The SIL are under instruction to only let me know if something "significant" happens such as her parading OM around. This is extremely low probability and it was a false alarm on this that pushed me to passing the torch.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Well...stop talking about your damn wife with her. : )
Focus on you that is what the councillor is supposed to be focusing on. Helping you, not helping you figure out her. Otherwise your sort of wasting your time. Bitch about her here, that is what we are for.

That's the plan for tomorrow. I need to get some help with my crisis. I had suicidal thoughts a week and a half ago - not good. They passed in time but it was scary. I had them after BD as well when it looked to be an "answer" to free WW and stop my own pain but I was able to see past the dark. This time it was just dark. Definitely beyond the scope of a peer online forum. I need to find a way to protect myself from those. I hope it was just a "one-off" caused by me taking a pre-planned week's vacation for my anniversary.


Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

What are you doing for yourself, about yourself?
See because you can control that. You can do something about that.
Doing my best for now but my best could be better.
I need to increase my focus at work. I've been slacking off significantly.
I'm spending more time with my own family (brothers + SIL + brand-new nephew) that W had largely cut me off from (long presumably irrelevant story).
I've been calling and talking with S22/D24 regularly (about every 10 days) and have managed 2 calls with each without me bringing up W.
I take myself out to the movies or theatre occasionally.
I have lunch or dinner with good friends occasionally.
I'm slowly cleaning W's things from the house and making it my own.
I'm turning the flower beds and the inside of the house into something to be proud of rather than the dump that it was when W was in charge (cute, but not a good housekeeper)

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Crumbs of hope?

I know what you are looking for. Success stories or strategy right?

They are here.

Good. Actually when I posted about "crumbs of hope" it was what you mention and I'll certainly be reading, but it's also with regards to my own sitch. Difficult to do while being NC so I look at it from the negative/positive. No letters from a L for example. No emptying of the bank account. No removal of W's remaining possessions from the house.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Spend some of that time instead of worrying and look around.
Trying my best Mr. Jack

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

It gets better. You'll make great friends here. You'll become a better person.

And you will discover the depths of your strength, will, resolve and patience, far far greater than you ever knew yourself capable of.

Thanks. I've made good friends on the Newcomer board and I hope that I've been a positive influence for others in crisis. I'm a huge believer in "paying it forward". I'm looking forward to getting to know you and some of the others here on MLC a bit better. I do know though that I am spending too much time on these forums for which I'm eternally grateful to MWD and her team for providing. I am going to try to cut that back / schedule / ration my time a bit so if you see me here too much feel free to give me a whack and tell me to go outside wink

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

I wish I had a pony...and to be honest if you used a wish for that I hope that someone would smack you when world peace would be such a much much better wish. : )

You will get through this, and you will be better for it, and maybe, just maybe your wife will suffer through her MLC and you'll still be there to help her put back her shattered life.

This ain't for cowards.

You don't strike me as a coward.


I used to have a pony ....

I'm definitely not a coward. I "am" a very scared man who is trying to soldier on even with the mud up to my neck. I don't know for sure where I'm going either.

Thanks again.


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AndrewP,

Are you willing to wait 2-5 years for her midlife crisis to pass?
Are you going to be able to stay single for that long?
Are you going to exercise, and stay healthy during that time?
Are you going to go continue to love your wife no matter what and always praise her in front of the kids?
If you answered yes to all those questions there is hope that you will have her back in your arms at some point I believe.

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Are you willing to wait 2-5 years for her midlife crisis to pass?
I really don't know - certainly not 5

Are you going to be able to stay single for that long?
I have no plans otherwise. I'm trying to learn to love myself more and am working on being a single person with grown children.

Are you going to exercise, and stay healthy during that time?
Absolutely. I need to do this for myself

Are you going to go continue to love your wife no matter what and always praise her in front of the kids?
Yes(ish). It depends on how much slime from her I have to endure. At this point I still have a strong love for my wife and don't see that changing. I continue to say positive things about her to people especially our adult children. Even those few that I talk to about my sitch everything is phrased more a concern about her actions but not about anything bad about her as a person. Splitting hairs here? I'm not sure.

If you answered yes to all those questions there is hope that you will have her back in your arms at some point I believe.

Thanks - I will hold this crumb but know that it could crumble to dust.


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Why not 5?

Don't look too far down the road. Pull yourself along a few days at a time.

There is absolutely no need to praise her in front of your kids. Just don't tear her down in front of them. Praising the MLCer always seemed like a selfish tactic with the goal of the word getting back to them, always seemed self serving.

Here in a bit, you're not going to need crumbs, cause you'll be baking your own cake.

2 - 5 years that is just a number. Don't dwell on it.



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I believe that praising your wife is the most important thing that you can do right now, not because it's self serving but because it gives them a sense of stability and it prevents them to suffer and become possibly mentally ill. Ultimately it will teach them that loving their mom is a good and positive thing and that it will never change, no matter how much trouble she is going to give you.
Just my way of seeing things.

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I mean praising her in front of the kids*

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Quote:

and it prevents them to suffer and become possibly mentally ill.


I'd love to see that study. wink



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It's sort of a moot point as Andrew's kids are pretty much grown anyway.



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I agree, his children won't be very traumatized, but my children for instance would become very upset if I started to bash their mother.

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Not hi-jacking here Cid, but I think your confused.

I NEVER said bash her, I NEVER suggested that. I said there isn't a need to praise her.

Big difference and a far cry from bashing her.



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Originally Posted By: Cld
I agree, his children won't be very traumatized, but my children for instance would become very upset if I started to bash their mother.


I know I have addressed this before, but I'll try again.

No one said that if you don't praise, you have to bash. No one on here would ever advise anyone to bash their ex's in front of their kids.

young children, adult, or otherwise.

Going over the top with praise seems fake. respect is pretty much the goal.

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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Why not 5?

Here in a bit, you're not going to need crumbs, cause you'll be baking your own cake.

2 - 5 years that is just a number. Don't dwell on it.

Thanks Jack. You're absolutely right. 5 is just a number as is 2 or even 1 week. None of them actually matter. MWD I believe wrote about the two people walking their own paths to an unknown destination. I think that applies very well here. H@ll - I have enough troubles planning 2 days out right now.

Talking about her to the kids is an odd situation. I've stopped. For D24 she very clearly stated that she now has boundaries that she's working on (she's seeing her own IC) and will not talk about other people. Sadly I think that it was me asking if she'd heard from W and expressing my concern about her that caused that. I never asked though and she never said. S22 was just plain uncomfortable and uncommunicative about it. Both children have stated very plainly to me that they will not "take sides" and I've never asked them to. To the best of my knowledge they don't know about the A but I could be wrong. The closest I've ever come to saying anything is that I was concerned about W having people around her that I felt were "bad influences".

You can skip the next bit about our relationship with the kids if you like.

W has always had an odd relationship with the kids after they moved out. She has an expectation that they will reach out to "her" to talk which rarely happened in the past. (She calls her own mother every Sunday) I have no idea what is going on right now. When she left she did call them and said the same thing to them as she did to me that she was leaving to "escape the noise" - they have taken that as that she doesn't want them reaching out to her. When they did both talk to me about hearing from W which was only for about a week after she left they both said that leading up to her moving out and after that she was unresponsive when the reached out although she did see their Snapchat posts.

I don't know if the kids ever knew/noticed but W has resented them somewhat after they moved out. When D24 left for university she would have panic attacks and need to be visited for a "rescue". I had no problem and would stop by on my way home from work easily but W resented having to go out of her way because of D24's "drama". D24 and I have always been very close and at one point I know that W was jealous of it. W resents S22 because he dropped out of school and even a couple of years later we are still paying his living expenses and rent. She pushed me a few times to give him an ultimatum and I refused saying that if she wanted to cut him off that she had to deliver that message herself but that he had unconditional love and support from me (and later gave her that same message post BD1). I had also suggested that since she and S22 are similar that she spend time with him and work on encouraging him to find work because he would resent/reject anything I said. She never did and I never pushed the issue.

In talking to the kids and other people (ignoring the SIL army who know far more) I have always and for many years been positive and upbeat about W. She is a smart, fun person who is capable of great things. Even after BD when she was doubting that she could make it on her own I sat with her and honestly told her that I believed in her and that she could do "anything" if she set her mind to it. I would often brag to people as well about what a wonderful person and wife she was - and still feel that she was. One of her "complaints" to me was that I had her on a pedestal and that it made her uncomfortable. Mind you, she never said that or looked uncomfortable pre BD.

All of that aside the kids are I feel traumatized by this. S22 more so than D24 who is married and has a busy life of her own. I've been reaching out to them and calling them about every 10 days or so and trying my best to be upbeat and not mentioning W or our problems at all. The closest I'll get to that is talking about my adventures in housekeeping or that I've gotten some more of her stuff tidied up into boxes.

I'm going to have to take a look at cake recipes. I used to do a very good carrot cake.

Thanks again Jack - this feedback really helps me to focus on me and be more firm in dropping the rope.


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Quote:
The SIL are under instruction to only let me know if something "significant" happens such as her parading OM around.

Why and what purpose does it serve YOU to know if she is parading OM around?

Quote:
I'm spending more time with my own family (brothers + SIL + brand-new nephew) that W had largely cut me off from (long presumably irrelevant story).

I could be wrong but I suspect that your W did not hold a gun to your head – hence you cut your family off. I guess my question is….why did YOU cut out your family. Not judging…just wondering…

Quote:
Are you willing to wait 2-5 years for her midlife crisis to pass?

Here my comments on this question on your thread from another poster……

How about living one day at a time and focusing on the moment. The faster that you can begin to do this..the faster things get a bit easier.

Quote:
I believe that praising your wife is the most important thing that you can do right now,

Here is my take on this piece of advice that was given…..

1) Trying or making a conscious effort to go out of your way to praise her is…IMO, a form of manipulation. You might as well walk around with a sign that say….”look at me…I keep telling you how wonderful you are….even though you are with someone else”.
Honestly, you can be civil and nice….I just would not go out of my way to “praise her”

I see you are getting some good advice from that Jack3Beans dude….


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ericmsant2 - yes - Jack is definitely the calm reasonable voice I need to hear here.

Thank you for stopping by - I'll address your questions quickly if I can.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Why and what purpose does it serve YOU to know if she is parading OM around?
I'm not going address this directly. The purpose in having my SIL watch her Facebook feed was a tool to keep me from doing it. I know that they are keeping watch over her and I trust them. That prevents me from using my own worries and protectiveness to hover and stress. It may not be the most orthodox way of detaching but to paraphrase MWD - do what works.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
I could be wrong but I suspect that your W did not hold a gun to your head – hence you cut your family off. I guess my question is….why did YOU cut out your family. Not judging…just wondering…
There was some bad blood many years ago and W always made going to her family a priority. Mine was shunted aside. No gun was used but almost all events for my family she wouldn't go or we would suddenly have other plans. Time passes, we grew apart. Now I'm using the opportunity to reconnect and they've been fabulous.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
How about living one day at a time and focusing on the moment. The faster that you can begin to do this..the faster things get a bit easier.
Doing my best and trying harder each day.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
I just would not go out of my way to “praise her”
This came as a suggestion from another poster - doesn't really apply to me. We're non-contact and while I always had positive things to say about her to others I don't talk about her much to others and don't talk her down. She "is" (under normal circumstances) a wonderful person who I admire.


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AndrewP,

I really hope that you have the courage, the strength and the integrity to remain a stander for the sake of your marriage and your kids.
Everybody else here is already dating after the divorce is finalized.
I am the only one who is 100% committed to the marriage "until death do us part" and to the children.
We can support each other during hard times and ultimately we will succeed, we only have to believe that we will.
Be prepared, she might start an Affair, she might act like a teenager and she might cause you all kinds of problems, this is common during MLC, but I put it that way and I am the only one who thinks this way here. My children do cause me problems as well, they disrespect me sometimes, they kick me and do the opposite of what I am asking them to do, now should I give up on them because of that? No way! And for the same reason I will never give up on their mother especially now that she seems to have this temporary mental illness called midlife crisis.
That's what Michele Weiner Davis says as well here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHvV55IpAxk

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Quote:

Everybody else here is already dating after the divorce is finalized.
I am the only one who is 100% committed to the marriage "until death do us part" and to the children.


Dafaq are you talking about Willis?

Is English your first language? I ask because this would clear up some misunderstanding if it isn't.

If it is, then your confused misinformation should not be passed off as facts.



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No english is not my first language, Jack, Italian is my first one.
Did I make a mistake?

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A little.

Not everyone here is dating after their divorce was finalized.

You ARE NOT the only one 100% committed to their marriage.

You are disparaging other posters here who went through hell and came through it better and come back here to help others get through this.

You are arrogant to think that you are the only one here committed to their marriage. This is so egotistical that it is obscene here. And dismissive of other people here as well.

This is a cocky attitude that your way is the only way...

You like statistics...

statistically speaking your attitude in this is going to sabotage your DBing efforts, that after 11 years of posting here and trying to help others.

Be a little bit more humble here for a start.



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Jack please let me know which males have been waiting here for more than 3 years for instance and I will follow their thread.

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Originally Posted By: Cld
Jack please let me know which males have been waiting here for more than 3 years for instance and I will follow their thread.

Can I ask how many years are you going to wait?

FTR I have been here over 7 years and my ex is still in crisis.


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And Job has been here 17 years and her ex is also still in crisis.


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One of the things that I hope to learn more about here is how to deal more effectively with W's MLC if she ever comes back. I think I need to make sure for myself that there is a clear separation between the MLC and the A which is just a byproduct / symptom of that.

One reason that I'm here is from what I've read even if W comes back next week (highly unlikely) she may "cycle" and have another A or engage in other behaviours at any time.

Cadet / Jack - is that an appropriate statement?


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP
One reason that I'm here is from what I've read even if W comes back next week (highly unlikely) she may "cycle" and have another A or engage in other behaviours at any time.

Cadet / Jack - is that an appropriate statement?




I'm not Cadet or Jack, but I will take a spin on your bike...

Yes, it is entirely possible that she could potentially cycle for a long time.

MLC isn't a one and done thing. Cycles do not move fluidly and do not go as easy as stage 1, stage 2, etc..

Stages can jump around and fester for years....

There are many stories her about the MLCer coming home, and things are great for a while, and then they cycle back through, and it is Deja-Vu, all over again...

Raine ...

Courageous Wife...


Just to name a couple...

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I agree with Mach1 and a few other things he(Mach) taught me was that you need to think about being an LBS as a learning session for reconciliation.

If you do not learn your lessons now then YOU will not be able to reconcile because YOU will not be ready.

The MLC'er that returns is very broken and needs to be lead the right way through the end of the crisis.
What does that mean?
It means that we still need to stay Detached and let them have their crisis on their own even though they are trying to return.

I also think what you are describing is what is otherwise known as a touch and go.
Those touch and goes are the basis for return.
The longer and more often they occur the better chance for
a reconciliation.


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I agree w/the posters on what they've posted about the touch and go scenarios. I would like to add that even though they may return home, they will still have approximately 18-24 months settling down back into their own skin. This is the hardest part for us because we begin to look for them to be normal and start expecting things to get back to the way it use to be. It won't happen that way. Why? Because we both will have changed and it's a brand new relationship and needs to be treated that way.

Also, we have had a few return home (too soon) and haven't completed their necessary work to heal. They return, continue to have issues and act out and then eventually, they are back out the door and generally the crisis becomes a bit worse the second time around.

So, the best thing to do is leave them alone, allow them the time they need to complete their crisis and live your life to the fullest. There is no harm in leaving the door ajar, if and when they wake up. If they want to reconcile, they will do everything they humanly can to prove that they want the relationship right down to agreeing to be transparent in all the things that they do, i.e., emails, phone records, etc. It's up to them to prove to you that they want you back, i.e., in other words they need to earn your trust. Ultimately, the decision will be yours if you decide to reconcile or move forward...but that's a good ways down the road.

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Quote:

One of the things that I hope to learn more about here is how to deal more effectively with W's MLC if she ever comes back. I think I need to make sure for myself that there is a clear separation between the MLC and the A which is just a byproduct / symptom of that.

One reason that I'm here is from what I've read even if W comes back next week (highly unlikely) she may "cycle" and have another A or engage in other behaviours at any time.


That is a very wise statement Andrew.

When my wife came back she was very fragile and it was NOT easy, she wasn't completely finished with her MLC.

If you wife came back or does in the next few weeks I would be very skeptical and keep DBing and protect myself emotionally. Sadly MLC is "usually" a long process. Be wary of quick fixes.



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Originally Posted By: job
So, the best thing to do is leave them alone, allow them the time they need to complete their crisis and live your life to the fullest. There is no harm in leaving the door ajar, if and when they wake up. If they want to reconcile, they will do everything they humanly can to prove that they want the relationship right down to agreeing to be transparent in all the things that they do, i.e., emails, phone records, etc. It's up to them to prove to you that they want you back, i.e., in other words they need to earn your trust. Ultimately, the decision will be yours if you decide to reconcile or move forward...but that's a good ways down the road.

Thank you so much to everyone who responded.

The door is certainly ajar and I believe she is keeping an eye on me and presumably that door for whatever reason I can't say.

I started typing a big novel about my confusion and all of the unanswered questions I have that are perhaps unanswerable. I wish that there was some way that I could talk to "someone" who knows all about these situations, go through the histories, ask my questions and have them pat my hand and go "there there - here's the script that she's following that leads back to you". But just like wishing for a pony earlier in this thread I need to stop wishing and keep doing for myself.

One of my absolute favourite quotes even before this is from the author Terry Pratchett who put these words into one of his character's mouth.
"If you trust in yourself. . .and believe in your dreams. . .and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."


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Andrew,
Ask your questions here. That is what the forum is for. No question is stupid or silly. You won't know unless you ask. Now, we may not have all of the answers, but I bet we may have 90% of them. LOL!

BTW, yes, your w is watching you. She's watching to see if the changes you are making are real and permanent. You don't have to tell her you love her, she knows that. You don't have to tell her that you are leaving the door ajar. She will sense it as she walks her life's path.

You will get sick and tired of us saying "keep the focus on you, dig deeper for patience, leave her alone and give her space, you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her, and most of all continue to move forward". I am very well known for reminding posters to keep the focus on themselves and I have plenty of shovels in stock for digging for patience.

So, make a list of your questions and don't be afraid to ask them. We will be more than happy to try to answer them to the best of our ability.


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One of my favorite quotes:

"We are what we do, when it matters the most."

Nothing is stopping you from going through those histories around here.

As for the script....its almost standardized. We all had/have unique situations that sort of all sound alike. The difference is the ending.

Would you walk through hell for your wife?

Would you walk through hell for you wife even if you didn't know she would be waiting for you on the other side?

The best anyone here can do is say "there, there," this is the script where you come out of this better not bitter. : ) I forget which dork uses that as his signature line. ; )



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Well - you asked so here goes. AndrewP's list of things that confuse the crap out of him that probably don't really matter. These are based largely on mind-reading, speculation, and a lot of obsessively close observation and research by someone who is good at that sort of thing - but is still wrong a bunch of the time.

There is one piece of perhaps important information that's not in my summary at the beginning but it might be significant. It is very much mind reading and is based on W's repeated mention to me that she never intended to cheat and that it was an "accident". My understanding is that OM (who was chasing her) was a kind and supportive "safe" friend who W opened up to after she "decided" she was done with our MR last summer and was very depressed. I believe that she truly fell in love with him early in the new year. Up until then she was a kind and loving wife and other than thinking for several years she was depressed in part because of peri-menopause I had no clue of any problems. When the A started she became much more depressed and distant but still tried hard to be loving even after BD1 when she said she was leaving until BD2 when I discovered the A and released the alien within her. OM is in no way an exciting boy toy with a lavish lifestyle. Although he is somewhat better off than we are it's not by a large order of magnitude so she's not after him for excitement or money. W on the other hand while I love her dearly and think she's beautiful is in reality a short, fat, middle-aged woman with health and growing mobility problems who has no real interest in sex. I'm sure things were torrid at the beginning just like they were for us 28 years ago but W can't sustain that especially given her pain issues.

There was also a BD2.1 on June 23rd when I gave her a letter that I had sweated blood into where I talked about the love and respect that I had for her and asked her to reconcile. It also said that if she refused to reconcile that I would seek legal advice on ending our M. Prior to getting that letter she was cocky, confident and arrogant. From that date on she seemed subdued, scared and very depressed.

Question time. What they mostly boil down to is that W appears to be acting remorseful and guilty and terrified and not at all committed to OM or leaving. To me it seems much more extreme than just callously keeping me as a Plan B that she hasn't cut me free.

Please be gentle and yes I know that I shouldn't focus on these things and I really try not to - but you "did" ask.

- After W told me she was leaving and both before and after I discovered her A I gave her multiple opportunities to leave even suggesting that we cancel an insurance policy on me that would not be necessary if she left to provide her with seed money. She was horrified and pushed aggressively against that or any other step I suggested that was irreversible. On the other hand even after BD1 she was talking about bringing tradesmen in to work on the house and getting our wills updated (which I put a stop to because she had said she was leaving).

- Why did W play the martyr moving herself out of the MBR after BD2 making her life complex and painful when she could have done whatever she wanted and easily manipulated me. She knows she can do this and has before to get what she wants. This follows none of the scripts as I understand them. A trivial example of martyrdom was her toothbrush. We have 2 bathrooms one in the MBR and one downstairs. Every evening for 4 months W would timidly knock on the MBR door and ask if it was OK for her to go through to clean her teeth. She would then (generally) walk through looking straight ahead, do her thing and then leave either looking straight ahead or away from me. Usually she would politely return my good-nights. On rare occasions she would engage me in conversation and be cheerful but that was maybe just an "up" day.

- W never showed any anger at me or blamed me for anything even when she was at a phase where she was so very proud and scornful. Even when she really tried she could come up with no answer on why she wanted out of the marriage other than that she didn't want us to end up like her parents, old and bickering at each other all the time. Again - not to any script out there that I've seen. 27 years is a lot of history that could be re-written.

- After BD2 when the A was discovered W became progressively more honest and transparent with me with regards to her movements etc around any of the times that I could have expected to see her even WRT to OM which she knew caused me great pain and seemed to pain her too.

- Why did W wait for months and months before getting a proper meeting with a L and only did so after she moved out? She did initially push me to see one saying that she already had (was free county general advice). My theory on this was she wanted me to push her out. After she left she saw a L (and knew I was ready with D papers) why has nothing come out of that in over a month?

- Now that she's moved out, why is she still keeping our separation quiet? She is I believe still wearing not just her wedding band but also her engagement diamond, eternity band and family ring. I've not had confirmation on that since shortly after she left though. She certainly hasn't for example updated her "relationship status" and when talking to my barber she clearly identified herself as AndrewP's wife - which she would have done pre-BD - when it was completely un-necessary to make that connection.

- Why has she not cut me or my family off from her Facebook account? A couple of mouse-clicks and no more in-laws or husband information showing her what she's leaving behind.

- On the other side why have her relatives who know about the A not cut me off either? Some of them "really" don't like me.

- Not a question but on my side I have asked everyone who knows (and W knows that they know) to act as if everything is normal on Facebook but to leave her alone. I don't want her to feel that we're "throwing her out".

- Up to June 4th she would see OM quite regularly and on that day "something" happened that made her very angry. After that I actually thought the A was over because she never "seemed" to be taking opportunities to be with OM. Why not? It would have been so easy for her to do? She was still seeing him but there were no further overnight visits nor her long "walks" which were her prior cover story.

- Even now that she's moved out originally I was still somewhat monitoring her movements and she seemed to rarely take obvious advantage of chances to be with OM. It's almost as if they're just dating.

- Why is OM - who according to W on BD2 was infatuated with her and very very serious not being more open about the A and introducing her to his kids etc. My mind-reading tells me that this hasn't happened because W in talking about OM's son (who works for the family business delivering to her store) has a definite line between the two (long story about why I believe this). Speculation and mind-reading tells me that she has told him to keep it secret too.

- When W left the house was systematically stripped of things of value (I believe much of that to be her brother's doing) and of stuff that W actually needed. It was done in a great hurry by someone who isn't organized at the best of times. The day after she left she did come back on my suggestion for waffles and the toaster (I don't use them). But she's not come back for anything else. It would be easy - she knows my schedule and I'm not there much of the time. There are things that she's surely felt the lack of as well as important papers she would need for a L and she has now seen that I've packed up a lot of her stuff and put it in the enclosed front porch.

- W told me that she would continue to be part of the family finances and deposit her pay into our joint bank account but hasn't - no big shock there. But she also has "never" spent any money out of that account to support her A activities or set up her new life even though she knows that there are saving set aside for emergencies and vacation that she could use without hurting me at all. The amount of her pocket money that must have gone to pay for gas is staggering.

- Trivial perhaps but a couple of days ago "someone" who could only have been W came to the house and watered the flower beds but didn't go inside. Mind-reading tells me that it was a false start of some sort.

- A bit over a week ago I noticed on Facebook that it appeared that one of W's friends had outed her about OM - she hadn't. I texted W brusquely about this for clarification before I over-reacted and rather than ignoring it, telling me to go to hell etc immediately went into overdrive on damage control. Her response text to me also indicated that she felt that only people that I had told and identified to her knew about the A and no-one else (which is not true). But again it implies that she is keeping a tight lid on the A and OM.

- When we talked and she told me she was moving out she was horrified first that I already had the D papers filled out and even more horrified that they listed adultery as the grounds. She expressed a lot of concern that it would then be public knowledge that she had cheated.

- One theory that I have is that W might feel that if she "runs out the clock" for 1 year that she can get a no-fault divorce and her A would still be a "secret". If that were the case though she would have made the separation public already, been happy when the date I gave her from my L was BD2 and not move-out day and started openly seeing OM.

So - what my mind-reading, over-analysis and speculation boils down to is that W is stuck in something she never intended, not committed to the A, not really committed to leaving and having no clue as to what she should do now. In my heart I yearn to reach out to her and let her know that she can come back and be welcome but that's the wrong thing for me to do so I don't.

Please - and I repeat Please - no 2X4s. I'm going back to not speculating, mind-reading and trying to build my own independent life based on an assumption that W is never coming back. But sometimes I do wish - which is why I'm still "standing".

Thank you.


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Andrew,

Your questions are very good ones and hopefully others will chime in to answer them for you. I'd like to take some time this evening and review them before I give you my thoughts tomorrow. I do think that you've figured out some of the rationale, if you want to call it that, in some cases.

I don't usually hand out 2X4's when I see someone is trying to learn and have a better understanding of what may or may not be going on. However, I do hand out 2X4's when I have to continue to repeat myself over and over again after 12 threads. LOL!


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Sorry - one last one while I have my get out of 2×4 pass.

Why hasn't OM given up and moved on? This has got to be tough on him too.


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PPS I wish the editor’s button worked.

BD1 was somewhat accidental. W got very drunk on vacation and told me she was leaving. She was very serious and the words seemed rehearsed but she didn't remember doing it later and was horrified two days later when I asked for confirmation. I believe that she might have delayed telling me she was leaving indefinitely otherwise.


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Holy crap that's a flood gate of questions.

You have to realize that a lot of he answers are going to speculative at best, right?

Like Job, I need some time to answer them.

And wait...

Who said no 2x4's? I didn't sign up for that. wink



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Quote:

- After W told me she was leaving and both before and after I discovered her A I gave her multiple opportunities to leave even suggesting that we cancel an insurance policy on me that would not be necessary if she left to provide her with seed money. She was horrified and pushed aggressively against that or any other step I suggested that was irreversible. On the other hand even after BD1 she was talking about bringing tradesmen in to work on the house and getting our wills updated (which I put a stop to because she had said she was leaving).


Irreversible. She isn't a WAW, if she was she wouldn't care. But as an MLCer its all about the confusion, things set in stone tend to scare them. Change? Change is great as long as there are options.

Quote:

- Why did W play the martyr moving herself out of the MBR after BD2 making her life complex and painful when she could have done whatever she wanted and easily manipulated me. She knows she can do this and has before to get what she wants. This follows none of the scripts as I understand them. A trivial example of martyrdom was her toothbrush. We have 2 bathrooms one in the MBR and one downstairs. Every evening for 4 months W would timidly knock on the MBR door and ask if it was OK for her to go through to clean her teeth. She would then (generally) walk through looking straight ahead, do her thing and then leave either looking straight ahead or away from me. Usually she would politely return my good-nights. On rare occasions she would engage me in conversation and be cheerful but that was maybe just an "up" day.


In her shoes would you rather be the martyr, or the cold hearted bitch who is making her husbands life hellish? One is easier to live with.

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- W never showed any anger at me or blamed me for anything even when she was at a phase where she was so very proud and scornful. Even when she really tried she could come up with no answer on why she wanted out of the marriage other than that she didn't want us to end up like her parents, old and bickering at each other all the time. Again - not to any script out there that I've seen. 27 years is a lot of history that could be re-written.


A crappy reason not to be married is usually in the script. If not exactly the same in all cases. Are you sure she hasn't rewritten anything? I find that odd even without MLC, everyone remembers events very differently.

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- After BD2 when the A was discovered W became progressively more honest and transparent with me with regards to her movements etc around any of the times that I could have expected to see her even WRT to OM which she knew caused me great pain and seemed to pain her too.


Mine was more honest and transparent, except when she wasn't being more honest and transparent. Its easier to trust a liar than a mostly honest person. You always expect the liar to lie, know what I mean here?

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- Why did W wait for months and months before getting a proper meeting with a L and only did so after she moved out? She did initially push me to see one saying that she already had (was free county general advice). My theory on this was she wanted me to push her out. After she left she saw a L (and knew I was ready with D papers) why has nothing come out of that in over a month?


Did she get a L AFTER you did? Anything I say about this is speculation. I have no idea why. She hasn't pursued anythig with Lawyer, as far as you know, doesn't mean nothing is happening, however...if she really isn't doing anything with lawyer, I'm going with my irreversible comment from above.

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- Now that she's moved out, why is she still keeping our separation quiet? She is I believe still wearing not just her wedding band but also her engagement diamond, eternity band and family ring. I've not had confirmation on that since shortly after she left though. She certainly hasn't for example updated her "relationship status" and when talking to my barber she clearly identified herself as AndrewP's wife - which she would have done pre-BD - when it was completely un-necessary to make that connection.


I'd see this as a sign of hope Andrew. I mean if she was done? She'd be done right? No rings, telling everyone about it. I'd look at this as one of those crumbs you want.

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- Why has she not cut me or my family off from her Facebook account? A couple of mouse-clicks and no more in-laws or husband information showing her what she's leaving behind.


See above.

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- On the other side why have her relatives who know about the A not cut me off either? Some of them "really" don't like me.


As for the in-laws? Who cares, if they hate you why haven't YOU cut them off? Or is this a keep your enemies close type of thing...maybe they are doing it for the same reasons you are...appearances, mayhaps?

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- Not a question but on my side I have asked everyone who knows (and W knows that they know) to act as if everything is normal on Facebook but to leave her alone. I don't want her to feel that we're "throwing her out".


Not a bad idea.

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- Up to June 4th she would see OM quite regularly and on that day "something" happened that made her very angry. After that I actually thought the A was over because she never "seemed" to be taking opportunities to be with OM. Why not? It would have been so easy for her to do? She was still seeing him but there were no further overnight visits nor her long "walks" which were her prior cover story.


Is this the same OM who still wants to be married to his wife or am I confusing this douchenozzle with another poster's OM?
Who knows why, lets just take this as a good sign ok?

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- Even now that she's moved out originally I was still somewhat monitoring her movements and she seemed to rarely take obvious advantage of chances to be with OM. It's almost as if they're just dating.


Stop, monitoring her...
Yeah I know, its hard and you'll have like a crap ton of 'good and excellent' reasons why you think its a great idea...
It isn't. You haven't looking at a vehicle tracking device yet have you...you did...didn't you. Ok don't get it.

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- Why is OM - who according to W on BD2 was infatuated with her and very very serious not being more open about the A and introducing her to his kids etc. My mind-reading tells me that this hasn't happened because W in talking about OM's son (who works for the family business delivering to her store) has a definite line between the two (long story about why I believe this). Speculation and mind-reading tells me that she has told him to keep it secret too.


You live in a small village right?
You are going to go crazy trying to figure out why she does what she does, your going to crazy faster trying to figure out why he does what he does. Here are the facts, he slept with you wife. Why? I don't know. Maybe they were talking about circuses and felt a connection since they both love circuses and then one thing just lead to another and suddenly the story about seeing the monkeys having sex just sort of broke open the love dam. That wasn't a 2x4, that was an attempt at being funny. It's impossible to answer that question.

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- When W left the house was systematically stripped of things of value (I believe much of that to be her brother's doing) and of stuff that W actually needed. It was done in a great hurry by someone who isn't organized at the best of times. The day after she left she did come back on my suggestion for waffles and the toaster (I don't use them). But she's not come back for anything else. It would be easy - she knows my schedule and I'm not there much of the time. There are things that she's surely felt the lack of as well as important papers she would need for a L and she has now seen that I've packed up a lot of her stuff and put it in the enclosed front porch.


I sort of just dropped off her shite at her apartment...boy did that pi55 her off! smile
Change, some of it she wants some of it she doesn't. Maybe she wants a new start? Maybe she hopes to come back.
Take some of these questions as 'good' signs ok? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But right now you don't know...so in order to help you with your goals...good signs, until proven otherwise...PROVEN OTHERWISE, not thought about otherwise.

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- W told me that she would continue to be part of the family finances and deposit her pay into our joint bank account but hasn't - no big shock there. But she also has "never" spent any money out of that account to support her A activities or set up her new life even though she knows that there are saving set aside for emergencies and vacation that she could use without hurting me at all. The amount of her pocket money that must have gone to pay for gas is staggering.


See above.

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- Trivial perhaps but a couple of days ago "someone" who could only have been W came to the house and watered the flower beds but didn't go inside. Mind-reading tells me that it was a false start of some sort.


You posted that it could have been the neighbors originally but why?

If it was her doing nice things, that is cool. You could simply post on FB, came home the other day and someone watered my flowers, that was really nice.

OMG I can't believe I suggested that...why not, if she bites she bites if she doesn't...you're no worse off.

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- A bit over a week ago I noticed on Facebook that it appeared that one of W's friends had outed her about OM - she hadn't. I texted W brusquely about this for clarification before I over-reacted and rather than ignoring it, telling me to go to hell etc immediately went into overdrive on damage control. Her response text to me also indicated that she felt that only people that I had told and identified to her knew about the A and no-one else (which is not true). But again it implies that she is keeping a tight lid on the A and OM.


Was that a question?

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- When we talked and she told me she was moving out she was horrified first that I already had the D papers filled out and even more horrified that they listed adultery as the grounds. She expressed a lot of concern that it would then be public knowledge that she had cheated.


Wouldn't you if the shoe was on the other foot? And before you say I never would...no you wouldn't but try wearing her shoes sometimes.

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- One theory that I have is that W might feel that if she "runs out the clock" for 1 year that she can get a no-fault divorce and her A would still be a "secret". If that were the case though she would have made the separation public already, been happy when the date I gave her from my L was BD2 and not move-out day and started openly seeing OM.


Good sign.

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So - what my mind-reading, over-analysis and speculation boils down to is that W is stuck in something she never intended, not committed to the A, not really committed to leaving and having no clue as to what she should do now. In my heart I yearn to reach out to her and let her know that she can come back and be welcome but that's the wrong thing for me to do so I don't.


Sort of like she is confused and doesn't know what to do or how to get out of it.

Yeah...

Confusion MLC watchword.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

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this is the script where you come out of this better not bitter. : ) I forget which dork uses that as his signature line. ; )

He would not happen to be a pink tutu wearing Rican would he? smile

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OM is in no way an exciting boy toy with a lavish lifestyle. Although he is somewhat better off than we are it's not by a large order of magnitude so she's not after him for excitement or money[/quote}
I suspect that she may not even fully understand why she is after him. That said, separate yourself from this for a second…. Do YOU want to be full of excitement? What or rather who do YOU want to be? Are you okay with who YOU are right now? If not, then what changes do you really want to make for YOU. {Note: you may have already answered this in a previous thread, if so, I apologize for asking the question again)
[quote]What they mostly boil down to is that W appears to be acting remorseful and guilty and terrified and not at all committed to OM or leaving. To me it seems much more extreme than just callously keeping me as a Plan B that she hasn't cut me free.

Have you considered that maybe she is trying to deal with a life crisis and the crazy feelings that she may be experiencing. I know that when I was dealing with my sitch I thought my ex was plain out nasty, vile, and vicious. As I started to step away from the emotional rollercoaster that is living with an MLCer. I started being able to look outside of MY pain and sympathize with what SHE must have gone through. As hard as it may be sometime…..when you can step out of your own pain, when you can stop staring at what you perceive she is doing to YOU…..you can then see things a bit differently.

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- After W told me she was leaving and both before and after I discovered her A I gave her multiple opportunities to leave even suggesting that we cancel an insurance policy on me that would not be necessary if she left to provide her with seed money. She was horrified and pushed aggressively against that or any other step I suggested that was irreversible. On the other hand even after BD1 she was talking about bringing tradesmen in to work on the house and getting our wills updated (which I put a stop to because she had said she was leaving).

Funny….right after bomb drop my ex asked if we should remodel the bathrooms. Look dude, chances are that she is confused and not in her right mind.

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- Why did W play the martyr moving herself out of the MBR after BD2 making her life complex and painful when she could have done whatever she wanted and easily manipulated me. She knows she can do this and has before to get what she wants. This follows none of the scripts as I understand them. A trivial example of martyrdom was her toothbrush. We have 2 bathrooms one in the MBR and one downstairs. Every evening for 4 months W would timidly knock on the MBR door and ask if it was OK for her to go through to clean her teeth. She would then (generally) walk through looking straight ahead, do her thing and then leave either looking straight ahead or away from me. Usually she would politely return my good-nights. On rare occasions she would engage me in conversation and be cheerful but that was maybe just an "up" day.

Honestly, who knows why she did this. Maybe it was to keep the peace. Maybe because she wanted to make you feel guilty.
Consider this….
You are about to fight Jack in a boxing match. Jack is a large man. He was Heavy Weight Champion on the world. You are very scared. Your emotions are all over the place. You want to “win”…do you….
a. Come out swinging knowing that you may get knocked out OR
b. Do you turnaround and when Jack turns….catch him with a left hook that he did not see coming.
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- W never showed any anger at me or blamed me for anything even when she was at a phase where she was so very proud and scornful. Even when she really tried she could come up with no answer on why she wanted out of the marriage other than that she didn't want us to end up like her parents, old and bickering at each other all the time. Again - not to any script out there that I've seen. 27 years is a lot of history that could be re-written.

Maybe she never felt heard in the M and that is why she is not blaming you. Personally, I would bet that at some point you will get the rewriting of history. I have not seen a scenario where this does not happen. Are you listening to her when she speaks?

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- After BD2 when the A was discovered W became progressively more honest and transparent with me with regards to her movements etc around any of the times that I could have expected to see her even WRT to OM which she knew caused me great pain and seemed to pain her too.

She is showing YOU what she wants you to see. Trust me…what she does not want you to know YOU will not know. Oh….and do yourself a favor do not go looking, searching or snooping.

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- Why did W wait for months and months before getting a proper meeting with a L and only did so after she moved out? She did initially push me to see one saying that she already had (was free county general advice). My theory on this was she wanted me to push her out. After she left she saw a L (and knew I was ready with D papers) why has nothing come out of that in over a month?

1) How do you know that she did not meet with a L without your knowledge. Mine did and denied it.
2) The legal process of a divorce is just that a LEGAL process. Attny will advice clients based on their legal strategy. Maybe just maybe that was the advice she received from an atty.
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- Now that she's moved out, why is she still keeping our separation quiet? She is I believe still wearing not just her wedding band but also her engagement diamond, eternity band and family ring. I've not had confirmation on that since shortly after she left though. She certainly hasn't for example updated her "relationship status" and when talking to my barber she clearly identified herself as AndrewP's wife - which she would have done pre-BD - when it was completely un-necessary to make that connection.

Mine kept her’s on for a while and did not change her relationship status until several months AFTER we divorced. Some MLCers want to maintain the appearance that everything is fine. It is part of the mask they wear.

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- Why has she not cut me or my family off from her Facebook account? A couple of mouse-clicks and no more in-laws or husband information showing her what she's leaving behind.

Why should she? Does she post pics of OM? Does she post pics with him and her on vaca? She probably has no need to. At the same time…stop for a second and consider the confusion that this is causing in YOU. MLCers LOVE to create confusion.

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- On the other side why have her relatives who know about the A not cut me off either? Some of them "really" don't like me.

It could be imagine, it could be for any children that are involved. It could be at her request…in part to keep you confused.

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- Up to June 4th she would see OM quite regularly and on that day "something" happened that made her very angry. After that I actually thought the A was over because she never "seemed" to be taking opportunities to be with OM. Why not? It would have been so easy for her to do? She was still seeing him but there were no further overnight visits nor her long "walks" which were her prior cover story.

Maybe at the advice of her atty. Maybe he was busy. Who knows.
My ex did the same. It appeared as though the R was over…but really it was not. They just both decided to keep it a bit more low key. Can you guess what this resulted in? Answer: more confusion.

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- Why is OM - who according to W on BD2 was infatuated with her and very very serious not being more open about the A and introducing her to his kids etc. My mind-reading tells me that this hasn't happened because W in talking about OM's son (who works for the family business delivering to her store) has a definite line between the two (long story about why I believe this). Speculation and mind-reading tells me that she has told him to keep it secret too.


I’ll play your wife here….

Option 1 – Flaunt the A to everyone including the kids and be known as the homewreaker and cheater
Or
Option 2 – Keep it quiet and slowly make it public once the D is final.

Ummmm….I’ll take option 2 please.
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- When W left the house was systematically stripped of things of value (I believe much of that to be her brother's doing) and of stuff that W actually needed. It was done in a great hurry by someone who isn't organized at the best of times. The day after she left she did come back on my suggestion for waffles and the toaster (I don't use them). But she's not come back for anything else. It would be easy - she knows my schedule and I'm not there much of the time. There are things that she's surely felt the lack of as well as important papers she would need for a L and she has now seen that I've packed up a lot of her stuff and put it in the enclosed front porch.

Maybe she is too busy living her life. Maybe she wants to start a new life with no memories of the old one.

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- W told me that she would continue to be part of the family finances and deposit her pay into our joint bank account but hasn't - no big shock there. But she also has "never" spent any money out of that account to support her A activities or set up her new life even though she knows that there are saving set aside for emergencies and vacation that she could use without hurting me at all. The amount of her pocket money that must have gone to pay for gas is staggering.

This could very well be a legal move. In my state, you do not want to “change” financial practices i.e. what you deposit into a joint bill paying account, until after a settlement is reached.

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- Trivial perhaps but a couple of days ago "someone" who could only have been W came to the house and watered the flower beds but didn't go inside. Mind-reading tells me that it was a false start of some sort.

Probably not but I suspect YOU really want it to be a false start.

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- When we talked and she told me she was moving out she was horrified first that I already had the D papers filled out and even more horrified that they listed adultery as the grounds. She expressed a lot of concern that it would then be public knowledge that she had cheated.

Could be another legal move OR could be her trying to maintain her imagine. Think about it…who the heck want to it to be public record that they cheated.

You have asked for no 2x4’s – I can respect that.

Reading your post it appears that you are still in the “look and over analyze everything” stage. I get it. It is normal. Here are few bullets that I would like to think about….

1) This too shall pass
2) At the end of the day, believe it or not YOU and YOU alone determine when your connection with her ends. Not her.
3) This journey is about YOU – not HER.
4) Detachment is really YOUR friend
5) You can go through this and end up BITTER or BETTER – the choice is YOURS
6) FEAR has a tendency to hold us back…to keep a person stuck. Facing YOUR fear is the best thing you can do.
7) Figure out what it is that YOU really want. Not what you FEAR. NOT what is easy. Nope – what YOU want.
8) TIME is really YOUR friend. Use it wisely.
9) Allowing someone to live their choices – is love.
10) You can play the victim or you can cannot – YOU choose. Just remember, you are a victim if YOU CHOOSE to be.
11) Actions speak louder than words.

I do not post much these days….most of the vets on here know how to reach me…so if you need me, just ask someone to get a hold of me.

Peace brother!


"The difficulties of Life are intended to make us BETTER,not bitter".
"Fear is a prison, where you are the jailer. FREE YOURSELF!"
"Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B." - Jack3Beans
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Why hasn't OM given up and moved on? This has got to be tough on him too
Wrong question. Why did that 'douchenozzle' as Jack so eloquently put it (Hi Jack!) smile sleep with another man's wife in the first place? And now you want to apply logic to his actions? C'mon - that's going to drive you crazy. Besides, he's nobody to care about. He's a troubled individual to begin with and nothing but a bug on the windshield.

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BD1 was somewhat accidental. W got very drunk on vacation and told me she was leaving. She was very serious and the words seemed rehearsed but she didn't remember doing it later and was horrified two days later when I asked for confirmation. I believe that she might have delayed telling me she was leaving indefinitely otherwise.
Yep, goes with the script. They rehearse the words, plan the day, hour, minute, weather, what they'll wear, etc... It's tough for them to throw all those years and dreams away. Don't kid yourself. It takes a lot of effort even if on the outside we wonder why go to all that trouble...

Having been in your shoes at one point (haven't we all on this board?) I can tell you Jack gave you great advice in not wondering why, not discerning the tea leaves, and not jumping to conclusions. This journey is not just about her. YOU matter too and you have to figure out how you're going to handle the inevitable emotional fall out you'll face yourself. The road you're walking is not an easy one, my friend. And the emotions will come in waves. Are you preparing for that? If so, how?

AJ


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK
Put the glass down...
"Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world
Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
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Hi Andrew - it looks like your questions have already been answered and answered with great time and consideration!

However, I feel I can speak a bit about the confusion you are witnessing in your w. I believe you are the one who mentioned that your situation seems unlike the others that are present here in MLC? However, I see some similarities between your sitch and mine.

Like you, I was bombed twice as well. And my h was VERY keen on keeping up appearances. He wanted to get an apartment, 'live life' and find women who looked at him 'meaningfully.' He categorically told me he was seeking women who would look at him 'meaningfully.' This was his reason for ending the marriage. When I asked if he planned to introduce our children to said woman/women he gave a resounding 'no.' So I asked how 'meaningful' is this relationship, then? And how can any woman of quality carry on with a married man and look at him meaningfully? He had no answers. He was so confused. Some of what he said he did not recall saying days later.

Oh, and in this grand plan he would still be home every night for dinner! Talk about keeping up appearances!! On Saturdays he would sleep around at the apartment and return before the kids awoke. One of my kids is old enough now that he sometimes is up 'til midnight and yet my h seemed to think no one would be curious about all this?!? He was crazy!!!

After BD2 I took my rings off. He saw it and told me we should not remove rings. He insisted we wear rings.

There are sooooooo many weird things I have seen. I am only picking the cream of the crop. One more thing: on Easter 2015 my h reminded me he was "done with me" via text from the downstairs bedroom he had recreated into his childhood bedroom. I was in the kitchen cooking dinner. 20 minutes later? He emerged and cheerfully asked if I wanted a glass of wine. I literally started researching brain tumors that night.

He has on many occasions said the bond with me was strong and yet voiced tremendous confliction.

My point? There are MLCers keen on keeping up appearances. I have one! It seems to be a rarity, but it's possible. Anything is fair game in MLC.

Whatever logic there is to this, is within her and the criss crossed wires of her brain.

Last thing. DIfferent ages appear in MLC, right? You can see your spouse emerge as a teen, flashes of a child and even a young, young girl! I have seen my h as a little boy on several occasions. A few weeks ago, at dinner, he smushed down his mashed potatoes and drew in a face with his fork. He is 47. So that person who passed into the bedroom, meekly, to brush her teeth? That could have been a little girl. Sometimes what you are seeing is her in another time of her life. (By the way, prior to this happening to me I would not have been the sort to believe in MLC. I would have thought it was just a 'label' giving people an excuse to behave poorly.)

However, with the oddities, it's best to note it, scratch your head, maybe post it here for others to learn from (people are ALWAYS looking for similar sitches) but always then focus on making you the best version of yourself. She's a footnote you are the plot.

Welcome to the place you never wanted to be. You are amongst a great group of supportive people.


Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13
BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Thank you Jack, eric and AJM for your responses. I hope it's readable but here are my answers to your own questions. Now to get my lunch made for tomorrow when I'll also be having dinner with S22 and not talking about W or telling sad stories about how I'm struggling

This is making me feel better than I have in a long while - not because I have "answers" or a "plan to reunite" but because I've heard from people who care and who were kind enough to take their own time to give back to me.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

A crappy reason not to be married is usually in the script. If not exactly the same in all cases. Are you sure she hasn't rewritten anything? I find that odd even without MLC, everyone remembers events very differently.
I can't be sure of anything especially what she was telling others but the blame wagon never came to call here.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Did she get a L AFTER you did? Anything I say about this is speculation. I have no idea why. She hasn't pursued anythig with Lawyer, as far as you know, doesn't mean nothing is happening, however...if she really isn't doing anything with lawyer, I'm going with my irreversible comment from above.
Right after BD2 she told me that she had already seen a L and that she had an appt to see them again. She appeared shocked when I pointed out to her that she needed to disclose the A to the L. Because of this and other advice I found the best L I could and met with them in early June. W knew a couple of days later when the cheque cleared and responded "good". On the pre-moveout night a month later she admitted that the L she had seen was just some sort of free County resource and not an actual L. She said then that she had an app with a real L the next week.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

why haven't YOU cut them off? Or is this a keep your enemies close type of thing...maybe they are doing it for the same reasons you are...appearances, mayhaps?
Absolutely to both.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Is this the same OM who still wants to be married to his wife or am I confusing this douchenozzle with another poster's OM?

No - this douchenozzle lost his W to brain cancer about a year before he started chasing after my W.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Stop, monitoring her...
Got whacked with the 2X4s, did that, got whacked a few more times for good measure.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
You live in a small village right? You are going to go crazy trying to figure out why she does what she does, your going to crazy faster trying to figure out why he does what he does. Here are the facts, he slept with you wife. Why? I don't know. Maybe they were talking about circuses and felt a connection since they both love circuses and then one thing just lead to another and suddenly the story about seeing the monkeys having sex just sort of broke open the love dam. That wasn't a 2x4, that was an attempt at being funny.

He lives in a larger centre about an hour away from here and there would be little or no social stigma to showing up with a new flame on his arm. Oh - and I did LOL

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
You could simply post on FB, came home the other day and someone watered my flowers, that was really nice.

OMG I can't believe I suggested that...why not, if she bites she bites if she doesn't...you're no worse off.
Yeah - I'm not about to bait that bear even it if might not bite.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
try wearing her shoes sometimes.
She did leave a couple of pairs ....

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Are you okay with who YOU are right now? If not, then what changes do you really want to make for YOU. {Note: you may have already answered this in a previous thread, if so, I apologize for asking the question again)
It hasn't been asked in quite this way. Yes - I'm proud of who I am and the man I'm becoming is just a more confident version of that same man.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Have you considered that maybe she is trying to deal with a life crisis and the crazy feelings that she may be experiencing.
Absolutely - that's why I'm so very worried about her both now and "if" she comes back and the real work starts.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Maybe she never felt heard in the M and that is why she is not blaming you. Personally, I would bet that at some point you will get the rewriting of history. I have not seen a scenario where this does not happen. Are you listening to her when she speaks?
Communication was always a huge issue for us. Any time over the years and even after BD I tried to talk about "us" or some of the problems I personally was having (mild seasonal depression) she would loudly and agressively change the subject. One of the things we'll have to figure out how to change "if" given the chance.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

1) How do you know that she did not meet with a L without your knowledge. Mine did and denied it.
2) The legal process of a divorce is just that a LEGAL process. Attny will advice clients based on their legal strategy. Maybe just maybe that was the advice she received from an atty.
Possible but really doubtful. She was so massively unprepared and shocked with the information I had on move-out day.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Maybe at the advice of her atty. Maybe he was busy. Who knows.
My ex did the same. It appeared as though the R was over…but really it was not. They just both decided to keep it a bit more low key. Can you guess what this resulted in? Answer: more confusion.
Possibly right on any or all counts. Doesn't matter at the end of the day

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
This could very well be a legal move. In my state, you do not want to “change” financial practices i.e. what you deposit into a joint bill paying account, until after a settlement is reached.
She stopped both depositing and spending after she moved out. My L suggested keeping everything going as normal.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Reading your post it appears that you are still in the “look and over analyze everything” stage. I get it. It is normal. Here are few bullets that I would like to think about….

1) This too shall pass
2) At the end of the day, believe it or not YOU and YOU alone determine when your connection with her ends. Not her.
3) This journey is about YOU – not HER.
4) Detachment is really YOUR friend
5) You can go through this and end up BITTER or BETTER – the choice is YOURS
6) FEAR has a tendency to hold us back…to keep a person stuck. Facing YOUR fear is the best thing you can do.
7) Figure out what it is that YOU really want. Not what you FEAR. NOT what is easy. Nope – what YOU want.
8) TIME is really YOUR friend. Use it wisely.
9) Allowing someone to live their choices – is love.
10) You can play the victim or you can cannot – YOU choose. Just remember, you are a victim if YOU CHOOSE to be.
11) Actions speak louder than words.

I do not post much these days….most of the vets on here know how to reach me…so if you need me, just ask someone to get a hold of me.

Peace brother!
Thanks so much. I think I'm almost past the "over analyze everything" bit but was given the chance to have one last fling at it.

Originally Posted By: AJM
They rehearse the words, plan the day, hour, minute, weather, what they'll wear, etc... It's tough for them to throw all those years and dreams away. Don't kid yourself. It takes a lot of effort even if on the outside we wonder why go to all that trouble...

Having been in your shoes at one point (haven't we all on this board?) I can tell you Jack gave you great advice in not wondering why, not discerning the tea leaves, and not jumping to conclusions. This journey is not just about her. YOU matter too and you have to figure out how you're going to handle the inevitable emotional fall out you'll face yourself. The road you're walking is not an easy one, my friend. And the emotions will come in waves. Are you preparing for that? If so, how?
Just trying to do the best I can. This place is a great comfort because I can also help others here too and be helped in turn. My IC is making some progress on me too and getting out and about is helping too.


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Originally Posted By: HaWho
I literally started researching brain tumors that night.
I hope you don't mind but I had a big LOL on that one.

Originally Posted By: HaWho
focus on making you the best version of yourself. She's a footnote you are the plot.

Welcome to the place you never wanted to be. You are amongst a great group of supportive people.
Absolutely. I'm doing my best as a newcomer to give back as well and am grateful for people like you and others who have helped me on my own path out of the fog.


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And one last thing; just curious, did one of her parents lead a double life?


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I am going to add in some other info that may or may not be helpful.

MLC is driven by depression, their are two basic types
Overt which is obvious depression.
And covert which is masked or hidden depression.
So when she does nothing it is possible that the depression is speaking or keeping her from acting.
IE the lawyer.

And as HaWho has said the different children you may see in her are classic signs of MLC, and also complicate each story when different ages are encountered.

There are different stages that each child must go through to grow up.
So depending how far back the trama is that they must fix may influence how long it takes them to grow up.

I will leave it at that for now.


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Hi Andrew!

I also experienced the two bomb punch. Your situation is very similar to some long ago posters that posted here.

Your wife, in my opinion, is not a WAW. She's exhibiting confusion and depression. Depression is the main ingredient help to make up the mix for MLC. As for day-to-day goes, she operates purely on emotions. You can't rationalize w/someone who emotionally charged.

Your wife isn't sure she wants to actually end the marriage w/you. She became extremely good friends w/the OM because she felt she needed someone to talk to, to lean on and yes, he was providing attention to her as well as stroking her ego. She enjoyed what attention he was providing to her. Being w/a younger man boosted her sagging ego even though he's not all that great in your opinion. To her, he was her trusted and loyal friend. He basically became her crutch and generally they get involved w/people who are the opposite of the LBS. So, I'm not surprised they basically "latched" on to each other. I'm sure she did feel guilty and remorseful for what she was doing.

Even though you gave your wife many opportunities to leave, she was afraid to do so in the beginning. She wasn't ready to leave the comfort of her home and the stability that you provided. Yes, they do tend to make plans to have homes renovated, make plans for trips, etc. (even at this stage) because they are confused and they want to keep one toe in your pond and the other in the om's pond. In other words, she wants to keep her options open in case she's not happy w/the cold, cruel world out there.

When BD2 took place, your wife was stronger in her thinking and was seriously thinking that she could make it on her own and began pushing you to see a lawyer. Why wait until she moved out? Confusion and she wasn't sure what she wanted when she lived w/you. In her mind, after she moved out, the only way to actually move on and truly be free of you and the relationship was to see a lawyer. BTW, once they are absolutely sure they want to separate/divorce, they do become angry w/us. They need justification for what they are doing and feeling the way that they are. We become the authority figures that they need to break free of. To them, we are the problem, hence the angry is spewed toward us.

Once they move out, they generally do not share this info w/family and friends because they don't want to hear that they are making the biggest mistake of their lives. They don't want to be questioned/challenged about their decisions. As for the om, the one she's seeing may not be the only one that she dates. As she moves along the path, she may opt to date others.

As she walks the path, if you have contact w/her, don't be shocked by her appearance. She may lose weight, change her hairstyle and color, tattoos, piercings, her taste in music may change, i.e., in other words, she will become the opposite of the woman you knew. You may even witness some different personalities, i.e., as HaWho mentioned. This is all part of going back to a time in her childhood where she was emotionally stunted by an authority figure. She needs to go back there, face those issues, accept that she was not at fault and can't change what happened and hopefully grow up. This will take a long time to happen.

The MLC can be very concerned about appearances to others. She doesn't want the "adultery" word placed in the divorce papers even if it's what she did. She wants to look like the good gal and you are the bad guy. Also, some MLCers tend to push and shove for a divorce and then drag their heels on everything which makes it far more frustrating for the LBS. Generally when this happens the LBS will continue to provide documents/data to the lawyers and begin to push on for the divorce after a lengthy period. Some LBS will let things simmer and wait it out and then eventually file themselves. It all depends upon the damage the MLCer creates while orbiting the earth.

Do they really want a divorce? Sometimes they do, but most just want to be left alone to experience life and what they think that they missed out at a younger age. In their minds, they think we will stay right where they left us and be able to return at some point and pick up where they left off w/us. They tend to forget the ages of their children (another common symptom)because their clocks are very slow and they don't realize that the years are flying by.

Andrew, MLC is a very unique challenge for both the MLCer and the LBS. We are the uninvited guest on their trip and unfortunately, we were never told what to expect. Both parties are tossed on the boat of self discovery. I know that you are trying to analyze and understand what is going on. We all do that for a long period of time. Take this time to read all you can on MLC and visit the many threads that are here. The more you understand that depression drives the MLC train, the better you will understand that it's not about you, but all about her and what she needs to do to find herself.

There is one more thing I would like to touch on. Therapy is great if they go, but they will only cherry pick what they want from the sessions. Some will only go once or twice just to appease the LBS. Some will continue on w/therapy, but that generally happens very late in the crisis when they are a bit more emotionally stable. Others will seek professional help and obtain AD's only to take them for a short period of time because they aren't working the way the MLCer thought they should. AD's will help just a bit because they take the edge off the depression just a bit, but they won't fix them.

FYI...It is not unusual for your spouse to enter MLC, navigate the crisis and either begin to come out or has completed the crisis and then discovers that his/her spouse has entered a MLC. We've had several cases of this happen over the last 17 years.

This journey is not a sprint, it's a marathon. Dig deep for patience and always, always try to remember...you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her.

Try to keep the focus on you and btw, don't worry about what your inlaws think about you or the situation. Blood is thicker than water and until they witness their daughter's behavior long term, they won't get it.

Continue to post and definitely continue to ask questions.

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Thank you yet again everyone for the thoughtful responses and to those who have silently read.

Originally Posted By: HaWho
And one last thing; just curious, did one of her parents lead a double life?

Absolutely. It turns out that her father was somewhat of a legend among his co-workers for being wayward. There is at least one love child that we know about which was a major issue for W and her siblings when their father almost died a couple of years ago. Even now in his mid 80s my FIL is constantly hitting on women. My MIL suffered through it since it was one of those "open secrets".

W always made a point of being disgusted by the waywardness of her father (and both of her siblings). She would go on at length pre A about them and any other waywards she happened to know and proclaim with pride how faithful she had been.

Originally Posted By: job
Being w/a younger man boosted her sagging ego even though he's not all that great in your opinion. To her, he was her trusted and loyal friend. He basically became her crutch and generally they get involved w/people who are the opposite of the LBS.

He's definitely (as far as I know) nothing like me but as far as I'm aware is a quiet responsible semi-retired business person with limited interests. I'm also a quiet responsible person but with wide ranging interests. He's also at least in his early 60s so about 10 years older than us. Not sure if it's relevant or not but when he buried his W a couple of years ago after she died of brain cancer it was in a single plot as if he didn't intend to spend eternity next to her (mind reading!) No clue if he had been faithful to her or not and not relevant to me.


Originally Posted By: job
When BD2 took place, your wife was stronger in her thinking and was seriously thinking that she could make it on her own and began pushing you to see a lawyer.

Actually BD2 came as a shock to her. A few days after that because she told me very clearly that she was leaving I did up a budget that broke out who would pay for what and emailed it to her. She saw the email at work and came home an absolute wreck and broke down saying she couldn't make it on her own. I sat with her and told her that I had confidence she could do whatever she set her mind to. She then went and spent the night with OM (said she needed to be "alone" to think) and the talk of leaving stopped for a while.

Originally Posted By: job
In her mind, after she moved out, the only way to actually move on and truly be free of you and the relationship was to see a lawyer. BTW, once they are absolutely sure they want to separate/divorce, they do become angry w/us.
I suspect she was unhappy about the L meeting and some of the hard truths she would have been told which is why (to the best of my mind-reading) nothing has happened after it. I have an unprovable theory that she was somewhat pushed into leaving by her brother and some of her friends as well as into seeing a L - not that it matters.

Originally Posted By: job
As for the om, the one she's seeing may not be the only one that she dates. As she moves along the path, she may opt to date others.
Yep - trying to prepare myself for that.

Originally Posted By: job
The MLC can be very concerned about appearances to others. She doesn't want the "adultery" word placed in the divorce papers even if it's what she did. She wants to look like the good gal and you are the bad guy.
And here I am being a "good guy".

Originally Posted By: job
Do they really want a divorce? Sometimes they do, but most just want to be left alone to experience life and what they think that they missed out at a younger age. In their minds, they think we will stay right where they left us and be able to return at some point and pick up where they left off w/us. They tend to forget the ages of their children (another common symptom)because their clocks are very slow and they don't realize that the years are flying by.
This is where none of us, probably even her have any clue where she is on this journey. Pre BD1 (I'm leaving) she did get a tattoo (one small discrete one), started walking obsessively and hung out with a "younger" (late 30s / early 40s) crowd who were very into partying, drinking wine and trash talking their husbands. She also got very frustrated / angry about some things that had been very important to her such as volunteering with a youth group. Between BD1 and BD2 she went into a massive depression and spent a "lot" of time with a couple of her friends including spending a weekend with one where she came back even more depressed than she left. After BD2 (me finding out about OM) her walking decreased dramatically although her weight loss continued somewhat but many of the other behaviours stopped except for her increasing her drinking alone at home (a couple of bottles of wine / week) - she used to "never" drink alone - was terrified of it. She was heavily depressed for a few weeks but then her "cockiness" increased up to an "I'm on top of the world" level up to BD2.1 (when I gave her the "please reconcile" letter). After BD2.1 the depression got a lot worse and she began having real problems coping with day to day things both at home and at work. After she moved out - I'm not sure. There were a couple of what I considered "cry for help" posts on Facebook that I didn't respond to and then I shut down looking because of the pain it caused me to see her suffering. From what her best friend said to me (unsolicited) last weekend and from what her boss told me a couple of weeks before (I asked how she was doing) she is struggling with all aspects of her life right now.

Originally Posted By: job
The more you understand that depression drives the MLC train, the better you will understand that it's not about you, but all about her and what she needs to do to find herself.
Irrelevant perhaps but this story helped me a lot at the beginning of my own journey. It's stolen from one of W and my favourite authors, Terry Pratchett. In his story two main characters are trapped in a hall of mirrors. They are told that the only escape they have is to find the "real" one. The one character immediately starts running to and fro searching. The other looks down at her own boots and says "this one'.

Originally Posted By: job
There is one more thing I would like to touch on. Therapy is great if they go, but they will only cherry pick what they want from the sessions.
She's rejected therapy all along but perhaps because I suggested it. I do know that she did a "lot" of research into local therapy options - it seems that most of her friends have therapists.

Originally Posted By: job
FYI...It is not unusual for your spouse to enter MLC, navigate the crisis and either begin to come out or has completed the crisis and then discovers that his/her spouse has entered a MLC.
I've become worried about this - I know that I'm in a delicate state and worry about making rash decisions. I haven't yet but I'm keeping a close watch on myself and I think that my SIL are too.

Originally Posted By: job
This journey is not a sprint, it's a marathon. Dig deep for patience and always, always try to remember...you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her.

Try to keep the focus on you and btw, don't worry about what your inlaws think about you or the situation. Blood is thicker than water and until they witness their daughter's behavior long term, they won't get it.

Continue to post and definitely continue to ask questions.
One of the toughest things for many of us LBH is the feeling of helplessness thinking that we should be "doing" something, anything to "fix" this. It's a tough lesson to learn that the "fix" is to leave it alone and let it heal on its own.


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Originally Posted By: AndrewP

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Stop, monitoring her...
Got whacked with the 2X4s, did that, got whacked a few more times for good measure.


: ) THAT wasn't a 2x4.

Repeatedly saying the same thing isn't a whack. Wanting to reach through the computer and strangle me is a 2x4. Ask Eric. : )

About the 2x4's they are a tool to hopefully wake someone up to bad behaviour on their part.

IF I call you fat, and you are not fat, or are but don't care, it won't hurt you, no sting.

IF I call you fat and you are fat and you don't like being fat, it'll hurt and sting.

IF something stings, you owe it to yourself to determine why and hopefully do something about it.


About the whole wanting to keep tabs on your wife...or husband for others here.

We all did it, provision being that maybe a few very small few didn't, but enough of us did that it might as well be all.

We tell you not to because we KNOW the pain it WILL bring...not might bring...but WILL.

You really don't need to know the details of what she is doing, or even who. This doesn't help you with doing your own thing and just causes set backs. Your job right now, is to weather out her MLC.

Knowledge isn't always power, sometimes knowledge is just pain.

None of that was a 2x4, it was just advice with the reasoning behind it.

Hope your day is a great one Andrew.

You have a lot of information to digest here, a lot of good advice backed by a lot of first hand experience.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Knowledge isn't always power, sometimes knowledge is just pain.


Hmmmm - I heard that!! smile smile smile


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Andrew,

Like the others, I wanted to think about this as well..

I also want you to know I haven't read anyone else's responses...let's see what happens..

Originally Posted By: AndrewP


- After W told me she was leaving and both before and after I discovered her A I gave her multiple opportunities to leave even suggesting that we cancel an insurance policy on me that would not be necessary if she left to provide her with seed money. She was horrified and pushed aggressively against that or any other step I suggested that was irreversible. On the other hand even after BD1 she was talking about bringing tradesmen in to work on the house and getting our wills updated (which I put a stop to because she had said she was leaving).


It is actually natural. It is simply a part of the confusion of not really being able to commit to one particular path.



Originally Posted By: Andrew
- Why did W play the martyr moving herself out of the MBR after BD2 making her life complex and painful when she could have done whatever she wanted and easily manipulated me. She knows she can do this and has before to get what she wants. This follows none of the scripts as I understand them. A trivial example of martyrdom was her toothbrush. We have 2 bathrooms one in the MBR and one downstairs. Every evening for 4 months W would timidly knock on the MBR door and ask if it was OK for her to go through to clean her teeth. She would then (generally) walk through looking straight ahead, do her thing and then leave either looking straight ahead or away from me. Usually she would politely return my good-nights. On rare occasions she would engage me in conversation and be cheerful but that was maybe just an "up" day.


My X moved out of the bedroom but left his stuff in the master bath. Until I said something about it. Actually, I posted here about it and then he moved his stuff. Which tells me he was reading here. Watching what I was doing. Which is something they do.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
- W never showed any anger at me or blamed me for anything even when she was at a phase where she was so very proud and scornful. Even when she really tried she could come up with no answer on why she wanted out of the marriage other than that she didn't want us to end up like her parents, old and bickering at each other all the time. Again - not to any script out there that I've seen. 27 years is a lot of history that could be re-written.


I believe that the amount of anger and rewriting we actually hear and see depends on how much you are challenging them and pushing for answers.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
- After BD2 when the A was discovered W became progressively more honest and transparent with me with regards to her movements etc around any of the times that I could have expected to see her even WRT to OM which she knew caused me great pain and seemed to pain her too.


They begin to feel since you know, they have nothing to hide. This isn't as common as the deceptions or being told "it's none of your business" however it is still possible.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
Why did W wait for months and months before getting a proper meeting with a L and only did so after she moved out? She did initially push me to see one saying that she already had (was free county general advice). My theory on this was she wanted me to push her out. After she left she saw a L (and knew I was ready with D papers) why has nothing come out of that in over a month?


Seeing a lawyer is a commitment to an act. Again part of the confusion and refusal to face reality.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
Now that she's moved out, why is she still keeping our separation quiet? She is I believe still wearing not just her wedding band but also her engagement diamond, eternity band and family ring. I've not had confirmation on that since shortly after she left though. She certainly hasn't for example updated her "relationship status" and when talking to my barber she clearly identified herself as AndrewP's wife - which she would have done pre-BD - when it was completely un-necessary to make that connection.


See above. Although if she has "new friends", they are more than likely aware that she is single.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
- Up to June 4th she would see OM quite regularly and on that day "something" happened that made her very angry. After that I actually thought the A was over because she never "seemed" to be taking opportunities to be with OM. Why not? It would have been so easy for her to do? She was still seeing him but there were no further overnight visits nor her long "walks" which were her prior cover story.

- Even now that she's moved out originally I was still somewhat monitoring her movements and she seemed to rarely take obvious advantage of chances to be with OM. It's almost as if they're just dating.


They probably are just dating. Parts of the things they say are true, like needing time and space, and parts not so much.


Originally Posted By: Andrew
Why is OM - who according to W on BD2 was infatuated with her and very very serious not being more open about the A and introducing her to his kids etc. My mind-reading tells me that this hasn't happened because W in talking about OM's son (who works for the family business delivering to her store) has a definite line between the two (long story about why I believe this). Speculation and mind-reading tells me that she has told him to keep it secret too.


You really don't know what is happening in their relationship. Although again, it may not be a serious as the monster that you are imagining in your head.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
When W left the house was systematically stripped of things of value (I believe much of that to be her brother's doing) and of stuff that W actually needed. It was done in a great hurry by someone who isn't organized at the best of times. The day after she left she did come back on my suggestion for waffles and the toaster (I don't use them). But she's not come back for anything else. It would be easy - she knows my schedule and I'm not there much of the time. There are things that she's surely felt the lack of as well as important papers she would need for a L and she has now seen that I've packed up a lot of her stuff and put it in the enclosed front porch.


The day may come when she asks for those things. It is often done without much thought. That leads to the idea that maybe she left stuff because she might someday also return.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
W told me that she would continue to be part of the family finances and deposit her pay into our joint bank account but hasn't - no big shock there. But she also has "never" spent any money out of that account to support her A activities or set up her new life even though she knows that there are saving set aside for emergencies and vacation that she could use without hurting me at all. The amount of her pocket money that must have gone to pay for gas is staggering.


My X didn't destroy finances either although he did have his own money. Just another bump on the rollercoaster ride.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
Trivial perhaps but a couple of days ago "someone" who could only have been W came to the house and watered the flower beds but didn't go inside. Mind-reading tells me that it was a false start of some sort.


I wouldn't think a false start. I actually have a friend who used to post here who had similar things happen to his rosebushes each year. Was it his W or was it his neighbor? He never asked anyone if they did it so no one knows.

If it was her...it was simply her tending to something that she probably did in the past. And just another thing for you to scratch your head about.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
A bit over a week ago I noticed on Facebook that it appeared that one of W's friends had outed her about OM - she hadn't. I texted W brusquely about this for clarification before I over-reacted and rather than ignoring it, telling me to go to hell etc immediately went into overdrive on damage control. Her response text to me also indicated that she felt that only people that I had told and identified to her knew about the A and no-one else (which is not true). But again it implies that she is keeping a tight lid on the A and OM.


If everyone knows...she is going to look like the bad guy in the relationship. Often they simply don't want that.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
When we talked and she told me she was moving out she was horrified first that I already had the D papers filled out and even more horrified that they listed adultery as the grounds. She expressed a lot of concern that it would then be public knowledge that she had cheated.


This bolded part answers many of your questions.

Originally Posted By: Andrew
One theory that I have is that W might feel that if she "runs out the clock" for 1 year that she can get a no-fault divorce and her A would still be a "secret". If that were the case though she would have made the separation public already, been happy when the date I gave her from my L was BD2 and not move-out day and started openly seeing OM.


Interesting theory. Too much worry about her thinking and trying to make it make sense.

Here is the thing...

You are thinking about how YOU would do things. We think we know what our spouses are thinking because we know them so well, but I promise you that no one really knows the thought process that occurs in someone else's head.



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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
About the whole wanting to keep tabs on your wife...or husband for others here.

We all did it, provision being that maybe a few very small few didn't, but enough of us did that it might as well be all.

We tell you not to because we KNOW the pain it WILL bring...not might bring...but WILL.

You really don't need to know the details of what she is doing, or even who. This doesn't help you with doing your own thing and just causes set backs. Your job right now, is to weather out her MLC.

Knowledge isn't always power, sometimes knowledge is just pain.

None of that was a 2x4, it was just advice with the reasoning behind it.

Hope your day is a great one Andrew.

You have a lot of information to digest here, a lot of good advice backed by a lot of first hand experience.
Jack - thank you so much again. The message is heard loud and clear. For my own sanity I've stopped monitoring her in any fashion more than a week ago. Sadly it took asking my relatively uninvolved SILs to keep an eye on her Facebook activity and ears open for rumours to do that but we each find our own coping mechanisms. I still find myself tempted and have to distract myself and remind myself that others are watching her for me and that I need to be watching myself.


cat04 - thank you for doing a fresh read-through without the other answers biasing you. A lot of what you said agrees with others but you raised a point or two that other's didn't so I'll respond to that part.

Originally Posted By: cat04
I believe that the amount of anger and rewriting we actually hear and see depends on how much you are challenging them and pushing for answers.
And I never really did challenge her much. Between BD1 and BD2 I would have some episodes of sobbing at her and begging her to tell me why she felt she had to leave but that was about it. After finding this place and reading MWD's excellent book I didn't push for any answers. W also made it plain to me several times that she didn't "have" any answers and was trying to figure that out herself. She did say that she envied my ability to write and speak. I hope she's not found me here and seen the drivel that comes off my keyboard wink Although there were times before she left that she'd act in a way that could indicate that she had followed me. I do believe that she is monitoring me very closely <rambling justification for this statement redacted>.

Originally Posted By: cat04
See above. Although if she has "new friends", they are more than likely aware that she is single.
No new friends as far as I am aware - it's a small village and she's already friends with almost everybody.

Originally Posted By: cat04
Too much worry about her thinking and trying to make it make sense.

Here is the thing...

You are thinking about how YOU would do things. We think we know what our spouses are thinking because we know them so well, but I promise you that no one really knows the thought process that occurs in someone else's head.
Boy - I've really learned that a lot especially in the last few days thanks to the kind responses here on the MLC forum.


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Andrew,

I did it not so I wouldn't be biased but because I wanted you to see how similar the responses are.

Sadly,or not, we all said basically the same thing in different ways.

The major differences, are based on our individual experiences and beliefs.

We each have our own story with common threads. No two MLC's are alike. Because no two people are alike.

One other thought on the anger...

It is possible that the amount of anger also comes from how hard they think they have to be in order to push us away. Sometimes because of us and sometimes because of them.

MLC never comes out of the blue. They marinade for a long time before we ever get the bomb.

So...

Are you ready to start your work yet or do you have more questions?

I have finished baking my brain in psychology courses for the day now I am off to work.

Have a great afternoon!



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Originally Posted By: cat04
Are you ready to start your work yet or do you have more questions?

I have finished baking my brain in psychology courses for the day now I am off to work.

Have a great afternoon!

cat04 - the work is already started and I'm working on me. I can't do anything about W except prepare myself for a future that may or may not include her and I know that I still have a long way to go no matter which twist the path takes.

Thanks again so much and have a great afternoon yourself.


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Andrew,
You've gotten some excellent advice from the posters. One thing that I want to mention, MLCers tend to focus on fun things, activities, gambling, porn, and even volunteering. These things take their mind off of what they are doing and are considered distractions. When they are along, at night, when the world is quiet...this is when their minds continue working over time and they can't quiet those thoughts down. This is one of the reasons that they can't sleep.

Andrew, I also want to point out that not all MLCers come from broken homes. Some were molested and abused as children and not necessarily by their parents. Others were made to feel inferior to their siblings, etc. The list can go on and on.

I do think you are getting a good handle on things and now realize that you can't fix and/or help her. Many of us are fixers and like to take care of things...the crisis is one that we can't fix. If we attempt to snatch them out of the crisis, the next time around will be far worse. You can't rush the process. They have travel the path on their own, at their own pace in order to heal properly.

You are very correct in saying that you can prepare yourself for the future that may or may not include her. The only person you can control is yourself and how you deal w/life.

I hope that you have some plans for the weekend. You need a break from the MLC madness, even if it is for an hour or two.


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I spent a few hours reading through some threads. These snippets - taken completely without context really struck home with me. I hope others are able to find them meaningful too.
Originally Posted By: AmyC
I know what you're doing. You want to construct a timeline to give yourself some reasonable idea as to how far she is into this thing. PLEASE do yourself a favor, SCREW THE TIMELINE IDEA.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
I had every single person absolutely convinced that I knew what I was doing. I had so deluded myself, that everyone else fell right into line supporting me.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
Bless his heart, for 2 years he stood and fought like hell to save us. It was not until he let go, that I started my painfully slow journey back.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
Why do you think she is so distant? She CAN'T deal with your emotions AND her own, Jazz. Her own OVERWHELM her. That's why she's out there, man. That's why she's lost.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
If you don't humble yourself at this time, if you let pride make you bitter and vengeful, she will never feel able to ask your forgiveness. And THAT ALONE IS PARAMOUNT to her coming out of MLC a better and stronger person.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
While she's lost, you have work of your own to do.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
You must know, though, if you decide that come hell or high water, you are going to stand for your marriage, rest assured that making that decision will be the last simple thing you do.
Hell and high water will both come.
They'll come often and sometimes they'll even come together before you have time to take a deep breath.

As long as you know that and still decide to stand, it is possible to do it quietly, effectively and with grace.
It will take more than you know you have within yourself.
You will have to dig deep and eat a lot of crow.

There is plenty of room here at the table.

;\)

Make a list.
Write down your reasons to stand.
You know the basic ones; kids, vows before God, etc....
Now look closer at the very heart of your relationship.
There you will find the reasons that will enable you to endure.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
And for the record, I wasn't overly emotional or bitchy, although there were certainly times...
My husband said it best when he looked at me one day from across the kitchen and said "You're as cold as ice".

To this day, I remember that moment.

I'd become the tinman.

Originally Posted By: beatrice
The ML Journey doesn't always work through to a 'good' ending, sadly. That is why it is so important that we move on with our own lives and become the person we want to be, even though we didn't choose it! It is a tough on-going process that still has the pwer to sadden me at times.

Originally Posted By: AJM
I'd rather be LBS than MLC any day of the week.

Originally Posted By: Cadet
If it was so easy to just go to a dating website and get your spouse back then MWD would change the TOS and sell dates to LBS's.

Originally Posted By: SunnyBurst
It's amazing all these symptoms are also Bi-Polar symptoms.

Originally Posted By: Cadet
Yes it is my experience that most MLC'ers are very selfish.
And most LBS's are codependent conflict avoiding enablers.
So it really was a marriage where the two people fit together perfectly.
Until that doesn't work anymore.
Then explosion bomb drop and MLC.

Originally Posted By: short1
Many LBS have anger, I know I still have to watch it. But just having anger is not an excuse to lash out.

Originally Posted By: AmyC
it takes balls the size of Texas to look at our LBSs and admit we were wrong - all wrong- and to ask your forgiveness when it is all we can do to stand upright in the face of the realization of what we have done.


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How was your weekend Andrew?



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Andrew

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cat04 - the work is already started and I'm working on me. I can't do anything about W except prepare myself for a future that may or may not include her and I know that I still have a long way to go no matter which twist the path takes.

So what is the work that you have started? What are things that you need to work on? Oh, and mindreading is one that I know you are already working on. What else?


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Jack - thanks for asking. Overall it was pretty good. I went for a nice walk in the woods and got some good pictures. I journalled a bit on my Newcomers thread. A bunch of people have been supportive of me over there too and so that's where the gossipy stuff goes.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2700252#Post2700252

There is one thing that I wanted to check in here on MLC about though which I will probably get whacked with a 2X4 or 20 on.

I wrote W an email this morning. My excuse was some updates to our joint finances which was the bulk of the letter. As everyone knows I am very worried about her and from what I've read here I may have cause to be. I know that I can't fix her but worry a lot that she may think that she's "burned her boats" as far as coming home goes. My packing up her things, disconnecting her from our Netflix account (she has the password now), and the anger I showed her and her BFF would have been clear signals that I might have had enough. She also I feel wants to be the victim and martyr here and has in the past pushed me to kick her out and to find someone new. I also worry that she's been waiting for "me" to reach out to "her". She also I believe (mind-reading!) wants to not trust me. So - I added a bit on to the already un-necessary letter. I told her that if she wanted to talk about anything that I would be happy to listen. Since I feel that she has some paranoia going on I told her that I have no secrets from her and that she can ask about anything. I also said that while I was rearranging the house to "accommodate a life spent alone" that I was being careful with "her" stuff. I concluded with "Please know that you can continue to trust me and I work every day to be deserving of that trust." A small PS was added with an apology "for being abrupt with you when I was confronted with something that caused me a great deal of fear for you." (when it looked like her friend had outed her about her A).

I feel better for having sent that email. I'm giving her her space and distance but reminding her that the path home is still there if she wants it but that the next move needs to be her's. I'm also making it clear that I am working on building a life without her.

She probably already "knows" all of this and perhaps I've set her "back" knowing that she can continue to do whatever she wants. I still clearly see the terrified woman who I turned my back on and walked away from that morning 6 weeks ago letting her go her own path. From her BFF I know that she continues to be confused and is struggling. I feel better knowing that I've now done all that is humanly possible for her and now need to get back to doing for myself.


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Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
So what is the work that you have started? What are things that you need to work on? Oh, and mindreading is one that I know you are already working on. What else?
Eric - thanks for stopping by. I still haven't gotten the hang of Minute Rice but haven't starved to death yet - my weight loss continues though.

The sort of things you are interested in though - I'm continuing to reconnect with my own family, trying to improve my focus at work and last weekend I overcame my reluctance to go to a particular nature area because it was one of W's alibi stories for meeting with OM. I had a nice walk there and got some great photos. It feels good to have that part of the world that I enjoy no longer be a "taboo" place for me.

My garden and the house are doing fairly well which is a source of pride for me. Next weekend I am planning on a canoe trip with family and strangers with a potluck dinner later.

As you may see from my last post I "slipped up" this morning and contacted W but now that I've done that I feel better knowing that I've done all that I can and the next steps are clearly up to her. I can now continue to work on detaching knowing that I've done all that I can. Perhaps it's like a junkie needing that one "fix" to get them over a bad day. The need to contact her has been festering in me for a few weeks and I hope I've gotten it out of my system.

I am very grateful to this forum for letting me ask my questions and get such thoughtful answers even if some of the answer were that there were no answers. That helps a lot again because I now know what I "can" know as well as what I "can't" and am trying to move on with that information and not letting it spin out of control as I try to find rational answers for the irrational reality.

To quote Chief Inspector Charles Dreyfus "Every day and in every way, I'm getting better and better". It's not quite true but I think progress is being made on my own slow road to recovery and out of the fog. It's going to be a long trip for both W and I.


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No 2x4's man.

I mean you're not doing it every day...right?
If it made you feel good then ok.

Quote:

I can't fix her but worry a lot that she may think that she's "burned her boats" as far as coming home goes.


And what if she is? How are you going to stop her? How will you prevent this? How will you control...wait a second...wait a second...

Control...

Who can you control in all of this?

MLC is a mess you clean up afterward, not being able to prevent the mess from happening.

Quote:

I'm also making it clear that I am working on building a life without her.


Message sent, I'd suggest not hammering this point home any more than you already have and there is no need to so in the immediate future...maybe a year or so. smile

Quote:

I still clearly see the terrified woman who I turned my back on and walked away from that morning 6 weeks ago letting her go her own path.


That was yesterday. Handle everything as a day by day, from your GALing, to emotional balance and including her interactions with you. The pigeon that didn't poop on you yesterday, might or might not poop on you today.

Taking pictures? Got a good rig? Semi-professional or just avid hobby? Develop your own or all computer?



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Jack - thank you for the response relatively free from whacks with lumber. I'll just remove these splinters from my scalp wink

I can't say as I'm trying to "control" her. I've never been able to do that. Buried waaaay back in my earlier threads are some keys to my motivation. I'm a big fan of the story of Don Quixote and have a small sculpture of him on my desk. Ignoring the madness and windmills I regard him as a model of honour, virtue and duty. No matter the cost he was always true to what he believed in and loyal to his Dulcinea. I remember telling this to W about a month after BD2 and we both had tears in our eyes. There's a parallel here because Dulcinea was the daughter of the local farmer and not the picture of beauty that Don Quixote carried in his heart. What I'm trying to do is to be true to the man I am and the honour and duty that I feel bound by and the love I have for a woman who I've always known isn't perfect but whom I adored.

I had been worried about the boxes piled in the front porch being a constant reminder to W that I was "throwing her out". In DB terms I was sending the message that she may have "lost" me. I rearranged them yesterday so that they aren't visible from the street as a constant reminder which was part of the letter to let her know that her stuff was still safe. Since it's been more than a month that it's been there I expect it's not going anywhere soon but again I could be wrong. I have lots of room there and they're not in my way and they help remind "me" that she may not be coming back and that I need to be complete in myself.

Day by day / interactions. The silence from W is deafening especially since I stopped watching her Facebook feed. Her BFF was shocked that she hadn't contacted me. I know that she's traveling her own path and I need to travel mine and I hope I can be forgiven for being terrified that she may think that there are no paths forward for her that lead to me. I will confess that part of the purpose of the letter was to prompt W to reach out to me if she was ready for that. I need to not be waiting by the phone expecting a call because it may not be happening any time soon or perhaps not at all.

I just use the camera on my phone which doesn't do great for macro work but it is surprisingly good. I mostly just take the pictures for my own enjoyment and don't develop them. I browse through them from time to time and enjoy them and will rotate some of the nicer ones through as computer wallpaper. One of my cousins does amazing landscapes and I quite envy her skill. At some point I may perhaps get a bit more serious about this but for now it's just fun to see something neat, try to get the best picture of it I can and then go through them later. Digital photography is a great thing for 5 thumbed amateurs like myself.

W herself actually felt that photography was her hobby but rarely took pictures. Oddly her camera (an older basic digital camera) was one of the confusing things she left behind.


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Andrew, I know I said I wasn't going to post on your threads anymore, so please forgive me. I'll try to say this as gently as I can.

Have you ever considered that your level of worry about your wife might come across to her or to others as you not considering her a full adult, capable of handling her own life--including cleaning up messes that she makes through her poor choices?

And is it possible that you don't actually see her as capable of surviving and thriving on her own?

It's a thought that has come to me again and again over the months you've been posting.

If there is a even a small part of you that answers yes to either of those questions, I'd encourage you to explore that.

And now I'll go back to lurking.


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Rose888 - Thank you. You are exactly correct. From the day we met I've always been the one to rescue W, to fix whatever has gone wrong. I've seen her crash and burn in the past and was the one to clean up those messes while she would let me and in some cases, ask me to do so. From paying her back rent and her credit cards off when we first met, to doing her job for her when she so seriously messed up a customer's financial statements that we were threatened with a lawsuit and many other things over the years both big and small, I've always been there to catch her when she falls. I felt that I was her "rock", her "safe place". I have no clue how it made "her" feel or if it was an issue for her.

I clearly remember a brief conversation we had in June. She was extremely depressed and I said to her "I wish that there was something I could do to help". Her response was "No, it's all on me."

I have made a point of telling her many times over the years that I believe in her and that she is capable of great things even after BD. I do believe this to be true but I have been running around like a kid in the outfield trying to catch her if she falls again.

It's certainly something worth some hard thought. I know we both have some growing to do but never looked at this as a significant issue but now that you've held it up for examination it is. Thank you.

I'll close with this quote from Cadet that certainly resonated with me and talks about the same thing in a different way.
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Yes it is my experience that most MLC'ers are very selfish.
And most LBS's are codependent conflict avoiding enablers.
So it really was a marriage where the two people fit together perfectly.
Until that doesn't work anymore.
Then explosion bomb drop and MLC.


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Quote:
I will probably get whacked with a 2X4 or 20 on.

Are you expecting one? If so, why?
Quote:
I know that I can't fix her but worry a lot that she may think that she's "burned her boats" as far as coming home goes.

Yet you still try imo. Your worry is the result of you trying mind reading and (this is where you are suppose to fill in the blank – why are YOU really worried?)
Quote:
She also I feel wants to be the victim and martyr here and has in the past pushed me to kick her out and to find someone new.

Mindreading. As for wanting to find someone new. Do you think she wanted to have a crisis?
Quote:
I also worry that she's been waiting for "me" to reach out to "her". She also I believe (mind-reading!) wants to not trust me. So - I added a bit on to the already un-necessary letter.

There is the YOU are worried again…
Quote:
I told her that if she wanted to talk about anything that I would be happy to listen.

Do you REALLY think that she does not already know that? I suspect that she does. Why not just TRUST that when and IF SHE wants to talk that she will. Or is as Jack mentioned….you really just have no control.
Quote:
I concluded with "Please know that you can continue to trust me and I work every day to be deserving of that trust."

Ummm…have you read the part on these boards that talks about DETACHMENT? Cause this is not it. Can you see that by suggesting that she should “CONTINUE” to trust you….that you implied that maybe she was okay with NOT TRUSTING you.
“I work everyday to be deserving of that trust”…..
ACTIONS buddy speak much louder than words. As some would say around here….ya cannot talk your way out of HER crisis.
Quote:
A small PS was added with an apology "for being abrupt with you when I was confronted with something that caused me a great deal of fear for you."

I actually think that YOU are the one that is more fearful and that the above statement is an attempt to project that fear on her. Why?
Quote:
I'm giving her her space and distance but reminding her that the path home is still there if she wants it but that the next move needs to be her's.

Honestly…this ^^^ is not space. Why do feel the need to “remind her”, why do you feel the need to let her know the path home is still there? I think I know the answer. Psst…starts with F and ends with an R.
Quote:
She probably already "knows" all of this and perhaps I've set her "back" knowing that she can continue to do whatever she wants.

If you felt she knew all this – then why remind her. Why do you FEEL that YOUR actions or lack of ACTIONS can set her “back”? She is grown women.
Quote:
I still haven't gotten the hang of Minute Rice but haven't starved to death yet - my weight loss continues though.

You’ll get better at the whole cooking thing in time. Just ask Jack who make an interesting Spanish Pork dish with rice and beans using spanish seasoning. Righ Jack &#61514;
Kudos on the weight loss.
Quote:
The sort of things you are interested in though - I'm continuing to reconnect with my own family, trying to improve my focus at work and last weekend I overcame my reluctance to go to a particular nature area because it was one of W's alibi stories for meeting with OM. I had a nice walk there and got some great photos. It feels good to have that part of the world that I enjoy no longer be a "taboo" place for me.

I was acutally looking for something a bit deeper…like what are the things that YOU do not like about Andrew. Not what things Andrew wants to change to get HER back – nope – what do YOU really want to work on.

Quote:
but now that I've done that I feel better knowing that I've done all that I can and the next steps are clearly up to her.

Wrong IMO. 1) You just started and 2) the NEXT STEPS are really up to YOU. I mentioned before….YOU and YOU alone determine when it is time to get off the rollercoaster. That is not be confused with moving on or getting D’ed.

Quote:
I can't say as I'm trying to "control" her. I've never been able to do that.

I would disagree. Replace the word control with manipulate and you did something EXPECTING a response of some sort.

Quote:
I'm a big fan of the story of Don Quixote and have a small sculpture of him on my desk. Ignoring the madness and windmills I regard him as a model of honour, virtue and duty. No matter the cost he was always true to what he believed in and loyal to his Dulcinea. I remember telling this to W about a month after BD2 and we both had tears in our eyes. There's a parallel here because Dulcinea was the daughter of the local farmer and not the picture of beauty that Don Quixote carried in his heart. What I'm trying to do is to be true to the man I am and the honour and duty that I feel bound by and the love I have for a woman who I've always known isn't perfect but whom I adored.

Can you RESPECT her choice and really leave her be to live HER CHOICES – even if you do not agree?
Quote:
In DB terms I was sending the message that she may have "lost" me.

Why would you send this message (see above….honour and duty…)?

Quote:
I know that she's traveling her own path and I need to travel mine and I hope I can be forgiven for being terrified that she may think that there are no paths forward for her that lead to me. I will confess that part of the purpose of the letter was to prompt W to reach out to me if she was ready for that. I need to not be waiting by the phone expecting a call because it may not be happening any time soon or perhaps not at all.

As Cadet would say….Trust the process. Stop trying to CONTROL the sitch. You can’t. Stop trying to manipulate a response from her. Just stop. Take all of this energy and FOCUS on YOU.
I’m logging off for the day but will be check on you tomorrow.

Chin up.


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Andrew,
Unless you have an absolute emergency, do not contact your wife again. If the boxes are still on the porch, she will either come by and pick them up or they will remain there until they rot...unless, of course, you put them in storage somewhere, pay the monthly rental and then give her the key and rental info.

As for leaving the door open for her to return...she already knows that you love her and you would like for her to return to the relationship....no need to continue driving this point home.

We are all fixers here and we are always attempting to fix thems for them. It took me a while to understand that I couldn't fix my xh's problems...he had to do it himself. You will get this message loud and clear as you walk your own path. You didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. The only person you can fix and/or control is yourself.

The best thing you can do is leave her alone, give her the much needed time and space to figure things out. The more you try to hammer things home to her, the more she's going to pull away.

Keep the focus on you for now. I know it's difficult to do, but her journey is her own to take and yes, that includes making mistakes along the way. How else will she learn how to grow up and accept responsibilities if "dad" is always there to take care of things for her? Besides, the contact you make w/her is a distraction for her and one that continues to keep her focused on you...she needs to be focusing on herself for a good while. Your journey is also one of self discovery. Use the gift of time (as Cadet says) wisely. This is your opportunity to do the things you've put off doing for years and yes, even learn some new things not only hobbies but about yourself as well.

If she contacts you, be civil, i.e., just as you would to a long lost cousin. Keep your contact to a minimum unless it's an absolute emergency and that means not making up excuses to contact her. She's not stupid, she knows exactly what you are doing.

So, what's on your agenda for the week besides work?


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Homework:

Learn to cook ONE meal REALLY well.

Believe me you'll shock the [censored] out of her one day, or impress someone else. You already have most of this in your house. Or should.

1/4 cup all-purpose flour for coating
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon dried oregano
4 skinless, boneless chicken breast halves - pounded 1/4 inch thick VERY IMPORTANT
4 tablespoons butter
4 tablespoons olive oil
1 cup sliced mushrooms
1/2 cup Marsala wine (turns out the cooking marsala tastes the best)

In a shallow dish or bowl, mix together the flour, salt, pepper and oregano. Coat chicken pieces in flour mixture.

In a large skillet, melt butter in oil over medium heat. Place chicken in the pan, and lightly brown. Turn over chicken pieces, and add mushrooms. Pour in wine and sherry. Cover skillet; simmer chicken 10 minutes, turning once, until no longer pink and juices run clear.

Let me know how this turns out. This recipe has over 3,000 reviews and a rating of 4.5 stars. So its a damn good recipe and very very easy to make.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

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Oh crap... forgot to add to the ingredients:

1/4 cup cooking sherry.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

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Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Why do feel the need to “remind her”, why do you feel the need to let her know the path home is still there? I think I know the answer. Psst…starts with F and ends with an R.

You know - it took me two tries to get the answer to that. And it's bang on correct.


Originally Posted By: job
Andrew,
Unless you have an absolute emergency, do not contact your wife again.
<snip>
We are all fixers here and we are always attempting to fix thems for them. It took me a while to understand that I couldn't fix my xh's problems...he had to do it himself. You will get this message loud and clear as you walk your own path. You didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. The only person you can fix and/or control is yourself.
<snip>
So, what's on your agenda for the week besides work?

Message received. This is the first communication of this sort that I've sent W in the almost 6 weeks since she left and yes, I need to not do this again. I still feel better for having done it though even though it may have done "harm" and pushed her away I've now gotten it off my chest and can look myself in the mirror and say that I've done everything possible - even if it was perhaps misguided.

Work is going to be a priority for me. It's been languishing since BD1 and I've not been feeling good about that. It's time to get my pride back, focus on the details that can make this company successful again and make a difference. I also need to stop being a "sad sack" around here. A lot of people are very concerned about me.

On the other hand I've reached out to the place I interviewed at at the start of the month. They still haven't made a decision so a gentle nudge has been given.

Wednesday I need to get my ironing done that I didn't do yesterday. I find that mindless mechanical tasks that require attention to detail calm me except since move-out where I'm too jumpy to focus. I need to find that calm again. I'll also do some preparation for the canoe trip this coming weekend. I haven't had my canoe out in about 6 years so finding all the bits and bobs and setting up the car will be necessary.

Thank you again eric and job for your time and your thoughtful comments. I know I have a long way to go on my own journey and I appreciate having people like yourselves to act as guides. The whacks with the wiffle bats were well aimed and hit their targets well.


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I want to hear how you do w/the recipe that Jack provided. Don't be afraid to try new recipes and you might be pleasantly surprised at how well you do in the cooking arena.


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Ok Andrew,

I know you said to Jack that you know you can't control your W.

Knowing it and trying to do it are two different things.

While your well intended letter was heartfelt, it was controlling.

Not directly but indirectly because you chose to insert yourself into her world even though she hasn't invited you there. Because you don't want her to forget about you.

Believe me, she hasn't.

Control is a complex issue.

I want you to think about something...

You repeatedly have said now that you sent her that communication you can move forward because you know you have at least put it out there...

Until the next time that you feel she may need the reminder again or have one more thing that you want her to know...

This is actually a dangerous pattern for you to begin for you. It won't allow you to truely detatch...

I rarely post links...

This song was released in 2001. For some reason, it seemed to always be playing on the radio in 2007-2008, my DB days...we get messages however we will hear them...

Listen to the words...really listen to the story...

For me, initially it was a very sad/happy song of reconciliation. As I thought about the lyrics and the story...it became a perfect example of detatchment, loving from afar, living life, and moving forward while keeping the door open. All these years later, it is a lesson in faith and reminder of where I came from.

It may help you a bit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb1DTsxBOfE

Something else I want to add...

When I was in the trenches...a lot of people who were here (especially the men) seemed to think that they had to stop loving their spouse if the relationship was over. That isn't the case. When someone dies do you stop loving them? It just becomes a private feeling that you keep in your heart.


Cat



"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
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Cat,

That is an excellent song and a good example of how the man continued moving forward, but left the door open. It was and still is my all time favorite of Blake Shelton's.


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job - I will give Jack's recipe a try at some point. I'm actually a fairly good cook mainly in stews and casseroles which suit my single life fairly well. I'm currently working though the big freezer to eat down the food I have so it's going to be pork chops and hamburgers for a while. Around BD1 I started having to rely on myself for meals more and more so I've got a fair bit of practice. Even though it was a long time ago I was single for about 6 years before meeting W and managed rather well. I will admit that I need to expand my repertoire.

I just can't get the hang of Minute Rice for some reason. I even tried following the instructions and that didn't help either. People who have followed my sitch may be shocked that I actually read the instructions on something first wink

I make myself a substantial hot breakfast every day and after BD2 my healthy lunch - which is the same as what W used to make for me. I eat the lunch in two parts one right now (before noon) and the other around tea-time. I'm one of those people who can eat pretty much the same thing every day. Given the length of my day when I get home around 7:15 I usually just have a snack. My current calorie count on days that I travel in to work is about 1400 which is why the weight keeps coming off.

I'll take myself out to dinner once a week usually either alone or with a friend and so that leaves 2 "dinners" that I make. It's going to be a "looong" time before I get through the freezer especially once I tackle some of the whole chickens I have down there. S22 and I talked about it and first roasted chicken, then slice for sandwiches and boil the bones and make stew freezing it in individual servings.


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Andrew,

Another chicken dish that might come in handy is chicken pot pie. It's easy to make and it has your chicken and vegetables all rolled up into a pie crust and bake for a bit.

I'm sure that you and your S22 will become great chefs as you travel the path. You've got a lot of food and time to experiment. Well, don't feel bad about Minute Rice...I had issues w/that myself.

No, I'm not shocked that you actually read the instructions. Some people do and others don't, but you don't strike me as the type not to read things over before trying things.

So...enjoy cooking and experimenting. Life is all about experimenting and trying new things.


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Originally Posted By: cat04
Because you don't want her to forget about you.

Believe me, she hasn't.
<snip>
This is actually a dangerous pattern for you to begin for you. It won't allow you to truely detatch...

I rarely post links...

<snip>
For me, initially it was a very sad/happy song of reconciliation. As I thought about the lyrics and the story...it became a perfect example of detatchment, loving from afar, living life, and moving forward while keeping the door open. All these years later, it is a lesson in faith and reminder of where I came from.

It may help you a bit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb1DTsxBOfE

Something else I want to add...

When I was in the trenches...a lot of people who were here (especially the men) seemed to think that they had to stop loving their spouse if the relationship was over. That isn't the case. When someone dies do you stop loving them? It just becomes a private feeling that you keep in your heart.


Cat
Thanks Cat. I'm a country music fan and have gotten weepy listening to that song more than once.

I need to work harder on believing that she hasn't forgotten me. I don't know if you saw this on my Newcomers thread which is a bit more gossipy. It highlights one of my biggest fears. That W will believe herself incapable of redemption.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2700335#Post2700335

Your last point resonates with me and ties to the work my IC is doing with me right now. I certainly do still love my W although I do from time to time have to remind myself of it. It has been over 4 months since BD2 when she withdrew pretty much all affection from me and the real hurting and pain started. The arrogance and contempt she would show me for much of June cannot easily be forgotten. It helps a bit that it ended after BD2.1 when I asked her to reconcile. I know that I can forgive the A and forgive the hurt and betrayal if she comes back and tries to make amends (I know I'll have a lot of work to do too). However if she starts a new life alone or with OM or OM2,3,x etc I worry that all that will be left will be the anger and betrayal. I know she was surprised when I told her on move-out night when we had one of our few talks that I didn't think that we could be civil to each other in a social situation if she didn't come back.

One fact that I pay too much attention to is that the clock is ticking for her. She has to make a choice on where she's going to be living by the end of September when she has to move out of where she is. She may be pushing herself to make a choice by that date (or may not - can't know). I know that when October 1st rolls around that all I can do is to flip over the calendar page. If she chooses OM then I'll file for D and try to move on. I won't stand waiting for her if she has clearly chosen someone else. I will set her and myself "free". If she chooses to be alone then as someone earlier (jack3b I think it was) said that I just need to take it one day at a time.


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Andrew,

We tend to control things for a reason….

Quote:
The arrogance and contempt she would show me for much of June cannot easily be forgotten.

Maybe not forgotten but it can be forgiven. The later being the hardest part.

Quote:
I know that I can forgive the A and forgive the hurt and betrayal if she comes back and tries to make amends (I know I'll have a lot of work to do too).

So YOUR forgiveness is contingent on HER action. It is conditional. So IF she does THIS then I can do THAT. Hmmm….see anything wrong with this point of view? Is that who YOU want to be? Is that how YOU would like someone to treat YOU?

Quote:
However if she starts a new life alone or with OM or OM2,3,x etc I worry that all that will be left will be the anger and betrayal.

Life is really about CHOICES. You can CHOOSE to stay angry and bitter OR you can CHOOSE NOT TO. I noticed you used the word “worry” again. DO you notice how you use it? Can you see what and how this “worry” is driving YOUR CHOICES.

Quote:
I know she was surprised when I told her on move-out night when we had one of our few talks that I didn't think that we could be civil to each other in a social situation if she didn't come back.

Actions speak louder than words. Have you been civil to her since? If so, then honestly, your actions are doing all the talking and that is a good thing.

Quote:
One fact that I pay too much attention to is that the clock is ticking for her. She has to make a choice on where she's going to be living by the end of September when she has to move out of where she is. She may be pushing herself to make a choice by that date (or may not - can't know). I know that when October 1st rolls around that all I can do is to flip over the calendar page. If she chooses OM then I'll file for D and try to move on. I won't stand waiting for her if she has clearly chosen someone else. I will set her and myself "free". If she chooses to be alone then as someone earlier (jack3b I think it was) said that I just need to take it one day at a time.

Far be it from me to tell anyone to file or not. It is a personal decision. That said, what do you really gain by filing? You may have mentioned this in a previous post, so I am sorry if you answered this and I just did not see it.

When I was dealing with my sitch….I felt that “filing” would make me “free”. It will allow me to “heal”. It would fix the issues. I could move on. Deep down inside…I also wanted to “show her”….to tell her that “I was done”…deep down inside I wanted to file to manipulate her into coming back.

What I learned….was that healing and freedom are separate and distinct some times. What I learned was…the best thing I did was to trust the process. To give it my all. I learned to understand WHY I felt the need to control. Why I felt the need to manipulate.
I will leave you with this Andrew…….

Standing for your M is really for YOU – not HER.

God Bless,
Eric


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eric:

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and post.

Yes - I've been civil to her all along. It's something that I've been very proud of that I've treated her with respect and courtesy. From things she's said that if the situation was reversed she would have handled things very differently and in the "classic" manner complete with trashed car and belongings on the lawn. Not sure how she'd feel now but it isn't (likely) going to happen. I "am" feeling very lonely today.

Forgiveness is something that I struggle with. I have given her forgiveness once already about a week after BD2. So much has happened since then that I would have to reach deep to find that on my own without her help. Even though I'm nominally Christian I don't believe that forgiveness is required in all situations. I do know that it frees me and is a gift that I would give to myself but I haven't found it at this point.

I took a minor detour about forgiveness before coming back to the "civil" question. I worry (yes that word again) about how my feelings will change as this comes to a conclusion. It feels like this will never end but I do know that in some way, some day that this chapter will be closed. If it closes in anger with her treating me badly - taking me for everything she can in a settlement, acting with arrogance and contempt then no - I do not see myself being civil to her in the future. We'll have to wait for those pages of the chapter to be written. One thing that I'm trying to stop is scripting out the future.

In my note about filing, right now the only reason I would file would be if she chooses a definite path away from me such as marrying OM. I have no clue what the intentions are there though since other than BD2 when I asked if it was serious between them and she said that it was for him but that she was unsure I know nothing. I would also file if I have moved on.

One of my bigger challenges right now is keeping up the pretense of being married. Having not even taken the first step of publicly stating that I am separated, D is much farther down the road.


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Quote:

I have given her forgiveness once already about a week after BD2.


Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves.

However, forgiveness given without being asked or earned, freely given is a gift seldom appreciated by those we give it too.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

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Andrew

Quote:
I "am" feeling very lonely today.

I am sorry to hear that. The lonely feelings will come….in time they will get better and farther apart. I found that when I was feeling really lonely, that it was my “spirit” telling me that I needed to get out and do something. As hard as it was, especially in the beginning, I did. Going out (aka GAL) helped. Helped me keep my sanity.

Quote:
Forgiveness is something that I struggle with.

And why is that?

Ya know, early on when I going through this wonderful experience we call MLC <insert picture of Eric with a sarcastic smile>, I would spend hours thinking about what my ex was doing TO ME.
DB101 – “Change how you look at things”

When I reframed how I was looking at thing it got much better. Example: My ex wasn’t doing it TO ME, she was doing some to/for herself that impacted me.

When I reframed I realized that I no longer felt like a victim. I can to realized that I was CHOOSING to stay in the sitch. I CHOOSE to STAND – not for her – for me. Yep, a selfish move on my part. I wanted ONE thing, I promised myself ONE thing – DO THE BEST I CAN SO THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I COULD LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND KNOW – I GAVE IT MY ALL. I had never done that before, I had never given it everything I had and I finally acknowledged that 1) I DESERVED IT 2) THAT SHE TOO DESERVED IT.

Change how you look at things and maybe…..forgiveness will become easier.

Quote:
I worry (yes that word again) about how my feelings will change as this comes to a conclusion.

Question: What are the powerball numbers going to be next week?

Another question: What is the temperature going to be in Denver on 9/4/2045?

Before you tell me that I must be a nut…..I’ll explain my point….

DB101 – LIVE IN THE MOMENT. Stop “worrying” about how you are going to feel tomorrow, next week, chit 5 months from now. YOU have no control over it. You have no idea. Ya really don’t.

People are funny….we project…in part, because we want to control. We want certainty. We FEAR what we cannot control. Guess what? Learning to face that fear and ACCEPT that you have no idea how you are going to feel or what is going to happen next week – that is freedom.
Quote:
In my note about filing, right now the only reason I would file would be if she chooses a definite path away from me such as marrying OM.

As Jack mentioned in another post….YOU SAY WHEN THIS IS OVER.

If I told you to marry me and for some reason you did not want to marry me (not sure why, as I am good looking dude. LOL just kidding)….. why would YOU FILE if that is not what YOU want? Allow her to own her choices. If she wants to file, when then go ahead she can.

DO what YOU want to do.

That said, if you need to file to protect yourself….please do so – but own it.

Quote:
One of my bigger challenges right now is keeping up the pretense of being married. Having not even taken the first step of publicly stating that I am separated,

Why is this really a challenge? A simple, “we are working through some things and I would prefer not to talk about it” should suffice. Honestly, it really is no ones freaking business. Learn boundaries man. If YOU do not want to talk about – don’t.


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Andrew,

Quote:

a know, early on when I going through this wonderful experience we call MLC <insert picture of Eric with a sarcastic smile>, I would spend hours thinking about what my ex was doing TO ME.
DB101 – “Change how you look at things”

When I reframed how I was looking at thing it got much better. Example: My ex wasn’t doing it TO ME, she was doing some to/for herself that impacted me.

When I reframed I realized that I no longer felt like a victim. I can to realized that I was CHOOSING to stay in the sitch. I CHOOSE to STAND – not for her – for me. Yep, a selfish move on my part. I wanted ONE thing, I promised myself ONE thing – DO THE BEST I CAN SO THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I COULD LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND KNOW – I GAVE IT MY ALL. I had never done that before, I had never given it everything I had and I finally acknowledged that 1) I DESERVED IT 2) THAT SHE TOO DESERVED IT.


Please re-read that, print it out and put it in your wallet.
Read it often.
We are men, this is what men of value do. This is what of character do. This is what we aspire to.

To stand on that wall, no matter what comes, and fight for what we value, to spit in the eye of anything that comes between us and our goal.

We are men, and we don't run.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

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Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
We are men, and we don't run.

Thanks eric and Jack. That last line means the most to me and describes the key reason I have most days for why I'm standing. I don't know if you recall my earlier post where I mentioned my hero Don Quixote who does what he thinks is the right thing even when the rest of the world considers him mad. It took me about 3 years to read the two volumes of his histories (mainly only read on vacation) and I don't recommend it to anyone who is not patient but it reinforced my beliefs in duty, honour and pride. Some days I have no idea at all why I'm putting myself through this. One good thing I believe is that I recognized a long time ago that this is a choice "I" made even if that choice was to let W control the agenda. The tools I have at my disposal that could affect anything are far to blunt to be used.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

Quote:
One of my bigger challenges right now is keeping up the pretense of being married. Having not even taken the first step of publicly stating that I am separated,

Why is this really a challenge? A simple, “we are working through some things and I would prefer not to talk about it” should suffice. Honestly, it really is no ones freaking business. Learn boundaries man. If YOU do not want to talk about – don’t.

The problem for me is that I "DO" desperately want to talk about it. But I "know" that as long as W is in hiding that me making any announcements about our status would be a very bad thing. I could (mind reading!) foresee that she would treat that as me trying to manipulate her and force her to make a choice even though it would in reality be all about me. I need to continue to be patient and let HER work through her own thoughts and issues without me adding on any further complications. I feel like I'm living a lie. Those (very) few people that I've talked to in the village (all 4 of them) know that we've split and that I'm devastated and nothing more. Even though I want to I know that reaching out to those friends of W's that she is still in contact with or her family would be a horrible idea. I still feel good about the email I sent her on Monday though where I reminded her that there is a path home if she chooses to take it. I also know that now that I've stated that that I need to go back to being silent no matter how much I want to reach out to her.

Minor update.

Today started off fairly well but for some reason through the day I'm just getting a "feeling" in the pit of my stomach that something's not right / I'm being watched. Yesterday I was also thinking of W's parents, both of whom are in poor health and what the "right" thing to do would be if something happened there. Probably the "right" answer is to express sympathy to her and offer to be there at the funeral if she wishes it. I believe that I am in the instructions as a pall-bearer. That's how I handled her nephew's wedding at the end of June where I stayed home and even though I told her I was upset and offended at her not including me in the RSVP that I wouldn't make a fuss and spoil their day. Meanwhile I'll just add a little prayer for them to continue with as good of health as they can.

Still complete silence from W. I was thinking to myself as I walked into work this morning that it was now September. BD1 was in March. There has been NO movement by W in any direction since 21-Jul when she moved out of our home. Realistically there's been no movement since the A started. She's just been circling around as far as I can tell not able to make any choices or decisions (mind reading!). There may not "be" any movement any time soon. Even today I've had to suppress the urge a few times to do things that would catch her attention or to lurk at her. She has replied to my texts about admin type things with a "thanks" but those are extremely rare as most things I just deal with. She has full visibility into our banking and our books and I know she at least looks at the books regularly (there's an audit file). She doesn't add any of her own transactions so the books are slowly going out of whack but that's not an issue worth pressing on.

I keep reading about others here who regularly hear from their W - mostly bile and spew and feel some envy for them. For me - the silence from 3 blocks away is deafening and maddening. I need to find a way to stop listening to it. W said she can only stay where she is until the end of September. I alternate between watching the calendar thinking that "any day now she'll make a choice" and thinking that she's in so deep that even then she won't be able to choose. Once September closes down then there will be a direction of some sort I hope but if not then the calendar page flips to October. Nothing is to be gained for "us" if I push on this closed box in any fashion. I just have to keep reminding myself of that.


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Quote:

I keep reading about others here who regularly hear from their W - mostly bile and spew and feel some envy for them. For me - the silence from 3 blocks away is deafening and maddening.


And other envy you for the silence.

Shoes are funny things when they are other peoples.

Quote:

There has been NO movement by W in any direction since 21-Jul when she moved out of our home


A little over a month, not a really long time.

Quote:

She doesn't add any of her own transactions so the books are slowly going out of whack but that's not an issue worth pressing on.


Debateable. As this isn't an R talk, asking her to keep up the upkeep on the finances for her transactions is not a horrible idea.

Asking her if she loves you is...asking her to log her money in the joint account is not.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

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Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

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I agree about the finances. You don't want to them to get messed up.

The other option, which would actually protect you if she did decide to go all batchit crazy...

Open your own account and handle everything from there.



"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
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cat04 / Jack_Three_Beans

I'm willing to be contradicted but I'm not too worried about the finances. Certainly not enough to cause W any stress. Partly on the advice of my lawyer I've left W with full access to the banking and our books. I'm reasonably (mind reading!) sure that she's watching everything I do like a hawk out of paranoia. While I have everything in place (and she knows) to run things out of my own account, I suspect that she does as well. We're like two dogs staring at each other over a bone that neither of us wants. To me, it's just money and not that important. The worst hurt she could do could be covered by a quick personal loan and I have alarms set on our accounts. No clue if she does or not herself but I've seen evidence of her checking our books shortly after I would do car repairs etc. She is very smart.

Perhaps I should have said "books" not "finances" which is a piece of software intended to help people budget better. In it we forecast out 1 month's expenses and income. She stopped updating any transactions from her personal account a couple of months before move-out. She had blocked my online access to her account about a month before that. I chose to not take notice. A few weeks before she moved out she made a point of announcing to me that she had everything up to date which I didn't really believe but again didn't make a fuss about checking and just thanked her.

In our budget I've left everything in place as if she's going to be using our joint accounts and then a couple of weeks after she doesn't do the transactions that are in the budget I just move the transactions to be under her personal account so that the account balance I see on our joint account isn't too far skewed.

W has historically been very bad about keeping our books up to date and has always been very protective and secretive about "her stuff". Pushing her to document her spending for her independent life would not be welcome at all I'm sure. She was raised to be very secretive about money and only really overcame that in recent years after we almost went bankrupt. She was very proud of how we worked together to rebuild our finances and credit and has bragged to many people about how we did it. She would even pull out the budgeting app we use and show people how it works.

Part of my "lighthouse" strategy is to continue to be reliable and open and worthy of trust despite her paranoia in this and a number of other things. Going back to a post I think by Jack on this thread there are things that she (mind reading) "wants" to believe about me and that she "wants" me to do "bad" things but I don't. That is in part why my letter got sent on Monday. The stack of boxes and changing our NetFlix account were maybe too big of a blow to trust and I wanted to reassure her. Being a "lighthouse" is relatively easy for because I've always been the honest, reliable safe harbour for our family.


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Hey Andrew,

STOP Mindreading

Deja de leer la mente (that is stop mind reading in spanish)

Arrêter lecture de l'esprit (in French)

Stopp Gedankenlesen (in German)

Léamh aigne Stop (in Irish)


Stopptankeläsning (Sweedish)

Are you getting my subtle hint?


Quote:
The problem for me is that I "DO" desperately want to talk about it.

Why?
Quote:
I feel like I'm living a lie.

Is this ^^^ the reason? What do you really gain by telling people? Support? Chit that is what we are here for. Be honest, what is your reason for wanting to tell people?

Quote:
I'm willing to be contradicted but I'm not too worried about the finances

That is what a ton of people I know said, then they ended up getting screwed. Ask yourself this, if you guys were still in the same house as a couple and she began spending up a storm, which was beginning to impact your savings, retirement, bills, etc. What would you do?

Protecting yourself is NOT a bad thing. Just sayin…

Quote:
She is very smart.

Remember these ^^^ words of yours.

Apply them when you are about to do, say or email something. She knows you better than you think. She will pick up on the subtle hints, the subtle guilt trips, the subtle manipulation. Chances are she may also use them against you. So believe it or not – the No Contact may be a very good thing.
As for the finances, here is what I would say, in the US most expenses that a married couple accrue is the responsibility of BOTH parties. If she is bad with money or can spend, you may be looking at assume debt that may not be yours. Find out what the laws are in your town/state and please protect yourself.
Quote:
Going back to a post I think by Jack on this thread there are things that she (mind reading) "wants" to believe about me and that she "wants" me to do "bad" things but I don't.

1) Believe it or NOT YOU have NO say in what you thinks or says.
2) She will believe what she wants to believe.

Chew on this old saying for a bit…….
What someone else thinks about you is really none of your business.

What I see in your posts is this feeling that what YOU do or do not DO is going to DRIVE what she does. In some way it will in others it will not.

Being just and fair is very different that being scared.

You matter Andrew – don’t forget that.


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Originally Posted By: ericmsant2
Hey Andrew,

STOP Mindreading

Deja de leer la mente (that is stop mind reading in spanish)

Arrêter lecture de l'esprit (in French)

Stopp Gedankenlesen (in German)

Léamh aigne Stop (in Irish)


Stopptankeläsning (Sweedish)



NOW you're being a show-off, Eric! smirk

Sorry Andrew....couldn't resist. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

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Andrew,

Come here to vent, talk and seek out advice and pearls of wisdom. It's a safe environment and the less you talk to others about the situation, the better.

It's time to start a new thread.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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