Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 2)

[JRuss]

darknes -- very good advice. I really like the idea of flipping things around and counting good days. To your point re the inevitability of death, I actually don't and really never have feared dying or not realized it will happen one day. And no, I definitely don't count the days down towards the one that will be my last. It's actually kind of freaked my wife out over the years that I'm not as afraid of it as she is -- one thing she's said is life is too short to be unhappy. I do agree with that, but I obviously differ from her in thinking that the quickest, best way to happiness isn't divorcing, it's working together to create a new marriage that works for both of us. But I digress.

ForGump -- thanks for needed perspective. You are right. There is so much pain spread out here over so many people that it is helpful to remember that many, many posters here have it so much worse. That's not to say that my sitch won't eventually get worse or ever much worse, but right now, in this moment, it pales in comparison. Thanks again.

doodler and RSG -- thanks for the laughter!

[JRuss]

A bit of gut punch last night.

I was working in the backyard, and W was talking on her cellphone on our screen porch and didn't know I was back there. I overheard her talking to a friend (not sure which one, but one of two I'm sure who act as human echo chambers for her, telling her she's right in all of this, that she deserves to be happy -- I hate their [expletive] guts) and saying something like "I love him, just not the way a wife is supposed to love her husband". She then went on to say something like "things have quieted down, and we're not fighting, but living in the house, sleeping in the same bed, acting like nothing has happened around the kids is weird, and I'm afraid it's giving him false hope". The last thing I heard was "I can see him making lots of little 'tweaks' in his life and am just afraid he's still hoping."

I beat a retreat at that point because I didn't really want to hear any more. Pretty much just confirmation of what I always struggle with: Wanting any of this stuff I'm doing to matter TO HER, but again getting confirmation that it really is only about me and my future life, without her.

It is so discouraging knowing that the hundreds of hours of meditation, IC, getting fit, teaching myself how to listen, completely eradicating my temper from our lives for at least the last year -- addressing and changing everything I've been told was part of the problem -- all just amount to "tweaks" in her mind. I'm two years into trying to improve myself, albeit still only recently really trying DB.

Sorry, really just wallowing in it, and I know that isn't the DB way. This is so [Expletive] up.

[AndrewP]

JRuss - you said an import thing there - "echo chamber". People yell words off mountains that they expect to hear back and it bounces around and reinforces.

I know that I pushed my W without success to go to an IC in large part so that she could talk and be listened to, not just hear back the same "you could do so much better" noise that has been filling her ears for the last year or more. Is your W open to that? Some of these "friends" are poison which is why it is important for BOTH sides to not yell into these echo chambers. I know that I'm guilty of it too.

[albac]

JRuss, I am far from an expert on DBing and I am fighting my own battles trying to keep on going.

Just from your last post about over hearing your wife it really sounds like she has fully given up and is just treading water until she finds out which way she wants to go. Personally if it was me and I don't know I would have the guts to do this but I think you need to get ahead of the carnage and discuss it.

I look at it from the point of view of what is to gain what is to lose. At this point you have heard her say there is no hope and she doesn't want you to have false hope. I guess the question is are you happy to sit around in limbo land knowing what you know and that she could walk out at any point or put the pressure on her to make a decision.

There is massive risk in doing that but to me I ended up where I am being a doormat. I feel it's the same old story people want what they can't have and right now she can have whatever she wants from you if you take that away it might give her something to think about.

As always a motto I follow "Listen to advice but never follow the advice of someone that doesn't have to live with the results"

Good luck

[JRuss]

AndrewP -- she went to IC briefly last year and said it helped her. She kept a "gratitude journal" for a while after that on her IC's suggestion, so I'm pretty sure the IC saw what I see: just a reflex tendency to devalue what she has and pine for something better she imagines (that never has to stand up to the ups and downs of real life, because it's always at least a day away).

I think it would be great if she saw one now but think that it would be smothering/pressuring if I try to suggest it. I also am not sure that the IC wouldn't hear her side of things and tell her (like her friends do) that she "deserves to be happy". My own IC seems to think I should have given up a while ago for my own sanity/mental health, so I'm not even sure it would do much good even if I could somehow suggest it and have her start going.

[AndrewP]

JRuss - one more thing. I've found that there is often an inverse relationship between the amount of effort something takes and how it is perceived. For example I spent 3 years running a 7 figure project and nobody seemed to care. Then I spent part of an afternoon creating a new tool (I'm in IT) for our sales reps and suddenly it's the greatest thing and all of the senior management have contacted me raving about it.

It's probably the same with 180s. The one my W has noticed and commented on the most - cutting out beer and weight loss - was accidental and caused by depression. Perhaps instead of focusing on some of the big 180s which are what "she" has said is "wrong" with you - take a look for a few 180s that are just plain fun and easy that are "right" for you. As MWD writes - do what works.

[JRuss]

albac -- thanks for responding. Yes, it occurs to me that this is all hopeless, at least the part where what I want is a reconciled marriage. Wanting it to work out definitely has me emotionally paralyzed (working on it, though), but the two major things holding me in place are:

1. Wanting (like my wife, or so she says) to give our kids as soft a landing as possible, and

2. Wanting, when/if the D does come, to be able to say I did every single, solitary thing I could do to prevent it and keep my family together. Relatedly, I have made a decision, even if it leads to more aggregate suffering for me, not to take any affirmative actions that make the D happen. By that I mean, I'm not moving out, I'm not filing, and I'm not going to be a doormat and say "yes ma'am" when/if my wife starts wanting to discuss the logistics of splitting. I am going to see a lawyer so I know my rights and what I need to do (or not do) in order not to have worse than 50% custody of our kids, but not with an eye toward making the first move. Right or wrong, that's where I am and pretty much always have been since I first got the BD.

[doodler]

JRuss,

I like what albac said. You're obviously a good husband, and evidently, your own self improvement isn't what she's looking for.

...but I think you need to get ahead of the carnage...

The WW is always far ahead of the LBH. You're the pursuer; what would be a meaningful 180 in your situation?

[JRuss]

albac -- I also meant to add that I do find myself wondering if maybe, since I'm only a month into real DBing (and still not that great at it), and we're still only a month removed from her being on the cusp of moving out (something she'd discussed with these "friends" and gotten their support to do, so I'm sure there's been some follow up, i.e., so what happened that you're still at home?), that maybe she feels this way now, but maybe won't, say, next year (if I keep strong, keep DBing, make myself a man only a fool would leave).

But that's the antithesis of detaching, isn't it? I really, honestly have no idea how to detach. It seems impossible and, really, like a bit of a disconnect around here. No one with hope is "detached". The detached ones -- arguably the ones who read the happiest in most cases -- have given up hope and have moved on. Or so it seems to me.

[albac]

JRuss, good work you sound like you have a plan and I hope it works. I'm glad you aren't going to let her walk all over you.

What I was trying to say in my post was not so much to make any first moves but make sure your intentions are known and you stand up for yourself. I let my wife walk all over me and In turn lost respect and I'm in a bad place now. Be strong and confident and keep doing all you can so you can hold your head high knowing you gave it your best shot.