Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
And Job has been here 17 years and her ex is also still in crisis.


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
A
AndrewP Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
One of the things that I hope to learn more about here is how to deal more effectively with W's MLC if she ever comes back. I think I need to make sure for myself that there is a clear separation between the MLC and the A which is just a byproduct / symptom of that.

One reason that I'm here is from what I've read even if W comes back next week (highly unlikely) she may "cycle" and have another A or engage in other behaviours at any time.

Cadet / Jack - is that an appropriate statement?


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,687
Likes: 236
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,687
Likes: 236
Originally Posted By: AndrewP
One reason that I'm here is from what I've read even if W comes back next week (highly unlikely) she may "cycle" and have another A or engage in other behaviours at any time.

Cadet / Jack - is that an appropriate statement?




I'm not Cadet or Jack, but I will take a spin on your bike...

Yes, it is entirely possible that she could potentially cycle for a long time.

MLC isn't a one and done thing. Cycles do not move fluidly and do not go as easy as stage 1, stage 2, etc..

Stages can jump around and fester for years....

There are many stories her about the MLCer coming home, and things are great for a while, and then they cycle back through, and it is Deja-Vu, all over again...

Raine ...

Courageous Wife...


Just to name a couple...

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 78
I agree with Mach1 and a few other things he(Mach) taught me was that you need to think about being an LBS as a learning session for reconciliation.

If you do not learn your lessons now then YOU will not be able to reconcile because YOU will not be ready.

The MLC'er that returns is very broken and needs to be lead the right way through the end of the crisis.
What does that mean?
It means that we still need to stay Detached and let them have their crisis on their own even though they are trying to return.

I also think what you are describing is what is otherwise known as a touch and go.
Those touch and goes are the basis for return.
The longer and more often they occur the better chance for
a reconciliation.


Me-70, D37,S36
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
job Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
I agree w/the posters on what they've posted about the touch and go scenarios. I would like to add that even though they may return home, they will still have approximately 18-24 months settling down back into their own skin. This is the hardest part for us because we begin to look for them to be normal and start expecting things to get back to the way it use to be. It won't happen that way. Why? Because we both will have changed and it's a brand new relationship and needs to be treated that way.

Also, we have had a few return home (too soon) and haven't completed their necessary work to heal. They return, continue to have issues and act out and then eventually, they are back out the door and generally the crisis becomes a bit worse the second time around.

So, the best thing to do is leave them alone, allow them the time they need to complete their crisis and live your life to the fullest. There is no harm in leaving the door ajar, if and when they wake up. If they want to reconcile, they will do everything they humanly can to prove that they want the relationship right down to agreeing to be transparent in all the things that they do, i.e., emails, phone records, etc. It's up to them to prove to you that they want you back, i.e., in other words they need to earn your trust. Ultimately, the decision will be yours if you decide to reconcile or move forward...but that's a good ways down the road.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
J
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
J
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
Quote:

One of the things that I hope to learn more about here is how to deal more effectively with W's MLC if she ever comes back. I think I need to make sure for myself that there is a clear separation between the MLC and the A which is just a byproduct / symptom of that.

One reason that I'm here is from what I've read even if W comes back next week (highly unlikely) she may "cycle" and have another A or engage in other behaviours at any time.


That is a very wise statement Andrew.

When my wife came back she was very fragile and it was NOT easy, she wasn't completely finished with her MLC.

If you wife came back or does in the next few weeks I would be very skeptical and keep DBing and protect myself emotionally. Sadly MLC is "usually" a long process. Be wary of quick fixes.



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
A
AndrewP Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
Originally Posted By: job
So, the best thing to do is leave them alone, allow them the time they need to complete their crisis and live your life to the fullest. There is no harm in leaving the door ajar, if and when they wake up. If they want to reconcile, they will do everything they humanly can to prove that they want the relationship right down to agreeing to be transparent in all the things that they do, i.e., emails, phone records, etc. It's up to them to prove to you that they want you back, i.e., in other words they need to earn your trust. Ultimately, the decision will be yours if you decide to reconcile or move forward...but that's a good ways down the road.

Thank you so much to everyone who responded.

The door is certainly ajar and I believe she is keeping an eye on me and presumably that door for whatever reason I can't say.

I started typing a big novel about my confusion and all of the unanswered questions I have that are perhaps unanswerable. I wish that there was some way that I could talk to "someone" who knows all about these situations, go through the histories, ask my questions and have them pat my hand and go "there there - here's the script that she's following that leads back to you". But just like wishing for a pony earlier in this thread I need to stop wishing and keep doing for myself.

One of my absolute favourite quotes even before this is from the author Terry Pratchett who put these words into one of his character's mouth.
"If you trust in yourself. . .and believe in your dreams. . .and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
job Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
Andrew,
Ask your questions here. That is what the forum is for. No question is stupid or silly. You won't know unless you ask. Now, we may not have all of the answers, but I bet we may have 90% of them. LOL!

BTW, yes, your w is watching you. She's watching to see if the changes you are making are real and permanent. You don't have to tell her you love her, she knows that. You don't have to tell her that you are leaving the door ajar. She will sense it as she walks her life's path.

You will get sick and tired of us saying "keep the focus on you, dig deeper for patience, leave her alone and give her space, you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her, and most of all continue to move forward". I am very well known for reminding posters to keep the focus on themselves and I have plenty of shovels in stock for digging for patience.

So, make a list of your questions and don't be afraid to ask them. We will be more than happy to try to answer them to the best of our ability.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
J
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
J
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,646
One of my favorite quotes:

"We are what we do, when it matters the most."

Nothing is stopping you from going through those histories around here.

As for the script....its almost standardized. We all had/have unique situations that sort of all sound alike. The difference is the ending.

Would you walk through hell for your wife?

Would you walk through hell for you wife even if you didn't know she would be waiting for you on the other side?

The best anyone here can do is say "there, there," this is the script where you come out of this better not bitter. : ) I forget which dork uses that as his signature line. ; )



Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
A
AndrewP Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63

Well - you asked so here goes. AndrewP's list of things that confuse the crap out of him that probably don't really matter. These are based largely on mind-reading, speculation, and a lot of obsessively close observation and research by someone who is good at that sort of thing - but is still wrong a bunch of the time.

There is one piece of perhaps important information that's not in my summary at the beginning but it might be significant. It is very much mind reading and is based on W's repeated mention to me that she never intended to cheat and that it was an "accident". My understanding is that OM (who was chasing her) was a kind and supportive "safe" friend who W opened up to after she "decided" she was done with our MR last summer and was very depressed. I believe that she truly fell in love with him early in the new year. Up until then she was a kind and loving wife and other than thinking for several years she was depressed in part because of peri-menopause I had no clue of any problems. When the A started she became much more depressed and distant but still tried hard to be loving even after BD1 when she said she was leaving until BD2 when I discovered the A and released the alien within her. OM is in no way an exciting boy toy with a lavish lifestyle. Although he is somewhat better off than we are it's not by a large order of magnitude so she's not after him for excitement or money. W on the other hand while I love her dearly and think she's beautiful is in reality a short, fat, middle-aged woman with health and growing mobility problems who has no real interest in sex. I'm sure things were torrid at the beginning just like they were for us 28 years ago but W can't sustain that especially given her pain issues.

There was also a BD2.1 on June 23rd when I gave her a letter that I had sweated blood into where I talked about the love and respect that I had for her and asked her to reconcile. It also said that if she refused to reconcile that I would seek legal advice on ending our M. Prior to getting that letter she was cocky, confident and arrogant. From that date on she seemed subdued, scared and very depressed.

Question time. What they mostly boil down to is that W appears to be acting remorseful and guilty and terrified and not at all committed to OM or leaving. To me it seems much more extreme than just callously keeping me as a Plan B that she hasn't cut me free.

Please be gentle and yes I know that I shouldn't focus on these things and I really try not to - but you "did" ask.

- After W told me she was leaving and both before and after I discovered her A I gave her multiple opportunities to leave even suggesting that we cancel an insurance policy on me that would not be necessary if she left to provide her with seed money. She was horrified and pushed aggressively against that or any other step I suggested that was irreversible. On the other hand even after BD1 she was talking about bringing tradesmen in to work on the house and getting our wills updated (which I put a stop to because she had said she was leaving).

- Why did W play the martyr moving herself out of the MBR after BD2 making her life complex and painful when she could have done whatever she wanted and easily manipulated me. She knows she can do this and has before to get what she wants. This follows none of the scripts as I understand them. A trivial example of martyrdom was her toothbrush. We have 2 bathrooms one in the MBR and one downstairs. Every evening for 4 months W would timidly knock on the MBR door and ask if it was OK for her to go through to clean her teeth. She would then (generally) walk through looking straight ahead, do her thing and then leave either looking straight ahead or away from me. Usually she would politely return my good-nights. On rare occasions she would engage me in conversation and be cheerful but that was maybe just an "up" day.

- W never showed any anger at me or blamed me for anything even when she was at a phase where she was so very proud and scornful. Even when she really tried she could come up with no answer on why she wanted out of the marriage other than that she didn't want us to end up like her parents, old and bickering at each other all the time. Again - not to any script out there that I've seen. 27 years is a lot of history that could be re-written.

- After BD2 when the A was discovered W became progressively more honest and transparent with me with regards to her movements etc around any of the times that I could have expected to see her even WRT to OM which she knew caused me great pain and seemed to pain her too.

- Why did W wait for months and months before getting a proper meeting with a L and only did so after she moved out? She did initially push me to see one saying that she already had (was free county general advice). My theory on this was she wanted me to push her out. After she left she saw a L (and knew I was ready with D papers) why has nothing come out of that in over a month?

- Now that she's moved out, why is she still keeping our separation quiet? She is I believe still wearing not just her wedding band but also her engagement diamond, eternity band and family ring. I've not had confirmation on that since shortly after she left though. She certainly hasn't for example updated her "relationship status" and when talking to my barber she clearly identified herself as AndrewP's wife - which she would have done pre-BD - when it was completely un-necessary to make that connection.

- Why has she not cut me or my family off from her Facebook account? A couple of mouse-clicks and no more in-laws or husband information showing her what she's leaving behind.

- On the other side why have her relatives who know about the A not cut me off either? Some of them "really" don't like me.

- Not a question but on my side I have asked everyone who knows (and W knows that they know) to act as if everything is normal on Facebook but to leave her alone. I don't want her to feel that we're "throwing her out".

- Up to June 4th she would see OM quite regularly and on that day "something" happened that made her very angry. After that I actually thought the A was over because she never "seemed" to be taking opportunities to be with OM. Why not? It would have been so easy for her to do? She was still seeing him but there were no further overnight visits nor her long "walks" which were her prior cover story.

- Even now that she's moved out originally I was still somewhat monitoring her movements and she seemed to rarely take obvious advantage of chances to be with OM. It's almost as if they're just dating.

- Why is OM - who according to W on BD2 was infatuated with her and very very serious not being more open about the A and introducing her to his kids etc. My mind-reading tells me that this hasn't happened because W in talking about OM's son (who works for the family business delivering to her store) has a definite line between the two (long story about why I believe this). Speculation and mind-reading tells me that she has told him to keep it secret too.

- When W left the house was systematically stripped of things of value (I believe much of that to be her brother's doing) and of stuff that W actually needed. It was done in a great hurry by someone who isn't organized at the best of times. The day after she left she did come back on my suggestion for waffles and the toaster (I don't use them). But she's not come back for anything else. It would be easy - she knows my schedule and I'm not there much of the time. There are things that she's surely felt the lack of as well as important papers she would need for a L and she has now seen that I've packed up a lot of her stuff and put it in the enclosed front porch.

- W told me that she would continue to be part of the family finances and deposit her pay into our joint bank account but hasn't - no big shock there. But she also has "never" spent any money out of that account to support her A activities or set up her new life even though she knows that there are saving set aside for emergencies and vacation that she could use without hurting me at all. The amount of her pocket money that must have gone to pay for gas is staggering.

- Trivial perhaps but a couple of days ago "someone" who could only have been W came to the house and watered the flower beds but didn't go inside. Mind-reading tells me that it was a false start of some sort.

- A bit over a week ago I noticed on Facebook that it appeared that one of W's friends had outed her about OM - she hadn't. I texted W brusquely about this for clarification before I over-reacted and rather than ignoring it, telling me to go to hell etc immediately went into overdrive on damage control. Her response text to me also indicated that she felt that only people that I had told and identified to her knew about the A and no-one else (which is not true). But again it implies that she is keeping a tight lid on the A and OM.

- When we talked and she told me she was moving out she was horrified first that I already had the D papers filled out and even more horrified that they listed adultery as the grounds. She expressed a lot of concern that it would then be public knowledge that she had cheated.

- One theory that I have is that W might feel that if she "runs out the clock" for 1 year that she can get a no-fault divorce and her A would still be a "secret". If that were the case though she would have made the separation public already, been happy when the date I gave her from my L was BD2 and not move-out day and started openly seeing OM.

So - what my mind-reading, over-analysis and speculation boils down to is that W is stuck in something she never intended, not committed to the A, not really committed to leaving and having no clue as to what she should do now. In my heart I yearn to reach out to her and let her know that she can come back and be welcome but that's the wrong thing for me to do so I don't.

Please - and I repeat Please - no 2X4s. I'm going back to not speculating, mind-reading and trying to build my own independent life based on an assumption that W is never coming back. But sometimes I do wish - which is why I'm still "standing".

Thank you.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Page 5 of 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard